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From "Selling Out" to Selling Big - The Path of the Passionate Professional
114 Plays3 years ago
Channel Your Passion into Client Success
Max talks to Caleb Young, creative director at world-class video production company, Hand Crank Films of the Pacific Northwest. Learn how Caleb went from someone who thought doing corporate video was “selling out” to someone who learned to love the process of turning his passion for film into beautiful videos for his clients that are anything but typical “corporate”. Caleb creates over a million dollars of revenue a year for the agency that owns Hand Crank AND stays true to his soul and vision - listen in to find out how.
Also included:
- Talking deal making and how to win the game of “Budget-Chicken”
Disclaimer: Hand Crank Films was the company Max started nearly 20 years ago, and sold 3 years ago.
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Transcript
Introduction: Max Keiser and Caleb Young
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome back to Crossing the Axis, the biz side of video production. I am your host, Max Keiser. I'm also the CEO of Pipeline Production Management Software for video professionals. And I am excited as hell today to have a special guest on my show, Caleb Young. Welcome, Caleb.
00:00:29
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for asking me to do this. Yeah, thank you. Caleb and I go pretty far back.
Caleb's Career Journey
00:00:36
Speaker
Basically, this is the sort of this is a sort of quick short stories. I hired Caleb at my old company Handcrank Films and Caleb worked for for Handcrank for a number of years doing some incredible work. Then Caleb went out on his own.
00:00:53
Speaker
And then Caleb joined up, I think, with an agency, and forgive me if I get some of this wrong, but then that agency that he joined up with, Caleb wound up masterminding that agency buying my company from me. And now Caleb basically runs my old company within that agency. Caleb, is that right?
00:01:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's pretty pretty close. I would say Micah runs everything because he's the business mind. But yeah, and he when I was on my own, we started working together through an agency. He was at and that's how we met. And so he started hiring me and then acquired my company.
00:01:30
Speaker
And then worked for work for that agency and did a kind of had a production company part of that agency. And then you I heard that you were going to close your doors or take a hiatus and had a great breakfast with you and just kind of flowed the idea like, hey, what do you think about like, we love your brand. You've built this incredible brand with incredible work. Let's not let's not put it to bed. Let's let's keep it going. And and through a couple of meetings that it happened and and then Covid
Handcrank Films During COVID
00:01:59
Speaker
hit.
00:01:59
Speaker
And because of the work we had and the name we had, we were able to get work and actually excelled and did really well through COVID. And I think a part of that is the work we did. It also helped that we have a design and animation team on the agency side.
00:02:20
Speaker
And, um, and then the brand of hand crank just got people calling up. And so we, um, yeah, we did well. Yeah. It's been awesome to see, you know, how you folks have, uh, carried on the sort of tradition of sort of emotional storytelling and, and, um, and just expanded upon it. Um, you've built a beautiful website around it, which, you know, to all you listeners, like go take a look at the hand crank films website. If you want to see what.
00:02:50
Speaker
a very cool video production website that sells looks like, because of course our websites are absolutely critical in our sales toolkit.
Company Growth and Investments
00:03:00
Speaker
And it's often the first place that people see our work, but they do a really nice job of like showcasing the work itself within a really beautiful website. So it just sort of looks like everything's been given a lot of care. So it's pretty awesome. So tell me about how,
00:03:17
Speaker
Let's just start with, how's Handcrank doing? What kind of revenue and stuffs are doing these days? So we have an agency and a production company together as one kind of creative firm. And so we've been averaging since we purchased Handcrank. We're averaging, it's multimillion dollars over the years consistently. And so, you know, there's ebb and flow with any production, but multimillion is kind of where we're at and comfortably at.
00:03:44
Speaker
and have been lucky enough to be very profitable. And we're able to put away money for the future. We're able to put away money towards creative and we're able to invest in other projects that we really like. And that's been super rewarding. So it's not just our stuff too. We're also supporting other people, which is really fun and people we care about, but people also with cool ideas who we met because they checked out our website and had this project they were pitching. So it's been pretty wonderful to be able to do that.
00:04:11
Speaker
And who are some of the clients right now that you're working with that you're pretty excited about? Well, we have, you know, the tech, the names that don't the companies that don't need to be named, but those tech companies that are kind of our bread and butter. And like, we love the work. We're just hungry. We have like an appetite for video. So whatever it is, we're just excited to keep busy and do the best we can with that stuff. So we have those those clients.
