Transcript
Speaker: Good. So good. Good. So very good.
Speaker: Welcome to the Good GM's podcast. I'm E.E. Morris, and today's episode is Pacing Gaming. And now, here's Chuck and James.
Speaker: Hello, internet. Hello, people who are listening to this on record players, people who are listening to this through telegrams, people who are just hearing the story, um you know, through oral tradition, you know, being passed down for the generations.
Speaker: Because I assume that, you know, in the future when all technology has failed, they'll still talk about the great the great good GMs, um you know, of old. um I'm James Curry. I am joined as always by the ah handsome and and durable...
Speaker: Just handsome and durable. Well, thank you. i I'll take that. Hello, people. My name is Chuckie T. Glad to have you here, as always. James. Yes. Yes. How's it going? Look what I'm wearing. Look what I'm wearing. I know. i know. Who's that from, bud? That is from Neen Valley. That is the Neen Valley Role Playing Association, the good folks over in the UK right now. um I think this episode will air before that. So we had a great interview with Anthony Langley. Yeah. um And what a what an awesome dude. What an amazing fellow to talk to. If you haven't checked out, if you haven't heard of them, if you want to check out some good, good actual play content with like. It's like you ever get somebody says, hey, you should check out the show, you know, and it's got like 11 seasons or something. You're like, holy smokes. like That's going to that's going to keep me busy for another two weeks. um
Speaker: These guys that are out there and they've been at it for quite a while. They've got some they've got some good content for East Texas University. They've got some good content for um they're all over the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They've got a handful of things, but they're really into it. And it's it's a lot of fun.
Speaker: Yeah. And this is ah this is their East Texas University shirt. It's it's the fighting ravens. It's very cool. And down here it says so where the Neen Valley Roleplaying Association fights the forces of darkness. so Heck yeah. Go Ravens. Go Ravens. And you're wearing your Miskatonic University shirt. So go Cephalopods. Cephalopods. You know who that's for.
Speaker: It's a big, guy that's a, that's a big football, ah the Ravens versus the cephalopods. That's, that's. That has to happen. Like that has to happen. to us So welcome Chuck. So I don't know. We talked a lot in the last few episodes about what we've been playing, so we can probably just jump straight into this. I don't want to keep this, this, I don't want this, this episode to meander for too long. You know, want to, I want to keep it moving at like an appropriate clip, you know?
Speaker: ah What do you, what do you think about that? Well, you know, the other day i was thinking about, no, we're not doing that. no So, yeah. So what are we talking about? You're talking about pacing. my favorite talking about We're talking about pacing. um As a good GM, you are also a pacemaker. No, a pacekeeper. A pacekeeper. A pace something. That will land, I promise. It will. well We're almost there.
Speaker: um So the episode today, I'm talking about the idea that we as the GMs are responsible to make sure the game is moving in such a way that people who come to your sessions, whether it's logging in or maybe they've had to travel you know, you know half an hour to get to your game or something to sit at your table and they only get to do it. They only get that time away from their family once every couple of weeks. So they don't want to feel like they've they've had a waste of their of their time.
Speaker: How do you as a good GM ah keep that moving? And I think, you know, i'd like to I'd like to start with a question. This isn't the question that's going to answer this all, but it's something that we should always keep in mind, which is, is what we're doing right now at the table worth the time we're using Is it benefiting the story? So is what's what's happening at the moment taking too long? is it Is it moving the story forward? Is it beneficial, right? So there's there's aspects to a game session that that are that might feel slow, but that doesn't make them wrong right as long as they're doing what what they're intended to do.
Speaker: Right. does that make sense? Yes, it does. And that that's always, for me, that's always been a bit of a problem because I i tend to get easily sidetracked. You know, like like they'll they'll be doing something like I know they're supposed to go to point A to do the thing. And then they'll be before they get to point A, somebody's already done something that's interesting.
Speaker: And the bad part is it may not be interesting to their players, but it's interesting to me. it's like, oh so I start to indulge. Yeah. And that's fair. That's fair because it's part of the adventure, right? If you wanted your adventure to be a quick, like a short story, you could just, all right, gather around children. I'm going read it to you. Right. white But then there's the problem.
