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069: Sharing the mental load with your partner
1k Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Mia and Dinah dive into how to share the mental load, drawing on expertise from relationship expert and psychologist Dr Morgan Cutlip.
About Dr Morgan Cutlip
Morgan Cutlip has a PhD in Psychology, is a wife, mom to two kids and life-long lover of all things relationships. Dr Morgan's work centres on creative content development for My Love Thinks.com and delivering educational content for your relationships in a way that is not just professional but also practical. Dr Cutlip has been a featured relationship expert for Teen Vogue, the New York Times, Flo Tracker app and is the upcoming author of two books with Thomas Nelson, How to Love your Kids Without Losing Yourself and The Mother Load.
In this episode we talk about:
- what inequity in the mental load looks like
- the impact this inequity has on other areas of your relationship
- how to explain the mental load without your partner getting defensive
- the difference between ‘within work’ and ‘between work’, and why you need to do both
- thoughts and behaviours that can sabotage an equitable relationship
- minimum acceptable standards and letting go of control
- taking initiative versus making requests for support
- how frequent check-ins with your partner are essential
Please head to the Life Admin Life Hacks Facebook, Insta or Linked In pages to connect with listeners and share your thoughts, questions or suggestions.
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Transcript
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Introduction to Life Admin Life Hacks
00:00:30
Speaker
This is Life Admin Life Hacks, a podcast that gives you techniques, tips, and tools to tackle your life admin more efficiently, to save your time, your money, and to improve your household harmony. I'm Tyra Roberts, an Operations Manager, and when I read about the mental load for the first time, it finally gave words to the heavy weight I'd been carrying. I'm Mia Northrop.
00:00:53
Speaker
a researcher and writer who rolls her eyes every time she hears another media story about women predominantly shouldering the mental load in families. Because this is not news, people. We know this. We as a society, please start focusing on solutions.
Understanding Mental Load with Dr. Morgan Cutlip
00:01:09
Speaker
So in this episode, we interview psychologist and mental load expert Dr. Morgan Cutlip.
00:01:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Life Admin Life Hacks. Diana and I are very excited about this episode because we're diving into a topic that triggered our need to optimize Life Admin and is inspired by some of the most common questions we've been asked by our listeners, like, how can I make my partner do their fair share? How do I get my co-parent to take more responsibility? Why doesn't my partner see how stressful and unfair it is for me to do everything? Do these sound familiar?
00:01:44
Speaker
Research you've run in the past revealed that life admin causes friction in the majority of different sex households. And the Australian Institute of Family Studies just reported that mothers carry the mental load when it comes to parenting, which causes significant stress, and women carry the mental load when it comes to life admin too. And this contributes to stress and anxiety as well. One of the payoffs of getting your life admin organized is household harmony.
00:02:09
Speaker
And
The Impact of Sharing Life Admin Tasks
00:02:10
Speaker
in our book, Life Admin Hacks, each chapter has a rating of how much improvements in a certain area, like meal planning or organizing your social life or decluttering, will contribute to household harmony. And part of getting your life admin sorted is not just working out better processes and tools to tackle the tasks, but to also acknowledge who carries the mental load in a household and to share both that load and those tasks
00:02:36
Speaker
more equitably. So we've been on a quest for some time to find an expert to talk specifically about this topic and we finally found her so we were really excited to interview Dr Morgan Cutlip and in this show she talks about the far-reaching impact the mental load can have on your relationship, the work, the within work you need to do and the between work you need to tackle to improve how you approach life admin in your household
00:03:02
Speaker
and how a weekly check in with your partner can be a game changer in sharing the load. So if
Dr. Cutlip's Expertise and Recognition
00:03:08
Speaker
you want some advice on how you and your partner can optimise life admin in a fairer way, this ep is for you.
00:03:18
Speaker
is a wife, mum, to two kids, and lifelong lover of all things relationships. Dr. Morgan's work centers on creative content development for MyLoveThinks.com, and delivering educational content for your relationships in a way that is not just professional, but is also practical. Dr. Cutlip has been a featured relationship expert for Teen Vogue, The New York Times, Flow Tracker App, and is the upcoming author to two books with Thomas Nelson, How to Love Your Kids Without Losing Yourself, and The Motherload.
00:03:48
Speaker
Morgan, thanks so much for coming on the show today. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here. I've been following you on Instagram for some time and I love the work you put out there. So I wondered if maybe we could start our conversation today with you giving us what your definition is of the mental load.
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny. I was talking about this with my husband earlier and he's like, anytime I bring it up to other people, they're like, what is the mental load?
Defining and Articulating Mental Load
00:04:13
Speaker
And I think that one of the best ways for women to understand it is really in just the feeling of it. We experience the mental load in that overwhelm, that sort of dizziness and spinning that we experience a lot of the time.
