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Extra Free Episode - The Interview - Thomas Zilliacus: "Time For Suning To Sell Inter Milan, Glazers Still Own Man Utd" (Ep. 412)
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The Italian Football Podcast is delighted to interview Finnish entrepreneur and businessman Thomas Zilliacus on everything from his failed bids to buy Inter Milan and Manchester United, the Red Notice issued by Interpol for his arrest as well as how he believes football clubs can become financially sustainable and much, much more.
Ps. As stated in the interview, please find the link to the first interview Nima did with Thomas Zilliacus in September 2023, which was of a much more introductory nature:
https://sempreinter.com/2023/09/11/exclusive-thomas-zilliacus-no-negotiations-suning-inter-milan-but-interested/
Every extra interview episode + every Monday weekend review episode of The Italian Football Podcast is free for all.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian Football Podcast. Hello everybody and welcome back to another interview episode of the Italian Football Podcast. My name is Niemata Valeruzzari and today I am very delighted and happy to be joined by someone who has been
00:00:17
Speaker
quite a lot, mentioned quite a bit in the media the last couple of years with regards to football. He was linked with a very much publicised takeover bid with Manchester United and also after that he's been linked with buying into Milan. However, that all came to a ground grinding halt because of news that he was in legal trouble and since then a lot of English speaking, mainly English speaking media have
00:00:43
Speaker
been reporting on this and he feels, as he's told me, offer that some of that is factually incorrect.
Manchester United Bid: Entry and Withdrawal
00:00:50
Speaker
But before we get to all of that, let me introduce him. Welcome to the Italian football podcast, Thomas Ziliakos. How are you doing today? Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here and I'm doing well. Thank you.
00:01:04
Speaker
So I did interview you just for full clarity for Sempre Inter about a year ago, or yeah, it was last, I think it was about a year ago, where we spoke about, you know, your background and where you grew up and your story in Singapore and Brazil. And I'm going to link to that interview if people want to read about your background. So we're not going to dwell too much on that. But instead, I want to begin with talking about the Manchester United takeover bid.
00:01:32
Speaker
How close were you to actually buying Manchester United? I wasn't very close simply because I came into the race so late that the RAIN Group, the bank that was conducting the sale on behalf of the Glazers, apparently felt that there was no point in
00:01:55
Speaker
in putting me on the same starting line as the other two main bidders, so Jim Ratcliffe and Sheikh Yazim. So I was never given access to the data room and I put in a framework bid and I said to Rain, I would like to proceed to get access to the data room so I can put in a much more detailed exact bid.
00:02:18
Speaker
I wasn't given the access to the data room and as a result of that my bid was on a very general basis and as you know I then withdrew in April when in my opinion the whole process became a bit of a farce where bidders were asked to just
00:02:38
Speaker
putting new bits all the time and i said look i have put in a bit i have asked for access to the data room i haven't been given it so if that is the case then then i will not proceed with with yet another bit
00:02:51
Speaker
I understand. So you kind of answered my second question about why you pulled out of
Ownership and Club Preferences
00:02:58
Speaker
the race. However, I want to look a little bit forward now. Do you think Man United are now in good hands under the new part owner, Sir Jim Ratcliffe? And what's your perception on that entire takeover?
00:03:10
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's a very good question because when you say, are they now in good hands, I would argue that they are still in the same hands, which is the glazers. They still own 75%. And so Jim Ratcliffe has 25%. My understanding is from what I have been reading in the media that he has been given
00:03:29
Speaker
He has been given, if not full authority, but at least the main authority as comes to the footballing side of things in running the team. That I think is positive news. He is, as far as I understand, a lifelong fan of the club.
00:03:45
Speaker
He lives in England, he understands football. So his ability to build the club and to help the club and to help in a way that the fans like is of course far superior to the Glazers who apparently never really took any big interest in the club and its well-being and just saw it as a very lucrative financial investment. Yeah, yeah.
00:04:13
Speaker
Other than Man United and Inter, have there been any other clubs who you've thought about buying in recent years and are you comfortable mentioning them by name and how far have you gone in those talks?
00:04:30
Speaker
Well, I've been contacted by a large number of clubs who have said, look, why don't you buy this club? Instead, it's a lot cheaper than Manchester United or Inter Milan, and it has a lot of potential. And my answer to all of these have been, thank you very much for contacting me.
00:04:45
Speaker
I'm not interested. The reason is that I am not one of those investors who want to buy a trophy asset, and I call it a trophy asset because a lot of the club owners are very, very wealthy people with, in my understanding, pretty limited understanding of football and backrunning football.
00:05:09
Speaker
It has become almost like a new fashion to buy a football club. Earlier days it was enough to buy a new super yacht or a fancy fleet of sport cars. Now it seems to be almost a fad to own a football club or a sport club.
00:05:25
Speaker
I have zero interest in that. I have been involved in football all my life, so for me, football is a lot of football. It's fascinating, but I don't need a trophy asset. I have been interested to get involved in big clubs simply because one of my companies, Champion Circle, has developed a package or a platform rather
00:05:49
Speaker
with eight different services, all aimed at providing for the fans very attractive services, but also at the same time services that the fans, because of the attractiveness of what they are being offered, will pay for.
00:06:06
Speaker
And we have done some marketing tests with some of the top clubs in the world. I can't tell their names because it's confidential, but some of the top clubs, some of the best names in the world. And we have achieved, with just one of the eight services, a revenue of over US$400 per annum.
00:06:28
Speaker
from those fans who participated and who were willing to pay for the services. So if you calculate it, Manchester United is claimed to have maybe up to a billion fans. So 400 times a billion is 400 billion. Inter Milan has maybe half of that, but that's still 200 billion. So I believe that with the big clubs and with the big global fan base, Champion Circle can generate
00:06:57
Speaker
very significant revenues.
00:06:59
Speaker
But that requires that it's a big club with a big global fan base because these global fans cannot go to the games. For them to even if you sit in Shanghai or in Lagos or somewhere, you can't even dream about going to Old Trafford or going to San Siro to see the game. But if we can offer services that enable those global fans to be involved in the club that they love and breathe and live,
00:07:28
Speaker
24-7 in a meaningful way, then we give them something which they love. And at the same time, we generate significant revenues for the clubs. And that is the background. These are two clubs that I love, Manchester United and Inter. I've loved them since I was a teenager. And I want to participate in building them into the best clubs in the world, which, of course, they are very close to already, but they can become even better. And that is the background. And that's why I said no to the other clubs. Yeah.
00:07:58
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. I want to talk a little bit about some reports that have been surfaced. We're going to get back to your ideas and what you want to do because they are very interesting. And I want to pick your brain a little bit about that. But I want to touch back a little bit on recent reports in mainly British or English speaking mainstream media outlets who've reported you in a way that you're not very comfortable with.
Media Mischaracterization and Legal Issues
00:08:24
Speaker
Has there been a particular report that you felt has been particularly egregious? Do you have any examples of what they said that you feel was not incorrect and that you want to set the record straight?
