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Archie MacLaren – Part 3 – with Giles Wilcock
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In the concluding episode dedicated to Archie MacLaren, historian Giles Wilcock discusses MacLaren's eye for spotting young talent, dissects England's disastrous 1909 Ashes series under MacLaren's captaincy, and ponders what MacLaren would have thought of modern cricket.
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ABOUT GILES WILCOCK: From Yorkshire, Giles has been writing on and off for around 12 years now. He started the Old Ebor blog (now on Substack) seven years ago, but had written a few things before that too. He has written three books — a biography of George Macaulay, a history of the Original English Lady Cricketers and a non-cricket book about an 1832 murder — with a fourth in the works.
CREDITS: Presenter & Producer: Tom Ford
All music used in podcast comes from the University of California Santa Barbara’s remarkable collection of wax cylinder’s from the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, which are free to download and use. You can donate to the upkeep of these recordings via their website.
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Transcript
Archie McLaren's Talent Spotting
00:00:07
Speaker
Let's talk about McLaren and young cricketers then, because the outside perception is that he was actually a good judge of young cricket talent. and Perhaps the most famous example is with Sidney Barnes. So for the nineteen one zero two tour of Australia, he actually makes the call to include this relatively unheard of bowler Sidney Barnes even I mean I say young but I think he was in his late 20s but really hadn't broken through into first class cricket and certainly test cricket and so he it's actually McLaren who you could say gave Barnes his start in international cricket so was McLaren a good judge of young cricket talent
00:00:56
Speaker
he He deserves a lot of credit for spotting Barnes. I think, if I remember rightly, Barnes had played one match for Lancashire at the end of the 1901 season. And the story goes that McLaren faced him in the nets and um Barnes struck him on the gloves with a ball that got up and he apologised, which doesn't sound like Sidney Barnes, but anyway, he apologised and McLaren said, oh, don't apologise, Barnes, you're coming to Australia with me.
00:01:23
Speaker
um So he was definitely responsible for spotting Barnes and he always championed him. um Whenever he got a chance to pick him for England, he did do. The only time that he was a bit more I'm not sure was um ah according to Warner in his book about the 0304 tour.
00:01:43
Speaker
um he'd gone to McLaren and said, look, should I take Barnes? And according to Warner, McLaren said, no, his temperament's not right. But that was about the time that Barnes was leaving Lancashire and he'd fallen out. So and that would explain that. But the other young players that he spotted, the problem was that He didn't have much choice in 1901 or 1902 because none of the leading players would go. So the obvious two to take were Hurst and Rhodes, but Lord Hawke said, no, not having them. So he had to find um he had to find them from somewhere else. But the ones that he picked, Jessup had already played for England, um but he was certainly responsible for Len Brond getting into the team and he had a long career afterwards. And again, picking Colin Blythe.
00:02:34
Speaker
ah Blythe was obviously a very, very good bowler and he would have played for England anyway. But when McLaren picked him, he was still, he'd not he'd not been playing very long and he didn't have an amazing record to fall back on, but he did he did well in Australia. um And I think he also, so um when he was coaching Lancashire, I think he had a reputation for being able to to spot the spot the young talent.
Tactical Brilliance Against Australia
00:03:01
Speaker
um I don't think it was just a case of the young talent as well, because the kind of the most famous thing that he did 1921, was a nineteen twenty one Warwick Armstrong brought over the Australian team and they were going through the tour unbeaten and they defeated England easily.
00:03:21
Speaker
And McLaren said, oh some of the, um I could pick a team to beat these players. that They're not as good as everybody thinks. And he got his chance at the end of the summer. And even though he was, i think he was around about 50 at the time, he selected a team of 11 amateurs and And they beat Warwick Armstrong's team and it kind of destroyed their chance of going through the summer unbeaten, which had had never been done before. um and that really bolstered McLaren's reputation as as somebody that could pick a side that could spot what other people couldn't. And he'd always said that as a captain, what he really wanted was a completely free hand. He wanted to be the autocrat picking the team. That almost like justified what he was saying.
