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051: Michael Grose on upskilling your kids to contribute
520 Plays3 years ago
We chatted with parenting expert Michael Grose about how we can get our kids to contribute more, relieve the life admin burden and grow up to be efficient at their own life admin.
Michael Grose, the founder of Parenting Ideas, is one of Australia’s leading parenting educators, informing and inspiring audiences in Australia and around the world for more than 20 years. Micheal is a former primary school teacher with 15 years of experience. He holds a Master of Educational Studies specialising in parenting education and is the father of three children He is a bestselling author of 12 books for parents including Spoonfed Generation, Thriving!, Anxious Kids and his latest re-release Why First Borns Rule the World and Later Borns Want to Change It. Michael has had parenting segments on The Project, The Today Show, Weekend Sunrise, ABC radio and more. He has contributed to Huff Post, Kidspot and Mamamia, and is a former columnist with both News Ltd and Fairfax newspapers.
What we talk aboutOur recent survey of over 300 Australians revealed that parents do 33% more life admin than those without kids, and they are twice as likely to struggle for time. During the interview, we chat with Michael about:
- how parents often underestimate what their kids can do by up to three years
- that we should never regularly do for our kids what they are capable of doing for themselves
- that kids want more autonomy and independence
- that as family sizes have shrunk we know more about each of our children, and so we give them less space to become more independent
- being aware of developing independence and providing small opportunities for kids to feel and be useful
- starting where your kids are at and pushing them along over time
- developing a 'junior version of the game' (eg like Auskick for AFL) for life admin and housework and setting the standards based on their age and stage
- that we need to not rescue kids so they can learn from their experience
- accepting what kids do as a reasonable standard if they have tried their best
- that pocket money is a great way to increase autonomy and independence and you can start from age 5
- deciding what your benchmark will be in your family for handing over responsibility for a task (eg when they make their own lunch)
- thinking about sharing the 'jobs and the joy' and wealth within your family
- using a roster to allocate chores to create the sense that the roster is creating the “ask” rather than the parents
- when kids start asking for more independence we can look at ways that we can make it happen by giving them the skills they need to do at least part of the task
- pets are great to teach kids what it is like to have someone else reliant on them
- thinking less about the amount of time that kids are spending on screens and more on what they are consuming and what the opportunity cost is (what else could they be doing)
- teenagers need parents who will challenge them
- that gender and birth order can create different expectations
- girls are often more organised at a younger age and boys may need more coaching, due to the way the brain develops differently between the genders
- firstborns tend to be more detail-orientated and introverted
- there are three aspects to consider when parenting - a child's genetics & temperament, birth order and the family frame that sets the landscape for everything else.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
At Kroger, we know the minute a tomato is picked off the vine, the fresh timer starts. The sooner we get our produce to you, the fresher it is. That's why we've completely overhauled our process to shorten the time from harvest to home for our tomatoes, strawberries, and salads. Because we know how much you love fresh produce, we give you more time to enjoy your tasty fruits and veggies at home.
00:00:21
Speaker
So whether you're shopping in-store, picking up, or prefer delivery, we're committed to bringing you the freshest produce possible. Kroger, fresh for everyone. This is Life Admin Life Hacks, a podcast that gives you techniques, tips, and tools to tackle your life admin more efficiently, to save your time, your money, and improve your household harmony. I'm Danara Roberts, an Operations Manager with two kids that seem to create more than their fair share of life admin in our family.
00:00:51
Speaker
I'm Mia Northrop, a researcher and writer who's about to get my kids fully adopting calendars, notes, lists, password managers and reminders on their iPads. It's not just for Minecraft anymore.
Interview with Michael Gross
00:01:02
Speaker
This episode we interview parenting expert Michael Gross.
00:01:06
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Life Admin Life Hacks and welcome listeners to season six of the show. We've missed recording these episodes and have had an enormous number of ideas to bring to you in this second half of the year. So we hope you've had time during our hiatus to delve into the episode archives and adopt some new tools and approaches to get your life admin humming. We're going to explore lots of new territory this season, as well as revisiting some previously discussed concepts in depth to get you back on track.
