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Deliverance with Andrew Lowen
99 Plays1 year ago
Who knew that the deep lore from the Bible could be the theme of an epic, co-op, tactical board game? Andrew Lowen, host of The Crowdfunding Nerds podcast, pulls it off with Deliverance, a game featuring beautiful art, deep character customization, and a challenging difficulty that may have you praying to a higher power for help!
Check out the game at playdeliverance.com. Also, if you're interested in crowdfunding, marketing, or just want to hear from other game developers, be sure to swing by crowdfundingnerds.com as well!
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Transcript
Welcome and Halloween Influence
00:00:01
Speaker
Happy Halloween, everybody. Thanks for checking out Should I Play It? As always, I'm your humble host, Corey Tomlinson, from Grim Steel Games, and I can't thank everyone enough for listening to the show. Halloween is absolutely my favorite holiday of the year. Maybe it's the fact that I love Po and Lovecraft, or maybe I'm just a candy junkie. Honestly, those are all true facts. It doesn't hurt living in New England. There's just something about this time of year that I look forward to every other month.
Introduction to 'Deliverance' and Andrew Loewen
00:00:30
Speaker
So, what better way than to celebrate Halloween by featuring a game with heavy biblical Christian influences? I thought so too. But it's not often that a podcast with only a few episodes has such an accomplished guest as we do today. So, in honor of the day, sit back, open up your favorite candy bar of choice, and let me introduce you to the creator of the gorgeous, pleasantly difficult, co-op board game, Deliverance, made by Andrew Loewen.
00:01:05
Speaker
All right, today is an exciting one for me this early in the podcast. I have somebody who probably doesn't need much introduction in the gaming sphere.
Andrew's Background in Marketing and Game Design
00:01:15
Speaker
And honestly, Andrew Lohan, let me let me just introduce him by saying podcaster with the crowdfunding nerds, web developer, father of six kids, I think soon to be seven, right? Yeah. And
00:01:30
Speaker
also game designer of the board game Deliverance. And Andrew, I appreciate you coming on. Welcome to the show. How are you doing? Awesome. I'm doing great. I'm excited to be here. Really excited to talk about Deliverance and, you know, just honored that you have me.
00:01:47
Speaker
Well, I'm honored that you decided to come on this early. This is this will be our third episode of the podcast. And to have somebody like you on is just it's a pleasure to talk to you. And we've I will say that all of us at Grimsdale Games, we all are fans of crowdfunding nerds. We listen to it religiously. No pun intended. And
00:02:06
Speaker
And it's really helped us in our efforts as we've gone forward in our game development process. So before we get into all that and we talk about the game, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you kind of came to be here as the producer of Deliverance.
00:02:23
Speaker
Yeah, it's a very long story that I can cut into tiny pieces. About me first, I've been a digital marketer for about 15 years. I've worked with a lot of small businesses, about 800 different small businesses. I've had clients go to Shark Tank and get deals. I've sold as seen on TV products, and I've worked with huge intellectual properties like Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Star Trek, Conan,
00:02:48
Speaker
Like we're working with Modiphius Entertainment on the Dune RPG, which is getting like a crazy high return on investment. It must be because of us, not because the movie's coming up. But we've, you know, crowdfunding nerds, we've helped fund over 150 projects at this point on Kickstarter and Gamefound.
Success of 'Crowdfunding Nerds'
00:03:10
Speaker
And so, you know, raising over $15 million for our clients, most of which are just first-time creators, you know.
00:03:19
Speaker
And with that whole concept, like I wanted to just simply be able to share what's working, not share part of what's working. And then if you want to get the rest, hire me, you know, it's like, let's just give people all the stuff that we're doing that's working and that's not working and kind of take people on a journey with us to, you know, so that they can be successful. There were so many people like right now.
00:03:43
Speaker
We have 40 crowdfunding projects that we're working with, 40. And so we have a full-time staff of six, but it's just, it's just a lot. And there are so many others that would want to use us, but can't afford us yet. Or, you know, people that are, it's their first project and they just need, maybe they don't, they, they are able to take on more work themselves. And so they want to learn and whatnot. I totally encourage that.
