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#12 Ramping Up: Unlocking the Value in EV Infrastructure Investment
31 Plays4 months ago
As electric vehicle (EV) adoption accelerates, questions remain around the pace, scale, and long-term commercial viability of the infrastructure needed to support it.
In this episode, part of our Ramping Up series, leaders from investment, banking, advisory and policy came together to examine how we can unlock scalable, investable EV charging infrastructure and what it will take to build a commercially sustainable network.
Hear expert perspectives on:
- Charging business models: Performance across AC and rapid charging, neighbourhood and en-route solutions, and how consumer and commercial demand is shifting.
- Public policy and regulation: How government and local authorities can help shape a viable market and support delivery at scale.
- Capital and funding: What investors and lenders are looking for, and how funding can be unlocked to support infrastructure rollout.
- Commercial risk and bankability: Managing operational and financial risks in a still-evolving market.
- Technology and innovation: The role of new tech in shaping viable models and enhancing future resilience.
Bringing together leaders from across the EV ecosystem, this discussion provides valuable insights into how commercial realities, policy frameworks, and innovation intersect to drive deployment – and where the most promising opportunities lie for future investment and impact.
- The question is not whether the transition will happen, but when. Despite that certainty, however, investment depends on greater predictability regarding where and when charging demand will emerge, the types of charging infrastructure drivers prefer, and what they are willing to pay.
- Investment appetite correlates with operating risk. To capitalise on this fast-growing sector, more efficient investment may require much closer focus on associated commercial risk.
- Create a customer-centric experience, and investability rests on the operator’s laser-like focus on the customer's EV charging experience.
www.steergroup.com
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Voices of the Industry' and EV Infrastructure Event
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Voices of the Industry, ah podcast series bringing you leading industry voices who challenge thinking across transportation, infrastructure and cities.
00:00:27
Speaker
The following podcast is a recording of our panel event, Unlocking the Value in EV Infrastructure Investment, part of our Ramping Up series, which took place in Stier's London headquarters in May 2025.
Electrification of Road Transport: UK and EU Policies
00:00:42
Speaker
Good afternoon and welcome to this, the second of our ramping up series, looking at the electrification of road transport, both here in the UK and across Europe.
00:00:53
Speaker
We're going to spend about 40 minutes, I think, on ah little panel discussion of of some of the topics um that are certainly circulating around the investability of electric vehicle charging resources I'm Alex Georgiana.
00:01:08
Speaker
I'm an associate director here at STEER, and I lead our practice in the development and funding of EV charging resources, which is a word I'm now using on purpose these days.
00:01:22
Speaker
We are now crossing an inflection point. after which the uptake of electric vehicles will be much faster than anything we've ever seen before.
00:01:32
Speaker
The UK's ZEV mandate and the EU CAFE regulation are going to compel predictably increasing penetration of new car sales.
00:01:45
Speaker
leading to a total ban on anything but zero emission vehicles
Reflections on EV Market Progress in UK, France, and Germany
00:01:50
Speaker
by 2035. Now that's not something that, that anyone in this room isn't aware of. um And we're looking at perhaps 90 percent penetration in electric vehicles of our road stock by 2050.
00:02:04
Speaker
In considering this inflection point, I think it's rational to ask the question, how are we doing? How did we do in 2024? Well, here in the UK, we did very well, although we didn't quite make the 22 percent ah trajectory in the ZEV mandate.
00:02:20
Speaker
Government will consider this a success in that they had no cause to to penalize any of the manufacturers for lack of pushing electric vehicles into their offer this year. Across France and Germany, the story is a bit more mixed, particularly in Germany.
00:02:36
Speaker
where a reduction in their EV grant and an abrupt termination of that grant at the end of 2023 really impacted uptake of electric vehicles in 2024. So as we look forward to 2025...
00:02:51
Speaker
What should we expect to see? Well, the battleground is moving a bit from the UK out to the rest of the EU. The ZEV mandate came into force last year. The CAFE regulations will come into force this year.
