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BONUS: Fruitful Gospel Conversations about Race with Charaia Calabrass
204 Plays4 years ago
Fruitful, Gospel Conversations about Race Join Charaia Callabrass as we discuss understanding Black culture, CRT, how to navigate triggering terms for conservatives, and whether “just preach the gospel” is the best response to the issue of racism. Audio note: This episode was originally recorded on Instagram Live.
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Transcript
Introduction to Verity Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Verity. I'm your host, Felicia Masonheimer, an author, speaker, and Bible teacher. This podcast will help you embrace the history and depth of the Christian faith, ask questions, seek answers, and devote yourself to becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. You don't have to settle for watered down Christian teaching. And if you're ready to go deeper, God is just as ready to take you there. This is Verity, where every woman is a theologian.
Discussing Race with Sharaiah Calabras
00:00:30
Speaker
Well hi friends and welcome. I'm Felicia Mason-Heimer with Every Woman a Theologian and tonight in our Wednesday IGTV interview series I'm welcoming Sharaiah Calabras from Coco Gospels who's going to be joining us and talking about cultivating fruitful conversations about race and she's already here.
00:00:52
Speaker
And I'm going to hop in here in just a second. I think you guys are going to love meeting her. I have loved following her and learning from her regarding how to have these conversations in a fruitful way. And I think you're going to love learning from her. So once she joins and Sharaya, if you can't see it, it's up at the top in the title, you can request to join the video there. There she is. And we'll get started.
00:01:19
Speaker
Hi, how are you doing? I'm great. How are you? Good. I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you for having me. I'm so honored to be here. Well, I know that I have enjoyed following you and the way that you break down really complicated topics, to be honest.
00:01:38
Speaker
especially about being a black Christian woman in America and what that looks like in conversations we have online and in real life. And so I'm excited to get some of your input on this tonight and the time we have together. So before we get into my questions, why don't you tell us a little bit about you, your family and what you
Challenges of Discussing Race Online
00:02:00
Speaker
do? Okay. So I have
00:02:02
Speaker
two kiddos. I have a three-year-old and a eight-month-old, and my husband and I have been married for almost five years. He's in the military, so we're stationed in Georgia, which is where we are. I'm originally from Colorado. Right now, I'm a stay-at-home mom, which is new for me. I've worked for my whole life, so I've been stay-at-home mom for the last year, and I just write. That's my passion. That's my love. And so, yeah, I spend a lot of time on the internet.
00:02:32
Speaker
So you get it, you know. I know you produce a lot of great content on Instagram, but do you have a blog as well? So I used to, I have trouble with consistency, but I'm relaunching my blog here in the next couple of weeks. And then I'm also relaunching my podcast, which I had way back in the day. So those are the main projects that I'm working on, just to kind of take that content and dive into a little bit more for people who want to have those conversations in a longer, larger format.
00:03:01
Speaker
Awesome. That's exciting. We will have to look for that.
Addressing Critical Race Theory
00:03:06
Speaker
So obviously, I think that just in having you be willing to come and have this conversation, I want to thank you for that because I know that you get a lot of pushback on your own account just for engaging in this space, which we know this is a controversial topic in general within the church and within the political sphere, within America in general.
00:03:31
Speaker
So obviously you have a level of courage to be engaging with this every single day on your platform. And so I am grateful that you would come and do that here. And we, in our like behind the scenes when Sharae and I were kind of playing this out, we knew that to talk about having fruitful conversations about race and racism in America, we're going to have to kind of get the elephant in the room out of the way at the beginning.
00:04:01
Speaker
which is critical race theory. Because to even have a conversation right now about these things, it kind of feels like sometimes critical race theory is that looming, like, like, phrase and idea that until that is dealt with, you cannot have any kind of a conversation. Or sometimes it's kept as the elephant in the room so that no conversation can take place. Exactly.
00:04:30
Speaker
I know from following you that you are a strong believer, you're gospel-centered, you want the gospel to go forth. And so that's no question here, you're Bible-based. So knowing that, how do we talk about critical race theory at the beginning of this so that we can move forward in the question about the right discussion?
