Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Leading With Emotional Intelligence & Empathy w/David Kinard
55 Plays3 months ago
In this episode, Brian Dietmeyer talks with David Kennard, the CRO at First Choice Health, about the human side of selling and leadership. They explore how David's unique background in clinical psychology, world religions, and education informs his approach to understanding and engaging with people in the business world. This insightful conversation covers the importance of soft skills, the power of empathy in sales and leadership, and how to leverage emotional intelligence to foster stronger, more meaningful business relationships.
Timestamps:
00:02.31 - Introduction to David Kennard and the topic of the human side of selling and leadership.
01:12.88 - How David's diverse background influences his role as CRO.
02:52.05 - Discussing the importance of understanding why people buy and changing the narrative in sales.
10:33.37 - The role of emotional intelligence in sales and leadership.
17:15.28 - Implementing change and the importance of mindset in achieving sales goals.
21:14.77 - The significance of emotional intelligence training for sales teams.
25:53.94 - Technical difficulty and resuming the conversation.
32:16.29 - Conclusion and thanks to David Kennard.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome to another edition of Close Mode, the enterprise sales show. I'm Brian Deepmyer, CEO of Close Strong. And today I'm really fortunate to be with David Kennard, who's the CRO at First Choice
David Kennard's Diverse Background
00:00:17
Speaker
Health. And if you're not familiar with First Choice Health, they are a provider owned healthcare care organization that offers employers a forward thinking alternative to traditional health insurance. Welcome and how did I do with the voiceover for your commercial? i love it it's just like my mother wrote it i appreciate you got it just perfect so
00:00:38
Speaker
I really, I really am looking forward to our discussion today. You know, the the topic that we're teaming around was kind of the the human side of selling and leadership. And so I will share with with our listeners, viewers that when you and I were chatting last week, I think the first thing I talked to you about was this, this really cool background do you have from my perspective, BA and clinical psychology and world religions, master's degree in education, you've taught marketing, and now you're a CRO. Like, It didn't seem like all all that would lead up to CRO. So at a high level, how do you feel like that really cool and diverse background ah is leveraged in your role as CRO?
The Role of Soft Skills in Sales
00:01:15
Speaker
Well, I think at the end of the day, it's all about humans, right? And people, as much as we think about our jobs as revenue developers or sales people or business development, ah whether you're on the B2B side or the B2C side or somewhere to mix
00:01:32
Speaker
people, human beings are still making those decisions. They're still the ones that we are engaging with. Now, we certainly have influences and things that the institutions have with us, but the ability to understand, engage with, interact with humans, with people, yeah we often refer to that as the soft skills, right, of business. But perhaps it's probably one of the most important aspects of any type of business development or revenue generation that I can think of that that ability to understand people. And so when I think about the combination of that.
00:02:09
Speaker
you know, world religions and clinical psychology. I've i've studied how people believed over time and and the structures of those beliefs, why they think the way that they do. um I even have a graduate degree in education for adults, adult
Understanding Buyer Emotions
00:02:24
Speaker
education. So then how do we learn and process new information ultimately to transform our behaviors? So for me, it makes complete sense that I might renaissance all of these things together. yeah to best understand how people relate who they are, empathize with them and their business or personal needs. And then maybe I have a a solution or a product or a service that can help them in that journey. And then they give me money. So that works.
00:02:55
Speaker
Yeah, I i agree. and i and it's like As we were chatting about this the other day, like there's there's so much now with with AI. and you know It's part of my role and and sequencing and all this stuff that's going on. and and Our conversation really, you you brought me back so so to to the human side of it. so sort of More specifically, you have some views on on like why why people buy. and I'd love for you to share that with our our audience. Well, i I think about often, first and foremost, backing up it a little bit. I like to always change the narrative. ah People, please present. I want to buy a car, or I want to buy dinner, ah soup, you know a rotisserie chicken. I mean, it it can be silly, so simple, or do something really complex, like a car or a house or a big vacation. yeah And if we just approach it at face value, which oftentimes so much happens, so often that happens,
00:03:52
Speaker
we lose or we compete on a transaction on a inventory-based scale and we lose the ability to sell the experience or to understand the why yes of that need, that person coming forward. So it's not just buying a car. It's buying a car that I feel strong, powerful, sexy, safe, yeah confident, whatever. What's the emotion behind that car purchase? Is it a car that's going to get me to and from work? Is it a car that's going to transport my family? Is it a car for, you know, off-road adventuring? What's the dream and fantasy behind me buying a car?
