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The Challenges of Remote Work - CRMArch 297
473 Plays1 month ago
The Nitty Gritty of the Remote Work Model - The remote work model is here to stay but the argument regarding it needs to move past “yes” or “no” to establishing strategies to make it most beneficial for the employee and employer. Like any management model, there are complexities that require considerations of unique circumstances; this is key to the success of remote work or it risks just being the next fad.
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/crmarchpodcast/297
Blogs and Resources:
- Bill White: Succinct Research
- Doug Rocks-MacQueen: Doug’s Archaeology
- Chris Webster: DIGTECH LLC
- Andrew Kinkella
Kinkella Teaches Archaeology (Youtube)
Blog: Kinkella Teaches Archaeology
ArchPodNet
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Transcript
Introduction to CRM Archaeology Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. This is the Serum Archaeology Podcast. It's the show where we pull back the veil of cultural resources management archaeology and discuss the issues that everyone is concerned about. Welcome to the podcast.
00:00:23
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to
Episode Introduction: Remote Work in Archaeology
00:00:24
Speaker
the CRM archaeology podcast episode 297 for September 18th, 2024. I'm your host, Chris Webster. And on today's show, we talk about the challenges of remote work. So don't forget to charge up your laptop because the CRM archaeology podcast starts right now.
00:00:45
Speaker
Welcome to the show, everyone. Joining me today is Chris on the Jersey shore, wreaking havoc.
00:00:54
Speaker
Andrew in Southern California. What's up, everybody? and Doug in Scotland should be joining us later in the show. So today we are going to talk about the nitty gritty of the remote work model. You know,
Is Remote Work Here to Stay?
00:01:11
Speaker
I think like CRM was way ahead of the i know the fad on this, because really when you think about it, the as needed employee is really the ultimate remote work model when you think about it. But, you know, I think that we need to look at
00:01:28
Speaker
You know, the remote work model, most of the arguments are, is it good? Is it not good? Should we do it? Should we not do it? Those questions are kind of, and they're done, right? Because it's here to stay, I believe. And so I think now we need to move past that into figuring out strategies to make sure that it is the most beneficial. Because I think right now we're still, we're just passing through The argument of really isn't good or bad and everybody is still on one side or the other instead of really looking at the nitty gritty of the remote work model, acknowledging that not everything is.
00:02:04
Speaker
the best for every employee or for any employee. There's
Exploring Remote Work Benefits and Challenges
00:02:08
Speaker
obviously a lot of benefits to it, but there's some things that I think, especially for those that are starting in the workforce, may not understand could be roadblocks to their professional growth. And so I'm not saying I have no problem for everybody that works with me on my team, remote work, hybrid model,
00:02:29
Speaker
I'm very supportive of all of it. So just want to make sure everyone knows that's where I'm coming from. But when we do when i but we start somebody working on my team, you know we have a discussion about we remote work and what ways it is beneficial, what ways it isn't. And so the first segment, we're going to talk about just the over overview of remote work and how it's being used now in CRM. And I think I'll open it up and And see what Kristin Andrew think first. So, yeah yeah, I'll jump in here because I've been remote working for a long time. And, but you know, I have to say, I'm i'm definitely a huge fan of of remote working and just because offices, I hate offices in general, I think they are life blood sucking machine and.
00:03:20
Speaker
You know, I mean, offices in general just like aren't done well it for the most part. I think people hate going to offices. They go to offices and they just they they they can only think about leaving the office. You know what I mean? So if you can change somebody's environment and make them happier and and then just focus on.
00:03:37
Speaker
Focus on output and not hours, so to speak, right? So you put some good people on like a salary and you say and and you have a good idea of how long it takes somebody to do something and not how many hours they're putting in every week. If we can get away from that model and just say, I know how long it takes to do this and and I know what you're worth. And i if you can get this done, then that's all I care about. You know, that is what your task is. Do this thing. Then I think we can we can really get remote work to work well. Now, the
Balancing Remote and In-Person Work
00:04:05
Speaker
benefits, of course, going into the office are camaraderie, you know, having those conversations that that really, you know, that's what people always say is one of the benefits is those conversations that happen spontaneously. Right. That don't always happen when you when you're remote working. But that's why you need to engineer those situations where people are hanging out and doing things and you're just not remote working 100 percent of the time. but I think that's why archaeology is also unique, because
00:04:31
Speaker
You know, we, we engineer those situations with field work. I mean, if you've got a PI, that's remote working all the time. Yeah, they might have to engineer a situation where they meet up with everybody sometimes because they don't always go into the field, right? But everybody else, they're going to be.
00:04:46
Speaker
You know, in the field and doing things occasionally and and and meeting up with people and having those conversations and doing those things and and having that camaraderie, which is good. But I think there's plenty of tasks that can be done remotely and you just have to trust your people and and understand how long it takes to do tasks and and not be so concerned with the fact that, yeah, they're going to walk their dog and do something and maybe hang out of the coffee shop in the morning and don't concern yourself with the fact that they're not working nine to five.
00:05:11
Speaker
They're answering phone calls, they're doing things, they're getting reports done. They might just be doing it on their own schedule and be okay with that as long as they're meeting the project timelines. And I think that's the biggest thing people have a hard time getting around. So there's my quick 2 cents on that.