00:01:35
Speaker
Our book, Life Admin Hacks, a step-by-step guide to saving time and money, reducing the mental load and streamlining your life, is at the proofreading stage. It's so exciting. It's going to be on your shelves from January the 5th next year, so you can sign up to be notified about the book release at our website, lifeadminlifehacks.com. Just head to the section called book.
00:01:59
Speaker
We've also introduced one-on-one coaching and small group coaching programs for those of you who want a cheerleader slash accountability partner slash expert to help you level up your life admin game quickly. I've spent the last six months immersed in coach training so that I can partner with clients to identify their obstacles and explore the options at hand and get their life admin under control.
Life Admin Tasks and Parenting
00:02:23
Speaker
So I'd love to work with you to free yourself from the burden of life admin and you can head to the website and book a free discovery call with me if you'd like to find out more. And now to today's episode. Our recent survey of over 300 Australians revealed that parents do one third more life admin tasks than those without kids and they're twice as likely to struggle for time. So the question we've got is how do we get kids to contribute more and relieve the burden
00:02:52
Speaker
and grow up to be efficient at their own life admin. Yeah, this is something that we've discussed with guests in the past. And we've referenced it heavily in the book because insourcing is the new outsourcing. If they can help with more stuff, then they should. And obviously, yeah, we want them to be equipped with the skills as well. So they can live full and happy lives with their life admin under control. But for this day, we wanted to pull out the big guns and consult an expert in parenting independent children.
00:03:20
Speaker
Yeah, so stay tuned because Michael gives us some great gems of wisdom, including that parents often underestimate their child's capabilities by around three years. That you can devise a junior version of the game when you think about life admin. Just like AFL has developed Ozkick and Netball have developed Net Set Go, you can think about developing a junior set of life admin tasks to help set up expectations appropriately.
00:03:46
Speaker
And for kids, self-help starts with tasks related to their body and moves out into the home and then into the world. So it's a really great way of thinking about what tasks you can't get kids started with. If you'd like to know how best to give your child space to grow into capable kids who can handle their own life admin, this is the episode for you. Michael Gross, founder of Parenting Ideas, is one of Australia's leading parenting educators.
00:04:12
Speaker
informing and inspiring audiences in Australia and around the world for more than 20 years. Michael is a former primary school teacher with 15 years experience, holds a master of educational studies specialising in parenting education and is the father of three kids. He's a best-selling author of 12 books for parents, including Spoonford Generation, Thriving, Anxious Kids
00:04:34
Speaker
and his latest re-release, why firstborns rule the world and later borns want to change it. Michael has had parenting segments on the project, The Today Show, Weekend Sunrise, ABC, and more. And he's contributed to Huff Post, Kids Spot, and Mamma Mia, as well as being a columnist with both news and Fairfax newspapers. So now he's gracing life admin life hacks with his expertise and experience, and we are humbled. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Good on you, thanks for having me.
00:05:02
Speaker
Michael, it is quite common for people to think about how kids can contribute to housework like cleaning, cooking and laundry and the appropriate ages and stages for them to help out with these things. But life admin is really in a category of its own. So we're so thrilled to be able to talk to you about how we should nurture kids
00:05:22
Speaker
to develop their personal administrative skills and contribute to this aspect of the household. In several of our episodes, we've had guests like Tracy Spicer reveal what their kids plan and take responsibility for and often blows our minds and thinks about, you know, helps us redefine what we might expect our own kids to do. So in what areas do you think kids are often more capable than parents give them credit for?
00:05:47
Speaker
Yeah, parents often underestimate what kids can achieve and what they can do.
Nurturing Independence in Children
00:05:53
Speaker
There's an old saying of always followed it with parents will often underestimate their kids by about three years and children will overestimate what they can do by about three years. So maybe there's a meeting of in the mix there. But I guess I'm I come from a different generation for those people who can't see me now. They won't be able to see the gray hair. So I am a different generation. And I was raised with
00:06:16
Speaker
lots of brothers and sisters. And so the way I was raised is just sort of had to do things for yourself. That was an expectation. It was a large family expectation. And as families have shrunk, we tend to do a little bit more for kids and that just becomes normal. And we often underestimate the fact that kids can do a lot of things for themselves. And professionally, my professional background in parenting, and I was mentored by a fellow who's passed away now, but Professor Morris Bolson from Monash University.