00:04:12
Speaker
um And it really boosted his reputation once he chose that side in 1921.
00:04:20
Speaker
I am looking for a nice young girl.
Downfall in 1909 Ashes Series
00:04:27
Speaker
i'm going to buy
00:04:33
Speaker
looking for a nice young Let's talk about the famous 1909 Ashes tour of the Australians in England because McLaren is recalled as captain. Other amateur captains at that time, ah Jackson, Warner, all unavailable or had finished cricket for various reasons. and So he's sort of reappointed as captain. And it's a really interesting series for a number of reasons. Clem Hill is not there. Victor Trumper is there. Doesn't have the greatest series. But England wins the first match. But then Australia fights back under the captaincy of Monty Noble and eventually win 2-1, which is a disaster for the England side.
00:05:23
Speaker
And pretty much is the death knell of Archie McLaren's test career. How do we assess... this particular series a century on um does Archie McLaren deserve some of the blame or is it equally just Monty Noble's captaincy was particularly brilliant or was it a particular individual performance which we can put it down to how do we how do we assess the 1909 Ashes series
00:05:55
Speaker
I think first of all is that by then, McLaren was past his best.
Struggles with Selectors
00:06:01
Speaker
He had not been playing regularly for some time and effectively working for Ranji had broken him because the people that saw him before were kind of saying, he doesn't look well. And even his handwriting apparently had deteriorated and Ranji was always complaining, I can't read your handwriting anymore. He he was ah he was a shell of a man, basically.
00:06:21
Speaker
um And so when he was recalled captain, I think it was a bit of a surprise, but because it was more a case of, oh, well, McLaren's the great tactician. He can win. He can do this. He can do that.
00:06:33
Speaker
The problem was that his selection panel was awful. um It was absolutely awful. You had um Lord Hawke, who was the chairman of selectors. Now, he missed at least one. It might have been two of the selection meetings because he was in France. He was ill, and so he'd gone to France to recuperate. So you were down to two selectors.
00:06:56
Speaker
Then you've got CB Fry, who but he was never a great selector, um and he was too opinionated. Then you had HDG Lusome Gore, who...
00:07:10
Speaker
He had his own opinions as well. um And they just could not agree on what they were doing. They kept changing the side. They made some very questionable choices. And straight away, from early on in the series, even before it was lost, the press picked up that it's kind of selectors are messing up here. They're not doing a good job. They got a lot of criticism.
00:07:35
Speaker
um And during the series, McLaren even publicly said, don't agree with these selections. This is a terrible selection. I wanted to resign. They're not letting me. I'm only doing this as a favour.
00:07:48
Speaker
So he had a point that we're not a good selection panel, but that, Is McLaren to a T? Because that's not exactly going to create team harmony. If you are publicly saying that the selectors are choosing a horrific team, what chance have I got?
00:08:02
Speaker
um That's not going to make the players think, yes, we're going to beat Australia. um But McLaren wasn't blameless himself. You can't blame him for the selection as such, but he made some mistakes. that The most obvious one, which didn't actually um have an effect, but it's interesting, is that he at the start of the series, he did not like Jack Hobbs. He didn't think Hobbs was good enough.
00:08:30
Speaker
And he was kind of critical, saying, no, we we shouldn't pick Hobbs. And so the first test was Hobbs' first game in England. He played in Australia and he won the match um with a half century. And...
00:08:44
Speaker
If McCarron had his way, that wouldn't have happened. i mean, to be fair to McCarron after that, he did change his mind completely. And he was always one of the people that said Hobbs is amazing. Hobbs is brilliant. Hobbs is the best ever. But at that whole, I can judge a good player, that didn't quite work out with Jack Hobbs.
00:09:01
Speaker
um And McLaren was in pretty rubbish form himself because he'd not been playing. um And so he wasn't scoring runs, which added to the pressure. But where he kind of can't be absolved of any blame at all is in the last test because um McLaren was responsible for choosing the final 11. And he decided he wasn't going to play a fast bowler at the Oval, which even then was like, that is insane. You cannot do that. And I don't think it was...
