Transcript
Tim Sackett: Hey, everybody. It's Tim Sackett. We're back with another edition of the Frontlines podcast. and i got My co -hostess with the mostest, Madeline Arano is here. Madeline, how are you doing?
Madeline Laurano: I am doing well, Tam. I'm excited to be here.
Tim Sackett: i don't know if it was my earbuds or what like that music came in so hot i was like whoa It's like, let's let's go.
Madeline Laurano: you know
Tim Sackett: All right.
Madeline Laurano: oh
Tim Sackett: On a Friday morning, let's wake each other up.
Madeline Laurano: 11am.
Tim Sackett: Yeah. Sorry. So Mads, you're in Boston.
Madeline Laurano: I am in Boston. The conference travel has not started yet, but it is right around the corner.
Tim Sackett: Next week, Wreckfest. And then, you know, like Rising and HR Tech and all those.
Madeline Laurano: Bye, James.
Tim Sackett: Yeah, we're we're getting into it for sure. um Madeline, I'm bringing out a friend I know. You don't know, but you obviously just met Tom Lott out of kind. come um How many do you have to tell me?
Tom Lott: climbed it
Tim Sackett: Kleindest?
Tom Lott: Cline dense.
Tim Sackett: Bye, nerds. Clindence.
Tom Lott: Yes.
Tim Sackett: is It's a law firm out of Southern California, right? Across the West Coast. um But we actually met when you were at another kind of big law firm out of like the Dallas -Fort Worth area, BAO. And that's when then we met. So we wanted to bring you on because people are going, wait a minute, those are white collar jobs. This is Frontline's podcast.
Tim Sackett: but it's also kind of high volume hiring and you had a like a really unique story And so we'll talk about that. But Tom, like introduce yourself to everybody. tell them kind of Give us the the elevator pitch of of who Tom is.
Tom Lott: Sure. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. I'm super excited to be on y 'all's podcast. So Tom Lott, I... I've spent most of my career in talent acquisition. I was in the Navy before I was in talent acquisition. As a matter of fact, I'm in sunny San Diego overlooking the Coronado Bay, overlooking all the naval bases, so it kind of brings me home. But I've spent my career leading recruiting teams and working closely with executives and managers to...
Tom Lott: to solve what i think is the most interesting problem in business and that's finding the right people and creating an environment where they'll actually stay so i've had the opportunity to lead recruiting from a lot of different angles and today I'm taking that experience out at Kleindienst and building out this firm's recruiting function. And honestly, I think the perspective I have right now is giving me a pretty interesting view of where talent acquisition and recruiting is headed.
Tim Sackett: I always think it's interesting when we have like, you get people that they're like, oh, I've been, I'm a i'm a TA a leader or an HR leader, but it's always in restaurants or it's always in healthcare care or it's always in manufacturing. And you had a couple of stints in legal, but I don't think your entire career hasn't been there. But like, it's interesting how people fall into something, you get good at it. And then all of a sudden, like people in that industry are like, they just keep pulling, right?
Madeline Laurano: Yeah. and you become an expert in it right that's what you know how to recruit for those roles but you know, this is it's not necessarily front lines, but lawyers are paid hourly. So I feel like this is very relevant. Yeah.
Tom Lott: Well, and we do hire a lot of hourly positions, our paralegals, our legal assistants, et cetera.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: So we're certainly certainly used to that.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: So, Tom, i want I want to dig right into it. You were one of the first people ever to share publicly. the use of like AI screening. I think, um I believe the tool was Talent Llama, right?
Tom Lott: right
Tim Sackett: And if I'm right, I think, didn't Ashby Mads pick up Talent Llama?
Tom Lott: They did.
Madeline Laurano: I think so.
Tom Lott: They did here recently.
Madeline Laurano: Someone did.
Tim Sackett: Yeah.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: Yeah, so they've integrated that. so you can't i don't I don't know, they might still be like, you know. Somebody listening, you know, put it in the comments if you can still buy Talent Llama without buying Ashby. um But it was one of the first ones that were out there.