00:08:40
Speaker
Yeah. Well, look, thank you very much for giving me that opportunity. There is an old proverb, Arab proverb, which is in use in many European countries, which is that, you know, the dogs bark, but the caravan moves on. And that is something which I have gotten used to throughout my life. When you do things that are public, when you do things that are successful, then there's always people who are envious and who are jealous and who want to find
00:09:05
Speaker
holes who want to criticise even if there is no basis for it. And unfortunately, that has been the case also in my bids for these two clubs. So yes, there have been reports which, in my view, have been, you know,
00:09:21
Speaker
unnecessarily nasty. I have no problem with the journalist who poses critical questions. Actually, I welcome that. I think that's what the journalist should do. But when you make insinuations, when you make claims that simply are not true or are baseless, then I think it is not good journalism anymore.
00:09:41
Speaker
I don't want to go into naming too many, you know, examples, but I can say so much that there was one that perhaps in my view was the most, how should I say, unprofessional is my view on it. And that was an article in The Athletic, which I think it was headlined something like the nobody who bid for Manchester United or whatever. Well, with all due respect, I don't think I'm really a nobody.
00:10:07
Speaker
I might not be well-known to a 20-something-year-old journalist out of the UK, but I think I set my mark in business around the world for the last 40 years. That was an article which was really based on, like I said, insinuations.
00:10:26
Speaker
Things that just borderline to something where you could file a lawsuit for defamation, but not quite, I think, over the line. In any case, I don't want to spend my time on filing lawsuits against journalists who get pleasure from writing these kind of stories.
00:10:46
Speaker
Yeah, they are unnecessary. But life moves on. I think most people, they read it and then they forget about it in a few days. So one shouldn't get hooked up on them too much oneself either.
00:11:02
Speaker
I agree. I think that's a healthy way to look at it. But are there any particular examples that you would like to set the record straight that you feel were mischaracterized, if not defamed you? Well, I think first of all, one of the things which I have been unhappy with is indeed the insinuations that I have not been serious with these bits.
00:11:29
Speaker
I am dead serious with these bids. But also, because I come from a very different angle than most other bidders, I think that, for example, the saying, oh, how can he bid? He doesn't have ex-billions. Well, I may not have ex-billions, and I actually have been very clear with the fact that when the press has called me a billionaire, I'm not a billionaire, but I have enough assets to be able to build consortiums that can
00:11:58
Speaker
table billions in offers. The world is full of money that is looking for investment opportunities and I have a pretty good track record in building successful businesses. So when I present the case of how I can make a club like Inter Milan or a club like Manchester United very profitable and through that build a club that is the number one club in the world, then investors become interested.
00:12:27
Speaker
And that is different from a multi-billionaire who wants to find a new trophy and therefore is willing to use his own money to buy a club. But like I said earlier, often with not too much understanding about how to run a football club and how to make it profitable. So those are the kind of claims that I don't like. There have, of course, been other things as well, which relating to, for example,
00:12:53
Speaker
the completely absurd stories in public about my challenges in Singapore.
00:13:02
Speaker
They are simply, I'm sorry it's the right word and I'd be happy to tell you a bit more about it if you want. But that's like out of a Kafka book almost, I can't understand it. Okay, well let's go to those legal issues then, because I think they're far more interesting than gossiping about pseudo-journalists trying to make a name for themselves and attacking you without any basis for that.
00:13:25
Speaker
Let's talk about that. There were news coming out, but the Interpol had an arrest warrant for you. Now, if I'm not mistaken, you're in an EU country right now, and we're not talking from a prison cell.
00:13:45
Speaker
And as far as I'm aware, the EU cooperates with Interpol. So I want to ask, was there an arrest warrant from Interpol for you? What's the status of that right now? Well, I think before I answer that question, but before we go into that specific, I would like to give a little bit of background on what it is all about in Singapore. So I co-founded a social e-commerce company,
00:14:10
Speaker
long before it became fashionable. It was in 2008, so it was in the very early days of Facebook and Amazon and all of these things. I co-founded a company which combines social media, e-commerce, mobile games and payments on one single platform. There is a Chinese company called Tencent, which I don't know how much it's worth today, but last time I looked, it was around US$500 billion, which has a very similar platform. I was not aware of it when we co-founded this company in Singapore, which was called Yuzu.
00:14:40
Speaker
But anyway, that company was listed on the Singapore Stock Exchange in 2014. Now, we took a different route than other companies in growing internationally. So instead of spending billions and billions, which we at that time didn't even have,
00:14:56
Speaker
on trying to set up offices all over the world ourselves and marketing them. We took what I call the McDonald's route, which meant that we sold licenses to franchise entrepreneurs in each market and they took on the role
00:15:13
Speaker
of marketing in their territory. It was a very tailored platform. We made it in the local language in each country. And just like McDonald's allows you to add to the menu of Big Macs and cheeseburgers, local things that attract the local market, we had exactly the same approach. So we had a local, the local entrepreneur could add local services to what we offered globally. This was very successful and we ended up having 63
00:15:42
Speaker
franchisees in 25 countries who are running local operations. Now, in order to maximize the benefits for our shareholders, we decided to instead of taking a cash fee from these entrepreneurs, we took a stake in their company. So we said, look, we want 40% ownership in your company, because we believe that if you run it well, that 40% can become
00:16:07
Speaker
100 times more valuable for our shareholders than any cash fee that you could do or we could ask you to pay now. The dispute is about the value of those shares. So we use the world's biggest audit firm, Deloitte, to do a valuation on those shares. And those were, of course, all startups. So it was based on something called discounted cash flow, which is
00:16:30
Speaker
future earnings, what they are expected to be. Deloitte did it for us, and I want to underline this. Deloitte did it, not us. And Deloitte came up with a value. Now, two, three, whatever years later, all of a sudden, the stock exchange in Singapore says, oh, we think that those valuations may have been wrong.
00:16:49
Speaker
Now, evaluation is always an estimate. If you think about the, let's say, house, one value I can value it at 1 million, another value I can say, no, it's worth 1.2 and a third, no, it's worth 800,000. It's the same with shares that are based on assumptions on future earnings. So there is no absolute truth. So this was simply a, how should I say, administrative issue about which valuation is right. Now, normally a stock exchange would
00:17:17
Speaker
discuss with the company and come to a conclusion. But for some reason in Singapore, that was not the route that the stock exchange took. Instead, they asked the Singapore police force to investigate whether we had valued these shares wrongly. And that investigation, believe it or not, has gone on for six years. And for six years, which has destroyed the company,
00:17:41
Speaker
Now then, all of a sudden, out of the blue, they decide to issue, and here I go back to your original question, they decide to ask Interpol to put me on a red notice list. Now, this red notice list is for very serious offenders, people who have committed murders or rapes or whatever, and are fleeing from justice.
