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S02E26: Abruptly Analyzing the Mythology of Ahsoka with John Bucher
12 Plays2 hours ago
We wrap up our conversation with John Bucher, executive director of the Joseph Campbell Foundation, by exploring how mythology and the hero's journey show up in Ahsoka. And while we're at it... let's do the same with Andor! Heroes to the left of us, heroes to the right, here we are!
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
We are talking about Ahsoka and Andor with the Joseph Campbell Foundation's John Booker, and we're doing it real fast. Aren't you a little short? Aren't you a little short?
00:00:11
Speaker
Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper? Welcome back to Short for a Stormtrooper, a 15-minute Star Wars podcast.
Joseph Campbell's Influence on Star Wars
00:00:21
Speaker
As you recall, we've been talking with John Booker, the executive director of the Joseph Campbell Foundation, about Campbell and the hero's journey and how it pertains to Star Wars and mythology and all of that good stuff.
00:00:33
Speaker
You may remember I met John when we attended his panel at Star Wars Celebration in Tokyo on Ahsoka and the Underworld and the mythology of Ahsoka.
Mythological Elements in Ahsoka's Story
00:00:43
Speaker
So in our last concluding episode but John, wanted to talk about Ahsoka and then we're going to get in and talk about Andor as well. So let's take a listen.
00:00:54
Speaker
Let's get into Ahsoka a soka little bit because, you know, I, I liked Ahsoka fine. And actually I just said, I love all three of the, of the sequels and my listeners are probably like calling stinky whiff on me.
00:01:05
Speaker
Um, For the record, love love The Force Awakens. Yes. Love The Last Jedi. Yeah. Rise of Skywalker. I cried all the way through it positively. And then I got home and I was like, wait a second.
00:01:19
Speaker
But anyway, I reserve the right to change my opinions, which i always do. I totally understand. And there's a lot that I think we can all agree might have been done differently. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we we could leave it at that for now. Right. but With Ahsoka, I liked Ahsoka just fine. i remember, you know, texting my friends about episode four and being like, oh, thank God, this is the episode we needed where I finally like picked up the action and stuff.
00:01:47
Speaker
But um hearing your panel, i like made all three of us who attended go like, we got to go back and watch this again. Like, this is fascinating. So can you unpack?
00:01:59
Speaker
Yeah. Obviously not, you know, in an hour, the hour panel, but can you hit the highlights of of mythology of Ahsoka and how it connects to Orpheus, like all of that good stuff?
Ahsoka's Role and Transformation
00:02:09
Speaker
Yeah. You know, that there's, there's something I think that Ahsoka is a character that,
00:02:15
Speaker
really opens up a lot of mythic possibilities that we we don't have in a lot of the other characters. Now, um you know, I'll preface this by also saying I too am a big fan of ah Dave Filoni's work before he gets into some of these. So, you know i think Clone Wars is one of the the the great storytelling achievements in all of ah Star Wars. So...
00:02:39
Speaker
um i I came in already loving this character. And, you know, there were some people who loved this character so much that they could not stand to see this character embodied in, you know, flesh. It was was difficult, you know, for some people. But um I really love the way, and i um I won't go through every episode, but I really love the way Ahsoka opens with this character.
00:03:07
Speaker
scene of Ahsoka's descent down into, you know, what we believe is probably a former Jedi temple, or or at least it it has the relics, you know, that ah are there. And I think this is really important,
00:03:24
Speaker
ah ah for understanding Ahsoka mythologically, because I think it positions Ahsoka as a a hero, a heroine who is coming into a much larger story than herself.
00:03:41
Speaker
And It would have been um an interesting you know story to have told sort of Ahsoka's heroic journey. And in in a sense, we get to that.
00:03:54
Speaker
But really, Ahsoka is sort of functioning on two mythological
Filoni's Integration of Myth and Innovation
00:03:59
Speaker
levels. And one of those is the wise sage figure for Sabine. Mm-hmm.
00:04:06
Speaker
you know Sabine is is having a more classical heroic journey throughout the story of Ahsoka. And you know we we still see elements of that classic heroic journey with Ahsoka herself.
