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Jason Fried - Tech Founder Gone Collector
789 Plays2 years ago
Co-Founder of Basecamp and Hey, Jason Fried is pretty known in the watch community as a great collector. While fairly private, sometimes you just can’t help but talk about the stuff you love. That’s Jason Fried for ya. Jason has authored and co-authored several books, some if not most of which have been New York Times Best Sellers. But how would a Co-Founder of a tech company as big as Basecamp have the time to even collect anything? Well, Jason has actually been preaching a really relaxed work-life balance for a long time and that can be learned about in his books. But what’s most intriguing is his love for watches. And that’s not all Jason collects... Which gives us the feeling that he was definitely born with the Collectors Gene, but we will let him tell us. Alright, here you go, Jason Fried for Collectors Gene Radio.
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Transcript
First Mechanical Watch Purchase
00:00:00
Speaker
That was the first mechanical watch I bought. It was 5,000 bucks, and I thought I was completely insane. Like, what am I doing? What? Are you kidding me? You know? And that kind of got me hooked. What's going on,
Introduction to Collector's Gene Radio
00:00:11
Speaker
everybody? And welcome to Collector's Gene Radio. I'm your host, Cameron Steiner, and I'm joined by my co-host and brother, Ryan. This is all about diving into the nuances of collecting and ultimately finding out whether or not our guests have what we like to call the collector's gene.
00:00:29
Speaker
That's right. And as always, please subscribe and leave a review for us. It truly helps. We hope you enjoy the pod. Let's go.
00:00:43
Speaker
Co-founder of
Meet Jason Fried
00:00:44
Speaker
Basecamp and Hey, Jason Fried is pretty known in the watch community as a great collector. And while fairly private, sometimes you just can't help but talk about the stuff that you love. That's Jason Fried for you. Jason has authored and co-authored several books, some if not most, which have been New York Times best sellers. But how would a co-founder of a tech company as big as Basecamp have the time to even collect anything?
00:01:11
Speaker
Well,
Work-Life Balance Advocacy
00:01:12
Speaker
Jason has actually been preaching a pretty relaxed work-life balance for a long time and that can be learned about in his books. But what's most intriguing about Jason is his love for watches.
00:01:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you would think someone who doesn't want a lot of clutter or distractions in their life would stick to an Apple watch, but nope. Jason has a love for watches so much that he has gone off the deep end in the best way. Sometimes he just can't help it if you care that much about something. But that's not all Jason collects, which gives us the feeling that he definitely was born with the collector's gene. But we'll let him be the deciding factor on that.
00:01:52
Speaker
But hey, you know, let's get into this. See what I did there? This is Jason Freed for Collectors Gene Radio. So what's up, Jason? Welcome to the Collectors Gene Radio, man. Good to be here. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, stoked to have you. Thanks for taking the time during what is a crazy moment everybody's living in here.
00:02:16
Speaker
It is, which is actually kind of fun because there's a lot more time for things like this, which is cool. It's kind of a nice, like collecting is a nice diversion from sort of the horror of the real world at the moment. Yeah, definitely. So true. Well, I
Launching Hey during the Pandemic
00:02:33
Speaker
mean, most people know you for being a founder of Basecamp and 37signals, but I know and Cam knows you just launched Hey, and we want to first off congratulate you on that. Thank you.
00:02:44
Speaker
Yeah, of course. And I was hoping you could tell us a little bit about that and honestly what the launch was like during this insane time. Yeah, well, we launched. So we launched, hey, back in June, but originally we're going to launch it in March. And we said, no, not a good time. Everyone's, you know, at that time the world was really locking down and no one knew what was going on and what was happening. So we pushed it off two months or so and launched in June. And it's been, it's been wonderfully, it's been a wonderful time.
00:03:14
Speaker
got about 30, some odd thousand paying customers already in a few months, which is wonderful, especially given the fact that hay is a pay email service and most people are used to free email. So to get 30,000 plus people to pay for email.
00:03:27
Speaker
couldn't be more exciting for us and we're just getting started. We're about to launch the work version, Hey for Work in January. So it'll be like a multi-user tool for companies to get all their employees on Hey. And I'm excited for 2021. Got a lot of cool, fun stuff cooking and looking forward to getting it out there.
00:03:45
Speaker
Absolutely. That's amazing. I guess you guys must be doing something right if you got 30,000 paying customers on a paid email service. That's amazing. Well, I think for us, that's great. Let's say you were Google. Well, that would be a huge failure, right? Only 30,000? We need 400 million to make it work, right?
00:04:07
Speaker
Everything comes down to your own economics. For us, we're a relatively small business and having 30,000 customers paying for hay just a few months in is a wonderful start. We're really, really happy and fortunate and looking forward to delivering for those people and everyone else who's curious.
00:04:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny how March, every time I talk to anyone, someone had something, and I know March is so monumental and it will be like looking back, but I keep talking to people who had significant things going on in March.
00:04:40
Speaker
I think even March 11th, we were even supposed to go on Cameron's bachelor party to like New York City, we were scheduled to go. But it's so funny how that keeps coming up in such a monumental way with people. I'm so stoked that you guys got it though in June. I mean, so many people have pivoted things to the next year. The fact that alone that you guys still did that this year, it's just awesome. We're happy, we're happy. Yeah, thank you.
00:05:04
Speaker
And so you guys have been at Basecamp cranking away at that for since the early 2000s. Is that right? Yeah. 1999 is when we launched the business and then Basecamp, the product that we're known for today launched in 2004. So that's kind of the timeline there. Yeah. So 37signals was before that. And that's kind of where you guys were doing some of the web design and all that sort of stuff, right? That's right. 37signals launched in 1999.
00:05:32
Speaker
And we recall named 37 Singles up until about five, six years ago, and we switched over to being named Basecamp. But it's the same company. We've been around for about 21 years now. And so what most people might not know about you is that you're also a watch collector. Would you say that
Developing an Interest in Watches
00:05:49
Speaker
watch collecting was something that you came into once business started taking off, or was this something that you've been doing for a really long time?
