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I Love EPCOT Book: Interview with Authors Dapper Danielle & Ian Wilson
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On This Episode
The guys are thrilled to welcome back author and Disney expert The Dapper Danielle, along with her co-author Ian, to discuss their latest book, I Love EPCOT. Danielle and Ian dive deep into the fascinating history of EPCOT, from its origins as a mishmash of two separate concepts to the evolution of its iconic pavilions. They share surprising stories about the design process, including how the original ticketing structure changed forever because of this park. They share their controversial view about the "correct" way to tour World Showcase—starting with Canada—based on original Imagineering sightlines and training manuals. From the technical history of Figment and his color-changing ways to a rapid-fire round on defunct attractions like Captain EO and Body Wars, the duo offers a masterclass in EPCOT history. They also give a sneak peek into their third book focused on "lost Disney" and explain why some of their favorite EPCOT deep-dives ended up on the cutting room floor. Of course, the guys ask their own silly questions like who would win in a dance battle, Orange Bird or Figment. Check out I Love EPCOT, available now anywhere you can buy books!
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Transcript
Welcome and Introduction
00:00:07
Speaker
This is Skipper Albert A. Wall, the voice of the jungle, broadcasting on the DVC to all points unknown. If you're within the sound of my voice, you're listening to Welcome Home Podcast on the DVC.
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello and
Return of Dapper Danielle and Introduction of Co-author Ian
00:00:31
Speaker
welcome home. And where're we're so excited to to to welcome ah Dapper Danielle back to our show after, gosh, when was your last book out? Because you promised us after you we interviewed over the last book, you were like, I'm writing an Epcot book and I'm coming back. And now you're back.
00:00:46
Speaker
We are months later after the second book already released and we finally got it figured out in
Balancing Book Projects with New Responsibilities
00:00:51
Speaker
our schedules. But this time I also brought with me Ian, my co-author. So you get to meet him now.
00:00:57
Speaker
So we got the whole gang together. It's a good time. yes It took me even longer to get my schedule organized. And now I'm here in time for the second book. So let's go ahead and talk about the third book when you guys are going to get us you know on the show for the third one. And then we'll be in lined launch Well, I heard you have a newborn though, right? So you have a good reason, right? I do. Yeah. So I don't, I just don't sleep. That's how I fit it all in now.
Creative Freedom in Writing about Disney
00:01:21
Speaker
you know, I've just decided and sleep is pretty optional.
00:01:24
Speaker
You just kind of get to a point where you just are constantly awake and you just don't care about sleep anymore for a while. and Then it all gets better as they get older. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, his baby, who's actually also my niece, she was born about, well, last month when Megacon was happening last year. And so she just turned a year old and she's fabulous. I love her so much. Oh, goodness, I could talk about that baby so much. Anyway, but because poor Ian, though, because if he's not with the baby and he's not doing his regular job, then I'm the one calling him in the middle of the night being like, hey, do you want to edit a book about Epcot or about random Disney things?
Repurposing Content for New Book
00:02:10
Speaker
Help, please. Who can say no to that? Well, he just tolerates me at this point, I think. No, no. I genuinely enjoy it. It's actually a really fun project to be a part of.
00:02:21
Speaker
i like I can imagine, right? I'm assuming that would be a ton of fun, right? Yeah, it's fun. And I mean, you know, I mean, not to jump the gun. don't know exactly what questions you have, but it's been really fun, too, because we... So I'm just going to full jump the gun for everything here. But so we're actually in the process of writing... Talk about it. Yeah, we're in the process of writing our third book, which is going to be more focused on some of the pieces of Disney history that have been lost, that never came to fruition, or that were... At one point, a part of Disney and now no longer it. And what's been so fun about that one is it was more kind of blue sky for Danielle and I. I'm like, hey, what do you want to write about? What would be kind of fun? And not that the Epcot and Magic Kingdom weren't fun to write a guidebook to it, but it was more structured. You know, it's like, we need to include this aspect. We need to talk about the food options. We need to talk about this attraction, even if it's not particularly interesting to Danielle or myself. But I feel like now with this third book, it's been much more like,
00:03:17
Speaker
OK, what what is actually kind of interesting? So it's just been way more fun to be on that side of writing kind of instead of being more like these are the things we need to tackle today to make sure we get them into the book. It's more like what would we like
Construction at Hollywood Studios
00:03:29
Speaker
to write about? And then let's find a structure, a narrative kind of around those things and and make it into the third book. So it has been fun.
00:03:36
Speaker
I feel like this, the next book, a lot of the things that kind of inspired it was everything that got cut out of the Epcot book. Cause there was so much that got scrapped from the Epcot book. And I was just like, Ian, copy and paste what we wrote into the other document. And we're going to that to submit. And that's how you second text literally we actually use some of the documentation we wrote that the, our publisher cut. And they're just like, we don't have room for this. I'm like,
00:04:03
Speaker
But we will in the next book. So we we already had portions of it written for Epcot. It was great. Yeah, that's that's smart. So you're not you're not doing the the you're not going to the next logical one, which would be how Hollywood Studios. You're going to whole different Lost Disney kind of thing. Yeah, because exactly. We were talking with Adams Media, our publisher and our publishing team, and they're just like, well,
00:04:24
Speaker
um there's stuff happening there, right? And I was like, oh yeah, there's so much happening right now. Rocket roller coasters closed. Muppets land is demolished. I'm still traumatized. We can't talk about that right now. And we kind of wanted to wait and see as we get a little bit closer. And I'm kind of hoping maybe by the time D23 is done, right? And this next book is, this next book is such release in September.
Epcot: Inspiration and Nostalgia
00:04:48
Speaker
So then we'll be looking at next contracts come like maybe January of next year. And hopefully we'll,
00:04:54
Speaker
Hopefully we'll have a better timeline of when Hollywood Studios construction will be done. So then I can write about it because if I write about it now, it's all going to be either it's not going to happen or the plans are going to pivot and change and all my information is going wrong. So we we're kind of just slowing it down. So this is the filler in between the construction period, which is so great.
00:05:16
Speaker
I'm actually i mean, i listen, I we Trevor and I both read this book, your book. I love Epcot or I heart Epcot, however you want to say it. Right. Which it which is out. And we both we both have it. It's it's oh it's invisible. The the green screen is taking it away, but it's there. I promise. In front of it.
00:05:34
Speaker
But ah but i first of all, i love the design of it. I love all the... the Because Trevor and I are huge Epcot fans. so yeah We both are love Epcot. I think you know it's what
Epcot's Evolution: Nostalgia vs. Modernization
00:05:44
Speaker
the one... ah ah you know i wrote You remember Magic Kingdom when you were a kid, but there's something about Epcot that also just resonates with you and something you just remember. It's just the big...
00:05:52
Speaker
the big golf ball, so to speak, you know, and she just remember that when you're a kid and you see it when you're driving up and you're just like, whoa, look at that thing. And and so when I was like, it was the park that made me want to be an Imagineer, even though I didn't get to be an Imagineer. But when I was a kid, I left there going, I want to be an Imagineer. Right.
00:06:08
Speaker
You know, I agree. So I mean, i so I that's really cool. though You guys are going to do Lost Disney because that's Trevor and I love that kind of stuff, too. Like we're super nerds about this stuff. Yeah. Funny enough, you're you're talking about how like you had a bunch of stuff that you you want to write about it, but you don't know what's going to change and everything and um on our podcast. We actually have a ah segment we do called Reckless Speculation, where we just go into all that stuff. And we just, it's just blue sky. Like, this is what we think it would be. And and we kind of and we kind of play the game of, like, what how much of this will actually happen or how close are we to the mark with it.
