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09 - Vtubers, part 3 - Culture Wars
28 Plays1 month ago
In the final part of the VTubers series, Dave steps away from the exploitation of talent by their employers, and instead examines pressures from the fans and media. When VTuber companies or talents try to stay apolitical, they may find themselves stepping into politics anyways. Here we explore the lewdtuber agency VAllure, the controversies of Pipkin Pippa, and the highway robbery of ninety-dollar coffee.
For sources and additional links, please visit www.thewonderkamer.ca
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview
00:00:22
Speaker
um Hello and welcome to the Wonder Camera. Your three dilettantes were just grooving to the wonderful theme song of this podcast. My name is Jen Rempel. We are here for part three of our series on VTubers and I am with our current presenter today with who is Dave Powell and Tracy Anderson Powell.
The Future of VTubers and Fan Relationships
00:00:48
Speaker
And we are here today to, yes, as I mentioned, learn the fate of some of these notorious figures and that we have learned about through our past episodes. And I'm very curious to see where we're going.
00:01:04
Speaker
What happens to the VTubers? Well, unfortunately, Jen, they're all dead. Oh, yeah. And a podcast. That's right. pack it outside There was a call of the of the puppy girls and the fish girls. And it's terrible. And we're just sweeping up after now.
00:01:24
Speaker
um I mean, but they don't deserve that. No, no, they didn't. Maybe the fans.
00:01:31
Speaker
Just Those VTubers. Be nice to the fans. If the VTubers like the fans, so do we, mostly. Except for those problematic ones. Just being nice.
00:01:43
Speaker
ah You know, 80-20 rule ah is where that comes down. ah And as the same, if you've ever been in any online fan community, fan communities are terrible. Fan discourse is terrible.
00:01:56
Speaker
Fans can be okay. It's a complicated relationship, as is everything in this.
Feminism and Transparency in VTubing
00:02:01
Speaker
But let's get into it as we dive into an unanticipated part three, the concluding episode of our series on the black corpos of the V-tubing world.
00:02:12
Speaker
So I'm here to guide ah my two dilettantes into the strange world of fervent fans, harried performers doing their best, and deranged exploitative talent agencies. And so I'm going to pivot that to talk about some competent business minds in VTubing, both in ways that are odd and one that I know both of you are going to hate. But I'm kind of excited for that okay So I'm going to start talking about two talent agencies, which I'd call mid-level. ah they're not ah
00:02:43
Speaker
ah They're not producing Iron Mouses and Gargurras and these massive international celebrity-level talents. but I like how they're running the company. And I'm also going to talk about some scandals related to them that are entirely about, it's kind of a through line, and I'm going to kind of take a different course here because I think I've closed off my talk about the Black Corpos, and I want to pick up on the line I've laid down about Hogwarts legacy and the culture war and how that plays in with fan perceptions of this company because I think that gets interesting here.
00:03:19
Speaker
So the first one is Via Lure. Via Lure is a talent agency whose head is a woman. Yay! Her name is, and she is a VTuber. I know. do we Everything she does is feminist automatically because she's a lady. So...
00:03:35
Speaker
yeah Just kidding. Gaslight gatekeep girl boss. ah And up however, I really like it. I'm joking too. I'm just saying that's the narrative. I have no opinion on this person. Oh, I know. Well, let's be, let's be clear. i am highly skeptical of people who think the way forward is more transgender drone pilots. Yeah.
00:03:54
Speaker
Yeah. ah Maybe we should have fewer drone pilots and i'd just give all the trans people boneless chicken wings. Unless they're vegan. ah They can have blah hages
Ethics and Transparency in VTubing
00:04:03
Speaker
then. Anyways, so, Strawny Cuddles.
00:04:06
Speaker
She is a Scottish VTuber. Wait, so can you say him again? She's already delayed. Strawny Cuddles. Okay, that's cool, but... Yes. And she was. ja So she is a ah very Scottish VTuber who was jaded at ah the treatment she had under another small company and so launched her own agency.
00:04:28
Speaker
And her agency deals with soft core sexual content. Editing Dave here. Vialure's branded content on YouTube is soft core, but it looks like all of their talents have subscription content that can be very hardcore through Patreon or only fans or the like.
00:04:45
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of ASMR. And you both know ASMR? Yeah. Good, good, good. It's one of those concepts I think everyone knows now. um and like this And it's really, yeah, exactly. Sort of the opposite of ASMR.
00:05:02
Speaker
I'm going to have a sip of my tea.
00:05:10
Speaker
Ow! Fuck! It's hot! Oh no! I ASMR'd wrong. And I lost where I was. And it I lost where I was in my script. Dave Kyle ASMR. Ah!
00:05:21
Speaker
My lips! Ah! My lips! Wow, so soothing.
00:05:30
Speaker
Ah! Okay. I could just fall asleep to to that. Ah!
00:05:40
Speaker
They're singing to the angels themselves. And so Veolar is all on YouTube. So it's YouTube-friendly content. um And many of the talent have company-endorsed side hustles doing basically only fan sex work, except on sites like Fansly. Sort of like anything from the face, anything from the neck down goes in order to maintain anonymity.
00:05:59
Speaker
Strawny Cuddles has a Very open and transparent energy, I respect. um They do a lot of YouTube shorts where she talks about the business of VTubing, openly talking about how much she makes, openly talking about how much everyone in the company makes and how the contracts work.
00:06:17
Speaker
It's a kind of transparency that I have never seen in this very secretive space. It's not something that you see anywhere. Yeah, did ah there was interesting because I'm not exactly sure we we're going with this, hopefully in a positive direction. that The transparency, I think, is a really great thing. One thing you will notice if you go, say, to the red light district in Amsterdam, you know, there's a lot of sex workers there. You have those brothels you can walk right into. They have like a sex work center where you can walk in and talk to sex workers and learn about what they're doing.
00:06:49
Speaker
I learned about their lives and chat with them. And then there's posters everywhere. So, you know, respect people. We're human beings. So it's and I have mixed feelings about all that. Well, I think it should be legal, but it's still
Fan Behavior and Comparisons to Sex Work
00:06:59
Speaker
exploitative, all these issues with sex work. But that said, you you have that layer of transparency, openness, explanation and safety and having it out in the open. And this to me is much better than, again, the shady dealings and pretending, you know, things aren't a business like it is.
00:07:18
Speaker
Anyway, interesting. Yes. And this is very much that kind of energy, which is the um notwithstanding the politics of sex work and if sex work is a good thing or not, which I don't think is ah the conversation to have here or frankly, even the necessary one. It's it's here. you have to have You have to deal with it.
00:07:40
Speaker
It's about ethical sex work run by women. Understanding that the sex work they do is ah Very tied in with those conservative politics that are at the core of corporate V2 being an idol culture.
00:07:56
Speaker
This is about women performing for men. It's very heteronormative. So she finds her audience who want that comfort and validation and all their manly fears about the modern world to vanish and give them what they want for money.
00:08:12
Speaker
And the talent who work for her, you know, come in knowing exactly what they're up for and ah do so and genuinely seem to, you know, love their jobs, make money. They make around $3,100 American a month on average, which, again, no I'm not going to find that about any other VTuber company. Good for them.
00:08:30
Speaker
Now, V-Aller's content itself is so not my thing. It's a lot of ASMR roleplay, which I just been kind of unsettled by. And up I'm going to show you ah a clip of a YouTube video because it's best seen rather than explained.
00:08:46
Speaker
And I want to stress for all of you lovely perverts out there for who are, of course, listening to our podcast. I'm not yucking on your yum. and Whatever you like is not immoral, and you're not a lesser person for enjoying it.
00:09:00
Speaker
However, what the fuck? That's fair. Let's see. I'm bracing myself. Yeah, let me just ah get a timestamp here. ah We'll just vamp for a bit while I... No, that's not it.
00:09:11
Speaker
Does it involve puppets? ah No, it's weirder. It's both weird and not weird at the same time. It's odd. It's my jam, but we'll see. But I... Ugh... ah Let warn us up. And three, two, one, click.
00:09:30
Speaker
Editing Dave once again. V-A-Lure copyright their streams. You can follow the link in our show notes. The video shows the rear of a woman on a treadmill on the left, and on her right is her VTuber model heaving and making treadmill noises.
00:09:44
Speaker
Is she a centaur? I'm like, I'm looking at it. I'm like... It's It's fine. ah no i mean but it's It's fine. It's the thing, though. And this is what kind of struggle with. Again, like I said before, not the band I hate. It's their fans.