00:18:07
Speaker
I have not committed anything. I have not even been charged with anything. And I'm certainly not avoiding, on the contrary, I have said to the Singapore police ever since this started, please get this investigation finished so I can explain how this was all done and show that we have done nothing wrong. But we have not been given that opportunity. So the reason now that they have done this is because they say, I have refused to return to Singapore, which is completely untrue. I have not even been asked
00:18:36
Speaker
to return to Singapore before they issued this. Nobody even asked me. I read about it in the papers myself. And if somebody asked me to come to Singapore, I said, I'd love to come to Singapore because I want to show what we have done because it was all done correctly. So it's an absolutely, like I said, absurd situation. And my lawyers have, of course, contacted Interpol and showed Interpol that I should never have been on that list in the first place. Unfortunately, Interpol moves very slowly. So I have been told it may take even months before one is removed from a list.
00:19:05
Speaker
But i know that i should never have been on that list and everybody everybody who knows anything about this case knows it knows it as well. But i mean if you are on a on one of those list then surely they should be a warrant for your arrest out and you should probably be in prison now no.
00:19:21
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's very unpleasant to be on that list, but I mean, I think Intepo, which is headquartered in France, also understands that although a member country can ask. And unfortunately, there is a lot of information, a lot of news about this. If you Google it, you'll find that Intepo has been criticized for blatant misuse of this red notice. There are countries who
00:19:45
Speaker
you know, who put people on this list simply because they don't like the people and the people that should never have been on that list in the first place. But Interpol seems that the system doesn't really vet, you know, if a member country says, I want to put X on this list,
00:20:00
Speaker
you go on the list and then that person has to appeal to Interpol to be removed and that can take up to nine months. But I think in the meantime also to be on this list is not really an issue about somebody looking for everybody on the list, it's rather so that
00:20:16
Speaker
CountryX has said, if you come across this person, can you please, on our behalf, have him arrested because we want him. But like I said, in my case, I have not even been charged with anything. It's only that they said, under Singapore law, and I think they have informed that they want to charge the entire board of the company
00:20:36
Speaker
because of this valuation issue that we should have been more careful, which again I respectfully disagree with. I think we were extremely careful. But it's about reading the charges which under Singapore law should happen in Singapore. I have said I unfortunately, because of doctors orders, should not be flying to Singapore because I am.
00:20:57
Speaker
I have long COVID health problems, but I would be happy to have the charges read to me anywhere else, for example, in a Singapore embassy, anywhere in Europe, which by definition, the Singapore embassy is Singapore soil. So I have said, look, I'm not avoiding. I'm on the contrary. I want to know what the charges are because I want to be able to.
00:21:18
Speaker
to explain why those charges are baseless. So that's the situation at the moment. So I mean, I'm in touch with the absurd thing is that I'm in touch with the Singapore police force all the time by email and letters and so forth. Not letters, but emails and
00:21:36
Speaker
and other digital means. So it's an absurd situation that on one hand is this public perception that I'm avoiding something and nobody knows where I am when the fact that I'm in touch with them all the time and communicating and saying, please, let's find a solution on how you can let me know what charges you have come up with so that we can move forward.
00:21:59
Speaker
Absolutely. If I may say, it's a little bit different than from what you and I are used to in Europe. Singapore is a country which I admire in many ways. I've lived there for a long, long time. I'm still a permanent resident of Singapore. I think it's a fantastic country. But there are some peculiarities in how certain things are done which are very different from how they are done in Europe. For example,
00:22:26
Speaker
Basically, there is a total immunity for the police. So whatever the police says or does, they are immune. You cannot sue a police, which you could do in Sweden or in Finland or in Italy or wherever. If the police says something which is not true, then you can sue them. But in Singapore, you can't. And in this case, like I said, they have claimed that I have refused to come back to Singapore when de facto they haven't even asked me to come back to Singapore. And I wouldn't have refused if they said so.
00:22:53
Speaker
Well, I mean, if we talk now more broadly, what is the what's the legal status? I mean, are you under investigation? You said you haven't been charged. Is there like I said, it's a six it's a six year investigation, which is also absolutely crazy. I mean, I go back to what I said earlier, if the stock exchange felt that
00:23:13
Speaker
the way Deloitte had valued the shares was wrong. Then, of course, they should have contacted us and said, look, we think this may be wrong. And then we would have found a solution. We would have lowered the valuation or we would have done whatever. I mean, it's just an asset sitting on the balance sheet.
00:23:29
Speaker
Whether it's worth 1 million or 1.2 or 800,000 doesn't really affect the company too much. I mean, we live in a world where digital companies, most of them run massive losses for many, many years and they're worth billions of dollars. So that was not an issue that would have been any challenge for us.
00:23:48
Speaker
And that's why it was so absurd that the Stock Exchange asked the police to investigate what the company that I co-founded did after that was wrote several letters to the Singapore Stock Exchange asking for a meeting so that the issues could be solved.
00:24:03
Speaker
they didn't even get a reply which also i find very strange so so so you know it's it's so like i said investigation is finished now and i believe that the the decision is that they they believe that the that value should have been differently and therefore they want the court to decide who is right and who is wrong.
00:24:21
Speaker
I can live with that. I'm fine with that. I have no problem. Like I said, I would love to go to court to present all the evidence showing that we did everything exactly correctly. Because valuations is not a legal issue.
00:24:36
Speaker
What is your financial issue? Well, like I said, everybody will have a different opinion on what the exact value is. If I sell something for a hundred dollars, then it is a hundred dollars. And if I say I got 110, then I am lying. Or if I say I got 90, then I am lying. But if I get shares, which
00:24:57
Speaker
a start-up share where we do a valuation based on what we believe the earnings may be over the next five years, then there is no absolute truth. Then there is nobody who can say, well, this expert is right and this expert is wrong. It's simply not possible to do it.
00:25:15
Speaker
I mean, to put it in a football context, from what I deduce from what you're saying, it's the similar situation of what a football player is worth. I mean, at the end of the day, a football player is only worth what the selling club is willing to accept and the buying club is willing to pay.
00:25:32
Speaker
You are so right. It's exactly that. So as precisely as you say, there is no absolute correct value for, say, Lautaro Martinez. One club may think he's worth 100 million. Another one says he's worth 60. And the third one says no, he's worth 150. Same for a club. If I want to buy Inter Milan, there is no absolute price. It's about what I believe it is worth.
00:25:54
Speaker
because of future earnings and what the seller believes it's worth. You are so right. This is an exactly similar situation here where, like I said, we had 63 company shares in our assets and we valued them, or actually we didn't, and I think that's also important to underline. Deloitte.