00:04:57
Speaker
So I think critical race theory, I want to be careful because I know that we're all trying to navigate through these really tough conversations the best way that we know how to. And I think there's some of us, you know, for a lot of the black Christians, I don't want to speak for every black Christian. So let me just say that up front, that we are not a monolith. Like I am just speaking for me and, you know, my community that I'm involved in. But I do believe that.
00:05:20
Speaker
Critical race theory is a very complex system. It's a very complex idea, ideology. It's a very complex, just academic phrase. There's a spectrum to CRT. And so my concern is that a lot of times when you want to engage in these conversations and when you're quickly labeled, when your rhetoric, any rhetoric that has to do with racial reconciliation, racism, when that rhetoric is labeled CRT,
00:05:50
Speaker
you have a hard time listening to whatever follows that.
Balanced Understanding of CRT
00:05:55
Speaker
I don't want to encourage anyone to not dive into understanding CRT. I think that it is great to understand these answers to the problem that we're all trying to solve. There is the biblical answer and there's the world's answer. I think that CRT is the world's attempt to answer a very complex issue, the way that we are trying to answer it according to the word.
00:06:18
Speaker
I don't want to tell anyone, don't even bother with CRT. It's something that's worth diving into if you're interested in knowing what are the answers that the world is offering. But I also want to encourage you to wrestle with and not just stay in that, oh, you know, denouncing of CRT, but really wrestle with, okay, but what does the Bible say? What does the gospel have to say? And so I really
00:06:42
Speaker
Think that it has to be a both and if we're going to talk, if you're going to dive into CRT, don't just stay in that camp. Don't just stay in that camp where you're just, you're saying, oh, you know, CRT is wrong. Let's denounce CRT. Okay, great. But now where do we go? Because you said it in your blog when you talked about racism that the gospel has to be
00:07:03
Speaker
And so at some point we have to put the feet to the gospel and we have to kind of stop hiding behind this caricature and the boogeyman of CRT and really decide to engage in conversations that may make us uncomfortable, that may evoke a sense of
Uncomfortable Discussions for Church Unity
00:07:22
Speaker
shame. We have to be willing to do that for the sake of unity amongst the brothers, for the sake of unity among the church.
00:07:29
Speaker
I don't spend a lot of time discussing CRT because I think that that time can be invested discussing what does the Bible say? And somebody asks, what is CRT, critical race theory? Which not everybody knows what CRT is. It's like there are people that are very heavy, know about it. There are people who don't know about it. But for the people who do know about it, I would just encourage you to not let it be the thing that stopped you from engaging in conversations that are very uncomfortable.
00:07:58
Speaker
And like you said, to those who are coming in now, there are actually multiple definitions and understanding of what CRT is. So you have to actually define it in order to have the conversation. So, you know, as we see this rise in Christian influencers who are denouncing CRT, I think it's helpful to say, what is it? How do you define it?
00:08:22
Speaker
And okay, if that's what you're against, what are you for? How does the gospel, like how is the gospel working out your salvation when it comes to racism? Which I think you very practically talk about in like, you know, these are certain words that may be offensive to black people in your life. Maybe don't use them in order to have better conversations. Like I appreciate that you bring these things up that perhaps
00:08:52
Speaker
And I know that you get labeled PC and liberal and progressive for even having that conversation. But in reality, you're showing us that if we're going to talk to people in this culture who maybe even do subscribe to the actual academic definition of CRT, we have to be able to have conversations with them and just denouncing their terminology isn't going to help them.
00:09:19
Speaker
And this may, I do not mean to offend anyone with this, but we also have to pay attention to who is driving the conversation of CRT. Is it mostly white evangelicals that are kind of driving that conversation or is it a diverse group of people? And I'm not talking about life. There are, there are black Christians who are talking about CRT and we all have different perspectives, but we also have to take into account that
00:09:48
Speaker
the black people who are being labeled, people like myself, other people who are smarter than me, way smarter than me, who are being labeled CRT have never once claimed to be in alignment with CRT. And so we have to really pay attention to that how in some ways this boogeyman of CRT unfortunately is causing divisions where we just need to push through the discomfort to
Understanding Black Experiences
00:10:11
Speaker
get to unity. And people unfortunately don't really want to push through the discomfort to get to unity. I would rather stick in the
00:10:16
Speaker
we don't even need to bother with this conversation because CRT is going to wreck the church when it's like well let's wreck what needs to be wrecked so that what remains remains like let's get through this hard stuff so that we the what the true church and what god has called us to to be will stand so i just think it's interesting i just think it's it's important to to kind of observe who's leading those conversations yeah okay so on now i want to kind of take
00:10:53
Speaker
Get it not out of the way because it's still going to be there the whole time, but have that as like, it's not like in your work, Shireya, you're ignoring CRT. It's that you were talking about these things before and now that CRT is this prominent thing that's brought up by Christians, you sometimes have to address it, even though you were talking about it before.