Research Challenges in Documenting Epcot
00:06:45
Speaker
So, you know, maybe that's something to think about as you're you're going through all this is, you know you know, just because it might happen doesn't mean you can't talk about I know it's harder in a book yeah in a book structure to, like, you know, because you write it and it's like it's out there. But, you know... Maybe there's an opportunity there for you somewhere. Right. And I was i was even thinking that, too. And we kind of dealt with this a little bit when we're having to write certain things, even with the with that book. Like, hey, this is gone, but it's going to be mentioned somewhere. We don't know where exactly, but it's going be mentioned somewhere. ah And I was like, it was killing me because I i am the...
00:07:22
Speaker
Out of this relationship with between me and Ian, ah I am kind of the, I want to have the exact details down to the names, the artists, everything. And Ian is the one that has to come alongside and say, Danielle, nobody cares other than you, so let's calm down. Danielle does. Danielle writes a sentence and it's like, okay, can we like footnote this with like appendix A for the history behind this like one sentence I wrote? It's like, well, no, like it's it's probably going to be okay. But I do think, I mean, and and talking about Epcot just, know, you guys saying that it's really memorable for you. I do feel like Epcot is so, it's such a dense park, you know, when you think about i think all the other parks, yes. I mean, probably like on a, when you're thinking about the ride or the food it's like it's probably all roughly approximately the same as far as quantity but i feel like epcot it's just it's dense you know it's like when you think back on it you feel like you've been to like three different parks and you really have and that was even part of when we were pitching the book to adams media and talking about it they originally were like oh so world showcase that'll be like about a fifth of the book right and we're like uh we know World Showcase will be like 70%. Yeah. that yeah Like it is a lot of the book. So, and but I think that's just the beauty of Epcot. That's the focus is you have, you know, the whole front of the park is a park in and of itself with distinct lands. And then you have World Showcase, which is just kind of on its own, you know, it's its own thing kind of. But I think that's what makes it so fun to go to it and to experience this because you can have just these crazy experiences of I'm going to have Italian pizza and then I'm going to go write Spaceship Earth and then... I'm going to finish my day, you know, in France before I head out, you know, to go play putt-putt at, you know, Swan and Dolphin or something. It's like, it just is such a, it's again, so dense. You can have so many experiences in such a relatively small space that I think is really what makes it so, such a cool park to go to and fun to write about too, but challenging to fit it all in a book, which is why we ended up stealing some of it for another book as well too. So so there's a lot in Epcot.
00:09:25
Speaker
Well, you always hear that imaginary story where they pushed the two models together to get Epcot, right? They had the the permanent World's Fair and they had the the technology and innovation thing and then they pushed them together. Yeah, I believe it. Yeah, that's that's how they ended up with Epcot. It's two like mishmash concepts that somehow work really well.
00:09:43
Speaker
Yeah. Right. And even when we were talking to the publisher, ah having to explain to them that
Epcot Tour Perspectives
00:09:51
Speaker
ah No, when we say pavilion, like we had to we had to explain that no no other park we're going to talk about does anything like this. yeah And like, yeah, we're like, no, no, no. We had to make it clear. It's like inspired by the 1964 World's Fair. And like, this is why it's broken up that way. And the publisher is like, but that's not how Magic Kingdom was done. I'm like, no, it wasn't. But you you wanted me to write about Epcot. I'm telling you how I'm going to write about Epcot. And it's like Disney, I mean, they changed their whole ticketing structure for Epcot. It was like once they came out and they were like, hey, this is different. This doesn't work. did Like the magic. Even Disney realized like we created a monster here. We need to adjust things somehow.
00:10:28
Speaker
That's actually something I learned from your book. I didn't realize that the death of the book system was Epcot. I don't I just didn't know that. That was ah that was a fun fact I learned. Because they ah that was something I loved. I love pointing that out. And the fact that Epcot really was the one that caused not only Magic Kingdom to change how it operated, but also Disneyland.
00:10:48
Speaker
And like Disneyland kept theirs for like a little bit longer. But then they realized, oh, hey, this is working for the Floridians. I guess we should change our our ticketing structure too. And like Disneyland is like, oh, yeah, we're the ones that did all these things. I'm like, oh but did you really? Really? Florida did a lot of these things. And then you guys borrowed it too.
00:11:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's interesting. um Sorry, Trevor, I feel like I've been dominating the conversation here. No, yeah no you haven't. But i actually, I mean, we so I had some questions that I wrote ahead of time just to, leave you know, talking about different parts of the book.
00:11:19
Speaker
And, you know, obviously, we don't have to go through all of these, but I'll start with, um you know, just talking about the pavilions. Yeah. um I really want to know, was there a particular pavilion or area when you guys were going into it that you found was difficult to gather information on? And then a bit of a follow-up to that from a personal view, was there any that was a blind spot in your own knowledge? Because i know like both of you are incredibly knowledgeable about this, but we all have blind spots in what we do and don't know, especially about Disney. Like there's no way you can...
00:11:52
Speaker
know everything, right? Yeah. yeah You try to. Was there one in particular for you, Ian, that you can think off the top of your head? i have, like, not necessarily a whole pavilion, but little tiny
Epcot's Design and Ticketing History
00:12:02
Speaker
subject matters within them that I'm thinking of.
00:12:05
Speaker
Maybe start with that. I'm going to keep thinking. Okay. That's a hard question off the top. I know. I know. I start with that. I would say...
00:12:16
Speaker
ah The things for me that I was kind of blinded by was I knew that a lot of the like pavilions and a lot of the buildings in Epcot were inspired by real places in the world. And many of them are just miniaturized versions of these places of architecture. So I did not realize like there's some there's some buildings and some pavilions where you look at like Germany, for example, and Germany is kind of a mishmash of all these different architectural styles and actually is one of the few pavilions that does not take a lot of direct inspiration from any one particular building. It's kind of just generic. And most of that's just because it didn't have proper sponsors, which if I don't want to spoil that section of the book. But um yeah yeah all the other pavilions had a lot more direct inspirations or building inspirations. And I think I was more surprised on the exact buildings. And that kind of distracted me from my research was then I would go down the rabbit hole of like, oh, what do you mean it's inspired by this hotel? Tell me all about like, like, a what is it? Canada and how it's inspired by a specific hotel that was instrumental in the train industry and connecting the great frontier of Canada. i was like, oh, this is fascinating. You're talking the hotel in Ottawa, right? Yes. Trevor's Canadian, so Trevor lives in Canada. I am in Canada. I'm actually in Calgary. This is your son's I will say, Trevor doesn't always feel like the Canadian pavilion represents where he lives as much as it does. I have my own issues with it. I understand. And I feel like... You're telling me that you guys don't only eat maple popcorn in Canada? That's like not your primary food group? We have a lot of maple syrup. It's easy to get. It's true. Yeah, no. But I feel like some of those places, you because it is kind of just a generic little quick snapshot and trying to represent an entire country in one little tiny pavilion. And then it may it made me start going down the rabbit hole of finding all the research into this one thing. And Ian's like, Danielle, we can't fit all this into the book. You can't put just so much information on something that is not truly in the park and it's just an
Commercial Influence on Attractions
00:14:35
Speaker
inspiration of.
00:14:36
Speaker
So, yeah. I get it. That's why you have an editor, right? Right, exactly. Yeah, I think probably for me, when I think about a blind spot, I do think... i think it's easy for you to just get caught up in the, well, what is in Epcot is what was always supposed to be there, you know, and you kind of... And you don't really think about it from like Walt Disney's perspective of it always evolving, always changing and kind of how that was true throughout the construction process of Epcot as well and and has been true even in recent years as well. and so I think yeah i just went into it very much of like, well, this is Epcot and Epcot is, you know... as I remember it as a kid, as I experience it now, like that's Epcot. And I think just reading about things like, oh, well, in the Germany Pavilion, there was a planned attraction that never came to be. And same thing with Italy as well, too. And you just you kind of get a sense for, wow, we're really only kind of scratching the surface with Epcot where we could have maybe so much more, you know,
00:15:34
Speaker
And there's still room for so much more. yeah Yeah, there really is a lot of room. And I think so I think just kind of that was maybe my blind spot is just kind of thinking about it of, well, this was the complete vision kind of when in reality it's like, yeah, it's already a slimmed down version from Walt's vision of what Epcot would have been, obviously. But then it's even a probably a more slimmed down version of what some of the original Imagineering was for it. And that, you know, mythical phase two that I hear was planned. But yeah. Phase two just never seemed to really get off the ground. I don't know where we're at with phase two, but.