00:05:57
Speaker
I've liked watches for a long time. My dad collected or still maybe does. We haven't really talked about it in a while. But in high school, he would collect, when I was in high school, he would collect watches and buy them, you know, these little more like American, like Elgin and Illinois and Hamilton, these little small watches from the 20s and 30s and stuff. I just kind of like these little objects. I've always liked physical objects like
00:06:26
Speaker
little contraptions, little machines, that kind of stuff. So I've been into it for a long time, but I didn't have any money to do much with it with my interests other than buying some cheap stuff, which was fun in the days. But then I'd say over the last 10 years, I've gotten maybe a bit too serious about it, spending a bit too much money on things these days, but I do really enjoy them.
00:06:48
Speaker
and my taste of change a lot over the years so i'm kind of gone here and gone there and i'm lately i'm a lot more into modern than than vintage a so really be into vintage no more than modern so i'm kinda bouncing all over the place but yeah i've been i feel like really collecting legitimately for you know
00:07:06
Speaker
for about 10 years or so. I think the first watch I bought, maybe it's seven years or 10 years, I'm not sure, I think probably close to, was a watch called the MIH watch, which a lot of people don't know about. Maybe you knew. That's a serious watch. That was the first mechanical watch I bought. It was 5,000 bucks, and I thought I was completely insane. Like, what am I doing? What? Are you kidding me? But that was the first mechanical watch I bought, and that kind of got me hooked.
00:07:30
Speaker
So like you were saying about going from vintage to modern, was there a significant thing that made you take that change or did you get tired of vintage? What was going on there? This has been something I've been slowly moving into over the past few years. I bought, I think it was just a modern Rolex no date sub, you know, a few years ago and
00:07:54
Speaker
I realized pretty quickly that I liked the convenience of it just working all the time, being incredibly accurate. I could bang it around, it didn't matter. I could shower with it or get it wet, it didn't matter. It was just this sense of reliability. I feel like I stumbled into this like,
00:08:12
Speaker
I mean, these things are actually could be reliable, too, and accurate, too, and waterproof, too, because vintage watches aren't any of those things for the most part, right? So I think that kind of got me thinking like, gosh, you know, I like not having to worry about these things, you know, you have something on your wrist. And as values had gone up, it's like, I don't do I want to wear this thing? If I bang into the wall, like I might lose, you know, 10 grand or whatever, you know, like, yeah,
00:08:36
Speaker
And so I started getting more into modern. I bought a couple GMTs, I bought some other stuff, and I just liked the convenience. And then I kind of got a little bit deeper into some other brands, and I just kind of also liked the aesthetic. I still have a number of vintage watches, but I also sold a lot of my vintage stuff and then have gotten more into modern. And some of the brands I like only really have modern, like Lange, Jorn. I mean, they've been around for a little bit, but they're not vintage watches. They're all modern watches.
00:09:06
Speaker
I like a lot of stuff from AP and the stuff I like from AP is mostly modern stuff. So it just kind of happened to be that way. And occasionally I'll buy something vintage, but for now, right now I'm more into the modern stuff. Yeah, Cam, question. Because for you and Jason, because I collect it, I don't collect watches per se. So with me, I collect sports memorabilia and I've never
00:09:30
Speaker
I don't know why I've never sold any of my stuff. And for you guys, when you part ways with an item that was part of your collection, do you guys find that painful at all? Or is it really take like once you've made that decision to part ways with it, it's just kind of like it's not a part of it anymore, because it's on to the next. For me, I tend
Emotional Aspects of Selling a Collection
00:09:50
Speaker
not to look back. There's things that I sort of do kind of regret selling, but
00:09:57
Speaker
you can always get something back again if you need to. And so I haven't really bought anything back. So I think ultimately that's sort of the...
00:10:06
Speaker
the proof that it's okay to sell something. There are some things, though, that I kind of maybe do want to get back again. And I will in time. They're out there. They're not that rare. I just have to find one and find the right moment to do it. But my feeling is that I don't flip stuff. I don't buy it to resell it. I buy it and I enjoy it. And if I fall out of favor with it, or if I find I'm not wearing it enough, I'd rather someone else get to enjoy it than just have it sit in a drawer. So that's kind of how I feel about it. If I sell something, it's not.
00:10:35
Speaker
It's actually hopefully going to someone who's going to enjoy it. So it's actually, in some ways, bringing some joy to that watch versus it just being isolated in a dark drawer somewhere. So that's kind of how I generally feel about it.
00:10:46
Speaker
Yeah, I guess for me, I have sold things and I've been like super upset when I sell them. I'm just like, oh my gosh, how am I going to find another one in this condition? And especially when it comes to vintage, as Jason said, when it's modern, I mean, you could go out all day and find them at least on the secondary market because you can't go into a boutique and buy anything anymore. So
00:11:08
Speaker
For me, there have been things that I've sold, but I've also bought them back before. So I've had that experience of letting something go and knowing when I really want it back and going and buying it back. But I think what happens is at least someone who's in my position is that I'll sell something because maybe I want something else. And as Jason said, if it's not getting as much risk time for me and something else pops up that I have to have, I'm okay parting with something that I don't wear as much to get something that I will wear a lot.
00:11:37
Speaker
Whereas Ryan since you collect memorabilia that stuff kind of sits on a shelf or in a storage facility or wherever you put them and you look at them and admire them and you take care of them however you want to. But you're not physically wearing the item or using the item and I think that that's the difference of buying and selling when it comes to this sort of stuff. Also for me it's like
00:11:58
Speaker
Sometimes I see stuff pop up that I never thought I wanted, and if I have to make, you know, move some things around to make it work for me, then sometimes you have to offload something.
00:12:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's true, too. There have been moments where I wanted to buy something kind of big, and I just didn't have the cash to do it, and I had to sell some stuff. So it was a matter of, are these two or three things worth this one other thing? But I think it's actually a good point that you made about watches, in my opinion, are for wearing. They're not for sitting in a safe or in a drawer, personally. And so it is different than maybe collecting. Because when I was younger, I would collect basketball cards primarily.