00:26:14
Speaker
valued and created a formula that we then used going forward. So we use the best, the Lloyd is the biggest audit firm in the world. We use the best possible export we could find in order to make sure that it was as good as it was possible. So I find this whole thing really, like I said, absurd. And I would have wished that the stock exchange would have approached this in a very different way. And you know, look, I have no criticism towards
00:26:43
Speaker
the Singapore police because they did their job. They were told by the Stock Exchange to investigate that they investigated. The fact that it took six years I think shows the complexity and the challenges that they also realized that they had in the fact that there is no absolute correct value. So that's why I would love to have a chance to present
00:27:07
Speaker
our thoughts why we use Deloitte, how Deloitte did their valuation and I'm sure that we are going to be found correct. I want to ask you about that because I mean just finally have you had any indication of a time frame of when you can actually get to court because I mean if it's been six year investigation now you say the investigation has been concluded surely now
00:27:29
Speaker
in any legal system it's up to the prosecution to decide whether to file charges and move on. The decision is to file charges so actually the CEO of the company, he's a local Singaporean, he has already been charged
00:27:45
Speaker
And he has already attended court hearings, which are ongoing. But they have decided, in addition to the CEO, to also charge the chief financial officer. So obviously, evaluations is something that the chief financial officer is in charge of. He then reports it to the CEO, the CEO then reports it to the audit committee of the board, and the audit committee of the board reports it to the board.
00:28:08
Speaker
who then puts the stamp of approval. I was chairman of the board, so what they have decided there is in addition to charging the CFO and the CEO, also all the board members will be charged for, I assume, valuing shares wrongly.
00:28:27
Speaker
or me being careless or whatever. But again, like I said, I don't know what the charges are, so I can't say, but I assume it's similar to what the CEO basically has been charged with being careless. And have we reached the verdict stage of any of those legal proceedings? No, no, no verdict has been given and I'm not privy to whether he has agreed
00:28:53
Speaker
do you feel guilty of whether he's challenging it i i don't know but that's a completely different thing again because the ceo in any company he is in charge of the operations if he's operationally responsible the board sets the strategic
00:29:09
Speaker
You know framework for the company appoints the ceo but this the board doesn't get involved in the details of any operations including valuation so that's why i also feel that that even if he would have been careless which i do not believe he was. Then i don't really see how that would mean that the board also would then be.
00:29:34
Speaker
Seen the same way because the board's role is is completely different different Yeah, but I mean that's that's a matter of law and that needs to be litigated and I'm sure exactly and I like I said I have I have no problem whatsoever in in going to going to court and and and and attending it and presenting our facts and
00:29:55
Speaker
If even after that, the court says, no, you were careless then. So be it that we move on. I mean, it's like I said, it's not exactly a question about murder or rape or serious fraud. It's about whether a value of X was correct or whether it should have been X plus one or X minus one.
00:30:12
Speaker
And whether or not, from what I understand, whether or not the correct procedures were applied when making that evaluation, which makes it more correct. And that is a very good point, because there again, going back to what I already said, I mean, you can't, you can't, if you have the biggest audit firm in the world doing the valuations, then you can't really go any higher. And and already when this whole investigation started, way back in 2018, I had Singapore's best lawyer who has been, you know, by by by
00:30:41
Speaker
Third parties elected as a top lawyer in Singapore, he wrote a lengthy document of 30 plus pages to the Singapore police who was investigating it, showing that not only had I followed all the right steps and procedures, either facto had gone, as he wrote, way out of what could have been reasonably expected in order to make sure that everything was correct. So we had
00:31:07
Speaker
We had, you know, in addition to Deloitte, we had KPMG and other big four involved in this. And we had the best law firms in Singapore looking through everything. And we had a big investment bank, Macquarie Capital, going through everything. So we had all the experts you can imagine, basically, because I said, look, I want to be sure that we have not left a single stone unturned in doing our job in the best way possible. And that's what we did. So, I mean, against that backdrop, once again,
00:31:35
Speaker
To me, it's absurd to have this whole thing investigated by the police when it could have been settled. And by the way, in the meantime, a company was destroyed that could have been worse.
00:31:48
Speaker
Ah, I don't know. I don't even want to think about how much it could have been worth. But I can tell you that there was another company also based in Singapore that basically had exactly the same platform as what we had. They, maybe we should have done the same thing instead of listing in Singapore, they listed in New York on the New York Stock Exchange. In November 2022, they were valued at $197 billion US dollars, with the same platform, but with only a fraction of the market.
00:32:17
Speaker
markets that we were in. So one could well argue that if we had been allowed to just continue, we would have been worth the same. Having said that, Singapore companies or companies on the Singapore Stock Exchange rarely reach those kind of valuations. But hey, I would have been happy with 10% of that.
00:32:36
Speaker
Okay, but I mean, let's move away from this a little bit because I mean, I know that there've been other legal issues as well, which I know
Investor Confidence and Inter Milan Talks
00:32:42
Speaker
you resolved. There was a case in New York, which you settled out of court and there was no admission of guilt.
00:32:44
Speaker
So
00:32:51
Speaker
And so I want to move away a little bit from all of that because that's been resolved. But if I can just say on that one, because that is such a perfect example of how there are always opportunities to see success and they want to have a share of it. So the whole New York thing was something that
00:33:07
Speaker
I was not involved in any way. It was one of my co-founders of the company who sold some shares to some investor in New York. Those investors were unhappy then with some things that had happened there. They filed a lawsuit in New York where they did not only sue this seller,
00:33:29
Speaker
But they sued everybody that they could imagine who had almost the cleaner of the office of the company was sued because they sued the wife of the guy who had nothing to do with it. And they sued me. And I haven't even heard about the whole story. I don't know nothing about it. But then my lawyers in the US said that, look, unfortunately, if you go to court in the US, your legal bill can
00:33:52
Speaker
run up very, very high. So what we suggest is that all of you have been sued, you gather together and you settle it. It was a relatively small sum. It was, I think, $200,000 or whatever. So it was settled without any admission of guilt because, like I said, I didn't even know that these people existed before the lawsuit came. But it always happens. This always happens when you have a high profile and you have successful businesses. Somebody says, ah, there is an opportunity. Maybe we can sue him for something and maybe he would rather pay than go to court.
00:34:22
Speaker
even if he's not guilty. And that unfortunately happens. It does. Right. I want to move away from this. I want to talk a little bit because I remember when this all kind of broke, you officially announced that you left the bidding process to buy Inter. And I want to talk to you. Well, I want to begin there. Is this still the case? Are you completely out of the race to buy Inter?
00:34:48
Speaker
No, I'm not completely out of the race because I want to be out of the race. I had to do this simply because one unfortunate byproduct of all this negative publicity and all these stories about in-tuple and arrest and this and that, of course, affects people who read it. I understand it perfectly. If I was reading about somebody in the newspapers and I was reading that he's wanted by
00:35:12
Speaker
you know the singapore government whatever i would assume that he must be you know something must be wrong the guy has committed a crime or whatever because that's how that's the natural way that people think so the result was that some investors already had committed verbally
00:35:27
Speaker
to be partners in the consortium with Drew, said, look, until this whole thing is settled, we can't move. So I had to therefore announce that I can no longer proceed because of these false claims. And I call them false claims because like I told you already earlier, they are false claims.