Tim Sackett: that was said like, hey, we're going to do this kind of AI screening, early screening. And then you were doing it. you know, with in a legal firm across all of the positions but like talk to like that experience The decision to bring it in, what you saw from ah like a data standpoint.
Tim Sackett: early on.
Tom Lott: Yeah, you know, Talent Llama was fantastic. I think we were one of the first folks that... that partnered with them and they're just a great group of guys adam and ben um you know When we started to use them,
Tom Lott: it was a little bit of early adoption. And I think we had a little bit of, a it was ironic, the the folks that I think I had to get. Most bought in weren't the hiring managers or weren't that the business was actually the recruiting team um you know i think that they were all worried the robots were coming to replace them but
Tim Sackett: No doubt.
Tom Lott: But but it was great. I mean, you know within a short time We had an incredible reduction in time to fill because you know It was able to automate so many different things for us We had a it was close to like a 80 % or 79 % reduction in time to fill and we had a uh like a 60 60 something reduction in cost per hire millions of dollars in agency savings ah
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: um you know we had an increased uh hiring manager satisfaction we had a survey that on a scale of one to five and we were hovering around a 3 .1 and it went up to a 4 .6 and so you know really did uh uh help us in all areas of recruiting but
Madeline Laurano: <unk>
Tom Lott: you know, I had to explain to the recruiters at the end of the day, AI isn't going to eliminate recruiters. It's going to. expose recruiters who aren't necessarily adding human value. so
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: it was It was a great run and really looking forward to implementing some sort of AI screening over here at Kleindienst.
Tim Sackett: It's interesting. i was I was in Chicago, you know, this week and and having a conversation with like 100 staffing firm owners. And it was one of the things that like, we're talking about the advantages staffing firms have over corporate talent acquisition teams, right? And there's... There is some. Some of that is is potentially we can try technology faster than most kind of enterprise.
Tim Sackett: you know, kind of TA a teams. But like you had mentioned, a lot of corporate ATA teams. fall into this rut of... hiring. recruiter by title but really it's just someone who's the administering the function.
Tim Sackett: Right.
Tom Lott: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: They're doing the tactical aspects of it. And you had mentioned. Those people will be exposed. And I think, again, when I see like technology, automation, AI. That's what we see when you turn that on.
Tim Sackett: what difference did you like What did your recruiters turn into? what were the What was their role? How did that evolve a little bit?
Tom Lott: Well, you know, I think we had talked about this before in one of our one of our meetings, Tim, but it's the idea that you know, that small sliver of time. where recruiters can actually dig in and build that human relationship all of a sudden becomes a bigger chasm of time because ai increasingly handles the administrative work right but it can't fully replace
Tom Lott: the building of trust, the the reading of candidate motivations, or the selling of an opportunity, or understanding organizational dynamics. so The irony of all of it was that the more technology we introduce into recruiting, and I think this is this is holistic for our industry.
Tom Lott: the more important. emotional intelligence becomes and the more important that the the ability to add human value becomes. So you know our recruiters were able to really dig into that human element because they had more time to do that because AI was handling a lot of that administrative work for us.
Madeline Laurano: It's interesting. I got asked the other day, like if. if you're using AI and it's taking on some of that administrative work. Are recruiters now doing more administrative work? Does it just add on more or are they actually going to be able to focus on some of that strategic?
Madeline Laurano: an engagement kind of activity. So I'd love to hear that that's what the focus was for you.
Tom Lott: Yeah.
Madeline Laurano: um it's interesting so when you looked at talent llama and that was like one of the first and you were one of their first clients using them screening was very different than it is now and ai was very different now everyone's talking about explainability and responsible ai And script I mean, you have to be able to see.
Madeline Laurano: how some of these decisions were made right in the technology. But that wasn't the case 10 years ago. You couldn't see that. You couldn't have that explainability. When you look at screening now and when you're going to go through this evaluation, what's important to you? is it kind of those metrics and outcomes, or is it this responsible AI piece?
