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Aurel Bacs - The guy responsible for selling THE Paul Newman Daytona
1.5k Plays2 years ago
Aurel has an extensive career in watches and in the last few years, he and his wife Livia have partnered with Phillips Auction House to help run their watch department. Now, Aurel is of course a collector of watches himself, but instead of talking about his collection, we wanted to talk about the psychology of collecting. What makes someone go further than they had planned at an auction? What about the little nuances that makes a collector buy a piece that to the naked eye, may match the other 10 that they currently own? There are a lot of aspects of collecting that I feel a lot of us don’t think about. Aurel has auctioned off some of the most important pieces known in the market. From Paul Newman’s Paul Newman Daytona to many others, he has dealt with collectors and buyers of all kinds.
- Phillips Watch Department: In Association with Bacs & Russo - https://www.phillips.com/watches
- Auction Video of Paul Newman's, Paul Newman Daytona - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0tjSUOvi5k&t=10s
Recorded February 10th, 2021
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Transcript
Introduction and Auction Insight
00:00:00
Speaker
Just literally 10 minutes before the auction, a gentleman walks up to me saying, hey, I've got great news. A friend of mine, a very, very famous billionaire entrepreneur, gave me a buy bid up to $5 million. What's going on, everybody? And welcome to Collectors Gene Radio. I'm your host, Cameron Steiner, and I'm joined by my co-host and brother, Ryan.
00:00:26
Speaker
This is all about diving into the nuances of collecting and ultimately finding out whether or not our guests have what we like to call the collector's gene. That's right. And as always, please subscribe and leave a review for us. It truly helps. We hope you enjoy the pod. Let's go.
Featuring Guest Arailbox
00:00:49
Speaker
So this week we're chatting with Arailbox. Now, if you're not too familiar with the watch world, you may not know who Arailbox is, but I don't want to downplay his importance in our generation at all. So if you haven't done any due diligence, hit pause, go on YouTube and type in the guy's name. Arail has an extensive career in watches and in just the last few years, he and his wife, Livia have partnered with Phillips Auction House to help run their watch department.
00:01:17
Speaker
Now real is of course a collector watches himself but instead of talking about his own collection we wanted to talk about you know the psychology of collecting you know what makes someone go. Further than they had planned at an auction you know what about the little nuances that makes a collector by a piece that to the naked eye may match the other ten that they already currently own.
00:01:39
Speaker
Yeah i mean there are a lot of aspects to collecting that i feel a lot of us don't really think about or talk about so if you pause the show and you went and learned more about a rail when we had mentioned it above. You would have found that a rail has auctioned off some of the most important pieces known to the market for paul newman's paul newman daytona to many others he has dealt with collectors and buyers of all kinds.
00:02:06
Speaker
So this episode, we really try to dig deep here, and it has been one of our most exciting conversations thus far. He has a wealth of knowledge, and I'm sure we are going to have him back at some point. So here it is, Arel Box for Collectors Gene Radio. All right, Arel, thank you so much for joining us today on Collectors Gene Radio. It's an absolute pleasure to have someone of your caliber on here joining us today.
Arail's Journey into Watches
00:02:32
Speaker
Well, it's a huge pleasure to thank you both for having me on your show, I shall say. Could you give us a little bit of background for the guests that might not know you in the watch community and a little background on yourself and how you moved from loving watches to becoming one of the most, what I would say beloved watch auctioneers today? Well, that's already a huge compliment, probably even a burden on my shoulders to hear that. So I'm Swiss. I'm approaching my
00:03:03
Speaker
50th next year, feels like I'm really old. I'm coming from the Swiss German part of Switzerland, not French, not Italian speaking. And watches came in really early in my life, thanks to my dad. My dad was a collector of all things, mechanical especially, including vintage cars, electric trains, steam machines, cameras, radios, whatever he could take apart that had wheels and levers, it was in our household.
00:03:30
Speaker
And as a teenage boy, I started following my dad, two shows, pawnbrokers, flea markets, and somehow gradually slipped into this world. And I have to admit, I became addicted. Then I studied law and business in Switzerland, but spent actually much more time looking out for watches than reading books.
00:03:56
Speaker
And then came a life-changing moment when an auction house was looking for a young specialist to lead their Geneva division or department. I didn't really want the job, but I was encouraged by friends and family, why don't you go and find out if you're actually good enough for that job with all the time you spend so far in your life on watches. So I went and after, I can't even tell you half a dozen of interviews in Geneva, Zurich, London,
00:04:26
Speaker
They called me and said, you've got the job. So I took the job and thought, well, maybe just a couple of months, find out how it is, and then go back and become a successful lawyer. Make plenty of money and buy beautiful watches. Well, some 26 years later, I'm talking to you guys. Now, what I'm doing for a living, I didn't even mention it.
Partnering with Phillips Auction House
00:04:46
Speaker
Together with my wife, Livia, we are
00:04:49
Speaker
both watch nerds and are now in the capacity of consultants working with Philips Auction House in charge of their watch department since 2000 and late 2014. So auctioneers. And how did your company Box and Russo come to partner with Philips?