00:04:29
Speaker
When we're managing all the things but to give a more official definition I'd say it's it's the running list of to-dos that we carry with us in our minds things like managing the household managing social calendars research the emotional worry and work that we put towards our children and our relationships the
00:04:48
Speaker
managers of our relationships and the mental load has some really key features that make it a bit tricky and one of them is that it's often invisible. This makes it really challenging because it's hard to articulate what it is to our partners and when they don't understand it, it's hard for them to help us.
Imbalance of Mental Load in Relationships
00:05:08
Speaker
So I think another piece that resonates strongly for people is the mental load takes up cognitive effort.
00:05:15
Speaker
takes up space in our minds and that crowds out other things, which I'm sure we'll talk about. Definitely. And I think it was the mental load or my mental load that made me start this whole caper. So I think that all really resonates with me. It's kind of our life admin life hacks was born was, you know, the feeling of that mental load just being too much. So yeah.
00:05:37
Speaker
It does really change significantly after kids. So it's usually there a lot in our relationships and research says, and I know you have to kind of draw these conclusions, but typically it's women who carry the majority of the mental load. It usually exists before kids, but it really intensifies after kids. So that's usually when people start kind of digging into some of this information.
00:05:59
Speaker
So you gave a few examples earlier of what it feels like to have it. What does this inequity in the mental load look like? Yeah. I mean, you mean within the relationship? I think, what does it look like? It's hard to even know where to begin with that question because the mental load, it really starts to erode
00:06:17
Speaker
all aspects of closeness within the relationship when one partner is feeling like there is an inequity, like there really is this unfairness within the relationship. And so I like to talk about something that I call piling on precedents, which is, I believe, a really major way. There are several reasons why I believe the inequity exists, and this is one of them. I also think we tend to repeat the roles that we were raised with.
Societal Norms and Mental Load
00:06:43
Speaker
and that we saw and then also I think there's this societal sort of socialization piece that affects why things are a bit more inequitable but piling on precedents is a big one because you can actually do something about this and I define it as early on in our relationships we tend to do things for our partners or our kids or you know whoever in our relationships out of love and care we just
00:07:05
Speaker
We just want to take care of the people we love. We're good at it. Women are really good at that. And that's something to be, I think, proud of. However, when we do these things for our partners, early on especially, I think it happens right away in relationships, they sort of just take it off their plate. If we've taken care of it, it's out of sight, out of mind for them. And usually we don't discuss it.
00:07:31
Speaker
I think of like early on in my marriage with my husband, I just like would make dinner and I would also do the dishes. And of course I did the planning and the shopping and all the things. And I remember him kind of being like, let me take over. I'll do the dishes. And I remember, no, no, no, no.
00:07:48
Speaker
I got this. I got you. You relax. It's just out of love and care. Over the years, I started making more noise in the kitchen when I was doing the dishes because I'm like, why the heck am I doing all of these things? Because at this point, we had kids. Things got busier. I felt like I was almost banging the dishes like a cowbell. Like, come on back. Take this.
00:08:10
Speaker
But I had sort of fired him from the job. I had taken it on and he had let it go, even after putting up a fight for a bit. And I think we do this with lots of things. And it's not our fault. It's from a good hearted place. But before we know it, we have taken the responsibility on for so many things. And our partners aren't even thinking about it anymore.
00:08:32
Speaker
Actually, as you were saying that, I was starting to think about love languages. And you know how one of the languages, love languages acts as service, which is where you like to do things for other people. And depending on, you know, there's a whole bunch of different love languages, some of them are words of affirmation.
00:08:48
Speaker
or quality time and physical touch. But it's interesting that for some people, you know, even if that is your lung language and you like to do acts of service, there's a point, there's a point where it gets too much. Like it's overwhelming if you are doing everything.
00:09:02
Speaker
I think, yeah, you're bringing up such a great point and I think that there are two things. So if you're not getting reciprocation, so you're taking it on and it's not being reciprocated, your partner's not jumping in, taking initiation for things or even asking for like, give me some direction here, I'm here to help. If it's not reciprocated or it's not appreciated, I think that's where it really becomes a massive problem because then what starts to build these feelings of this isn't fair,
00:09:31
Speaker
This is inequitable. And then we trickle into things like resentment and other stuff that affects the relationship. Yes. Because if your love language is acts of service, it's how you show love, but it's also how you experience love.
Mental Load and Relationship Dynamics
00:09:44
Speaker
So you do want to see it reciprocated. And that is definitely me. So I guess then I guess that leads to the question of, you know, what impact does this inequity then have? And you've mentioned it already, that feelings of resentment, but what else does it impact in other areas of your relationship?