00:16:08
Speaker
um Instead, we got Walcott. yeah Not anymore. It's going to Walcott. I know. on It's true. It was so funny. a Beastly Appetite, ah who is a Disneyland content creator and one of my friends, he was just here and he had not been to Epcot since the walls and had not seen. Oh, jeez. moana journey of water and all this other stuff and he's just like we were were walking through the celebration gardens and by the walt statue and he's just like where are we i'm like oh the walls were and he's like ah yeah this is this is pretty lush this is great yeah
00:16:47
Speaker
i I have more of a, it's not that it's not that it's not about the book. It is. Because we we're going to ask you some more philosophical questions about your feelings on Epcot, too. and And one of those is, you know, like you mentioned before, Epcot, you know, and and you talk about this in the book, obviously, Epcot was originally supposed to be a real community. and And, you know, plans shifted after Walt died. And and the interesting thing to me, though, is when it, you know, originally started, it really kind of almost created the category of edutainment, right? Like they were the ones doing that. Yeah. Right. is the entertainment that was there was also educational. Right. And they were doing so much of that. And, you know, for a while they shunned away the IP and things like that. But we kind of like in a weird way, they went away from the edutainment and then kind of come back a little bit, you know, like Moana was edutainment-y and... And I feel like they've been kind of going back to classic e Epcot and things like that. But i do I do wonder how you feel about you know how Epcot has evolved from being that edutainment park that didn't have the all the IP in it to now Moana and Finding Nemo and Guardians of the Galaxy and Ratatouille and Frozen. And you know now we have it kind of all over the park. you know Just what what you think about that kind of evolution.
00:18:02
Speaker
Do you want to speak on this for a scene or do you want me to? Yeah, sure. I'll go. That means it's a good answer. You give your two cents and we'll see if we if we're thinking on the same wavelength or not. I think that it is it is, I think it's noble to try to do something without Disney characters, Disney IP
Future of Epcot Attractions
00:18:19
Speaker
free.
00:18:19
Speaker
I don't know if it ever really works. And I think, you know, we were talking about this just recently with Animal Kingdom, how when they first opened the park, they had not a lot of IP represented. They had the parade was this super cool, futuristic, you know, amazing kind of costuming type puppeteering parade. But everyone was kind of just like, yeah, where's Mickey Mouse? you know And so i I do think there's something of we like Disney because we like the stories that Disney creates. And unless you're going to go all in on a story for a certain land, you're probably going to have to bring in one of your films or something to kind of support it with some type of a narrative. um I think with Epcot, to me, it's a little bit of a unique case.
00:19:02
Speaker
Frankly, i if I was thinking about Epcot for the next 30 years— I feel like all of the country pavilions are going to become a pavilion with an IP that is somewhat from that, you know, country. So like Frozen is going to take over Norway. It's just going to become the Frozen pavilion. It's not going to be the Norway pavilion. Interesting. And I think just, I just think geopolitically, it's just, it's challenging to think about tying your fortunes to a country, not knowing necessarily. I mean, Europe, it's like you have Pretty good chance that Europe's going to— Millennium celebration was proof of that. Yeah, but I feel like, you know, Europe, you have a good chance that we stay friendly with the United States for a long time, that nothing happens. But to me, if I was trying to insulate Disney from risk in the future, would be thinking we're going to have to bring in IPs because we control the IPs. We don't control the actions of the other countries. Yes. I like the idea of the edutainment. I like the idea of bringing in these country representatives. I love things like the international program where you have cast members from these countries talking about it. And even things like Impressions of France is like one of my favorite things at Epcot to go do because it's just like, yeah, we're checking out the French countryside. So part me hopes that never goes away. But I don't know, philosophically, I'm like, maybe we're trending more towards an IP heavy park in the future. But we'll see when that actually happens.
00:20:21
Speaker
and Yeah, and we me and Ian, you can tell we have had many a discussion on this. Which is good. That's good. Yeah. Well, it's no, our family's tired of it because we're just talking about it around the dinner table whenever we're together. And then they're just like, please stop talking about the philosophy behind Epcot. ah And i i would have to i agree. i agree with you in 100 percent. But also, it is amazing to look back on the history and realize how many of the edutainment stuff that we have was so commercially based and was entirely based on the sponsor that sponsored each of the pavilions. Yeah. yeah And that's exactly why they disappeared and why they're gone is because that contract ended on the 10-year dot.
00:21:03
Speaker
And they're just like, and deuces, we're not paying for it to know oh no more. And it's like, what are we going to do? And so they have to either they have to remove that logo and that branding or sometimes it's just easier to go ahead and just pitch the entire idea and then bring in something new. So it is amazing. i don't know. Maybe it is because I come from the the Disney merchandise side from my frontline cast member days and the working with these third parties and these designers and just being like,
00:21:34
Speaker
just fascinated by the contracts. I am so fascinated by that. And when when people are just, ah what would like, they're so
Exploring Disney's Resort History
00:21:42
Speaker
interested. i was I was talking to somebody else about this here recently, too, when we went thrifting. And people were looking at, oh, my goodness, like, part tickets and FastPasses. Everybody else was looking at these, like, whole stack of old paper FastPasses that you could buy for, like, $2 or something like that. And I was like, you look over at that. I'm going to go look at the union contract booklets that are over here and And operational guides. And they're just like, what? I'm like, because it's all the fine details, the contracts, the contracts. And they're just like, oh, good for you, Danielle. And I don't know. I i found that the most fascinating and how I do.
00:22:19
Speaker
i do miss that era of edutainment. But are we really missing the edutainment or we missing that brand that sponsored that attraction? Yeah. that's and That's a valid point. it it is interesting, though. It is hard to do these parks without IP anymore because I was thinking about, as you were saying this, Ian, like, my all-time favorite Disney show is Illuminations. Do you know many times I've heard people say that show was so boring or, like, how could you... And I'm like, how do you find that show boring? It was incredible. for But I was that kid growing up. I hated Illuminations growing up. I love it now as an adult, now that it's gone, but not But if you threw Mickey in there, are you going to like it then? I mean, I don't... i Probably. Okay, but... And Tom hates me saying this. So I have a 17-year-old. We've taken him to to you know Disney multiple times.
00:23:05
Speaker
One of his first times in Disney World, yeah I think it was like 10 or 11, we watched Illuminations. and he was So the problem was we went and we watched Happily Ever After. and then we watched Illuminations.
00:23:18
Speaker
And he was like, eh. was like, that's it? And I was like, Yeah, I can't really defend It's not. What are you talking about? You can defend it. It's amazing. Listen, Rivers of Light is great in Animal Kingdom, too. And that was light on the IP, too. That was so good, too. And everyone hated it. I apologize to our guests. No, no, no, no. Daniel's with me. I can tell Daniel's with me. Well, no, because like we've talked about this also because here recently, while I was actually thrifting, I found and I did a whole video about it. I found the original year 2000, 1999 album that had the entire Illumination soundtrack on it. It had the...