00:04:34
Speaker
And then we, you know, we have local nonprofits that we work with quite
Clients and Project Showcase
00:04:38
Speaker
a bit. We just recently started working with Fremont Brewing, which has been really great. And then, you know, working out, working with companies out of like Finland. And, and then still, that's neural DSP. Yeah. They, and they saw our music, like our music section on our website and reached out and we've now from Finland. Yeah. Like the website, man. That's like,
00:05:02
Speaker
That's so cool. I'll never forget when Google found us on Google. I think, yeah, I really love that. Yeah. Google projects were years ago. I think it's hard because it costs a lot to make a website. We luckily had an internal person do it, but like it has gotten us work. Like there is an ROI to the time we put into it and the design and kind of the thought we put into it. And so a lot of this work, Fremont neural, um,
00:05:28
Speaker
even some of these bigger tech companies, some of the nonprofits, it comes from people being able to go to our site, see our work. And so when you talked to them the first time, like, what'd you like? And they're like, we like these three videos. And so you're able to say like, yeah, we can do that for you. So it's not like, hey, what can you do? You already, you skipped that question in that first meeting. They already know what you can do because they saw on the site. And so they, and that's why they chose you. So it makes that transition a lot easier.
00:05:53
Speaker
Yeah. And again, that's handcrankfilms.com for you to check out what that
Transition to Video Production
00:05:58
Speaker
site looks like. Because again, it's a really good example of I think you guys kind of did like a Netflix style kind of feeling is what I remember. Like, you know, as it kind of just felt very like movie-esque, you know, and that was that was pretty cool and sort of like viewer-esque as opposed to like informational. It was put that video content really first and foremost.
00:06:23
Speaker
Yeah. We wanted people to be able to, to watch the videos and kind of get into it and feel like they're just like your school and through Netflix, you know, they want to be able to like, Hey, I want to watch this video. And then you have a suggestion afterwards and watch this video. And we got away from like the real, I think the real is a really beautiful thing. It kind of show all your, put all your stuff together, but it's very visual and it shows editing and cinematography a lot of time. And sometimes graphics, we kind of want to show the whole piece. And so we built the side around showing the work.
00:06:49
Speaker
I wonder about reels. I'm not too sure about reels. I think if a reel shows off the personality of the company in some way, I think that's really cool. But if a reel is just showing the work, aren't you better off actually just giving them the individual pieces of work so they can judge like, okay, well,
00:07:11
Speaker
You know because you look at a real it's like I can't tell what those are part of or like what the ultimate like product that those were selling was I just can tell that you can make some pretty pictures and edit it together in a cool fashion. And it always takes up so much time it's always hard to do internal projects.
00:07:28
Speaker
Yeah. And then you're like, here it is. And sometimes you rush it out. Cause she's like, geez, I've been working. I've been trying to get this done for a couple of months. Let's just put it out. I think the most effective reels for me, um, are DP reels. Cause then you see their style. Of course. Like you look at, you look at like Cozer's reel and you're like, Oh, okay. I know what he can do. triscoser.com probably.
00:07:48
Speaker
But just yeah, Chris Kozer, he's he's he's how I met Caleb. Caleb, Chris was working for me at hand crank and he said, hey, there's this guy and you were a teacher at the time, right? I was a teacher. Yeah, teacher. What grade were you teaching? I was teaching freshman and juniors in English and English and trying to force film into those classes, too. So we watched a lot of don't do this teaching as a little suckers.
00:08:13
Speaker
And I miss the relationships with the kids and talking about like like novels and like arguing and discussion. But no, I don't I don't miss teaching. I mean, you have your own kid, too, so you can talk about that stuff with them. And they're a teenager now. So exactly. She actually goes to the school that I taught at, which is really funny. It's going to be hard for her to like, you know, kind of hide what she's doing.
00:08:42
Speaker
You know, you kind of know the deal. I do. I know it all. No, I remember when you made the leap.
Video Production Challenges
00:08:48
Speaker
I remember when we were like, hey, you know, why don't you come work for us? And we were all in-house at the time. God bless that period. And and then we were just like, hey, do you want to come work in-house with us? And I remember it was a hard decision because you had a wife, you had Lacey, you had and then did you have the kid yet? I can't remember. Kelly was yeah. Kelly was like three, I think at the time. Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, that's a lot, right? And that's in our business, right? I think there's like the, when you're hobbing around in the beginning and it's fun and cool and it's cooler than pretty much anything to be making videos, but then you're like, you start like living your actual life and you actually start like having commitments like marriage and family and homes and kids and things that like make a life like kind of stressful, but awesome too. But you have more, let's say than just like your bike.