00:10:01
Speaker
I mean, I think I would argue it impacts almost everything. It impacts the way that we view our partners, our attitude towards them. I think this is a big one that maybe needs to be talked about more is our attitude toward our partner starts to shift, where we start to kind of tell ourselves these stories about our partners.
00:10:16
Speaker
They're selfish. They don't care about me. They don't, you know, can't believe they don't even chip in like, oh, am I their maid or I'm their mom is another one you hear. So it affects, it affects our attitude toward our partner, which then that sours all sorts of things. And the resentment, it affects your feelings of dependence on your partner.
00:10:37
Speaker
this question of, are you there for me? Do you show up for me like I need you to? It starts to shake that. And I think that's also a big, these are big deal things to be affected. And I think one of the big ones is it affects your sex life in some pretty major ways because how do you get in a sexy state of mind when you're running through all the to-do lists and you have a bad attitude towards your partner? And so I think it's important to put this piece, this mental load piece in the
00:11:06
Speaker
context of a bigger picture of the relationship. So interesting. We've talked a lot about sort of, I guess, how this impacts romantic relationships and possibly co-parenting relationships. Does this apply to other relationships too? Like if you're roommates with people, or does it really just impact?
00:11:23
Speaker
these quasi-personal relationships? Yeah, I think that's such a good question. So I would say somewhat. I mean, I'm not sure. I don't have like a study to pull from on this one. So this is just my opinion. This is my clarification. It's just my opinion. But I think that we carry different expectations when we go into different relationships.
Discussing Mental Load with Partners
00:11:42
Speaker
And so when we're in a romantic partnership, we're expecting
00:11:47
Speaker
to be loved in the ways that we need and to be cared for and we're expecting a partnership and so that looks different than like being with a roommate. However, I think those two pieces about reciprocation and appreciation still apply and things like this, like even familial relationships. If you have a sibling or something where you're giving and you're not getting back or you're not even getting appreciated,
00:12:10
Speaker
that's going to affect the relationship in some big way. So yeah, I think there are parts of this that really do still apply. Yeah. So you mentioned earlier that, you know, when your husband's talking to people about the mental load, they're like, what is it? And it's often understood better by one partner than the other.
00:12:28
Speaker
And this means that the person who has learned about the mental load ends up trying to explain it to their partner. How do you do this without the other person getting defensive? Honestly, I think this is the hardest part of the mental load. I think it's getting partners to understand it and to get on board. It's one of the trickiest questions.
00:12:47
Speaker
One piece is i'm a big believer that in our relationships we should have regular regular relationship meetings or talks most people don't do this but if you do this you it's much easier to introduce this conversation because if you're regularly checking in on stuff you keep keeping tabs.
00:13:05
Speaker
and you're normalizing the idea that you talk about relationships even when they're going well. We have this sort of stigma that if we got to talk about a relationship, it means we're in trouble. And so these ongoing talks can be really helpful in having these conversations. But if you don't do those, which I think a lot of people don't do those, there's a couple things that are important. I think one is to try to position it so you share a common enemy, and the common enemy is the mental load.
00:13:35
Speaker
often times when we bring it up to our partners they sort of enter into this defensiveness is what we get but i think on the inside is this sort of shame spiral of
00:13:46
Speaker
okay, so you're telling me I'm not doing enough. Like what do I take away from this conversation? Or I guess you're saying I just kind of stink at being a partner. So they go into that mode and then the whole meaning of that conversation is sort of lost and what you need to get out of it gets lost. And so if you can position it and phrase it as something I need to talk to you about that is just our sort of shared responsibility that I've been kind of doing a bit more of,
00:14:12
Speaker
It's not that you do nothing. So you're sort of like hedging the defensiveness. It's not that you do nothing, but we need to kind of reevaluate how things are distributed. I do want to say a couple of things though. Sometimes we need to think about what we want out of the conversation before we go into it. Are we wanting just to divide responsibilities differently or are we wanting more just like validation and appreciation for what we do, more understanding?
00:14:37
Speaker
I think that can help too to be really clear when you have this conversation because I think oftentimes we're so overwhelmed by it that we kind of just dump it out and they're like, I don't know what to do. I guess I'm terrible at to you and I'm not helping around the house enough. Like what's going on here? So being clear about, do you just need to be seen?
Making Mental Load Tangible
00:14:56
Speaker
Do you need more appreciation? Do you need?