Speaker: No, not problem. The opportunity. I hate that term. Anyway, the problem is yeah they get to point A. We'll call it a concern. A problem is a concern. it's ah It's an obstacle. That's good. The obstacle. Yeah. They get to point A and...
Speaker: Now I've blown so much time over before that, that they get into point a and maybe I'm still bringing in the elements that that interesting thing was and I shouldn't be. I need to stop, focus, focus.
Speaker: get back to what needs to be done. And later, if I can indulge in that interesting thing, I will. Are you watching the clock? Like, like this is, this is, I guess, you know, this, this, these topics tend to always go back to, is this a one shot?
Speaker: is like ah Is this a, is this a, is this a, an ongoing campaign that that we have all the time in the world? Like my masks and my Lathotep game where we can, we can spend an entire, you know, month of sessions and,
Speaker: you know, doing something because it, it, it only passed less than a day of, of, of in-game activity, but it was fun and everybody liked it. Or we talking, know, so I think these are the, these are the key things to consider is right when do we pull, when do we pull the strings?
Speaker: When do we, when do we light the, the fire? You know, when do we how do we move and how do we do that? Like what, what tricks and tips do you have to keep that moving? um How do we do that for ourselves and how do we do that for our players? So,
Speaker: remember pacing isn't necessarily, it's not about going fast. This isn't punk rock. This is, this is an epic ballad, right? Like this is about getting from you say to point a, but I say it's to point point D and understanding that sometime we're going to get to point a, B and C. Um, but sometimes, and, and, and and also the pieces, right? It's not, if you're in a game, that's typically combat, combat, combat. If you're doing a dungeon crawl and all you're doing is kicking in a door, fighting the monster, taking the treasure, pacing is less important than if you're doing,
Speaker: ah ah globe-trotting ah Call of Cthulhu adventure, right? or or you know or Or even if you're doing that dungeon tromp, but you're not doing the stereotypical room, door, room, door, room, door, and you're actually trying to break up like each room is a scene and there's something going on in that scene. So there's not always a monster in the room. Sometimes there's a riddle. Sometimes there's something. anything there's so But there's something happening in that room.
Speaker: right That's where the pacing comes in because sometimes, yeah, it is more fast because it is combat or it is a high tension. Like the person hits the stone, the door slams shut, the other door won't open, and the ceiling is starting to come down. And then to make matters worse, there are spikes coming out of the ceiling. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So now, no, them sitting around. And that's the other thing is as they're sitting there in a in a situation like that, it is all about, oh my God, the tension.
Speaker: And you, ah you know, for me, You know, I'm going to get bored really damn quick if they're just sitting there. Well, we should do this. or We should do this. No, we should do this. we should Oh, no. the We should look at this. we ah And I want that initially.
Speaker: e Well, then I'm going to get to a point where it's like, make a damn decision. Yeah. well And don't look at me pissy when I tell you flat out, make a decision.
Speaker: So i i have this I have this technique that I've used in the past to keep in my little toolkit is ah is is one one of these. And if you can't see it because you're just listening, it's one of these little game timers. And it doesn't matter how long it is. It doesn't matter how long it is. So I'll take this and I'll just set it on the table in front of my screen. Yes.
Speaker: Make a decision. The players are looking at it like, what is that for? Make a decision. and I don't have to say anything, they start going, oh crap, it's it's still ticking. Oh my gosh, we need to make a decision. yeah And so they see that and they don't they don't want to know what that timer's for, so they just go ahead and make that decision. um I've done that before and it works. Stuff like that is very helpful. um and that's And that's when it's on the player, right? like like i think I think the other thing we can look at as the GM is how can, maybe we're not giving enough threads or maybe we're not giving enough tension
Speaker: Maybe we're not setting that time. Like we talked about in one of our one of our set recordings where we talked about, um you know, setting those clocks, creating that tension, putting that bomb that the the players, you know, right players know about, but the characters don't know about under the table.
Speaker: Right? Right. And you got to listen to your table. If you're looking at them, like go back to the the example of the trap, right? If they're there and they genuinely are lost, like they have no clue, but If they're throwing out ideas, if they're doing something, I'm fine. So now move off of the trap and they're just...