00:24:02
Speaker
Tapestry of Nations parade and everything else like that on there. And I love the music because it does have a weird nostalgia to it. And separate away from a firework show is amazing. But when we went as kids in the early 2000s, when this was a thing, I loved the giant puppets. They were my favorite thing. But if we stayed and watched Illuminations, I would get so bored. And was like, OK, the little planet's moving really slow, getting out into the middle the water. Mom, can we go? I'm so tired. It's all about the message, right? It's the message of Epcot. I was hopped up on sugar and popcorn. I didn't care about message at the time. But it's hard to compete with something like Happily Ever After because, you know, you see character, you immediately connect to the emotional storyline of that character. They can play three bars from a song and you're already crying because you're like, I remember that story and you're telling a story alongside that story. So I'm just like preemptively ready to have emotions around it. Whereas if you're making a new story, people don't have any associations with that story yet. And so you have to
00:25:08
Speaker
you know, and i think it's hard too, because a firework show, it's like, you're going to have to paint with broad brushstrokes. You're going to have to make this general theme, everyone coming together. It's Epcot, you know, it's just, so it's hard to pull on the heartstrings if you don't have any help there kind of, you know? So I think that's, that is the challenge. I mean, it's like Danielle said, you put some of these shows on their own separate from a firework show. People probably are like, they're decent shows. We like them. It's an interesting concept, but something about it being the firework show, it's like that has a a place of people's heart where you need something different sometimes. So it was great in in the year 2000. We had wishes and we didn't have projections and these kids are demanding more technologies. It was it was a great show. But now are you picking wishes over Happily Ever After, Danielle? Is that I'm hearing?
00:25:54
Speaker
yeah here's if i Because I came in at the end. I was actually working as a cast member. And so I remember the end of the wishes era and the beginning of the happily ever after era and the people that still to this day fight over wishes. I'm like, ain't touching none of this. You got leave me out of your fight. I don't mean none of this.
00:26:13
Speaker
ah yes Yeah, it's yeah. Yeah. that There is definitely something to be said for like point in time of like where you came into Disney yeah kind of affects that part of it. Like you said, you know, it's, you know, you know, for my son, it is happily ever after because, you know, he never saw wishes. So.
00:26:30
Speaker
You know, that is what it is. Now, I know we kind of went down a tangent, which we do on the show all the time. You know, it's totally fine. It's with me. We knew this was going to happen.
Speculative Disney Topics
00:26:40
Speaker
I fully expect. We appreciate that you like the rabbit holes in the tangents. That's what we like. Yeah, exactly. So actually, I did want to ask. So I.
00:26:51
Speaker
Reading through the book, I don't remember seeing anything really about Innoventions. So was that was that a deliberate thing? Because I feel like you could have brought it up. But I also get why you would have skipped past it because technically Innoventions is it gone gone. But again, that's... Innoventions held a place in my heart because I am I am a IT person as my career. So the technology stuff, I just I nerd out about it. And I loved Innoventions, but I also get why I can't be there. Loved Innoventions when I was a kid. Right. And like, Ian, do you remember Innoventions at all?
00:27:28
Speaker
Like it was the it's where c celebrate we're creations or not creations. um The cafe is today and where Starbucks is today, basically. OK. you And also where Moana was. that's right.
00:27:45
Speaker
we did try to write a little bit about Innoventions and immediately the publisher's is like, but is there anything pertaining to it to it today? And they're just like, no. And they're just like, get it out of here. So even in the new book, though, we didn't really have a chance to be able to really get into the nitty gritty because Innoventions changed more than any of the pavilions did.
00:28:07
Speaker
And that's true. Like within the first three years, it got its first update. And then the ad five years after that, it got another major update and so on and so forth. And I'm also amazed by the lack of documentation given by Disney. And so ah what we're having to go off of are people's firsthand accounts and personal family photos to be able to find these things, to make sure that they actually existed. ah And this is something... um i I have video of me or not video photo of me riding a Segway. I did that, too. I did that, too. I was doing that also. Oh, that was the coolest. cool. So cool. But also there's so much misinformation, too, because if you on these Disney sites, the Disneylanders start arguing, no, that was never an annov innovation because they had their own version, too, in Tomorrowland.
00:29:00
Speaker
That's right. I forgot that it was in the it was in the old. um ah ah What was the name of America? and their care that the Yeah. In their carousel progress location. so yeah Yeah. Yeah. Which is interesting. I forgot about that. Right. So me and Ian, we've actually been running into this issue with a lot of our documentation for the next book. So and this applies also like just where there was a version in Disneyland, even though maybe it started in Disney World first, like Mile Long Bar, for example, ah over in Magic Kingdom, right outside of Country Bear Jamboree. We had one and so did Disneyland after us. But there are some major stark differences. But Disney only recorded the version in Disneyland. And there's little to no photos that exist of Disney World.
00:29:45
Speaker
Wow. And so, Interventions was kind of one of those things. And I'm like, I can't argue to a publisher to say, hey, this is what's here, unless I also find newspaper clippings and other proof besides just me going out of my own memory kind of thing. So, it is i get that it is shocking. But yeah, we there's no references to that one in there. Yeah.
00:30:07
Speaker
speaking Speaking of shocking. What? Good transition. the most The most controversial thing I think you have in this book is the is the recommendation to start in Canada. I don't know. it well You know, listen, I i read the rationale. am Canadian. Yeah. Okay. I'm Canadian and I start in Mexico.
00:30:25
Speaker
But did you like the rationale? The rationale we lost to go. Yes. I agree with you. I agree with your rationale. Now, I guess, who came up? Was that between both of you or was that like one person argues? No, no, no. That is actually... Well, it is the Dapper family way. it's a personal preference. You didn't just write the book. That's actually what you guys This official documentation from the original cast member training guides from 1982 and how the pavilions were actually designed. Hmm. So if you, in the original training manuals, which a lot of our information came off of that we were able to find, scan documents of, and able to reference point them back and forth the entire time, the opening team cast were trained to go by way of Canada and end in Mexico. So if you go, I'm going to tell you all to do this. When you go start in Canada, it makes sense to the visual representation. Right.
00:31:23
Speaker
So you see the hotel off in the distance. You're not blocked by trees. And then when you go over the France pavilion, originally it was designed to, when you go over that first bridge and you're looking at France from ah the UK side, it was to recreate a Monet painting from France. So it was it was to represent, oh, which one is it? The pointillism piece of the river and the water scene.
00:31:51
Speaker
Is that one in the book? I can flip through. No, I ended up, i ended that ended up in detail. Oh, man. But it is referring to a Monet painting. It referring to the Monet painting. And so there's a lot of these, like, style preferences that were created for you to see that pavilion. So even if you go by way of Mexico now, right? So if you start in Mexico first, you see the quick service, the margarita stand, and half of the pyramid.
00:32:18
Speaker
Right. Because the trees are growing up around it. If you come by way of Norway, the pavilion and the pyramid you see more prominent because that is supposed to be your eyesight and your visual.
00:32:29
Speaker
Interesting. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. You're breaking my brain right now because I like i'm I'm very big on like mapping out areas and stuff. And I'm thinking about all the times that I've gone around World Showcase and I'm like,
00:32:46
Speaker
That makes sense, but my brain is not registering it when I'm there that this is this is the deliberate sight line and this is how they wanted you to see it. all And even like like Japan as well. I was like, oh, actually, the way that you come into Japan makes sense with the, yeah. It's the first thing you see, not Michikoshi.
00:33:07
Speaker
Yes, it's true. yeah yeah And even and that's why America, the the ah American Adventure Pavilion is completely even because that is the center point. It is the folding point of the map. So that's why it's identical. And there you don't have a specific sight line.
00:33:24
Speaker
Wow. OK, that makes total sense. Right. It doesn't mean i'm going to start going to Canada first. Hey, by when the sun's not beating down in your eyes at four o'clock in the afternoon, you're going to thank me if you start over on the and Canada side first.