00:09:41
Speaker
and like, you know, your camera to be a responsibility. And it makes these decisions a little bit harder, you know?
Commercial Work: Skills and Passion
00:09:52
Speaker
Yeah. And as you get older, you have less time to play. So getting a job and doing film as a job is more challenging.
00:10:04
Speaker
And when you're younger, you can kind of build. And I think that's like, I think you were interested in my work because you saw Nate Natalie that played at the festival you did. And I shot it. And that's what got my name kind of kind of in your ears, how you kind of knew who I was. And I think that's I think that's what to me, Kozer vouched for me because we worked together. And that was he got me the interview. But I remember you knowing my work enough to know like, oh, he can make it. And that's one thing I always tell people is like,
00:10:30
Speaker
How to become a director I become a filmmaker just got to go do it, because then at some point someone who is hiring will see your work and say, Hey, I want to work with you. And that's, I mean, you were really worried about selling out basically selling. Oh man, what I know what I'm. That's like the worst it's like a young esoteric films right. Oh for sure.
00:10:54
Speaker
And shooting on film, they were shot on like on film and they were like, like, uh, short ends and stuff that you, you know, cobbled together. But even doing video was sort of like, but food, but food and then like working for corporate clients and selling out. That's so dumb though, because like.
00:11:12
Speaker
selling out to me it's just it's a young person's idea of art like the ability to make money making films you can build your craft around a commercial for like even like someone like as dialed in as Microsoft but you have to light it well you have to shoot it well you have to know what you're doing and then when you have time off or you have saved up some money then you go make your film and you have all these technical things that you
00:11:35
Speaker
Yes, you technically some like 21 year old might say you sold out, but now you can go make a film that looks polished looks really nice you kind of know what you're doing and even if you're like I'm gonna go handheld I'm gonna shoot all natural light, you still have all those technical skills that you got from working for a client who paid you to make movies, and I think that's the thing that
Creative Freedom and Collaboration
00:11:55
Speaker
Selling out is not a thing, especially when you start to have a family. You kind of have to make choices that allow you to pay the bills or work at Home Depot and then make films on the side. And that's fine, too, or be a teacher and make films in the summer, which I know people who do that. And that's awesome. If you want to work full time and pay a mortgage.
00:12:15
Speaker
And get your kid to go to school and hit fake and go on vacations and put food on the table and all that stuff you kind of have to make a choice of like, and why be, you know, just a teacher when you get to be part of the incredible community that is the production services community which let's face it is like the most awesome.
00:12:35
Speaker
group of people in the world, right? Like, it's just such a great, like, it's just a great community. I mean, it is in our area, but I have a sense it is in every area. I don't know, maybe not LA, who knows. But, but like, it just is like the most
00:12:52
Speaker
fun group of people and sort of intelligent MacGyver-ish type group of people that you're going to run into. So if you get the opportunity to sort of travel with that crowd, it's pretty good.
00:13:06
Speaker
Yeah. And you meet so many challenging people that as you grow together, you find what you are, are good at together. And if someone kind of fills in the producer role, someone fills in the DP role, someone fills in the sound role, you meet those people. And I love that collaborative nature of film. And then there's this, there's these relationships that you have over years of working together and, um, and it makes the work better and it makes, um, the, the shooting fun. And I don't know, I'm glad.
00:13:36
Speaker
I'm glad that I made the jump to start working in production as, you know, corporate stuff because it's allowed me, I mean, I'm here because of that. And I don't, I'd probably still be making films, but they would be smaller indie films that I'd make on the side. And now I get a good, Oh, I was just going to say now I get to make
00:13:56
Speaker
creative stuff like on the job, like we get to do creative projects.
Project Highlights: Neural DSP and UW Medicine
00:14:00
Speaker
And so I get to still make those movies, but I'm also making a living. And we have people working for us. So there's a bunch of people making a living doing creative work for people who are paying you, which is just clients are the best man, they're paying you to do your craft.
00:14:13
Speaker
And you are always a good advocate for yourself financially. You know what I mean? I mean, you would always be like, I gotta be making this. What's it gonna take for me to be making this? That was Lacey. That was Lacey. She's my agent. Yeah, she's my agent. That's sometimes the way it works though, isn't it? You know what I mean? Like, sometimes it is our loved ones that are like, hey, guess what? This is great that you're doing what you really love. But now it's, you know, it's also worth something to people. You know, I needed, the guy that was that for me, of course, is Chris Donaldson, right?