00:09:59
Speaker
Fine. You can like whatever you want. I just... Trying to, like, I don't get it. And that's fine. It's not for me to get. It's fine. People have their quirks. a red-blooded heterosexual man, and for fans who are not going to see a video clip, ah this is split-screen video. And on the left-hand side is a woman's rear on a treadmill wearing leggings. So you can, you know, look at her bum.
00:10:23
Speaker
And on the right-hand side from the waist up is her VTuber model. Who is interacting with chat and sort of heaving and, you know, tired because she's been a treadmill. This is a four-hour stream.
00:10:36
Speaker
And so when I talk about, like, not only just watching someone on a treadmill for hours seems like like i I have other things do. What's what saying? Like, there's something is going on. Is my mental image supposed to be that she's a cartoon from the waist up and a person from the waist down? know. What is Like, i just feel like, good again... i'd Whatever. do whatever you want. But when it's, it just feels like the communities around this are not, let's say, healthy.
00:11:04
Speaker
I don't know. yeah i mean, since but you think in the sense of like anyone sitting in their bedroom watching any video like that for four hours straight, it doesn't matter what it is.
00:11:16
Speaker
like What's going on? I don't know. Again, it's not my thing. It's not for me. Not for me to get. If you're out there not harming anybody. But again, you might
Controversy on Inclusivity and Content Production
00:11:25
Speaker
want to touch grass a little bit. I understand feet more than this. I i've thought about doing feet videos just because I'm like, you know.
00:11:33
Speaker
Oh, they do a lot of feet pictures on VLOR. So much. Yeah, maybe i should get into that. Just make a little bit extra scratch, you know, for my hobbies. But I don't know. My my feet, I'm so insecure about them. I don't think they're up to snuff, you know, I need to get like a.
00:11:47
Speaker
if you're yeah go get it it' your index toes If your index toe is longer than your big toe, that appears to be what they like. My three middle toes are all the same height.
00:11:59
Speaker
So it looks bizarre. They look like... It's like big toe, little toe, and then three like attached, like same size toes. So that could be freakish. Maybe there's like ah an an an initialism for that, where, ah yeah, you just get into the freak content. My second toe is longer than my big toe.
00:12:15
Speaker
Oh, there you go. You're in, Tracy. Only I don't like feet. I don't even like my own feet. She does not. ah It was years before I could give her photo. Really? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm not so insecure about that. It's just...
00:12:28
Speaker
it's the I don't know how to do it. like i i get a simple hold I didn't know what ah i don't know what's wrong with YouTube. My feet are hot. You know what? I don't think it's some, you know, it probably doesn't matter. I'd be willing to like step on cakes and you know, yeah do whatever they want you to do with your feet. Walk around in the mud for a bit. This is the thing, right? for For work for her, she gets to extra she gets to get her cardio in and get paid for it.
00:12:56
Speaker
not ah Not a bad gig. it's And it's it's this... Tracy, what do you think about all of this I think if I could get paid for doing cardio, I'd probably do more of it. Mm-hmm. Fair. and lee fans And again, what am I saying? if i i feel like if I was conventionally hot, and I could make... Well, let's see. I had a have a cousin who was on OnlyFans for a time.
00:13:21
Speaker
And I believe he was making something like $30,000 a month. Oh, wow. Now, even with it being a glutted market, it is ludicrous how much money can make people. And I'm sort of like, you know, don't know.
00:13:35
Speaker
I, it's too bad he didn't save any of that money. Cause I would do that. I could see doing that for a year be like, okay, I'm done live on my savings. yeah But yeah. Yeah. This is the thing, right? This is labor. This is work. ah They're paid well. They seem to like their jobs. They're treated well by their boss.
00:13:50
Speaker
The reason I shared this one is that ah I'm going to go into the one so kind of scandal with this company. And what I want to kind of stress here is that they're going to where the money is. They're going to where the fans are.
00:14:03
Speaker
And they are tapping into... the lonely weird guy demographic very deliberately because they know that's what plays well and that's what makes them money.
00:14:14
Speaker
I strongly believe that unlike Gunrun, Strawny Cuddles was very clever with her business plan here and knew exactly what she was going for. And it's about being profitable.
00:14:25
Speaker
And I'm not sure if the company turns a profit, but I'm sure the cash flow is good, right? they're They're very new. They're like a year and a half old. So let me go back to my lovely script.
00:14:38
Speaker
So I'm going to cover a kind of interesting controversy here, which goes back to the big hard works legacy i issue, which is trans rights. And introduce a new character here who is a fascinating one.
00:14:49
Speaker
Anna Valens. Anna Valens is an adult content creator, VTuber and journalist. She is openly trans and has been reporting in the online video game culture war space for like a decade now. So she came up and gave that name. It's familiar to me. us hmm.
00:15:05
Speaker
And she specializes in exactly what I'm talking about. And so when I do this work, I'm not standing on the shoulders of giants, but rather a giantess who does audio vor role play, if that's your kind of treat.
00:15:17
Speaker
All right. Does she? Her primary content is adult stuff. And this is very relevant. So she's also an activist journalist. Her work focuses on pointing out bigotry a lot of the time and sort of exposing the bad things in a lot of space, lot of things online.
00:15:39
Speaker
And it's very much part of the culture war. And ah she does this when she talks about V tubing. And I think it's fair to to say she's a provocateur and she loves kicking a hornet's nest.
00:15:49
Speaker
So April of 25, she publishes an article in Veeleer for Vice discussing the company and their audition practices. So I'm going to skip over some stuff she talks about, like the L word, which I will not explore further on this podcast. And instead, we'll talk about it off stream and instead focus on Veeleer's specification that they are only auditioning women.
00:16:14
Speaker
I'll quote, this quickly left trans VTubers confused. Why female instead of women? We figured out, i sorry, the only auditioning like female, they used it as an adjective, not a noun. So female performers. So it wasn't that weird, but nonetheless, why female instead of women?
00:16:30
Speaker
We figured this was a minor point of lin linguistic confusion. A number of us reached out for clarification last year to clear the air. We never heard back, not in emails or tweets, public statement, nothing.
00:16:41
Speaker
Trans talent quickly feared for the worst. Trans women aren't welcome. And Vialur was going to dodge the question by leaving the answer murky. So VTuber talent agencies tend not to specify gender when they audition, but rather trust people to read the room.
00:16:56
Speaker
Like Hollow Live has a male branch and a female branch. The female branch is far larger than the male one. If the female branch is asking for auditions, they don't specify they want women. They just assume you're going to woman.
00:17:08
Speaker
Via Lure specified women. And considering their entire brand is this very orthodox, heteronormative women for men performance, they're tapping into that and entire energy I've been talking about the whole podcast.
00:17:22
Speaker
So Valens sees the first English speaking Lutuber agency show up. And hey, she's a VTuber who does adult content. Even if she doesn't want a job, she sure as hell has colleagues who would want one.
00:17:33
Speaker
The article then moves on to cover how Veele was silent on whether trans women could apply until they opened their second round of auditions for phase two, like half a year later or so. I don't have the date in front of me.
00:17:45
Speaker
And they do a big Q&A stream. And ah again, veeler's very transparent about a lot of stuff so i'm going to quote directly from that stream and i'll try to match the tone because i the tone is important we are looking for female talent oh but what if i'm shut the fuck up do you go by female pronouns do you live life as a woman do you sound like a woman okay we don't care about anything else you're free to apply now mixed response yeah Trans people are welcome to apply, but they're also dismissing, and you see this endlessly, particularly in these spaces, what they think is some woke bullshit in order to underline trans people can apply if they pass.
00:18:28
Speaker
Now, Valence called them unprofessional and wanted to know what the hell sounds like a woman yeah even means. Yeah. Now, I'm sympathetic to Valens here and particularly sympathetic because she got dogpiled by transphobes for this article really badly.
00:18:43
Speaker
However, I think this article was a bit of barking up the wrong tree. And I'm going to tie it up with this theme of progressives picking these kinds of fights. Vealer would not hire a cisgender woman if her voice wasn't
Pipkin Pippa's Political Neutrality and Controversies
00:18:57
Speaker
feminine enough. Really? Like mine. Lots of cisgender. Yeah, I'm out. Yeah, I know. I mean, maybe you would, but you would have the, like, older adult woman voice, right? Because you both have deeper voices. Oh, right. We're hags.