00:05:12
Speaker
Well that's a really interesting story and it shows how much in our industry, I think in the art world, the collecting world, it's all down to personal relationships. We were together, Livy and I, for 10 years precisely at Christie's, heading their watch department, and after 10 years we felt, you know, we grew the department from below 10 million to 130 million dollars, we achieved what we felt we had to achieve, but the
00:05:42
Speaker
bureaucracy, the corporate world was a little bit on the heavy side for us and we decided to leave thinking that we're starting our tiny little thing, quiet, discreet, more work-life balance and all the stuff and left and were completely off the radar for six months until the newly appointed CEO of Philips called us and said, hey guys, do you want to join Philips and start a watch department?
00:06:12
Speaker
And we're like, sorry, we just left the auction world to have a quiet life. Don't ask us to start all over again. But he happened to be Ed Dolman, whom I knew from my years at Christie's because he was the Christie's CEO before. A fantastic man, an amazing leader, knows his business, really, I would say a friend. And yeah, it was tempting and the challenge was worth accepting.
00:06:42
Speaker
Amazing.
The Psychology of Collecting
00:06:43
Speaker
Yeah, wow. So we're personally really stoked to have you on because you offer such a unique perspective into the psyche of a collector. You have the collector who travels across the world to see auction previews, and you have the phone bidder, and then you have the local collector who shows up. Do you find commonalities between the different types? I think the first thing to
00:07:10
Speaker
Really admit this, there isn't just one type of collector. No matter if you're collecting $500 watches, $50,000 watches, or $5 million watches, there is something that connects all of them. It's the thrill, the hunt, the discovery, the battle, the study, the discussions, the camaraderie, scholarship, and so forth and so forth.
00:07:36
Speaker
I said to some extent regrettably more and more also financial element involved because you cannot deny that many watch collectors have done commercially better with their watch collection than in their day jobs. Which is, it's part of our world and I know that there are some people who have earned over a period of 10 years more with the increase of value of their home than actually at their job. So it's also part of this
00:08:05
Speaker
know, challenge. Now, with that, a new type of spec collector has also joined our market. So they all love the competition, they love the hunt, they love the unexpected around the corner. And I think it's all in all a big family. I mean, we have executives from Wall Street, we have students, and they all are
00:08:36
Speaker
one big family. So thousands of facets and still one sort of core heart value they all share. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think from the standpoint of the different types of collectors that come in, in a way, they're all there for the same reason, whether it's the same item or the same purpose, right?
00:09:02
Speaker
But do you think that collectors usually come into auctions per se and stick to their plans or do the competitive juices just kind of keep going and usually reign supreme at the end of the day? I think those who are really hardcore collectors, they come with the best of intentions to go, let's say, you know, 46 is the estimate. I'll go to 8,000. I calculate the virus premium. I calculate local tax, the whole thing cost me at home.
00:09:33
Speaker
let's say all-inclusive, $11,000. And then I see them completely blow their plans out of the window and go 12, 15, 20, 30. And I always wonder, poor you, can't you just be more disciplined? It's sort of like if you have a chocolate ball in front of you and you say, okay, I have one after dinner, and then you just keep on eating until the whole ball is empty. Sounds like me playing Blackjack. Exactly. It's addictive. And
00:10:03
Speaker
The crazy thing is as an auctioneer i should be knowing better how dangerous auctions can be sometimes when you're too much in love with an object and yet when my wife and i discovered something in another area than watches could be a. Painting a piece of furniture something that we like and we'd like to have a tone we said okay we got two thousand dollars not anymore and sunday three four five next stop stop stop so.
00:10:29
Speaker
I think that these emotions and probably just above collecting is literally only love. I can't think of something that makes people behave more irrationally than collecting.
00:10:44
Speaker
And from what you've seen with collectors and the auction world and whatever you've encountered in your time, what do you think are some of the main reasons that really drive somebody to collect? Whether it's watches or cards or art or wine, what is it exactly? This is one of the most difficult, one of the best questions you can ask and that I think every collector should ask himself and I should ask myself.
00:11:14
Speaker
I think you're literally either born with it or not. It's really like falling in love. And sorry if I sound too philosophical and too romantic now. It's something you cannot control. It's like hormones. I mean, why do some kids collect baseball cards and others find it really boring to walk around with a stack of cards, coins, stamps? It just either makes click or it doesn't. And I don't think you can rationally explain it.
00:11:44
Speaker
What might be in there?
The Thrill of the Auction
00:11:47
Speaker
A bit of nostalgia? Of course, there's a sense of possession. I have it. I mean, how many collectors start a conversation with I have it? I don't find it particularly humble, but the possession aspect is important. Then the hunt. The fact that so many people have very fulfilling
00:12:08
Speaker
lives Monday to Friday, and I mean that from a fatigue point of view, but also the space their job occupies in their minds and hearts, or a family life, and yet burden themselves with another challenge on top of the challenges they already have, and invest considerable amount of energy, time, and means, means that it's stronger than there will. So
00:12:51
Speaker
but yet like my closest friends and my girlfriend who's forced me to move most of my stuff into a storage room knows I love sharing it with people. When I show them a piece that I have or things that I have, I think they understand how much I love it by how excited I am to show it. And I just, it's really unexplainable for me, but it kind of lends to what I wanted to ask you, which is, you know, there are people who amass things, you know, regardless of,
00:13:03
Speaker
In a positive sense, you can call it love, and in a negative sense, you can call it addiction.