00:09:35
Speaker
it might have been that decision where Wisden said it touched the confines of lunacy. I can't remember if it was McLaren or the selectors they were talking about. But and so he went in with a weak team. And then the other interesting thing about that is that England had picked a secret weapon. There was ah a a googly bowler called Douglas Carr. He was 37 and he'd kind of come from nowhere um the year before. And so he was kind of picked as...
00:10:01
Speaker
This is our secret weapon that's going to level the series. Now, um McLaren overbowled him massively. He came on and he took some early wickets and he was he was a real handful. But then McLaren just kept bowling him all day and he just became less and less effective.
00:10:20
Speaker
um The other thing about that is that McLaren still didn't trust the googly. He didn't think it was a good thing to have. And obviously, Carr was a googly bowler. And there have been suggestions by a few people that um he was almost like proving a point that, look, the googly is no good. Look, it's doing this. that There's even an argument that part of the reason that he hated the Googlies so much was because it was Pelham Warner who'd brought it into big cricket in the 1903 or four ashes. And it was almost like, no, I don't. well I don't like that. And it could be that, ooh, car is going to be my bosun cat that's going to win me a match. Or it could be, no, Warner's done this terrible thing. Let's let's break it. So it's's there's a few different ways that you could look at that.
00:11:11
Speaker
But when it comes down to it as well about 1909 is that even if you want to blame the selectors and say that, yeah, the selectors have done an absolutely horrific job here, um every single member of that selection panel was part of another selection panel that was very successful.
00:11:29
Speaker
Lord Hawke had been, i think you might have been chairman of selectors in 1905 when Stanley Jackson won the Ashes. Lucian Gore was a selector several times in the 1920s, think in 1926 as well, when England won the Ashes. Frye.
00:11:46
Speaker
Although there are reservations. He was a selector in 1912 when England won the Triangular Tournament. So when they weren't with McLaren, all these selectors did okay. Is it just a case of there was one of these clashes of personality
Golden Age Team Consistency
00:12:02
Speaker
that seemed to follow McLaren around so much?
00:12:05
Speaker
It is one of the more interesting aspects when you look at the Golden Age, or really any sort of period from before the Second World War, but particularly in the Golden Age, as I'm sure you're aware, Giles, just the lack of consistency between each series. You know, there's a change of captain, there are so many changes in the team, even the team of selectors changes, depending on which ground they're playing at. These days, it's all very uniform and there are very little team changes between series. I mean, you look at,
00:12:36
Speaker
some series, there's no changes at all. And as to the point you made before, very little um changes to the batting lineup. I mean, if you're a number four today, you're pretty much a number four for life. Whereas what McLaren is doing and many others of his time at admittedly are ah changing it around often depending on the state of the wicket as well. i mean, a sticky wicket would often have teams being reversed. So the best batsman could make advantage of ah of a wicket at the end of an innings, for example. So it's it's one of the many fascinating things i I personally love about this period of cricket is just... the level of change every series brings a new dynamic of any particular team now we're at the point of the podcast Giles where we look at Archie McLaren's statistics so I'm just going to read these out for my listeners listeners to um get a taste of the actual numbers associated with Archie McLaren he was of course
00:13:41
Speaker
primarily a batsman or he was solely a batsman. I believe he took one first class wicket. um It seems like a pub trivia question. Who was Archie McLaren's single first class victim? um I'm sure someone listening is yelling the answer at me now. We'll look into it, but um all of the statistics I'm going to read ah in regards to his batting, so his test and first class. Let's start with his test record. So he played 35 matches between and just of 2,000 runs, 1,931.
00:14:20
Speaker
yeah comprised of sixty one um appearances at the wicket he had four not outs he scored just shy of two thousand runs one thousand nine hundred and thirty one His highest score was And he left test cricket with an average of 33.87, which included five test sentries. I think you said before, Giles, just the single sentry in England um and eight half sentries and 29 catches.
00:14:50
Speaker
The first class record, as you you would imagine, numbers are much larger. One of the great statistical symmetries, I suppose. He played 424 matches, which is the same number as his highest score, the famous 424. He batted 703 times.