00:03:03
Speaker
And although they're calculated somewhat differently, we should be looking towards about 25-ish percent penetration of new car sales across all of Europe and the UK this year.
Investment Needs for EV Infrastructure: $80 Billion by 2035?
00:03:16
Speaker
As we look towards the next 10 years, this inflection point really becomes important. That rapid expansion of the battery electric car park drives demand for charging and demand for the investment that's going to build those resources to deliver that charging.
00:03:36
Speaker
So here this afternoon, we've carved out a quiet moment to think about how is this going to come together? we've We've calculated that we're probably looking in Europe at an additional $40 billion in investment required by 2030 and another $40 billion in the five years thereafter.
00:03:55
Speaker
So we ask the question, where is this capital going to come from and how is the industry going to evolve to attract that capital to commercially viable ventures?
00:04:09
Speaker
Fortunately, we have a panel today of four individuals who are far better equipped than I to comment here and willing to give up part of their ah Monday afternoon. Please welcome David
What Drives the Investability of EV Charging Resources?
00:04:20
Speaker
Scribner.
00:04:20
Speaker
David is a partner with Cameron Barney Herbst-Hilgenfelt. Priya Verappen is the managing director of InfraCapital, a European infrastructure investment firm. Dr. Giulia Cavalli.
00:04:32
Speaker
He's a head of asset strategy in the global structured finance department of SMBC. And Vicki Reed is CFO of Chart CEO, sorry, of, she just got a promotion, of Charge UK, which is the representative organization of CPOs here in the UK.
00:04:51
Speaker
I wonder if we could jump in. I think what we're going to do is have sort of three broad questions, and I might ask each of you to sort of color our total response to that question, if I may. And we're going to start off with kind of the $64,000 question, although that number is probably not right, and really talk about what drives the investability of EV charging.
00:05:11
Speaker
and And David, again, i I might just start with you and and come back down here. You've done several mandates, both buy and sell side for EV charging and energy and broader
Investor Insights: Market Demand and Timing in EV Charging
00:05:22
Speaker
energy transition. You have a nice kind of perspective on those different aspects.
00:05:26
Speaker
I wondered if you could just talk a bit about The investors in these deals that you're working on, how do they look at the investability of these ventures? And is it different between various aspects of energy? Maybe not.
00:05:40
Speaker
I think it's changed over time is probably the place to start because Priya is mentioning made an investment and a number of years ago into sort of the Nordic EV charging space, which is obviously ahead of the rest of Europe, and then followed that on with GridServe.
00:05:55
Speaker
I think that investors are sort of, they understand that this derived or docked electric vehicles is coming and that's not really going to slow down. So 10 years from now, I think people understand that if not everyone in this room already drives an electric car, I think this is probably not a good population set in terms of with EV drivers. But if not everyone in this room has EVs today, 10 years from now, we think that almost everyone will. And that would sort of go well beyond the walls of this room. So That market demand is there and it's going to come.
00:06:27
Speaker
I think where investors tend to struggle in the space, especially at the moment, is when is that demand going to come? ah When is Chris going to show up and charge his car? How do you predict that demand?
00:06:39
Speaker
And we're seeing different sub-segments within EV charging with probably at the moment a lot of interest in what are the fleets doing? How do you sort of get into the sort of fleet revenue stream where you have slightly larger vehicles that are charging on a daily basis and repeatable routes?
00:06:58
Speaker
So I think it's complicated. it's It's not sort of how do you fund EV charging in Europe? It's how do you fund this specific use case of EV charging? What's a suitable investor for that?
00:07:09
Speaker
And they can range from venture capital to private equity and infrastructure to pension funds. So it's a complex question, but I'll park it there for a minute and have to sort of add a bit more as we sort of go on, if that makes sense. You'll have all the opportunity.
00:07:21
Speaker
Thanks. Priya, I wonder if I could ask you kind of the same question. You know, what impacts the investability of EV charging?
Cycles of Investment Interest and Public Policy Impact
00:07:28
Speaker
and And we were talking earlier about about sort of public policy, public programs. How does that have an impact as well?