00:13:20
Speaker
I'd say taste on particular items. It's like they collect things and they need to have each and every one regardless. And then there's people like myself who amass, but I personally need to connect to the items. Now, does an auction setting though, throw a curve ball to collectors that have either of those philosophies? Well, first of all, let me chime in on something you said that gives you that amazing satisfaction of sharing your passion.
00:13:49
Speaker
share your knowledge, share your collection. I think the sharing part is hugely important. There are, of course, these elusive, very quiet, discreet, maybe even introverted collectors who just have it all for their own and don't share it. But you're right, sharing is important. Yet, why is there such a big community? And I think because many collectors, maybe their wives or husbands or kids or friends don't understand it, don't get it.
00:14:16
Speaker
tell them, stop bothering me with your watch collection or your glass collection, baseball card collection. I've seen it. I've had it. Thank you. Which is why they look out for peers, because there they know this is the most fruitful soil for a dialogue. It's echoing, it's coming back. There's nurturing one the other. So this is why those communities are so important. And this is why despite the
00:14:44
Speaker
Amazing comfort that we at Philips offer clients to bid from their living room, from their couch, from wherever they are with their mobile devices. They still travel thousands of miles to come to Geneva because this is when for half a week or even a week, they can hang out with their buddies and feel they're fully understood. They're no longer seen as freaks. Do we welcome all these facets at Philips? Yes, I think we do.
00:15:14
Speaker
We host panel discussions before auctions. We offer content that is not commercial, where basically we don't sell them anything, whether it's with editorials, with videos, with everything we do, even a reception, if you wish. We bring together collectors. They actually sometimes trade watches during such a reception that we don't get anything out, but it's to celebrate that wonderful hobby. So I hope that collectors think that we are
00:15:44
Speaker
welcoming them and that we offer them food, not just for their stomach, but food for their minds and hearts.
00:15:54
Speaker
I feel like since social media has really had a huge presence in collecting anything, I mean, watches and specifically have gotten a huge social media presence. And it's been said in multiple times that it's less of a show off and it's really become a community.
Competitive Nature of Auctions
00:16:15
Speaker
And of course there are people who show off and teach their own, that's okay. But with auctions,
00:16:21
Speaker
Do you find that collectors are coming in and people are purchasing things to show off their collection after they purchase it? Or do you find that a lot of these collectors are coming in and trying to outbid sometimes these
00:16:36
Speaker
so-called show off collectors, for example, people that are purchasing these items just to say, Hey, I've bought this, check this out. Or do you find that people who are serious collectors are coming in saying things like you don't deserve this and I'm going to make sure that you don't have it? Absolutely. We've seen this. Um, and it's sometimes like a bull fight or two lions. I'm thinking of that. Um, the lion King.
00:17:05
Speaker
where it's about supremacy in the jungle. I have clients who say, I'm not coming to the auction room, so if I get out of it, I'm not getting humiliated. And if I'm competing, they don't know who I am, so they cannot pick a fight with me. And we've seen giants in the auction, well, in the watch collecting world's clash in our sale rooms, where maybe a watch was expected to make a million.
00:17:35
Speaker
And it went to a million and a half, and the last 500,000 were purely, whatever you want to call it, in a distinguished way, a contest of some kind. You can imagine which word would be for the word contest. Who can win the battle? It has happened. Now, is it good for the market? Well, we have that in so many other ways, where in sports,
00:18:04
Speaker
You want to just muscle yourself and win the medal in business. Who is the merger? Who got the deal before another law firm or bank? Well, sometimes for the prettiest girl at school, two teenage boys get into a fight. I think most of us are competitive. The word pride, of course, plays a role. I guess.
00:18:33
Speaker
It's something that we have in our genes and look at the animal world, how many birds sort of show off their feathers and how many elephants make their movements with their ears and threaten the other. It's about to show who's the strongest, the fittest.
00:19:00
Speaker
say large companies can ruin competition with humongous budgets and purchasing important pieces for their museums, like Rolex and such. But does that have a cause and effect? Well, now in the last nearly three decades that I'm doing this, I've seen it all. And yes, there were times when certain companies decided quite
00:19:30
Speaker
abruptly, let's build a museum and let's throw millions into this new project. And there were times when they just came and bulldozed everyone else in the sale room. However, this is something that I would really put into the category past. Today, if I look at 2010 to 2020, the last decade, we probably had over 10
00:20:00
Speaker
Important manufacturers and museums participate in our auctions, securing sometimes quite commercial pedestrian models simply because they were missing it, sometimes historic pieces. And quite interestingly, on 1,200 watches that Philips sold in the last years on average, you probably won't get more than 10 watches that museums buy, meaning 1%.
00:20:31
Speaker
I see lots and lots of museums being outbid by collectors because they have budgets and often shareholders and they cannot just spend money without a proper justification. And I don't think it's different at other auction houses. My best guess is that 1% of the global volume of watches offered and sold at auction are of interest or are being bought by museums.