00:05:24
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. So my two cents, this is good. Cause I basically totally disagree with Chris. So it's fun being on the, on the other side, just because, um, the short answer is I am not a fan of remote work. I think some of the stuff that Chris brought just brought up like the camaraderie and that kind of stuff. And just the sort of teamwork aspect of things is so huge in person. And, uh, and let's be honest, you get so much more done in person if you're all working together. Now, I understand if you're in a classic cliche office environment, then you can like screw around and yeah you know and so and you're sitting at the water cooler you know and nothing's getting done. That's kind of the cliche, but in reality,
00:06:07
Speaker
I find that just so much more gets done in person and and I find the remote work model, a lot of times people use it as an excuse. And I find that as the years go by, people demand it more and more and they have they have demands that are unreasonable. Like, well, I need to work from home because I have a child. It's like, dude, we all have kids. We deal with that because we're professionals.
00:06:30
Speaker
And I know that sounds harsh, but on the flip side, is and you don't just get this right. And on top of everything else, if I'm looking at somebody's like resume and they and they say like remote work only, which you get a lot, they immediately go to the bottom of the pile for me. Like, I want to see that you're going to come in now with my like with my little rant here at the top.
00:06:54
Speaker
I also understand the positive aspects of remote work. And I'm I think that the theme of this podcast is really great because it's the nitty gritty. It's the it's the sort of point by point aspects that really matter, because if you have like a hybrid model, you know, where you're out some, but then you're in other times that can work really well. But it's got to be well thought out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I mean, I think You know, Chris, I understand your perspective. I think that I think you'd be surprised like in the. In the office setting right now, I'm seeing more and more young people that are coming into the workforce that would rather not be remote.
00:07:36
Speaker
Yep. A lot of the reasons that we're saying, I do think that in the way I've always approached it.
Flexibility and Individual Needs in Remote Work
00:07:42
Speaker
And again, we're segment two, we're really going to get into point by point pros and cons specific to CRM. But in general, my approach has always been it's on an individual basis. And that's not that some people get to do remote work because there's favorites. That's not it at all. I have a conversation with everybody on the team and we talk about it.
00:08:03
Speaker
And I explained to them, because they may not even know what are some of the pros and cons of remote work. They've just been, this has been pushed on them for the last few years. And they've been told that this is the best way to go. And I don't think, I think people need to have a full understanding. You are a mature professional, Rachel, don't laugh. But Chris is a mature professional.
00:08:27
Speaker
and You know what works for you. You know what doesn't work for you. And you know what you've experienced in office settings. I'll tell you the office I'm in, there have been offices I've been in. There is exactly what you say. But the office I'm in right now is so energetic. And the people that are there are so supportive of each other. There's various different disciplines that it is energizing. And as somebody more mature in life,
00:08:57
Speaker
agewise as far as i'll take it I love the youth in the office, i the youthful setting. I gravitate to that energy and to the new thoughts and ideas that they bring and their desire to learn and their energy and excitement for the for their discipline from the start is really terrific. It helps re-energize, to me, the older workforce.
00:09:27
Speaker
So, yeah again, I don't want to go too far into pros and cons, but I do think that for remote work, archaeologists have been doing remote work for so long because of the nature of our work that I yeah think that we actually can be the best type of remote worker because we've done it for so long. just Just speaking in general terms, too, because like you said, we'll get nitty gritty on segment two, but I think speaking in general terms,
00:09:56
Speaker
Some of the other benefits of the overall you know ability to do remote work really depends on where you're at too in the country, right? Because you know if you're if you're in a busy, busy metropolitan area and your office is in downtown Los Angeles and all your people live on the outskirts and it takes yeah an hour and a half to two hours to commute into work and then out of work.
00:10:20
Speaker
every day. Yeah, right,
Hybrid Models for Work-Life Balance
00:10:22
Speaker
right. Like, who the hell even wants to do that, right? Like, I would only want to go into the office maybe once a week, if that were the case. And it would just, it would make me hate going into the office, even if you guys were the best people on the planet, right? Like, I just simply wouldn't want to do it. And that, that kind of thing, like, I would want a hybrid model for sure, if that were the case, right? Where, you know, sometimes I'm going in because you guys are cool and I want to get stuff done. But then other times I'm just like, you know what?
00:10:44
Speaker
I just rather stay home because it's easier and I want to spend more time. And then the other the other advantage too is if you're doing a lot of field work, I would rather do my my stuff that I know I just don't simply need an office for when I'm at home, especially during the field season, because when I'm in the field, I'm away from my family and and I'm you know doing stuff like that. Whereas you know when I'm at home, I can be immediately at home, you know obviously you know doing work and and around my office, but making my own schedule. and I don't have to have even more away time and I'm just a happier person because I can, you know, do those kinds of things. So, right you know, depends on the situations. I think, so so you know, specific to the subject that Andrew brought up about children, you know, I i was a single mom. I went worked and was in graduate school as a single mom and.
00:11:34
Speaker
You know, so, ah so I understand the ramifications of that, but i I think, you know, that the argument that I have children and I need to be at home, you know, I honestly, I haven't seen one instant where people have done better at home with their kids working than the other way around because You know, when you have children at home, it's, it is happening, you know, they're interrupting quite a bit. They are very distracting and yeah it's difficult. Again, that's not to say it doesn't work for some people, but most people that I know that have tried that work at home with the kids, it hasn't worked, especially if their partner is working for another company and they are gone away from the house.