00:11:09
Speaker
What we obviously we could probably do an entire
00:11:17
Speaker
So we're talking about how to have these conversations before this became the Trump card. So my question for you just to get started is how does understanding the experience of Black Americans, including Black Christians, why should that matter to gospel-centered people? Yeah.
00:11:40
Speaker
So you brought up me like being sensitive to certain words because of cultural implications, historical implications. The reason why that matters is because in 1 Corinthians 9 when Paul says, you know, to the Jew I become a Jew, to the Gentile I become a Gentile. That's not saying that he changes up the gospel message to fit whatever cultural audience he is speaking to. What he is saying is the gospel should be the
00:12:07
Speaker
only thing that offends people. Not my language, not my speech, not what I say. The gospel is the only thing that should offend people. And so when you lean into experiences of Black people, what they have to say about living in America, words that they're offended by, things that have hurt them, trauma, you are getting to know who they are and you're getting to know their story and you're able to extend compassion instead of just
00:12:37
Speaker
I think that that's what we see Jesus doing is he finds the who of the person and then he speaks and then he brings the what like he finds the who at the woman of the well like who are you I know who you are like I know who you are even though you don't think I do I know who you are and it's that knowing that allowed Jesus to come with the gospel message with that
00:12:58
Speaker
That living, you know, water that he said that he had for her, he had to address that who so that she knew like, I care about who you are. I care about what you've been through. And because I care about that, I'm going to offer you this, the answer to all of your issues to all of your problems. And so.
00:13:12
Speaker
I really am someone who is about knowing people so that you can extend compassion. I don't want to just be like giving sympathies. I want my heart to be moved with compassion to suffer with them, which is what compassion means, to suffer alongside that person. And you can't do that if you do not know what they've been through, if you don't know
00:13:33
Speaker
Their story and that's not just for black Americans. That's for everyone. That's for when we go out on the mission field. We meet people when we want to bring them the hope of the gospel. We need to know who they are because otherwise we have a gospel without compassion. And. Nobody wants to get projects. People want to be known and not just converts, you know.
Adapting Biblical Messages to Cultures
00:13:55
Speaker
So I think it's not just for Black Americans. I think it's for all of us. And I think it's that gospel perspective that should flow into understanding Black experiences. So when you, I saw you recently, you were talking about 1 Corinthians 9.
00:14:13
Speaker
And Paul saying to the Jews, I became a Jew, to the Gentiles, I became a Gentile. And I was looking up how Paul adapted his messages to his audiences. And this one master said, he did this especially in Acts 22 when he was talking to the Jews in Jerusalem. And he said, and this is what he said about it. He said, Paul spoke in Aramaic to gain credibility among the conservative Jews in the audience.
00:14:42
Speaker
He learned to speak the language, tone, and manner, and that we should learn to speak in a language, tone, and manner your audience will consider most credible. And so he goes on to say just what you said, that he never changed the gospel itself. He just was willing to think about and adapt how he presented it to listen to the kinds of people he was speaking to. Who am I talking to? I respect.
00:15:08
Speaker
them and their culture in how I'm presenting this. So this brings me, you mentioned different words that can be a little bit triggering for conservative Christians who they immediately have this vitriolic response because they hear a word and they deem it a liberal or progressive word, for example, systemic racism.
00:15:33
Speaker
Can you maybe talk about just this concept of maybe our reaction to these words? How we could navigate that? How we can either investigate them or how we should respond when people use these words? Do you have any advice on that?
