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Episode 4: The Impact of Digital Transformation on Banking and Payments in the Middle East
62 Plays6 months ago
This episode of Observability Talk focuses on the effects of digital transformation on the banking and payments industry in the Middle East Region and the importance of observability in navigating these changes. We’ll discuss how observability can be crucial in optimizing digital transformation efforts.
We’re joined by Osama Ben Saleh Bukhari, CEO of AlFaris International Group, a leading IT Business Solutions and Services company based in Saudi Arabia. Osama is also the Head of the Banking Commission for the Saudi International Chamber of Commerce.
In this episode, Osama brings a wealth of experience to share insights on how FinTechs are changing the Banking Landscape in the Middle East, what's keeping CXOs up at night, the evolution of Monitoring Platforms, and shares cautionary signs of relying too much on GenAI.
Also Check Out
* Al Faris International - https://www.alfarisinfo.com/#home-section
* Osama on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/osama-ben-saleh-bukhari-8164295/
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Transcript
The Role of Observability and Security
00:00:00
Speaker
Honestly, I believe that observability is needed from A to Z. From the time you develop to the time you ah launch, I always consider the observability and security, they they look like insurance and the sense of behavior. I mean, I remember someone saying once, banking will never die, but banks may die.
Introduction to Osama bin Saleh Bukhari
00:00:37
Speaker
Welcome to a new episode of Observability Talk. Today, we are glad to have a special guest who joins us from Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Osama bin Saleh Bukhari is the CEO of Al Faris International Group. He is also the head of the Banking Commission for the Saudi International Chamber of Commerce. Osama had a distinguished career in the leadership role in banking and financial services, including National Capital Bank, Arab National Bank, and Bank A Saudi Francie. Hi, Osama.
Tech Evolution in Middle East Banking and E-commerce
00:01:10
Speaker
Yvonne, welcome to the Observability Talk Podcast.
00:01:15
Speaker
My first question to you Osamah is how has been the perception of technology particularly in banking payments and e-commerce sectors evolved in recent years in the Middle East. Are organization becoming more open to startups and disruptive technology?
00:01:35
Speaker
Well, ah thank you very much for having me. um It's ah really an honor and pleasure to be part of this um wonderful, um I would say, talk and initiative where we're bringing, um I would say, yeah knowledge ah and you know being open about what's happening in the business world. And I believe on a and a global scale because I believe you know I've seen a couple of your um ah invitees that have been you know from different industries and, you know, from different countries and you know I'm happy to be here. ah Now to address your um ah first question, um definitely we are in a changing world and the world that we live in is definitely not the same that we lived in even, I would say five years ago.
Banks and FinTech: From Resistance to Integration
00:02:20
Speaker
Of course, you know especially with the evolution of AI and FinTechs and the whole nine yards of you know all the change and the rapid change and the digitalization,
00:02:32
Speaker
um definitely being part of the banking sector for a very long time, being an ex-banker. I remember you know when when the first thoughts of Fintechs came about, the banks were definitely against them and you know they did not want to you know cooperate and all this and that. But then they realized that it was something that is definitely happening and there's no way that they can fight it, but really to live with it and create, ah I would say, an ecosystem where um we depend on each other um and we need each other because I believe the fintechs on their own cannot survive.
00:03:10
Speaker
and the big corporates and the big banks will will never you know survive also without that. So i mean I remember someone saying once, banking will never die, but banks may die. And what what he meant, I believe, is that the banking as we know it will die, but definitely banking will always be there because trading and banking will always be there. and No matter what, because at the end of the day, we need to exchange goods, we need to exchange documents, we need to exchange currencies. So all of that is part of banking. And definitely there is more and more adaptation to fintechs across the board. Very true. very true shama
00:03:52
Speaker
This is a good insight into how new startups, ah mainly FinTech, right in the banking or BFSI environment is being received by ah these banks now. um See, in your role, you have been and leading a great business, and you would be talking to a lot of CXOs ah in Middle East region and maybe other regions as well.
Cybersecurity Concerns in Digitalization
00:04:20
Speaker
um What do you think are the number one or maybe couple of these things which are ah always keeping these CXOs very worried about the technology and the business.