00:06:45
Speaker
who wrote a book in the nineteen seventies and this shows my age a bit in the seventies and eighties he was a bit of a early guru used to actually go on radio on three a w and answer people's questions about parenting that was before parenting is now an industry.
00:07:01
Speaker
They were the days when if you went to a parenting session, you'd sort of only whisper it because, you know, parenting was, education was sort of linked with poor parenting. Now it's very normal, which was good. But Murray always used to say, never regularly do for a child the things a child could do for him or herself. So the whole notion of, I guess, parenting
00:07:22
Speaker
from that perspective and I guess it's in my DNA is as much as you possibly can standing back and allowing kids to do things from the earliest possible age and that's even toddlerhood. I know I've had my bag carried into parenting seminars by three-year-old toddlers whose parents say, no, no. And I go, yeah, okay, you can help. And you know, it's carried for about a foot and a half, about half a metre put down, but at least they're trying. So it's often those early years if we can actually grab those efforts
00:07:50
Speaker
for them to help and to do things for themselves, it often becomes normal and becomes a pattern. So I always say start early. Yeah, I do love that saying of never regularly do for a kid what they can do for themselves. And I think about that when I'm hanging up towels in the bathroom, when I'm putting plates in the dishwasher.
00:08:07
Speaker
thinking, is this regularly, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how,
00:08:34
Speaker
So going, you know, dashing out the door to kinder, I'll be going, I'll do up your shoes. He said, no, I can do very frustratingly stand back and allowed to do it. But I think if you did that all the time, nothing would ever get done. So there is a little bit of a balance. But I think my parents, your parents listen to this with with younger kids, you'll know that you actually need to slow yourself down a little bit and moving kids pace, particularly if you want to develop that little bit of independence and teach them how to be organized.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah. And that I can do, the focus of what those tasks are, very much changes when they hit, you know, teens, tween ages. What do you hear from kids about where they'd actually like more autonomy and independence in their lives? Yeah, look, toddlers and teens, they're almost similar in groups, actually. I always put them together. They want more autonomy. So toddlers say, I can do it. And teens say, I won't do it. Toddlers want more autonomy.
00:09:30
Speaker
Toddlers want more autonomy in their physical world. They want to be able to touch things, grab that cup, do it themselves, feed themselves, dress themselves. And that can be frustrating. And I know not every child wants to dress themselves. Sometimes they, you know, that's annoying sometimes for those parents who's kids who don't. But a lot of that notion of being a toddler or two or three year old is about finding out what you can do and experimenting in the world.
00:09:53
Speaker
And similarly, when kids move into adolescence, what they want is more autonomy, but they want more autonomy away from mum or dad. They want more autonomy in the physical world. They are similar in lots of ways, but what they want autonomy for an independence is a little bit different. So older kids really often want just
00:10:13
Speaker
More self-sufficiency, an opportunity to grow away from mum and dad and get some more freedoms, which I guess was granted to kids a few generations ago. You know, I grew up in an era where I think I was 12 or 13. I remember catching a train from Oakley where I lived into the city and going to the football, the MCG or going to the movies on my own. And I know my own kids.
00:10:36
Speaker
at that similar age, I didn't have that same same view. So I didn't grant them the same freedoms as I was that were granted to me. So it is more challenging for parents to grant kids those freedoms as well on this day and age.
00:10:49
Speaker
It's a really interesting point, Michael, because I find myself doing the same thing, hesitating to give my daughter, who's 14, complete control of her schedule, for example, something which, when I was 14, I had complete control of my weekends. I had to get to my own tennis competition and arrange it for myself, whereas I'm still kind of organizing her schedule. So why do you think parents are hesitating to get kids to contribute more?