00:15:08
Speaker
he um battered seven hundred and three times He had And we have to remember he was primarily an opening batsman um for for most of his career. Of course, being the golden age, he appeared in other positions, but primarily he was an opening batsman. He scored 22,000.
00:15:29
Speaker
236 runs, highest score of course was that 424 against Somerset. He had a very similar average with his first class ah numbers, so 34.15, just slightly higher than his test average. He scored 47 centuries.
00:15:48
Speaker
sentries Not as many as some of the other batsmen of the age, it must be said. I mean, C.B. Fry, I think 94, and some of the others, Tom Haywood, of course, brought up a century of centuries, as did Grace. um He scored 95 half centuries, and he took 452 catches in the field. um Of course, he's remembered to today primarily for two reasons in terms of statistics. It's that highest score, the first man ever to score off
00:16:19
Speaker
400 in first-class cricket and it's a record he held for 30 years which is quite a long time and i'm sure he was proudly boasting of it for those 30 years until bill ponsford broke it twice um and the other one is the number of because he did captain england quite a lot um and but as you said right at the top of this podcast giles it's not the best record. Like it's one thing to captain, but of course you're going to be judged on your, your actual record. So 22 matches as captain and he only had four wins, but he had 11 losses and seven draws, which again, in this whole,
00:17:06
Speaker
ah re-evaluation of Archie McLaren, which has happened over the decades, I think is something that sticks out is regardless of what he was actually like as a tactician and ah and a leader at the end of the day, if your record is only four wins from 22 matches, then that's not really going to leave you in the upper echelon of test captain.
McLaren's Performance and Relationships
00:17:29
Speaker
So there, his numbers, anything you want to comment or contribute to that Giles?
00:17:36
Speaker
the The other thing about his captaincy record is that he lost every series. He didn't have a single series win. mean, one of them, um the the first one in 1899, you could argue it wasn't really his team because he took over when WG Grace retired and he lost his first match when he he came in and not been playing. But in his defence, the other three games were drawn, but England got better under his captaincy. They were actually quite good. They they couldn't do it in the three days that test matches were in those days. um
00:18:12
Speaker
But the other series, no. And when he he took over from Stoddart Australia in 1890... I think 1897, 98. Yeah, yeah.
00:18:26
Speaker
And he won one and lost two. But again, that wasn't his team. So I would kind of give him almost a free pass for those first two series because he was kind of coming and it wasn't his team.
00:18:39
Speaker
um You could also argue that in 1901-02, when he had a very, very young team, no one expected him to win with that team. It was no disgrace losing.
00:18:52
Speaker
So I think that the two that you have to judge him on are 1902. and 1909. And obviously 1909 was a disaster. 1902, it depends. He had his good days and his bad days. um But his bad days were very bad. So it's it's it's maybe not quite as clear cut as the numbers say, but it is a pretty horrific record.
00:19:25
Speaker
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00:19:37
Speaker
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00:19:48
Speaker
Well, let's sum up Archie McLaren, if we can ever sum up Archie McLaren. So he, ah like a few of the other of his contemporaries from the golden age, like C.B. Fry and Ranji, he does extend his first class career beyond the First World War. So he plays a handful of first-class matches, I think, including that famous one you mentioned, which is quite mythical, I think, in English cricket, how he put together this side and in his 50s and beat Warwick Armstrong, the all-conquering Australian side from 1921. But much...
00:20:24
Speaker
you can pretty much place him quite squarely within the confines of the so-called golden age so most of his cricket happens before the first world war um but a century later Giles how should we look at Archie McLaren in terms of his cricketing feats I think as a batsman, he was not the best. I think his reputation is better than he actually was. i think there were a lot of better players. you Even at the time, you wouldn't have put him at the top. You had Ranji was...
00:21:06
Speaker
streets ahead of him. um On a good day, CB Fry was much better than him. um Then i would also argue that Stanley Jackson was better than him, um especially in test matches.