00:33:38
Speaker
You know, that's right. When I read your rationale, I was like, it makes total sense. i just never thought about it that way. And truthfully, most people just naturally go to the right,
Book Insights and Epcot's Legacy
00:33:47
Speaker
i which is interesting, right? You just right people naturally walk to the right. That's what they do. So it's interesting that most people pick Mexico. And I don't know where that started or how it started. That also. So. Sorry, sorry. I'm going to continue this tangent one more second. No, no, no, please. Please continue. Continue. The idea of entering and you go naturally flowing to the right, right, in the American way of doing traffic, was also stems from the original idea that the American adventure was a pavilion that you were supposed to enter through first and then exits. So it was supposed to be the welcome and the exit to the World Showcase. So you would exit to the right, follow traffic, and then come back into the pavilion from the left.
00:34:31
Speaker
Wow. american very merry that's Very American. Very American, So I or i guess, i don't know if there was a this was a thing for your family, but so when I was a kid and that this, you know, my first um Disney park was Disneyland.
00:34:47
Speaker
And we were, um it was a thing with our family. and And I found out later that, you know, it wasn't a secret, but it was go to the left. We always started an adventure left because, you know, everybody, like you said, everybody wants to go to the right. So I feel like part of the Mexico thing is feeling like breaking the,
00:35:05
Speaker
um breaking the go to the right thing like it's it's just a matter of defying the flow and not that it's actually well because we talked about this in the magic kingdom book and we wrote in the magic kingdom book to start an adventure land so for us to go against that grain of thought no you go yeah there is some of that too Maybe people just like, you know, especially if you're going to drink around the world, you want to start in Mexico. It feels just like the right place to start. don't know. See? But drinking around the world didn't really become a thing until here in the early It's true. Yeah. Right? Yeah. It's interesting. But, Tom, you could get a Canadian beer to start. It's not as exciting. An Ottawa apple. All the tequila varieties that you can imagine. Or a margarita. I don't drink beer anyway. I don't drink either, but I just I'm just thinking of how I like why. Why is it become a thing that people just like it's it's like blasphemy to say you start in Canada. You don't say that, you know.
00:36:04
Speaker
Well, technically, you have convinced us, though. I very much appreciate the logic in the book. yeah Well, it makes a lot Ian would actually argue that you wouldn't start in either one of them. Yeah, I like the France entry. I'm not going to lie. i'm i'm oh World Showcase? International Gateway. I like that better. Off the Skyliner, of course. see do Go off the Skyliner. Skyliner or skyline or a Friendship Boat. Either one. Just pop in. i don't know. It just flows better to me that way because I feel like then you just, I like starting in France. I like getting little snack there. our pastries in the morning.
00:36:36
Speaker
figuring out what you're gonna i think it's tough too because i've been so much so for me and there's not a bucket list that i have to do around epcot whereas feel like if you were coming in you're like i've got you know 12 hours in the park or whatever and i have to do everything you might want to start you know kind of more have a better flow than coming in in france but i don't know i think it's not it's not a bad strategy i feel like yeah To your point, though, when you come into that, it's a whole different strategy when you come in from from the International Gateway, because I think I always do go to the right when I come in that way. I don't think I i think I always end up going that way. So, right.
00:37:11
Speaker
Yeah. So really, you're starting in Canada, even when you come in an International Gateway, whether you accept it or not. ah Yeah, that's true. little food for thought there, y'all. Just letting y'all know. Yeah. Love it. I love it. Yeah. So if you want to know who what the rationale is, go read the book, get the book and read it, because I think that it's a a compelling argument for sure. Thank you. Yeah. um Yeah. It's yeah. but
00:37:40
Speaker
don't want to ruin it. It's edgy though. It is. like it It is definitely. I do ruffle some feathers. We appreciate that though. But when I bring people with me and we we I make them start in Canada and I've kind of gotten some of the Disneyland friends also to start in Canada also. And when i when I'm that person and I'm touring them around, I'm just like, we're going to start in Canada and I'm going to prove to you why. And i I'd stop them in the middle of the walkway like that person and just stop here and I'd be like,
00:38:07
Speaker
Look at the architecture. Look at the detail. This is why we start in Canada. Yeah. Just as the Imagineers intended. Just as the Imagineers intended. Exactly. And because it goes by the training guidelines. Again, it's the operational guides, the contracts. it's It's the respectful way to do it, really, because, you know, you're you're respecting the the the the the the design of the Imagineers. Exactly.
00:38:31
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, so so let let me ask you this thing because you're you're talking about the operational documents. Is there, i mean, obviously, you know, you don't have to divulge all of your sources, but did you find it hard? Like, I know you have connections to to get to some of these things.
00:38:48
Speaker
Was there parts of, like, getting to certain documents that were, like, a particular challenge or, like, because because I've seen, like like, the Disney history stuff where it's, like, you have to have, like, white gloves going into the room and, you know, they don't want you to touch things. Was there any of that kind of stuff going on as you guys were going through the discovery yeah i wanted to do this like mission impossible thing danielle was like i'm gonna lower you through the roof and then don't touch the lasers and we're gonna go into the archives and like comb through this cabinet so there was that but other than that it was pretty straightforward
00:39:20
Speaker
It a lot of digging and a lot of finding like the newspaper archives, people that had their personal collections that they scan them in onto. Because there there are there are newspaper archives. There's also like lost media archives that you can find. You just have to know the key words to be able to search in those archives for the algorithms to be able to give it to you. You can't just say Epcot because or you can't say like a specific thing. You have to give the correct nomenclature and the correct like phrasing that the publicist would have used at the time of pre-release for this thing.
00:39:55
Speaker
So it it was a lot of digging back and forth. And we did run into a couple issues, especially with Epcot and with the new book of ah there's some information that was put out by somebody that was considered a historian at the time that looking back and looking at some of their dates and some of their things didn't line up 100 percent correct. And I'm like, I think this was fabricated and there was nobody to cross reference them.
00:40:22
Speaker
yeah and disney And Disney doesn't do that. They didn't, because they don't know anything about Disney World. They just assume, yeah, somebody else posted about it. It must be correct. And a lot of it's not. Wow. I'm guessing they weren't they weren't cataloging a lot of it back in the 80s. What, Disney? they didn't think about it that way. I know. What, dis Disney? Disney Imagineering is still cataloging from show Bibles from the 90s. And they they don't have half of Disney World archived.
00:40:50
Speaker
When I tell you it is a pet peeve of mine, they have my email. They have my phone number. They know how to get a hold of me. And I will do it as an unpaid intern. And they still don't reach out to me.
00:41:02
Speaker
Disney's catarition is basically just, this is a shipping container. Let's just put everything in there. Lock it. Throw away the key. Right. If it's important, we'll find somebody will it.
00:41:14
Speaker
will find it. Yeah. Yeah. I think we'd be remiss ah to to talk about Epcot without talking about everybody's favorite purple dragon. You know, in and also on my shirt here, Figment. Figment is...
00:41:28
Speaker
My favorite Disney character, I love Figment. ah Figment is, is ah if they ever get rid of Figment, I don't know if I could go to Epcot again. its I love Figment. There would be plenty of other people rioting with you. Don't worry.
00:41:38
Speaker
ah There's no way they can get ever get rid of Figment. Figment is the greatest. But one of the things we actually learned from you on the last time we interviewed you, we talked about Figment briefly as a preview of this book. And you told us, and I didn't know this about my favorite characters, that Figment used to be, was was green at one point. Yeah. And that because of and that ah because of the sponsor, to your point, that Figment changed to kind of match the sponsor. So what are your favorite Figment facts from the book? I want to know about what you feel about Figment. i like you know Because everybody loves Figment, I feel like.
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah. I feel like there's not really anything new facts to be able to say that either haven't been said in the book or anything like that. If anything, i feel like by revisiting it and talking about the pavilion, it just made me angry.