Speaker: they They're just out in the quote-unquote open world and they're just, ain't they they're literally, they've been stymed. They don't know what direction to go. Right.
Speaker: And so what what can you do? Like, how do you introduce new information? how do you How do you remind them of old information? Like, bringing in an NPC isn't a fantastic way to do that. bringing in an old NPC even. Sometimes, yes, sometimes it is Other times, um other times um especially if there's back history on the character sheet,
Speaker: that the character has forgotten. Yeah. But you remember, because, you know, you're a good jam, you put that note off to the side that has, you know, been highlighted a few times, has exclamation marks around it, that says, hey, stupid, don't forget this. Yeah, yeah. um when so you put your hand in your pocket to pull out your lighter to light your cigarette, and you you remember, you feel this locket, and you remember. There you go. Right?
Speaker: And then you look at the player and you say, um in your backstory, it mentions a name of a friend. And the player goes, oh, oh my God. You know, or even rare is like, it does.
Speaker: And they turn, they look, hopefully they look and they go, oh, oh, hey, we can go talk to Bill. Bill's going to tell us which way to go. There you go. And then that way it helps them a little bit, but it is about reading the room.
Speaker: And if they're just, if they're not, if they're, if they're engaged, but they just genuinely don't know where to go. You need to have those little extra things, NPCs, you know, notes, um you know, ah before they get to that point where they have to get where they, before they get to that crossroads, it it is okay. Okay.
Speaker: To be like, okay, so you guys, after that last scene, you guys have gotten tips on the library, the city hall, yeah the police station, the insane asylum.
Speaker: I know it's a lot. where do you guys want to go that way? Now they know they have a structure. They know, they know they know, okay. Getting them that information, giving them the choices is a great way to keep. Yeah. Boom, boom, boom. and And then, and then let's not, let's not forget. We can always remind them that the bad guy is out there and have them, have them throw a surprise attack when they're stuck, when they're stymied, when they're sitting in there and they're,
Speaker: in the you know in their clubhouse going, what do we do next? yeah Surprise ninjas, you know like don't be afraid don't be afraid to throw to throw the bad guy at them and throw the bad guy in their face to remind them that if the longer they're taking to move forward. And again, we're we're talking about this too, like it's their problem. It's always the player's problem, but it's not always the player's problem. When we're planning our adventures, do we, and again, this this comes back to railroad sandbox situation. Sandbox situation gives them that freedom to not do anything, whereas A railroad gives them the the feeling that they have no choice in the matter. So knowing knowing how much to to drive the story forward yourself. So like, okay, so today's session, I know that they're going to do this.
Speaker: I want to give them this much of a ah breather to be able to to to do the investigation I know that that's going to lead them to this combat. This combat is is is going to take the majority of the session because we know in this system that whatever it is we're running, combat takes a while. Yeah.
Speaker: how dare yeah so yeah and we Lay at least two more hooks. lay out two more hooks Like, this scene trumpum is going to provide information that helps lead them down the path.
Speaker: Like, okay, like like i said, okay, this scene gave them a tidbit about the library. And it gave them a tidbit about City Hall. ah And...
Speaker: That's just you telling them, but like, what ah what other ways, like we have tit we have tidbits like, what, we've, you know, they found the matchbook for the for the the club in the, and you know, or whatever, yeah right? We know that one. um There's also the, you know, we can always throw out a news report, you know? We can throw out a and ah ah town crier, shout something out about, like, breaking at the at the local library or whatever, so you know, books stolen, I don't know. Yeah. You know, um So that's that these are ways that we can help direct. um
Speaker: We interrupt our program to bring you this important message.
Speaker: Hey dudes, guess what? Good GMs has taken over Twitch Friday nights, 7pm Eastern Time. You can watch us play Monster Hunters Club.
Speaker: Totally radical actual play, Savage Worlds game about kids in the 80s. Oh my gosh, it's gonna be totally radical. So check your flashlight, check your walkie talkies, whatever you do, man.
Speaker: Don't be bogus. Right on Friday nights, good GMs on Twitch. Look for good GMs podcast and be there and get some pizza. These are ways that we can help direct. um i So, i you know, and I both love Savage Worlds, and I'm sure there's other systems that have very similar things, but I noticed that for combat, for example. Oh, yeah. Sometimes combat takes a long time. So Savage Worlds has this thing called quick encounters, you know, deadly encounters.