Tom Lott: You know, I don't think the two can be separated. I think it's two sides of the same coin. You know, Talent Llama and I'm... i'm going I'm going to blank completely on. uh who they partnered with but they partnered with a group that ensured that their platform was completely or not completely because that's impossible but as bias -free as they possibly could be
Tom Lott: um so you know i think that you when you're evaluating an ai tool you really need to ensure that you know obviously that that the tool itself is doing a good job of ensuring that biases don't come into the don't bleed into the system
Tom Lott: But I also think from a recruiting leader perspective, you have to be looking at how is this tool going to make us more effective as an organization and how is it going to free up time so that we can actually you know ah do the things that that really make recruiting.
Tom Lott: important, yeah advising a hiring manager, understanding the business, understanding the revenue, etc. So I don't think the two can really be separated. I think it's the same thing.
Tim Sackett: Tom, did did you have to have any conversations at BAL? It's a legal firm. I mean, so it's just a bunch of lawyers and ancillary like you know staff. And you're like, hey, we're bringing in AI, which...
Tim Sackett: has like if you go to outside of the legal realm like everybody's losing their minds around the legal side of it Did you have, like, have do you remember having, like, these, like, big conversations or was just kind of like...
Tim Sackett: Yeah, it's there's some risk. We're going to mitigate the risk. like like Talk to me about that key because i think I think it's so unique that you were one of the first ones to be able to bring it out and it was on ah in a legal firm when everybody else is losing their minds about it legally.
Tom Lott: i
Tom Lott: Yeah, you know, I think. um We were fortunate in that our CEO at BAL was very tech forward or is very tech forward. And so he was certainly supportive of it.
Tom Lott: We also had a CIO that was also very tech forward and was looking to implement AI and in a variety of different ways. So I guess from that perspective, it was easier probably than what it would have been normally in a normal law firm.
Tom Lott: Although I will say here at Kleindienst, we have a... We've rolled out an AI platform for our attorneys called StrongSuit, and it really helps our attorneys do great, faster work for our clients.
Tim Sackett: Yeah.
Tom Lott: But no, we did have to go through all the different compliance and governance you know hoops that you would normally have to go through at a law firm in order to get it in place.
Tom Lott: But we were fortunate in that we had some really great hiring manager understanding of what we were trying to do.
Tim Sackett: Madeline, you yeah you were talking um this week, you you did a webinar around some new data that you had in terms of like measuring TA success. do we Do you feel like with all these AI tools, like AI screening and stuff, like the the measurement side is going to change somewhat?
Madeline Laurano: Yeah, I mean, I think it has to. um You know, I think it's... It's already starting. um what We really looked at kind of like what... organizations have in place like their foundation before they're even investing in ai so it's like their data foundation like alignment conversations and communication that they need to have. um And there really aren't like success metrics around the foundational layer. Like it's like just, okay, we need to have transformation. We need to make change by technology.
Madeline Laurano: And.
Tim Sackett: Yeah.
Madeline Laurano: than that. fixes and and now you're going to measure success based on that but you haven't fixed the foundation you haven't really looked at kind of the verified data credibility of your data reliable data even before you've done that so how are you able to really measure that success so you know i think when we looked at this in this research it was like let's bring this back to the foundation of ta i mean it's even tom what we were talking about before we got on this call about you know what you were saying this human side like how do we think about What?
Madeline Laurano: foundation we need back to basics. and what those metrics look like before we just buy technology and then expect the technology to perform a certain way.
Tom Lott: Yeah, you know Madeline I agree 100 % and I also think that um And this is going to. probably be a hot take but i i think that in talent acquisition we talk way too much about filling jobs.
Tom Lott: and not enough about solving business problems. A requisition
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: Um... isn't necessarily the goal, right? The goal is what happens after the person is hired. Did they perform? Did they stay? Did they improve the organization? Did they become productive quicker than than the normal? Did they fit the culture? And so I think that you know having an ai tool or any tool for that matter whether it's a crm or an ats any type of tech tool.
Tom Lott: Is is really a means to an end, but I think as an industry We're so enamored with what's going on right now with AI that we've taken our eye off the ball a little bit in terms of the blocking and tackling and the basics, the recruiting 101, the human element of it.
Madeline Laurano: I know.