00:11:18
Speaker
and control more of their lives yeah that's a really interesting point i think there's a few factors at play firstly i mentioned earlier that i was born in an age which of larger families although my i was in a family of four so technically
00:11:33
Speaker
probably not a large family, but certainly in larger families, kids were granted more freedom because mum and dad tend to delegate more. They tend to be the facilitators of the family. They can't do everything for every child. So often an older sibling would step in and do some of the parenting or look after a younger one. So mum and dad
00:11:51
Speaker
naturally step back and as families have shrunk and the mean number of kids in a family now is two in Australia, we tend to parent more individually. In some way, we know a lot. We know when they, as I often joke to parents, if you have five kids, you wouldn't know if the youngest one turned up for breakfast.
00:12:08
Speaker
But jobs right, you know, just come and tell me if you're hungry. Whereas when you've got two kids, you know exactly what they've had for breakfast and what's coming up. So we know a lot. Raising kids is always about space and intimacy. Space is the opportunity to grow away and do things on your own without someone looking over your shoulder. Intimacy is that opportunity for relationships. When we've got big families, intimacy is hard. It's hard to have a one-on-one relationship with every child. But space is easy. When you've got small families, space is our challenge, giving kids an opportunity to
00:12:37
Speaker
grow away and do things without us looking all the time and intimacy is easy.
00:12:42
Speaker
So in some ways it's to do with the smaller families. We know a lot about our kids. And also I think that the definition of parenting has shifted over the years as well. So a good parent a few years, many years ago would have been one. Well, let's go back 100 years. If you're a good parent in the Great Depression in Australia, all you have to do is point to your kids and saying they're alive and your job's half done. So the bar was pretty low. And as we've moved on, I think the job of a
00:13:09
Speaker
what a good parent looks like has changed a bit. And if you had a larger family like myself, when I sort of grew up, I think the job of a good parent was raising risk, developing independence and a responsible kid. And as families have shrunk and generations have moved on, I think a lot of
00:13:25
Speaker
parents judge their judge their parenting a little bit on what their kids can do we have a lot of vested interest in raising our kids and so i think sometimes we over control just a little bit we want to make sure that the kids can do everything and solve every problem so sometimes stepping back is the challenge and we know in larger families it doesn't matter if you've got a you know when you're going to family fire for example
00:13:48
Speaker
Parents are always stricter and closer in proximity to the first born child. By the time you get down to the fifth one, they have a great deal of space. Now, when we've only got two kids in a family, we sort of practice and break cut our teeth on the first one. And we know that the first one, regardless of whether they're a small family or a large family, that first child never gets as much freedom as the last one. Parents get tired.
00:14:14
Speaker
They get worn out. They work out what's important and what's not. By the time they get to the fifth, sixth or seventh, they're in bed by the time the seventh one comes along. But if it ever happens, the smaller family and lack of space and also the change in what we see is what a good parent does means we're just a little bit more tied up with what our kids do.
00:14:34
Speaker
So as parents, what can we do to give our kids that independence? You know, if we don't have five kids and we can't rely on that,
00:14:45
Speaker
You know, the space that happens in a large family. What should we be doing? It's a really hard one. That's where if we can start early. So part of the trick is starting with any processes, whatever process you put into place. It's really useful when it comes normal. So I'm watching my younger, my daughter who's got three kids and I've just noticed in how her three year old
00:15:06
Speaker
She spends a lot of time with her language, her language, what I call languaging. Language is, is, can you get this for me? Harry passed me that. Harry, can you take that, Carrie? So, poor old Harry's doing lots of things which mum would probably do for herself. She gives him the opportunity to cut his own food, to put the flute food on the floor, to clean it up, et cetera.
00:15:28
Speaker
The expectations are fairly high at a young age. That's part of the trick is getting in early, but I think sometimes it's just realizing the fact that kids will survive without us. Sometimes an illness in the family, when mum gets ill or gets very, very busy. And you notice I said the word mum there, because often it's mum's primary parents, but sometimes when we get absolutely busy, we stop doing things for kids and then they'll suddenly fill the gap and start to do things for themselves.
00:15:55
Speaker
But having said that, sometimes when we're so busy at home, when both parents are working, we haven't got the time to allow kids to go at their own pace.
Teaching Responsibility and Independence
00:16:06
Speaker
So it's easier sometimes to clean up the mess. It's easier sometimes just to feed them and get out the door. It's easier sometimes to give in to kids because I don't want to have that battle. Business is really hard.