00:12:28
Speaker
it right I mean, if you are a present parent, that's a wonderful thing. And that's a very difficult thing to do that and also be a present worker. Right. yeah yeah That was my experience too. Yeah. Okay. I've got to chime in on that because it goes down to I equate this to conversations we've had on this podcast and conversations I've had in the field about this is the exact same situation where companies that say, you know, I'm not going to give you cash per diem because I want everybody in the same hotel because people can't show up to work on the same at time. And it's like, you're not going to tell me if I can't show up to to the hotel at 7 a.m., then fire me. Right. Like if I can't show up to the same hotel and you're not going to give me cash for dm because I want to rather stay in this hotel over here or I'd rather sleep in my car, it's not your call. Right.
00:13:18
Speaker
if i can't manage my If I can't manage my kids at home, that's also not your call. Fire me. but i guess who can I think it's a little different. I think it's a little apples and oranges. But I'm also not your call also, right? Like if they can't do it, find somebody who can. Well, here's here it is. Now I'm not saying this like I'm dropping the hammer, but as a manager, it is my call. I can tell you that you're not going to work. You're not going to work remote. I'm not. And so I want to make sure I'm not, I'm not miscommunicating or not fully community communicating here. I'm not speaking to.
00:13:53
Speaker
managers and saying that we should have control over what you do at home if you're working remote. That's not at all. My statement there was to talk to people that are considering doing that at home, right? It is not an efficient model. It's very difficult. So I'm not saying managers should say, I'm not going to allow you to do this because you're not going to be able to handle it as a parent. I'm not saying that at all. I'm talking to parents when I'm talking.
00:14:20
Speaker
as a parent myself, I'm saying that in order to be a present parent and a present worker, it's very difficult to do that at the same time. Of course, it all, it's ages of children. And then here's the other thing is, is that, okay, if you're doing, and we can talk about this more in the next segment, but if people say, okay, well, wait a minute, my kids are going to school. It's not, I'm not saying that.
Trust and Understanding in Remote Work
00:14:44
Speaker
Okay. If your kids are going to school,
00:14:46
Speaker
Then let's talk about the flexibility that if you live near work, then we do like I have somebody on staff right now who he works part of the day when he can at the office. And he is at home on some days because he needs to do more with his, his child and his wife is somewhere else. And sometimes like he had his kids were going to camps and nearre yeah near the office. And so it's everything's flexible. And that's that's where we're grown adults, right? The manager's a grown adult and isn't stopping their feet going, I want it exactly this way. And the employee is not is also a grown adult and is able to, you're able to have conversation with each other and make it work. and right But that takes work. That takes time and effort that some people, unfortunately, some managers are not willing to do. Yeah.
00:15:42
Speaker
So and then some employees are afraid to ask because they don't want to seem like the high maintenance employee. And so that's where some of this needs to change. And yeah we can talk about that. I think that's that's a good way to start our next segment.
00:15:57
Speaker
Welcome back, everyone, to the CRM archaeology podcast, episode 297. And we are talking in this episode about remote work and the nitty gritty of remote work. Doug wasn't able to join us for the first segment, so we're going to start off this segment. This segment is specifically going to be about really getting down to the pros and cons relative to CRM. But first, we're going to start off and just get a kind of a an idea of where Doug sits with remote work. Yeah, so I missed everyone else's, so this would be interesting, but I'm pretty sure most of you guys probably, well, I know Chris would have done it sooner, but I'm guessing most everyone else, it was COVID and that know was your first experience. ah But I've been doing remote work for almost like 15 years now. So I was doing it back before, before it was a thing, back when like,
00:16:53
Speaker
Skype was a way of of of talking online and i mean have Teams or Zoom or anything like that. So yeah, I feel like the grandfather of the group at the moment. Back in my day, guys, you young whippersnappers don't know what remote work is like. But yeah, I have lots of experience, helped a lot for COVID because I'd already been doing it for a decade. And yeah, I have lots of tips and tricks, but I'm excited to hear where everyone else's thoughts are on it. I feel like Doug and I might be aligned on this topic.
00:17:28
Speaker
ahley yeah so be were just but but what you just said What you just said, Doug, was is actually how we ended the last segment. And that is that it's different because if you have been working in CRM for a while, I was going to ask you, but you just said you'd already been working for a decade in CRM when you started doing remote work or in archaeology in general.
00:17:51
Speaker
No, I'd only been in archaeology for maybe three or four years okay before I started out work. and And was that regular full-time work? Was it on and off?
00:18:03
Speaker
Uh, it's been on and off. So the work I did was remote work was mainly with landward research. And that was very project based. So sometimes there was work and I'd be full-time and sometimes there'd be no work and I'd be like zero hour contract with, which basically meant and no pay and anywhere in between on, on a part-time. So and it's, it's gone up and down. So you have experience with full-time remote work.
00:18:31
Speaker
I guess you could sort of, it's not really quite hybrid because it was different jobs, but I'd have like one job in person, one job remote. So yeah, a range of different experiences over those years. Cause it's never been, but you know, it's archeology, you know, where sometimes it it rains and then it pours work and you you have too much. And then sometimes you have nothing and you go and get a different job.