00:19:10
Speaker
it's Exactly. you As hags. up But the point is, is that not every cisgender woman ah sounds like ah sounds young and breathy, which is the standard V-dumper voice.
00:19:21
Speaker
Right. So this is something I want to stress that and they are tying in from the very foundation of this company into women performing for men.
00:19:32
Speaker
Now, where does that leave trans and non-binary people? Well, it doesn't leave them anywhere because that ah because unfortunately, that's the like gender norms they're tying into. What they're saying is you could be trans if the fans don't know you're trans, is what it comes down to.
00:19:47
Speaker
So it's not necessarily trans exclusionary, but it's very trans medicalist. It's very non-binary trans people or trans people who don't want to do voice training or the voice training just never worked for them.
00:20:02
Speaker
But at the same time, the entire point of this company is to target a fairly and I mean, small C conservative. I don't mean like right wing, but like conservative fan base who want women to behave certain ways towards them.
00:20:16
Speaker
That's the entire foundational principle. And they're straight men. Now, straight men can definitely be into trans women as well. But that's either someone who is going to be ah like either more broad minded and not within their kind of demographic or frankly, a chaser, which is a fetishist. And that's gross.
00:20:35
Speaker
And you don't want to chase the chaser demographic like it's it's the wrong company for this fight. And I wish it wasn't the wrong company for this fight. But the entire thing here is this is about that conservative idol culture at the very back end of VTubing and seeing the money there and tying into this.
00:20:51
Speaker
None of the corporate VTubers ah have any major like major trans talent. As far as I'm aware, maybe it's maybe somebody again, if they pass and they're not out about it, then I don't know.
00:21:04
Speaker
But in terms of openly trans, Hololive, Nijisanji, Vishojo when it was going, ah like the other major companies, no, the trans VTubers are part of that underground, that resistance against these like, hmm.
00:21:16
Speaker
heteronormative gender forces. Like, again, with anime, you look at the most mainstream anime, it's very heteronormative, and then you go and you and and you read the wackier manga, and it's the gayest stuff you've ever read in your life.
00:21:29
Speaker
yeah Both of these exist at the same time, yeah and there's like a reappropriation of these ideas. And Veolar is on one side of this and Anna Valens is on the other.
00:21:40
Speaker
And the idea that Veolar should be on her side of it is sure, but it's just not that way. So why are you picking this fight? There's more interesting things to say about trans people and VTubing, in my opinion.
00:21:52
Speaker
Because it's sort of like it's one of those things where it's like, is this the place for it? Like, I don't know. like Right. And so and ah something else, V-Alert. V-Alert does not do lesbian content at all. That's right. There's a specific thing that it's going for. like And I guess it's like, well, fair enough.
00:22:09
Speaker
A specific audience and a specific type of content. It is kind of like... If you have like a Dracula's OnlyFans... When somebody's a werewolf and wants, well, you're not a Dracula.
00:22:21
Speaker
Does that make sense? No, that's terrible. I'm not comparing trans people to Draculas and werewolves. I'm just saying it's a totally abstract concept. I mean, some of them will, but no, and absolutely. it's idea ah It's just not the audience or not the content for the audience. i Whether we like it or not, it's just that's their niche.
00:22:38
Speaker
Shout out my werewolf enthusiast, trans friends and family. don't think it's werewolves. They're fine. Some Draculas. hot, in fact. ah But the ah but you're you're exactly right. It's, why aren't you this thing I want you to be?
00:22:52
Speaker
And again, and this is where it's the provocateur thing. Valens understands the space probably better than a lot of people. And so I think she went to pick a fight and she got one. Unfortunately, it was really consequential for her.
00:23:04
Speaker
She really was badly harassed because, again, the right wingers in the VTuber space are particularly deranged, which we're really going to get into with our last little story here. I guess to close this off, V alert does something which I think is tapping into a cultural force that's gross. ah It's misogynist, it's patriarchal, but also it is a agency run by women for women making a lot of money with those women. And they all seem pretty happy doing it.
00:23:31
Speaker
And if you're and this is like this is ethical sex work. It really does look like this. Please, for the love of God, don't prove me wrong. i know. I know. I'm just like, there shoot a drop though unfortunately. Yeah, I would have been saying that that V Shoujo was the greatest company ever in 2022, right?
00:23:45
Speaker
so But ah so far, their transparency is their strength, and I'm very happy with that. let's Let's go to the last company and the last story I have of this half-year V-tubing journey for me.
00:23:59
Speaker
Wow, yeah. You've been working on this for a long time, Dave. Yes. Excellent work. Oh my God, this has dominated my life. But I'm happy to hear... I'm lucky I can hear so fascinated. don't gotta... I'm so fascinated.
00:24:12
Speaker
Phase Connect is a Canadian company ah run out of Vancouver that was started in 2021 and is a front for a coffee company of all things. Really? When you say a front... Yes. Did not think you were front for coffee.
00:24:25
Speaker
It's a bit of a joke from the fans where the fans will say that the real business is coffee and the VTubers are just there to advertise the coffee, but they do both. is thing Now it is run by Kevin Lee, who is also known as H2O Sakana. I'm going to call him Sakana going forward.
00:24:43
Speaker
So Hololive and Ninja Sanity go for impeccable, world-class performer, idol-style, like, perfect VTubers. Vshojo went for these dynamite independent talents. V Allure is just horny.
00:24:56
Speaker
Phase Connect is the sad girl company.
Unique Culture at Phase Connect
00:25:00
Speaker
They are a collection of broken toys. They're notable for having the most mentally ill roster in V-tubing. Their talent yeah range from loudmouth degenerates to utterly incapable adults to extremely autistic.
00:25:13
Speaker
Often all three at once. Sakana seems to employ a fairly long leash on the behavior of his talents. And one thing I want to stress, they all seem pretty happy there and they're doing well.
00:25:24
Speaker
Like it works when it shouldn't. That's the big thing with Phase Connect is the talent seem to thrive. They really do. One talent was terminated for breach of contract, but it wasn't a scandal. It was just someone got fired and businesses fire people.
00:25:41
Speaker
I go to quote Fillion, who haven't talked about, hugely independent VTuber, not subject for this podcast. I have firmly believed for the past two years that they're going to grow.
00:25:51
Speaker
That's PhaseConnect. They're one of the few VTuber agencies in the entire industry who've continued to grow post-HoloLive days. I really think the CEO of PhaseConnect is a smart guy who hires really smart VTubers. You know why, chat?
00:26:04
Speaker
He makes sure they're mentally ill when he hires them. That way he doesn't have a reputation to maintain. I mean, it does remind me, did you guys ever watch Tim and Eric Awesome Show? a Great job.
00:26:15
Speaker
No. Brilliant. It's a brilliant show, actually. I think it's great. It's of favorite shows ever. But then the character, what not the guy, yeah David Liebehart, it's kind of like this, where he's this guy who's a very strange, weird person. And it's like, our he seems to having be having a good time on the show, singing his songs, and he's like puppets and stuff. And it's like, are you exploiting this man? But he seems to be having a good time.
00:26:38
Speaker
You know, he's clearly not necessarily, probably not altogether with it. Sakana is very, he's not Strawny Cuddles level transparent, but he's pretty transparent.
00:26:50
Speaker
He's very accessible to fans and does live question answer sessions with them semi-frequently. And he seems like a gentle, kind, thoughtful man. ah I have good energy coming from this guy.
00:27:05
Speaker
And there is very much a kind of patrimonial sense to it where ah he's like this sort of patient dad with all these wacky younger women working under him. But it has a more wholesome energy than you would expect. I genuinely think this is from what I can see an ethical company.
00:27:23
Speaker
Now, there is something to say about the politics of. And also, when indeed, particularly for fans, if this taps into anime tropes, to kind of infantilize... It goes back to the Henya thing, where she's not allowed to hold knives.
00:27:37
Speaker
And it's it's endearing, but you're also like, ah what are we doing here? How are power you are empowered as an adult, right? Yeah. Well, and some people are terrible at being adults. They genuinely are.
00:27:50
Speaker
And can't be. Again, I've worked with enough academics in my time that some of them ah can barely function as people, but they're very good at some things. There are people like that. I'm thinking i'm in my childhood bedroom from 30 years ago. Maybe I'm not very good at being an adult. So what the fuck am I talking about? Actually?