00:12:35
Speaker
And, you know, you kind of look at them sort of, but you don't like stare at them every day, probably because you don't get that same utility out of like a watch you use. I use my watch. I look at my watch probably 50 times a day, you know, and just peer at it and see what time it is. So, so if I'm not using the thing, I don't really want to have it around anymore. One of the problems though with collecting watches is that you only have two wrists and like I only wear her watch on one wrist and
00:13:00
Speaker
There's only seven days a week. And before you know it, if you end up having 20 or 30 or 40 watches, you don't get around to wearing them that often. So one of the things I've been trying to do lately is make sure whatever watch I pick, I have to wear it for three days straight. Because I used to switch every day and sometimes multiple times a day. And I'm like, eh.
00:13:19
Speaker
That that like encourages me to have more stuff than I really should have so now I'm gonna wear things like through at least minimum three days and if I find myself on day two wanting to take it off and put something else on I probably don't want that watch anymore. You know nudge myself and maybe moving on.
00:13:38
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And I think another thing to add to that is that these items are valuable, and there are a lot of people that buy stuff just to flip it. And some people have that as their sole business and income, and that's great. But some people go ahead and they buy stuff just to flip it on the side, and then they realize that they're not going to make as much money as they thought they would. And then it just ends up kind of being a whole bunch of nonsense.
00:14:04
Speaker
But you have these people that are buying things and then pricing them at a higher price point waiting for someone else to buy it. And the other thing I think is important is that a lot of people when they want to buy something, they feel like they have to offload something first in order to get it. And when it comes to a financial standpoint, that does make sense. But my advice to people always is try and find a way to make it work to buy the thing that you want. Because if what you're trying to sell is kosher,
00:14:31
Speaker
someone's going to buy it. There's always a buyer for the thing that you have to sell as long as it's kosher and you don't want to miss out on the thing that you want to buy because especially in vintage things go fast. In modern things go fast and especially in vintage it's hard to sometimes find those things again especially at specific price points. I agree it is. I kind of feel and this is maybe unfair because like you said some people do this for a living and I get that.
00:14:58
Speaker
But I think what soured me a little bit on watch collecting over the past few years, at least the narrative around it, is that these things have become financial instruments and assets. And I don't know, this is just my thing.
00:15:13
Speaker
I think once money gets in too deep into things, it kind of spoils almost everything. And you're right that the values get up there and sometimes you want to be careful because you have money in something and you don't want to lose it because you damage it. That's a different story than like, well, I'll buy this for 50 and then the market's frothy, I'll sell it for 60. And I don't really care about the object. I just care about the money. There's other things. You should go buy stocks instead. That's all stocks really are. Exactly.
00:15:41
Speaker
So, but anyway, that's, that's, it's unfair to like, I'm not, I don't, shouldn't really pass judgment on other people. Of course they can do whatever they want. But for me, like whenever I talk to watches with friends and it starts to veer into like, what's that worth? Or like, do you think that's a good value or is this undervalued? Like I just don't have any interest in talking about.
00:15:59
Speaker
personally about talking about that side of watch collecting. It's just not interesting to me. No, it should honestly be. It should be buy what you love. And if you, if you pay a little extra for something and, you know, let, let people scoff at you, it's not a big deal, but if you love it, you will never regret it. You will never think twice or look at your bank account again to see the money go out.
00:16:19
Speaker
you'll appreciate it and you'll be happy that you did it. That's how I feel. Yeah. And I paid up for things that like at the time seemed silly, you know? Sure. But here's the thing. I wanted that thing. Like I wanted it and I had the money and I earned the money and I wanted it and like I didn't buy it because I thought I'd make money. I figured I'd lose money on this thing. Like this is not something anyone else is willing to pay this price for this thing probably, but that doesn't, that's okay. I just want it and I want to enjoy it and I can have it for 10 years or whatever. And like, that's fine. So anyway, that's my take on it at least.
00:16:49
Speaker
Do you find that a lot of vintage collectors have this moment in their collecting life cycle where they move from vintage to modern? I'm starting to see it happen more frequently, partially because in some areas like the prices on vintage have gotten out of control. And so it's hard for people to get into stuff they like.
00:17:10
Speaker
Like for example, it might cost you 25 grand to buy like a really nice, you know, vintage sub 5512, 5513 or something like that to get like a really good one. Or, you know, that's a lot of money. Or you can buy like, if you can get a new one from an AD, you know, you can get a brand new sub, which is awesome.
00:17:27
Speaker
for 8600 bucks like new and if you can't get it for 86 you can get it for 10 on the gray market like you can get it for half or you know even less than half of what a vintage one would cost and so I think people are like you know what
00:17:41
Speaker
I'm not going to spend 25. I'll spend eight or nine or 10 on this thing. And it'll be just as good, maybe better in a lot of ways. And I think you're starting to see some of that. I also think that the manufacturers, I think, have really stepped up their game in terms of design, some vintage style throwbacks, which I think is bringing some vintage people into modern.
00:18:04
Speaker
I really enjoyed Omega's 60th anniversary, the 2915, the 2913 and 2914, or whatever it was, the trilogy series watches, which were basically carbon copies of the originals. Yeah, I have the Speedmaster. Yeah, right. And that watch is amazing. And the vintage version of that is $150,000.
00:18:26
Speaker
Yeah, forget it. Forget it, right? So it's like you can buy the modern recreation, which is the movement's not the same, but it's damn good. And the design is essentially identical. What was that? $7,500 or something? I don't even know. $5,500? $6,500? Whatever it was. It was closer to the $8,000 mark. OK, fine. I mean, if you're OK buying a pre-owned too, I mean, to be honest, I got mine for $5,200.
00:18:54
Speaker
There you go. Practically new. That watch is waterproof, or not waterproof, but water resistant, up to a reasonable level. It's mechanically sound. It's going to work. You're not going to have to service it for the next five years. You're not going to have to worry about parts being replaced on it. You're not going to pay $100,000 for something or $150,000 or whatever.
00:19:16
Speaker
I think that these brands have brought back some of the sensibilities of the vintage styling that people liked. And I think that also helps people get into some of the more modern stuff that they might now pay more attention to that they hadn't before. And I think just trends change. Vintage Daytona's got out of control. Every single vintage Daytona was like 75 to 100 grand. And then you can get, if you can get one, even if you can't get one from an AD and you have to go gray market or you buy...