00:18:56
Speaker
So, you know, let's look at remote work. What is remote work? Because I don't think it's just don't go into the office. Remote work is you're working alone. For the most part, that's what you're you're working. Now, obviously you have interactions with people. There's lots of different ways of having interactions with people, but you are not working side by side with someone in in ah in essence. That's what remote work is. Any argument on that? Go ahead. I think this is where you you kind of end up with sort of a Remote work, if I was to do a definition is you don't have
00:19:30
Speaker
usually a home base of office in the traditional sense that everyone goes into the same office, but doesn't necessarily mean working alone. So I work, ah you know, doing different setups on remote work and, you know, sometimes several people will be in the same city. So in the sense that they'll they'll meet up or go into a, for lack of a better word, you guys can't see it because we're, ah're you know, we're doing a podcast, but I'm doing air quotes right now, you know, like an office and an office might just be like,
00:20:01
Speaker
your local coffee shop or your pub or something like that. so And then I also know people who do sort of remote work, but they remote work with other people who do remote work. So they get together and again meet up and they sort of have that office interaction, but it's not actually people that they work with.
00:20:17
Speaker
They work next to and it just adjacent to. I think there's a lot of ways of doing it that doesn't necessarily mean you're stuck in like a closet somewhere looking at a computer screen 12 hours a day. So, you know, in the first segment, we talked a lot about the fact that, you know, remote work has so many different So many different means, right? And there's so many different versions of remote work.
Remote Work Discipline and Challenges
00:20:43
Speaker
And we also, and there's also ah many different versions of employees and employee unique circumstances and knowledge. And so, you know, the premise behind this podcast is to understand
00:20:57
Speaker
It's not just a yes or no. Is remote work good or bad? like We need to go past that argument and move into what are the complexities of of remote work. And for some, it will work. I mean, there's theres jobs in this world that have been doing remote work, writers, right? They do remote work all the time. but They don't have a home-based office, typically. so And a lot of times, just by the nature of having to write, journalists, they have to be moving around.
00:21:22
Speaker
so You don't think remote work is so unique, but in a typical where it used to be an office setting. This is a unique model if we're going across the board and everybody is going to be or a majority of people are going to be moving into remote work. And so I think just to make sure we stay on topic, because there's so many different. aspects of this, it is very complex that I think let's, let's go through the pros and cons and we've talked a little bit about them, better work-life balance, which
00:21:54
Speaker
I personally think can go on both sides. I think it can be a pro and I think it could be a con, work-life balance. And that depends on the person. It depends on the person. It depends on where they are in life. Another pro would be you have more freedom. You're not stuck. You're not having to like punch the clock, punch the card. You're in at this time and gone at that time. Some people work better during certain times of of the day than others my husband is not a morning person at all i'm very much a morning person and so you know being able to take advantage of people's work styles and and how they and making sure that they are working at their optimum time that freedom allows that obviously the infrastructure costs are are.
00:22:40
Speaker
significantly decreased. So now that's now we say, okay, that that's just the employer. That's the benefit of the company. But not really, because when you think about it, decreased infrastructure costs should increase the pay of of um should yeah so it sure should we When you think about that, I mean, look at it. Now, I think that's going to take some time to suss out. It's going to take a while to get to that point, but because we because these companies still have these you know large offices. But as we start decreasing the office to a more efficient model, then the overhead, I mean, you look at it,
00:23:22
Speaker
Anybody who's looking and writes proposals know that the number, the minimum number is a triple multiplier, right? Why is that a triple multiplier? Because you have all this overhead. The less overhead that you have, these, you can stick with the same multiplier or you can Change that multiplier so that the employee is making more money. They're more satisfied. The profit margin is still there, but you don't have all this extra overhead. So I don't think it's just a benefit to the company. I think it definitely, if it's done right, is a benefit to the employee. Yeah.
00:24:01
Speaker
And then increase in productivity. I think that can go both ways. It all depends on the person. Another is, you know, your flexibility to hire and retain top top talent. So yeah, it depends on whether or not that's a real like deal breaker for somebody. Is that something they really want? Do they want to work strictly remote? So I think let's maybe let's tackle the pros to what everybody thinks.
00:24:25
Speaker
I just think it's funny that like, of all the stuff you listed, they all basically do go both ways. You know, a pro isn't really necessarily pro in column A, you know, it just sort of depends like work-life balance. You know, I'm someone who likes going into the office, even when I'm not supposed to go into the office, if that makes sense. Like I'll go just to do work in the office because for me,
00:24:47
Speaker
It's a place where I can shut myself off and just do work. Now, I still will screw around a little in my own office, but not nearly as bad as at home. You know, at home, I'll just be like, what's on Netflix? You know, and then I'm like, oh, the day's gone. You know, but in my office, I don't have that nearly as much. So I will get more work done. I'm the other way. I will. I will work. If I'm at home, I have no lines. they They're blurred.
00:25:14
Speaker
It's yeah like until my family says, okay, Heather, mom, no more working. Like it's time for dinner. I, I am very like, I'll just zero in on the work. And if I don't have that separation, my father was the same way. It was funny because during COVID he was still teaching and he would literally get up and he would get dressed in what he would have worn. If you went to the office and he would have these demarcations, right? to Right.
00:25:42
Speaker
make sure that he had some separation between work and his life, his home life, right? Those do blur together. I think this concept that, you know, you have to have two separations and if you're not a balanced person, if you're not, you know, some people, for me, I just, I'm a very, I live, breathe.
00:26:01
Speaker
work. I love it. I love it. It's not work or working for that company. It's in general. I love learning. I love producing. I love yeah thinking of new ways, all that. Right? So yeah, me too. Well, it does depend on your job, right? And and how you feel about it and and what your job actually is, right? Like if you, if you want that separation, I mean going to a place and And siloing your activities going to a place is going to help you really do that. And if you don't have a place to do that in your home, if your home doesn't have like ah like a home office or a place where you can silo that activity, it's going to be really hard. It's really hard for a lot of people to you know to make that happen. It was really hard for me when when I first started doing it, when I first started my own business. and
00:26:45
Speaker
And all that, I tried to make a space within my house. We did have an extra bedroom. We're just two people. So we had an extra bedroom. And I made a little office in there. And I mean, working in the RV, it's actually incredibly hard. I don't have an extra room in my RV to make us an office. I mean, I do when I put my Oculus on and I have my virtual screens in there, that's kind of like my siloed office environment. But then again, I'm a lot like you, Heather, too.