00:14:57
Speaker
support do you need actual like logistical help something that's tricky with about the mental load is that like i said it's invisible so a lot of times our partners just see the end result there's a whole process that goes into the end result of things which is the big part of the mental load that they don't see and so i think that it could actually be helpful
00:15:19
Speaker
to say, I'm just going to explain it to you using items in our home. I'm going to pick up this can of beans in the pantry. First of all, probably your partner has never touched an item in the pantry. I know I said to my husband today, have you touched anything but the peanut butter in there? I think it's just the peanut butter. But you pick up this can of beans. This can of beans just looks like it just showed up in the pantry. Big deal. What, you want me to buy beans? How about beans? That's easy.
00:15:48
Speaker
Okay, let's talk about what this can symbolizes. In this can is me budgeting for our groceries. In this can is me meal planning. Do you know how much time meal planning takes up and mental capacity within this can of beans is me packing up two screaming toddlers and buckling them into their car seats and sweating profusely as I'm doing it and going to the store and shopping and buying it and coming home and unpacking it and then realizing I never use that stinking can of beans and now I'm organizing it.
00:16:18
Speaker
Right? So it's like each item in the home, I think tells a story of the mental load. And it can be a really like fun way to just talk about that with your partner. I can still see something. I didn't think that his face got here.
00:16:36
Speaker
And I think, you know, so I think it's a really good example, Morgan, because I think it was one of the, when I sort of got to breaking point, and I guess historically, I used to just rant and rave and then have a fish, you know, and then wake up the next day and, you know, continue doing it, which is clearly not a very, you know, sensible way of approaching it. You've got a lot of company in that though. A lot of women do that.
00:16:58
Speaker
So what I did actually a little while ago was particularly when it came to the meal planning, which was something that really just, it really got to me. I just said to my husband very calmly one night, I don't want to do it anymore. And he just sort of said to me, what do you mean? And I said,
00:17:13
Speaker
I'm not doing meal planning or grocery shopping anymore. You're going to have a turn. I've done it for 20 years. Now it's your turn to take it on. And he just looked at me like rabbit in the headlights, but the reality is he's a smart man. He knows how to read recipe books. He knows how to go to a grocery store. I gave him some hints and I said, enjoy. And he did it for about, I don't know, about nine months, I think. And I have taken it back now, but he now has complete appreciation for how much time and effort and what happens.
00:17:43
Speaker
what chaos happens when it doesn't happen because it didn't happen quite a few times um because you know he forgot so i do think that there is also that idea of like just saying i'm not going to do that anymore and i and i didn't rescue him and i didn't i let him fail i just let it happen so i think that's also it's that's another kind of way of giving it a go um which i highly recommend
Perception and Communication Challenges
00:18:07
Speaker
I love your story and you're highlighting so many big things and you just said it at the end. I let it go. I let him fail. And I think that's part of it is that if you can buy into the idea of how we pile on these precedents, how we just take them on with no conversation, when we get to a place of wanting to offload, we have to realize that we may have been doing meal planning for 20 years.
00:18:33
Speaker
and so they haven't had that experience and so it takes time to figure it out and to learn and if we're sort of like micromanaging or breathing down their neck or we're getting all uptight of rescuing them we're perpetuating the issue and so you did something that is not always easy to do but that's a key part of this is like if you're turning it over like give them the space to figure it out and to fail yeah
00:18:57
Speaker
I love what you say there about the fact that this is invisible and you often need to sort of give them the story of how the beans got there. And when we were writing our book and thinking about, you know, whether it's like a birthday party, even like, you know, here's the gift that your kid is taking to this party. This gift just didn't materialise. You know, there's a whole story behind that. And when we were writing the book and stepping out, you know, these are actually all the tasks.
00:19:22
Speaker
We've got lots of feedback about, I'd never really thought about it that way. And then once you break it down, like no wonder I'm stressed out. Because there's so many decisions, there's so many things to put in the diary, and so many things to remember. And so we really wanted to break it down to the smallest parts.
00:19:38
Speaker
and talk about how each of those steps could be shared so that you aren't doing it all, or at least how to make all these steps more efficient. So I love that idea of, yeah. I love that you did that in your book. I know, I want your book. I think for me personally, when I learned about the terminology, I know it's called different things, mental load, admissible labor, all these different things, but
00:19:59
Speaker
When I learned that there was a name for it, like just that label alone gave me so much more peace of mind because you feel crazy a little bit sometimes. And then your partner's like, you'll get those unhelpful responses. Why are you so stressed? Just relax one thing at a time. And you're like, no, I have six.
00:20:20
Speaker
thousand things going on in my head at the time. And so I'm sure for so many women that you kind of ticked out all the steps that that alone had to feel so validating. No, we're going to talk about standards a little in a little bit.
Behaviors Hindering Mental Load Sharing
00:20:36
Speaker
Oh, he letting it go.
00:20:40
Speaker
Don't worry about it. So Morgan, to tackle this issue, you describe within work and between work. So can you talk us through what you mean by that?