00:28:10
Speaker
Well, and I'll get into their top talent ah very shortly, but there is something about the politics of, oh, you know, she's depressed. I'm a fan. We've got this parasocial relationship. I'm helping her feel better. She's saying deranged, unhinged stuff because she's probably not well, but we're all in this for the fun. There is there is something that's a little, um I think exploitative is kind of the wrong word, but there ist there is a power relationship there that I'm not entirely comfortable with.
00:28:40
Speaker
However, Lord knows, I think that ah the politics of like the gender and sex politics of Viller are at least theyre it's a little simpler to say, well, it's kind of gross, but everyone's making money. So it's fine.
00:28:55
Speaker
In this case, it's it's complex and maybe not entirely pure, but I don't think anyone's getting hurt. And that's the thing I'll underline. And this is interesting. you know, what this reminds me of it reminds me of, you know Victorian turn of- the century freak shows.
00:29:10
Speaker
So-called, where people who with significant, you know, so-called deformities were born, you know, Siamese twins, people with all different different types of bodies. Lobster twins. Conjoined twins, I should say. People with all different kinds of bodies.
00:29:23
Speaker
Oh, no, no, yeah, the bearded lady, the geek the geek, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, and when they try to, people, you know, people who mean well say we we shouldn't be doing this. This is exploitative of these people.
00:29:34
Speaker
a lot of them said, no, it's not. This is how we make money. But to me, the the thing, I guess all of this, and this is my general problem with the world and with kind of all these stories, the general theme is everything being equal, would this be happening if we lived in a world where people actually were from birth able to be supported and to thrive?
00:29:54
Speaker
Here's my thing about V tubing. I genuinely believe. yes There are so many people who get into this for the love of the game. Northern King of Frogs, who's a VTuber recently launched and is a good friend of mine. I'm going to shout them out.
00:30:09
Speaker
ah They're doing this for love of the game. They're non-binary. They have an awesome model with a little frog hat. And ah they're kicking ass. And the streams are lovely. And I will shout them out again and send a link.
00:30:20
Speaker
People do this because they want to go online and entertain people and interact with them. Like, this is... this is like, like I'm a musician, right? I wrote the theme song up.
00:30:31
Speaker
I do this because i like to entertain. Would the violer style sex work exist it if all things created equal? And would only fans be what it is? Probably not.
00:30:42
Speaker
VTubing and video game streaming in general, I think would absolutely exist because, I mean, Tracy and I tried to get into it. right We found out it wasn't our thing. ah Now, and again, the the politics behind this, and particularly the gender politics of anime girls and what they're supposed to look like,
00:31:00
Speaker
really does create some strange dynamics there. But at the same time, anime fans like the way that looks and maybe there's some false consciousness there. That's fine.
00:31:11
Speaker
Every anime fan kind of has a complex relationship with it unless they're ah really uncritical. But I genuinely think that VTubing is a cool way for somebody to entertain people online in a way that's accessible to them and also lets them look like however they want.
00:31:28
Speaker
And that's kind of cool. At the same time, and the reason I'm telling these stories is the politics of actually doing this work and the labor conditions are fascinating. It is very, again, as a labor issue, as an ah issue of a capitalist society under which we're forced to live.
00:31:47
Speaker
We're going to go into some stuff you have more of an opinion on, but one second. ah So the company has expanded at a reasonable pace. It's about as old as V-Shoujo. So it's not brand new, considering that an old V-Tuber company is like seven years old. This is a four-year-old company.
00:32:03
Speaker
But it just quietly succeeds. Hmm. They have 37 talents now. And as far as I can tell, no major scandals. V Shoujo had several even before they collapsed. Right.
00:32:14
Speaker
ah Let alone. ah Now, again there is one scandal I'm going to get into, but it's not a scandal of company treatment of talent. It's a scandal about the talent itself. And what Sakana says is he's following a business plan.
00:32:26
Speaker
And someone asked, is the company profitable? He said the company is cash flow positive. no, it's not profitable yet because it's not supposed to be profitable yet. That's not how you set up. And I'm like, bingo, this guy knows what he's talking about.
00:32:39
Speaker
He's about, uh, exactly. It's about investment, investment, investment, cashflow, cashflow, cashflow.
Internet Culture and Misinformation
00:32:44
Speaker
So while Vialur has this like radical transparency about the talent contracts and how they're treated.
00:32:51
Speaker
So Khan is transparent about the business model and its viability. And also is as far as I can tell, genuinely kind to the talent, which does say a lot. Uh, ah Because, again, Gunrun didn't expose himself to the fans quite like Sakana does, and they could roast him if they wanted.
00:33:08
Speaker
So I'm going to move to the big story here to close off all of this and talk about my absolute favorite VTuber and one Jen fucking hated the moment she heard her. Pipkin Pippa. Yeah.
00:33:21
Speaker
yeah Okay, so Pipkin Pippa is ah the top talent from Phase Connect. She's sort of their, ah she's like their Iron Mouse, except not nearly as popular. She's like a mid-level VTuber.
00:33:34
Speaker
And she is a kind of a shock jock. She's blunt. She's plain spoken. She rants. She doesn't have like a cute little breathy voice. She is her early 30s, I think.
00:33:47
Speaker
And she is very small town. And because I come from a small town, I really relate to her energy. She is this she is brilliant, but uneducated and deeply mentally ill.
00:34:01
Speaker
ah Her stories of her bedroom at home, which are kind of a running gag now, are of of a shut-in who never left her bedroom and just lived in her own filth. We're talking moldy dishes so bad it affected the air quality, a drawer that she vomited in, and even keeping her own jars of urine so she didn't have to go to the bathroom. That's fascinating to me, actually. She's recordinged recounting these. and She owns it. ah She now genuinely has moved out from her parents' house and lives in an ah RV and just drives around like a human raccoon.
00:34:31
Speaker
She is terminally online, going so far as she dropped out of high school to make Overwatch videos. o ah Pippa is a reject in that she ah desperately wanted to be in Hollow Life.
00:34:45
Speaker
Her dream was a VTuber. They wanted nothing to do with her. And so Phase Connect turned out to be better home for her. And she debuted with Phase Connect, so she passed an audition to join up.
00:34:55
Speaker
Because, again, Sakana, I think, looks for loudmouth degenerates. um So... Pippa loves inappropriate humor and line treading jokes about anything you can think of.
00:35:08
Speaker
If you're familiar with Jimmy Carr, no it's kind of that. So Jimmy Carr is not telling outright bigoted jokes. However, he'll tell jokes about bigotry and toe line, which he's occasionally crossed, but he's not like telling outright racist jokes, for example.
00:35:26
Speaker
She is, ah but she loves to do this and finds inappropriate humor, the funniest shit in the world. um She's at lives and we're going to go deep into this. Don't you worry. She is a live subject for debate about whether or not she's right wing.
00:35:40
Speaker
And ah so people have posted saying she's an outright Nazi, which amuses her. And I'll quote and have of her explaining her. paul She sounds great. Really like a nice person. I, yeah I adore her. And yeah.
00:35:55
Speaker
Yeah. Favorite VTuber. I'll get into it. ah My family is always trying to find out what my politics are. And it's funny, both online and in a real life, everyone wants to know what my politics are. And I never give a straight answer. So people will try to rile me up by saying politically charged things. And I'm like, oh, I mean, I can understand why you feel that way.
00:36:13
Speaker
And not to brag, I've gotten very good at not giving a straight answer to politics, deadpan and stay neutral. I am a fence sitter because you know what? My opinion doesn't matter. I don't care. And I do not want to learn.
00:36:24
Speaker
When I was younger, I was very political. And now I'm older and realize how little the average person's matter. Person's opinion matters. And that does make some people really mad where it's like, ah, just by doing that, you're taking a side.
00:36:35
Speaker
And it's like, well, you know what? I don't want to be around you. Ah, shit, you found me out. Oh, fuck. Well, I guess you should go find somebody else to talk about that with. mean, I guess. so Okay, Eric Kirtman. The whole, like, that's the thing she, again, i just have a problem with, I'm sarcastic and I tell it like it is. Like, okay, what is this, 1998?
00:36:54
Speaker
Like, honestly, I just, I feel like the whole, like, I'm sorry, the whole, I have a problem with that sort of snideness where I don't take any side. man Because you obviously are taking a side when you do that.
00:37:05
Speaker
Well, and it's interesting. This is entirely what we're getting into here because this is a political view I strongly get.
Political Climate and Public Perception Complexities
00:37:12
Speaker
Don't certainly don't share. I'm as political as you get. But you get people who haveve never received a lick of support from society and they see these political battles raging around them.