00:27:12
Speaker
I have to be told to stop working at 11 o'clock at night, you know, put my computer away. And, you know, I'm just done because I, you know, I'm just like, do what I'm doing. And it doesn't bother me to have those hours, you know, I'm just clocking away because I want to get it done. And I don't care what time it is. And I don't care what I'm doing. Right. So but like I said, yeah, if you do want to have that separation, it does help to go somewhere and have it do the thing. It takes a lot of discipline to remote work and into it and to silo yourself off and do that because you will just You will just end up just working and people will end up resenting their employer for that, not realizing it's not really the employer's fault. It's kind of your fault. You have to figure that out for yourself and and make yourself disciplined to stop working and not really blame anybody else and just figure out a schedule for yourself and, you know, and give yourself that space. You know what I mean?
00:28:01
Speaker
Exactly. So I'm stealing this from somewhere on the internet, but you you guys are both like, Oh, this is, this is my dream job and stuff like that. And there was this thing on the internet where someone's like, you know, what's your dream job? And the response was, you know, I don't dream of labor. Yeah. Yeah. so in that Yeah. It's a great one. Sorry. It was just when you guys are all like, you'd love it so much. I'm a bit more mixed as in I do love a lot of what I do, but also like, yeah.
00:28:31
Speaker
it's still a job i still look at it as you know It has good parts and bad parts, and you should you know like parts of your job. At a certain point, it's good to turn off. but I actually actually have to say, which is weird, because how I do remote work is probably different than a lot of people, because you guys are all talking about you know you need to go to an office or you know just it's at that home or an office somewhere where you can just concentrate and focus. Actually, my working pattern is probably the worst out of that, because
00:29:04
Speaker
at home, you know, I'll do like an hour meeting on on teams and then I'll go do laundry. Like I do like the thing that all all employers have their worry about like, Oh no, they're not, they're not doing work. They're, they're walking their dog. They're, they're having mimosas in the morning or something like that.
00:29:24
Speaker
But you know, I don't also work like a straight eight hours and then clock off as well. ah So I do get the work done, but I also do like, I need that sort of breakup, especially after, you know, you've and and especially when you do a lot of meetings, a lot of remote meetings, those are incredibly draining. There's, there's a whole bunch of research behind it, but it's basically because you're not in the same place and it actually stresses out your body more to try to pay attention um remotely. So it's, it's much more of a marathon. So. Yeah.
00:29:54
Speaker
Yeah. Too much bourbon in my coffin. But but remote remote work does require more meetings. It does. I mean, if you're going to collaborate as a team. So that that's part of that was one of the subjects I was going to bring up. But I think let's let's take this to the next segment. We'll talk a little bit more about pros and cons and then talk about maybe specifically how remote work works in different stages of your career.
00:30:22
Speaker
Welcome back to CRM Archaeology Podcast Episode 297, and we are talking about remote work. And so far, we've been covering the pros and cons and the specifics about remote work with ah CRM.
00:30:38
Speaker
in general,
Positive Remote Work Culture
00:30:39
Speaker
and then kind of got through some of the pros and cons and decided that actually almost all the pros and cons listed can belong on both lists. So, you know, one thing that I'd like to talk a little bit about is, is we've already talked about the blurred lines of work-life balance. That that could be a whole other podcast in and of itself.
00:31:01
Speaker
But talking about face-to-face connection, and we touched a little bit about this in the second segment, about how, you know, there's, Duggan mentioned, there's even studies that, how difficult meeting, you know, remotely, how difficult that can be in connecting and just exhaustion of trying to connect in a way that isn't natural for humans to do. And then, you know, I think that In general, the workforce is going to kind of settle in and we won't have to have all these meetings. But that seems to be when remote works became a thing during COVID, everything was about meeting remotely ah and having all these meetings. And then when you have all these meetings, how are you supposed to get your work done?
00:31:47
Speaker
You can't get your work done when you're in a meeting, right? Because the idea behind having the meeting is connecting and being able to strategize, or there's various different reasons for meetings, but you really should be focusing on that meeting. So how are you going to get your actual work done? Right? So all the work you're talking about in these meetings, how are you supposed to get that done if you're spending all your time meeting?
00:32:07
Speaker
so I think you know the face-to-face connection, one thing that I find I really like the aspect of Teams or Zoom that has that chat fate feature. And during remote work, I did everything was in chat. All of our interactions in the team was in chat. Because for me, maybe I'm just old school, but doing an email, you have to be ah you have to write more formally. This back and forth isn't, you know with the chat, you can literally do one word.
00:32:37
Speaker
And, and it's just this back and forth, which mimics very much how you would be interacting in an office. So it was a lot more efficient. Right. Then, you know, so I, I like the chat feature and I think that, you know, we're all kind of figuring out different ways to be more efficient with remote work, but right now we're still stuck in this meeting. Hell nonstop meetings. And know all you do in chat though is, is private message others in chat about how shitty the meeting is.