Changing the Sales Narrative
00:04:32
Speaker
And so often we sell that car, you know, you if you go way back, it's selling the steak versus selling the sizzle. Yeah.
00:04:39
Speaker
I don't even think that works anymore because the sizzle is more still about the state. I'm more about the the reason. So what was your reason for wanting that thing. And if we can understand that thing that gives me a chance to change the narrative. And and I think that the greatest salespeople and business development people and just relationship people ask a lot of open ended questions. You know why do you want this. What would it do for you if if you had this. How do you see yourself versus those yes or no questions? Do you need your car to have four tires? Do you need your car to have a steering wheel? I mean, yes, no. And once you complete that, then you're done. But that that opportunistic chance to dream about the purchase and what it might do for your organization. no And you can do this even with software, right? yeah Selling a CRM tool and getting people to get excited about what it enables my company to do. So I don't think it's necessarily consumer goods,
00:05:39
Speaker
or packaged goods or tangible goods, it can be services as well. Well, and that, yeah, that was that was my follow-up question about, so so, you know, one one level down of why is, you know, because it's going to impact my KPIs, you know, but how how do you, yeah, in a B2B environment, like what what are a couple of levels of why below KPIs that are appropriate for a B2B sales rep to be digging into? Yeah, I think when I when I approach a sales opportunity, and I'm talking with, let's say, a C suite executive or a VP, and, you know, they're wanting to and in in my lifetime of selling health care or insurance, the CFO is looking for cost benefit, right? How can I save money, ultimately, so that so that what if I could save you 10% on your health insurance this year, what would you do with that 10%?
00:06:33
Speaker
If I could decrease the number of absentees within your workforce ah by 5% this year, what would that do to your productivity? They're always thinking about these narratives, and it would be my job to help them understand the impacts of those narratives by asking those open-ended questions. First is just saying, I'm selling you insurance that can do A, B, C, one, two, three. Do you want it? And and I've been checklisted. versus I'm selling the future of opportunity. And so understanding that the HR person has a set of needs. The CFO has a set of needs. The CEO has a set of needs. And usually there's a project manager in here who really is their primary set of needs is not to blow it, right? They don't want to be seen as a person dropping the ball and making the wrong recommendation. So how do you as a salesperson or a sales team empathize and understand all of those people
Balancing Aspiration and Risk
00:07:31
Speaker
all of their backgrounds and the influencers so that you're selling multiple storylines, multiple narratives. Yeah. And I, and I wonder, and you started touching on this as, as you're going through that answer, like I understand like the, the aspirational stuff, but you just talked about like risk aversion, right? Is that, is that also a why? um And I get the sense, I mean, you talked about it, but I'm just wondering, yeah, how, how, how much do you think is risk of risk of aversion versus aspiration in terms of the why? Well if we go back again a hundred years ago to to very modern day advertising as it was taught by Carnegie and and all the business schools twenty thirty years ago. We learned that we had basic motivators achievement acquisition. And those were positive ones but then there were some other ones like exclusivity fear or avoidance of loss.
00:08:23
Speaker
And so those were more temporary, but they still were very powerful motivators. So understanding that we're humans and I walk into a position and or a role and I have an opportunity to bring change or a recommendation. Yeah, I'm going to be scared about that, especially if I have people above me judging that. It's good. I'm worried about my performance. I'm worried about my job. I'm worried about a lot of things. And some of that is right there in the career mode. But if i lose my job that i can't provide for my family or i can't go on that vacation or i can't do the things that are important to me personally. Yeah so this fear or anxiety is common place in every business decision that people are making whether they realize it or not. And so it being sensitive to that um and i'm not talking group therapy at all that leave that for something else but i am talking about being aware of and sensitive to those issues helps us to.
The Power of Human Connection
00:09:21
Speaker
connect and engage and empathize, which then might change the way we approach that sales environment. And it doesn't have to be all touchy-feely. Sometimes it's go get them and be more aggressive, be more assertive, be more gung-ho, and sometimes you need a softer approach. But understanding when and the difference, I think, is important. Yeah. And in that, that's the whole thing you reminded me of the other day is, is that there still is that human. This is how you began to get still is that human you're speaking with. And, and I feel like we've gotten so process oriented and so checklist oriented and, and activity oriented that, that maybe we need to be reminded of this. So yeah you're right you're absolutely right. And so many of our salespeople were trained on that checklist, right? They were trained on this notion of.