00:20:59
Speaker
I don't think to conclude that that 1% is harmful to the market, is influencing, in a negative sense, the market, as in, you know, distorting the value of watches, or making it unattractive for collectors to compete. It's just a small group of good competitive bidders
00:21:28
Speaker
amongst thousands. Yeah, makes sense. Archives are important for sure. But I guess when you think about companies having board members and investors and things like that, it's not just free cashflow
Essentials for Successful Collecting
00:21:44
Speaker
all the time. So on the other end of that, for collectors personally, do you think that passion supersedes having the means to collect? Let's be realistic.
00:21:56
Speaker
If you are unfortunate to wake up one morning and you find yourself infected with the virus to collect Impressionist paintings and your bank account shows $1,000 balance, well, then I'm really sorry for you because then you have a problem that you cannot fix. The equation won't work. You won't become an Impressionist art collector. Sorry to blow that dream.
00:22:25
Speaker
Passion is one important element. Knowledge, information, or scholarship is important. And regrettably, the means. And what I see is that it's seldom, really seldom, the richest guy who wins the battle. And I see it more often that the guy who is the most scholar or the most passionate who brings the watch home.
00:22:54
Speaker
after a fierce battle. So if you don't have passion and if you don't have knowledge, all the millions and billions in your bank won't make you a better or more competitive collector because you can't even understand why you're doing.
00:23:09
Speaker
I know Philips tends to do a good job with lot descriptions, but I'm sure you get emails every auction from collectors. Is there reasoning behind some auction houses leaving out key information that collectors inquire about? Doesn't that in a sense create more headaches for the auction house during a busy time? Well, I'm glad to hear that you think Philips is doing a good job. It's been one of our key missions to provide as much
00:23:38
Speaker
text information, but also visual information, as in images or even videos. But not just to get rid of the workload near to the auction, but to simply create a platform of information that is so rich that even those who are living thousands of miles away who cannot touch and inspect the watch personally feel comfortable and properly prepared
00:24:08
Speaker
to bid in comfort on a watch at the other end of the world. Yes, of course, there's also practical reasons because sooner or later you have to provide all that information. I think an auction house that does not provide proper information about its watches is either lazy or ignorant or doesn't understand the market or all of the three. I think it's key to enable a collector to bid in full confidence.
00:24:38
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
Highlight: The Paul Newman Daytona Auction
00:24:40
Speaker
So to piggyback on that, let's go back to 2017 when you had the pleasure of selling the Paul Newman Daytona, arguably one of the most, if not the most talked about auction sale in at least the last decade maybe.
00:25:01
Speaker
Can you describe for us the energy in the room, the intensity, ends up being two foam bitters unknown to each other, to what I can speculate. Can you just give everybody who wasn't there and who hasn't watched maybe the video footage of that, what that was like? With great pleasure, thanks for asking. Yes, it was insane. It was just absolutely unbelievably insane.
00:25:29
Speaker
The build-up, it was our inaugural auction in New York. Philips never staged a watch auction in New York before. So that already was enough of adrenaline and stress to our New York team led by Paul Butros, but also to the international team. The sale room that Philips New York at Park Avenue has is
00:25:53
Speaker
really generous in terms of its size. You can put in easily hundreds of collectors. They're also the same cell rooms that the important art auctions in the past pre-COVID hosted. And somehow we get sort of we start feeling that or we hear actually that already hours before the auction people were queuing outside on Park Avenue to secure a seat. The second thing that was pretty surprising to me
00:26:23
Speaker
We have seen people whom I've never spoken to or known that they were watch collectors come, including Forbes 100 billionaires, priced Hollywood stars, celebrities, as if it was the Met Gala, like if it was the social event of the season in New York.
00:26:51
Speaker
The pressure was huge. Blogs, websites, communities were speculating $2 million, $3 million, $4 million, $5 million. And every blogger, in order to even be heard or read, had to top the previous predictions by at least a million dollars. Whether he was right or wrong didn't matter. So by the time the auction was, the auction day arrived,
00:27:16
Speaker
Numbers were such an inflationary way thrown out that everybody said, well, if it doesn't make 10 million, there's a huge disappointment. Having said that, we, in an inner circle, thought, well, if we do 3, 4, 5, 6 million, we've done a good job. It would already be the world record for Rolex. And just literally 10 minutes before the auction, a gentleman walks up to me saying, hey, I've got great news. A friend of mine,
00:27:44
Speaker
A very, very famous billionaire entrepreneur gave me a buy bid up to five million. Why don't I just say five million as an opening bid? I literally told him, don't you dare doing that. You're going to ruin the auction. Just continue bidding as it's your turn, but don't ruin my party here.
00:28:10
Speaker
Obviously he and I were shocked when the auction started that after my opening $1 million bid, the first telephone bid was $10 million. I didn't quite hear, was it two or 10? There was noise in the room. I had to ask, did you say 2 million? And my colleague on the telephone said, no, sir, $10 million. And that moment I thought I was going to have a heart attack.