00:19:43
Speaker
it's still of course these are big numbers still but they're like 25 or you know for a gold one or a steel one's like 12 and it's like wait a second I can buy an old maybe broken maybe fake maybe I'm gonna get ripped off on for 90 or I can get a really damn awesome incredibly durable incredibly accurate rock solid modern steel Daytona if I can get one new for 12 from the from the AD and if I can't
00:20:08
Speaker
If I go aftermarket, I'm talking 18 to 20, which is still a ton of money, but it's five times less than a vintage one that may not really even be the one you think you're buying. So I think people got sick of getting screwed, frankly, and the prices. So I think people are looking at modern these days.
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely think there's a time and place for both. For sure. So there's this one watch I've been looking for forever, which is the Eber or Eberhard or Eberhard Scaffograph 100, which is... Oh, that's some watch. It's awesome. I've been wanting one for eight years. I couldn't find one anywhere. They're incredibly hard to find. They didn't make many of them. And I found one and like, I was basically like, I'm not buying vintage watches anymore, but then I found this watch finally. And so I bought that one. It's undeniable.
00:20:53
Speaker
Yeah, I've been looking for it for eight years. I'm going to buy it. If I find one, that's good. I bought one and that's great, but I'm not really looking for vintage stuff at the moment anymore unless something really special comes up like some old Patek that I've been looking for or something really special that I have room for that I could buy that I would buy, but otherwise, probably not. Has there been a particular brand that has done that switch from vintage to modern that you have
00:21:23
Speaker
like almost been like, this is like my new go-to, or you like try to diversify the collection? I think Rolex is an example where like I would, five years ago, I'd never buy a modern Rolex, it just wasn't on my radar. But I had a number of vintage, I had a number of vintage Daytonas, and I had like the 1016, the Explorer I, I have two of those, which is probably one of my favorite watches, period. And those were pretty
Transition to Modern Rolex
00:21:48
Speaker
cheap when I bought them.
00:21:50
Speaker
I had some subs, I had a couple milgausses, I had some really cool vintage stuff. And then like I said, I bought this modern sub because an AD had offered it to me at retail and I said, yeah, I'll give it a shot. And I've loved it. So from that point on, I don't think I bought, maybe I bought one other vintage Rolex, but since then I sold a bunch of my vintage Rolex and I bought a GMT, I bought a sub, I bought a Daytona.
00:22:14
Speaker
And I think that's, I kind of flipped over there, but I will say that occasionally I'll see a really charming vintage sub or a vintage Daytona and I'll want, I'll feel the itch for it again. I haven't bought one, but I'll feel like, yeah, I remember why I liked these. They're kind of perfect. And I'd maybe like to have them at some point. They really are, yeah.
00:22:36
Speaker
Yeah, and I mean, the only thing that I could think of if somebody really didn't want a modern version of that would be because they want the charm, they want the patina on the loom plots, on the hands, possibly the bezel if it's a GMT, right?
00:22:54
Speaker
that you won't get with a new watch, but some people don't care for that. Some people don't know what that is. Some people don't want it if they do know what it is. And like you said before, it just becomes sometimes too much of you become a beekeeper. Yes, secretly putting it.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah, but like you said, I love a vintage GMT too because of those little details and the faded bezels and the age. So you can like them both, and I do like them both. But lately, I've been turning more towards, on a daily basis, wearing modern watches just because I don't have to worry about them. And I've got two young kids dealing with bath time and just crap everywhere.
00:23:35
Speaker
You know, it's like, I don't want to have to worry about like my watch getting banged or like, you know, getting soaked in water or milk poured on it, like, fine, you know, that kind of thing. So it's so hard when you care about things that much. Yeah, it is.
00:23:49
Speaker
So you guys have written several books and one in particular doesn't have to be crazy at work is the title and the way that I perceive it, it's kind of the idea that people overwork themselves really for no reason, right? Unnecessary meetings, calls, et cetera. Is that sound? Yeah. If you look at the cover of the book, it's like that is the, that is the book. If you look at the cover, it's like, don't do these things.
00:24:13
Speaker
And the main thing is that for the most part, especially in the technology world, the industry that we're in, people work too long. Companies are pushing people too hard. There are people where like lack of sleep as a badge of honor. And I just don't think that these are healthy or sustainable trends. And we want to push back hard against it because the narrative currently is like, you know, bust your ass work, your work, work, work, work, work, hustle, hustle, hustle. And
00:24:38
Speaker
that's how you make things happen. And I think some people can maybe make things happen that way, but most people end up completely burned out, frustrated, exhausted, and burned out on what they used to love to do. And that's not a healthy thing. And I don't think it's a good thing for the industry if that's how most people end up. And that is actually how most people are ending up, is they look back on their time in it and they go,
00:24:59
Speaker
Why did I work so hard? For what? Why did I believe that that was the way to do it? And so we're just pushing back and saying you can do a lot in 40 hours. Like 40 hours a week is a lot of time. You can achieve a whole bunch with reasonable hours and have a good night's sleep and have a good day, good life and your weekends to yourself and your nights to yourself and those don't belong to work, they belong to you. And you know, put in a good solid day's work, a good, you know, honest day's work and that's enough. That's enough. Yeah. And I guess
00:25:29
Speaker
My question here is more so when it comes to collecting watches and relating back to it doesn't have to be crazy at work and these philosophies. Do you try and follow that same sort of minimal acquisition process, low mental energy? Or do you like to take your time, read articles, speak to the seller or the dealer several times? Or do you just know what you want and when you find it, you hop on it and just do it?
00:25:57
Speaker
Yeah, I'm a bit of a spontaneous buyer. I do research before I know I want to research a watch. I read Hope Dinky a lot. I read the forums. I'm kind of up on stuff that I know I like. And then sometimes I'm actively searching something out, but other times I'll just kind of
00:26:14
Speaker
have something in the back of my mind that I want, but I kind of forget about it. And then one pops up and I'll like, you know what, I'm going to buy that or, or, or I'm not going to buy that, or I'm going to sell that. Cause someone says, Hey, do you have one of those? Oh yeah, I've been looking to sell it. And they're like, how much I go, here's a number. And we just do a deal. So.