00:04:12
Speaker
And we thought what better resource than just sharing what we're experiencing on a weekly basis. And so we just hit episode 150 and just released it today. Thank you. And so I'm a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Black Belt. I will probably by the time this podcast releases, I don't know when you're going to release, but I'm expecting my seventh child in the next like few days. My wife is now 39 weeks pregnant and
00:04:41
Speaker
So that's, I have five daughters and soon to be, and one son and soon to be another, another little boy. I spent 24,000 hours in World of Warcraft. I'm a former professional Hearthstone player. I guess I'm, I'm hard to kill.
00:04:56
Speaker
I thought I had a lot of kids with three and hearing seven is just, oh, that's impressive. I'd say three is chaos. Seven, well six, because that's what I'm most experienced with, feels like three. So if you have three, you know what my life is like. It is just a little more of what you're used to. So how do you find time to develop a game? I mean, the game development process is a long one. How do you find time to do that as well?
Development Journey of 'Deliverance'
00:05:22
Speaker
Oh, that was, uh, yeah. So I started development for deliverance in 2016 over the summer. And it took me five years before we hit Kickstarter. Um, we, in fact, it was almost exactly five years, June, 2016 to June, 2021 is when we actually launched, uh, on Kickstarter. And we delivered, uh, I want to say a month or two ago to the U S and we're just, as of today, our, our EU backers just received all their,
00:05:50
Speaker
they're shipping notifications and stuff, so they're really excited. So that journey really started from me quitting video games. I said I was former professional and whatnot. I made 400 bucks a week playing Hearthstone and teaching people how to win, how to hit legend. And I have friends that went on to have huge Twitch channels and stuff. It's just funny seeing where I could have gone, maybe.
00:06:17
Speaker
I quit video games because it was just, it was too hard to be really good because of the dedication, time dedication and whatnot. So we ended up looking for other outlets kind of for that fantasy. I played Magic the Gathering really hard from like 98 to 2006. I played other games, but I never really looked at board games as a serious medium for awesome entertainment until I discovered Pandemic.
00:06:47
Speaker
which is weird because I think pandemic is totally lame now. It's like not as not nearly as chunky as I as I as I like. But co-op at the time, oh, my goodness, that exploded my mind that you could play a game together. And so eventually, you know, this section of the story short, I found a real lack of a game like Deliverance on the market. And I just was hit one day with an idea like,
00:07:17
Speaker
You know, there was this story in the Bible of of Gabriel, the guy that's like, hey, Mary, you got baby Jesus coming. That Gabriel, the messenger of God, like the chief postal worker of heaven, was blocked for three weeks from delivering a message by a demon or fallen angel called the Prince of Persia. And only when Michael the Archangel, like the general of Heaven's army came and Gabriel was able to finally break away from that battle.
00:07:46
Speaker
and deliver this message to Daniel. Then Gabriel said, I'm going to have to go back and help Michael with the Prince of Persia. So evidently Michael, the archangel, was not able to deal with this fallen angel on his own. Only Gabriel and Michael comboing together could deal with this. And then later this demon called the Prince of Greece was going to come and they had to deal with that guy. And I thought, holy cow, you've got like God, the
00:08:10
Speaker
the creator of all the angels and the fallen angels and everything like that, saying, Gabriel, I have an official message from you. Here is a letter to deliver to Daniel or whatever, a message. And then there's a demon that was like, Hey, Gabriel, I think you're a jerk. And then Gabriel's like, I have an official message from God. Let me pass. And that Prince of Persia said no.
00:08:33
Speaker
like, what happened? Like, how? And that's really kind of where the original idea of Deliverance spawned. It's like, okay, so I guess it's not so easy for angels. And, you know, that's, that's kind of where it came from. And through five years of development, I learned how to make a game good.
Inspiration and Challenges in 'Deliverance'
00:08:52
Speaker
But what was I think the most important thing was I already knew
00:08:56
Speaker
what a good game felt like, you know, like I downed Ragnaros is this this will date me. I don't know if you guys understand this analogy, but I was one of the first guilds to down Ragnaros in World of Warcraft, Molten Core, like the raid with 40 people. And the sound that came out of my my guild when we downed that boss was just deafening. And that is like the experience that
00:09:23
Speaker
I wanted for players to have, you know, that just epic. Oh, my gosh, we tried so hard. We tried so hard and then they finally beat it like, yes. So kind of like a little bit of a I mean, a little homage to Dark Souls, because that's a little bit of what I kind of what I was going for. So. So what I'm hearing is that deliverance is not an easy game. No, it's not.