00:28:41
Speaker
Because quickly doing the math, $10 million plus the buyer's premium would place it in the opening bid on top of the podium as the world's highest price ever achieved for a watch. So in one hand, I didn't want to ruin the party and wanted to also tell Tiffany, my colleague, specialist Tiffany To, can you please go step by step?
00:29:10
Speaker
But at the same time, I said to myself, if I reject that bid, then the bidding may stop at five. And rightly, James Cox and Nell Newman who sat like just in the second row in front of me would say, why did you throw out millions for our charities out of the window? But at the same time, I look at the Italian gentleman in the first row who had that $5 million bid and literally on his lips, I could see WTF.
00:29:40
Speaker
Like, why do you take her $10 million bid when you threaten me that you would kick me out of the room if I would start with five? So in the end, I sort of made a sweet smile at him, accepted the 10 million. And that moment, the mobile phones shut up, cameras went on, clapping, yelling, screaming, shouting. I mean, literally like if your football or baseball team scored and won the championship. And from that moment on,
00:30:11
Speaker
I realized I was probably going to have a good night. A colleague naturally came very elegantly and quite quickly with $11 million. So I thought, okay, that's not just a one off. There's even more bidders. 12 million, a third telephone 13, and then it continued in 500,000 and then it got a little bit sort of stickier, but we got it all the way to a hammer of 15.5 million. With Boris premium, it would make close to 18 million.
00:30:42
Speaker
I don't know what happened to my blood circulation, my heart, my breathing. Probably if you had these sort of patchy with the cables that the doctors put on your chest and arms when they check you out, I guess I would have just been a flat liner for a minute or two there. The adrenaline was close to sickening, but at the same time, it was most likely the most memorable and best
00:31:10
Speaker
rostrum experience I've ever had Yeah, I mean I can't probably tell you how many times I've we've both watched the video and I get adrenaline just from from watching that and to have the family in the room as well, which is Probably not common most of the times I would assume for something of this caliber Just really special
00:31:38
Speaker
Yeah, there was a bit of pressure, of course, to see them, to smile at them, to get their smile back, their thumbs up, to jiggle between the room, the phones, the consigner in the room, the CEO of Philips was standing there. He told me he never saw anything like it in his life where the opening bid was 10 times the auction estimate. He said in my 35 years in the auction industry, I've never seen anything like it.
00:32:08
Speaker
incredible and very special and memorable moment for you and Livia to be a part of that as well. Huge honor, huge pleasure, huge privilege, and one of the greatest moments also for the team, as a family, and the whole community. That's not the only auctioneering record that you've held before, is that correct?
00:32:33
Speaker
Well, there's plenty of world records I've had in my life. Now, sometimes it's just a world record for a reference of a certain brand. Sometimes it's for the brand as a whole. Yes, I still believe we hold the world record for Omega, for Rolex, pretty much every panicfully preference, especially vintage. It's not what I think
00:33:02
Speaker
is how I define myself. My business card isn't, say, record breaker. I don't even think it's my mission. My mission is to bring the greatest watches to the market and connect them to new owners. And somehow in between, I feel it's my duty to do justice so that the seller can go home and say, great results. I got the money I wanted. Now I can, I don't know, buy myself a
00:33:31
Speaker
bike, a car, a house, whatever. But that the buyer as well says after the auction, you know, it was a tough battle to get it, but I'm really happy that I got it. And when you have both clients, the seller and the buyer saying thank you, somehow that's so much more gratifying than being on another blog with another world record. And it just happens as a nice casualty at the site.
00:33:57
Speaker
You know, I know that you have a love for watches, you know, you collect yourself and as a collector, I'm curious, what are the limitations if you wanted to bid on something in an auction?
Defining a Collector
00:34:10
Speaker
Well, there's two limitations. First, it is normal and totally understandable that I or every other specialist cannot buy in their own auctions. We have a compliance department,
00:34:27
Speaker
And so do all the other leading auction houses as well, where you cannot be on one hand auctioneer, a specialist, bring the watch in, participate in the catalog, and then even participate as a buyer. I think there would be too many conflicting interests at once. What I can do, of course, is go to any watch shop in the world, check out their inventory, and buy it if I
00:34:53
Speaker
One, two, because this is a public offering where I do not have any conflict of interest because the seller is not in any way associated to me. And it's, you know, you guys, you could also go there and buy it. Then, of course, the biggest problem is, yes, the money. How many great watches have I seen? And I'm like, oh my God, this is so great. How much is it? I'm like, oops, sorry.
00:35:20
Speaker
Thanks for the champagne and goodbye. So I'm sure it's not just in watches. How many nice houses would I like to buy? How many nice collector cars? How much could I spend in great art? I am who I am. And my bank account isn't the one of Mr Zuckerberg. And I just live with it. That's okay. Dreams are there to be dreams.