00:20:51
Speaker
So I think of, I mean, a lot of things in relationships can be divided up in this way too, but I think specifically with the mental load, when you're really in a position of like, we're ready to tackle this, we're going to work on it. There are two pieces to it. You got to think about what am I bringing to the relationship in terms of how I handle the mental load? You touched on it with sort of like.
00:21:10
Speaker
giving them some space and things like that. How am I showing up? And what can I change as an individual? If my partner's not going to do anything differently, what can I change in terms of the mental load? So it's like this self-examination and self, I guess, empowerment to make changes on your own. And then the other is the dynamic. So what in our relationship has to shift? What do we need to do to make meaningful change around the mental load?
00:21:35
Speaker
I love that distinction of the within work, you know, what do I need to change within me? And that between work, what can we work on between each other? It's a great way to think about, as you said, all sorts of relationship issues. What are some of the, you know, when you think about that within work, what are some of the thoughts and behaviors that can actually sabotage equitable relationship?
00:21:57
Speaker
I know you're speaking my language. So I have two main categories. One is the stories that sabotage, and these are the stories that we tell ourselves or even our partner might be telling themselves. So I think that these can go both ways. So it might be something like, because I'm a stay-at-home mom, I shouldn't have to ask for help, or I shouldn't need to ask for help, which comes up a lot, which kind of sounds silly when you say it out loud, but a lot of women operate with them.
00:22:22
Speaker
Yeah, they hold themselves to that standard. It's an impossible standard. Nobody does anything without help. But this story, this standard will get in the way of asking for the help that you need and asserting your needs. I think partners might tell the story of, I never do it right, so why even try? And this prohibits their involvement and it shuts them down and it gets in the way of a fairer distribution.
00:22:47
Speaker
The other category I call behaviors that backfire. So I have five of those, and I don't think that they require much explanation, but one is impatience. This is like, everybody talks about being, Hey, can you take this down to the garage? I'll just do it myself. It's that one. We're just right. Self-sabotaging. Like give it a minute. Everyone listening to the episode is going to get a sore neck from nodding.
00:23:11
Speaker
Another one is personalization. I talk about this one a lot. I think it's really big in our relationships, but I tell a story about how my husband leaves his black socks all over the house and how
00:23:22
Speaker
I get to choose how I make meaning of that. So is that him disrespecting me? Is that him thinking I'm his mom? Is that him not caring that I like a clean house? Or is that him chilling out relaxing and plopping his socks in the floor and not paying attention, which is characteristic? So how do we personalize the things that our partners do or don't do? And how does that kind of get in the way of souring our attitude and maybe how we bring up the mental load?
00:23:50
Speaker
Another is micromanaging. Pack the lunches. Don't do it like that. Do it like this. You know, that kind of thing. Criticizing. Can you get the kids dressed? What the heck are they wearing? And keeping score. So, yeah, you did that one thing, but you know all that I do? All these things sour the tone in the relationship. Don't know. I'm sure. Like, oh, it feels a bit close to home. I'm sorry. Everybody does them from time to time.
00:24:18
Speaker
but they're just important to raise our awareness to. I think you also mentioned collecting data about your marriage and family. I guess me or I are all about evidence-based and data, so I'd love to know a little bit more about what that means and why it might be helpful. Yeah. I can't even take credit for this. It came out of a podcast episode we did with a couple who were so
00:24:41
Speaker
awesome at how they navigated the mental load. And the husband was talking about, he kept saying like a collect data, a collect data. He was really cute actually how he would talk about it. But the concept behind this is really, you know, women tend to be the managers of the home. And what gets really frustrating is when their partners act like they are their employees.
00:25:04
Speaker
And
Balancing Work and Household Responsibilities
00:25:05
Speaker
collecting data just means that you are shared like you're both in management roles and you are operating in your home paying attention to what gets done, collecting data about, oh, I see my wife's doing this right now or my partner's doing this. What is all that that's involved? It's paying attention so you can start to learn and eventually take initiative.
00:25:26
Speaker
and helping how your family operates. And he told a story about driving his kids to school and like listening to them and taking in data. And then that helped him anticipate their needs later down the road. And so I think that that's a real big frustration for women is they feel like their partners aren't engaging in that process and that they are the ones who are the keepers of all the tasks until they pass them off to their partner. So. Yeah, that's really interesting. You know where I started to think about the
00:25:56
Speaker
This could take us down a huge rabbit hole. I started to think about people's relationships with their work and their sort of paid work outside of the home and how much effort and energy and attention they give to their paid work. And that feeling that when you come home, you just want to switch off and kind of let go of any reins. And I think traditionally, you know, if women have been working inside the home and not had that paid work,
00:26:23
Speaker
their partner might have been the person that comes home and just
00:26:26
Speaker
wants to switch off and that means the other person has to pick up the slack around the home. And obviously now with a lot more women working outside of the home and having their paid work, they don't have the luxury of coming home and just switching off and not paying attention. And I've had conversations with people about having the energy to actually pay attention of what's going on at home and not giving so much of yourself in your paid job. So that there's actually something left over to contribute to the household.