00:26:29
Speaker
I read this somewhere, I forget where it was, but one of the worst things you can be is a connoisseur. What I mean by that is somebody who can only appreciate the best stuff. Or the best of the best, right? Right. That's what I mean. Or the best of the best. You're disappointed because what I don't want to do is I don't want to
00:26:49
Speaker
talk myself out of everything because there's one little tiny scratch or one little tiny nick or the loom color is not custardy enough or like something. You know what I mean? You can get into this place where you're looking for that perfect specimen and you're just upset all the time or you're frustrated or you're anxious about it. I want to be able to enjoy a broader range of things than just the best version of something.
00:27:11
Speaker
Absolutely. But it's hard. It's hard sometimes. Sure. And you want to be excited when you open it up. You want to expect what you're expecting. Yeah. And I hate to feel like I'm disappointed because that's not quite orange enough. The loom is not quite orange enough or that fade isn't quite faded enough. It's like
00:27:33
Speaker
That's a pretty narrow band of existence and I don't think it's healthy and I've been there. I used to kind of be like that. So I've really kind of loosened up and just trying to find good examples of things that I like and just go, this is the object, this is what it is. And if I can't enjoy it because the shade of blue is not quite what I had envisioned, then I'm in too deep and it's not healthy. So I really have backed off that and just tried to enjoy the things that I have and whenever I have a chance to get something, I'll enjoy it.
00:27:58
Speaker
right? And then you do end up searching for that perfect thing. And then you end up spending all this time looking for something and it, you know, it's easy not to find, it's so easy not to find the perfect thing, but there's plenty of really great things. And that's good enough for me is what I've kind of realized.
00:28:14
Speaker
Yeah. But the other thing is with modern watches, you don't have to deal with any of that. That might be one of the other reasons why I've maybe gotten to modern more recently is like there is no patina. There are no fades. There are no scratches or you don't have to worry about if the case has been polished or not. Like it's just the watch that came out of the factory right now or a year ago. Like that's the watch. And so it's in fact
00:28:38
Speaker
a lot less stressful to buy modern stuff. And I kind of like that. I also realized that I just like to support brands that I like. Like, for example, Lange. If I want to buy a Lange, now I'm going to buy it at the boutique because I want to support the brand. If I buy it on the gray market, and I have bought plenty of things on the gray market or resale or whatever, but if I do that, the brand doesn't get any benefit out of that transaction. And I want to support the brands because I want them to make more things that I like.
00:29:08
Speaker
And so I've been more conscious about that. When possible, if I can get something through the proper channels, I will. If I can't, of course, then I'll go somewhere else. But if I can, I'd rather buy through the brands.
00:29:23
Speaker
Yeah, understandable. And it just makes the process, I guess, that much easier as long as the boutique has what you'd like to buy. Yes. And as long as it's not like a stuffy, weird, like experience, because I don't like the fancy things. I'm not a fancy person. So going to a boutique and like you like some champagne, it's like I'm going to walk right out of there. It's like not my vibe, you know, but
00:29:44
Speaker
But I do try to do the right thing as often as I can when it comes to buying things from the brands. But like you said, unlike we know, it's not always easy to get what you want that way. Things may not be available or you may have to buy some piece that you don't want to get something else. And I'm not going to play that game either. So I try, but if I can't, I'll go buy a resale or a gray market or from another collector or whatever.
00:30:09
Speaker
Yeah,
Predicting Remote Work's Future
00:30:10
Speaker
you know, your books, which I mean, it's hysterical. They're great. And if anyone has not read them, you need to look them up because remote basically predicted the future as well. Seven years in the making. But what I found fascinating about all three is a lot of detail into organization, especially with even going into base camp. Like that was the big thing was you guys have given people with every direction. If you're taking anything from these books,
00:30:38
Speaker
organization is so key. And with collecting, if you're not organized, I mean, you pretty much become a hoarder at that point. Yes. Then so I would have to assume that you are one of the most organized people on the planet and tell me if I'm wrong on that. Well, I'm organized about some things. Yeah, I am. But but not everything, not as well, not as organized as I'd like to be. But yeah, you have to be careful not to
00:31:04
Speaker
I mean, you don't want to amass things. You want to collect things, which means like be deliberate about the things that you have and the choices you make. And collecting also means getting rid of things that you don't want and all that stuff versus like amassing things. It's just like hoarding. It's like having, you know, 15 versions of things. And by the way, I know like in different
00:31:22
Speaker
in different fields. Like, for example, having 15 Jordan rookies would be pretty amazing. Like, that's a different kind of thing. But like, I don't need to have 15, you know, Rolex subs just because I could buy 15 Rolex subs. Like, I don't want to do that kind of collecting. That's not for me. Yeah, there's a I know, personally, Jordan and his house has a box somewhere that is full of his rookie cards from FLIR. And I can only imagine if I had that box, how many watches I could probably get out of selling.
00:31:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And you'd be a hoarder. Yeah. Then I'd be you growing up, Cam. Cameron growing up had everything under the sun and it didn't matter if he, if he was onto it, he had to have every single one. And my parents loved getting them for him.
00:32:06
Speaker
Well, it's funny because I think when you're younger, it's a little bit different because that is, that is the goal. Like that is sort of the aim because you're not, I don't think you've really developed your tastes yet, you know, but like you want every Jordan rookie or Pippen rookie or Magic Johnson or, you know, whatever the hell was going on back then, right? Like you want, you want or Dominique or whatever like that. This is my error. I'm talking about that. No, I love, I interviewed Dominique. It was the best conversation I ever had with someone about the MBA.
00:32:32
Speaker
So back then, you did want as many as you could have, because that's all you kind of knew as a kid. But now, I think as you get older, at least with watches specifically, because the dollar value is quite a bit higher, I think you want to sort of figure out what your tastes are, and you want to satisfy those things, and you want to enjoy those things. But you can't enjoy 200 of something when it's a watch.
00:33:00
Speaker
It's not, it's not the same. Now some people have huge. It's not feasible. Yeah. It doesn't seem reasonable or feasible. The one thing I will say about my childhood collecting is that I had a purpose. So for example, I used to collect when I was a kid.
00:33:15
Speaker
Hot Wheels, but I refused to buy any of the Hot Wheels that were like these crazy looking concept cars, something you would never even see on the road. I only wanted to collect a car that you could either go into a dealership and buy or cars that were vintage.