00:10:10
Speaker
ah Here's your opening pitch. Here's we're going to run through an ah RFP and that RFP is going to be kind of a cookie cutter because we do the same RFP style of presentation for everybody. They go through this checklist. I got to make so many calls. I got to send so many emails and it becomes a more of a robotic a reaction than a human interaction. Yeah, their emails introductory all said the same thing. And they always talk about me, not you, right? Yeah, I can do this for you. I bring these things. I'm this way. I'm this versus understanding you and your issue and your environment and your problems. Yeah. Need to break that mold from what traditional sales techniques have been and really kind of engage a more human centered approach.
00:10:56
Speaker
and And yeah it it it also reminds me like i wrote an article a while back about. You know, business relationship is about you making the other person successful. But, but there is that, there's that thing, like I have a close relative of mine, family member who sells and, and he swears it's all about like golfing and drinking and like that's, that's the thing. But I feel like it it is kind of a matrix, right? There is that business relationship. I need to make you successful. And then there's the human part. So it's one of those gray it's, it's, it's neither this nor that, but we, we got a matrix and do both, right?
00:11:28
Speaker
Absolutely. And let's I'm not opposed to the golfing and the and the dinners and the go out for happy hours and the social life. There are certain products or certain industries where that is absolutely the way things get done. And then there are other ones where you can sell multi-million dollar deals and never meet the person face to face. Right. Every industry product or environment is going to be different, knowing the elements. Now, but let's take that golfing thing for just a second. While you're golfing and drinking and and playing the the course, what's going on? You're building a bond. You're building friendship. You're telling stories. You might even get vulnerable and share something or receive something that someone has shared. And that's building engagement, which ultimately leads to trust.
00:12:18
Speaker
Which leads to familiarity, which leads to I want to be around
Sales Leadership Challenges
00:12:22
Speaker
that person. Yeah. And by the way, I'll give them my business as a result. Yeah. so I'm sorry, David, you you touched on that last week. And and i I really love that, that I want to be around this person because of how I feel when I'm with this person. And you you just resurrected that. And that's such a valid point about the human relationship side. i I used to teach at the university level and I taught a branding course and I would often talk about what a brand is and it's a promise of an expected experience as one kind of definition from another person. and And let's take the car for example again. You're not necessarily buying the car because of what it can do. All the cars are going to get you from A to B.
00:13:06
Speaker
But the car you choose makes you feel something about yourself while you're going from A to B. I feel strong, safe, secure, sexy, powerful, whatever it is. And I like those things about myself. Now, take that into our friendships and our relationships. I suggested to my class of students, and I said, perhaps we choose our friends not necessarily for who they are, but how we feel about ourselves when we are around them. yeah Now, let's translate that one step further into the selling environment. How does the buyer feel about themselves when they are around me, the salesperson? yeah Do they feel rushed, hurried, cranky, pressured? Do they not like themselves because they're they don't have enough time or energy to do that? Or do they feel like, oh my gosh, I can trust David. I feel comfortable and confident and safe around him. He's going to help me make good choices.
00:14:01
Speaker
How do I feel about myself when I hang out with you, Brian? Determines a lot about the quality of our relationship and ultimately in a business environment, will I give you business and
Motivating Sales Teams
00:14:10
Speaker
money? yeah So I think if we shift our perspective that way, we also think differently about those types of engagements. Yeah. I, I'm so glad we wandered back into that because that did strike me that when, when you and I were talking last week, that notion of, I think that's the ultimate to me of the the human side of a business relationship is does that person feel good? And I like how you added, do they feel rushed? Do they feel pressured? So that that's like, if we're looking for a target to me, that's it. So.
00:14:37
Speaker
Moving the conversation we've been talking a lot about about selling and like per personal brand and and how you do this human thing how about as a as a leader you have some thoughts about like this same kind of notion about how you employed some of this in and leadership role as a zero. Yeah, I don't want to forget one thing here that as a ah CRO or a business leader, I live and die by the numbers. yeah right At the end of the day, I've got to hit that revenue number. I have got to hit that ah revenue goal. I've got to grow my my revenue as an organization by product, by market, by customer level.