00:04:35
Speaker
I would say what's keeping them worried is what keeps me worried. It's really cybersecurity more than anything else. You know, with the increased digitalization, with the increased automation comes a great problem called cybersecurity. It has always existed, but now, you know, as we know, anything can be used for good or bad. A gun can be used by a police person or a law enforcement can be used by a perpetrator or whether by a criminal. So the gun by itself is never good or bad. It's how we use it and and when do we use it and for what purpose. um Same thing with cybersecurity because you know even with with AI and Gen-AI, a lot of these, I would say perpetrators are using that to to penetrate and using AI to counter AI and counter their cybersecurity. I would say cybersecurity is definitely on the highest level and
00:05:33
Speaker
what we call observability, because if I am not aware of what's happening, I'm also unaware of the the the repercussions. So if I know that if something happens on the spot, even if it was something negative, but I'll be able to do an action that will correct it. But if I'm only aware of it at a later stage, that means the and the damages can can be multiplied multiple times. so I would say, um as a CXO or as a per a business person, two things. I need to know what is happening at any point of time and am I secure enough? To me, I believe these two pillars are really important and that's what's keeping ah all CXOs, I would say, on on our toes. Very true. I think these two technologies have been obviously evolving for quite some time.
00:06:33
Speaker
and these are really becoming very critical for every digital price. So my next question is towards that.
Prioritizing User Experience Beyond Aesthetics
00:06:40
Speaker
ah One of the major challenges any digital first business today is facing is to providing the best user experience ah and a consistent, available application for their end customers. How do you see these enterprises in MEA region tackling this very critical issue? for when they are doing these digital transformation initiatives? Well, you see, the thing is with the user experience and the look and feel of apps is so subjective because we are human beings and we are different. And it really doesn't matter what ethnic or religion or what background. I like the color blue, you like the color green, he likes the color red.
00:07:30
Speaker
No one will ever say, oh, you're wrong because you love that color. And what I see as appealing is not what you see appealing. So this is an extremely difficult area to really address and get everyone's, I would say, um ah acceptance. and you know for for especially you know um and the the user experience. But because part of it is is the look and feel. And that we can always put aside. But the really, the user experience that we need to look at and focus on is the actual workflow. So is it easy to do? Is it intuitive enough? is it you know So whether it's color green or brown or whatever it is or whatever background it has, if it's really functional,
00:08:16
Speaker
I'm going to be using it and I'm going to be happy. And that's what we see now. A lot of these applications, they have user defined preferences in terms of colors and schemes and everything. Because I need to cater for that. I don't feel comfortable with the color blue. I can put it the color green or whatever but it is. But the user journey is what really matters. So the user experience, when we talk about user experience, to me, it's really about the journey itself that needs to be well designed in a way that makes
00:08:48
Speaker
intuitive decisions made easily. And it shouldn't be complex. It shouldn't be, you know, hard to use. And and there's so many applications that we saw and we're seeing today that are so user friendly that, you know, users just jumped on them and they're not the first or the last or even the best, but they they just like provided the the proper user journey. a very interesting ah way of putting this together Osama. Thank you so much. um One very interesting point you made out was that it should be very easy and it should be seen as a journey. Like ah if somebody is interacting with your application or a mobile app.
00:09:31
Speaker
right ah how you basically provide that workflow, what user is trying to do with your application and how easy it is to go from step 1 to step 2 to step 3 and complete what they want to do in the best possible time without any errors so that the overall user experience is very good. This is a very interesting way of putting this together. Thank you so much Sarma for that. ah Now coming to the second part to it, like see when applications are being delivered, these applications are hosted in a data center or in a cloud,
Integrating Observability in Application Lifecycle
00:10:07
Speaker
right? And application architecture has been evolving. And so ah our monitoring platform is also evolving to becoming observability.