00:33:07
Speaker
well I actually have a story about that, but I won't go into it. But there's so somebody got in a lot of trouble for doing that once. yeah oh yeah Because actually they weren't doing they were doing it over email. yeah And then they accidentally sent it to them then to the person they were saying the shitty things about. I'm sorry. yeah Anyway. Well, I just got a comment because it for the last five years, I've been working with a company. It's actually completely different. I've mentioned this before. It's a completely different industry from archaeology. and i kind of fell backward just into this whole industry with this company in Australia. And six months after I started working with them, they were actually purchased by a company here in North America. And so I've been working with both teams, North America and Australia. And I've only met actually two or three people on the North American team once, like three or four years ago, because we're RVing and we happen to show up in their offices. But I've only physically met and seen like, well, I've seen them. We've seen people on like,
00:34:05
Speaker
conference calls when they share their video a few times, but I've only physically met three of the people one time. Otherwise, it's a completely remote company, both North America and Australia. And in Australia, they actually had some offices, you know, pre-COVID, they they all had some offices a little bit, but they were spread out between Sydney, Perth, Melbourne, and a lot of people did remote work back then. But now after COVID, they actually remote work a lot more. And they they have some office space that some of them go into occasionally, but they have such a Great. Like remote culture and just like these like this culture team, they have an entire culture team that doesn't feel forced. You know what I mean? And on and on teams, which is that they used to have slack as their primary communication, but now they use teams because their parent company, which is in North America, he's a team. So they had to get rid of slack.
00:34:54
Speaker
But they have a few different like social channels that people actually use quite a bit again. It doesn't feel forced and people meet up for different things. There's a monthly meeting that has a lot of actually fun again, not feeling forced activities. They do a monthly trivia night. That's actually pretty fun. They have all these like social things and I feel like.
00:35:15
Speaker
I feel like they're all just friends, right? And I'm i'm included in all this stuff, even even being from North America. Some of it's not really in my time zone. Some of it is. And I join up when I can. But I feel like i I know all these people. And if I ever do get to go to Australia and hang out with them, even having never met them in five years, I feel like we'd be like long lost friends. And we would all just super get along, even though I've literally never met any of these people. I know what they look like. We're on video calls all the time.
00:35:41
Speaker
and And I feel like that's remote work done well because the simple fact that I've never met them, never been on the same continent in five years. and And most of the time our time zones don't even match up from a working standpoint. It's only in my evenings that our time zones match up. That's got to be a remote work done right. Because I feel like I really know these people and and they i I feel like they're friends, you know what I mean? and yeah And never been in the same room with them, never been on the same continent with them. And that that feels good.
00:36:09
Speaker
I mean, I've never met Doug in person. Right. I've only met him like once or twice. thats funny It feels so weird. Yeah, this is Chris was it Seattle and then you actually came to EA's in Glasgow. Yeah, Seattle and Scotland twice. Yeah. In 12 years. so i mean so Part of that is like, I actually, one, I sort of, I push it back on the idea that you need to have more meetings. um That's just poor management and you see it a lot. That's what you're doing. That's what's happening. Unfortunately. Yeah. No, no, no, it's definitely happening. And I think the hardest part for remote is not actually the individuals going back to, you know, with the caveat that some people, it works for them, some it doesn't.
00:36:56
Speaker
You know, it depends on your personality, depends on how it's going. Some people can do remote, some can't. There's that caveat. But for the most part, you know, the hardest part about remote is actually your manager and it's it's yeah or managing people. It's trust. Like you actually suddenly have to have a lot of trust to be able to say, and you have to sort of change how work's done. Like, you know, a lot of work traditionally is like you know you literally punch in, punch out, and so and your boss can walk by and see you doing something. It doesn't necessarily mean you were doing work, but you know they they get that reinforcement. and so As a a manager, because I also manage remote teams, it's it's hard because you know you'll give a ah task and then it'll be like two or three days and you're like,
00:37:40
Speaker
Because you cannot really stand over someone's shoulder and check on them. You're like, is it happening? Is it going to happen? And you really do have to have trust in your team and be able to say, and that's why you have so many meetings that people basically switched from, I could go and I could, no one's going to be able to see this, but I'm doing air quotes. you You could see work to now having to trust that. And so people add a bunch of meetings so they could basically look over your shoulder again. And it just kills, it it makes remote work.
00:38:11
Speaker
tedious, it makes it stressful. is a yeah inefficient and yeah so I would say like a lot of people's experience with remote work is actually going to be quite negative and they might actually enjoy it, but you know you have to do it right. And part of that is also like,
00:38:29
Speaker
social, you also need to be able to just have meetings where going back to what Chris was saying is you do social parts. So like I have, I have sort of like colleagues slash friends who basically we can have a phone. We'll have an hour long meeting, but like 55 minutes of that is like, yo, how's your kids?
00:38:46
Speaker
you know It's it's that that water cooler talk that you used to get in an office, yeah you know all the normal archeology stuff, all that sort of after after digging drinks and, you oh, let's talk about pain, wherever the thing is, or did you see this organization did that, or yada, yada. But it's all that. It's that's it's that sort of human element. And then you know in five minutes, we knock out whatever business we need to get done. But we build relationships that way. And again,
00:39:15
Speaker
As a manager, you'd look at that and you'd be like, Oh my God, you just wasted 55 minutes. But it actually really helps. It helps build morale. It helps build cohesion. It's the way to do it. I think.