Tom Lott: and uh that's really important i think that that's where maybe the recruiting industry needs to take a step back and make sure that we're focused on the right things.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: Yeah, Tom, we we had – Madeline and I had interviewed steve Steve White over at The Gap. And I know you had listened to that pod as well. And it's one of the things that he kept saying is like – like ah How do we make money? it like If you understand how we make money...
Tim Sackett: the process of how we go out and attract talent. bring talent in, move them through the the journey. takes on a different kind of life and value. when you have that as an end goal versus going, oh, I'm just, here's a wreck. I have to fill a wreck with a warm body. you know
Madeline Laurano: Yep.
Tom Lott: Yeah. You know, one of the things I think that, yeah, I totally agree with Steve and Steve's a great guy. And I think that. you know from um an advice perspective to other recruiting leaders out there, I would just say, don't let your team become an order taker function, right?
Tom Lott: Don't let them get out of the mode of understanding the business. I mean, recruiters need to know the revenue of the business, the growth plan, what the turnover stats are.
Tom Lott: They need to have a toe or a foot or maybe an entire leg in workforce planning and overall business strategy and compensation and productivity metrics.
Madeline Laurano: Yep.
Tom Lott: I mean, when Recruiting leaders and recruiters understand the business. They stop saying, give me a requisition. They start saying, here's what I think the business needs. I mean, that's true leadership. and i think that's That's what Steve was trying to say, and I definitely agree with him.
Tim Sackett: Yeah.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah, it's it's It's really interesting. And I think... um you know with that kind of getting back to the basics like people don't ask recruiters enough like with AI coming in and all this new technology coming in, like, what do you want to?
Madeline Laurano: do and be with your job. like what What do you want to focus on? It's just this assumption that AI is going to come on come in, take on some of this administrative work, and then recruiters are going to have to do X, Y, and Z versus like, okay, what are you? What do you feel like your strength is? What do you feel like your skills are? that you want to focus on.
Tom Lott: Right. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And I think that, you know, we also. need to ensure that we're helping recruiters be great recruiters, not just good recruiters, and and focusing on you know what really...
Tom Lott: what what The traits that make a great recruiter like curiosity and emotional intelligence, business acumen, courage, and and follow through. When I'm out there hiring recruiters, that's what I look for, those five things. And and one trait.
Tom Lott: I think that recruiting leaders often overlook is that courage, right? A great recruiter has to be willing to tell a hiring manager. you know i don't think we're going to attract the person that you're looking for for that compensation or
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: I think we're losing good candidates because our process is too slow or I don't think this candidate's the right fit. You know, that's not order taking, that's leadership. But...
Tom Lott: I also think at the end of the day, we get too caught up in the periphery, right? Again, the latest tech, the latest CRM, and we forget the basics. When I talk to recruiters who are struggling, most often it's because they forget the basics, the blocking and tackling.
Tim Sackett: Yeah.
Madeline Laurano: Yep.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: Well, and Tom, I mean, obviously now with Incline Dents, you came in. Um, didn't necessarily just come in and say, hey, I'm just going to layer in a bunch of new technology. You kind of went back to the basics. to kind of like get some early wins there. Talk about what that looked like and, you know, maybe how you got them, you know, got that team refocused in on like, hey, here's what we need to do.
Tom Lott: Yeah, I think. um It was, you know... the This is a hungry, hungry law firm, right? And the legal industry is a really interesting in an interesting time right now. The labor market is kind of a bifurcated market where...
Tom Lott: the entry -level aspect, whether it's an attorney or a paralegal. is starting to really kind of catch up post -COVID where a lot of people didn't go back or didn't go into the industry.
Tom Lott: And on the other end of the spectrum, the more experienced folks, the the four to seven year to eight to 12 year attorneys and paralegals are really difficult to find.
Tom Lott: And so I think that the step 101 was really just ensuring that we understood or we helped the hiring managers understand what it is that they they need.
Madeline Laurano: you
Tom Lott: Right. I mean. they know what they don't want but they don't always know what they actually need so hiring managers, of course, whether it's hourly or whether it's an attorney.