00:09:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, you know, and I get actually I get some objections from Christians. They're like, well, you know, shouldn't God always win? It's like, yeah, in the end, maybe. But you know, it's it is hard, like these demons will chew you up and spit you out. And so my really my goal was for the game, the feeling that I wanted to go for is that you would feel like an epically like ultra powerful angel that was just about to die.
00:10:15
Speaker
So I wanted you to just like swat demons down, kind of like Diablo, you know, where you feel like this apically powerful character and all of a sudden you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm just about that. I need to escape and, you know, Poppy Hill potion or something. And so that's kind of the.
00:10:32
Speaker
the feeling I was going for. So it's a hard game. And it's actually been, I've been kind of, in some circles nervous to talk about how hard the game is. Because it's a, you know, I mean, there are five difficulty levels. And so if you wanted a quote unquote, easier version,
00:10:49
Speaker
I mean, honestly, the easy version still obliterates people. It's more about just understanding how the system works and that you can't just attack and hit your strongest buttons to win. So it definitely throws people for a loop.
00:11:06
Speaker
Well, you're talking to somebody who my group of friends regularly comes back to Arkham Horror. And that is a game that will chew you up and spit you out too. So I'm okay with it. We actually laugh and we kind of take bets on when we're going to die. When is the ancient horror going to take over? Is it going to be the first turn, the second turn? Which turn is it happening? So we have some choice words about that game when we play it.
00:11:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's our masochistic side when we decide that we want to get beat up. So it sounds like we have an option to to try that out as well. So so kind of getting into the game a little bit, you know, we've touched on kind of the difficulty and the theme of it. But, you know, mechanically, we talk a little bit about it and how how development way five years I I get it. Yeah, it does take a long time to to get through and to get it to the place that you want it to be. I think we're
00:11:56
Speaker
We're on just over two years since we came up with the idea for ours. And, you know, we're still probably six months away from going to Kickstarter, but also with a team of three, you know, kind of had it every week. So.
00:12:07
Speaker
That's awesome. Yeah. So I, the way that, um, oh, first of all, I think that that's excellent. You guys have three people working on a game. It, it, it's so much it, it's a really lonely road game design, you know, um, when you are like, for me, I understand these systems of, um, you know, like the mechanics, as you meant alluded to the, the mechanics of deliverance.
00:12:29
Speaker
you know, and, and other concepts like breakpoints, what if an angel starting damage was three instead of two, you know, that could have a big effect on the rest of the game because of how you start snowballing too early or whatever, you know, and all of these numbers were in my head. And it became impossible to talk to anyone about because they're talking
00:12:52
Speaker
checkers, and I'm talking 3D chess or whatever, and our 4D chess. And so it's quite a lonely road, but doing it with friends is really awesome. So commend you for that. I think that's a really smart idea. And so yeah, I guess where deliverance came from,
00:13:12
Speaker
Maybe the way, rather, you know, scratch that, how I describe deliverance to a new player when I'm sitting down with them and playing, maybe I could just do that and then, you know, jump into the mechanics of the game. So.
Game Setting and Mechanics
00:13:27
Speaker
deliverance, you control an elite angelic warrior in the army of heaven. And you and your team have come down to this small, backwardsy little town in modern day Southern California, called Fallbrook, which is actually where I used to live, by the way. It's just happened to be an amazing name. And it is filled with demonic activity. It is not a power center. There's no one of
00:13:51
Speaker
serious influence there. And there's really no outside reason that you can figure out why the demons are there. And so it's your mission to infiltrate and you have to figure out what's going on and you have to put a stop to it.
00:14:06
Speaker
Your suspicion is that there is a mighty fallen prince, one of the leaders of the armies of darkness, that is commanding the forces from the shadows. And it is your standing order ever since the victory on the cross to smite those fallen princes and send them to the abyss to await their final judgment.
00:14:26
Speaker
Um, and so that's kind of the, the backdrop for the game. Um, so the, uh, so the game operates in two different modes of play. One is a campaign, which is like a 14 mission, um, experience. It's super awesome. People have a lot of fun with it. And, you know, it's kind of, uh, similar to some, you know, other dungeon crawl games. It's more of like a tactical dungeon crawl, tactical combat game than a, than a true dungeon crawl. But, um,
00:14:56
Speaker
You play through this campaign and you receive the story of deliverance and whatnot. It won't preach at you. You're not going to have to convert to Christianity by Mission 5 or anything like that. The game is actually designed for a person who already is a Christian.