00:37:22
Speaker
And all they see is bullshit because the outcome will hurt them no matter what it but how it comes out. So you have this like sick woman who is defiant and genuinely an iconoclast.
00:37:33
Speaker
Whatever everyone wants her to do is she says, fuck you, and does the opposite. Because again, this is someone who is deeply screwed up and traumatized. When Pippa says she stays out of politics, like this also means she's not bothered by somebody else being a conservative.
00:37:47
Speaker
You're a good hang. You're a good hang because we're not talking about politics. So she's collaborated with figures who are not so great. and is famously great friends with possibly the most controversial VTuber, Kersha.
00:37:59
Speaker
And Kersha is an alt-right VTuber who embraces all of the usual right-wing talking points, particularly about issues like trans people. She sucks. Honestly. And, oh no, Kersha's awful. Kersha's notably Mortal Enemies with Anna Valens, the journalist.
00:38:15
Speaker
Valens wrote a series of articles about Kersha's politics and her ties to a major VTuber ah sponsor called Gamersupps, which is another rabbit hole, but I won't go into. But ah Anna was basically taking a run at Kirscher to get her to lose that sponsor.
00:38:31
Speaker
Kirscher threatened to sue when Vice took the articles down because they had some gun-shy new corporate overlords. Come the fuck on. Ooh, good job, Vice. Yeah, they're not great, too. And I'm sure they weren't sympathetic. Vice. Vice are a shell of their former selves. Their former selves being problematic to begin with, but, like, they have a gun-shy new owner, saw controversy, and just took the articles down.
00:38:51
Speaker
And no, Kershia sucks. Not a Kershia fan. Screw her. I came across a Kershia video doing research on VLIR and my God, with this sha that got transphobic. Being friends with people like that normalizes it.
00:39:04
Speaker
And here's the thing too. I'm just goingnna well i'm going to inject a little rant here. the whole idea of like, oh, well, if somebody's a good hang, it doesn't matter if they're conservative. That's going to come out though. That kind of thing's going to out. i don't have a lot of conservative friends because often the people I know who are conservative aren't very nice.
00:39:19
Speaker
either so it's kind of like well it's hard for me like or even if they're nice and they don't believe trans people should exist or they don't believe in women's rights i'm like yeah you're not fair you're not really real well and this is the thing right is if you are in a space where trans rights are the political thing everyone's fighting about and you're like fuck this i'm not learning about it i don't want to deal with this it's stressful i don't understand it i'm not getting involved Then this friend that everyone says is a transphobia, like I'm not engaging in that conversation.
00:39:54
Speaker
Now, there are consequences to that. And neutrality does side with the oppressor. Comma. Again, with this is we're spoilers about where this goes. Right now. Another thing about Pippa is she is an outright conspiracy theorist because she is a smart, uneducated, small town girl.
00:40:11
Speaker
This is the doom of many people ah who, again, come from that kind of background. Everyone who lives around me is a conspiracy theorist. She's not an idiot about it and often reviews conspiracy theories to mock how dumb they are because she wants to find the good ones. So she also, and this one's interesting, doesn't use her channel as a soapbox for vaccines or climate denial or the big conspiracy theories that are the right wing talking point.
00:40:37
Speaker
I can't find anything from her on this stuff. Rather, it's more the government's out to get us. I don't trust the federal government. They're behind the bad things in a ah and she'll tear apart. And like I saw a couple things. She tears apart like an event and how the government's behind it. It's that kind of stuff.
00:40:54
Speaker
But it's not. um And although there is all sorts of problems in conspiracism, she kind of avoids going into the rabbit holes one would expect. So one would expect her to do so because I know people into conspiracy theories and they go mega pretty quick. Mm hmm.
00:41:11
Speaker
Because that's a pipeline. And she isn't. And that's interesting. Is it though? Because what I hear is ignorant person rambling about bullshit. who And is mean.
00:41:23
Speaker
Mean ignorant person rambling about bullshit. I don't care about. That's not true. ah She's not mean. Well, no, she's blunt. ah She's loud mouthed, but she's not like, ah like she is. ah but Regardless, ignorant person rambling about bullshit.
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah, not much of an appeal. That's just me. Well, and and no, and and that's fair. I'm I'm and i I don't. Well, and the reason why she's popular and liked ah and by me and by other people on the left, because as a spoiler, Anna Valens is a big fan of Pippa Pipkin or Pipkin Pippa.
00:42:05
Speaker
who is somebody that goes out of her way to hunt down and cancel people. And it's because she is extremely smart and witty. She's ignorant in that she's not educated because she grew up horribly mentally ill and dropped out of high school and now lives in an ah RV entertaining people online.
00:42:25
Speaker
And so she is who she is for a reason, but she is, ah i think, kind of genuinely brilliant and has a weird sense of integrity to her to where I'm going to get in because she is going to get into a lot of trouble um in a way that ah is obvious to anyone who knows the problem of being offensive.
00:42:44
Speaker
But the other tie here is character growth. But we'll go into this because 2023, for the last time, Hogwarts Legacy comes out. Wait, a again? Oh, yeah, yeah. It's the same launch. This is the same event. It didn't come out multiple times. Same launch, same launch. No, no, we're going back to 2023 because this is the third Hardworks Legacy mentioned in this podcast.
00:43:05
Speaker
Pippa was very aware of what happened to Pikmi in Silvervale, Pikmi being Henia, and she hates Harry Potter. Hates it. Okay, well, now I like her. I'm sorry. But she also doesn't understand why Hogwarts Legacy is a rallying cry because people are not applying consistent approach to other horrible companies or like capitalist enterprises.
00:43:28
Speaker
And so the inconsistency about this and also
Challenges in Educating Society
00:43:31
Speaker
the harassment of people she likes really got at her and said, this game is wildly successful. This Twitter outrage mob is not a real thing.
00:43:40
Speaker
And so as a fuck you to everyone, she streamed Hogwarts Legacy. Now, this is where being a fence sitter comes in. So she does this very popular small town thing, which is not being outright racist or bigoted, making like, for example, a kind of joke would be like I would be like a sign says no racist all allowed. It's like, oh, well, I'm a racist and I'm going in anyways. The joke is she's not a racist, but it's funny to be a little edgy like that.
00:44:06
Speaker
And that is, you know, and whatever it's. But what this does, and because she's such a fence setter, is she got not like an entirely right wing fan base, but the right wingers saw her as one of them.
00:44:20
Speaker
And so they started to congregate in her stream because she is towing the line with edgy jokes and finds. And if the fans and a a fan says like,
00:44:31
Speaker
a joke that crosses the line a little bit and it's inappropriate, she'll immediately laugh because like being inappropriate is funny to her. Right. And it's not that it's coming from a place of political agenda or hate, but rather it's creating the Nazi bar problem. That's right. The Nazi bar problem being it's this anecdote of a bartender kicks a guy out of his bar who was a Nazi, but wasn't bothering anyone.
00:44:57
Speaker
And he says, if you let that guy in, then is all his friends are going to show up and then you're running a Nazi bar. That's right. Mm-hmm. And so Pippa ran into a growing problem where, and I kind of think that her moderators, because moderators love doing this, probably did have a bit of an agenda.
00:45:17
Speaker
This is speculation on my part. Well, I genuinely believe she did not. The chat were getting away with stuff they shouldn't have and going too far. And she doesn't have the political tools to know what's going on here.
00:45:29
Speaker
Because no matter how smart she is, by refusing to engage in any kind of political discourse, This means that she's vulnerable to people shouting oy vey, oy vey, oy vey when she makes an off-color New World Order joke. Right? great That shit happens. This is the yes solve the problem. yeah but i'm sure you know This is the Nazi bar problem. Go ahead, sorry.
00:45:50
Speaker
And yeah absolutely. So when she starts streaming Hogwarts Legacy, the w right who were using this as a giant rallying cry hold her up as a symbol of the right.
00:46:02
Speaker
they're And so they're diving into her chat. And all of this discourse is about how Pippa is a hero of the transphobes, which is not what she's trying to do. But because she's avoiding this problem, she steps into it.
00:46:13
Speaker
So famous left-wing streamer Vosh, not a fan. ah of ah I'm not a fan. up Straight up called her a Nazi, citing a stream with a One World Government Oy Vey chats.