00:10:17
Speaker
What are your thoughts on observability, especially business journey observability? Of course. Well, honestly, I believe that observability is needed from A to Z. From the time you develop to the time you um launch to the user, ah to the user experience, you know where do we see ah users being stuck? Were they spending the most time? Are they spending the most time? in an area where I expect them to spend time or are they spending a time in a screen where it shouldn't take long time because then it would tell me that that screen is complex and that screen is not delivering what it's supposed to deliver. So that the entire um I would say again journey from a application owner or from the business owner
00:11:08
Speaker
That journey from A to Z needs to be honestly done in in ah in um yeah using the observability technology so that I know where the problems are coming from or where the good stuff. Because I also need to know what is the most used product? What is the most sold product? In what region? For an example, if I find that you know I have a product X that is being used in region Y and my factory is in region Z, maybe then that would push me to to push the factory and really locate the factory because that's where the, know something like that will never happen without ah observability and having the proper. So data sciences today is really crucial and having all the data and process in the right way for me to make a decision
00:11:56
Speaker
is crucial today, and that's what will make, ah honestly, businesses thrive and and do better if they really have a good, and when they say, you know, information is power, ah you know, everyone says that, but do they really understand what it means? Honestly, this is what it means, is that you have the all the information, all the ingredients to make the decision, not to keep the information to yourself and say, no, no, no, it's mine, I'm not gonna give it to anyone else. that These times are over. Yeah, very, very very true. ah Just picking up on one of the point which you mentioned earlier on, right that observability is something which you should start when you are still developing. eight yeah And that is one one of the things which we are also communicating with our customers more often now, that
00:12:45
Speaker
ah observability and security has always been an afterthought right once the application is developed and deployed and then you start thinking oh I need to figure out how my application is performing and if there is a challenge there right. Now ah with with the advancement of this observability We are talking about why don't application developers or application teams start looking at observability as early as they write the first line of code, right, which will make sure that they make their application more observable. ah Are you also seeing some something like this happening in MEA region where enterprises are developing their own application? You're absolutely spot on.
00:13:35
Speaker
and To me, I truly believe in observability. and you know In the different forums that I speak in, I always like to use real-life examples just to make things more ah relevant note to the the entire you know audience, not to a certain you know tech-savvy audience. I always consider it or make the observability and security, I always say they they look like insurance and the sense of behavior, right? You want to ensure, and let's take car insurance for an example. You don't could ensure a car after you've driven it for such a long time and all and all what's happening. And then you have an accident, right? And say, oh, and now I need to ensure the car. No, it's way too late. You cannot ensure a car after you've had the accident.
00:14:29
Speaker
And the earlier you you you do the insurance, the less even the premium will be because, you know, the car is new. You're someone who has no um history of accidents. So when when I ah apply the insurance, that means God forbids when something goes wrong. the insurance is going to protect me. I mean, with ah with a caveat of a huge difference between the two, but it's just, you know, for people to understand, it is as important. Or like health insurance, God forbid, you know, if I'm going through normal sickness and all this and that, you know, a common cold, that's fine. But God forbid, if I need a major surgery or something like that, that's going to cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars. And if that if I'm not under a proper medical insurance, I'm not going to be able to do that.
00:15:13
Speaker
think of observability and cyber security of the same level, if not more important, because if something goes wrong, and I'm hacked, or if I'm unaware of something that is going wrong, and then it's too late, that the the repercussion is gonna be ample multiple times. And that's why you know it's extremely important that we do that at ah at an early, early stage. And honestly, I am seeing that, and especially you know with the evolution of the low-code, no-code platforms,
00:15:45
Speaker
they build that into the into the, I would say, in the platform itself. It becomes more observable um and and ready to to connect. And you know with all the APIs that we're using today in different aspects, observability is definitely becoming ah more apparent and more needed. ah very interesting way of giving some sort of simile in terms of how insurance actually looks similar to what observability and cybersecurity are. ah In fact, for some of the customers, we do talk about the revenue leakage which they have. And ah because of that, the price they are paying of not having observability in place is very huge. Right. Absolutely. Moreover, and like you said, right it also impacting their brand business brand.
00:16:37
Speaker
and the end user experience, which is ah somewhere you cannot quantify it, but the Absolutely. absolute ah One last question was ama on the favorite topic of most of the people today.