00:39:28
Speaker
Yeah, that does. I mean, that's what we kind of do here, you know, like before we record, you know, we kind of sit and like, you know, yeah talk amongst ourselves and see what's up. Although remote meetings, man, they are the awful trick of every middle manager out there. Right. Because it's so easy for a middle manager to go, see, I do three meetings every week. I have more productive, you know, and it's just all a waste of everyone's time.
00:39:52
Speaker
And I do think that it does, just like Doug was saying, there are some things that are missed. You're looking at somebody, but you're like looking at a picture. So think about if you had a picture of everybody in your team in a frame on your desk and you're talking to them. Exactly. You know, so it's like.
00:40:15
Speaker
I think that people, first of all, I think a remote work can really bring out sometimes the worst in people. Yeah. I think it takes a lot of work to bring out the best in people. It does. and it And that's exactly what Doug is saying. You have to have a good manager. Managers have got to be Good at at this remote work there needs to be there needs to be training just on how to be a manager with remote work and You know, I think a lot of times like Doug was saying is that you know and and Andrew when you have a remote
00:40:47
Speaker
work meeting, it's just to say that they've done it. And it's also, there's no strategy. There's no plan about how you're going to implement the work.
Career Advancement in Remote Work
00:40:57
Speaker
It's just a meeting and let's just see what happens, you know? yeah And you have to be much more organized as a manager and you have to have realistic expectations. um Before we finish, I really do want to talk about managing expectations for people that are starting in the workforce. Because I think that we're doing it to service if we don't talk about that portion of remote work. Totally. You know, I have people that apply to jobs all the time and they say they only want remote work. And I
00:41:31
Speaker
want to sit down and explain to them that there are some things I think hybrid. Absolutely. i I wouldn't expect somebody to come in unless the only thing they're doing is lab work. Right. If I'm hiring them as a lab tech and the artifacts need to stay in the lab, then of course they're going to have to come in. Right. Yeah.
00:41:51
Speaker
But there's so many other roles, right? That, that could be remote. And I especially just, this is not a manager speaking and it is somebody with managerial experience, but is me speaking to a young professional who wants to make a career of this. When you are out of sight, you are out of mind. And whether that's right, wrong, or indifferent, that is the reality of it. And so if you want to make a career of this, you know there needs to be some interaction in person with the person who has the ability to
00:42:30
Speaker
to promote your career and there are some things that are not going to be learned remotely right oh my god opinioning of your of your career, I think remote work is a real disadvantage. Totally. You need to have that interaction and those are their thing. You need to have access to those impromptu conversations that are not going to happen remote. When you're walking to past each other, going to promote the bathroom, you know, or your whatever, going to career. the coffee bar, And there are these some things that are not going to be learned remotely. Right. Oh, interactions my God. happen and these connections happen. Remote work
00:43:05
Speaker
interactions have to be on purpose. they They don't happen incidentally. And so that is something that somebody who's more more career mature can make those connections. But as a new person, when you have no interaction with anyone, a new person at a job and a new person in the career, it's very hard to make those connections without those incidents.
00:43:29
Speaker
Right. Yeah. You know, I think there's a glimmer of hope, though, because I was always I was really worried post covid that my that my like all day Saturday archaeology classes would have really terrible enrollment because everyone was saying like, oh, the young people, they're just on their screens. That's all they want. But I noticed the opposite.
00:43:45
Speaker
Like my Saturday on ground all day classes are more full than they've ever been. And that's not me going, oh, because I'm so great. I think it's a function of a lot of young people needing face to face and wanting face to face and specifically saying, I don't want to be online because we have to remember they they grew up in covid and they had like their entire 11th grade online. They were not happy about that.
00:44:10
Speaker
You know, so I think that I think there will be some backlash. I think it's already starting on some of this online stuff. I don't know. I think online is here to stay, but I don't know if online is here to grow. I've been in a circumstance where the.
00:44:25
Speaker
Environment the work environment was not good It was and so you have people you have strong personalities and you have followers just like anything in life, right? You have leaders you have followers and not all leaders are good leaders And i'm not talking about leaders who have been put in a position of leadership i'm talking about their personality as a leader And there are personalities that are followers. There's managers that have a follower personality, right? and When you have a toxic leader in a, and I'm using air quotes too, in a work environment. Stop talking about me. Okay. Enough. It permeates throughout the team and.
00:45:06
Speaker
The, it's really important who you hire. And we're always thinking about that. Is this person, I know we always say, is it a good culture fit? No, it's, I'm not talking about a culture fit. Like does that person willing to subscribe to these deep different beliefs? I'm talking about, are they going to be able to gel into this group? And are they going to be a positive influence in this group? And then you have some people that they could go into a toxic work environment and become toxic. They can go into a.
00:45:34
Speaker
Wonderful positive work environment and be positive person and then you have some people that it doesn't matter where you put them You could put them in the best environment possible. They're still gonna be toxic and so being able to connect and being able to really figure out who's going to be positive in a in an environment and going to promote that positivity in the environment is a it's essential to building a good team. And I do think that remote work sometimes it it's gonna be a challenge to create
00:46:08
Speaker
that sense of team, I do not subscribe at all to family, work being family. It's not, it's not family, it's different. But you still have to work on having a a good work environment and having people that are going to, they're gonna contribute positively to that work environment. And I think it's much more difficult to make that happen. It just has to be,
00:46:34
Speaker
You're just going to have to work on it or if everybody is only remote. It's just the connection's different. I was actually going to loop back to something you said earlier. It was about the whole you don't get that sort of you know out of mind, out of sight. But I would say, and what you said something which is really important, which was you have to be very specific. You you have to go out and you have to make those connections. You have to, in remote, you have to do that extra effort to have those conversations.