00:21:20
Speaker
um Then I think you've you would have the distinction between the best amateurs, the best professionals, because back then it was better to be an amateur. But Looking at it now, there were a lot of professionals who were better than him as well, um most notably Tom Haywood, Johnny Tillsley. So he wasn't even then he wasn't right at the top rank.
00:21:43
Speaker
um I think the point about him is that he was a leading amateur in the sense that he was one of the most famous amateurs. And I think that's what's made his name not because he was the best. He was just one of the most obvious. He was he was everywhere. But I think when he was in form, when he was on, when he was scoring his 424 and his 168 not outs, I think he was very, very good.
00:22:07
Speaker
And I think he played some what must have been incredible innings and the fact and that they became almost legendary. says that they must have been very good. But I think McLaren's problem was that there were too many dry spells in between.
00:22:19
Speaker
When he was out form, he was horrible. He was just scoring single fingers all the time. Whereas what you would expect, and maybe not from an amateur, but what what a modern... cricket forward would expect is that somebody out of form can kind of grit their way through it. But that's just not how amateurs used to play. And it's certainly not how McLaren used to play.
00:22:38
Speaker
um And I think if we're assessing him now, you've you've got to say that that's something that counts against him. um I think if you're assessing as a captain, we've already touched on that. But I think you've got to say that he was ahead of his time as a tactician.
00:22:53
Speaker
um And he had some extremely good cricketing theories and some a lot of cricketing knowledge, but he just couldn't get his best from the players and he just couldn't get on well enough with people.
00:23:07
Speaker
And perhaps he's his biggest failing as a captain was just too obstinate. He thought he knew best. He would stick to his guns, whatever was happening. He was right. He wouldn't accept anybody else was wrong. Sorry, that anybody else could be right.
00:23:22
Speaker
So I think that's his biggest failing, though which explains why he has got such a questionable captaincy record. And I should point out as well that because he captained Lancashire a very long time. And Lancashire had a very, very strong team. It was one of the strongest counties. And in the entire time he was captain, he only won the county championship once. And that's, if you're saying you're a great captain, that's that's not a good look as well. So just couldn't get it from his players is what I would say.
00:23:57
Speaker
Very interesting. And what you say about his batting, how he went through these sort of dry spells and notably had great moments in batting, it sort of reminds me of the commentary that is very timely at this moment with Ben Stokes retiring. And some of the and analysis has said, you know, has had a couple of...
00:24:20
Speaker
outstanding performances that truly will go down in history but in between those he would have some down periods um and it's it's not actually you know intended to put Stokes down it's just sort of you look at the statistics and when you bring down those amazing achievements and in a more sobering light you think yeah there would be periods where nothing would really happen. And I think he's retired with a very similar test batting average as McLaren, low 30s, which generally speaking, low 30s is not great, I suppose. Perhaps you can give McLaren one up because low 30s in the golden age was actually not bad. So I just thought I'd bring that to the
00:25:05
Speaker
discussion.
Monuments to McLaren
00:25:06
Speaker
um Now, Giles, what is left of McLaren? Like, are there any monuments to him, statues or plaques anywhere in England for people to see that you know of?
00:25:18
Speaker
um I didn't think there were, but what I did um come across just the other day when I was looking this up is that the only thing I'm aware of is that in the place where I used to live, um Warfield Park, he bought it just before the Second World War when his wife and got her inheritance and they had a big house built there.
00:25:41
Speaker
um There is a sculpture that's been put up um of McLaren. It's by somebody that and you does wood sculpture. I think they take wood and they use chainsaws, things like that to make it into something. so There is, or there there was recently, i don't know if it's still there, a little um little sculpture of McLaurin, the place that used to live. And I think the idea is that him and I think it was his son did quite a lot to develop it. And so it's kind of like a little little tribute to him um after all this time. But as far as I'm aware, i've had I did look, but there doesn't seem to be anything else. There's no blue plaques or anything like that. Interesting.