Speaker: Where we can take a whole long scene. So let's say it doesn't have to be a combat. It can be, you know, an exploration of, you know, trying to, a heist, trying to break into some place that maybe isn't part of like, we need them to get the information, but we don't necessarily need to take three sessions to get it. What if, what if we ran it as a quick encounter dramatic task? Now, how, how does that work for other systems? Right. So quick encounter is as simple as one dice roll from each player. to determine how they did in that situation. And then we describe what happened as an overall story. Like you don't need to fight every every guard on the way into the into the into the big battle when we can just do a handful of like, okay, give me a roll. Great. Tell me how you took out one of the guards on the way in um versus versus having to go, okay, let's let's roll for initiative. Let's do, let's do it right okay great. We took out one guard. Now we're going to move down the hallway. There's another guard. Okay. Roll for initiative. No, no, no. ah Going back to the dungeon trump. um That's ah another beautiful way about it. If you're looking at, especially like Savage Worlds, ah no, no, I'm not going to do a dungeon trump. Well, I will look at that dungeon and I'll i'll try and like, depending on the size of it, i will I will go through what each room is.
Speaker: Yeah. And there's some good games. There's some good games for that. Golden Glory is a great game in Savage Worlds. There's some good games if that's the game you want to play. Right. But I will look at those rooms and I'll go, okay, this is a quick encounter. This is a quick encounter. This has something interesting here.
Speaker: I want to break this down into turns. Yeah. Quick encounter, or a quick encounter. That way, they' the ah myself and the players do not get caught in the slog.
Speaker: The slog. where i'm sitting there Where you're sitting there going, okay, okay. how many How many spaces are you moving? Yeah. Your turn.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. No, no. Hell no. like, what are you doing? You moving down the hall? Excellent. Okay, so everyone would stop. Which door are you going to? Point at the door. That's where we're headed. All right, here we go. And and that's beautiful. um If you wanted to play Hero Quest, to play Hero Quest. You know, if you want to play a board game, go play, you know. right But bob I'm going to that. I'm go look at the dungeon. going to look at the rooms. um And I'm going to determine, okay, which one of these are scenes and which one of these are just in, out, done.
Speaker: Roll the die. Okay. Quickly figure out, okay, you know critical failure, failure, success. Did you do a little bit better? Perfect. Four results.
Speaker: Awesome. Yeah. Okay. You got whatever result it is. You really quick between you and the player. Say, okay, here we go. You got, you got a success. This is what you got in your head.
Speaker: Tell us what just happened. Boom, boom, boom. Next, boom, next player. Okay. Keep that ball rolling. Right. and And again, it goes back to that original question is what we're doing is the time we're investing in this scene worth the payoff.
Speaker: Is it giving us what we want to move the story? if the is in it Let it happen. Yeah. And if you feel if your players start feeling like they're being rushed, they're not going to enjoy it. So if you find that every if everything you're doing is done by a quick one roll, one roll, one roll.
Speaker: Make sure you pace it. Make sure you set it out. Have a scene in between, like after after a big combat or before a big combat where the players have time for a quick breath rest and let them talk, throw out a question for the group to talk about. Give them a yeah give them a topic of some sort, um you know, or yes or do like they they do in Savage Worlds, have an interlude where you give them a Benny for telling a piece of their backstory to the group or whatever.
Speaker: Right, oh right, right, because you know you're absolutely correct. yeah in um Like, role-playing is part of... um the game of yeah yeah that's that's it's in the title not um but i i noticed here um the one note that you have is it's about rhythm tension release tension entry release yeah you know and i and i swear we talked about that with john hook we talked about that with mike mason the idea that you know you can't just give the same it's like if you had a song that was one note and one rhythm and one that's boring it's it
Speaker: it better be It better be a minute long song. like it You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And and yeah. it in Man, it it kind it it does boil down to, is it's like anything else. this is This is a skill that is learned.