00:15:15
Speaker
Or I need to increase profitability or share I mean I that is ultimately why I am at that CSR level of an organization and if I'm not doing that all this feel-good stuff doesn't mean anything right yeah so you can't separate ourselves out from the fact that we do have some pressure on us to generate revenue. Now that's sad so then how can we marry these together and so I have to think about production and rewards for my sales team. So there's a wonderful movie you and I talked about this last week that I really shaped my life and how I think about reward systems. And it's a it's a it's called Dangerous Minds and Michelle Pfeiffer is the actress and she's working with inner city students who are saying well we'll never get the A.
00:16:05
Speaker
And she says, well, here's the thing. You have the A right now. It's your job to keep it. So rather from starting from the bottom and working your way up from scarcity into abundance, what if we just start with abundance and it's your job to maintain that? I think as a leader, if I impart that to my teams, they approach their jobs very differently. So perhaps that commission, you already have earned it. It's your job to keep it. Now there's some ah HR issues and some pay structures and yeah you've got to be creative and work that out. And maybe you can't mess with commissions but maybe you can mess with other types of reward mechanisms within the organization and just start at a hundred. And that reward is there and it's the salesperson's job to keep it. And then here's some tools to help you keep it. So already I changed the narrative with you.
00:16:56
Speaker
I've eliminated all of the worries around, will I make my numbers this month? Will I get my bonus? Will I be able to pay? Will I be able to do whatever it might be to? I've already got it. So now I don't have to worry about those things. So let me focus in on my job. Yeah. I think the other thing is, is we're asking people to make Titanic ships in their thinking and their styles and their approaches and not just my salespeople downstream. but my CEO upstream, right? Getting my CEO to think differently about how we approach revenue and production is just as important as getting my team members to behave differently as
Internal Narrative Shifts
00:17:34
Speaker
they go out. So I have to think about it from multiple perspectives. And as just as I'm wanting to change the narrative with my customers or target audiences, maybe we can change the narrative internally as well. And then I will just say the last thing is you have to have a good tool.
00:17:50
Speaker
CRM tool or other type of analytical tool that tracks all of this. Because without that as a baseline foundation where engagements, where information about clients and customers and markets, relationships without activity isn't being tracked, then I got no tools to work with and to measure again that production so I can then reward. So that's a really essential tool as well. Yeah, I love the idea of of communicating up as well. So one thing that struck me as you were you mentioned, I think ah that people are going to behave differently. So many folks that I talked to these days, especially in enterprise sales, were rolling out some initiative. It's a new ah you know account planning tool. ah and And in order to do that, we need people to behave differently and change, right? And and I just wonder like how
00:18:44
Speaker
the Like last week, I was speaking with someone on the podcast who did empathy mapping, you know, how how do people feel about this change? And then how do we design the change, given to how they feel? And I just, yeah, I just want to tie tie this human sort of focus thing back to behavior change in order to meet the number, we need to get these things done in order to make the number. Yeah. How do you think this approach or how would we do some of this to to get humans more bought off to actually behave differently? Yeah, well, first up, I'm not a believer that people don't like change. We often will say that and there's been books about it who moved my cheese and you know, all these famous articles and stuff that people don't like change. That's a fallacy. I love my iPhone. I love my new phone. It's so much better than that thing. I was on the wall that I had to dial as a kid and I was stuck by the court so much better.
00:19:37
Speaker
My car today is so much better than my Datsun B210 I drove around in high school, right? Change has been great for us. What people don't like is the in-between spaces. We're creating uncertainty, insecurity, questions, and so we can help people manage that space in between. then I think we get more acceptance, more buy-in, and a shorter on-ramping to changing people's behaviors.
Changing Behavior with EQ
00:20:07
Speaker
But I'm also a big believer in two more things about change in people. Number one, the only way I'm going to get you to change your behavior is to get you to change the way you think. um And this is what I've learned again from that Renaissance education I've had for religion and psychology and education. As we think, so we do. And if I want a different outcome of behavior, I have to change the paradigm.