00:33:31
Speaker
you know, the previous models of cars, but I only really ever wanted to collect the real thing and I don't know why. I don't know why that is, but I always had this like purpose. That's cool. I mean, that's a cool, but the thing is that's cool because you had a system. I like collecting systems. They're always fun. Like people who collect that way. I think it's really interesting or like people who only collect birthier watches or whatever, or you know, like there's something really cool or only one specific model, but they want every variation of it. I think that's kind of fun.
00:34:00
Speaker
That's cool. It makes it makes looking for that item fund. Would you say that like, during a pandemic, like if there was like, like during this, if you had to start collecting something, like what would that be? To me, it's got to be something that you that you want, that you enjoy, that you respect and appreciate. So I don't know if timing has anything to do with that other than coming into, you know, maybe maybe some people have had more time to
00:34:30
Speaker
to explore maybe their interests and their passions, perhaps, because maybe they're working at home more. And so they're just kind of around other things more. I don't really know. But I don't think the pandemic would spur on, unless you want to collect vaccines, which that could be kind of handy. But I don't know. I don't really know. I would say that, though, it puts a lot of things in perspective, perhaps. And actually, one of the things that's
00:34:58
Speaker
putting perspective for me is like there's been times when I've really like debated whether or not to buy something, a specific thing that I've been looking like a specific watch I've been wanting. And I'm a little bit looser on it now. It's not an income difference. Let's say I had the same amount of money three years ago that I have today. It's more like, you know what?
00:35:15
Speaker
everything could end tomorrow. This whole year is sort of like, if you can afford it and you think you can enjoy it and you want it and it'll bring you some joy and you can appreciate it, buy it. So I've been sort of a little bit looser. I've been buying more things, I'd say, over the past year than I had maybe in the previous year or two for that reason. It could all go away anytime anyway. I might as well enjoy the things you have.
00:35:41
Speaker
And it's just, I think, a good reminder. But there's also the other side of it, which is maybe you should be really frugal. Maybe this won't last. And you won't have what you have now and why waste it on objects. So it just depends which way you want to go with it. I could see both sides.
00:35:58
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess for someone like you though, it's a different story and even for me too and Ryan as well is that we do constantly collect. So I think it's less of a time we're living in and it's just always more so if a thing pops up and we can make it work and it's what we want, then we'll do it. And now that we just have maybe a little bit more time at home or traveling, if you are and things like that, that you spend a lot more time maybe looking and thinking about these things.
00:36:28
Speaker
where someone who doesn't collect at all might not be thinking about this whatsoever. Agreed. Agreed. You've been a New York Times bestselling author several times over. As a collector yourself, do you find it flattering that people collect the books that you have co-authored and are constantly looking forward to the next one as well? I had never thought about that. I mean, we've only, well, we've written, um,
00:36:53
Speaker
depending on how you count really, five or six books. And it's great to see people who like what we have to say and find it valuable. So it's always fun to see some like one of our books on a bookshelf or like, you'll watch a movie and you'll see like a bookshelf and I'm always looking like is one of our books on the bookshelf? Occasionally they are. It's kind of fun to spot them in the wild. But I don't know if we have
00:37:19
Speaker
Collectors, because we've only written a few. It's not like we're some prolific author who's written 30 books and someone's read all of them or there's some like many, many series of 12 books that you want to get some fantasy series or something. So I don't know if we have book collectors who collect our stuff, but certainly there's people who've bought all the things we've written and it's wonderful to hear from them and to know that what we've had to say is useful for them. It's the same thing as just anyone using our product. I run into people all the time
00:37:48
Speaker
my neighbor here, where we are right now, my friend into her recently, and she's like, oh, I use Basecamp. She's like, what are you doing, man? Who do I do? And he's like, Basecamp? Oh, I use Basecamp? So that's always fun to run into people. Or I'll get an email from someone with a hey.com email address. I'm like, oh my God, that's so cool. So it's fun to run into people in that way and put something out there in the world that other people like. That's really a wonderful feeling.
00:38:15
Speaker
Yeah, it's got to be flattering. As someone, as yourself, who puts so much passion into something like collecting watches, it's got to be flattering for people to have a passion for the products that they're using to run their businesses and for those products to make their lives easier, right? For sure.
00:38:34
Speaker
Well, Jay, we've reached that moment in the podcast that we like to call the collector's team rundown, which is basically a quick list of topics based upon your personal collection. So we do this with each of our guests and it could be a short answer. It could be a long answer, but we'll leave that up to you. So let's do it.
00:38:54
Speaker
Alrighty, the one that got away, what's the watch that you missed and maybe you can't get over or you thought about or even one that you missed at one point and went back and got?
00:39:05
Speaker
Yeah, the one watch that got away from me was the, is the AP 14802 is the reference, which is the Jubilee Royal Oak that just came out as a 20 year anniversary of the Royal Oak with a salmon dial, steel watch, salmon dial, 39 millimeters. That watch a few years ago, it was like 20 grand or something like that.
00:39:26
Speaker
And I was like, oh my gosh, that's a lot. I don't know. It seems like a lot. And now it's like 100. It's just not happening. I'm not buying that watch. But that's a watch I absolutely love. And I regret not buying that one. And it's gone. Those aren't coming back down to Earth. And maybe they do at some point. But not now. And so that one got away. Yeah, that's some watch.
00:39:53
Speaker
Yeah, seriously. What about the on deck circle? So what do you have your eye on for next? It's funny. Like I used to, um, early on I was willing to FPGorn stuff and then I fell out of favor because my tastes sort of changed and I sold a bunch of stuff that I had and, um,
00:40:15
Speaker
I'd say over the past year or so, year and a half, two years maybe, I've really kind of gotten back into Jorn. So I'm looking for a lot of people these days, which makes it really hard to find, and they've become very expensive. Some of the early Jorn pieces, I'd like to find an early resonance. I'd like to find an early chrono.
00:40:36
Speaker
chronograph, whatever. There's some stuff in his early days that I really like. And so I'm looking for some of those things.
00:40:47
Speaker
not a specific one. There's not like one I know someone has that I want kind of thing, but like if something pops up that's really interesting, I'd like to grab something there. So I think that's kind of one of those things. I'm also looking for a watch actually that I did sell. This is the one watch I want to buy back that I sold. It's a longer one, Darth. So it's the all black dial, black date wheel, and then a platinum case.