00:35:45
Speaker
So I had to, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to continue. And maybe the silver lining now is that I only know as much as maybe you know even more, but I only know what I read in the media. And the media is saying that nothing seems to be happening. The oak tree alone is due in I think less than a month now, or maybe exactly a month, I think it's on the 20th of May. So it could well be that oak tree takes over and then obviously there is a new
00:36:15
Speaker
period of I don't know how much when because Oaktree is not for sure not a company that wants to own a football club long term. So maybe there is an opportunity to reenter discussions and negotiations.
00:36:27
Speaker
once this thing is cleared with Singapore and once I have been able to prove to everybody that it was a storm in a water glass and there was nothing wrong. So just to be clear, until these Singapore allegations or the legal status of what's happening in Singapore have been resolved, you're not going to actively be in the process to try to buy Inter or any other football club.
00:36:48
Speaker
No, because like I said, you know, the investors and I fully understand them. I'm not clear in any way. I just wanted to clarify on that. They are the ones who say, hey, this has to be solved first. Well, now that you're out of those talks, can you reveal
00:37:05
Speaker
anything of the talks you had with Suning to buy into? I mean, how advanced were they? Was there an actual bid presented? And how did they react to it? And can you give us some sort of insight into that? Yeah, no, it was very advanced. It was very advanced. And in actual fact, when this news broke in late February, we were very, very close to
00:37:28
Speaker
I think wrapping the whole thing up. I mean, we had committed investors. We had a consortium. We had made a bid. We made a bid, a first bid. We made already back in almost a year ago in May. No, sorry. The discussion started in May. We made it in July. And then we made a second bid in November. Why a second bid? Because we wanted to update the July bid
00:37:53
Speaker
on the basis of certain things that had happened in between. But it was a very serious bid. It was a complete bid. I had, as my advisors, and again, I can't give the names of companies, but it was one of the largest investment banks in the world, a name that everybody knows. They were with offices in all the major financial centers, including Milan.
00:38:19
Speaker
So they had a big team working on this together with me and we had on top of that we had advisors from Italy, we had lawyers, we had auditors, we had people who had been on the board, people who really knew the ins and outs of everything. So we had a very very good bid in my view and very detailed bid. Just a quick follow-up. Was it for the entire club or was it for parts of it?
00:38:45
Speaker
No, it was for the entire club. It was for the 100%, the whole club. And my view is that, you know, I always had a good communication with Suning and Steven Zhang. I didn't meet him many times because, as you know, I think he has been now in China since, I don't know, July of last year or whatever, hasn't been back in Italy. But before that, when we met, I felt immediate the first time we met, which was in May,
00:39:12
Speaker
of last year, I felt immediate liking for him. I mean, I think he's an amazing guy. He came to Milano at the age of 26 without any football background and he managed to get the
00:39:24
Speaker
big inter-organization with some very senior people who had been in football for umpteen years to listen to him. So I think he did a fantastic job. I have full admiration for him. Now, why they wanted to sell, I don't really know, and it doesn't really matter to me what the thing was, but that was anyway the process. I mean, otherwise, obviously, we wouldn't have done a bit unless we were told that they had a serious interest to sell.
00:39:50
Speaker
Whether that interest then changed in the process, I really don't know. Maybe it did. Maybe it did because if that is doing so well now and maybe they regretted the situation and maybe they said, no, we want to hang on to this. But I think it is extremely challenging because of the big debts that Inter has. And therefore, you know, but if I may go a little bit, you know, to something that has
00:40:17
Speaker
kind of come up during this one year now plus since I first made a bid for Manchester United and then Inter is that I have also come to the realization that for the really big clubs, the really big clubs like Inter, like Manchester United, they don't really need, you know, wealthy
00:40:37
Speaker
be billionaires or consortium, whatever, to bid or to buy, to own the clubs. In actual fact, I think it's bad for the club. Why? Because you come into exactly these kinds of situations where all of a sudden an owner
00:40:54
Speaker
for whatever reason cannot continue or doesn't want to continue and then a new owner comes in and it disrupts everything. I have more and more of the opinion that the best model for the big clubs, because the big clubs, they don't need a wealthy billionaire to finance them. Going back to what I said earlier about our Champion Circle platform,
00:41:15
Speaker
they can finance themselves when they have enough funds. And that goes back to the model that we have in Germany, in the Bundesliga, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, and also some clubs in Spain, Barcelona, Real Madrid, which are owned by the fans.
Fan Ownership and Social Media Criticism
00:41:31
Speaker
I think
00:41:31
Speaker
Well, we all know that some of the Spanish clubs might not be, or Barcelona in particular has its own challenges, but that is then a management issue. But the fact that the fans control the club, I think it is a very healthy situation. And frankly, I've been also thinking now with Inter and Manchester United as well.
00:41:50
Speaker
maybe I should instead try to work together with the fans in building something that can, you know, can lead to the fans taking control of the club and thus having a continuity that is not dependent on, you know, billionaire X from the US or billionaire Y from the Middle East coming in and then exiting a few years later. Well, I just wanted to talk, I want to just to build on that.
00:42:18
Speaker
on the inter talks. I mean, you said that they were very advanced. Your feeling was that it was close to being concluded already in February. That's only two months ago. That suggests to me that the due diligence was done. That suggests to me that the bidding process was well underway. There was a concrete offer under the table. On the table, there was an actual evaluation.
00:42:42
Speaker
process completed and that you had made an offer that Suning had indicated that they were willing to accept? Yes. Well, the last part, I cannot say that they had indicated that they were willing to accept because that feedback did not come. But we know more or less what the expectation was as comes to what the club was worth or is worth. And we were
00:43:10
Speaker
on that level in our offering. But everything else what you said is exactly correct. It was a due diligence had been done. We had a complete concrete offer for the whole club with an exact value that we wanted to pay. Everything was there. It was not going back to your initial question about Manchester United
00:43:30
Speaker
then we never came that far. But within that, it was a completely different situation, because we had time to prepare. And like I said, you know, having the having one of the biggest investment banks in the world with all their resources, who have been involved in many, many similar offers and deals made all the difference. So so it was a it was a complete offer. And, and, and, yeah, I cannot say that Sony was willing to accept it, because then I don't know, but I can say that
00:43:59
Speaker
the offer was on a level that we know was very close or similar to what the expectations were. Just to understand a little bit more about the structure of the bid presented. This investment bank, you said you built a group of financiers, which is very similar to what Redbird do and have done with Milan, I'd say. They're a group of investors. They fundraise and then they invest in specific
00:44:27
Speaker
specific investment. But the role of this investment bank, was it as advisor? Was it as a financier? What can you tell us? So the role of this specific bank that I was referring to before was purely as an advisor. But being a global, one of the biggest investment banks in the world with offices, like I said earlier, already in all the major financial centers across the world, in Americas, in Europe, in Middle East, in Asia, everywhere, they of course have a
00:44:57
Speaker
tremendous network of potential investors. And then we appointed another, again, I'm not allowed to give the name, but a US-based, New York-based investment bank specialized in American fundraising primarily, but also with a global network. So these two jointly brought in
00:45:26
Speaker
big private equity firms, family offices. And then, of course, I have my own network as well. So we had a consortium, and as you're referring to Redbird, very similar, a consortium that was willing to move ahead with the money that was required. And on top of that, money to further then develop and build the club.