00:15:51
Speaker
So one thing that I've seen an increase in, especially maybe because social media or isolation or just the times is this quickness to label something, not with necessarily like a biblical understanding, but just with terms like that's liberal, that's progressive, that's conservative, that's CRT, like just, we're very quick to label things.
00:16:15
Speaker
Because when we label that thing, we, one, cannot really listen to the person because then we're not hearing a person who has a perspective. We are hearing a caricature of an idea. We're hearing a caricature of progressive ideology. We're hearing a caricature of liberal ideology.
Systemic Racism and Biblical Perspective
00:16:32
Speaker
We're hearing a caricature of conservative ideology if you're on the other side. And then secondly, we don't have to really
00:16:40
Speaker
engage with that person. We don't have to show true godly love for that person because we distance ourselves. Because we have these terms that are kind of bad, like to some people liberal is essentially bad. And that's just their perspective. Anything that is liberal is something that goes against the word of God. It's something that is a worldview. And so as soon as they label something liberal, then they distance themselves from that and they can no longer engage it.
00:17:09
Speaker
So I would really encourage first to be slower to label things. I think there's this assumption that to lean into a conversation and to listen to understand that I'm supposed to just agree. And that's not the objective. The objective is to just understand. The objective is to just get a better perspective of what this person has to say.
00:17:33
Speaker
I think the idea of systemic racism, for me, I call it systemic or structural sin. And so I think that that is something that when we look at racism as a sin issue,
00:17:48
Speaker
which is what a lot of people say, then we know that we are born sinners. It's not our sin that makes us sinners. We were born into sin. And so when we can, we can sin as individuals, but we can also sin corporately.
00:18:03
Speaker
And even in, you know, the Old Testament, they say the Bible says that Israel, like the people of Israel sin, but then it also refers to Israel sinning, like corporately sinning. And so I think it's important, especially when we want to have a biblical perspective on these tough issues, that when we say racism, when we say, when we use these words that are kind of trigger words,
00:18:26
Speaker
Maybe if we called it what it was, which is sin, we would be able to approach it as it is and not approach it from this change-filled place of like, well, it couldn't be systemic because I love America, which I do too. I love America too. And I think that there's a hesitation to admit to that because it, for some people it's like, well, I don't want to say that there's anything wrong with America that I don't love America. But I think we can all admit that.
00:18:53
Speaker
slavery was a sin and it was a sin that this country partook in. And so I just think that the way that we label things liberal or progressive when we can just label it a sin could be helpful in kind of being more willing to approach these conversations that are otherwise difficult to dive into.
00:19:15
Speaker
Yeah, and I think, and this is in a side that was very helpful. I think one of the things you bring up is like.
00:19:23
Speaker
the love of America, right? Is the fact that slavery existed in the nation that we love. I often will hear from people, and this kind of gets into history a little bit. Even in my own study of history, I had to read in high school, not because of my parents, but because of a particular tutor that I had. A lot of books that were very, I don't know how to describe it, it's a little bit like
00:19:47
Speaker
A higher view of American history than was actually realistic, I guess I would say. So positive that it ignored some of the realities of what was happening among sinners who created this nation. And I think what happens is people say, well, every nation has had slavery at some point or another. But to remember that America has been held up as a different kind of nation.
Gospel and Action in Addressing Racism
00:20:13
Speaker
And as a nation that, I mean, even many people still claiming that this is an anointed nation or a Christian nation. So that, if you're going to hold that view, then you have to reconcile this huge stain on that nation's history. So we're going to hold this view that America's a Christian nation. We're an anointed nation for a special nation. Then we also, as Christians, have to reconcile. We can ignore the implications of this.
00:20:43
Speaker
who had affected in the nation. And so I don't know for those who were listening, I think me 10 years ago probably would have struggled with this more if I had recognized that connection between how black Americans feel today and then looking at the history and how that played out. So I appreciate you drawing attention to that.