00:35:49
Speaker
Absolutely. And so you mentioned something when we had said that you collect watches. You said you're not sure if you're a collector and what really makes a collector. So before you tell us whether you're a collector or not, can you, from your perspective, tell us what you really think makes a collector because I would assume that there's a lot of people that come to the auctions that
00:36:14
Speaker
Buy watches the same way you do and maybe they consider themselves a collector. Maybe you don't consider yourself a collector. It's absolutely possible. I think you cannot define or identify a collector only by looking at his collection. Now, just because I called it collection, you could just say the group of items of a certain type. I mean, I'll just give you an example. I put five
00:36:44
Speaker
omegas on the table and say, hey guys, do they belong to a collector or not? You say, I don't know. Why not? They're out of five watches. Look at them because I think it's not what he has, but with what type of intellectual, emotional background he's approached a topic. How much time, how much sweat and tears have gone into this?
00:37:14
Speaker
Calling a group of items of a certain type your own doesn't make you a collector. When I think of collectors, I'm thinking of those guys who, I don't know, butterflies, coins, and their mission is to put together a collection where he can say at the end, I have them all. I have every type of butterfly from the Amazonas or I have every type of coin from the Roman Empire, from
00:37:44
Speaker
Julius Caesar too, all the way to whomever, or every V12 Ferrari model that was ever made. That's the classic collector, probably quite intellectual and very structured and very disciplined. Today I see a very new type of collector where you can have one Patek, one Rolex, one Omega, one Vacheron, one Tissot, one Louis Nardin, one Richard Mille,
00:38:12
Speaker
And you say, there's no theme. What is the theme? And the theme is, I love them. I enjoy them. I want them. They make me happy. They stimulate me. They make me feel special. I wanted them and I hunted them. I suffered. I saved. So it's the whole motivation that actually makes him a collector, even though there is actually no theme or discipline whatsoever in bringing a group, a thematic group together.
00:38:43
Speaker
I'm possibly more of the latter. You would look at my watches. You couldn't tell if I'm a Rolex guy or an Omega guy or a Patek guy. There's a bit of everything. Probably more steel than gold. I think steel looks much better on my wrist. Only comfortable watches. Nothing too outrageous as in design to daring. But you couldn't tell what kind of a
00:39:13
Speaker
person is behind this. Now, do I suffer as much as the hardcore theme thematic collectors? Oh, for sure. I get up in the morning. I check my emails. I go on so many different blogs and websites, not because it's my professional duty. I love the topic. I love watches. I'm addicted. I say it openly.
00:39:40
Speaker
So, depending what parameters you apply, you can call me a collector or not. Probably 50 years ago, nobody would have given me that privilege. Today, probably, I'm part of this young, anything goes as long as it makes you a happy generation. So, in terms of your personal addiction, we'll say,
00:40:04
Speaker
Do you prefer modern or vintage? Is something like a Bulgari Octo too daring? It's funny you should mention the Octo. It is actually quite high up on my shopping list. Though it's not too daring, I find it amazing how Bulgari was able to transform and
00:40:33
Speaker
Perfection, a gente design and gente going back to Roarlog and Nautilus is probably the designer of the second half of the 20th century in watches. And I can see 2021 being the year that I'm going to offer myself because I have nobody else who's offering it to me unless you have one of your followers and the guys who listen to it who just want to spoil me. I guess I have to pay for it myself.
00:41:00
Speaker
I can see myself buying an octo. I haven't figured out yet, is it going to be titanium? Is it going to be steel? Is it going to be with or without complication? I think it's a great watch. To answer your question, vintage or modern? I wear both. Today, vintage, yesterday, modern. I alternate all the time. Modern is
00:41:23
Speaker
Often, I agree, and I admit it more practical, more easy, a no-brainer. You don't have to be too concerned, but the amount of emotion a vintage watch can give you. When you touch it, when you feel hand polished surfaces, edges, the winding, everything sounds and feels better and wears better, and those goosebumps are
00:41:51
Speaker
definitely irreplaceable and you can't get them in contemporary watches. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Yeah. All right. Well, let's wrap things up here with what we like to call the collector's gene rundown.
Regrets in Collecting
00:42:04
Speaker
And we're just going to ask you these quick questions. Feel free to answer them personally or about collecting in general or auctions, whatever you feel is best. Ready to go.
00:42:15
Speaker
All right, what's the one that got away? The one that you miss can't get over. This could be for an unnamed collector as well that maybe you've had an interaction with. Oh, I think one of the greatest two problems collectors have are those items they sold too early that they felt in a certain moment, maybe tempted by a nice offer and regretted it ever since. Or those items they could have bought
00:42:44
Speaker
and didn't have the instinct or the vision or the courage to buy. I know both of these feelings too well. I was never sorry for having bought something and regretted the purchase, but for having parted or not bought something. My earliest recollection of such a regret goes back to when I was a teenager, I had a absolutely mind blowing, mind blowing early omega C master.
00:43:14
Speaker
nothing like, not like a museum watch in yellow gold, quite unusual. And I remember I had a black honeycomb or engine turned dial. And I found that watch in a flea market, didn't pay much. And one day a rather ruthless and obviously wealthier man than I was as a teenager, clearly, made me an offer I couldn't refuse
00:43:43
Speaker
because it would suddenly put me into the league where I could buy myself a bike. I could go and take out all my friends for ice cream as much as they wanted. The amount of money seduced me and for now 35 years I regret that watch and I haven't seen it since. Wow. Great, great story. Unfortunate but a great story to share for sure. Yeah, that's one of the best ones you got away that I've heard yet.