00:45:50
Speaker
Everything was there, everything was ready, but it all fell apart because of these false claims that came out of Singapore. I just wanted to ask you just to move away from that, because there's been some criticism from Inter fans and also Italian journalists.
00:46:09
Speaker
in that the way that you speak on social media, that they feel that there's very little action from you in buying the talk. What would you say to that? I'm grateful that you brought that up because that of course is complete nonsense.
00:46:27
Speaker
Yes, I have been very active on social media because that's that's just the way how I see the world I like to communicate especially with the fan base because like I said so many times without the fans There is no club and with the fans The club literally could be self-sustaining as I have explained here earlier. So I want to communicate with the fans I want to let the fans know what I think and what I want to do and
00:46:51
Speaker
I've seen the same comments that you were referring to that they have said, but don't talk so much, do something, buy the club. Buying a football club is not like going to the supermarket to buy food.
00:47:05
Speaker
It's there on the shelf the food and there is a price and if you pay the price the food is yours with the football club it's of course completely different so i like i said behind the scenes but this is something which we simply couldn't tell. On social media anywhere else what was going on all the time but i can assure you.
00:47:22
Speaker
that, like I said, one of the biggest investment banks in the world wouldn't commit their resources. And those resources in the number of people involved was very significant to something that wasn't that serious. So we were working constantly communicating, building, getting all the investors in. I mean, we talked to, I don't know,
00:47:45
Speaker
probably a hundred different big names about joining some of them. And actually, surprisingly, many of them said no, because they felt that Ifta was too risky as an investment with all the debt. But we managed to get some who were willing to take that risk, and especially because we could present to them our plan on how we could
00:48:07
Speaker
we could generate these fan services or build these fan services that would generate a lot of new income. So there was tons of work being done all the time and it was certainly not just talking on social media. No, no. I understand that you feel that way. But I assume that must have been very frustrating for you not be able to talk. But then on the other hand, I suppose you could say, well, since you speak a lot and are very active on social media, that opens you up.
00:48:37
Speaker
to that kind of criticism, because obviously people can only react to what they see. Would you? Absolutely. Absolutely agree with that. I have no problems at all with people being critical and voicing their issues and voicing their concerns. So no, no, no, I fully understand. And again, I go back to what I said earlier that these are people who, you know,
00:48:59
Speaker
In many cases, they live in Britain and love the club 24-7. The club is maybe the most important thing in their lives. So for them to see somebody, first of all, to see the club that they love maybe not being managed the way they would like to see it being managed, and then to have somebody who is on social media talking about what he wants to do, the natural reaction indeed would be, well, come on, do something. Don't just talk. But again, that is because these people are not privy to how the process is ongoing all the time.
00:49:29
Speaker
nor do they probably understand how complicated it is from getting from the starting point to the finish. But like I said, I fully understand them and I have no problems at all in them being critical.
00:49:43
Speaker
Okay. Speaking of being, you know, criticism and a positive one, you've been very vocal, positive about Stephen Zhang and Suning in the past, but do you think perhaps that it's time for them to sell the club? Because as what we've heard now is that they're looking that they're actually close to refinancing the yoghurtary loan, but with someone else.
00:50:06
Speaker
or even with oak tree. If that were to happen, that would be keeping the can down the road. So what are your thoughts on that? As a fan myself, but as a fan that is not just a fan but also has the capability to build a consortium that can buy the club, yes, my answer is yes. I think it's time to sell the club because, as you said, it's kicking the can down the
Inter's Future and Financial Management
00:50:34
Speaker
road.
00:50:34
Speaker
The debts are already very large and they will become even larger if the old tree loan is just replaced by a new loan because there is a massive interest and that has ballooned the loan quite significantly. At the same time, I don't really see it as normal. I have no idea what the reasons are, but I don't see it as very normal that the chairman of the club
00:50:57
Speaker
Has not been in Italy now for close to a year. So so I don't think that's the way the club should be run I think it requires somebody who is present there all the time. So yes, I think it is time but it goes back to what I said earlier that you know, maybe it's a time to rethink the whole thing that maybe maybe there could be a way of
00:51:13
Speaker
of restructuring this so that the fans take over that stake. I mean, look, I just saw an interview with Inter's CEO just a couple of days ago where he said that Inter has 750 million fans around the world. I earlier have heard a little bit over 500 million, but either one of them
00:51:33
Speaker
is big enough to literally, if each fan would pay the price of one cup of coffee in whatever bar they are frequenting, they could buy the club. So to me, that approach would be really attractive and I would love to work with them, with the fans, in building that offer and then bringing in the champion circle services, which then would keep the club running in a way that would enable Inter to
00:52:03
Speaker
by all the best players in the world and become... There was something similar in Italy called interspak, who... Yes. I don't know if you know about that. I know. Yeah, I mean, is that the kind of format you're looking at? Not really, not really, because interspak was more, and I may be wrong here because I know about them, but I don't know all the details because it was before I became involved. My understanding is that that was more a group of wealthy interfans who
00:52:37
Speaker
fan who has no money but a passion for the club, but rather wealthy interfans and no disrespect at all to them. They are just as welcome as any other fan. But I think it was limited in the number of people who were involved in that introspect. But I think the thinking was the same. Why can't the fans take over? But what I am saying, let's not forget that the vast majority of interfans are not in Milan, not even in Italy. They are around the world.
00:52:59
Speaker
you know, not the average, you know
00:53:05
Speaker
I mean, China alone, and that is probably partly because of Suning, has something like two or three hundred million fans of Inter, only in China. So my idea of doing this is to involve all the fans globally and make it possible to them to interact with the club that they love in a much more meaningful way than just
00:53:27
Speaker
watching a game on TV. I don't want to tell what the services are, because we are at the moment filing a patent for the platform and before the patent has been filed. I can't say all the details. But like I said, going back to what I mentioned earlier, a $400 per participating fan. I mean, that alone makes far more money if we get the fans involved and engaged than
00:53:52
Speaker
all of Intel's revenues from everything else, you know, sponsorships, ticket sales, Champions League fees, everything, far more can be generated from these fan services. Yeah, because I wanted to, I'm glad you brought that up, because I wanted to ask you about that, because you've always speak about ways to innovate the fan experience. And I know that you're, you know, you're waiting for the patents to go through, so no one steals your idea. What can you tell us about these ideas that you have? Well, I mean, they are all they are all related to my
00:54:20
Speaker
to my background as a technology entrepreneur. It's about using technology in innovative ways. Time just makes this more and more exciting because today we have technologies that we didn't have a few years back when we did this initial test where we made more than $400.
00:54:40
Speaker
like I said, with just one service. And that means that now we have multiple services at all. I'm not saying that they all will make $400, but even if we are very conservative, and we say that, oh, only, you know, let's say that only 10% of the global fan base participate in some way, and we take the lower estimate of 500 million fans. 10% is 50 million fans. If we have
00:55:09
Speaker
$10 from each one of them instead of $400. And now we talk about eight services instead of one. 10 times 50 is 500 million.