00:21:11
Speaker
How about to kind of tie back into what you were saying about racism being a sin. We know that's the fact, right? That's bad. And some people will say, well, racism is a sin. So the only solution to sin is the gospel. Therefore, the solution to racism is just to preach the gospel. So my question for you is, is this narrative sufficient? And if not,
00:21:39
Speaker
The assumption is you're saying the gospel isn't sufficient. Where do we go from there? I know. You're going to get me caught up, Felicia. Thank you. I'm just kidding. I want to say first to speak to the people who say preach the gospel. That is the answer. I think people that say that, one, they want to uphold
00:22:02
Speaker
the truth of the primacy of the gospel. Like 1 Corinthians 53 says, 15.3 says that the gospel is of first importance. And so you are correct in saying the gospel is the most important thing. It is the thing that is the solution to all things and that the solution to social reform is, as Ezekiel says, renewed hearts that come to the power of the gospel. So there's that angle. There's also people who fear losing the gospel. So
00:22:31
Speaker
in the 20th century there was the social gospel movement which it was a belief that churches needed to win souls and fight systemic injustices. Unfortunately that movement kind of led into an alteration of the church's missions going from evangelism to social progress and a political agenda which you it basically denied ended up denying the gospel of Jesus Christ and replacing it with political and social mission. So I can see that
00:23:00
Speaker
The concern that kind of is underneath the preach the gospel push and mandate. And so I want to be clear that I too believe in the privacy of the gospel. Like I, I, the gospel is enough. It is sufficient. Like that's just, it is, it is the answer to all of all of the earth's problems. But I also think that we have to understand that not even the Bible only preach the gospel, like
00:23:25
Speaker
Paul addresses divisions in the church. He addresses ethnic pride. James addresses favoritism. So the Bible itself tells us that there's the gospel, but then as Galatian says, we also are supposed to make sure that we're in step in the truth of the gospel. And so it's, again, both and, like the gospel cannot, it is about salvation, but it's also about sanctification. It's also about not just like the way in which
00:23:53
Speaker
the sun is in the solar system, but also the ways in which that it affects the solar system, that it affects all of the things around it. And so I think that the preach the gospel sentiment unfortunately echoes historically a dismissal of racial conversations. When you read letters in Birmingham Gel written by Martin Luther King Jr.,
00:24:14
Speaker
He's responding to the same exact sentiment, the just preach the gospel and essentially just obey the law and let the systems inevitably work itself out and just wait for justice to happen. Just wait for it to happen. That is what many of the Christian moderates of that time were telling Martin Luther King is
00:24:36
Speaker
We don't need you to do all the protesting stuff. You're causing a little bit too much of a risk. Just wait. Just obey the law and just let the legal systems work themselves out.
00:24:46
Speaker
And I think that most of us would be grateful for what Martin Luther King Jr. did. I think most of us would say, hey, I'd be out there marching with him. I think most of us are very, very grateful for the progress that he initiated in this country. But he had to also come against the preach the gospel sentiment. That the gospel is just enough. It is enough. But that the gospel is enough to the point that it doesn't have legs. And I think that it's,
00:25:15
Speaker
It's unfortunately, it's really disheartening and sometimes frustrating when in conversations about abortion and sex trafficking, you do not hear just preach the gospel.
00:25:26
Speaker
you hear just preach the gospel but also we are going to do x y and z to set these women free to you know pressure our legal systems to make sure that abortion is abolished like you don't hear just preach the gospel but then when conversations about race come up all of a sudden just the primacy of the primacy of the of the gospel reappears and unfortunately
00:25:51
Speaker
it's to drown out the issue and not really to wrestle with the ways in which the gospel has an answer. And so we have to be willing to acknowledge why Just Preach the Gospel is a sufficient answer in some instances and is an insufficient answer in other instances. And
00:26:15
Speaker
That is more important than just to preach the gospel sufficient. It's more of why it's just to preach the gospel sufficient in some conversations and not sufficient in all conversations. Which is such a nuanced thing.
00:26:34
Speaker
So, one of the things I think, well, I had Amy Ford on a couple weeks ago who runs a ministry for women who are on the verge of choosing abortion. And this is exactly what she said about abortion. Yeah, this is exactly what she said about abortion was, you know, we walk, we come in here and we, we walk with these women and we, you know, meet these women right where they're at, but we're also voicing our, you know, our
00:27:00
Speaker
our views on a political or legislative scale as well. And I think one of the things that happens with the abortion issue too is that's an action. It's not a hard issue like racism. Abortion is a hard issue. It's usually a terrified young mom who thinks she has no other option. So what is the Christian doing? We're coming in there and coming alongside and listening to her story. And Amy said, she said, I'm not shaming them.