00:42:21
Speaker
like and Because of what they did? or like ride yeah i like Because this also ties back to like as soon as the Kodak sponsorship ended, and Kodak was the one that asked for the entire attraction to be changed, even though it was loved. They were trying to seem edgy. They were trying to stay relevant in the business. They still flopped. And because of the damage they did and Disney's unwillingness to pay for it to go back to the original because Kodak such i had such a heavy hand in it, um It just makes me angry when you look at like this is a contract that was failed and somebody at Disney did not argue hard enough to say don't touch it if it ain't broke.
00:43:01
Speaker
And we could have had the o g if we weren't so desperate for so another company's money. And that's what makes me angry. Interesting. Yes. I mean, do you think they'll ever redo it and and do it to so do something else with it? I'm sure they have to eventually, right? No. but disney Disney's mentality for a lot of things is if it ain't broke and nobody's complaining about it hard enough, it's okay. Yeah.
00:43:27
Speaker
I, there's so much of that pavilion that is just walled off and empty. know. Yeah, we know. you know in That's what, like I said, it just makes me angry just thinking about it. And I... If Disney's not willing to fix other glaring issues currently within Epcot, and they're just kind of saying, it's okay, because again, a lot of these decisions are being made by Californians and not people that live in this park every single day, then...
00:43:54
Speaker
then They're just going to be like, it's fine. People like figment. But i don't think, I don't know. I think there are some, I do wonder. If it will never go back to the original because of the Kodak contracts. Interesting.
00:44:11
Speaker
And that's why it hasn't happened earlier. The show, like in like the show creation, the show idea, like some of that could have been tied up in that contract. Right. But I do think it's interesting. This is kind of full circle going back to the beginning of the show. of Figment's a great success story for IP in the park with no, yeah you know, No story, no film, no cartoon or anything to back it up outside, really. Like, that i guess that initiated Figment, you know, as a character. Figment just started in Epcot. It's going to die in Epcot if he ever does. um I think it's just I love seeing that, you know, you just come up with an idea that is born in the parks and it stays in the park.
00:44:49
Speaker
So I love that. Well, he did extend out of the park temporarily for an educational TV series. um Very, very limited runs. I ah think only a couple episodes, too. Kind of like how Orange Bird made a very rare appearance in Florida public schools for teaching about nutrition and health. um Figment had the exact same thing also for some stuff.
00:45:12
Speaker
But it didn't get beyond that. It was just, like, it's lost media, too. There's no other, there's maybe recordings here or there, but it's incomplete. Hmm. See, I remembered a Figment cartoon when I was a kid and I thought it was going crazy. Like I, cause I couldn't find any information about it.
00:45:26
Speaker
now Like I was like, I swear I remember seeing a cartoon version of Figment somewhere on TV or somewhere. and why But yeah, that's that's, that's, that's crazy. But yeah, I see Trevor and I keep, I keep saying that I want them to make it into like a trackless ride and just make it like super zany and like, like how cool would that be? But you know, but at the same time,
00:45:45
Speaker
We alluded to it. did we Actually, no, it didn't make it into this book. Right? he animated it into the second book. The sinkholes. And I'll tell you. The thing about Figment and a new Figment, right? is that yeah Well, because I'm looking at attractions like Buzz Lightyear, right? And how that track and that model style, even though it's currently going through a refurb, the track is the exact same and it uses the same show elements that were from 1971. And And I'm like, if they ain't going to touch a track that's been the same since the 50 or like 50 plus years ago, they're not going to touch Figment anytime soon without gutting the entire pavilion. And i i don't know. i Do I love the pyramids more than a magnet style ride? I don't know.
00:46:35
Speaker
i I mean, at least they're finally replacing the ride vehicles in Blazda. You're after being the original ones. Thank goodness. We'll take what we can get, but still, I'm just like, I mean, yeah yeah And, you know, to Tom and I, we're both DVC members. So, you know, we make use of the lounge. and Don't take away my lounge. I'll be very upset if the lounge goes away. What it opened up the rest of behind the walls? Like, let let somebody ask. Tempting. Yeah. Yeah. Very tempting. There's just so much behind those walls, but...
00:47:06
Speaker
Well, listen, i i'm Trevor, I don't want to hold these guys up forever, but I do have, like, I feel like I have a couple, like, rapid-fire random questions. I'll try to keep it brief, and I won't try to yap so much. All right. Well, these are know these these are easy these are easy ones, I think. Okay, so ah if you could bring back any pavilion or ride at Epcot that's gone, which one would it be?
00:47:31
Speaker
Could they be an attraction that never came to fruition? Yeah, sure. Why not? I like that. Andy, i went off the top of your head. I'm just tug stuck between two. how was going to say Captain EO or Malmstrom. Wow.
00:47:47
Speaker
Surprised no one goes to Horizons Universe of Energy. Yeah, we don't need Universe of Energy. Somewhere Ellen very upset. I know something is very upset. But also, again, this was the same kid that went on that attraction and ah random. OK, I will go on a random tangent on this one. No, do it. It's fine. It's good. My mother got me on Dinosaur and Animal Kingdom for the first time because she thought it was just the same as Ellen's ride. no. So I became terrified of dinosaurs. I have a very mixed reaction. And then afterwards, some mom's like, no, it's not the scary dinosaur ride. Mom, I don't believe you. Yeah, I am slightly traumatized by that attraction.
00:48:29
Speaker
Yeah. ah So I don't miss it personally. um But I would say i would i would agree with Captain EO only because i just I love that genre, the music and ah so how it ties into Michael Jackson's career, too. I think it's just fascinating in history. um But if I was an attraction or a pavilion, I would say i would have loved to see the Italy pavilion to what it was originally intended with the attraction, the Roman ruins. and not via Napoli.
00:49:04
Speaker
All right. You don't like, you don't like via Napoli?
00:49:12
Speaker
Moving on. That's one of my favorites since Epcot. I love that place. It's great. It's great. Good times. Had by all. my gosh. Fun times. Stuff I cannot share on the podcast. It's fine.
00:49:29
Speaker
I'm just talking about the food. I mean, I enjoy the pizza there. okay. All right. Yeah, but with the fact that we couldn't. could have had a and we could have a ride through the canals of Venice and like a dark ride slash water ride and like recreations of Rome and like tying in with ancient history, not just inside Spaceship Earth. Anyway, I digress.
00:49:54
Speaker
Continue. No, i I see what you're putting down there. I can see that. Yeah. yeah All right. Wonders of Life Pavilion. What do you do with it? but We, I don't know, honestly, because I'm like, I look, we talk about Play Pavilion. We actually do acknowledge this in the next book and how Play Pavilion was supposed to come in. And I'm just like, got to do something with It went away magically. Just disappear. Just close the doors. Nobody will remember it. It's just a rotting, like rust brown color now instead of the gold dome that it once was. Ian,
00:50:30
Speaker
ian what do you think? I would turn it into rotating character meet and greets for rare characters and build out some like special little rooms for them that could be kind of futuristic or something. That's a good point. But get some rare characters in there.
00:50:44
Speaker
Why didn't that become Mickey and Minnie's meet and greet location? It's just, we're using it. I've just been confused for the longest time why that building just sits. It's such a cool building and it just sits there doing nothing. and i Because nobody's willing to pay for it.