00:55:17
Speaker
500 million is about two times as much as all the revenue that Inter is generating today from all the other sources. And those sources would, of course, not finish. They would be there. So on top of the 300 plus million that Inter now is making, there could be another 500 million, 800 million, which means that from making a loss like they did in the last financial year,
00:55:42
Speaker
Now, I think the last quarter, they were actually profitable, but last financial year, at least the latest financial figures I have seen, I think they made a loss of around 80 million. So going from minus 80 to plus 400 or whatever, imagine what that will do for the club and its ability to buy the best possible players
00:56:03
Speaker
that there is in the world. So, I mean, to me, that is just a dream come true for a big club like Inter and that's what we can do.
00:56:14
Speaker
OK, well, I want to talk a little bit about the football as well. I mean, but before we get to that, speaking of revenue, one of the things that Suning and Inter have tried to do is to build a new stadium. But the red tape in Italy, it doesn't seem to allow them or Milan to do it. What is your position on that stadium issue? Do you think that Inter and Milan should leave the San Siro? Do you think they should tear it down? Do you think they should build elsewhere, separately, together? What are your thoughts?
00:56:41
Speaker
Well, San Siro is, of course, an icon and a landmark. San Siro is up there with Wembley and with other famous stadiums around the world. So, because of the history,
00:56:58
Speaker
I would love a solution where San Siro can be refurbished, modernized so that it meets all the demands of a modern stadium. And that is important for the fans because, you know, it makes watching a game so much more comfortable, but also for the club because modern stadium today brings in a lot of money from hospitality events or hotel suites in the stadium. And that is something that San Siro doesn't really have today or has it in a very, very small capacity. However, I've been told
00:57:25
Speaker
by people who have studied this, that it is extremely difficult to do so and that therefore a new stadium would be a much-shipped.
00:57:32
Speaker
better option. So if that is the case, then sadly, my vote would then go for building a new stadium because of its financial implications. Now, I fully understand that politicians see this differently and they are voted in by their voters. And if the voters don't want to see the club sleeves and see it, then the politicians will obviously in their own interest say, no, no, you have to stay.
00:57:59
Speaker
But I would hope that common sense would prevail in this and everybody would see that what is beneficial for the club is also beneficial for the wider society as a whole and the community and therefore to build a new stadium I think is the best option. I had been involved myself when one of my companies was
00:58:22
Speaker
a co-owner of the Finnish Ice Hockey Champions, a club called Joketit. We built a new stadium in Helsinki and it had a tremendous positive impact on everything. The heart of Lorena, right? The heart of Lorena. Exactly, exactly. Which sadly today is owned by Russian interests who are under the, you know, blockage. And so the whole stadium has been standing empty now for two years. But
00:58:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's a different story. But exactly. So that's my view of the stadium. And also, let's not forget the stadium, as I already did kind of mention is that it has a massive financial impact on the club as well. So every match would generate so much more money. And obviously, the club is not a real estate developer, but there are
00:59:07
Speaker
A lot of real estate developers that I know would be very keen to come in and build a stadium. And the stadium, of course, today, a modern stadium is no longer just a stadium. It is a complex which has around it, you know, can be apartments, can be shopping centers, can be all kinds of things that also make it into an alive place, not only when there are games, but 24-7 throughout the year.
00:59:38
Speaker
So I wanted to ask you a little bit about the European Super League, which has been, you know, it's been quite a lot of legal tangling and the EU, the CJ came with a verdict in November or December, if I remember correctly.
Views on Champions League and Super League
00:59:53
Speaker
It seems that the legality, the legal issue surrounding that has now been cleared. But what is your position of the creation of the European Super League versus the current, the status quo, so to speak?
01:00:06
Speaker
You know, it's a little bit same as with the stadium in the sense that if you can fix something that is already there, then that's always a better option. And as comes to the Champions League and as comes to UEFA, I don't see that it would be in such a bad shape that it would have to be replaced by something else. I mean, obviously, the Super League is driven by financial interest. But while I love to watch the big clubs play against each other's, I love even more to see an underdog
01:00:36
Speaker
coming up and succeeding against the big giants. And that kind of would be almost made impossible by the Super League. So even if the legal hurdles are cleared, I still, I'm a football romantic in that respect, that I still believe that it's better to have an open competition where any team from anywhere can become
01:01:01
Speaker
the Champions League winner. And so therefore, I prefer to modernize the Champions League in whatever ways are needed. That's fair enough. I want to talk a little bit more about what your thoughts are on Inter today and this season and under the current financial parameters that Inter have been.
01:01:25
Speaker
First of all, let's start with the leadership. You mentioned Beppe Marotta. You've already spoken very highly of Stephen Zhang and you said that you found it really problematic that the owner can't be there or isn't there, I should rather say. Do you know Beppe Marotta? What's your relationship with him and what do you think of him?
01:01:45
Speaker
No, I don't know him, I don't know him. I met the Inter-Management, let me see now, I think I only met them once, then I had a couple of video conferences with them when we were preparing the bid. But no, I don't know Beppe Marotta, but everybody who knows him speaks highly of him. I have read an interview with him recently where he said that he wants to leave, I think it was in 27 or whatever the year, and he wants to focus on youth football.
01:02:14
Speaker
And I like that approach very much because I 100% agree with him. I mean, the backbone of Inter Milan, or any football club for that matter, is to have a strong youth program. And look at Barcelona, I mean, it's just unbelievable.
01:02:33
Speaker
how all these youngsters come up from Barcelona's junior squads and are ready players when they are 16 or 17. So to me, if Beppe would be willing to continue in that position, and I had the privilege of being involved as an owner, then I would love that. And it of course doesn't mean that his expertise in finding good players outside of the youth system could not still be used. So I have said that I don't want to really
01:03:02
Speaker
Comment on the on the inta milan management because i don't know what know them well enough but before i get to know them better but but but in general i would say that. Any organization needs new blood every now and then but also most organizations do not react well to.
01:03:24
Speaker
dramatic radical changes. So one has to be very careful in not destroying something that is good in order to make it even better. But I think, like I said, there is probably room for some modernization, some improvements, and without tearing down the structures.
01:03:46
Speaker
That's fair. But I want to talk a little bit about the football itself. I mean, how do you rate Inter's season? A lot of Inter fans are obviously very disappointed with the Champions League exit. Others feel that, you know,
01:04:00
Speaker
Given the financial disparity between Serie A clubs in general and the Premier League, it's always going to be a pipe dream for a Serie A club to win the Champions League and that last season when they reached the final was more, not fluke, but it was more down to chance and maybe a favorable draw and so on and so forth, even though they did really well in the final itself.
01:04:20
Speaker
But they are on the verge of winning the Skoretto for the second star, the 20th Serie A title, having won the Supercoppa for the third year in a row. How would you rate inter-season on the pitch?