00:04:19
Speaker
But really, you know it's Sabine's character that is kind of taking on this Skywalker-esque role in the story of Ahsoka.
00:04:32
Speaker
Now, that said... When we get into um the ah the what I would call the Orphic moments of Ahsoka, and this is, of course, referring to the mythology of Orpheus and going back down into the the underworld and trying to save someone that ah you you care about,
00:04:56
Speaker
Well, we see this very clearly in her encounter with Anakin. And there's something i think that i I was really struck by where Ahsoka is having this experience um in this underwater type of scenario, right? And water symbolically in mythology um is a symbol of the unconscious.
00:05:23
Speaker
in the underworld, and and that which is is is is the realm of dreams. So we don't always have a clear sense, especially through some of these scenes, if this is really happening, or if this is happening on some other level of consciousness, or if this is a dream that Ahsoka is having.
00:05:40
Speaker
And this is very mythic because in the end, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It really doesn't. So when we see, you know, Ahsoka eventually emerge from that underworld in which she's brought back out of the water, we see a dramatic change in Ahsoka's character.
00:06:00
Speaker
And we know it doesn't matter if it was real or not, because the effect is still the same. And the effect ah is the transformation of her character.
00:06:11
Speaker
She ascends to a new place in who she is. And so... There are all sorts of other interesting little elements that Filoni weaves in here. The ah the sky whales are one of my favorite but favorite motifs because we've got this Joseph Campbell idea of the ah the belly of the whale motif. and you know Star Wars has brought this in from time to time. you know even Even all the way back in the original trilogy, we see these belly of the whale motifs where the characters descend into the actual belly of a beast.
00:06:49
Speaker
And Campbell said that this is also important for transformation, that we we have to go and be surrounded in this darkness before we can emerge.
00:06:59
Speaker
um But you know the last thing that I'll say about Ahsoka as a mythological story is that I really appreciate Dave Filoni's ability to balance ancient myth with futuristic imagination of of mythic ideas and where science fiction and space fantasy and um our speculative ideas about what the future could be sort of all come together and emerge. And he doesn't
00:07:38
Speaker
play so close to ancient myth that it becomes predictable and boring. He uses the the framework and the skeleton of it to put all new flesh on it.
00:07:52
Speaker
And we we have, you know, witches enter yeah into, you know, the Star Wars universe. And um I think there' there's there's so much we could unpack there. But I think that Filoni is just masterful in the way that he tips his hat to mythological elements that open up our imagination and cause us to see something deeper in this grand universe that is Star Wars.
Transition to Andor – Different Storytelling Approach
00:08:24
Speaker
We only have a couple of minutes left because not only because I have a short podcast, but also you have to run. um So just really quickly in the time we have left, give me your thoughts on Andor.
00:08:35
Speaker
and how am it Because, you know, the whole storyline on Andor has been it's been very different than regular Star Wars. And so how do you see Andor fitting into Campbellian? Yeah.
00:08:47
Speaker
Well, I really, really love Rogue One. We should start there before we even ah you know go end into Andor.
00:08:58
Speaker
And I am just a real fan of that story, of that film, and of those characters. And I felt like, in many ways, Rogue One...
00:09:08
Speaker
um was an honorary film of the canon, you know, that yeah it very easily could slip in there. And honestly, I enjoy Rogue One even more than some of the episodes of the the Star Wars trilogy, is a pure film.
00:09:26
Speaker
um So to see these, you know, characters and especially, you know, Cassian's character ah get get his due and be explored, I was in from the very beginning on that.
00:09:37
Speaker
The first season of Andor was such masterful storytelling to me. I just was bowled over by how the stories within Star Wars could be taken to a different place with characters that, um you know, they're they're introducing new characters all the time in this story, but yet it all still felt very in world to me. Yeah.
00:10:07
Speaker
With season two, don't get me wrong. I am a fan. I am still processing a lot of season two because, I think, you know, where it ends and how we, how it in some ways changes, that don't want to spoil anything, but how it somewhat, how changes, how we view Rogue One and how we view, you know, what happens afterwards.