00:16:18
Speaker
So I think as a parent, it's about awareness. A being aware. B, start small. Don't suddenly go right. Roast dinner tomorrow. Five year old. You're going to start tomorrow. But we start in little ways by getting kids to help in small ways. So can you set the table? From my experience, one of the easiest starting places is around the kitchen table.
00:16:37
Speaker
is getting kids to set the table, take things away from the table, maybe help you. Can you grab the such and such out of the fridge for me and pass it to me? So getting kids to feel useful and be useful as well. Again, sometimes we just want the food done. Sometimes it's quickest if I can do it in 20 minutes.
00:16:56
Speaker
We've all experienced that where as soon as a child joins in enthusiastically sometimes joins in and helps suddenly that 20 minute meal takes twice as long. So again, balance is important there. And so one of the things that I'm really keen to also explore is like, how do you manage setting, you know, what I would call the minimum acceptable standard for a task? So if you're thinking about something like, you know, as they get older, getting them to help with meal planning and grocery shopping and things, but
00:17:25
Speaker
You know, my son's idea of a perfect dinner is two minute noodles probably doesn't meet the minimum threshold for, you know, food groups. So how do we strike that happy medium between, you know, probably my standards, which are way up high and his, which are very, very low. That's a good point.
00:17:42
Speaker
So I think it's really important. I always start where kids are at. So this is the old primary teacher in me. I taught in primary school for 13, 14 years. So one of the training there was wherever kids are at, you try and start. So if you're teaching them maths, you try and start wherever they're at and what their interests are. But that doesn't mean that you accept what I call crap. So sometimes kids will, you know, I've made the bet, that'll do.
00:18:07
Speaker
If they're seven and they're just quickly flicking something over the bed and that'll do it, you might turn around and say, no mate, I reckon you can do better than that. But if you're three-year-old making a bed, maybe arrange the teddy and fix the dooner up and put your pillow on. That's a three-year-old's version of making the bed. So I think we start from where kids are at, but try and push them along a lot.
00:18:29
Speaker
So I use a notion I've written about the notion of a junior version of the game. So that comes from a lot of sports such as cricket, football, netball, all created junior versions of the games to make it easier for the kids to play. Ozkick in Australian rules, for example, is
00:18:46
Speaker
You know, they did away with the tackling. They made the ground smaller and less kids. So it made it easier for them to play. And as they get older, then the rules increase. So I think sometimes we as adults need to make the game easier for kids to play. So, you know, picking up where they are at. As I say, I often use the bed as a simple example. That's a young one.
00:19:06
Speaker
you know, makes the bed just smooth to do in it, but as kids get older, our expectations rise. Sometimes we let particularly boys off, you know, that'll do because they can be from an organisational perspective, then sometimes not as well organised and they'll often put up with lesser standard than sometimes girls will actually. So we often let them get away with it. But I think there are times when we go, no, have another go at it.
00:19:31
Speaker
Come on, do that again. And as for two-minute noodles, if it's around food, I'm not sure on that one. I might buy out of that. I've got a funny story about two-minute noodles and independence. This is actually a true story. My son was always interested in one. He didn't like to be told what to do. He liked to do things in his own way. And that's very typical boys.
00:19:51
Speaker
tend to be what we call heuristic learners. And a heuristic learner is someone who learns from the experiences. You can tell me all you want, mum or dad, that I'll find out for myself. You know, sometimes those kids who want to develop independence, we need to not rescue them, but allow them to experience that less pleasant thing for them to go, oh, next time I won't do that. Now, if there's danger, you know, if it's a child's about to pet a dog,
00:20:16
Speaker
And we know that dogs, now's not the time to learn from experience. You know, you take their hand away because you don't want to be bitten, but there are times when learning from experience is a good thing. But I remember when he was about 15, he went on a school camp and the school camp was all about developing independence. This school they went to was very much about developing independence. So school camp said, we're going on a hike. It's a five day hike. You've got to bring your own food and everything. You guys organize that. So my son thought, oh, look, they're pretty light. I'm going to take two noodles.