00:44:10
Speaker
My advice to collectors, never let the money blind you. Yeah, I've been there too for sure. I let go of a Omega 32T-RG with an incredible inscription on the back from a family to a doctor and I don't know what the doctor did to deserve that watch but at the time I wanted something else that caught my eye and definitely shouldn't have sold it but
00:44:40
Speaker
Luckily, once in a blue moon, they still come around. A great Omega chronometer with the RG is one of the most beautiful watches in the world. So I can just imagine your pain in your heart. Exactly. So for now, I'm just going to keep buying stuff to take my mind off of it. Keep the lust going. Yeah, he's sweating. I can look at him right now. He's sweating, just talking about. So what about the on deck circle?
00:45:06
Speaker
I know you spoke about the octo, but what after that for you, or even what collector should be on the lookout for, like the next thing? In a perfect world, I wouldn't have to answer that question. Why? I don't want to influence anyone. I don't want people to say, I bought an octo because R. L. Bach said so. Imagine you would say, what kind of a spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend should I look out? Well, six foot tall, blonde,
00:45:34
Speaker
What no go after your own love and whether he or she is tall or shorter. Who cares so go after what you like and what makes you happy. If the question is rephrased what is currently undervalued and for the one who does need to think of you know savings and college fund of their kids. I would continue buying zenith early zenith especially el primero's.
00:46:03
Speaker
I would buy IWCs, a brand that I've been growing up when I was a teenager, Asher 1000 and Zurich are just 50 or so miles away. The engineer line from the 50s and 60s, the aqua timers, I think they're still undervalued. They're still great omegas, especially like the Seamaster, the constellations and the chronometers to be bought. There's plenty of watches in the
00:46:29
Speaker
low to mid thousands that are absolutely iconic 20th century designs and in my view deserve more attention. In terms of my question for the IWC engineers, the 40 millimeter models have gone up in value in my opinion quite a bit and obviously I think there's still room, but what do you think about the 34 millimeter models that are automatic still?
00:46:59
Speaker
Yeah, I mean the first engineer model I believe was the reference 666. No nonsense design from the 50s with the peloton designed in-house automatic movement. I think you can pick up a very nice example in five and seven thousand dollars. It was a better watch back then comparing it to the 3417 Amagnetic by Patek Philippe. That was manual wind.
00:47:24
Speaker
Of course, Patek Philippe, great name, I completely understand, and to finish on the movement. But a good magnetic is now way north of a hundred thousand dollars. And I think the RWC gives you nearly as much pleasure on the wrist, the 666, and then I think the successor was the 866, a little chunkier, and you can still get them for very good money, a fraction of what a comparable anti-magnetic Patek would have, would cost you today from the same period.
00:47:55
Speaker
Definitely. So to bounce off that, what's the unobtainable for you? The one you can have, maybe it's too expensive or in a museum or a private collection? I mean, for any watch aficionado, a visit to the Patek Philippe Museum is pretty much the most masochist treat you can do yourself. You will see pocket wristwatches,
00:48:21
Speaker
And actually quite many of them I've had the pleasure of handling and selling to the museum in the last 25 years. The Briggs Cunningham 1526 is one of the most beautiful paddocks ever made, totally understated, one-off made for him, the great sportsman and collector. There's obviously the Graves watches. So the Panic Museum and also, of course, the Audemars Piguet Museum, the Piguet Museum, museums are
00:48:49
Speaker
Pleasure and pain at the same time for a collector. Too expensive? Well, actually often that goes hand in hand. The unobtainable is pleasure, inspiration and suffering and admiration at the same time. Very weird mix of feelings.
00:49:11
Speaker
Yeah, I agree for sure. I think I'm interested to hear this from you because the addiction to watches, the page one rewrite, if you could collect one thing, like turn back time and start collecting something, what would it be? Well, I can still do it today. By the way, I've always, my collecting taste and my focus in collecting has always shifted.
00:49:41
Speaker
If you would see what I'm buying today, whether it's in art or in design or in watches, and you would have told me that 10 or 20 years ago that this is going to be my future, I would have told you, get out of here. This is not me. This is so not me. How can that be? So, of course, I can say what I regret not having bought quantities of, well, for commercial reasons.
00:50:10
Speaker
I guess if I had put all my money together, all my money 25 years ago, I could have afforded a basket for a couple of $10,000. Well, forget about it. That train is gone. I could have bought tons of Paul Newman's at $2,500 25 years ago. Tons. Now, I only need one. I don't need a box of 50. From a commercial perspective,
00:50:39
Speaker
It would have been equally good to buy a box of Paul Newman's. Of course, Bitcoins, Tesla, Amazon, how many shares did I not buy when friends told me you should? But that's now a financial consideration. Anything I didn't collect 20 years ago, I don't have a problem with that because I can still collect it today, assuming I can still afford it, which is not the case with Ferrari 250s and
00:51:10
Speaker
Cartier Tutti Frutti and Roy Air furniture and many more gorgeous things. Who's the go for you in the collecting world? As a collector and probably if you were to do 50 or such interviews in the watch world, I guess 40 times he would be mentioned and that is John Goldberger. He's to me
00:51:40
Speaker
really the finest, but for a number of reasons. First of all, I don't even know more than a tiny fraction of his collection. He's started, I think, close, no, actually, yeah, closer over 40 years ago, when it took you $10 here, $20 there, $50 there, $100 here to buy the great names in today's auction world. So he did it.