00:26:56
Speaker
Is this resonating with you guys at all? Definitely. And I do think it's a, you know, it's a big struggle. And I think particularly, I think the really interesting one is when people earn different amounts of money and it creates this kind of sense that, oh, their time at work is way more valuable than my time at work. And so therefore I should be able to come home, even if you work the same amount of hours and keep a handle on it. But the problem is.
00:27:21
Speaker
that, you know, it happens irrespective of that. And often, as you talked about before, Morgan, it doesn't happen with an explicit conversation. And I think that, you know, I think if you've had an explicit conversation around, I'm going to take this job, it's going to earn more money. And therefore, these are the compromises we're going to have to make in our relationship. Are you up for that? Okay, well, then that's okay. But we often don't have that conversation. It's just an implicit assumption.
Adjusting Attitudes for Better Sharing
00:27:47
Speaker
And I think that that's where that resentment can build up, I think.
00:27:50
Speaker
I think you bring up such a great point about having these explicit conversations around the stuff. And I think that a lot of times, and I'm drawing conclusions, but with women, one of the stories that get in the way of initiating these conversations after the fact, because if you haven't had it, you have to have it later.
00:28:09
Speaker
is that we do often tie sort of like value to money, to financial earnings. And I think that really is like hard for us to sort through and then get the courage to actually initiate this conversation. But the reality is, and this isn't my concept, this is, Yovaradsky's book is excellent on this topic too, but she talks about if it's important to the functioning of the family, then it's everybody's responsibility to do this. And so you're right, you have to have an explicit conversation, but also you might have to challenge
00:28:39
Speaker
some of these stories you're telling yourself about what value is. Is value-only money? There's a lot of value in what we're doing in terms of raising children and providing food and shopping and that can of beans that means something. That's a common one. I guess we touched on earlier about the fact that when you are sharing tasks
00:29:03
Speaker
and someone else is taking on something new and they need to have time to get up to speed. We talk in our book about minimum acceptable standards of executing on a task and letting go of controlling the way something is done or letting go of those high expectations about quality. How can you reset your attitudes when it comes to this?
00:29:25
Speaker
Because it's really hard to just hang laundry with stuff. You know, you're like, don't hang it like that. I'm just going to have to iron it. You know the little conversations that go on, they watch some of the loaded dishwasher and you're like, I'm going to have to rewash it.
00:29:42
Speaker
That's me. That's so me. I think this is a hard one. You guys are hitting good questions because I think the explaining the mental load to a partner is challenging and I think this is a challenging one. When you get pushed back, I think from moms, it's, but they don't do it right. I'm sorry.
00:30:00
Speaker
maybe you have really high standards and sometimes we do and sometimes we don't. You have to evaluate yourself a little bit. So it's a little bit of that within piece. So are my standards really unrealistic or is it like the dishes actually don't get clean when you load the dishwasher that way? And so you have choices. I think with a lot of stuff and relationships we have choices. So one of the choices is that you
00:30:23
Speaker
We're assuming that the standard is realistic, that you come back to your partner and you're like, okay, I really like what you're doing here, but we got to tweak it a bit because really, it's not closing the loop. I still got to come back and finish the job or redo the job. Can I show you what I...
00:30:40
Speaker
what we need to do and hopefully have a partner who's willing to hear you out i mean another choice is if it's really important to you and it just doesn't seem important to your partner you can choose to do it yourself and then have a good attitude like this is a standard like my husband is not good at wiping the counters i don't know why it's not complicated but like
00:30:59
Speaker
I'm really particular about my counters. So I'm just going to do it. And I'm not going to resent him for it. If I'm choosing, if I am choosing it, and I'm going to take responsibility for that, I'm going to do it with a good attitude. And I think that's sometimes hard for people to hear. That's an important piece of it. So you can revisit it. You can choose to do it with a good attitude. You can compromise if it's something that you can compromise on, you know, well, it's not done how I want, but it's OK. I'm OK with done is better than
Fostering Responsibility by Letting Go
00:31:28
Speaker
perfect.
00:31:28
Speaker
I think it can be helpful to have some humility in this process of talking about the mental load, which is hard because it can be a really infuriating process. I recognize that. I'm not deft like I get it. I've had this conversation in my own relationship. I cannot tell you one single time I've ever been talked to by my partner about how I do stuff.