Speaker: And it's learned by repetition. And it's learned by trial and error. Practice, practice. Knowing your system, knowing how long each combat might take, knowing how long each this might take, getting an idea for that. yeah um One of the things I thought about for today's conversation is, is how, how do you budget for that? But you can't because different games, different settings have a different feel. Like, will combat take up 50% of your game? Will, will, will exploration take up 15% of your game? Will role-playing take up 30% of your game? You know, what like, how do you, how do you do that math? And you can't.
Speaker: You can't, you have to just get to know it. um and And one thing, that I mean, a point that I'd like to to make is don't necessarily think in minutes. Yes. You got to watch the clock. Some people got to get home to let their babysitters, you know, yeah go, but don't think in minutes, think in scenes today. I want to do, I have yeah yeah goals. What are your goals? what What is the scene? And roughly how long do I want to spend on that scene?
Speaker: And be prepared to pivot. And be prepared to to be prepared to call it halfway through a combat and say, okay, guys, that's it. Next session, we're picking up right here. So make sure you write everything down.
Speaker: Or worse, you know you had planned, I'm going to have this social scene. I'm going to have you know a light combat. And then I'm going to have a social scene.
Speaker: And for whatever reason, that light combat suddenly... Like everyone's having a good time. h And all of a sudden you look at the clock and you go, oh, oh, spend a lot of time on that.
Speaker: ah Because like when I do Savage Sessions, I have two hours. You have two hours. yeah That's it I got two hours. I got to get some stuff done. And sometimes you have two hours times four sessions to tell the entire story. Sometimes, you not all the time. You can't necessarily. Like I know with you and I, we've done one. We did one where...
Speaker: something happened and we had to actually borrow from my Mastodire Lithotep game to get an extra session in because something didn't record or something bad happened. Um, so being able to borrow time is not always an option.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. You know, if, you know, when, um, when, when we're scheduling games, it's gotten to that point now where it's like, you know, if, if, uh, cause, uh, uh, Greg is running um our Halloween. Big Stompy. Yeah. Yes, Big Stompy. Yeah. um Sorry. No, excuse me. He's running on Thanksgiving.
Speaker: Well, so I know that for the month of September, he has four weeks. Yeah. And it means i know there's nothing planned, but I make it very clear to people. it's like, this is it.
Speaker: These are the weeks. This is it. There's yeah nothing past that. So you got these four weeks. You have these four sessions. You have these eight hours. To tell the story.
Speaker: Yeah. To the best of your ability. So don't let it meander. but Yeah, you can't. Don't let us spend. Yeah. And again, again, throwing out stuff like, remember guys, you're you're in the library, doing all this research.
Speaker: The ritual's happening at midnight. Yes. So. Yes. Well, and because that that's the other thing that can be very, just not distracting. um Motivating? Disconnecting. Disconnecting. players. Is real time. Mm-hmm. Game time. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And that's also for a GM. You, you gotta take it back a notch and it's important for you to say you're, cause for me, I could be excited like, m okay, I want to get to it i want to get to, I want to get to that. That's the fun part.
Speaker: The research is okay, but I want to get to that fun part. And so if they're, Again, read the table. Watch the room. Yeah. the room. Are they lost?
Speaker: ah You know, yeah are they, are if they're having bad dice rolls, man, tip that's just, if if you have not compensated for that, man, you got learn to pivot.
Speaker: Yeah. Learn to pivot and know how and know how without making the players. And if they're failing it, tell the players, like you said, it's like, this is, this is the crunch time in two hours or four hours, six hours, whatever, six hours. So say six hours. Cause usually research is like this role is four hours long, you know, some yeah stuff like that.
Speaker: And if you roll better, you, you're, you found it faster. Okay, cool. So, but yeah, put that time crunch on them. Um, uh, you, how you have the timer use the blades in the dark is have something where you you have the pie and filling in the pie. Yeah.
Speaker: Or just, or just, just understand that when you ask them to make a research role, the failed research role means they get the information in four hours. Yes. A successful research role means they got it in two hours.
Speaker: Yes. And arrays are a really good research role. means Man, they were epic. They found that stuff in an hour somehow, some way. Some magical way. Here you go, baby.
Speaker: Exactly. um Yeah. so and And like this conversation, let's keep an eye on it and feel like if we've we've tread the same waters over and over again, maybe it's time to call it to a close. I think you're right. So so the big, I mean, for me, the biggest takeaway, like I said at the very beginning is, is what's happening right now yes good for me, good for the players, and good for the story? And if not, what do I do to move it forward?