00:14:43
Speaker
Oh yeah, totally. He would, you know, because we were busy giving away our video and he'd be like, dude, you can't do that. You know what I mean? And so like, but that was good that you had your wife on your personal level to, you know, to sort of help you do that and work towards those things. And I think it's probably served you.
00:15:05
Speaker
really, really well to have that and have someone looking after like, you know, the bottom line and so forth. But you are always like this most like super duper passionate person. And I think that was, I just remember in the beginning, that was the struggle is like, how do you channel your passion into
00:15:21
Speaker
sort of what you're making for the client, which by the way, you nearly always do really successfully and I can see it. You sent me some of Handcrank's recent works and just beautiful, like the neural DSP piece, go on the website, look at the neural DSP piece for this new like sort of foot.
00:15:40
Speaker
box thing that they have for different looping. It's called Looper. It's a looper effect thing. And it's just an awesome. Where was that location, by the way? I want to live in that house for like ever. What is that? What is that house that it was shot? It was a house we found. My producer, Alyssa, found it on care space in Laurel Canyon. So the artist is from London. He's touring in America right now.
00:16:06
Speaker
And he something happened, he wasn't able to shoot this thing in in London. And so they hired us to fight on the L.A. and shoot it. And we just found a great location. That's kind of what we do with Nuro. We find the best location we can that kind of fits the music or fits the person in the brand. And then we just spend a day shooting and.
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah, you know, with with a great location and in music, it's like it's a home run every time, right? You just got to make it look good and it's fun. Isn't that funny? It's just the part. If you have the parts, if you just have the parts, then you're pretty much set. So you have a great location, you have a great musician. And obviously the like the box is super cool, the Looper thing that you're doing.
00:16:40
Speaker
and that's kind of what I loved about that video is it was just super basic but it's gotten tons and tons of downloads and if you look in the comments it's just one person selling the other person on it like without any sales person ever being involved. They're all like I just needed to see that video to know why I needed to buy the looper thingy and you know I love that guitar so much and there's just like sort of respect all around and it just it
00:17:04
Speaker
It seems like it's a really positive thing between you, the client, the product, the star of the ad, you know, just everything. And I just thought that that was, it's a really excellent piece. You should check it out. And then you jump over and, you know, I don't know, is the piece about, uh, Brian's brain, is that, is that, um, is that like out yet, or were you just sending me that before it's come out? No, no, uh, math brain, we did, uh, last year, last year. And, um,
00:17:30
Speaker
We did it for UW Medicine, the Brain Lab, and it was for their fundraising night.
Balancing Passion and Client Needs
00:17:35
Speaker
We're trying to raise money for the Brain Lab. They must have raised like a zillion dollars. What did they raise? I can't remember. They did.
00:17:42
Speaker
you done a medicine set it was for for kind of the the type they do it was one of their biggest successes i'm sure i mean the video was just like oh my god it was this heart just so hard as a dad you know and myself and you just the whole the whole story the whole aspect of it but it was just it was excellently executed i think the way that you let the story tell itself
00:18:04
Speaker
didn't feel it could have easily so easily been, you know, when you get these really emotional, like, stories, it's easy to, to push it and make it modeling, and you didn't, you just played it really far back, and it was just, it was, it was really excellently done. And so then and then you have those and then you have that nice piece for Prism, which shows off sort of the visual acuity.
00:18:25
Speaker
of like you know that it's really unique and really high and visuals and of course the Prism job has always been fantastic for that for you is like just and this is a it's a the Prism Awards it's like an award ceremony every year and Caleb has made the sort of award videos for those for years and it's really cool opportunity that this company gives you a decent budget to go out and shoot these like sort of
00:18:51
Speaker
I don't know. Would you like to like these visual journeys that you sort of go on? Yeah, it started abstract years ago and then and then now we've been put there still abstract. Yeah. And we're but we're pushing more towards having people in them. Last year we did like us for fun because we couldn't be in person. We did like a Spielberg riff off so that we had India. We call the Jurassic Jones and we had like
00:19:13
Speaker
this person dressed up as Indiana Jones in this dinosaur suit chasing around. It was kind of silly, but we got to shoot like Spielberg and Dave Richards, our sound guy, he created like the score that was kind of like a John Williams vibe. And it was a blast. And so this year I was like, let's do serious, but let's lean more towards sci-fi and be able to do that. But that's the thing I think, out of all the things you're saying, the thing that's true in all those things is the client. The client seeing the work and saying,
00:19:42
Speaker
what do you want to do with this? But it's also your, I mean, those are all your passions. I mean, those are three different sides of the coin for like what you get into, right? Like it's like, it's the side of the coin, which is sort of music and stuff like that, which you're deadly into.