00:46:25
Speaker
Pippa's response was to call him a horse fucker. Feel free to go Google that. um And this blew up. And so she had a moment of a centerpiece of the culture war. Sorry. Her response was... to I'm not Googling horse fucker, but i just got stuck on that. No, no. You would Google horse. Is it?
00:46:43
Speaker
I'm sorry. I wouldn't. I can't. I can't. Not my hands. it It was in a Discord chat where turned out he was into horse stuff. Oh, God, really? Yeah, something like that. I don't recall. I just wanted to Google it joke and now you're Googling it Vosh is one of these streamers who i has a very debate bro kind of thing and talks left wing politics in this assertive white man kind of way and has these fans who like rely on him for all their political analysis. And I hate that stuff. I've never I've heard his name, but I haven't bothered to look into him at all. And now I have.
00:47:18
Speaker
And that's what my search history. And I guess that's going to take further research on my part later because it it sounds very fucked up. I need to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, we can carry on. I'm sorry got sidetracked. Yeah, absolutely. Feel free to Google Vosh, a Vosh horse fucker on your own time. So ah Pippa sends the following post.
00:47:35
Speaker
I'm not into that stuff, to so you know. Allegedly. Notice, it's nice to meet you all. It's been a hectic past few days and I'm not sure how to word this properly. While I do appreciate all the kind messages, I don't appreciate being used as an excuse to attack other people.
00:47:49
Speaker
Let's not shet fling and attack other people's identities. If I see it, I'll be blocking and banning you from my community like I do the rest of the trolls and bullies. Do not try to misinterpret my words and use me as a banner to attack other people.
00:48:01
Speaker
Now, did the company tell tell her to post that? Maybe. I hope so, in fact. ah Now, is this good enough is another question. But attack other people. This could cut both ways, though.
00:48:13
Speaker
Don't be attacking my Nazi fans because that's kind of the angle. No, this is very. No, this is very clearly about the trans people. The Nazi fans weren't under attack. contact No, this is very clearly about ah people holding her up as a banner for transphobia. Okay.
00:48:31
Speaker
And I see an interesting thing here. Pip had an opportunity. She could have gone full mega and dove in headfirst with this crowd she curated and become bigger than Phase Connect. Genuinely believe that.
00:48:44
Speaker
She walked it back. This, of course, pissed off everyone, but she did it anyways and was just remained consistent and pushed through. So she shed herself of this stuff and over the past couple of years has genuinely walked back the shock jock stuff.
00:49:01
Speaker
um She's still ah unhinged and again, loves an inappropriate joke. But one of her lines was, I also want to protect the other girls in this agency so that if I say shit, it gets us in trouble.
00:49:14
Speaker
I don't want them to bear the blame for it. She's older than most of the rest of them. And the kind of ah not only do I feel that she matured from this, But she displayed integrity, which is something I always crave in other people um because she's still in neutral.
00:49:32
Speaker
And frankly, i don't think my line is always if there's a neutral one, the left should have done a better job trying to recruit them. Genuinely. Uh, and when you just go, well, you're a transphobe, I hate you and you're a Nazi. Well, why the hell would she join up? What's in it for her?
00:49:46
Speaker
And this is, goes back to my basic politics of, I'm pretty sure with a good conversation, I could get, I could radicalize her, but you got to talk about the right things and the right language. So it's interesting though, because something that was appealing about this individual was that she was ignorant.
00:50:00
Speaker
But what this tells me is that, oh, what she realized was, oh, learning things is actually good. Like knowing stuff actually is good and helpful. Like... Ignorant is maybe the wrong word. It's that she is... mean ignorant in the in the sense of not having been educated.
00:50:17
Speaker
And it's not a pejorative. But it's all about how learning is good, basically. Well, and she is knowledge hungry and learns all the time, but she deliberately doesn't learn about the stuff everyone's fighting about. Because it does like a bit of... When you say, oh, it's kind of like... You call this guy blue and they're going to fight with you. It does sound like a little bit of oppositional defiant disorder.
00:50:39
Speaker
Like, I think this is what we're doing in politics today, which is a huge problem where people who are just, oh, you tell me to do something to help other people. I'm not going to do it. Like anti-maskers. It seems like a strain of that to a degree.
00:50:50
Speaker
But I'm not a psychiatrist. It absolutely is. This ties in with the entire populist small town thing that I'm talking about and why in our small town ah anti-masking was a big deal because of that mistrust of the government.
00:51:04
Speaker
And again, this comes down to do we say that all the individuals are dumb people or do we recognize that the government actually failed them and that the people who are supposed to be bringing them on to our ideas did a bad job of it and we need to do better? I have a hard time with that to a degree, just because what I've I'm gradually coming to believe and think is I, in my job, I think a lot about misinformation and sharing quality information, trustworthy information. And what I am starting to think to realize is no, people are seeking out what they want.
00:51:41
Speaker
It's very difficult to reach people who just do not want to be reached. Because if you look at online, you look at the internet, we are people have always believed in bullshit. And I'm going to get to this in my podcast episode a couple in a couple of weeks. But there are ways to debunk things, but people have to want to have their beliefs challenges and i challenge. And I really feel like the problem isn't so much education anymore.
00:52:06
Speaker
it is some people just want to believe. what they want to believe and yet just there's a percentage of them that just cannot be reached we have the capacity now for information to debunk anything if we wanted to within five seconds and we don't well and there's a few reasons for that first of all algorithms and uh corporate forces and how our social media feeds into endless validation of pre-existing beliefs to the point that debunking just feels like a validation of beliefs because you trigger psychological backfire exactly yeah exactly so yeah there's
00:52:40
Speaker
But the reason I say we need to do a better job is the alternatives to throw up our hands and say humanity is doomed and that all resistance in the past failed for the same reason because people inherently. And I think that that's a hopeless way to think about. Yeah, there's people you write off.
00:52:55
Speaker
But, for example, if the only concept people have of left wing politics is. If you don't believe this thing or say this thing, you're an inherently bad person who's a bigot and awful rather than you're being underpaid and screwed over.
00:53:13
Speaker
Let's work with these people who are also being screwed over and get something better for you personally, understanding you've got a common cause with them. That message is gone. yes wo It's all culture war bullshit. Because because of what I would continue with saying is, yeah, theres there isn't and there's a propaganda war. And I really think, obviously, like, there's no real meaningful left in North America, I would say. I mean, Mexico, yes, but Canada, the States, not really a strong left because of propaganda and because of just the relentless drumming of communism and socialism are evil, ah all this. But in the same token, like what, there might not be winning some of the information war. I think that's part of it. We don't give up, obviously. We still keep educating people, but it is, again, getting out there and actually doing real physical material things. Like actually...
00:53:59
Speaker
making changes is what kind of what you need to do to kind of push people over into things like, I don't know, evidence-based because, i and again, I would say with misinformation, most people, again, you present them evidence that dis that disproves what they believe, they're going to reject you and whatever.
VTuber Industry Dynamics
00:54:14
Speaker
But you can just win people over gradually by evidence-based practice and education and stuff, all these things. It's why I actually prioritize organizing over education in some ways and in some ways, which is rather than try to disprove what they believe, lead them to a point of common agreement you already have and work on that.
00:54:33
Speaker
Because when they join up, they'll start to question those old beliefs. yes If you just attack their beliefs, they' going they're going to resist. Exactly. So, yeah, it's it's like, and and I also genuinely believe that for the most part, people are not raging bigots who are anti-evac. It's also a very, very small group of people who generally are using it to monetize and exploit other people. And there's ah there's ah there's a monetary factor involved for a lot of people. If you were just like,
00:55:02
Speaker
a normal person interacting with somebody who maybe has out there beliefs. You interact with them. You work together on common causes. Cause it kind of, what this used what this you YouTuber is saying too, is it kind of doesn't matter what she really believes.
00:55:14
Speaker
Kind of who cares? Yes. It is. exactly yes What is the material outcome? That is fundamental to everything I'm talking about in this podcast. Yeah, ultimately it's kind of who cares. It's like the politics of individual VTubers don't matter unless they're political actors. Kyrsha is a political actor, right?
00:55:34
Speaker
But Silvervale was not playing Hogwarts Legacy and Pipkin Pippa sure as hell is not a political actor. She stumbled into it and became a political subject and hated it.
00:55:45
Speaker
But this is like, she is an entertainer and she's not hurting anybody. This is like fundamental. Now that said, I'll i'll get into an interesting thing here, but before I go on, after Jen and I just ranted at each other, how you doing, Tracy? I want to go back if we have a second to the coffee.