Tom Lott: Sometimes they create this enormous wish list. We need someone with 10 years of experience, this certification, this industry background, these technical skills, etc. And then they wonder why the candidate pool is super tiny. So, you know, I think that the first thing that we had to do was separate the must -haves from the nice nice -to -haves and help those hiring managers really understand that because that was really the starting point before we could really start making a difference in recruiting.
Tim Sackett: Well, in your previous role, you saw this giant jump in in the hiring manager satisfaction, which I thought was super unique. and one of the things I think that you found out was that. If you have 50 people apply to a job.
Tim Sackett: And ah an experienced recruiter will go in, take a look and and knock out most of those without even ever really kind of spending more than 10 seconds on their resume, right? Where AI was going to give 100 % of the people at least a shot.
Tim Sackett: And then ultimately what you found was like, what you're saying is that maybe somebody that we just blew away because they didn't go to the right firm or the right school or the whatever. actually was a really great hire.
Tim Sackett: And if we just get them in front of the hiring manager and let them make the decision. then maybe they're going to see some people that they haven't seen previously. And all of a sudden now they're like, well, wait a minute. Why is there so many more qualified people?
Tim Sackett: that that we're seeing. And so I think that's super interesting because, so, I mean, And it also made is kind of goes back to like, even like this foundational data piece of like saying, forever.
Tim Sackett: We've gone through this process where maybe 10 % of the candidates got looked at. And 90 % didn't, but we're building all these success metrics on 10%. And all of a sudden now we have this ability to kind of automate.
Tim Sackett: use AI and get 100 % of the people into the pipeline. and it just I think it's going to blow up these success metrics in a new way. you know.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah. but if but if the foundation isn't there it puts an organization at greater risk then than not having that scale because if like you don't have good data and you don't have accurate candidate information um a recruiter manually is going to go in and have to do that work manually or miss something or kind of move someone along that they shouldn't.
Madeline Laurano: But when you have AI or an agent doing that. You're doing that at scale. with a lot of information that is not reliable at all.
Tim Sackett: Yeah.
Tom Lott: And you're doing it you're doing it faster. too right and i think that's part of the equation as to why our hiring manager satisfaction
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: Survey went up was because we were doing things so much faster than what we could have done had we been doing that manually.
Madeline Laurano: Yes.
Tom Lott: But, you know, I want to point out that even though we were utilizing Talent Llama 24 7 and we had all of a sudden, instead of nine to five, we had, you know, 24 hours to screen candidates and and and screen, to your point Tim, all 50 of them that apply rather than the top five.
Tom Lott: um we were still doing that human element after the fact. So when AI would screen all them and they would send us over the the top 10, we would still go through and screen those because we wanted to have that human intuition that AI hasn't caught up with yet.
Tim Sackett: Yeah.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: Yeah. But it allows that recruiter to get to like the best of, you know, the the best of the rest, right? Kind of thing faster.
Tom Lott: right
Tim Sackett: um from that standpoint which and again i also i just know that i mean we we we love to try to act like Somehow in recruiting in HR, we are unbiased. Right? We're the most unbiased people in the world. In reality, we have the exact same biases as everybody else. And so we tend to go through And like again, it's it's one thing to have 50 because I think a recruiter, a human recruiter can go through 50 and take a look at 50 and get it right most of the time.
Tim Sackett: When you have 500, 1 ,000, there's no possible way. Like they're still only going through 50. And so that's becomes. kind of problematic. Tom, you brought up the the concept of what you look for in a recruiter. And i've I've been having these conversations, it seems like a lot in the last two months with a lot of TA leaders.
Tim Sackett: um looking to hire recruiters. And for whatever reason, having a really a lot of false positive hires where they're hiring recruiters. that look amazing. um Interview amazing.
Tim Sackett: And then they show up and shit the bed. And they're just terrible, right? And so... And in some of this, there's to me, there's a commonality when I talk to these TA a leaders. They're like, Tim, like.
Tim Sackett: They worked at. ah meta and then they were they were at OpenAI i and then they were over here at this big company, you know, in like and it's like, but it's like. one One year and two months, nine months. 18 months and it's like and and But they're jumping.
Tim Sackett: And and they in their mind, that their explanation of jumping is, oh, well. I jumped from here to here because I thought it was a better opportunity. And then I went from here to here because I thought it was a better opportunity. And really it was just more money.