00:27:30
Speaker
For the position that they're in, I'm providing them either resources or walking with them and saying, tell me your story and reaching the gospel. But there's that compassion that you mentioned earlier and that willingness to enter into their experience.
00:27:45
Speaker
And then from there, you know, the reality is even in the abortion conversation, there is a, there's a variety of different thought on how to go about it politically, you know, in the same thing, right? In the racism. 100%. There's a spectrum of how, there are people that all, I mean, I don't think all people think that we are supposed to go about this the same way.
00:28:10
Speaker
And I think that that is something that we all have to acknowledge that not I am not speaking for every single black Christian on how to solve the issue of racism. And I also want to say that I know that any justice that is achieved on earth is not like perfect justice. Like we're only going to see true justice when Christ returns, but I think that.
00:28:31
Speaker
being willing to engage in those conversations and being willing to really wrestle with those hard, hard conversations, it's important. It's necessary. And are we all going about it the same way? No. Did the disciples all do things the same way? No. But our heart to see justice and to bring the heart of God to other people, it's all there. It's all there.
00:29:00
Speaker
Okay, I have two more questions for you. Two more questions for you. I'm trying to decide which one to do first. Okay, I'm gonna start, since we're talking about the words you use in these conversations, having compassion, I'm going to talk about a, you did a reel a little while back,
Understanding Microaggressions
00:29:19
Speaker
a couple of weeks ago, that talked about, I know it's okay, but you're the one putting this stuff out here and being over it. Okay.
00:29:28
Speaker
You talk to the real microaggressions, which is a true word. Yes, I know. I know. I know. So, but I, but I, this is why I wanted to ask you this though.
00:29:42
Speaker
for the Christian conservatives who may listen to this or watch this and are listening to a gospel loving Christian black woman who uses the word microaggression. Can you explain first of all what that might mean? And also how could a Christian conservative who hears this and immediately thinks liberal progressive wants to shut down? How would you talk to them about that?
00:30:12
Speaker
Okay, this is a lot. So I use the term microaggression as
00:30:22
Speaker
It's simply language that has an undertone, and I don't want to say racist because I think racist is a word that is unfortunately thrown around so much that it has lost a lot of its weightiness. I would not say microaggressions are racist as much as they are language that's more dipped in prejudice ideology. So for example, asking or saying something like,
00:30:52
Speaker
you're so eloquent when I speak as a black woman. You're so eloquent or you speak so well. That type of a statement
00:31:05
Speaker
comes from an implication that you're surprised that I speak well because you may have a stereotype that a bias that Black people don't speak well. And so I think that a lot of the pushback for microaggressions is this
00:31:27
Speaker
this defensiveness around being politically correct or having to tiptoe around conversations, like people just want to be free to be able to say what they want to say and to express themselves. And we are just a very individualistic society that is like, I didn't mean anything by it, so why are you so upset by it? And I think that that is the gray area of microaggressions is it's not like people are trying to hurt my feelings or trying to say something that's offensive to me.
00:31:55
Speaker
But it's receipt, the impact is offensive. And so it's hard because these are terms that are fluent in a lot of black circles, microaggressions. It's fluent in a lot of black circles. And it's not attached to us. And I'm going to speak for people that I also know in my own circles. To us, it's not associated with liberal or progressive, you know,
00:32:25
Speaker
agendas or labels it is a way to put words to something that makes us uncomfortable is a way to put words to you know i didn't like that like for example my dad for example
00:32:40
Speaker
He does not know I'm telling this story, but he went to the airport. He's flying out of somewhere. And for some reason, the alarm went off and he had to get patted down. And in the course of that pat down, got patted down three times, they asked him, well, what do you do for a living?