Speaker: So so if if the conversation is going really well and they're enjoying it, let it go. if the conversation is going really well and they're enjoying it, but you have 15 minutes to get to the next scene before. and Don't be afraid to say we need to move on.
Speaker: Yeah. yeah So you are the timekeeper. You are the referee. So come that's my takeaway is be the guy, be the, be the, be the pacemaker. I agree with all that. i would like to also add in, um, uh, uh, Shane Hensley years ago.
Speaker: hey jane Come on our show. Yeah, it would be awesome, man. yeah um But he threw out there a long time ago, and everyone thought he was a dick until they did it. um The whole combat, because again, combat.
Speaker: Combat is a time suck. Almost always. And he did the whole, if that person's just sitting there, uh, uh, uh, bam! he smacks it He smacks the table and goes, five, four, three, two. And if they don't say something to him,
Speaker: Their character's standing there for the next time. He just looks at and says, okay, you're on hold. Next. And I think, oh, oh. This is combat. there's we i don't do I don't do thinking. Guys, think about what you're doing yes before the next turn. Yes, pay attention. That's a great that's a great tool. Yes, it is. Thank you very much. so Yes. Again. Thank you.
Speaker: I feel like I'm a gooder GM because of this conversation. Yes, I feel like I've gone up. Yes. Yes. It's time to move on. Yeah, let's let's do one last thing and then we'll call it a day. want to remind everybody that we have a YouTube channel. We have a Twitch channel now.
Speaker: We have we have a Discord and the way to become a member of our Discord is by becoming a Patreon, whether it's at the free level, the five dollar Canadian. So i don't know what that is like three bucks your your side, um you know, at the good level, the gooder level, or the, the goodest level, or just the help us launder. Actually, you don't get anything for the help us launder money, hundred dollar level, but or do you, but if you want to join at the, the, the, one of the three levels, um, great. There's benefits in there that we'll, we'll make sure you get, including mentions by E.E. Morris at the at the end of every episode. um But if you even if you just join for free, you can join our discord starting to grow. We're starting to get people in there. We're going to have book club ah where we talk about new like how to learning a new um a new like core book. um kind we're having we're gonna We got some playing game tables. I'd love to get enough people in there that are keen to be able to like, I'm bored on this like Wednesday night, I got nothing going on. Who who wants to play a pick up one sheet, one shot and just just see what's out there? Or I would love to have an ongoing game of Blades in the Dark that anybody can just pick up and say, I've already got a character. We're all part of the same, you know, ah what what are they called? um Gang, whatever. yeah Like, there's a lot going on in there. And it's also a great place to discuss stuff like this. So feel free to join us there. Join us on Friday nights. Right now, we're going to have mo hos club Monster Hunters Club on our Twitch channel. um It's already gone. We've had our first actual game session and our session zero. So it's starting to go along. By the time this airs, it might be. We might've had a few episodes, but those are all going to end up on YouTube. So watch us there too.
Speaker: yeah But, and then, and then also again, our sister Savage Sessions is, is there there's stuff going on too. you know, we, if you want to join a good community, join us and and we'll, we'll, we'll yeah come on over. Say hi. Ask us questions. Recommend show topics. Tell us what you want to talk about.
Speaker: If you got something cool to to sell, let us know. Maybe you become a guest on our show. like It's all good. um and thanks for thanks for Thanks for watching today. Thanks for joining us. Remember, it's patreon.com forward slash good GM's podcast.
Speaker: um and And thanks to Reggie Studio for promoting this and and producing it. Yes, always. seen some great, great traffic because of their of their of their work. So thank you. ah Be good.
Speaker: Yes. And remember, be good to your dice and they'll be good to you. Think later.
Speaker: Thank you for watching. If you like or dislike what you heard, let us know. If you want to suggest an idea for an episode, ask the host a question, or just tell Chuck and James what you really think of them, join our communities at patreon.com forward slash good GM's podcast, or find us on the usual social media platforms.
Speaker: For now, I'm E.E. Morris, and you're all good GMs.
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