00:07:34
Speaker
yeah um I wonder if that's relevant to you. There's quite a lot to unpack. that's fine Let's start with a question yeah no that start with, I guess, the cycle. Because I think clearly we've been through a bit of a cycle over the last five years or so in terms of investability in the sector where there there was a sort of peak of capital flow and valuations attaching to that, which was brief, and then maybe a falling away ah of of that capital in interest as it became clearer that you know maybe the adoption rates when were not as predictable, not as finessable as typical infrastructure investors would like them to be.
00:08:14
Speaker
And I feel like we're maybe emerging from the other end of that spectrum as we, to your point about inflection, see that actually this trend is is not reversible.
00:08:26
Speaker
And there are going to be some some winners in this space and and those winners will attract sort of the the bigger pools of capital and the lower cost pools of capital.
00:08:38
Speaker
And I guess what what is then going to drive where that goes? and think you know scale is going to be quite important in in this market. And I guess I think we'll start to see some of that activity.
00:08:50
Speaker
Path to profitability or actual profitability is key. So people are looking for you know What is the route? What am I going to have to do to achieve a profitable business? And some CPOs are sort of touching up against that already.
00:09:03
Speaker
ah But if you can't demonstrate how that's going to happen, then you know it's going to be more difficult. And I think this is where you your point about what public sector support does, what it what it can do is provide downside resilience in terms of products that say, you know, I'll support your usage, I will support your cost base, I will make it easier for you to get from through the development cycle, through grid planning, all of those things.
00:09:33
Speaker
But it can also address the the demand side and the adoption cycle by saying, a a let's be consistent about what we're saying, that gives the market the right signals.
00:09:44
Speaker
Let's try and stimulate demand to the best of our ability. And I do think that the current government has clearly helpful intent, whether it has helpful action yet is is probably but the the missing piece that um at the moment.
00:09:59
Speaker
So yeah, a lot of a confluence of of all those things that come together and clearly you have to have a good product as well. And I'll stop there. Thanks very much. Julie, it's sort of the same question to you. And and one of the thoughts I had is SMBC, of course, is walking working across Europe.
00:10:14
Speaker
So maybe you can even comment on different asset classes that may have similarities, but but ultimately the same question, really. What drives the investability or the bankability of these ventures?
Base Case Assumptions and Bankability in EV Sector
00:10:25
Speaker
mean, bankability is what David and Priya outlined. It's pretty much for ah lender, the base case and the assumptions and the growth perspective and how quickly the assumptions of the base case are materializing.
00:10:37
Speaker
And I think at the beginning, everyone was quite lot bullish in itself, but I think we expected the growth to be much faster than materialized. So I think there was a lot of rethinking of what is the right base case. And that's where also policy comes into play.
00:10:51
Speaker
So I think we saw a big drop is when the first announcement was of a delay in EV rollout, where suddenly the initial expectations of how fast we will see EV cars growing had a huge impact.
00:11:04
Speaker
I think that's really crucial to see the base case and making good assumptions. Well, then plays into role into play is is also the size. So what is a good size of a company that is investing it? So you can't just do rollout a couple of these.
00:11:20
Speaker
charging stations, it needs to be a proper size to really make sense. And we see quite a few really good ideas, but too small in itself. And because they're so small, it's very difficult to really predict when they would actually start making money and therefore able to repay.
00:11:37
Speaker
I think one of the good things in the sector is when we initially started looking at it, a big concern internally from credit and management was technology risk. And this actually has pretty much fallen away, which is a good thing for the sector, because initially there was a lot of concern.
00:11:53
Speaker
Will these cars or will the battery really last for the tenner of the loan or of of the agreements that are in place, which is quite rare in other sectors. We worry, I feel, much more about technology. So this is one of the issues that has not fallen away as such, but it's not the biggest focus anymore.
00:12:12
Speaker
What we have seen is lots of different things. ideas of how to finance it. And what is a hugely important element is really what other revenue stream is there if the EVs are not coming?