Tim Sackett: Because the role is exactly the same. no went From recruiter to recruiter to recruiter. And I'm wondering, like... if you're If you're a really good recruiter... Are companies really allowing you just to jump for another 10 grand or 25 grand or whatever that might be? I think it's, and I'm just, when you take a look at hiring recruiters.
Tim Sackett: I mean do you feel like there's a secret sauce that you have. I'm always interested in that because I just think, I still feel like it's a 50 -50 shot for me.
Tom Lott: send that to the instant
Tim Sackett: It's like a coin flip. you know.
Tom Lott: Yeah, that's interesting because I do think that. and And loyalty is an overused word in my opinion in in this. in this economy right now I think that people are uh Well, I will say I heard something the other day that I thought was really fascinating. they were talking I think I heard it on the radio. and They were talking about the idea of.
Tom Lott: going from the great resignation to the great rehire to the great hug. where people are starting to just hug their job right now because the economy is so...
Tim Sackett: Oh yeah.
Tom Lott: down and uncertain.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: um But I do think, you know... there There are certainly. not just recruiters, but everybody across the the the economy or are jumping ship for that next, you know, 25 cents or 50 cents an hour, whatever the case may be.
Tom Lott: When I'm looking for recruiters though, I really am looking for that intellectual curiosity, just to, I think you have to be intellectually curious in order to be a good recruiter, whether that's curious about the business or curious about you know somebody what makes somebody tick
Tim Sackett: Yeah.
Tom Lott: whatever the case may be. But I also look for work ethic, and that one's a little bit harder to uncover in an interview. I think, you know, you ask a lot of behavioral -based questions about their previous positions and ensuring that you can see traits of somebody that pushed through, somebody that has tenacity.
Tom Lott: One of the best books that I've ever read, I wish I had when my kids were young, is Angela Duckworth's Grit book, if you haven't read it.
Tim Sackett: Oh yeah. Yeah. I have that one.
Tom Lott: ask
Tim Sackett: Yeah.
Tom Lott: Yeah, it it's absolutely. Wonderful. And looking through that book and, uh, they, she actually has a grit, uh, Test that she has in the back of the book that you can order. I think you can get it off her website, too
Tom Lott: But you know understanding somebody that has grit, that has pushed through different scenarios and they' throughout their career really, to me, speaks to their work ethic. But I think you just generally speaking, looking for somebody that's intellectually curious and somebody that has that grit and work ethic. They're hard to uncover in an interview, but you can uncover it. And I think that's really what makes somebody be a great recruiter outside of what we already talked about.
Tim Sackett: Tom, Madeline and I are going to be at the Frontline Summit um for Paradox and Workday coming up and like in October. And so we're doing this big report. And Madeline just got data back on the employer side. I just got data back on the candidate side.
Tim Sackett: and And I just sent it to her last night. And one of the things, because one of the questions is like, for an hourly worker. what's the reason you would leave for another job? And we always want to say, oh, we just need to give them a better schedule and we need to have better managers treat them well. in ah I think it was, and again, we'll have the exact data out for for the um for the summit, but I think it was 84%, number one reason.
Tim Sackett: was more money.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: Simply more money. and When you're talking about someone who's making 18, 19, 20 dollars an hour 50 cents or a dollar is a lot.
Madeline Laurano: Yep.
Tim Sackett: Right? If you're making $300 ,000 a year. $10 ,000 isn't gonna get you to move. but like if you're making twenty dollars an hour one dollar will get you to move And so I think it's sometimes we have to be realistic around.
Tim Sackett: in those in those segments. Like we just have to know like, hey, you better be at market and you better be able to be competitive with your best workers. or you're not going to keep them no matter what you do. Right.
Tom Lott: Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. I think money is in this economy is certainly a driving factor. But interestingly enough, I do a lot of the exit interviews here. and Not that we have a ton of turnover. We really do a great job with that. but when we do have somebody leave money is a factor of course almost always but it's also
Tom Lott: Am I seeing, am I, am I. valued and you know they'll talk about things about how the CEO makes time to give me a call when I've had ah a great win in the case or you know if I've gone above and beyond in a particular file whatever the case may be you know somebody reaches out and says hey great job
Tom Lott: So I think that we can do those little things as employers and as recruiting leaders to ensure that people feel seen and people feel heard. And that goes a long way. Maybe that's not going to stop somebody from making a move for.