00:41:16
Speaker
I love that watch. I love it. I sold it a few years ago. And they're basically the same price as when I sold it. It's not like they moved. They're really hard to find. So that's also on deck, even though I've owned it in the past. Yeah. Any longer one, to be honest, could potentially be one of the perfect maybe one watch, two watch collection pieces for sure.
00:41:40
Speaker
It's one of my, I own three of them. It's one of my, it's probably all in like the perfect watch. I think like it's pretty much perfect. And that's like a kind of a series, that's a watch that I'd like to collect a few more variations on just cause I love them so much. They don't get old.
00:41:58
Speaker
No, they don't. It's like one of the watches where different variations don't get old. You don't look at them and be like, why do I have 15 of these? It's like, no, each one is remarkable, to be honest. I find them to be so satisfying, just thoroughly satisfying watches to wear. Perfect size, good little bit of weight, tons of information on the dial, even though they're so orderly, even though they're a
00:42:24
Speaker
they're asymmetric, which is awesome. I don't know, they're just beautiful to me. To me, they're perfect. Yeah, and I'm a big symmetry fan, and I just, my eyes are usually drawn to things that are symmetric, especially when it comes to watches. But for whatever reason, that is one of the only asymmetric dials that I just, even cases that I'm just, can't get over that watch. You know what's interesting about that is it's actually incredibly well balanced, which is why.
00:42:54
Speaker
It's very geometrically balanced. Proportions are perfect. And I think that in many ways, it is a balanced watch. It's not a symmetric watch, but it's perfectly balanced. And I think that probably makes up for the fact for you, for your eye, that it's not traditionally symmetrical.
00:43:11
Speaker
Yeah. And they went with a great case size and at least in the regular model, even the little Longa one would be great too. Oh, those are cool. Yeah. I've never seen one of those in person, but I love like a 36 millimeter one would be awesome. I don't like the bigger one, like the Grande or whatever it is. Yeah. I don't mind larger cases on Longas. Like I have a
00:43:33
Speaker
one that's 42 millimeters, which is, which is fine. It's bigger than I'd like, but it's, I'm okay with it in that brand from that, in that watch. But, but as far as like the longer one at that size, it doesn't work for me. I don't like that watch that size. Yeah. So on the opposite end of that, what's the unobtainable, the one that you can't have? It's either maybe in a museum or a private collection that you know of, or maybe it's too expensive or prices have skyrocketed. Yeah. Uh, that would be the Patek.
00:44:02
Speaker
three, four, four, eight in white gold. So there's not many of them. They are, I've always been expensive, but now they're just, I think one just sold a few days ago for like $1.2 million. It's like, Oh my gosh, forget it. Right. But aesthetically to me, that watch is perfect. Absolutely perfect. Perfect size as well. And like the,
00:44:29
Speaker
just the perfect representation of what a beautiful perpetual calendar should look like. It's lovely.
00:44:36
Speaker
And that's one of those watches too, if you can get your hands on like a white gold Patek bracelet or anything like that, you can swap them out. It's just, it's such a versatile watch too. It looks so modern too. Like that could come out today. It's one of those designs that truly is timeless. I don't think it'll ever look old. It'll never look new or old. It just, it is so spot on.
00:45:03
Speaker
Anyway, it's it's unobtainium. Basically, I'm not I'm not getting it the yellow gold versions I would those are still those have gotten crazy, too But like in my lifetime, it'd be nice to be able to pull one of those off But the white gold just forget it not gonna happen Wow, so what about the page one rewrite if you could if you could collect something different than your current so besides watches What would it be?
00:45:26
Speaker
I don't know what it would be now, but for a while I collected old radios.
00:45:40
Speaker
The problem is that they take a lot of space. It's the same thing with cars. I like a lot of cars, but I don't have room for a lot of cars. Watches are so perfect because you could put 30 of them in a drawer. These tabletop radios take up too much space, but I always loved them because they had so much variety to them.
00:45:59
Speaker
It was like an important object at the time. It was like how people connected with the world at the time. And the designs were daring and original and different. And you could literally have 1,000 different ones, and they'd all look a little bit different. And it was kind of a lot more art deco-y. And it's just really beautiful, beautiful little things. So I collected that for a while until I just ran out of space. And I had maybe like 15 of them, and that was enough.
00:46:25
Speaker
And most of them didn't work. So getting back to the watch thing, one of the reasons I like to collect watches is because they work and I can use them every day. I don't tend to collect things that I can't use. And those radios, my use for them was fuel for my design mind. These are beautiful objects.
00:46:43
Speaker
but I feel like I kind of used those up pretty quickly in that way and there was nothing else left. So I kind of fell out of favor and went out of that. So I will say that the one other thing I'm slowly beginning to collect are, so I've been a big tea drinker, green tea for many, many years.
00:47:01
Speaker
And I've been collecting chawans, which are matchables from Japan. And so I've been building a small collection of those. And, you know, those are things again, I use those every day. So it's something I can use. And so I like that.
00:47:18
Speaker
Is there specific types of green tea that you like? I go to China once a year for work, and one of our factories is in the bamboo forests outside of Hangzhou, and they always give us green tea, freshly picked from all the farms and the fields.
00:47:40
Speaker
And it's different than any type of green tea I've ever had in my life. It's really just like fresh ground up leaves in hot water. It doesn't have the same taste. It's so different.
00:47:53
Speaker
Yeah, so I like Japanese greens. So there's a difference between Japanese greens and Chinese greens, traditionally. Chinese greens are typically heated, either pan fried or dried over flame, basically, while Japanese green teas are typically air dried and they aren't as oxidized. So Japanese green teas are typically truly green, while a lot of Chinese green teas, there are green Chinese teas too, but a lot of them
00:48:21
Speaker
are a little bit more on the brown side because they're toasted or they're heated and there's more oxidation. I don't know what you had when you were in China, but I like... I don't know. It also might have been like a farmer's tea, just like the real, the leaves that hadn't been dry, just kind of fresh, natural. I don't know what they might actually drink in the fields there or like in the farms, it's hard to say. But I like on the Japanese side, I drink matcha every morning and then I drink
00:48:50
Speaker
Primarily, Gyokuro or just Sencha are the two Japanese teas that I like. And there's different varieties of all those and stuff. And I don't want to go into all the detail on that. But those are the three. Gyokuro, Matcha and Sencha are my primary goatees on the Japanese green tea side. And have you had the chance and opportunity to go to Japan and be able to try some of this stuff?