00:20:46
Speaker
And so he did. So for five days, he lived on two minute noodles and he got back and he said it was the worst decision he ever made because his friends had food, which was really nice. And he had two minute noodles. The teachers laughed about it. We spoke to them later and they said, look, we could have got him out of it, but it was a stupid thing he did. And we told him, he said, you're going to get sick of it after three days. He said, no, he was a teenager. I know better. And that's an example sometimes where we've got to step back as parents and let them learn.
00:21:14
Speaker
Yeah, that's the challenge. It's that resisting that urge not to rescue and let them experience it for themselves. And as you mentioned before, just like expect the gap. Note that the stand is not going to be met or it's going to be really slow or it's not going to be quite right. And be OK with that gap. Be OK with it. And that's a really good point. That gap is a lovely way of saying it. And I've always tried to and it's not it's a teaching method as well. I always tried to if kids try to do something
00:21:42
Speaker
I always accept their standard as a good standard as long as long as they were trying. So I remember when my son used to set the table, I always knew when he set the table because the knife and fork were the wrong way round because he was the left hander. We'd never actually say, oh, you know, do it the right way. Every time we do it again, next time we go right. This one goes there and this one goes there.
00:22:01
Speaker
it eventually you put it down to be in the wrong spot but he was pretty genuine about it so rather than correct him we would next time he did it just before the experience would remind him again don't forget you put the right hand so yeah that's part of the job of if we want kids to be independent part of our role is to actually be a patient teacher so in the spoon for generation you suggest things like meal planning and prep and getting the kids to manage their own school forms
00:22:26
Speaker
pocket money, what are the sort of junior versions of the game for these key activities? I love that. Okay. Junior version of the game, picking up the language. All right. Again, I think pocket money, I love pocket money, it's developing independence and helping kids to be better organized. And it's about allowing them, giving them a little bit of autonomy over their own lives. And this is one of the issues with, with kids of all ages, they want some autonomy over their lives, particularly
00:22:53
Speaker
kids when they move into adolescence and pocket money is a really good way to give them some control. You can give it to them when they're five or, and I've noticed my daughter gives her four year olds or her son, I think it was four, maybe five when he started getting his pocket money.
00:23:11
Speaker
And he got it in three jars and he still gets it, old school, but he gets it in coins. And I still see him, he puts one in one of the jars, which is for spending, one in another jar, which is for saving, another one, which is for charity or for giving, as his mum calls it. He has a little bit of autonomy there. And whenever he asks for something, mum, can I have her?
00:23:34
Speaker
his mother often says, I'll get you that now. You can pay me back later. And I've heard her whenever he said, whenever she says, I'll loan you the money or I'll give you that money because you haven't got it now. And you can pay me back later. He says no.
00:23:49
Speaker
Suddenly, the decision is his. Suddenly, I want to make that decision. And she told me she does that because she likes to give him treats, but it gets it's never a treat if she's always asked all the time, mum, buy me mum, buy me mum, buy me. So that little aspect of pocket money has now shifted that decision making over to him, even at the age of five. And certainly as kids get into into primary school and into secondary school, having that little bit of extra pocket money gives them some
00:24:18
Speaker
Give us some autonomy, give us some responsibility and independence, bringing my kids up. And I think I wrote about it in Spinford Generation. We're pretty hardcore. So we gave our kids a reasonable amount of money, but it was tied with what they had to spend it on. Their bus fare, they got us pocket money. My two girls used to ride their bus to school. Most of the day, my son often would ride his bike and pocket that money.
00:24:41
Speaker
saying they had enough allocation of pocket money in secondary school to get one meal from the canteen. You could either spend it or not, or you can make your own meal. Again, that's just that expanding. So it's expanding what they get, but also expanding what they had to spend it on.
00:24:56
Speaker
It also helped, and I think it's sometimes a good idea for parents to have some benchmarks to have a chat and maybe if there's two of you in the family to work out, what's a benchmark? What am I willing to do? And when am I willing to hand over responsibility to a child? And that's really what it is. There's a difference between a child as a helper and a child taking some responsibility. And responsibility means if a child does, forgets it, they've got to fix it up.