The Dual Nature of Generative AI
00:16:54
Speaker
the den right How generative AI or chat GPTs of the world i'll um How do you think businesses in ME reason or worldwide are going to be adopting this ah new fascinating technology? Sure. Well, again, it's something that I talk about in multiple forums. And honestly, on a personal level, I truly believe that
00:17:22
Speaker
It's bringing more harm than good today because of how we're using it, not because of the the technology is great. Again, let's use as an example of the gun. The gun can be horrible and can be disastrous and cause millions of lives to be lost unnecessarily. But at the same time, it can be for good because it's protecting you and all the Sanadins for the law enforcement to use it in in in the right way. So talking about jennai and as you said chatgbt and because it's easily influenced by the data that is available, that's where I say we have to be extremely careful.
00:18:03
Speaker
So if I controlled my data and I sanitize my data, then definitely gen AI. And even before that, even normal AI is superb and it's excellent and it will make my life easy. But as we always say, garbage in, garbage out, if the data was wrong, then I'm going to get even even more in innovative wrong things, I would say. so let's say like someone like like myself who was again I would say part of ICC and you know and and you know and'm I'm part of the you know head of the banking commission for a number of years on all this and that I can bombard the the internet on on different social medias with an idea that I believe is correct and may not be correct at all and I'm pushing my agenda
00:18:51
Speaker
And guess what? Gen AI will definitely pick that up and say, Oh, by the way, Osama said that and it must be right. And if Jedi says that I was right, you will just immediately believe that it's right. Not because you're looking at what I'm saying, take it, analyzing it yourself and make that decision for yourself. So this is the biggest problem. You know, if it's general data that is available on on the internet, Honestly, we have to be very careful in and how we utilize that. Because as we know, JNI can create even fictitious data, fictitious quotes and fictitious people, right? It's it's part of that code. But if we yeah if we use it for the automation, where anything repetitive, as we stand today, anything repetitive can be replaced by but an automation, whether it's robotics, RPAs, or you know AI in general, or JNI.
00:19:44
Speaker
Having said that, that means there's a lot of good use cases because when I control the data, especially if we use it in, again, in making, let's say, decisions in the and the banking sector and making credit decisions, AI can really help me do a lot of good things because the data I'm feeding the data into the into the into the module because I'm not going to you know create fictitious data. so it's you know It's a financial data of that ah entity and and whatever the social media is talking about that person, then Gen. AI can help me make a better decision. so that That becomes really good. Or in the medical field,
00:20:24
Speaker
where, you know, um the reading, ah you know, and i've I've been talking about something, you know, beyond ah just, you know, yeah of course, using Gen AI, but it's beyond what we call IoT, the is the Internet of Things, but really them, the Internet of Behaviors, IOB. where you take a lot of feed, which is you know the data from the IoT, from the cameras, you know from the wearables, all this and that, and that can feed into a a medical system that can make you a decision. It can save lives.
00:20:59
Speaker
in ah in a great way because you know before a person has, let's say, a heart attack, God forbids, there are so many signs of body ascending because we are not aware of them. you know We're not going to be able to know that, but if you know if those are being fed into a system, and The system will definitely know that you know this person is about to have a heart attack so we can save their life and not until they have the heart attack. and then we you know so In that sense, definitely Gen AI is powerful, beautiful, and it's going to be used more and more. All I'm saying is that please make sure that you know you have the sanitized data
00:21:38
Speaker
to be able to do that. Again, I will use another example, and if I say Ferraris are great, or Lamborghinis are great, but if the roads are not great, you're not going to be able to use them. You're not going to be able to, to you know, like and and and where am I going to use them? And and that's also, you know, also the the question, if it's a congested road, ah Ferrari is as good as a bicycle. Actually, a bicycle may be even more useful then than a Ferrari. So we really need to know. It's not one size fits all. It's not one thing that that is good for everything. We really need to understand our needs, our requirements, and deploy what is best for our requirements. And that doesn't mean always buying the most expensive or the most
00:22:21
Speaker
advance in terms of you know AI, because in your really, as as I always say, and it's it's a doctor, God bless his soul, who has passed away when I was much younger and i say, you're killing a bird with a cannon. you know some Some doctors use really heavy and medications so to you know to ah you know remedy a simple issue. So don't kill birds with cannons. you know Use the right tools for the right places.