Tom Lott: additional money, but it certainly doesn't hurt to do that.
Tim Sackett: Madeline, we just talked about this yesterday.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: should Can you share the Chase story?
Madeline Laurano: Um. Wait, with the football?
Tim Sackett: And football. Yeah.
Madeline Laurano: oh yeah where he yeah so my son is a junior in high school and playing football for the very first time and never played football ever he's always on like track cross country sailing and um you know, went out for the football team. He's not going to play. There's just a varsity team, no JV.
Madeline Laurano: And he's, you know, with the team, part of the team, all summer trained with the team. and feels so part of it, even though he probably won't touch the football. and he you know went to the game was happy didn't touch the football didn't go out there and at the end the coach came up to him pulled him aside and said Jason just want to let you know we're so happy to have ah you on the team and you would have thought he made like five touchdowns he was so happy
Tom Lott: Let's do it.
Tom Lott: It goes a long way.
Madeline Laurano: It goes a long way.
Tom Lott: know It really does.
Madeline Laurano: Just feel like you're, yeah.
Tim Sackett: yeah you It goes back to, what you like, you to be seen.
Madeline Laurano: you're like Thank you very much.
Tim Sackett: Right.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: To say, hey, because that kid's going out to practice every day and he's busting his butt and he's basically being a punching bag for the starters.
Madeline Laurano: No.
Tom Lott: right
Madeline Laurano: yeah
Tim Sackett: And like the coach is like, hey, like, we're happy to have you on this team.
Madeline Laurano: Yep, yep.
Tim Sackett: Like, keep working hard, you know.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah. And take the time to even notice that.
Tom Lott: Yeah, that's all
Madeline Laurano: And it's, I don't know, it's a big deal. I mean, I think it even goes to that re -hug idea that you've been talking about too, because it's like, you want to just hug your job, but if you're seeing and you feel seen, you feel more secure.
Madeline Laurano: in your job too. Like you're like, okay, I am valued here. So I can. you know hug more, I don't know.
Tom Lott: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: Oh, matt Tom, magic you guys will love this. like I was on with a head of like a big healthcare system like a couple weeks ago. And he was talking to me about like, he was so excited. They did all this retention stuff and new program and their numbers are through the roof. And he's going into this big board meeting. He's going to share this. And I go.
Tim Sackett: Um... You know your retention is better but just because the economy is crap, right? And he's like, What?
Madeline Laurano: a
Tim Sackett: Hey. What?
Tom Lott: if
Tim Sackett: And I go, no, like, I mean, go ahead and share that stuff, but just know like next year if the economy turns around.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: And all of a sudden your retention goes to crap again. like Now you're going to have to own that. Your board is going to go, like what the hell happened? You said it was a fixed and and we were doing were doing amazing. you're like It's just kind of an economic factor. Retention goes down when the economy's bad. and retention goes or Retention goes up when economy's bad. Retention goes down when the economy's great because people have more choices. And it's just...
Tim Sackett: It's just an it's an economic kind of like movement. It doesn't mean that you still can't make you know an indent and do good things. But you better be careful about how much you wave that flag, you know.
Tom Lott: right
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: Yeah, that's true.
Madeline Laurano: Yep.
Tom Lott: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder how long this great hug is going to last. But, you know, we're feeling it in the legal industry. It's it's really. ultra ultra competitive right now I you know we'll have a candidate that we'll be talking to and we move incredibly fast in terms of our interview times and and offer times we usually will do interviews and offers in the same day but
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: um
Madeline Laurano: Wow.
Tom Lott: you know we have really felt this this pressure that you know if you don't do an interview and you and you love you love you interview tim you love tim and you don't make him an offer by the end of the day hey man tim's got another offer from a competing firm and it's going to be you know ten thousand dollars more or whatever the case may be you may lose out on them so
Tim Sackett: Madeline, do you think that's crazy? like We take a look at the like the survey data that we're starting to see. And we see hourly companies with hourly candidates that are taking days, weeks to make an offer, right?