00:47:03
Speaker
But I think that's a general, it's a good practice for everyone, especially anyone starting out in a career, even if you are in person.
Building Relationships in Remote Work
00:47:11
Speaker
Because there' there'll be a lot of people who will end up disadvantaged from that sort of work bro culture, as it were. I use bro in the California sense of everyone's a bro, regardless of your gender. But you know,
00:47:25
Speaker
you end up with people, like especially if you have kids, you know you have to leave like exactly to make that school run. And so you miss out at like, you know oh, everyone went out for drinks after work, yada, yada. And so you miss that sort of interactions.
00:47:39
Speaker
I think there's a lot of people who are excluded. and need to be Even if you're in person, you need to be thinking about that. so Again, there there's the whole different cultural thing. you know if If you can't connect with your boss, like I don't know if your boss is into, I'll use the British thing. If they're really into cricket and you' you're just not, like you're going to be excluded because you can't talk about cricket because God, it's such a boring sport.
00:48:02
Speaker
but you know it's just and this is I'm making up an example here. My boss actually is not into cricket, it's football. But again, it's one of those things where like if you can't make that connection, if you don't have that that cultural background, you're going to be disadvantaged anyway. So you have to be doing that extra work. And you should be thinking about that in your career through the whole time is, how do I make those connections how do I get noticed? How am I building a portfolio? and That's especially relevant for if you're remote. um I'd actually flip that back to our earlier conversation of there's advantages as yeah if you are working remote, it's easier to switch jobs. and If you go into a job with the idea of you know I need to be building a portfolio, I need to be able to show that I've done that, you may not get promoted inside the company. But you know if you're able to do work remote,
00:48:56
Speaker
That's, you know, you have a wider range. you You could work anywhere. You could work in Australia, as Chris has pointed out, all that great stuff. So, you know, I think. If you have the right mindset, there can actually be a lot more advantages to remote work and the same skills you need for remote work you also will need for in-person unless you get lucky and just, you know, click with your boss and become the best of friends and then they just take you along and promote you as you go along. um But if not, you know, I think all that stuff you should be doing anyways.
00:49:33
Speaker
Yeah, i I agree. I think the the one, and this is me talking to managers, nobody should be only connecting with somebody because they have the same likes and they, and I know that that's unrealistic to think that that's not going to be the case because that's the case a lot, but that's again, lazy management, you know.
00:49:51
Speaker
We in the office that I work in right now, we have people from all with all different interests and all different areas that they came from in life and different age, you know, age cohorts. And so, you know, connecting with people, I actually find it more interesting when somebody's different than me.
00:50:08
Speaker
It gets more. There's more to talk about really, but that means that you have to be interested in other people, right? Not just in what you're interested in. And so I think just a few things and we could call. I totally think we should do another podcast on this because we just. Just tickled everything. We didn't really get in deep, deep, but I think, you know, two things managers.
00:50:29
Speaker
really need to be, I know for me, it's difficult because I have a very large workload and then on top of that, I'm a manager. So I think in ah in this business, we're so our workloads are so heavy that it's difficult to be a good manager because you just don't have the time. Even working the amount of hours that I work, which is pretty insane, I i still wish I had so much more time to be a really good manager.
00:50:54
Speaker
And then you know we need to really start focusing for remote work on some really great strategies. What are the best strategies? And those strategies are going to change over time as the workforce changes. And then for those that are in mid-career, I think you know people need to not just say, I'm either a manager or I'm not. Everybody should be a mentor. Everybody should be interested in mentoring the next person.
00:51:19
Speaker
That's not because you know you're supposed to be doing your manager's job. It's because it benefits you. The more that other people know, the more that the and entry level you know workforce knows and learns, the less work that you have to do because they're not capable of doing it. And so helping mentor and lead these you know the people that were where you were at some point,
00:51:42
Speaker
is just gonna benefit you in in the long run. And then, and also it's just the right thing to do. Lastly, for those that are entering the workforce, just understand that this remote work model, it it takes a lot of incentive on your part to be part of that workforce and to learn. You're not gonna have the best managers all the time that are willing to really put a lot of effort into training you.
00:52:09
Speaker
You're going to have to go and make those opportunities for yourself and so you have to know who you are personally and professionally and that will change over time. but You're going to have to really understand it so that you can understand where you're going to be best. Is it going to be the hybrid model? Is it going to be in in the office all the time or is it going to be remote? I really encourage those that are starting out in their in their career to really start at least a hybrid model and be in the office where you can connect to really get an understanding of what it's like to be in the office, what it's like to interact with people face to face. And anyway, I think we'll do another podcast. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
00:52:53
Speaker
That's it for another episode of the CRM Archaeology Podcast. Links to some of the items mentioned on the show are in the show notes for this podcast, which can be found at www dot.arcpodnet dot.com slash CRMARC Podcast. Please comment and share anywhere you see the show. If you'd like us to answer a question on a future episode, email us. Use the contact form on the website or just email chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Support the show and the network at arcpodnet.com slash members. Get some swag and extra content while you're there. Send us show suggestions and interview suggestions.
00:53:23
Speaker
We want this to be a resource for field technicians everywhere, and we want to know what you want to know about. Thanks to everyone for joining me this week. Thanks also to the listeners for tuning in, and we'll see you in the field. Goodbye.
00:53:38
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.