00:22:49
Speaker
This is extremely well thought out. Sama, thank you so much for this insight on JNI. Really amazing. ah Before I let you go, Sama, I would like to ask you ah your favorite business book, ah which you would like to recommend to our audience.
Challenging Personal Assumptions
00:23:08
Speaker
ah What you believe is a must have ah for people in business. ah There's so many of them and I honestly don't want to pinpoint one because I'm not you know promoting any book. Of course, I haven't not written anything or have any association with any books. But um honestly, and even you know when you talk about books and experiences, it's always that experience of that individual in those circumstances.
00:23:40
Speaker
Honestly, my biggest book that I go back to and it's someone who taught me when I was in early ages ah in in my career when I was still a ah young banker. always revisit your assumptions. I believe this is the biggest learner because your assumptions were always, I can almost say, 100% correct at a certain time, at a certain ah condition. But these may not be the same condition at the same time. So by following a book blindly,
00:24:15
Speaker
Honestly, I do not, yeah, it is good to read all about, you know, there's so many of them that, you know, we we talk about the, you know, the the seven habits of highly effective people, you know, ah but rich dad, poor dad, all these, you know, the usual suspects. But honestly, read them to give you insight, but you need to make that call yourself and revisit your essential assumptions always. because again I don't want to take too long of your time but let me just tell you and I'm sure a lot of people heard about the the story and I'm gonna make it in a very short way the monkey with the bananas that experience which is when they brought four monkeys and they and they put
00:24:54
Speaker
a banana yeah you know like um in in um on the roof or on the ceiling. sorry and and And every time a monkey wanted to to take the banana, the the sprinkler system would would spray water on the monkeys. So they learned not to go near the bananas. But then when they removed one of the monkeys and brought in you know and a fresh monkey, that fresh monkey wanted to go to get the banana. Everyone started beating him up because they didn't want to be wet again, because they they they don't like being wet. and and then when they removed one more monkey and they brought another fresh monkey guess what the fresh monkey that was just you know just introduced also beat up that monkey he doesn't know why it's just because he saw the others doing it and until the entire four original monkeys that knew what was going on were replaced and still they were doing the same behavior
00:25:46
Speaker
And guess what? They even turned off the sprinkler system. So if any of them would have went and tried to get the banana, they would have gotten the banana, but because this is what they got used to. And honestly, this is what I say. Revisit your assumptions because those assumptions were correct. And I don't think any of us wants to be wrong. Nobody wants to be deliberately long or wrong. You made that assumption. You made that decision at a certain time where you thought you were right. And I think this is my biggest learner. And I would say, please revisit your assumptions. Thank you, Usama. This is something really amazing. I mean, your examples, the way you connect to completely disjointed thing and explain things. It's it's really amazing. Thank you so much for all these wonderful insights on digital transformation, importance of observability, cybersecurity, and a whole lot of other things. Thank you so much for your time, Usama.
Solving Real Problems to Avoid Failure
00:26:42
Speaker
You're most welcome. And just one last thing I would like to say is, um please, and this is for the new people that are coming about or do who wants to develop software or solutions. Excuse me. um Do not just develop something for the sake of developing. Are you addressing an actual issue? Are you actually addressing an um a problem? I mean, you could come up with a software that is so beautiful, so innovative and everything, but it's not really addressing a problem. You have to resolve a problem and that's why we can see a huge number of fintechs failing and going belly up because they did not really address an issue in the right way. They were just doing something different for the sake of being different.
00:27:29
Speaker
If you have endless pockets, you know deep pockets, yeah, maybe it's part of R and&D. But if you're really building a business, you have to address an issue. Otherwise, you're asking for trouble and you're going to go out of funds very quickly. And that's my two cents. And thank you for having me. And it was such a pleasure being here. Thank you so much, Asama. Really great talking to you. Thank you so much. Thank you. A big thank you for joining us at Abderability Talk. Please subscribe and rate us wherever you listen to your podcast. If you found this insightful, helpful, share it with someone who might have a similar experience. For more information about us, visit us at www.unitsystems.com. Thank you.