00:15:15
Speaker
And those people don't need to be converted. So we're not going to preach at you. And we're going to just take the lore of the Bible, which is the richest lore base in the universe that we know, and just kind of tell an awesome story using that lore in a fantasy way.
00:15:32
Speaker
And so you've got this campaign. The 14 missions, after you beat the campaign, there's what I call, well, what is referred to by JRPG lovers as New Game Plus. There are challenges to each campaign mission that you can go back with your epically powerful character and try to like complete really hard versions of the missions. So like the very, the very first mission is really a tutorial to teach you how to fight against the demons and whatnot.
00:16:00
Speaker
you know, kind of figure out the tactical combat rules and stuff. And you have to beat the demons in four rounds, or you lose, you know, it's like stomp out the patrol before you get into the town so they don't alert the other demons in the town. And the challenge is to simply beat that mission in one round.
00:16:16
Speaker
So you obviously have to power up a little bit before that can happen. So the other mode of play is a skirmish, and that's a kind of a one shot where you'd all sit down for game night, you'd play through kind of this two battle experience, culminating in this epic fallen prince fight for kind of the rescuing of the saints in the town.
00:16:43
Speaker
mechanically, the way that the game actually works is, and I'll reference back to this when you asked me why should I play this, but I've always found that the pull of these types of games, rather the
00:16:57
Speaker
maybe the challenge in these types of games from a design perspective is when you get strong enough, you just press your your highest damage button and you win. You know, it's like you've got this boss that does really cool stuff, but you just kill him in two hits. That is actually quite common in dungeon crawl type games where you just get too powerful. In fact, massive darkness one. That was the problem is that you'd have these really great fights that you would just blow through because you were really strong and massive darkness, too. They largely kind of
00:17:27
Speaker
fix that where it felt challenging and entertaining and whatnot. Curious enough, Massive Darkness 2 is kind of like an angels and demons theme as well, which is really cool. So anyway, the mechanics
00:17:41
Speaker
You're fighting in tactical combat. For those that are familiar with Fire Emblem or Final Fantasy Tactics, you're fighting on a square grid where if you have an attack that's range of two, then that's two spaces away from your character. There's no line of sight or anything like that.
00:18:00
Speaker
So you're dealing with these demons in tactical combat, you're using kind of we'll say weaker attacks to kind of build an energy bar, in essence, to, you know, and you kind of unleash is called courage, you unleash that courage to do super powerful attacks with your characters. And so you're kind of building and spending this resource. And so but at the same time, and this is where I think it gets really interesting that you're dealing with demons in tactical combat.
00:18:27
Speaker
um you have these darkness cards that come out so every round these darkness cards are going to come out and eventually if you don't deal with them they're going to flip face up and they caught they're kind of like a magic the gathering enchantments or
00:18:41
Speaker
sorceries like instant effects and they'll cripple you and damage you and hurt you. So if you just hit stuff, you're going to lose. If you're guaranteed, you will die if you don't deal with these darkness cards. And so you you have to use your prey action. And really, it's like your spiritual tools to deal with the darkness. And so I think where the core tension of the game lay is in the battle with the demons, you only win the game if you beat all the demons.
Game Strategy and Replayability
00:19:10
Speaker
Um, just in general, campaign can change that, uh, with various other, uh, you know, victory conditions, but, um, you in technical, you're a technical combat with the demons and you're, you know, balancing that against dealing with the darkness cards, which is this never ending tide that you can't, you can like kind of hold it back for a little while, but you're going to lose. And so it's, it's, it's a matter of time. Like, can you do it? Can you beat this game in time? Um, or defeat these things? It's going to get you eventually, right?
00:19:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Sounds fascinating. Well, I mean, you've already kind of answered the question because I can hear so many things that are so unique about it. But I'm sitting in the in the store or I'm on the website and I've got it in my cart. Why should I play it? Why should I make that purchase and play that game? What makes it stand out from other games that might be similar?