00:51:01
Speaker
that we we need to get We need to get your follower counts up so you get enough money so you can sponsor, you know, one of these pavilions. Welcome to the Dapper Danielle Pavilion. yeah yeah's The Imagination Pavilion sponsored by Dapper Danielle. Sponsored by the Dapper Danielle. Yeah, no, literally. I'd be so game for that. Yeah, but what's the joke? um ah Oh, what is what is it? ah When I win the lottery, I won't tell anybody, but there will be signs. That'll be one of the big signs. That's the one. yeah You will You will know. I'm answering an Epcot pavilion. Yeah. I feel like that would that would kind of be a sign of like, people would just be like, oh, that's a really great collaboration with the Dapper Danielle. Oh, yeah. I wanted to bring back Body Wars. I remember that one when I was a kid. so Or even Buzzy. I loved Cranium Command. Buzzy, yeah. Cranium Command. Yeah. That was cool. Cool concept. basic Basically Inside Out, except a live show. and yeah Cranium Command crawled so that way Inside Out could run. 100%. 100%. Trevor, do you have any of these questions? Because I i was thinking, yeah. yeah
00:52:05
Speaker
i'm going to I'm going to ask a very controversial one me because i like, ah like i well, yeah, besides Canada. I mean, actually, by the way, you know, i appreciate that you actually did mention Calgary in the book. That made me excited as a Calgarian. So appreciate that. But I want to know who would win in in a fight. let's Let's say like a dance battle. Orangebird or Figment?
00:52:30
Speaker
And I'm saying this because I am very much aware of your Sunshine Tree Terrace um thing in the background there. And I know i know aren Orange Bird is your favorite. So who would win?
00:52:41
Speaker
The dance off? and The dance battle? Is that what you're asking? Yeah. Have you seen Figment? He's pretty clumsy. I don't think he can dance. No, but he... He can't talk. He has to communicate with his body all the time. He's a good dancer. All right.
00:52:57
Speaker
Oh, i love that we stumped her. I think, no, because i'm I'm weighing pros and cons. They're literally going back and forth with six moves in my head. mean, Figment has a lot at his disposal with imagination. He does. And I'm not thinking of him as like a meet and greet character. I'm thinking his animated form that appears there near the meet and greet that also appears on the television. and appeared in the original attraction. Can Dreamfinder be his hype man in the background? Is that allowed? no. Dreamfinder is a DJ spinning the track on the table in between the two. Records on his hands. He fell down. The ability of the tail that acts as a fifth limb. So could he use that as a spinning mechanism?
00:53:40
Speaker
And then Orange Bird, though, he would just win because he's just so cute. Could you see him? Imagine that. Imagine a little tiny fruit bird with his little tiny leaf wings trying to act all cool and like trying to be like that that Midwestern mom in a hip hop class. Right. And just like know that kind of vibe. And him just like trying to bust a move with his little leaf wings.
00:54:03
Speaker
you You're making me think of when they had breakdancing in the last Olympics. and that that looks like that's ah That's what's happening here. Orange Bird would win just because you're like, oh, he's so cute. So that's why he would win. on his orange But Figment would actually win because he was he was trained and he he took music and dance lessons with DreamFinder. So I think he would win in that sense. Yeah.
00:54:27
Speaker
i So I don't... Popularity versus skill, I guess. It'd be a tough competition. I think they would both do ah One thing, and i I might be jumping ahead to your next book, but I am fascinated with the concept of Westcott and So, and I know this isn't really Epcot related, but kind of is right. And if you don't know Westcott is, it was going to be the West Coast version of Epcot. And I hope you guys are writing about it in your book because I, Westcott is fascinating. But I, one of the things of Westcott was that you would be able to stay in all of the different countries in the world showcase area. And I think to myself all the time, how awesome it would be to be able to do that in Epcot. Would you guys want to see that Epcot?
00:55:08
Speaker
Oh, I think cool be it would be so cool. But also the amount of paperwork. Could could you imagine? and have yeah days yeah these, these, the, oh, I'm going to the groups that come in and go drinking around the world. And then if one of them already gets in an argument and they they start separating from each other in the park. Right. And you've seen it. You know exactly the scenario. Yeah. um There's the bachelorette party that if somebody in the group gets their feelings hurt and they all separate and whatever. And then they're all going to just walk into a random pavilion that has a hotel and being like, I got kicked out of my room at the boardwalk. Do you have anything available? I could know.
00:55:51
Speaker
And they're in Great Britain. and they're They're over in England there. Right. And then they're just yelling profanities at each other across World Showcase Lagoon. I cannot imagine that. Like, i don't know.
00:56:03
Speaker
Yeah, it'd be interesting. It'd be cool. It would be cool to have a specific suite or something kind of like the Cinderella suite in each pavilion. I think that would be great. Not necessarily a regular hotel type stay.
00:56:16
Speaker
Okay. so Are you guys going to be covering Westcott in the book or are we allowed to ask that? Or is that, are you staying to the East Coast? Yeah. Our publisher, like we even try to mention, we mentioned one or two things that like didn't come to fruition in Disney World, but went to Disneyland. And they're like, are you sure you don't have anything that was like just Disney World? Yeah.
00:56:35
Speaker
And so they didn't love it when we talked about it too much because they're trying to keep it within the bubble and within the context. And I'm like, yeah, OK. It's tight in, though. It was great. We actually had to cut okay a couple of things because of it. Yeah.
00:56:49
Speaker
All right. let let Let me ask you this then just as one last follow up to that. um You know, we we've you know, your first two books have been focused on the parks. Is there going to be any opportunity to look into like the history of the resorts and Disney Springs? And like, because there is a lot of area outside of the parks that i I'm assuming or I know that there's things in in the resorts that don't get touched on as much.
00:57:14
Speaker
But I'm wondering if you guys are looking there as well. Ian, do you want to answer this one? Sure. Yeah, we have actually a whole chapter. So it's going to be called Beyond the Gates. And we were slightly limited in this one. So i it wasn't just like, you know, we can't tell the whole story of every single resort or, you know, cruise lines or Disneyland. know, we had to had to give some parameters for Beyond the Gates. But it is going to let us touch on a few of those things like...
00:57:39
Speaker
um you know, the contemporary or ah river country, you know, kind of a failed water park that was there that's there no more. So we are going to have an opportunity, I think, to be able to touch just on a few of those things. But that's been a bucket list item for us for a while. It's like getting to write about every resort kind of like a guidebook, like um I love Epcot or I love Magic Kingdom, where you can really go through resort by resort, tell the story of it, the imaginary details, everything hidden there. Yeah, totally. Yeah. yeah There's, um that is something like, even for the Beyond the Gate chapter, we really had to argue that too to the publisher because they wanted it only to remain within the four parks. And I'm like, no, you don't understand. We have to have one just beyond the gates and touch a little bit, at least like, because we could have gotten into celebration history. We could have gotten it into more history that expanded around Orlando too and how Disney had its hands and just so many different things. And yeah,
00:58:37
Speaker
The publisher is like, well, we don't have any proof from any other publishings that anybody would be interested in a hotel based book. And I'm like, that's because nobody knows it except for me. And you won't let me write about it. So. ah yeah And you you have people that are interested in it and we do want to know about it, please. like I would love, in that and I guess that maybe, maybe this a dream and that's a pipeline dream of we're going to have to really argue to be like, hey, can we do one just about each of the resorts and the theming? And like, cause there's some, we do touch a little bit on like Saratoga and how that one was inspired when it moved from Disney Institute to Saratoga. ah We also,
00:59:25
Speaker
No, that's really the only. Well, we've talked a little bit about Pop Century and Art of Animation and that obscure history. ah Very, very interesting stuff. But we don't really get into the storyline and what the official stuff that is being taught for. Like, why is Porter Leans broken up the way that it is? Why is Boat Rights in there? And ah why is French Quarter that way? Or what's and what's another good one?
00:59:51
Speaker
Oh, I write a lot about Contemporary Resort. Oh, that one we definitely got into the nitty gritty of because there's so much that was defunct in there and that it was the original for so many things. ah That one has some really cool history. ah Some really really cool history.
01:00:05
Speaker
and Same thing for Polynesian, too. Oh, yeah. I know mean, I feel like every hotel on Seven Seas Lagoon deserves a story. And, I mean, the whole area was designed. I mean, speaking of hotels that were based in countries, that whole area was designed to be just that. You know, countries represented in different hotels all, you know, yeah with water transport to Magic Kingdom. So,
01:00:27
Speaker
Yeah, there's just a lot there that I think would be really, really cool to explore. um So maybe someday. and Well, and even the ones they didn't build, it's like the one that was supposed to sit like in the water halfway that was ah like Asian themed. There's all these. Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:41
Speaker
The Venetian one, right? Is that what it was? I think the Venetian one was supposed to go. different one. And then there was the water one. And then the a the Asian one, it was, i love looking at it, how the square was completely blocked out and they decided, huh.