00:56:06
Speaker
Oh, the coffee. I'm going back. I'm going to continue to. okay We're going to talk the coffee. Don't you worry. I have opinions about the coffee. I That's so funny. I forgot about the coffee.
00:56:16
Speaker
so fired up. So today, Pippa has largely shed herself of, ah well, sort of. There is debate about her constantly. She has a cleaner image than she did. She's a little less, ah like, if you want to see streams of the worst things that ever happened with Pippa, they're all kind of pre-2024, right?
00:56:37
Speaker
ah There's nothing new because people change. And she, and again, she still hangs out with Kershaw, but ultimately, I'm not going to do guilt by association. She is not entirely free of her association with the right, which brings me back to that Anna Valen's article where Anna defends her.
00:56:55
Speaker
In December 2024, a 19-year-old was arrested for brandishing a gun at No Kings protesters. And I'm going to show you what he posted on Twitter because it's absolutely wild.
00:57:07
Speaker
There's two images, ah but This is what he posted before showing up at the No Kings protest with a big gun.
00:57:16
Speaker
That's not great. For those who are ah audio only, that is an image of Pippa on what kind of looks like a flag or something with a revolver on the right and then a copy of Democracy, The God That Failed on the left, which is ah very much an anti-democratic sort of ah Curtis Yarvin style creepy fascist book.
00:57:40
Speaker
The other image, which I couldn't share, is a picture of the gun he brought with Pipkin Pippa written on the side of a shotgun. Great. Now, here's and again, he didn't kill anybody. He just showed up and maybe lost the nerve. Thank God.
00:57:57
Speaker
Nonetheless, there's still some folks out there. But I also but then I want to quote Anna Valens, who, again, i associate with being one of the most if there's one drop of evil, you're canceled kind of people because her view on this yeah was interesting to me.
00:58:13
Speaker
Here's the thing. If you're getting anywhere near being associated with right-wing terrorism, you're fucking up. You're fucking up. I'm sorry. Like, that's just my opinion.
00:58:24
Speaker
Well, oh, absolutely. But the question is do that. It's not hard not to be affiliated with fucking Ray. Well, here here's Valen's article. Look, Pippa isn't responsible for some far right teenager waving a gun around. She didn't tell the kid the kid to go get agro at a no kings protest in Nashville, nor did she tell him to arm himself, scratch the name pip Pipkin Pippin in a shotgun and read a book Cropula with Curtis Yarvin.
00:58:49
Speaker
Yes, Pippa's sense of humor is edgy, but she's not a pundit. She's a shock jock. And she's not preaching political talking points directly to her audience. Now, this is one of those things of should she be doing everything in her power to like expel this kind of person from her fan base?
00:59:04
Speaker
But more to the point, did she radicalize him or was he just like a screwed up 19 year old who was radicalized by a lot of forces and just happened to really like Pipkin Pippa? oh Probably the latter. Right. but if you're said That's the problem, though. If you get anywhere near that, like because i think this is a good illustration of the adage that you might not care about politics, but one day it's going to care about you.
00:59:25
Speaker
You kind of. Well, this is exactly what happened to her about politics. And unfortunately, unfortunately, in this day and age, you're going to have to pick a side. you know Well, and i strong and again, I strongly believe people should pick a side.
00:59:40
Speaker
But ultimately, we can't hope that people will spontaneously do that. And there just needs to be a better job done of ah bringing them on and finding tools that work. Because movements have been created before.
00:59:53
Speaker
We just have a kind of new ecosystem we're working within. And genuinely, I think the culture war stuff has completely subsumed any left-wing talking points. Because although trans rights are essential, important, and vital, if that's the only concept people have of the left, there's no self-interest.
01:00:12
Speaker
It's only about helping the other person who you don't understand and haven't met. Yes. And where's yeah and and where's the self-interest in that? So anyways, up trying to. So closing this off is that ah there is a well articulated argument that you've made. In fact, Jen, which is what Pippa does is she reinforces norms of the right, and possibly without without intending to by being neutral. And she creates a welcome space for something to congregate.
01:00:39
Speaker
This is true. h I don't really care. There's mass secret police kidnapping people off the streets in broad daylight and getting mad at a cartoon rabbit playing video games and making crass jokes is not exactly where you need to be spending your political energy.
01:00:52
Speaker
And the reason I'm talking about this and expending my political energy is just to talk about phase connecting the kind of things that VTubers deal with, but also that they're a, because they're a hot up and coming industry, the real lightning rod for ah for culture war style controversy.
01:01:11
Speaker
And there is such an energy within ah progressives in the left that, to focus on the thing they're a fan of and make that the most important political battlefield. Oh, yeah. And that's what we got us doing. That's not helpful either. God. No, it's actually, we do need to focus on actual change in the real world. and Yeah. Because again, the fandom stuff, all this to me also strikes me as...
01:01:34
Speaker
kind of a waste of everyone's energy. Like, it's fine if it's fun. but like I say, if it's you're consuming your entire life, if you are screaming and crying live because your VTuber fantasy turns out to be in a relationship, if this is consuming your life like this, like the whole. Yeah, you we again, people need to really, I think, break away from the online situation.
01:01:57
Speaker
Like I'm, I'm less online than you guys too, I think. So i don't know as much, but I'm like, people need to just get out i more and like not spend so much energy on again, kind of bullshit stuff, but actually, yeah. Doing real world. And who might've talk, right? Like I don't, what do I do? But still.
01:02:13
Speaker
ah Well, and the thing is that, uh, and again, there's, you know, everything is this way for a reason. And the, but yeah, the big problem is people believing that their fandom spaces,
01:02:27
Speaker
are the political battlefield where they can spend the most time now yeah that's i actually believe this is real i believe this is real world uh because the internet is real but it doesn't matter and ah how if pipkin pippa is a nazi is one of the like so what if she is what are you going to do about it probably deplatform them Well, and like, okay, so do you, ah how is that working for like, I don't know, Nick Fuentes? Well, he's been platform. There was working.
01:02:55
Speaker
Well, but this, ah but, or not how, how about Donald Trump? Right. The, the point is, is that they're winning. And so the notion that winning online, well, if we could not necessarily winning. No, no, no.
01:03:08
Speaker
Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. ah In the US, they're in charge right now. Right. Straight up yeah ah in Alberta. Yeah, they're winning. And so the notion that we need to spend our political energy fighting about Hogwarts Legacy and who is playing it.
01:03:26
Speaker
Because if you spend a if you stream Hogwarts Legacy, well, then that money will go to a video game developer of which J.K. Rowling gets a cut. And J.K. Rowling, who's already a billionaire, this will then fund her anti-trans work, which can then have an ah an effect on UK political discourse. like Meanwhile, there are governments passing anti-trans laws right now.
01:03:47
Speaker
like But it all ties together because it's part of the same ecosystem. Pull your head out your ass. yeah I get that. But it is it's part of the same ecosystem, though, because it is true. Purchasing Harry Potter products will have a material outcome of harming trans people.
01:04:01
Speaker
Like, it's that's a pretty, to me, a pretty clear connection. And again, same with the right wing politics. You might not really care what a VTuber thinks. But if it is normalizing, and this is a problem I have with X now too, it's people being slowly like boiled like frogs in more and more fascist and disgusting rhetoric about immigrants, people of color and women.
01:04:22
Speaker
and it is again, i I just kind of said people believe what they want. and Nobody, but there's also nobody's really mean to propaganda either. Right. So it's hard to persuade people. So yeah, I think we we agree on the basics. People need to be focusing on better messaging real world material condition.
01:04:39
Speaker
Or just organizing, then driving towards political action that'll make a difference. The right know how to do it. The left doesn't. And that's the problem. Well, and they have a lot more money.
01:04:49
Speaker
But part of my point, too, is that a lot of it's astroturfed as well. Like the average person does not give a shit a about either way. No, they ah that's exactly it. But the laws are still getting passed.
Phase Connect's Coffee Venture and Podcast Conclusion
01:05:03
Speaker
Anyways, so we're going to solve that today, I suppose. Unfortunately not. So closing off on Pippa, the one thing I want to be clear is she's very direct and honest. In one amazing stream, she interviewed the CEO of a failed VTuber corpo called uwu.tv and was merciless in tearing apart his terrible business ideas.
01:05:24
Speaker
ah His attempt to be nice with no clue, like ruining some lives of his talents while with these vague ideas and even like pitching insane ideas like marketing sex toys moed molded on the genitals of his talents.