00:10:30
Speaker
um I'm still processing that for myself. There were some things I really loved and some things um I'm, Still trying to grasp.
00:10:42
Speaker
And one of the the real differences about Andor for me is George Lucas, it was very vocal about he created Star Wars for kids in its kids' stories.
00:10:56
Speaker
Andor very decidedly took ah Star Wars into the realm of adults. And it's a story for adults in many ways. And I love that. i was so happy to have a story for adults.
00:11:08
Speaker
I think when we then take this story for adults and now we're trying to sort of marry it in to ah story for kids, um you know, with where what we know happens in episode four and, ah you know, we're, we're,
00:11:24
Speaker
we' We've got a tall order ahead
Complexity and Artistry in Andor
00:11:26
Speaker
of us. Right. Right. and so I'm still kind of processing how I feel about some of ah how the second season of Andor ended.
00:11:36
Speaker
um i I may change my mind on on that, but i'm I'm still processing that. And i don't know that I have ah clear thinking around it just yet.
00:11:48
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you know, i I absolutely loved it. Again, from the point of view of it being the story that I particularly needed at this time to help me make sense of the world. I'll just leave it at that and to feel some different things about what's currently going on in the world, even though, know, it was...
00:12:05
Speaker
create you written so many years ago. yeah um But I said on this podcast when we talked about the last few episodes of Andor is, does this all make Luke Skywalker feel a little less than? Right. right So I imagine that's the type of thing that you're you're struggling with. That's a lot of what I'm struggling with. And so i just kind of have to choose to keep both of those in creative tension and appreciate them both for where they are.
00:12:33
Speaker
So, and I, I am always going to be a defender of the whole of star Wars. Same. You know, yeah that, that's not, that didn't change anything for me.
00:12:44
Speaker
Um, I'm still going to go see every movie and TV show and read every book and coly I'm in, ah But I think we're all going to, i think you said it so well, that we're going to gravitate to certain aspects of certain stories more so at certain points in our lives because they they speak to us in different ways, which is what good art does.
Promoting Resources and Works on Mythology
00:13:08
Speaker
It speaks to us at the moment we need it with the message we need for it that moment. And I love that. Yeah. And that's how we wrapped up our conversation with John Booker, the executive director of the Joseph Campbell Foundation. Great guy, now a great friend. i am sure we will have him back on the podcast sometime soon.
00:13:27
Speaker
If you want to know more about Joseph Campbell and the Joseph Campbell Foundation, it's jcf.org. Really easy to remember the website. And you can connect with John there. I am sure he would love to hear from you. And I will tell you, if you want to dive in more and understand more about the hero's journey and Joseph Campbell, I personally find the book Hero with a Thousand Faces a little bit hard to read.
00:13:54
Speaker
Just being honest with you guys, might you're my friends. ah It's a little bit hard to get through, but there's a lot of other ways that you can understand the hero's journey and where it comes from. One of them is a book by a woman named Nancy Duarte. She's actually a graphic designer who focuses on using the hero's journey in creating a good PowerPoint presentation of all things.
00:14:18
Speaker
But her book is called Resonate. I recommend that book to so many people who are interested in this. It's a great place to dive in. You'll also find links to a bunch of videos of ah like Joseph Campbell talking about the hero's journey with various journalists.
00:14:35
Speaker
You can find it out there. It's great stuff. and encourage you to jump into
Conclusion and Audience Engagement
00:14:40
Speaker
that. Meanwhile, we'll wrap it up for today. Please hit like, please tell your friends, please subscribe, please leave us a review, do all of the wonderful things.
00:14:49
Speaker
We'll see you really soon. We're going have a great guest coming up on our next episode. Hang on tight for that. May the force be with you. We'll see you soon. Bye-bye.
00:15:00
Speaker
Aren't you a little short? Aren't you a little short? Aren't you a little short for a sporn trooper? Aren't you a little short for sporn trooper?