00:20:01
Speaker
Yeah. So the first thing is really related to the theme. So we use the Bible as the base of lore behind the theme. And if you're a Christian, I mean, it's basically kind of like Christian D&D. You would be an idiot for not buying it, right? If you like games like that. And to the non-Christian though, what actually I find, which is kind of a weird way to divide gamers, right? Like, you know, Christians and non-Christians, but this game has a religious theme and
00:20:31
Speaker
It is it is done in a manner that is very approachable because it's not going to preach at you and you're going to experience this epically awesome lore base that is not like nothing is done in the game that is cringy or
00:20:47
Speaker
you know, kind of embarrassing, you know, like, Christian games, you would imagine, most, most of the time are just slightly worse versions of existing games that are not innovative, and are just like, you want to play Settlers of Catan or Settlers of Canaan, you know, it's like, shoot me in the head, please. You know, that's, that's my attitude. And so I find that
00:21:08
Speaker
the lore, people can really appreciate that. And it's handled in a manner that is not going to judge your alternative lifestyle or whatever. It's just we're here sitting around a table. I am the subject of jokes like, you know,
00:21:25
Speaker
a pastor, a priest, an atheist, and an agnostic sit down at the board game table. That's a very common occurrence of deliverance. And so I find that that tends not to be, for 90% of players, it's actually a benefit. I've had guys say, oh, man, I trade half the games on my shelf for this right now, and I am a card-carrying member of the Church of Satan.
00:21:52
Speaker
That's a real quote. Really? Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. I've got atheists telling me, oh yeah, I've read more Bible in the last hour than I have in the last 20 years because we use Bible verses as thematic flavor text. Nothing is required reading.
00:22:08
Speaker
But, you know, like, for example, you know, whenever you use the prey action to try to cast down darkness, you've got you draw a prayer card. That's kind of the mechanism they use to draw cards. And the prayer card is kind of like additional actions or free actions that you can use to turn your tide, turn the tide of battle into your favor, because it is very much not in your favor. And so you can make, you know, you can add numbers to a dice roll to pass an important test or whatever.
00:22:36
Speaker
But the Bible verse on the back is a unique Bible verse on every card back, and that verse relates to what the front of the card does. So if it's a verse that sounds like it'll be healing or some boon like, do unto others as you would have others do unto you. It's like, oh, that's going to help us. So you draw that card with the preaction, it's like you give
00:23:02
Speaker
one of your fellow angels gets to heal and gain resources and so do you. And so it's like, you can kind of like, the term I guess is grok, the functionality of the card. And so there's just a lot of depth, you know, a lot of depth in the art. We went all out. In fact, I thought, you know, Christian games are generally garbage. And so
00:23:22
Speaker
how can I show everybody that this game really takes itself seriously? So we have some of the coolest miniature sculpts that you'll ever see, the coolest angels, they are beautiful. And they're ink washed. And so it's just it's just, they're awesome. We've got a lot of other
00:23:40
Speaker
nice things going for the game, but one of them I thought was we need art that is like overproduced. So what if we were just filthy rich and money didn't matter? How would I treat this game, which obviously I have six kids. Money does matter.
00:23:55
Speaker
a lot. And, and so, um, how would I like, what can I do that will put the emphasis in the right places to make the game look incredible? Um, I also learned like as a, as a Christian, you're not allowed to do anything just because it's cool. You have to have like a reason if you want to call your game theologically sound or inspired, you definitely have to, um,
00:24:21
Speaker
you know, make sure that that that war is not just backwards. Every corner of the game, I've really thought about it. And like, for example, the angels of deliverance, they are male and female. They're all different cultures around the world. And
00:24:41
Speaker
they are not a biblical representation of angels. In fact, that's one of the criticisms people have initially. It's like, these don't look like real angels. They just look like good-looking people with two wings. I tell them that the angels really serve as an allegory for people. I want people to see themselves and the characters they're playing. In heaven, you've got people of every nation, of every culture, and I wanted the angels to represent that.
00:25:06
Speaker
So, you know, and we use that. It's a fantasy game. We use the kind of the our cultural understanding of angels with two wings and that sort of thing. And so that's those are some of the reasons. And then another big one really like for the type of gamer that you are, if you like boss battlers, this is a really good one.
00:25:30
Speaker
you have these huge epic bosses that are each very different. In fact, I kind of liken it to World of Warcraft, you know, or other MMOs, you've got semi scripted raid boss encounters where, you know, the I don't know, like the water boss, he's gonna
00:25:46
Speaker
he's going to drop his water elementals and you've got to deal with them. And then he's going to do like the tsunami thing. And you've got to do with that. And that is kind of on, you know, a semi random timer. And then he's got also this really heavy attack. And then water is going to shoot up from the ground and geysers you have to avoid. And that's the fight. And each time that you do that, you may you know, your healer gets killed by the water geyser or whatever. It's like, well,
00:26:13
Speaker
I guess we lose. Deliverance kind of feels like that, where the combat is deterministic. You're not rolling dice to see if you hit. You're an angel, bro. You're always going to hit the demons. And so it's more a matter of figuring, finding a way through where it looks like you're going to lose. How can you survive one more round? And then before you know it, you're actually at the end where you realize, oh my goodness, I can kill this boss right before we all succumb to darkness.