00:31:49
Speaker
Like, I don't get any micromanagement or criticism, and I know some women do, okay, but big scope here. Oftentimes, we're a bit more, we got our ways we like things done, and so that's nice to not be micromanaged. It's nice to not be criticized when we're trying to help, and so can we offer a little bit of that also to our partners?
00:32:08
Speaker
Oh, very good advice. And you know, it's definitely something that I had to work on a lot. So, you know, I had, I held everything, all of the complicated logistics in my head for our household. And as I slowly created these systems for my husband to share the load, I've had to let go of some of those standards, which were probably just, well, they were, they were unrealistically and unnecessarily high.
00:32:33
Speaker
And I have to catch myself still when I go to, you know, it's not how I would do it, but you know, it's done. And so for me, I is definitely playing the long game in terms of thinking about my own, you know, giving myself more time to do the things I want and letting him do things badly. Yeah. Oh, can I say one more thing? Sorry, I could just keep a ramble forever on this topic. So
00:32:58
Speaker
you brought up, let go a little bit of how he does it. I think something that is worth just considering is also like when they do it. I remember so many times in my own relationship, seeing my husband and he comes in from work and he jumps right in. So I give him a lot of credit, but he would sometimes like be a Saturday and the kitchen is a mess and the dishes are full and he would like lay on the couch and take a power nap.
00:33:24
Speaker
I mean, he's allowed, like we're allowed to rest. I don't know why we are of this like, I'll be really ticked off because did you see the dishes? I just made everybody lunch. This is meal two out of three today, folks. Like, why am I having to clean the kitchen? I almost took his lack of doing it at that moment as meaning that he didn't plan on doing it and that he didn't care that all of the things that I already did. So I personalized it.
00:33:52
Speaker
And something clicked for me one day and I was like, well, I could choose to sit on the couch too. And I did. And I started doing that more. And there were dishes in the sink a little bit longer than I like, but he would get up and do them eventually. And I think that just having that permission to ease up a little bit on our standards is sometimes what we need. We need to hear. You can choose to not do it too.
00:34:14
Speaker
sometimes and it's going to get done. It's going to eventually get done. Yes, I love this focus on having that self-awareness and realize you have all these little choices you could be making.
Managing Mental Load with Support
00:34:24
Speaker
Yeah. And I would also say that that applies to your children too. I think that it's very easy to rescue your children because you want it done straight away. And so giving them the space to figure it out, do the task is hard, particularly for people like me who are super conscientious and organized. And I still do often take over, but I do also give them all the chance occasionally.
00:34:48
Speaker
to work it out and we're all the better off for it. So highly encouraged. It just takes them so long sometimes. As a kid, just so much patience.
00:35:00
Speaker
Another thing, Morgan, you talked about in your podcast was about balance, taking steps of informed initiative with making requests for support. I think we've probably already touched on it a little bit, but maybe you could expand on that a bit further. Yeah, this came out of pushback around asking for help. You get that a lot. I shouldn't have to ask. I shouldn't have to ask. In the podcast, we were talking about this balance between
00:35:24
Speaker
The partner's responsibility is to take some initiative sometimes, to not treat your partner like they are the manager and you're the employee, but to collect that data, like to pay attention and to take some initiative. But then also, it's your responsibility too. If things are piling up and it's unmanageable and you are losing your mind and you're building resentment and you're bottling it up but you're about to blow up,
00:35:48
Speaker
you should ask for help so it's this balance between yes we want our partners to take more initiative and that is so important to the functioning of a home and to the mental health of the partners who are carrying the majority of the mental load but also sometimes we do need to ask and let our needs be known and I mean you were talking about like
00:36:08
Speaker
going through your systems with your partner and explaining it. And there is a piece that we need to really hone in on there, which is sometimes our partners need to be told and taught what to do when we've been doing it all these years for them. And this is not a set and forget conversation, is it? How often do we need to be checking in with each other about our mental loads? I think
00:36:30
Speaker
often to very often. So I have these principles about the mental load, but one of them is that it's always changing. Like life has this way of regularly imbalancing how we distribute our responsibilities in the relationship. And you just, even good things like around the holidays, think about, ugh, there's like so much more on the mental load around the holidays or birthdays.
00:36:55
Speaker
I think that it's important that we recognize that you're not going to find the perfect distribution and then just going to cruise for the rest of your relationship. It's an ongoing conversation because it's constantly changing. As your children grow, they have different needs. You have different things as your work life changes, all this stuff. Have a real sit down once a month and if you can do it, I would say do check-ins every single week. What's on your plate? What's going on? How can I get in your world this week?