00:12:24
Speaker
So if the charging is not there, what is there else? And we see other transactions where You have a former petrol station having still the revenue income from the petrol, but at the same time installing EVs.
00:12:37
Speaker
So if you don't have the income from the EVs, you still have some other revenue streams. And I think these elements really help to build a case and therefore the financiability. Vicki, the question is is a little bit different to you, isn't it?
00:12:49
Speaker
Not a lender, not an investor, but but representing these CPOs who are out there seeking capital grow. I wondered if you could comment a bit on on what the CPO's experiences have been and raising capital and sort of where we're going with that, particularly with a huge chunk of Levi stuff coming out the next year and then then continuing growth thereafter.
Policy Clarity: Challenges and Importance for Investment
00:13:10
Speaker
I've said in my opening comments that I've worked in lots of different sectors and and and this is probably the the sector where actually that clarity around the public policy environment is the most important. I think for for three reasons really. we I think as you've always said, it's not a question of if this happens, this transition, it's it's it's going to happen. but i think For charging, it's important because we need to have that charging infrastructure before the cars are there. And that's that's tricky.
00:13:31
Speaker
And that means that we have to take ah risk. We want to take a risk knowing the kind of the basis of that risk. And that's why things like the ZEV mandate has been so important. So we can't we can't you know we can't be at the same pace as EVs coming on. We can't be behind them. We have to be ahead.
00:13:44
Speaker
I think the other thing is, you know there's obviously a a wider policy challenge here, which is we're we're trying to do this transition, not so not just because these are great cars and they're nice to drive, but because there's a ah kind of climate reason. So we can't take our time. there is ah There's ah there's ah a pace at which we need to go. And so the government does need to kind of intervene to kind try and push.
00:14:01
Speaker
And also it has to be equitable. So it's not good enough to just, I think, let charging roll out where perhaps it's most obvious that at this point in the market has to be more equitable. That's where Levi comes in as well. So Policy has a particularly important role.
00:14:14
Speaker
I think from it reassures me that some of the things you've been saying here is what I've been hearing from our members as well. So at least i' I've been reporting the correct things, which I think it's quite simple, which they want certainty. They want to know where they're going. if Everyone is taking an educated bet or a guess or a risk. It needs to be as much information as possible to make that that that bet correctly.
00:14:32
Speaker
So I think it starts from the very top, which is, as you said, Priya, does this government want this to help? I think we're okay there. We're fine. ah There have been some wobbles along the way, but I think, you know, recently, again, the the government said, yes, we want this phase out to be 2030 with 2035 and the end of all hybrids. that That's great, I think. And then beneath that, you're looking for, you know, things to try and help you.
00:14:52
Speaker
to give you more confidence. So actually, great, we're going to we know when the end date is. Well, how are we going to get there? How many cars need to be sold at each different point? I think we're a little bit wobblier there and we're working on it. And then, you know, you're down to the kind of more sort of, I guess, the hygiene factors, which is that the irritants around grid and planning and those sorts of things.
00:15:09
Speaker
And you have to sort of work from top to bottom. If if if the will is not there and we've got a big problem, if the confidence is not there, again, you're going to hesitate. And once you've got those things in place, then you need to remove the barriers.
00:15:21
Speaker
I think we're you know we're lucky as u get in this country, in the UK, that we're in situation that first question is settled. i think there's some work to do on on the second too. And that's what my members have been saying to us about they want us to work on.
00:15:33
Speaker
so much for that insight. The second question I wanted to talk about is, this is an evolving industry.
Defining EV Charging Infrastructure and Operational Optimization
00:15:39
Speaker
and And what do we think eventually the most efficient structure will be for not just funding these sort of ventures, but how will the operations of these ventures be sorted? And we've talked a little bit about, there's a whole bunch of different options and a whole bunch of different demand types that we're talking about specifically.
00:15:57
Speaker
But David, wondered, we had talked on the phone the other day and you had talked about infrastructure. And is this infrastructure? and it And it left me going home that night sort of scratching my head and said, I think that's an interesting question that needs to be explored a bit more.