01:04:34
Speaker
Yeah, look, I think what you said is very true. I mean, there is a challenge because of the limited financials of Italian clubs compared to the giants from some other European nations. So, yeah, last year, I think that's correct. What you said at last year was the sum of, of course, a good team, but also some lucky coincidences. So,
01:05:02
Speaker
and going back to what i said earlier what what i want to do the reason i'm interested to be involved either as an owner or as a co-owner or as you know a partner whatever form because i want to build a club i don't i don't look for trophies i want to build a club and i want to build a club in a way where it financially can compete with anybody else so i want to see you know in a in a place
01:05:25
Speaker
I think the closest similarity is Real Madrid, a club that every year is one of probably two favorites to win the Spanish League, but also is a permanent contender for the Champions League. And I want to see Inter Milan in that same position where nobody can say, oh, it is a pipe dream.
01:05:44
Speaker
They can't compete. They can't compete if we are running it the right way and if we bring in these new revenue sources, then Inter Milan can compete with any team in the world. And that's where I want to see Inter Milan in the
Building Competitive Teams and Team Praise
01:05:56
Speaker
future. Having said that, I think it's almost a blessing in disguise probably this year that Inter had some limitations on its financials because I think also Inzagi has managed to create
01:06:11
Speaker
a team, a team that plays together, where everybody plays for everybody. And that's what football is all about. I mean, we have such good examples of clubs that have bought all the best stars in the world, because they had unlimited funds, and I got PSGs by far the best example, where they never really reached. Well, who knows, maybe this year they finally will, but haven't reached that
01:06:34
Speaker
Pinnacle where they have been wanting to be every year simply because there are too many stars and stars Don't gel into a team or automatically sometimes they can but in so many cases each star thinks I am the star everybody else should support me and that's not how football is played so inter has a Fantastic team with an amazing team spirit and therefore to me. It's very hard to say you know
01:06:59
Speaker
if somebody asked me, so who should be brought into Inter? Well, I think then the question also is, well, who should then let go? And right now, I think every single player in Inter is filling his position in a fantastic way. And there are some amazing, I mean, there are some players who have just performed, actually, the whole team has performed, I think, very, very well this year. The Champions League, yes, that was a bit of a disappointment. There's no, you can't avoid that fact, but, you know, it's
01:07:30
Speaker
Yeah, going back to what you said yourself earlier about the restrictions and so forth, the financial restrictions, I guess we have to be realistic in that sense and accept the fact that there is more money needed to build into Milan, into a team that can really be in the final and win it every year.
01:07:50
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That would be the dream of all Inter fans, of course. So you mentioned Simone Nzagi. I mean, since he's come to Inter, he came in a very difficult financial situation. And I saw a report in Italian media that he's earned his clubs over half, almost half a billion euros off the pitch in terms of sporting success and so on and so forth.
01:08:15
Speaker
But also the football is some, you know, some Inter fans would say that this is the most beautiful football they've ever seen Inter play. How do you rate his work? Because you mentioned the teamwork as well, but how would you rate his overall work? I would rate it very, very high. I mean, the fact that he has with the limitations that he has been given by the management
01:08:37
Speaker
as comes to how much money can be spent. I think he has done an amazing job. I don't have the privilege of knowing him personally, but he must be a fantastic personality also in being able to
01:08:53
Speaker
to gel these players together into the fantastic team that Inter is today. And you mentioned, you know, beautiful football. Yes, I think Inter is playing beautiful football. And Inter also is now in a position where they have that
01:09:08
Speaker
ability that Manchester United had under Alex Ferguson where even when games are very tight, somehow they always squeeze that one goal that is needed to win the game. And that's what a good team does when it is led by a good charismatic manager that the players believe in. And that's again going back to this whole issue about continuity. So I think the longer you have
01:09:33
Speaker
And Alex Ferguson was a good example again when he was, I don't know for how many years, at the head of Manchester United. So he was the undisputed authority in the team. And it's the same thing, I think, with Inzaghi, that he is building that position where players believe in him and in his leadership. Which is not the case when you keep on changing, managers come and go and they are not even a whole season or a whole year with the club.
01:10:00
Speaker
Players, how do you build respect with the players if every player thinks, well, he's going to be gone in a few months anyway, so who cares? So I take my hat off to Inzaghi, and I really would wish that he continues with Milan, and I would wish that we would be able to get to that situation where the new revenue streams could enable him and the management to reach out for any player that they want.
01:10:30
Speaker
Agreed. Just before we let you go, we play this little fun game to end all our interviews. It's a rapid fire game. I just basically give you a couple of two or three options and you pick one and you don't have to explain if you don't want to. If you want to, you can. Okay. So the first one, everyone in the world, I think has been asked this.
Rapid-Fire Questions and Interview Conclusion
01:10:49
Speaker
Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi? Messi. Diego Maradona or Pele? Pele.
01:10:58
Speaker
Paolo Maldini, Franco Baresi. Baresi. Zlatan Ibrahimovic or Marco Van Basten. Hey, I'm from Scandinavia, but I have to say Zlatan. Finland to win the ice hockey world championships and Olympics or Inter under your ownership to win the Champions League and the Serie A?
01:11:21
Speaker
in fact to win the Champions League and say, yeah, under my ownership. Finland has already won the ice hockey world championship in the Olympics, so we don't need to do it again. And finally, because I know you have a house in Italy and you are in Italy quite a lot. Finally, pineapple on pizza, food heaven or food hell? Food hell.
01:11:44
Speaker
I think pineapple pizza is, I've been told it's actually a Finnish invention and I am very sorry that is the case because I don't think it should be there at all. I thought it was a Swedish one because it was from there. It's a Nordic, maybe it's a Nordic one. Maybe it's the poor souls of Finland and Sweden who live in the cold and darkness most of the year and who love the south and the pineapples and all of this that they just want it in everything.
01:12:12
Speaker
I agree. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And we would love to have you on in the future once you know what's happened with all of this, with the situation, if you have any other. If you bid again for Italian football, because you do have some interesting ideas about innovation in football generally, which I think football, who is very, very stuffy and have a very old fashioned way of viewing things, I think it's always good to open the windows. Well, thank you so much.
01:12:40
Speaker
Thank you so much for inviting me. I'd love to be back again.
01:12:45
Speaker
Indeed, the filing of the patent is being done as we speak for the Champions Circle platform, and that also means that we can, I think very soon, tell all the details about what it is. Hopefully, even if the Inter Milan situation doesn't get solved in the way that I and my consortium could come in as owners, maybe we at least could come in as partners and generate those additional revenues that would
01:13:12
Speaker
would delight the fans and make Inter the best club in the world. Every Inter fan would love to hear that. Right, everyone else, thank you so much for listening. We'll be back next week on Tuesday because obviously the Milan Derby is on Monday and the Scoredetto could be decided, so we're going to do the full weekend review as we always do on Tuesday as opposed to Monday. But until next time, take care of yourselves and each other. Ciao, ciao.