00:20:28
Speaker
So by the way, also works within the customer sales perspective. If I want you to change your consumer behavior, or you're buying behavior, I need you to think differently about things. So what can I introduce in those engagements? whether it be education, experiences, coaching, mentoring, counseling, whatever it might be, to help you get through that transition period from, I believe one thing, but now I need to believe something else. I think one way, now I need to think another way. How can I shorten that and get to a behavior change more quickly? yeah For my sales team, I've
00:21:10
Speaker
often used emotional intelligence training. And there's some nifty little books out there on the market. I think they're great. And we just read them. We read about it and it helps people understand where they're starting from and where they may need to be in order to acquire or achieve the things that change is promising them. yeah And so helping people understand where they're at through emotional intelligence or EQ training can often help with that. I'm, I'm really glad you went there and I'm, I'm a big proponent. And I wonder for for those who maybe at a high level get it, what, what's your sort of simplest definition of, of EQ or emotional intelligence? The simplest one is being aware of your own emotions, why you're feeling that. Uh, so what am I feeling? Why am I feeling it? What do I think about my feelings? Yeah. And what am I going to do about it?
00:22:07
Speaker
And then, am I aware in the same of other people's feelings? yeah yeah So it is that self-awareness, not just and being able to label it. My son, when he was growing up, would get frustrated. And I'm like, how are you feeling right now? And he goes, it's just stupid. I'm like, well, stupid is not a feeling. right And if anyone's had a teenager, they know that that's the first they're not emotionally are you able to identify or articulate or describe their emotions. It's just stupid, dad. I'm like, OK, that's not emotional. Let's keep talking. So going to ourselves, I'm feeling something. What is it? Being able to label it and identify why I'm feeling it. I'm feeling happy today because I'm feeling sad or scared because I'm feeling vulnerable. I'm i'm feeling elated, whatever it might be.
00:22:54
Speaker
So why what am i feeling why am i feeling it and then what do i think this is a really important part of emotional intelligence because it's not just about sitting inside of our feelings it's now by using our cognitive side to go. So what what do i think about that do i like this feeling do i want more of this feeling do i want to avoid this feeling do i want to sit here for a while in the street but what am i thinking about. all like And then ultimately what am I gonna do about what am I gonna do because of it what am I going to change in my own behavior because of it so often times the easiest ones are. I'm feeling fat okay fat is not a feeling I'm feeling discouraged why am I feeling that because I'm overweight how do I feel about that I don't like being overweight great so what am I gonna do about that so I can change that condition.
00:23:48
Speaker
You can do that in the business world. I'm feeling frustrated today. Why? Because I'm not making my numbers. OK, how do I think about that? I want to make my numbers. What am I going to do differently about that? And then ultimately, once we train ourselves to do that, we get good at understanding and empathizing those around us so that while we're in that sales beating, I can listen to that client or that target audience and begin to empathize, put myself in their shoes. Now, one key thing I like to do in these sales meetings is I'm a big fan of team meetings because the person doing the pitching is thinking they're they've got the points they need to get through. I always like to have a note taker, somebody who's just scribbling everything down that everyone is saying that everything is going on. All the action items are coming out of it. And then I like to have a third person there just to listen and feel the vibe of the meeting.
00:24:43
Speaker
Listen for the unasked question. listen for the or Look for the side glances when people are talking and you know all of a sudden they start looking at each other. Look for the downward glances when you start pitching and they look away or they get bored. Look for those things because those are cues to what's going on and that allows the team to also operate in a highly emotionally intelligent manner while they're doing their sales pitching. So that's, I think, emotional intelligence in a nutshell, but how we can use it to our advantage as well.
Strategic Use of Emotional Intelligence
00:25:17
Speaker
You know, what one of the things I love about this this ah framework you just laid out of of somebody asking the question, someone recording the question and someone watching is when we coached on on deals for many years in my and my past business. and and And we coached on one of our clients had what they called Giga deals, which were billion dollar deals. And we prescribed that same thing, who who's who's speaking, who's recording and and who's watching. and And the debrief, especially if this is multiple round meetings, unbelievably valuable. Another thing that that you touched on too as it relates to EQ, what am i one of my favorite writers says that when when when you stop starring in the movie and you can start you can start watching the movie, but that that to me, that's a big part of EQ. When you're all wrapped up and you're in the middle of this hurricane, as opposed to stepping back and watching the hurricane and observing
00:26:07
Speaker
What the hell is going on? and And especially, I want to tie this back to something you said earlier. How does that other human feel when they're with you? If you're not emotionally intelligent, that's going to be a really, that to me, it struck me. That's the leading indicator. You've got to really care and pay attention and to a degree, as you say, be trained in this, right? And and maybe that's just reading a book. Absolutely. I mean, just take the simplest of a networking event. You've got that cocktail hour, you're in a conference or an event, and everybody's good you know put in the same room, and you've got your plate of edible food, little bites, and you've got your your cocktail or drink with you. And now you've got to go make small talk with people.