00:16:11
Speaker
Would you mind picking that up? Yeah, sure. It might not be a popular topic in this room, to be honest, looking around. But I think when you think of what is infrastructure, and Priya will know this better than I will, so I'm not going to try and lecture too many people on this, but I think elements of EV charging have infrastructure elements to them.
00:16:30
Speaker
Depending on the use case, some are lean themselves better towards infrastructure investors and others less so. I think really it won't become, it won't be sort of, um surprising to hear this. I think the sort of, what is the sort of offtake, if you like, that's the sort of biggest risk factor in terms of the EV infrastructure installation. So the point where when does Chris show up to charge his car, that's the sort of biggest risk and the one that sort of misaligns the most with infrastructure investors.
00:17:02
Speaker
But that would be sort of taking a very sort of high level view saying, okay, 30,000 foot view. I don't know when Chris is going to charge his car, so I can't invest in this because I don't know what the demand is. But when you actually dig down into it and just sort of more niche sectors and even regions and locations, everything looks a lot different.
00:17:21
Speaker
So is it infrastructure? i think it can be. i think a lot of it struggles to be, though, as well. And it it depends on sort of charging demands. And I think we're we're getting more data. So that's helpful in some regards. I think three years ago was much easier saying, OK, EV cars are coming, adoption's more or less on track.
00:17:41
Speaker
We need these many chargers to sort of service this car fleet. And we think the utilization curve looks like this. And a bunch of business models got funded on that basis. We funded a lot of businesses on that basis with investors as well.
00:17:54
Speaker
And what we were hoping was when we get more data, this is going to be easier. And what we actually found is as we get more data, this is actually a lot more complicated and the sector is super, super complex.
00:18:06
Speaker
And you'd be seeing sort of behavior at one type of charging station that you wouldn't expect. And then you get a really good outcome somewhere else. And you're trying to kind of chew through the data to understand where this sort of offtake is coming from. And actually having more data has proven to be probably more difficult to convince infrastructure investors that across the spectrum, it is infrastructure.
00:18:30
Speaker
Where you have high traffic areas and you have limited availability for sites, that one probably lends itself to infrastructure. So let Priya talk about one of her investments, maybe, which she probably feels like is infrastructure.
00:18:45
Speaker
Where people are going to charge naturally is either going to be where they wake up or where they go to bed, or if they need to, out on the road. So when you think of a couple of companies that I see represented in this room, not everybody has a driveway. So if you're parking near your house and you need to charge your car,
00:19:06
Speaker
That could be infrastructure. We're seeing the sort of hotel segment, I think, being interesting. The challenge there is you're you're typically using slower chargers and you need a lot of slower chargers to generate a sufficient return to kind of have sufficient scale.
00:19:21
Speaker
so I think it's complicated, I would say. i think infrastructure investors are intrigued by the sector. Some have already deployed into the sector. And now it's a sort of which models are working, which ones aren't, and how do we sort of improve from here? And then Prius' earlier point, okay, now this model works, we have to scale it, and that's where the capital is going to chase.
00:19:43
Speaker
On one of these slides, there's a comment that we're all in the business of anticipating where, when, and how drivers are going to choose, ultimately, to charge their vehicles. And I had never thought about that comment in terms of, is this infrastructure or not?
00:19:57
Speaker
know Does this model appeal to this investor or to that investor? I think that's interesting. Thanks. Priya? Priya? Yeah, I mean, I think we agree broadly with with David and in so far as you clearly were not in the world of a regulated asset base, know utility or heavily contracted PPP environment.
Infrastructure Characteristics: Predictability and Capital Intensity
00:20:17
Speaker
We're not in that environment, obviously.
00:20:20
Speaker
So I think from our perspective, we try and sort of slice the w risk profile to identify what are the things that you can pin down and identify as infrastructure and what are the elements of that. So predictability of demand we've we've already talked about and the high traffic turning in rate environments where you know you have to stop clearly are ones where you you you have a better sense of what that volume is going to look like.