Madeline Laurano: wait Please. Yeah, like they' like I forget the percentage, but it was like over a third of companies.
Tim Sackett: to...
Madeline Laurano: hourly. companies or that do hourly hiring taking over two weeks. to make an offer after the interview and to be able to do interview offer same day.
Tim Sackett: and In a white collar job, yeah.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: in a really professional job.
Tom Lott: Yeah. what
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: Recruiting is way too hard to make it harder. You know, you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot by taking a ah long time.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: So we're really fortunate here.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: We have got some great leaders that really understand that and get that.
Madeline Laurano: That's awesome.
Tim Sackett: Awesome. Tom we forgot to ask you our opening question that we ask everybody. So we're gonna end we'll end with it. which is in the front lines, we all had these jobs that we started with. What was your first job that was an hourly job?
Tom Lott: So. ah i was an entrepreneur you ready for this no i had a uh
Tim Sackett: Mowing lawns or shoveling snow?
Tom Lott: Come on, baby.
Madeline Laurano: Blowing lines! I love it.
Tom Lott: and the heat it In the heat of Texas. And it it was fierce, man.
Madeline Laurano: Yes.
Tom Lott: we had other people on other streets and other neighborhoods that were trying to encroach on our property, man.
Tim Sackett: oh
Tom Lott: we won We're happy. It was.
Madeline Laurano: wow
Tom Lott: It was war. that was my That was my first first job and ah it really taught me the the value of a buck and how to how how how hard it is to earn a buck.
Madeline Laurano: That's awesome.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Madeline Laurano: Did you do flyers or did you do referrals?
Tim Sackett: Yad.
Tom Lott: A lot of referrals, but we would go up and we would say, hey, we'll cut your grass for free.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: If you like it, then just continue on with our service. and
Tim Sackett: Nice.
Madeline Laurano: I love it.
Tom Lott: we we we We had.
Tim Sackett: That was early Tom Lott freemium model.
Madeline Laurano: This is brilliant.
Tom Lott: Let's go.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: Right. Yeah, it was a lot of fun, but man, it was hard work. But I tell you what, that paycheck was great. I loved it.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: I actually um was like thought I was going to do like the show like I was in Michigan, like I was going to shovel snow. But I only went to one house and it was a girl that I really liked. I wanted to try to get noticed. And I went out and knocked on the door and asked her mom if I could shovel their snow or whatever. And then afterwards, she invited me in for hot chocolate. So I was like, yes.
Madeline Laurano: <unk> so
Tom Lott: mar
Tim Sackett: Yeah.
Tom Lott: more red
Tim Sackett: I didn't even care if I got paid. It was just trying to get a date.
Tom Lott: but
Madeline Laurano: That's amazing. hu
Tim Sackett: All right, Tom, how how can everybody find you if they want to connect? What's the easiest way?
Tom Lott: Uh, just, just like everybody else, LinkedIn.
Tim Sackett: Perfect.
Tom Lott: I think I'm the only Tom Lott out there, so yeah.
Tim Sackett: Oh, that's that's great.
Madeline Laurano: hu
Tom Lott: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: Yeah.
Madeline Laurano: That is great. It's a great name too. That's surprising.
Tom Lott: Yeah. Thanks.
Tim Sackett: That's better than like when we had Steve White on in The Gap.
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tim Sackett: It's like there's a one 1 ,500 Steve White.
Tom Lott: ah i know
Madeline Laurano: everyone. Yeah.
Tom Lott: i
Madeline Laurano: Yeah.
Tom Lott: Poor guy.
Madeline Laurano: Just in San Francisco, yeah.
Tim Sackett: pick Okay. All right. Awesome. Thank you so much. From Madeline Arano, Tom Lott. I'm Tim. This is Frontlines. We want to thank Workday and Paradox for sponsoring this and letting us have this great conversation. And we will see everybody next time. Thank you so much for joining us.
Tom Lott: thanks guys