00:26:23
Speaker
Interesting. Because again, he you know he has this name and this reputation, certainly from this era that we're talking about. You think there might be a bit more, but who knows? Maybe someone listening is going to start up a petition as we as we question the lack of Archie McLaren monuments in in the world today. So final question, Giles, I put this to you as I do all my guests. What do you think Archie McLaren would have thought of modern cricket And that encompasses everything from T20 to women's cricket to you know, white ball cricket under the lights. um
00:26:58
Speaker
I have a sneaking suspicion he would have loved the money. But how do you think he would have actually gone as a modern cricketer? It's a bit of a tricky question, I know, but let your imagination run wild for a moment.
00:27:11
Speaker
I always think for this, that there's two ways you can look at it. First of all, if we could magically bring McLaren back with a time machine and plonk him down in 2026, I think he'd be pretty appalled, and like most of his contemporaries would be. I think what would upset him would be that what he would consider to be style has gone out of...
00:27:38
Speaker
cricket. He wouldn't approve slog shots and he wouldn't approve of and reverse sweeps and that kind of thing. so he He wouldn't like it from that viewpoint. He wouldn't like the commercialism Or I think although in McCarron's case, it's more like that he would say he didn't like the commercialism and then he'd be thinking, oh, I could get quite a good deal here and then do it quietly.
00:28:07
Speaker
um I think he would find the tactics interesting. I think he would find it interesting how tactical even T20 cricket can be. i don't think he was ah a statistics man, but I think he would have liked the amount of thought that went into like almost every single ball in modern cricket, because that that's that's very him.
00:28:34
Speaker
um But otherwise, i don't think there'd be much in it that would appeal to him. But on the other hand, um I suspect that if a question like this, i always think if a player from the past was brought up in the modern era and they'd been kind of used to this, I think he would have quite liked the challenge.
00:29:02
Speaker
And I think he would have liked the fact that in a lot of ways, it's a harder game now because you've got so much adapting to do. um he would have loved the money.
00:29:13
Speaker
And I don't think there's a question he would have been signing IPL contracts any of the contract that he could get hold of. um Because I think he and both if he was brought back now or if he was time travel back. One thing I think he would like about modern cricket is the fact that it's a constant challenge because there was there was a story. It's another Cardiff story, I'm afraid. But there's a story that um the Yorkshire bowler, Ted Wainwright, was bowling against McLaren.
00:29:45
Speaker
And it it i think it was a festival match something like that. And McLaren had scored 49. And so Wainwright thought, um um he's he's he's been my captain. I'm going to give him an easy one. So he bowled ball down the leg side just to let him get his 50. And McLaren just kicked it away. And he ran a leg by. And he came down the other end and he said to Wainwright, what?
00:30:06
Speaker
What are you doing? Why are you doing that? Why are you bowling with that to me, Wainwright? And he said, i just wanted to give you an easy run for your 50, sir. And McLaren said to him, no, no, I can hit your best ball, Wainwright, or anybody else's. Don't do that again. So I think he would have liked the fact that you don't have easy matches, that every minute of every game, it's kind of like a challenge. That's what he liked, I think.
McLaren in Modern Cricket
00:30:30
Speaker
So that side of it, he, I think, would he would have liked modern cricket. I i can imagine um if they were both in modern times, Ranji would have probably been the owner of an IPL team and he probably would have just positioned McLaren as captain and and maybe made him his secretary on the secretary on the side as well, but probably would have given one of his good friends that favour, although it's pretty pretty hard to score a quadruple century in T20 cricket or the 100. I think McLaren would have insisted that he was the one at the auction. He wouldn't have wanted anybody else picking the team. he He could have picked to his heart's content and that would have made him a very happy captain or coach. It's ah it's a very good point. And that's where we have to bring this very enlightening episode, I have to say, Giles, to a conclusion. Thank you so much for being my guest today. And if anyone listening is keen to read Giles' writing, on McLaren or indeed any other cricketer and there's a lot on there I'd encourage them to seek out Giles's sub stack and his pre-existing blog and you can readily find it online I'm going to include a link in the ah description to this episode but Giles thank you again for being my guest it's been wonderful thank you thank you for having me
00:31:56
Speaker
Pleasure. And that's all for today's episode. Please subscribe to the YouTube page and the podcast on your preferred platform. My name is Tom Ford and until next time, it's bye for now.