00:20:47
Speaker
The other aspect that you know we sort of heard about is is barriers to entry around capital cost. sort of capital intensity is another feature, obviously, of infrastructure projects and and where you have a need for high power charging, ultra rapid HBC, et cetera.
00:21:04
Speaker
that capital but bar is higher. So once you've established your your presence, then you know in terms of defensive moat, be it en route or otherwise, that HBC market, from our perspective, would be to sort of demonstrate more of those infrastructure characteristics. That's not to say that other models can't be good businesses, but are they ah do they qualify as your infrastructure box or not? you know that That's one of the elements of it.
00:21:29
Speaker
So And I think I'd agree. So that on at home, en route are the two areas where you can see that use case more clearly. that The in-between, I think, is everybody sort of feels there is a place for it, but we don't exactly know how that's going to pan out. When are people going to charge at Sainsbury's versus charging at David Lloyd? it's It's hard to call that one now.
00:21:52
Speaker
But again, not to say that they won't be successful businesses. Julia, it's sort of the same question to you, but really from a banking perspective, it might be somewhat of a different answer, actually. Not sure it's so different to what David and Priya said. I think it, first of all, depends how do you define the infrastructure. There are already tons of definitions of infrastructure out there.
00:22:12
Speaker
And I guess each the bank might also put it internally into a different sector. So some put it and keep it in infrastructure. Others might keep it in a different section. For us, it sits in the infrastructure, in the structure finance department.
00:22:26
Speaker
And it then really depends on the structure of the transaction itself. But it's not, I mean, I must say EV charging in the sense of how do you define it is not different. So, and and I mentioned it earlier, I think to you, student accommodation.
00:22:40
Speaker
Some put it in infrastructures, other put it more into real estate. It really depends how but how you look at it these things and how it is structured. Most structures that we have looked at these days and we have funded to date are having more infrastructure elements to it.
00:22:55
Speaker
And some of them have very strong and elements. is If I look at the Deutschlandnets in Germany, very heavily, pretty much looking more into ah regular really frameworks and subsidies on these elements.
00:23:07
Speaker
And others is really purely volume risk. And there, as we heard, it depends. You just don't know. there You can have very good predictions. But then what lenders will do is building into their base case and into the structure certain draw stops or other elements to make sure that we're not just,
00:23:25
Speaker
lending, ah but we are actually seeing the progress or similar to really make it in a bit more probably what ah we would see then as infrastructure. So Vicky, in your manifesto, the attraction of private capital is one of the big themes.
00:23:39
Speaker
I wonder if you could just expand on that for us a bit.
Attracting Private Capital: Government's Role and Initiatives
00:23:42
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, um I'm going to sort of answer, I guess, the question in a slightly different way and come back to yours, which is one of the big questions I talked about earlier. This is really important for it for government and they need they know they have to have a role.
00:23:52
Speaker
But the question is, where they need to get directly involved and where do they need to turn to private capital? I think, you know, when Charge UK launched ah two years ago, we launched with a commitment of £6 billion pounds between our then 20 members we threw to through to 2030. We're now at 42 members, so I suspect that number's higher, but that number gets higher.
00:24:08
Speaker
used repeatedly um in political circles to so to prove there's a very high appetite for investing for private investors in this space. So a lot of the discussions we have with government is about what what can you do to either encourage that investment in or at least remove the barriers which are inhibiting it from from progressing and where do they need to get involved directly? I guess I mentioned Levi earlier, there's also another fund which is called the Rapid Charging Fund which hasn't made as much progress but We spend a lot of time thinking, well, how do we focus government to to look at where they get directly involved? And that's really quite difficult, I think, at this very fast-moving early stage of the market. where Where do you put money in a way which actually makes a difference, but it also doesn't trip up the private investment that's coming in?
00:24:44
Speaker
I think we can probably talk in some detail about whether Levi and Arsene have succeeded or not. so for the most part, actually, we talk about you know attracting investment from overseas. you know we're We're competing with other countries. We talked about France and Germany. you know we've We've got to try and attract investment so into this country and also away from different sorts of asset classes as well. So I think this government, and and also the last one, understands that. Whether, again, they always stick to what their beliefs are and and follow through, I don't know.