00:26:43
Speaker
Wow. And so it's it's a very interesting game. It has multiple difficulty levels that that actually start customizing the demons that you fight, changing their behaviors. And it has created it's almost like Diablo, which has, you know, it's various keywords for items that kind of customize items. We did something like that for the demons so you can fight meddling imps.
00:27:07
Speaker
that have four health and are just basic. You can fight sadistic, immolated meddling imps that are on fire and start pulling the saints toward them and whatnot. And then the next battle, they might be spirit linked where they all split damage evenly among them, which can be really terrible. So it forces you to adapt and change your strategy. And these demons, they have
00:27:35
Speaker
certain, I said semi scripted. So some of the cards that come out are going to always come out at a certain time, other ones are randomized. And then they each also have a unique menu of actions. So you, it's impossible to predict perfectly what happens. And the things that you do, your best laid plans are going to have to change. And that's one of my favorite things about the about deliverance versus a lot of other kind of tactical games, like when you have deterministic combat,
00:28:04
Speaker
It's just a matter of optimizing. And your strategy that you outlined from the very beginning works a lot of the time in other games. And deliverance, you constantly have to reevaluate, which is I love it. So it's really impossible to alpha-game. You've got up to four angels that can play, or up to four players. And it's just a ton of fun. And there's a crazy amount of character customization.
00:28:30
Speaker
So you can be Michael the Archangel, and it'll force you to change, kind of force you to adapt. One game, you're Michael the Archangel, that's like, the game is all about healing Michael because he's just whomping everything, you know? And then the next game, Michael is just a huge tank that is more of a support-oriented character.
00:28:52
Speaker
So the combination is what are called the talents, like additional skills or passives or other things that you will gain, upgrades to existing skills that you will gain. You get them in a really unique way. So when you level up in the game, you get heavenly treasures for your loot, and you get talents, which are those things that customize your skills or add new skills.
00:29:17
Speaker
And there are, I mean, no two games feel alike. It's it's really, really good. And so that's I mean, that's why that's why I would back deliver. You know, so it sounds like based on all those combinations, everything, it's replayable, too. So it's not just a one one and done in a couple of games that we've played that you sit down and once you figure out the strategy that works, that's the only strategy that works. There are no others. It's a one trick pony. And those those games now sit on the shelf, unfortunately.
00:29:45
Speaker
as much fun as they were at the beginning. Well, hey, I really appreciate this. The last question for you. Where can you get deliverance if somebody's looking for it? The answer is PlayDeliverance.com. If you want to, I mean, you can buy the game there. You can learn how the game works. You can get advanced strategy kind of tips that will help you get further into the game or get, you know, kind of
00:30:12
Speaker
help you survive at higher difficulties. The game is really, really, I mean, it's, it's, it's really hard. So if, if that is your jam, then, you know, I highly recommend it at playdeliverance.com. It's 99 bucks. We'll eventually do kind of like a Black Friday sale, which is not going to be as cheap as Kickstarter or anything like that, but we're going to bundle all of the add-ons, whatever we have left. We only have like a hundred of each add-on left right now.
00:30:41
Speaker
But we're going to bundle all of that with a special Black Friday deal.
00:30:48
Speaker
But yeah, that's where you can get it. And if you're so inclined, happy to sell it to you. Keep an eye out for it if you're listening. So Andrew, it's been a pleasure. I want to thank you so much for joining the show. Everybody check out PlayDeliverance.com. Check out the crowdfunding nerds, especially if you're interested in game development, game design, kick starting. There's some great guests and things that I've learned
00:31:13
Speaker
from listening to the podcast, even that don't have to do with gaming, just general marketing and and finding out more about how how these games get created and get sold. So we'll close it out. Andrew, thanks so much. Good luck to your wife and to you with number seven. And by the time this comes out, I'm sure you'll have a you'll have a full roster over there. So thanks so much.