00:52:09
Speaker
purely like you and I would today call collect matchboxes. Nothing prestigious. There were no auctions. Nobody would applaud. Nobody would interview you. He did it for himself. He never did it for commercial gain. His collection is eclectic. He has themes. He has a great passion for Cartier. He has a great passion for Omega, for Longine. He accepts to make mistakes and eventually fix them by selling
00:52:40
Speaker
Not so intelligent acquisition and say okay such as life you can't always be right. He's extraordinarily gracious and generous with sharing information. That i think makes also great collector you don't just say me me me and the less i share or the more i even mislead you the better i can buy or collect. He empowers others to actually even be competitive at auction or at a show.
00:53:07
Speaker
which is extraordinarily unselfish, it's a community service at its best. And as formal as he may sometimes appear, he has a huge heart, one of the most generous men I've met. It is public knowledge he sold the unicorn white gold Daytona with all the proceeds going to charity, an amazing charitable donation. So he's pretty much an
00:53:36
Speaker
man that ticks every box in the watch collecting world. What about the chase or the sale? Do you enjoy the hunt more or the ownership? Well, if I may just reword it, I think the career of a collector and an item are hunt, acquisition, ownership, and possession, and then eventually one day they part again. I think the most satisfying to me are those on the early stage, whether it's in my function as a
00:54:06
Speaker
hunter for Philips. I also contribute consignments to the Philips auction, collectors who want to talk to me and I bring their watches to the auction. The most satisfying is the discovery, the initial contact, the research, the negotiation, the hunt, the moment we secure it, then the temporary ownership that we as specialists at Philips have, that means the two, three, four months that we live with an item,
00:54:36
Speaker
between the moment the contract, the consignment agreement is signed and the auction. Yes, of course, the auction is very satisfying because it does justice to the watch and our work, but it's actually so much more fun, the early phase. And I feel the same as a watch nerd. The dreaming, the waiting, the suffering, the hunting, the discovering,
00:55:06
Speaker
This first sort of should I shouldn't I sort of the flirt with the object all the way to. Yes, I go for it to the moment you put it on your wrist. Yes, she's mine on my wrist. That ownership is extremely satisfying. The sale, even if somebody like with that Omega that I mentioned earlier on as a teenage boy.
00:55:33
Speaker
is eventually resulting in a commercial gain is actually kind of not even that exciting. Totally makes sense. All right, let's finish up with what I think is the most important question everyone's going to want to know from you.
00:55:49
Speaker
The second most important question, the first most important question we're not going to ask you because we know we won't get the answer. What makes you the most important question? Maybe we could try it, right? Who bought the Paul Newman? Oh, that question. Oh, sorry, guys. Sorry, there's a poor line. I can't hear you. Yeah, going through a tunnel. Disconnected. But I'll say it again for your group of collectors.
00:56:20
Speaker
It's in a very, very, very worthy home. The gentleman who was on the phone to Natalie, so you see already excluded half the world's population, it wasn't a lady, is a absolutely wonderful, fine, distinguished, passionate, worthy new owner of that watch. It found a good new home.
00:56:47
Speaker
I appreciate the kind words of you talking about me so highly. And for all those who say, oh gosh, I've heard it all what company apparently bought the watch. It's not a company who bought the watch, just for those who want to speculate. Good to hear. Not a fund, not a Wall Street investment fund, nor a speculator of any kind. It's really a proper good new home for the watch.
00:57:17
Speaker
Glad to hear it. Yeah. What is your other question? Do you feel that you were born with the collectors, Jane? After our conversation, I think yes, because I didn't, I just look at the screen and I see we've spoken for an hour. It feels like we started 10 minutes ago. So that already shows me that it's easy and the most natural thing to talk about my, my addiction.
00:57:46
Speaker
If you felt that I put passion and there was passion and love in my voice when describing a watcher, describing the situation of the Paul Newman auction, then I think I am kind of worthy to be called a collector. For sure, I inherited genes that accelerated that pro process because my dad, um, everyone in my family is, I don't know if it's a massing hoarding.
00:58:16
Speaker
chasing, accumulating. They all love to hunt the flea markets, the antique shows, the auctions. I think it's a family thing, yes. I'd have to agree. And I just want to take the time again to thank you so much. This has been an awesome conversation and a really, really cool perspective that we were so stoked when you decided to come on. So we want to thank you and it's been a blast. Listen, guys, it's been a great pleasure. I hope you're safe and
00:58:45
Speaker
Maybe one day in person, not just over the web, we can meet somewhere in the middle. We'd love to welcome you to any of our Philips exhibitions or auctions around the world. Yeah, we'll meet you in New York next time. Great. Thanks, Rael. It was my pleasure. Bye-bye, guys. Take care. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye. All right, that does it for this episode. Thanks for listening, everybody. This has been Collectors Gene Radio, signing off.