00:20:01
Speaker
And then you have this side of the coin that's just like the super emotional sort of storytelling and then sort of drag people to their feet. And then you have the sort of just sort of visual like panache that's just exciting to do. So my question is, how have you found
00:20:24
Speaker
the path, channeling those passions of yours that you showed up at the door of hand crank. What was it? 12 years ago, 13 years ago? I don't know. Yeah. And that you showed up with those passions and successfully channeled them into what your clients need for their videos and also then felt in return satisfied with what the hell you're doing with your life. Yeah, that's a good question. I think
00:20:51
Speaker
I think it starts with listening because I have a style for sure. And it's overly emotional a lot of times. But I listen and see what they're trying to say. And then from there, it's just I invest. I care. Like I care a lot about the story. And I think about it as I'm telling making a film. It's a short film. It's something that I want. And I think about character more than anything. Like what it who are the characters and what are they?
00:21:17
Speaker
what they're trying to say and that could be for a nonprofit which act with actual people that you're interviewing and talking through it could be for like Matt's brain which is these like grieving parents talking about their son who's not with them anymore and how his brain is being studied to understand TBI but it's about like investing and it's exhausting a lot of times because you have to to make good work you have to really care and you have to put that forward and
00:21:43
Speaker
You know, you have the client who you have to satisfy. You have like personally, I have to satisfy myself creatively, but it's really finding that that emotional thread that can kind of go through both that can get me like I'm getting my style and then I'm getting what they need. And I think it's it comes down to.
00:22:03
Speaker
It comes down to really almost meditating on the idea and then saying, hey, here's where I'm coming from and going to, you know, whether it's a script or it's a picture, whatever, just saying, OK, here's tell them what this is what you want. You want it to feel emotional. You want to get people to give money. You want to tell the story about this, these parents and their struggle. OK, here's my here's my suggested direction. And then from there, it's like a conversation about how we get there. And then once we land on that, then it's time to get to work.
00:22:33
Speaker
And you think about how, how do you see it? And, you know, I used to be adverse to closeups, but as over the years, I realized like, man, seeing someone's eyes, Anderson, like, Oh man, I know. I don't know. I don't know. It was weird. I don't know why closeups are amazing when you don't overuse them, but being able to see it. And a lot of times, um, I used to over plan when I started working at hand crank, I actually stopped.
00:22:57
Speaker
storyboarding and shot listing as much because I feel like in the moment you find you find the best thing to shoot in the moment you show up you work through blocking you figure it out and you're like oh man if I just sit here and see this moment here oh can I just i'm just going to shoot this empty bench here which is like a weird and it's in Matt's brain there's like this empty bench and like
Budgeting and Client Expectations
00:23:18
Speaker
it's metaphorical it's weird like people why are you shooting the bench and then you see it in the movie you're like oh it's a like it's
00:23:24
Speaker
It shows the emptiness of the scene or whatever. And so really, a lot of it is just trying to find the moments on set and then preparing as much as you can and making sure you're hitting the things a client is asking, but also pushing towards what you feel. It's hard to put it tangibly because a lot of it is instinctual. It's taste and it's instincts and it's trusting yourself. And if the client trusts you, you usually get to a good point. And if they know your work, they know what they're asking you to do. It's not like
00:23:53
Speaker
someone's gonna come to me like, hey, can you make something like Uber stylized like Wes Anderson? They wouldn't, because I don't do that and I wouldn't do it well. They're like, hey, can you make something emotional that feels like you're in the moment? That's what I'm really good at. Yeah, well, I mean, I can tell a funny story, like, where I mean, people like,
00:24:11
Speaker
What I want to tell people out there is this technique, it actually also really does work as part of the sales process too. And I can tell you firsthand because I actually competed against Caleb's company after you left. I don't even know if you know this story. I don't think you do. But you went off, started your own thing.