00:25:09
Speaker
i think some of the messaging around the ZEV mandate recently, which is the quotas you mentioned, are a little bit mixed. I think, again, that end goal is there. But a little bit of work to do to make sure that private investment is really confident enough to follow through. So I think government itself is still trying to work out what role it has to play. And and we're trying to shape that ah decision.
00:25:27
Speaker
I just wanted to kind of close. we've We've gone through actually greater depths than I expected. So so thank you for that. But I wondered if I could just ask you to sort of close up here with some sense of of what's the biggest um obstacle that you see and And what can be done to address that obstacle?
Obstacles to EV Investment and Potential Solutions
00:25:45
Speaker
I'm sorry, I keep asking you big, broad questions.
00:25:48
Speaker
I hope you don't mind. a good question. I'm going to start on the positive side. So I think, sort of as we started, the market here is coming and the need for this infrastructure is certain.
00:26:00
Speaker
It's the timing of when that infrastructure needs to be put into the ground, which is uncertain. There's obviously regulations that are pushing, trying to push that forward. I think maybe to Prius point, supportive government check actions that are actually driving this to move faster.
00:26:18
Speaker
That's probably what we need to see more of Having stability around the sort of regulations that are put being put out there as well. So not sort of moving things back and forth and back and forth. That's obviously unhelpful.
00:26:32
Speaker
And I think what's going to attract the next probably large amount of capital into the sector is How do you unlock, and I said this earlier, in terms of the fleets?
00:26:45
Speaker
So it could be fleets of NHS vehicles. It could be fleets of Royal Mail. Obviously, all of the large corporates in the UK and Europe as well. How does that electric vehicle charging infrastructure get funded? Who's funding it?
00:27:02
Speaker
And is that going to happen at the sort of public access level or depot level or some combination of the two? I think that's probably the biggest opportunity for the sector. And everyone's thinking about how they can get their sort of hands on it, if you like, in terms of that predictable demand. That's probably going to drive the the largest amount of infrastructure investment into the sector of the next sort of two to three years.
00:27:24
Speaker
But I think ultimately seeing some supportive action from the government to sort of try to accelerate the the adoption of EVs, both on the the individual side, which I think actually it's hard to push a single individual family to sort of adopt an EV and have that have massive scale. But if you are sort of pushing it on the sort of more on the company side, when they're sort of running multi-thousand unit fleets, that can have a larger impact.
00:27:53
Speaker
It's not really a well-framed answer, but that's sort of where I think the sort of infrastructure money is going to come from and where the government pressure could probably accelerate a little bit. That time tomorrow morning, I've got to go talk to the Fleet 200 to talk to them really about shrinking diesel availability and what pushes their ability to electrify. And a lot of that is around charging infrastructure.
00:28:15
Speaker
A lot of it is also around the cost of the vehicle. Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah. So I guess one way of thinking about it is is that if if you remove the barriers to execution and you remove the barriers to adoption, then then the barriers to investment will also naturally fall away, I'd probably say. So So what are the barriers to execution?
00:28:37
Speaker
We've talked about permitting, planning, grid. Clearly, those things are a very hackneyed almost, but but they are true. They are still barriers to to getting things done and getting them done quickly. I think there are some low-hanging fruit like signage that could be addressed easily, hasn't yet been addressed, and and that would make a ah big difference to to the industry.
00:28:59
Speaker
ah you know even Even more guidance and data around where do you want the charges to go, where is the adoption. and then And then driving the adoption, I think David's touched on, you know, there there are plenty of measures that can be taken to stimulate demand that vary wildly. But ultimately, if the industry can see some clearer path on adoption, then it will be more confident to invest.
00:29:22
Speaker
So I think it's sort of trying to take down the individual pieces one by one and then ultimately unlocks the whole.
Government Support: Addressing Barriers to EV Adoption
00:29:30
Speaker
Does this inflection point concept make sense? Is it important?