01:00:55
Speaker
Gone is that planned. Let's throw the Grand Floridian in there. yous there And but you can still see from these old pictures from the 70s and just looking out across the water, this perfect square of where this square hotel was supposed to go. It's fascinating.
01:01:11
Speaker
Oh, it really is. So we've talked to you for a long time now. don't want to hold you up too much longer. You didn't talk to us. We yapped at you for a long time. So I'm so sorry. No, but we loved it. We could talk to you for four hours. This was wonderful. Honestly, we could keep talking to about this. Yeah, we could keep going. Well, we can't because Tom and I are supposed to be playing mini golf hours. sorry. virtual reality we play VR mini golf it's our thing that we do besides this but that's not why we're leaving Trevor we don't want to hold them up too much longer but I do have one more question I just I feel like I have to ask because we have some listeners that you know go back and forth on this so yes or no
01:01:49
Speaker
ah yes or no good or Do you like it or not like it? Because we have some listeners that love it i and it's some that and obviously a lot that hate it But, you know, I'm in yes to it. I would not pay for it, I don't think, but I enjoy it. Wow, you enjoy it. I actually don't like soda.
01:02:07
Speaker
So I cannot give an example one way or another. i am not a carbonated beverage girly. um Only when it's mixed in with a Shirley Temple can I do a like Sprite. And that's really the only time. ah So I can't weigh in one way or another because like if people are like, oh, well, would you do that over a Diet Coke?
01:02:26
Speaker
i I can't argue that. I don't even even like Diet Coke or regular Coke. Yeah. But have you tried Beverly, though, even though you don't yeah, absolutely. And we make all of our friends that have never been to Epcot before try it, too. And it's great to watch their reactions. But ah yeah I can't give a fair answer. i tried to um I tried to introduce my brother to it last year, and he went, oh, it's nice. It's like, oh, you ruined it. Yeah, I recorded him and everything, and he looked at me, and he was like, you were really wishing for something weren't you? And was like, Ian would have been in the same boat. He doesn't mind it either.
01:03:03
Speaker
yeah it's just love Well, that's some of our listeners love it, too. They i been like they said, they won't go out of their way to drink it, but they like it. I think Bippity Boppity Beard, my friend Cole, he loves Beverly.
01:03:16
Speaker
he ah He likes it a lot. And I'm just like. This is why we're friends, but we have polar um differences of what we enjoy. brother would Like, yeah. Yeah. But before we let you guys go, are there any is there any fun fact or thing from the book that you want to tell us or tell our audience, ah you know, that just to highlight what this kind of what kind of things are in this book or your favorite fun fact?
01:03:41
Speaker
Wow. That's a hard question. That is hard one Because it also, a lot of things that I really loved got cut and moved to the next book. And I don't want to give too many spoilers away. i understand that. um Oh, okay.
01:03:54
Speaker
I do think of one that actually I will be highlighting in my panel at Megacon Orlando because I'm going to be doing a walkthrough around Epcot and just briefly talking about a couple of things. But I love the fun fact that we threw in there about the UK Pavilion and to pay attention to the stained glass windows.
01:04:11
Speaker
and the UK Pavilion because they all represent different things in European and British culture. And one of my favorites is the four colleges or universities there um that are hidden on the windows. And you have to go look at the at the book to be able to see which ones I'm talking about and which ones are referenced. But we thought it was interesting that they are not the most popular or the biggest ones.
01:04:36
Speaker
in They're really random. They're very random. And nobody has an answer of why they're there. It's just acknowledged that they are there. And I'm wondering if it's ah maybe in reference to when they were doing their tour around Europe and they were getting their inspiration and their data. Is it an homage to someone? But no one has ever been able to confirm it for us. But I love that they're represented and they're highlighted in there. So.
01:04:59
Speaker
That's great. I love the fact about ah the Voices of Liberty. I feel like that was they were actually a fascinating group to learn about about how they went from basically just seasonal contract by contract performers. And then one of the things that was most instrumental in them getting renewed was actually a former president of the United States hearing them sing and saying, oh, that was so good, basically. that And then one of the Disney execs was like, wow, OK, if the president likes them, maybe we'll it. You have to rehire them. We can't. Right. And it wasn't even like cool a permanent thing. Even after the president said it, they're like, can we extend you for another eight months? And then it just kept going from there. And then to think of the American adventure without them now, years later, is shocking.
01:05:46
Speaker
yeah Yeah, that's a good another good one, Ian. Anything else you want to ask Trevor before we... No, i I asked my important question about Figment versus Orange Bird, so I'm happy. yeah somebody like Orange Bird breakdancing and looking all cute.
01:05:59
Speaker
yeah I'm going to ask AI to animate this for me. ah days Please don't. I want to see this now. No, I'll animate it for you. I'll draw it for you. It won't.
Book Title Clarification: 'I Heart Epcot' or 'I Love Epcot'?
01:06:11
Speaker
It will not come out the way you think it will, Tom. No, it absolutely won't. um But the book is called, i is it I Heart Epcot or is it I Love Epcot? It's just either way, right?
01:06:19
Speaker
It's so funny because it is written out, like if you search it, it is I Love Epcot, um even though it has the heart emoji. And we were actually, we talked about this in the last book signing, Ian. And you... It's because of New York City. New York City, one of their their big campaign to revitalize the image of New York was I Love New York, which, of course, we all know is I, heart, and why.
01:06:42
Speaker
And so this is, I guess, a page out of that book where you can read it as I Love Epcot, even though it's just the heart. So I think it's I Love Epcot. That's how I think of it. But if you call it I Heart Epcot and you buy the book, I'll i'll forgive you. you both Both are correct.
01:07:00
Speaker
yeah Call it whatever
Social Media Presence
01:07:01
Speaker
you want. Yeah. If you go search for it, though, you can buy it anywhere you can find books. But ah and and, you know, you can find, ah you know, Danielle, the Dapper Danielle, right on all the all the different social medias. Right. he Dapper Danielle on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. um I'm over on threads, technically. Rarely ever post on there either. ah And then also on Facebook, too. So i'm I'm literally everywhere as the Dapper Danielle. If it has the Dapper Danielle and additional underscores or periods or unnecessary numbers or letters, it ain't me. There's only one the Dapper Danielle. And then ah ian he he created an Instagram too. i make occasional appearances on social media. I'm not big on the social. i'm I'm the behind the scenes guy. I write the books. i don't necessarily stay. My wife manages our our show Instagram because I don't know. I'm too old to understand how Instagram works. I don't i don't understand it. She does it. at work and And my wife does our Facebooks.
Gratitude and Sign-off
01:08:05
Speaker
it's all good it's all good but thank you guys so much for this time today i'm so glad we finally got to do this the book is fantastic we really both enjoyed reading it and it's so epcot-y if you love epcot like even the pages the design all of it it is it is everything you want out of an epcot book so please go go check that out and and thank you so much daniel and ian for making the time to talk to us today Absolutely. Yep. Supposed to feel familiar, nostalgic, but also a chance for you to learn something new. So definitely go check it out. That's that's the best kind of books. Yeah. Thanks again, guys. bye Thank you.
01:08:38
Speaker
This is Skipper Albert A. Wall, the voice of the jungle, signing off from Welcome Home Podcast on the DVC. We do a hug when we had a chair.
01:08:50
Speaker
How she can cuddle, she's no man's affair. I look around for all the folks, found her in her sugar bowl. Hey, look out, here goes my ball and chain.