00:24:35
Speaker
And shortly thereafter, I got a call from someone that makes batting cages, right? Batting cages. And I went out to where the hell he was. And he said, well, I just met with this kid, and he's talking about you. And he told me he was going to make me these really fantastic views, but they're going to be really, really expensive. But he was really into what he was going to make for us. And he got really like, you know,
00:25:03
Speaker
just really like emotionally invested in what we were going to do and all that. And what are you going to do? And at the time I was really on this tip of trying to, you know, to, to just like, I was more concerned with like, well, well, you know, can I just, I'll just keep your budget real, real low. How's that? And I'll keep your budget real low. And there's a bad encased video, man. I mean, what the hell are we going to do here? So I'll just kind of,
00:25:29
Speaker
You know, we'll make like 10 videos out of a template, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, and it's going to be like a lot cheaper than what Caleb told you he was going to do it for. And it's going to be fine. You're going to have some great bat and cage videos for your website. There you go.
00:25:41
Speaker
And at the time, and for the product I was offering, I thought that was the right thing. But he ultimately did wind up going with you. And so in retrospect, I've looked back over the different choices I made as I tried out different hats and tried different ways of selling. And I'll say that not only is your way more fun,
00:26:05
Speaker
and your way is a way that of course I did for a long time and then I kind of was trying some other ways but it's not only more fun but actually honestly you sell more and you actually wind up doing better getting bigger budgets because I'm sure you got a way better budget for those than I ever would have and it just winds up being a people really do care that you care
00:26:28
Speaker
And they relate with what you relate to. And if they don't, you know, maybe fuck them. I don't know. I mean, maybe and that was going to be my question is like, how do you how do you sort of
00:26:41
Speaker
Not everyone's going to respond to this. You know what I mean? Not everyone is going to be like, you know, what about the client that you just want so bad that you can see the potential. You pitch them in like, dude, it's going to be so great. We're going to do all this. And they're just like, no, no, we just want to make this like talking head and like a little graphic. What are you going to do? Are you going to do it? Are you not going to do it? What's the plan? Uh, I, we do it. I mean, that's the thing we, but, but it, but expectations like,
00:27:09
Speaker
So a lot of the times, Micah's really good at this. He taught me, you should just ask for the budget. Micah is your boss. Micah's my boss, and he's the managing partner of
Low-Budget Projects and Profitability
00:27:20
Speaker
Variant and Handcrank, the creative team. And he just started asking, it's so uncomfortable. No one ever asks, what's your budget? It's always like, what's your budget? What's your budget? What's your budget? It's a back and forth. We just ask, what's your ballpark? What's going to get a yes?
00:27:38
Speaker
And if the yes is 5,000 for us to do like 10 videos of someone talking to the camera, then maybe that's a one man crew. But what that does is that gets people work. So people will work, but we set the expectations like it's going to look good because we have good cameras. You have good lighting, but it's going to be this thing. We're not going to go and make like a Mackie style video, like with all this production value for five grand. Now there has been some things we look at and you're like,
00:28:03
Speaker
creatively, that's cool. And we want to do it. And we're not going to try to make money on it. We're just going to make something as best as we can with what we got. And I think that's, that's great. But there's also just the realization of like, I think this is a thing that a lot of people, I think need to hear $5,000 seems like not a lot to contractors and other people. $5,000 is a hell of a lot of money to that client.
00:28:26
Speaker
They're not skimming. They're not being cheap. They have five grand. That is their budget. And so it is a lot to them. So we should treat it that way. And I think a lot of times it's like, Oh, five grand. I'm not going to do for that. Okay, cool. Don't do it. That's fine. But if you say yes, don't bitch about it. Don't complain about the fact that it's cheap. Just say, Hey, for five grand, I'm going to have a sound guy.
00:28:45
Speaker
And I'm going to have a director DP, and we're going to do a half day shoot. We're going to get all these things. We're going to do a teleprompter. It's going to go smoothly. And then we're going to chop up into 10 videos and call good. We're not trying to make an award-winning film. We're just trying to make good content for them. And I think a lot of times you hear, oh, the budget's so low, the budget. We don't talk about budget with our teams anymore, especially with our contractors or our team. It's just the budget for the production doesn't matter for you. Let's just make the best work possible. It creates this weird
00:29:16
Speaker
feeling of like, I'm not going to give up my all because it's a low budget. And that's BS. It's like, it's a lot of money to, like if a client comes to you with two grand, maybe that's a project you say no to, but that's a lot to them, especially a nonprofit. If a client comes to you with 50 grand, it's not a lot of money to that. I mean, it's, it's their budget. So it's like, treat it, treat it like it's everything and respect that. And then do your best work within that.