00:29:34
Speaker
You know, what do we think about 2025 ZEV mandate for 26%? Is that a sort of a meaningful goalpost? Does that tell us something? I think it's still a hypothesis, isn't it?
00:29:45
Speaker
and And that's the issue. It's it's yeah it's always trending in that direction, but something could change. tomorrow that that sends us in it in a different course. Ultimately, we're all probably ending up at the same place.
00:29:57
Speaker
but But that kind of what happens year on year is quite influential for the amount of usage that CPOs actually get and therefore the amount of capital they have to invest. Thanks for that.
00:30:09
Speaker
Julie, it's sort of the same question. Biggest obstacles and how do we fix them? I think just to add on the point that Priya made, the permitting and and and and really the getting the grid or the infrastructure into the ground has been really an obstacle for quite a few, ah which therefore then stops the speed of rolling out.
00:30:29
Speaker
I think that's one obstacle. And I think one of them where probably political support could come in is what we discussed quite earlier as a base case. So what if we don't have the base case and therefore lenders...
00:30:41
Speaker
have in their documentation to stop the funding, which then obviously is like a vicious circle because then you can't continue with your rollout and create the revenue stream that you want. to So if there was something which for whatever reason, the rollout is not as it would be if there was some support in some type of grants or other ways, which then helps bridging until we are back to the stage where the base case was and the funds flow, that might be something to overcome.
00:31:08
Speaker
Thanks. And Vicki, I wonder if I can finish up with you here. Just before we started, I'd made a ah dumb comment. I had said that um that I thought the public consultation around the ZEV mandate hadn't hadn't changed things too much, acknowledging that there are new flexibilities. And I think you told me quite clearly that I should think about that a bit more.
00:31:27
Speaker
oh I mean, this is this is the job so this is this is this is the problem with regulations and politics, which is it's all very complicated and nuanced. I think the end goal is now set. And actually, that wasn't to be taken for granted. If you look at different countries, ah some I won't necessarily name, but where things have changed quite a lot since January this year, where the kind of the the wider mood music isn't is no longer so you know the same as it was before,
00:31:48
Speaker
That's now set. So I think we all know where we're going. I think the route to get there is more meandering, we perhaps thought you know several months ago, because the government has given the car industry more more options, more power to to make its own way there. And I think that's what it was asking for.
00:32:01
Speaker
From our point of view, from a charging infrastructure point of view, that makes the road a little more difficult to see. And I guess, know bringing back the different things here, you asked about obstacles and inflection points. I don't think we're quite...
00:32:13
Speaker
For me, the inflection point is at what point does the government need to stop pushing and the the the the general public starts pulling and there's a natural but momentum ah taking on. We don't have to worry about where the demand is. It's just coming at us thick and fast. I don't think we're quite there yet. so The government can't stop pushing.
00:32:27
Speaker
I think that the sooner we can get there, the better, because ah it it takes us away from the vagaries and difficulties of politics, which is changeable. and We don't want change in this long-term investment situation. so I guess our message to the government right now is, again, can we remove those barriers to individuals, to companies making their own decision?
00:32:44
Speaker
And they are ah mainly around affordability of of of the vehicles themselves and also of charging. you know We've mentioned the AT, I'm sure, standing charges, other things that make it difficult to offer affordable charging. Take those barriers away and off we go because it's a great product. It makes sense.
00:33:00
Speaker
And then we haven't got to worry about what does it deserve mandate, say 28 or 30. It's going to take ah care of its itself, but we're not quite there yet. can't ignore the fact that CPOs themselves have a role to play here in terms of making the customer experience a positive one because you know that that does translate to to adoption. And and if if the kind of rate of success and the ambience of your charging environment and all of those things don't stack up for the user, then they're not going to use it.
00:33:27
Speaker
So I think that there is that element of it, that incumbent and of all of us to to to address that side of the equation. Thanks so much. Pri, I know at the beginning I said like I don't have the attention span to do this for much more than 45 minutes, but I've been riveted. This has been this has been really terrific.