00:26:47
Speaker
And there's this opportunity where you just stand there and sometimes you look at each other because you've run out of things to say it has nothing to do with being shy or an introvert or an extrovert. It's simply the ability to connect with people and you'll begin to see those people who naturally are empathetic and make you feel comfortable standing there. You start to feel less nervous or anxious or you're enjoying yourself All of a sudden, those are the people that are you know finding those truly empathetic and emotionally intelligent people. Emotionally intelligent people can sit there and go, I don't like networking. I feel uncomfortable.
00:27:29
Speaker
Why do I feel uncomfortable? Because I don't like small talk. Right? What do I think about that? Well, I have to do this for my job. So I'm going to grin, grit and bear it. And what am I going to do? I'm going to prepare five questions. I'm going to stand here and I'm going to endure this and I can all of a sudden, there's a self awareness and presence that's established that other people begin to gravitate towards and like about themselves. Yeah, yeah. and You can just tell who those people are in those events. it's It's so funny you you remind me of an event many many years ago as I was working a room, you know a couple hundred people in the room and I was a VP of Sales. One of my sales guys was married to a Chicago politician whose father was a Chicago politician, or Aurelia Pachinski. And Aurelia and her father Roman had been in Chicago politics forever. And she walked up to me, she was a small woman.
00:28:18
Speaker
She walked up and looked up at me and she said, Deep Meyer, get that glazed look off your face right now. And she was so like, she, she busted me, but I think only a human that's in politics, that's trained in reading the room. I wasn't even aware that I had checked out. So it's also valid. So one of the, this, uh, you, you know, I was, I was really looking forward to this discussion and, and I'd sort of pull some of this together that. You talked about soft skills and I often talk about those too, that we want to talk about more soft skills on this show. These are really, here's what just struck me. These are next level skills. These are not soft skills. These are next level skills. Cause this isn't simple stuff in, in one sense. and So, but it's also the other thing you leaned into is the, the balance of yeah, these, these soft skills.
00:29:05
Speaker
drive your results. And and there's there's a couple different ways we go about driving results. and And if you look at this as an alternative, I think it's a much more healthy, healthy way and a culturally healthy way, whether it's internal or external with customers. and I think that these are, again, these are skills that you need to apply with wisdom. Not everybody wants to be in a very highly empathetic space. when crafting a business deal. Okay. But having the empathy and emotional intelligence to recognize that is really important. So we're not saying this is a one size fits all. It is a skill that you can learn over time.
Teaching Emotional Intelligence
00:29:47
Speaker
It is an ability that I think anybody can strengthen over time to learn to apply at the appropriate measure and the appropriate amounts and the appropriate times.
00:29:59
Speaker
And I believe that as we get more practice with it, we get better at it. Practice doesn't make perfect, but it just does help you learn how to apply this along the way. And there's going to be pushback as you are learning this, as you're experiencing this, and as as a CRO, as I'm even leading it. I've had CEOs or other departments even the HR department at sometimes push back going, Why are you teaching this? Or why are you focusing on this? That's, we're not counselors, we're not therapists. And I'm like, Well, definitely we're not. That's what our company's EAP program is for. But what we can do is make any more emotionally intelligent workforce
00:30:40
Speaker
Which by the way, I think makes them better at all aspects of their jobs, even interacting with their coworkers. So it's a benefit that goes across the organization.
Balancing Data and EQ
00:30:49
Speaker
I will end with this, this, this, you know, and this matrix approach that you have, you know, the data and the technology along with the EQ, I think it's perfect. And I'm glad, really glad you kept the balance on, hey, we we we got a, we have to produce. So you've been super generous to me. this is ah you You shared a lifetime of skills and ah and education in in about 30 minutes here that i I really appreciate. So thank you so much for sharing. great Thanks Brian, I appreciate you having me.