00:29:40
Speaker
So I mean, so we don't we say no, for sure. We say no to stuff. We say we recently said no to a really big job because we didn't want to take away from the projects we're on. We've said no to smaller jobs and pass it on to, you know, someone comes in and is like, hey, do you do AV stuff? No, we're going to send it off to some of our friends locally. So we've passed on stuff for sure. But we've also said yes to some things that
00:30:06
Speaker
I think you would look at the number, you'd be like, that's cheap. And it's like, no, that was cool. And the client loved it because we gave it our all within the box that we were provided with the budget. And as long as on those, you made your margin.
00:30:22
Speaker
And I know you do because you use pipelines, budget tools so much. And that thing is all built towards protecting your freaking margin. And so even on the five grand job, as long as you make your margin,
Negotiation and Client Relations
00:30:35
Speaker
right? Like then you can do like a bunch of them and you're okay. It's just, you know, you got to protect that margin. I want to talk about deal making for one second because you brought up something really interesting and like,
00:30:46
Speaker
And I think that deal making needs its entire own podcast. But the the idea of like who who sort of, you know, the game of chicken that gets played of saying, you know, well, you tell me your budget, you tell me what it's going to cost, you tell me your budget, tell me what it's going to cost.
00:31:03
Speaker
I heard it. A great statement that sounds like where you and Mike are going right now that someone once told me was like, look, if this is what you can say to the client when the game of chicken starts getting going, it's like, look, we can do this and we can go and run out our numbers. And I know you don't want to give me your number because you think, oh, it might be higher.
00:31:26
Speaker
it might be higher than what they're thinking that this thing would cost, right? And so I don't want to like kind of screw myself and maybe they're going to give me a number this lower. Let's realize that that's probably not what's going to happen. Nine times out of 10, I'm going to run the numbers up. It's going to be higher than what you want.
00:31:43
Speaker
And we're going to spend the rest of the time taking things out of the budget that I built and removing things from this great idea. I'm going to be getting less excited about it. You're going to be getting less excited about it as we get down to whatever the number was that you originally had for money. And as you said, a lot of times the client just has that 5,000, right? So if you can just give me that 5,000, or if you can just tell me you've got 5,000,
00:32:09
Speaker
I want to get the job, I want to do these incredible things for you i'm going to do everything I can to figure out how to get my team to do what you ultimately need to get done under that budget. And that is going to wind up being.
00:32:25
Speaker
a way more advantageous place for you, the client, to be operating from because you're going to get all this great stuff that I'm going to try to figure out how to get in there to hit your number. And again, nine times out of 10, the number is probably going to be lower than if
00:32:44
Speaker
Not too many times do you come to me with a higher number, but you might. But even then, I'm really going to go and put all this stuff in there to make you happy and get this done right. But everything is then just like, well, then, hey, what if I had a 7,000? Oh, then I can add this. What if I had a 10,000? It's all going to go forward and up rather than backwards and down.
00:33:04
Speaker
And that's why the idea of getting the client's number from them, if you can, is so much in both parties favor as opposed to just tell me roughly what you think this kind of thing would cost.
00:33:18
Speaker
And it's hard because it's like, what thing like, what do you like? What do you, which video now that's what's nice about having the website. We have people like, we like this, this, and this. And so you have kind of a window and you can say, oh, it's kind of in this area, but I would say, do you want the job? Do you want the job? Then you gotta be flexible. And I think.
00:33:35
Speaker
I think when, let's say a number comes out, and you're the clients like I have 15 and you're like, well, I can only do it for 18. That 3000 is more damaging than I think people realize because all they can think about is the $3,000 of our budget that's a lot for them, whereas for
00:33:51
Speaker
what's the harm in doing their budget at 15 and crushing it? I think the more you push up budget as it goes on, or even in the beginning, like, oh, it's going to cost this. I mean, there's obviously reasons why it should cost more talent, locations, travel, things like that. When it comes to a budget, if you sometimes, every once in a while, a client's like, what are you, and we're like, yeah, it's probably going to cost around 25. We can do 23. Some people I know would be like, no,
00:34:19
Speaker
No, it's 25. That's what it is. And I was like, what value is that to grant if you don't get the job? Yeah, right. And are you going to be able to do this cool job with this cool client? No, because like, you're being like, for it's arbitrary, that it's arbitrary. And you can save money in other ways. You can, like, also, also, if you're profitable in other jobs, and you're really good at keeping things, keeping your margins safe, you can take a little bit
Gratitude and Mentorship
00:34:44
Speaker
of a hit on that. So I don't know, we always ask ourselves, do we want the job? And if we do, what's your number?