01:05:38
Speaker
That's not that out there. And without them quite knowing what like where he was going. and so But Pippa completely tore this guy apart. Ultimately, I see somebody with integrity.
01:05:50
Speaker
And even though, yeah, I'd really wish she'd pick a side and pick the right one. You know, you got to deal with what you have in front of in front of her. And I respect her for having a sense of self and sticking with it, despite the fact that she could have gone Alex Jones.
01:06:05
Speaker
That's true. genuinely and probably been a big deal my position on her and that's fair uh if i push you from you know what if i push you from hostile to neutral that's good organizing i kind of lie it's neutral to hostile i was trying to make a broader point but actually i can't be a fence sitter oh right right right yeah you too right right i forgot it's a point about being a fence sitter i'm an idiot that's okay So I'm finally coming to the close here.
01:06:31
Speaker
And so I just want to like go back to the two major issues that I'm talking about in this very new kind of labor that is huge, primarily women with a with a decent amount of men and a lot of non-binary and trans people on the independent side of things is that This is labor.
01:06:50
Speaker
We're going to see more of it. And there are vultures out there looking to take advantage of these people, maybe a handful of decent companies. And there are different ways as people go forward to try to make this kind of job work.
01:07:02
Speaker
And ultimately, even though it's weird and my God, it is weird. These are people doing a job who deserve respect and they deserve like, you know, stability, benefits and decent treatment and maybe to be unionized employees. Just a thought.
01:07:17
Speaker
Hmm. And at the same time, because V-Tubing comes from this position of neutrality, which has a back-end conservative vibe to it, they sit atop the roiling culture war that goes on out within their fan base and gets sucked into it again and again.
01:07:33
Speaker
And genuinely, and I think this is something you start to see, you saw with YouTube in its early days to today, I think ditching this idol-style neutrality would do everyone a lot of favors. ah Genuinely.
01:07:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's probably terrifying to state a political opinion when there's a bunch of right-wing assholes out there. but ah And some VTubers, because they are... like terminally online shut-ins are not particularly political.
01:07:58
Speaker
Just now, right a scandal right now Zentreya, major V shoujo talent, she ah like had a bunch of art associate associated with her character who has a kind of Starship Troopers military kind of aspect to it.
01:08:12
Speaker
that was outright art based off of Nazi rallies. And so everyone started shouting about how she's, you cosplaying as a Nazi. And what it turns out, and I believe this is the artist she commissioned pulled these images from an anime because the anime was ah but pulled, ah pulled from like Star Wars was doing that kind of stuff recently in the recently in episode seven, where everything was very like Nazi rally looking.
01:08:36
Speaker
But the point is, is that she started shouting about these insane woke leftists out to get her because everyone started calling her a Nazi. And she's like, what the hell are you talking about? Yeah, she the stepped in it and the artist should have known better and maybe looked at where this anime got their ideas.
01:08:52
Speaker
But at the same time, trying to decode if Zentrei is a Nazi or not, what are you doing? She's not a Nazi. um She's been streaming for like eight years and is...
01:09:03
Speaker
like not even stepped into the Pippa stuff, who's also not a Nazi. There's open Nazis out there. You can find them. They're just out in the streets. Like they're right there. Here is the crux of the problem though, because these people, obviously, they don't know what, if they couldn't recognize that as a Nazi uniform, they're not, if they don't understand any of this context, their education, they're being failed educationally.
01:09:26
Speaker
That's part of the issue. yeah People need to learn about this stuff. And the, but here's the issue. I guess this is where the crux is. Doesn't help if you want to be a loudmouth YouTuber to also be ignorant. Like, this is like this is the Joe Rogan issue, right?
01:09:41
Speaker
Loudmouth, a huge audience, doesn't know shit. And that's kind of the problem. It could be a point of pride to be whatever, but... ultimately though sort of the crux of the issue here but that's yeah absolutely and yeah and and again i think actually and i wanted to talk about joe rogan briefly is if we compare joe rogan to pippa the big thing that happened is joe rogan went hard to the right pippa pulled back much earlier than joe rogan did and that sense of so and that's why i respect her and don't respect joe rogan anyways the last thing i wanted to end this with was a toast
01:10:17
Speaker
Right. I'm a coffee enthusiast. I have an expensive espresso machine that my dear wife put up with. Jen is binging coffee all the time. And Face Connect is a coffee company. And you can buy lovely bags of coffee with your with your Oshie on them. You sort of your ideal VTuber with a custom roast. So the palate matches the personality.
01:10:37
Speaker
And again, I like my fancy coffee. Double fermented Costa Rican coffee would celebrate Pipkin Pippa's personality. I bet she's a little acidic. Or perhaps the dark and brooding flavor of Dizzy Dokuro, high-stand Ethiopian volcanic coffee for the delightful Leah, or the bold flavor of unfiltered autism with your very own cup of Remilia Nephes.
01:10:57
Speaker
So of course, I wanted to order a bag and review it on stream. Use my espresso machine, pull it just right so I get the exact ratio, and you can have a proper taste test from a coffee enthusiast talking about VTubers.
01:11:10
Speaker
I thought it would be the perfect way to end this podcast. It would cost 90 fucking dollars! Oh, no! I said no. $90 to order Phase Connect coffee. It's a tariff. Which I have to... It's a tariff, isn't it? They're a Canadian company! oh wait, really?
01:11:28
Speaker
Here's the deal, right? I am in Canada. They are in Vancouver. But I think their distributor is in the United States, which means that $35 bags of coffee are then US dollars, and then you add shipping, and then you add tariffs. Look, Sakana, you fish suit wearing motherfucker. I want my Pippa coffee. I am in the same goddamn country as you. Sort it out.
01:11:49
Speaker
My God. Thank you. That was a great rant, Dave. Yeah. And that was, well, that was a long episode of the wonder camera or, which
Humorous Leftist Debate and Nostalgia
01:12:00
Speaker
I kind of forget. We should, I didn't realize this is also going to turn into a podcast of ah two leftists arguing minor points of sort of doctrine kind of became one of those, but who doesn't enjoy it? Well, and again, we can just, cut and and again, we can, ah mo in if if it makes good content, we'll leave it in. And if it's tiresome, we cut it simple.
01:12:19
Speaker
You know, you know that again, I'm always quoting the Simpson here, but that that episode of Bard of Darkness where he's watching Krusty, you know, from the 1960s with the AFL-CIO. I'm like, fuck, I love that bit. I'm like, you know, when I was a kid, I'm like, oh, God, bor now I'm like, I'd watch that.
01:12:34
Speaker
depends on Remark. I would totally be like, yeah. What does the AFL-CIO have to say? So now I so don't mind some of the drier stuff when it comes to politics, but hopefully we were entertaining and at least a little bit.
01:12:47
Speaker
yeah And again, i might sound, I have like a resting bitch voice maybe, or and I do realize i'm if I'm listening to myself later on, I'm probably going to sound like a huge bitch.
01:12:59
Speaker
But we're all friends here.
Acknowledgments and Community Contributions
01:13:01
Speaker
and I, again, our audience of VTubers and VTube fans alike, I don't really judge who cares what I think. So I'm just going to leave off with a little bit of shout outs.
01:13:11
Speaker
And I want to cite my top sources for this, which involve endless Twitter posts, Google Docs, Reddit threads, and more than anything else, the news tubers. So I want to shout out Mujin for his elaborately produced and well laid out video essays. Depressed Nusagi for his excellent analysis.
01:13:28
Speaker
Rima even Star for her interesting analysis and then False ID for just kind of sounding like Kent Brockman. I do want to shout out the journalism of Anna Valens and the insane people who kept up my lifeline for this, which is the VTuber Wiki.
01:13:42
Speaker
Clippers who helped introduce me to what VTubing is about. And of course, all the VTubers and those who work around them and in this wild and growing industry who are just really trying to entertain fans. And then finally, I'm going to shout out two VTubers who are profoundly helpful to me in this month's long journey.
01:13:58
Speaker
So if you're a fan, please go send a follow to Northern King of Frogs and Minty Leaf. Their links will be in the show notes and a shout out both of you. And that's the end. I'm free of my curse.
01:14:09
Speaker
Awesome. Yay. Thank you, Dave. And doesn't it feel great to be finished?
01:14:16
Speaker
Thank you for listening to The Wonder Camera. Find us under The Wonder Camera on Blue Sky, YouTube and Instagram.