00:32:57
Speaker
which what does that have to do with him getting passed down and what does that have to do with him setting off the alarm and what he does for a living and so for him he was like I don't that just didn't sit well with me I didn't like how that felt and there's something about being able to put words to
00:33:14
Speaker
a communal experience as Black people that makes us feel a little less crazy. And so it's a hard question that's kind of throwing me off guard, but I think that the best way to describe it is we are not attaching it to a progressive ideology. It is just a way for us to describe something that just
00:33:40
Speaker
makes us cringe, it makes us feel uncomfortable, it makes us feel as if who we are is coming into question or who we are is being stereotyped in a negative way. And so it's just a negative experience.
Cultural Depth of Black Identity
00:33:56
Speaker
I would not I would not have known that, like, and so I think you sharing that just gives us an example of. Something that's a part of your experience. And your cultural American experience that those of us who are not in that. Experience would never ever know and so I appreciate you willing to share that. So, no, I just kind of catch you off. I don't have that.
00:34:24
Speaker
Oh my goodness. So one other question I wanted to ask you that's kind of connected to this is a lot of times when we use the term black in Christian circles or black or white, but mostly when we talk about you being a black American, the response is, well, you're lumping people into a group based on their skin color and that's racist.
00:34:48
Speaker
So is black more than just a skin color? How does that impact these conversations? OK, so there's two parts. One, black and white, race is a social construct. We can all agree on that basic definition, that the distinguishing people by their skin color was a social construct historically.
00:35:15
Speaker
But I think that it's also important to make sure that we, again, are defining things as they are. A distinction, identifying a group of people would not fall into the actual definition of being racist or being prejudiced to someone based on their skin color. You're literally just identifying, look at the group of black people. They are all black.
00:35:42
Speaker
And I'm just distinguishing them, identifying that group. Just like I would say, look at that group of chickens over there, or look at that group of gorillas. It's just identifying, right? I think further than that is black more than the skin color as a black woman, very much so. Because we have to acknowledge that for a lot of black Americans,
00:36:08
Speaker
Black is a culture. It's not just our skin color because we were taken from our native land. So a lot of us do not know where we are from. And so the only culture that we can tie to is black.
00:36:23
Speaker
Which is, it's a culture, there's nuances of being black, there's a spectrum of being black, but my blackness is not just my color as much as it's also my culture, which ties into conversations about microaggressions because culturally there are things that you can say that would offend me.
00:36:45
Speaker
As a quote when you when you consider black as a culture. I think it's easier to understand how there are things that you can say that would be offensive to that. Culture and it's really easy to.
00:36:59
Speaker
disregard the consequences of slavery for Black Americans. And the fact that we do not have, like, I cannot say, oh, I'm Italian, or I'm, you know, this is my culture. This is my ethnicity. This is where I'm from. For so many of us, Black is, it's our culture. It's all that we have left.
00:37:22
Speaker
because we've created it. We had to create our own identity because we came to a country where we didn't know much. Enslaved Blacks who came here had to literally figure out who they were because they were taken from their native land and they were made to assimilate into a different culture.
Book Recommendations and Diverse Voices
00:37:39
Speaker
And so being Black and Black culture is, it has generational connections. It has like,
00:37:48
Speaker
depth and deep, deep, rich beauty to it that I think that it's hard when people just say that it's just a skin color or it's just a race when it's like
00:37:59
Speaker
Yes, but it's all that we have left and it's who we are in a lot of ways. Is it more important than being a Christian? No. Like, does my blackness supersede my Christianity and who I am in Christ? Definitely not, but it matters still. And I think that being willing to let that matter and not saying, well, you're a Christian and being a Christian like is the most, it takes over your skin color. You wouldn't necessarily say that when someone is proud of being Italian.
00:38:25
Speaker
or proud of being Russian or proud of being, you know, all of these different other cultural identities. And so I just think that it is a lack of compassion when
00:38:37
Speaker
You, when people, I say you, but when people assume that black is just a skin color that, and that's all it is. And so when you become a Christian, you just, that's the most important thing, which it is the most important thing, but there is a cultural implication of being black that runs, it runs really deep and it's worth.