00:34:49
Speaker
And it's like, what does it cost? Well, it can cost anywhere from $8,000 for one person to come for a day and do this to $60,000 for us to shoot two days doing this, this, and this. There's a wide range. So what are you looking for? Oh, we're looking for something more like this piece you did. OK, that's in this window. So it's kind of a give and take. But I don't know. I think budgeting is weird. I think sometimes we forget that we're not the most important thing to this client.
00:35:17
Speaker
They have so many other things going on. This is a small part of their job is getting this video made and they have a budget in mind that they have been given by their bosses and it's not really.
00:35:26
Speaker
movable in a lot of ways and so respect it and if you want the job make it work. Don't be afraid to try to get it from them and that's what I like that you guys are doing that you're making that a priority of saying let's just get your number and let us work or let us do the work or working around it let us figure it out you know what I mean and I think that that's really smart and I think that it
00:35:49
Speaker
It's really good for the client. It's really good for you. So I think that's awesome. Well, Caleb, this has been fantastic. And again, I encourage everyone to go look at your site if you want to see what
00:36:05
Speaker
kind of work this kind of thinking generates, which is fabulous, insightful, emotional work. I couldn't be more proud of my baby, the company that I had started and worked with for 15 years, being carried on by people that are just bringing so much more great work under the hood of it and emotional and
00:36:32
Speaker
and just all of that. You folks have just taken it to the next level. So thank you so much for doing that. It's really cool to see. Thank you for continuing to be pipeline customers and using our software to help make that come true. And yeah, I don't know. That's, again, just really appreciate you being on the show and coming out to kind of share your experience with folks.
00:37:01
Speaker
Yeah, man. I just want to say thank you. Like, um, I don't know how many people tell you this, but you started a lot of careers and a lot of really good production companies who were doing great work started under your roof at hand crank. And, uh, you let us crazy creatives kind of do our thing and learn. And, uh, and there were ups and downs for sure. Uh, you and I, but it heads a lot, but, um, like I think, and Donaldson is a part of it too, but you, you and Donaldson created this space.
00:37:28
Speaker
that allowed us to become as good as we thought we were when we weren't at first. You trusted us and look at it. I mean, there's a lot of really talented people in really making great work in powerful positions in this industry because they started this little production company in Bellingham that was just making cool stuff. And yeah, so much talent. I'm pretty proud to be a part of it and feel incredibly lucky to be back at the company
00:37:57
Speaker
kind of carrying forward the brand. That's great. Thank you so much. I'm blushing. That's why I don't show any video on these things. But yeah, man, thanks a lot. And let's get you and Micah both back on here and talk some more. And let's do that deal making podcast. I think that would be a really fun one where we just break down
00:38:21
Speaker
You know, just break down the deal. We could do some role playing. We could do some, you know, because I think deal making is really stressful for people. And I know it has been for me over the years. I was always happy to turn it over to somebody else. And and I think that we could all use a primer. And it sounds like you guys are really on a good track with it and making it kind of making it your bitch and making making the deal come, you know, work out for you.
00:38:49
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I learned, I mean, Micah's has his own experience growing up in agencies and stuff, but I learned a lot from you guys too. You and Donaldson being in the room with you guys and watching you work, there is a lot to learn. So, you know, and I think that's the case for everyone. That's, that's been a hand crank. We learned from some really great teachers and, um, it's a one, but it's the hardest part about is getting the work and getting the money you think you need for the project. And, uh, uh, it takes some experience to get there when you're emotional about your own work site. Yeah.
00:39:20
Speaker
You're putting papers on it and you're putting like, that's weird, right? That's why, that's why Mike and I make a great team is he's not emotional like I am. So I can be emotional. Like I'm the emo kid and he's just like the business guy. And so the two of us play really well together. I think it's a great thing about having good partnerships too. And you can, you can kind of play off each other and like even rib each other in the room. Like, uh, we've got, we got one really big client and it was like,
00:39:44
Speaker
It was fun to kind of play this, be in this room and like have Micah jabbing me about being too emotional. And then me talking about him, like he's a business guy all he cares about his money kind of thing. And you know, there's this personality that comes out when the two of us are in a room together, that is fun. And then we, and we talk about real stuff and we're honest. And then you find out what the number is and go to work. And that's what it's about getting to the work. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:40:11
Speaker
All right, man. Well, we will talk to you later. And thanks to all you out there in podcast listening land for listening to Crossing the Access. Thanks for giving pipeline a try at video pipeline.io. And we will see all of you later. Thanks and good night, Caleb. All right, thanks.