00:49:14
Speaker
I have. I've never been to China, but I have been to Japan and had some wonderful teas when I was visiting Kyoto. I met a friend there who lives there. He's lived there. He's an American, but he's lived there for I think a couple, maybe 20 years. And so he's really ingrained in the culture and knows a lot about teamwork.
00:49:30
Speaker
And he sent me some stuff that the Japanese don't export. So you can't get it over here in the US, but you can get it there. And he sent me a few things and he's put me onto a few things. So that's been fun. Awesome. Who's the goat for you in the collecting world? I don't know. That's a really interesting question. Or someone that you look up to, someone's collection maybe that you admire. Yeah. I like Eric Ku a lot. I like his stuff because
00:49:58
Speaker
His tastes are very diverse. And I just appreciate the fact that he likes watches. It's not that he likes, I mean, he likes a lot of brands, but he likes watches. And so he'll buy anything that appeals to him. And he's not like a brand whore, basically. I mean, if this is an amazing thing, he'll buy it, or he'll buy it from a small independent manufacturer, independent manufacturer, just to...
00:50:24
Speaker
as a patronage buyer to help somebody, support somebody. I just like his sensibilities. I like his aesthetics. I like the things that I like what he sees. So that there's someone, I also really appreciate Steve Halleck. These are both dealers. They happen to be dealers. But Steve Halleck is like a guy who focuses and has focused for years on independent watchmaking, which is now becoming something that people were really paying attention to. But he was championing this, you know,
00:50:53
Speaker
He's been champion for a decade and so he's always had I think really good taste and really interesting eye for things that other people weren't onto yet. So I kind of I've sort of been introduced to a number of things through him because of that.
00:51:08
Speaker
And then, you know, I've gotten to know Ben Klimmer really well over at Hodenke and I've really always admired his taste and his eye for things and his collection. Yeah, his collections changed a lot over the years and I bought a few things from him and I think I've sold him a couple things and he's got a great eye and great taste and really appreciate the things that he buys. And he's very, very cool thing about Ben is Ben's like...
00:51:32
Speaker
Ben's one of those guys who really researches stuff and wants the exact right one. That's not necessarily me, but I really respect how deep he goes into something and how much he knows when he's got the one that he really, really wants. Do you think you like the chase or the sail more? Is it the hunt or more when you're on it afterwards? I think that's what tells you how much you like the thing you just bought.
00:52:01
Speaker
realize that you liked the hunt more when you get the fit you get the thing and you're like Kind of not let down but like not as excited as you thought you'd be then you realize that you just were in it for the hunt And that ends up happening a lot when you chase trends You're like man, everyone's into the whatever right now. I want to get one of those and you get it and you're like Well, I got it, but it wasn't really what I wanted. It's what everyone else wanted and I wanted to be like everybody else It's just a good reminder that sometimes that happens that it happens to the best of us. I think
00:52:31
Speaker
But ideally, you've got to enjoy the object more than the hunt because if not, then you're just chasing a high. And I think that can get you into trouble.
00:52:44
Speaker
I enjoy both. I really do enjoy tracking something down. I enjoy making the deal. Like I like dealing. So when I say like dealing, I like to negotiate like, you know, someone has something for like, it's ridiculous, but like someone has something for like, I'll just make up a number 10 grand. Like I'll try, you know, 9,500. Not like it matters, but I just, I want to, I like the game a little bit. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm the same exact way. I think my favorite part is.
00:53:09
Speaker
is negotiating because no one likes just spending 10 grand on something, but the fact that you can negotiate and maybe get something, even if it's $50 or someone's going to cover overnight shipping, there's just something about that that is so totally, it's like instant gratification.
00:53:24
Speaker
I find it really satisfying and nobody involved in the deal that I've ever been involved with is ever going to like lose a meal over the amount of money we're negotiating over. It's just like a fun. It's just you want to feel like you got something a little bit extra. At least I do. I enjoy that part of it. So I enjoy the negotiation. I enjoy the deal making side of it. I enjoy the hunt, but ultimately I have to enjoy the thing most.
00:53:49
Speaker
If I don't enjoy the thing most, then it's sort of an empty buy for me. And then I end up regretting it. It sits in a drawer. And that's
Was Jason Fried Born with the Collector's Gene?
00:53:58
Speaker
no fun either for me. So I guess finishing up on that, the most important question is, do you feel that you were born with the collectors, Gene? I don't think so, actually. Because I don't collect that many things.
00:54:16
Speaker
But I do know what I like. And oftentimes I like multiple versions of that thing because I like, for example, thinking about matchables. They're all handmade. There's so many different artists that make them. I feel like it's impossible to be satisfied by having three. There's always another one that's interesting. Ooh, that's a cool one. I never saw it seen that before. And I love that glaze or I love that shape. So to me,
00:54:41
Speaker
I have an appetite for more of that kind of thing, but I don't collect a lot of stuff. Like right now it's primarily watches and like matchables, you know, and that's kind of it. So there's other things that I have that I could imagine myself collecting, but I don't. So I don't naturally go towards collecting things that I like.
00:55:02
Speaker
tend to collect things that I really, really like. And there's only a few of those things that I'm really, really into. And also just the practical nature of some things because I like cars a lot.
00:55:13
Speaker
but I would never want to collect cars. I just don't, I don't want to go to the hassle. I don't have the space. Yeah. I don't want to... That's David's side of the game, huh? That's David's side of the game, yeah. And I think David's getting annoyed by it too. So it's like, I love cars. But, and if I was like a natural collector, I would start collecting cars, but I don't want to do it because I don't want to deal with all the other stuff. So I like to collect small things that I can use. And there's only a few of those things that are, I think, collectible in my life right now. So that's where I'm at.
00:55:42
Speaker
Love it. Well, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you, Jay. We really appreciate your time. It was really fun. Thanks for having me on the show. All right, that does it for this episode. Thanks for listening, everybody. This has been Collector's Gene Radio, signing off.