00:37:21
Speaker
And I think even just having, it's a casual conversation even of, what's on your plate this week? Let me understand what's going on. It's an opportunity then for a partner to say, oh, I can do that for you. Let me take care of that. And really getting in each other's worlds. And so I think weekly is good.
00:37:37
Speaker
When COVID first hit, my husband used to be gone every week for travel. Of course, then everything lands on me. He went from being gone a lot to being home all the time and also working at home, which was weird for he didn't like doing that very much.
00:37:53
Speaker
He's good now, but it's took a transition time where we did check-ins every morning because I might be doing a podcast or something like this and he's got a Zoom meeting. And so we had a check-in every day. What's on your plate? What's going on? How do we juggle this? How do we navigate this? And I think it helped us function really well during COVID. And so talk about it a lot if you can. And it doesn't have to be a big deal.
00:38:16
Speaker
Yeah, in our book we actually talk about the idea of having a monthly momentum meeting, which I think is with a bit more structure around it. And I do really like that idea. And I also noticed that Amanda Imba in her new book, she recommends this idea of having like a list of, you know, this is actually I think in a work context, but a list of items to discuss.
00:38:36
Speaker
And it's actually something I've implemented is that I have a list of things that my husband and I need to discuss and we both add to
Adapting to Family Dynamics and Responsibilities
00:38:44
Speaker
that list. And that really also helps because often you might feel frustrated in the moment and you're likely to sort of have the conversation in a not a very productive way. Whereas if you can catch yourself and add it to the list and have it on a, we have it on a Sunday night. We usually have a glass of nice wine.
00:39:04
Speaker
And we sit down and we talk about things in a much more considered manner. I highly recommend both of those things to make a huge difference. Yeah, I have a list that I run through with my
00:39:16
Speaker
kid's dad, the same thing. Like we have a phone conversation and then we have like a note on my phone that I share with him and we put things because, you know, as you said, things move fast, especially over the last two years. It's just a changing, changing situation every day. And just having that to work from and both being able to contribute to it is really helpful.
00:39:36
Speaker
I wanted to say, you know, as you were talking through that, that, you know, the regularity of these check-ins, I think that was one of the biggest shocks to parenthood when I had my daughter, she was a baby, realising that every few months, you know, she changes, she's going through these developmental milestones, which meant she needed different things and her behaviour was going to change and her patterns were going to change.
00:39:58
Speaker
and that I would have to redesign my life around it. And as you have kids and they, you know, they get older, you just realize, oh, you know, the way I used to live and the kind of continuity of things, that is gone forever. Every three months, six months, everything needs to be reassessed because everyone's doing different stuff. And that was such a big shock to the system for me. That's such a good point. I think before kids, it is easier to reach that cruising altitude. You're like,
00:40:26
Speaker
We're in a groove, we're good, but with kids, you cannot do that, right? My sister has a young baby and I'm just being reminded or re-traumatized a little bit of life. She's like, oh, she's in sleep regression, or oh, she's getting a tooth, or you're like, ah, I remembered not being able to predict my life.
00:40:48
Speaker
And then through primary school and high school as their lives change and they become more independent, you're just constantly renegotiating who needs to do what when in the household. Yeah, and so much mental load associated with those family logistics.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah, I really think you're right. Weekly check-ins, potentially daily check-ins, are required. Yes. If you've got a complicated life and, you know, there is a choice to being busy and letting your kids do all of these things and having complicated work. But if you are, if you've chosen that, you kind of therefore need to, you know, to put systems in place to accommodate that. Otherwise, you will all fall over, I guess is the answer.
00:41:27
Speaker
Exactly. It's like brings us full circle. I mean, or else it starts to erode, you know, your closeness, your connection, your sex life, all of these things. And so staying on top of that's really important. I love that you put that in your book. It's part of our couples course for years. That's like, we have a structure for
Conclusion and Resources
00:41:44
Speaker
these meetings. And I think it's a popular concept because it, because it works and it's genuinely helpful and helps prevent these sort of little issues from becoming big problems in the relationship.
00:41:55
Speaker
Oh, I think that's a wonderful point to end our conversation. Morgan, it has been such a pleasure having you on the show today to share your experience and ideas. So where can our listeners find you if they want to hear more? That's been so fun. Thank you for having me. You can find me on Instagram. That's where I spend probably most of my time with social media, at least at My Love, Thanks. And then we also have a blog, MyLoveThanks.com, which has tons of free content.
00:42:23
Speaker
our online courses and then we'll soon be launching a membership which will be a really affordable price point so it's accessible to everybody. Thanks for listening. Show notes for this episode are available at lifeadminlifehacks.com and if you're a fan, please subscribe and share the love and tell a friend or review us in your podcasting app. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.