00:38:57
Speaker
Leaning into and it's worth saying. Hey it that matters that matters. You are both and you are a Christian who loves the Lord and you are a black like I am a Christian loves Lord and I'm a black woman and I'm proud of those things because that is how God made me and That I do not have to denounce one to be the other. They are both who I am so I
00:39:21
Speaker
And you've said that the Black cultural experience is very diverse. And you said you're not among it. So for people, one of the commentators said something that I think would be a really great question to end on. She said, I feel Black people are so often put in the position to provide the education, which you are doing for us here, and I appreciate. Are there suggestions that can be provided to those who have questions about the culture in our experiences? Where can people learn more on their own time?
00:39:51
Speaker
about Black culture. About Black culture and any other resources you want to recommend? So many. Okay. I love Esau Macaulay's book, Reading While Black. It is written for Black people. So I think that that's important to take into account when you read that book. There are some books that are read to explain Black people to non-Black people. And then there's books that are written
00:40:19
Speaker
as a black person to a black person. But I think that that book did a really great way, did a really good job of explaining the
00:40:28
Speaker
complex existence of being a black Christian within, in the context of American society. So reading my black is really something that I would recommend the color compromise I really love because it talks about the ways that the church has historically kind of been involved or not been involved in racial relations. And I think that that's really helpful to see the patterns that we're kind of repeating and to kind of be aware of those things.
00:40:53
Speaker
And ultimately, like, I would say following people on Instagram, following different Black accounts on Instagram. I know it doesn't seem like a lot, but I think just like when I fuck Jasmine, for example, because I'm just this Jasmine fangirl, but she does such a good job of giving her who she is as a Black woman, giving her experience. And so just being willing to lean into a diverse
00:41:18
Speaker
Range of black voices, which is something that you do such a good job of encouraging people to do in the context of theology is like, make sure you're reading someone that maybe is not in the same theological camp as you is something that you encourage, which I really think is amazing. I would also say that, you know.
00:41:34
Speaker
listen to a Black voice that maybe doesn't think the same as you, not in an effort to agree with them, but to just understand and to get a broader perspective of the Black experience because it is very diverse. And you may hear echoes and you may hear rebuttals, but they all matter and they're all worth leaning into in order to just get a more holistic understanding of.
00:41:59
Speaker
black experience so yeah well thank you thank you for sharing that and i'm sure you have done recommendations on your stories before yeah yeah on your i did like black history breakdown i did a highlight of a bunch of black theologians and so if you're interested in that i have resources there that yeah a ton of
00:42:18
Speaker
Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for doing this. And include, where can people follow you and keep up with you? I am over at Coco Gospels. And that's where I...
00:42:32
Speaker
live on the internet at the moment. I also have a Twitter, but I don't really use Twitter only to make content for Instagram. So, oh yeah, just global gospels. And my podcast will be relaunching in the next couple of weeks, but that's where I do most of my, my things right now. Cause I, to be honest, I was kind of thrust into this world. So.
00:42:52
Speaker
That's kind of well, we are grateful to have you here and I see you taking the time to do. Thank you for having me. Yes, this interview will be saved to I. G. T. V. So, for those of you who want to share it or want to watch it later, you can do so. Awesome. Thank you again. Have a good night.
00:43:12
Speaker
I think all of us have been at a women's conference where we were told, you are a beautiful daughter of the Most High King. And it's true, but it's not the whole truth. The beauty of being God's daughter has some backstory and it's left out in a lot of messages preached to women.
00:43:31
Speaker
So if you're tired of hearing the watered down Christian teaching and you're hungry for a deeper spiritual life, I have something for you. It's my brand new book, Stop Calling Me Beautiful, Finding Soul Deep Strength in a Skin Deep World. Stop Calling Me Beautiful is a book about going deeper with God.
00:43:48
Speaker
I'm going to talk about pursuing the truths of who God is and who we are in relationship to Him, how to study Scripture, how legalism, shallow theology, and false teaching keep us from living boldly as a woman of the Word. I'm so excited to put this book in your hands. You can grab your copy on Amazon or for more information head to my website FeliciaMasonheimer.com and click the book tab.
00:44:14
Speaker
Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Verity. You can connect with fellow listeners by following me on Instagram at Felicia Masonheimer or on our Facebook page by the same name. Also visit FeliciaMasonheimer.com for links to each episode and the show notes.