00:25:18
Speaker
So we decided in our own family, and I just mentioned this is a I guess a benchmark or as an example for people. We in our family, we had the notion of my wife and I made the kids lunches in primary school, but never put them in the bags. We'd make them put them on the bench. It was their job to put them in the bags. In secondary school, you made your own lunch in primary school. Basically, you got your own breakfast. And what would often happen is the older one would get the younger ones breakfast as well. So left it for them to get breakfast.
00:25:48
Speaker
So sometimes it's called self-help. And self-help, we always start from the body. And you think about it. It's when toddlers are very young, they want things closest to their body. So we start with feeding and dressing and move your way out from there. And by the time you get to adolescence, they've had all this.
00:26:06
Speaker
independence and self-sufficiency that they can from their body and they're looking at widening it around the world. So one of the easiest way to think about is how can I develop my child's self-help skills starting from their body and pushing out. So there's two aspects of this we really have been talking about as we're talking about organization. We're also talking about independence. There's the self-help, what we call self-help or self-sufficiency, and there's also an aspect of helping others. That's why kids can help, should be able to help at home without being paid.
00:26:37
Speaker
And that's how kids can contribute as well to the family. That is a good point in terms of pocket money and whether it's linked to chores in the household or whether it's
00:26:48
Speaker
unlinked or whether there's still chores that go on, your pocket money has nothing to do with that. What have you seen as being most effective? Yeah, good. That's a really good question. I'm going to talk about philosophically and then I'm going to talk about it from a practical perspective. A lot of people actually say kids should be paid for pocket money because it teaches them is you don't get a free lunch. Life never pays you. You need to be able to earn your way.
00:27:11
Speaker
And I think that is a terrific notion. We need to teach that with our kids. However, it doesn't have to be done always by linking it to pocket money. So I guess my philosophy around raising kids is the simple fact that in a family unit, it's about wheat. We've got to focus on the family. So.
00:27:28
Speaker
We share the jobs, we share the joy, we share problems, but not all problems. But if some child has a problem, we might all talk about how we can work out and help this child. But we also share the wealth. So that's where pocket money comes in as a shared part of that sort of family wealth. And you get a small amount on a regular basis and you get to make some decisions about how you spend that. If you keep spending it on really on rubbish all the time, well, maybe we will relook at it.
00:27:54
Speaker
But there's also an expectation that you help around the house because that's what we as families do. Roster's work well from that notion, developing a little roster of some of the bigger jobs. You can do that from a very early age and change them around as well. The worst job was a dishwasher. So it was always done by kids. Sometimes I'd move away when I'd see a five year old get the stuff out. I don't want to watch this.
00:28:15
Speaker
But we used to rotate that around as well. So two or three little jobs on a roster is a really good thing. And what the roster does, it gives the authority, takes authority away from you. Instead of all the time saying, do the dishwasher, do this, feed the dog, feed the cat. It's the roster almost who's doing it, if that makes sense.
00:28:33
Speaker
There are times in families and kids will they want to save them for a surfboard or they're saving up for something. There's no doubt. And we've done it ourselves that, yep, we'll give you some extra pocket money if you want to earn it as well there.
00:28:48
Speaker
Well, I like to keep pocket money separate from behavior and pocket money separate from helping. Get different strategies to get kids to help and get different strategies to get kids to behave. I've seen parents who will take away money from kids because they misbehave or give their kids money because they really, you know, they've done the right thing. That's a recipe for disaster. I've seen some things which are pretty awful there and doesn't doesn't end well because everything becomes a negotiation. Yes.
00:29:16
Speaker
So as the kids get a bit older and we start to think about other sort of administrative things that often fall on parents, I think managing their schedule and their social life just can become quite a big task.
00:29:30
Speaker
What sort of ages could we expect children to kind of manage their own schedule and start, you know, you know, public transport or walking, permitting, getting themselves to where they need to be? And how can it be done safely? That's a really, that's a really good question. How can we done safely and at what age? I'm not going to duck this one, but every child's different. So it's very hard to come up with an age. But I always use the notion of when kids start asking for something,
00:29:56
Speaker
when kids start saying, mum, can I go to that mum, can I have? That's an indication that they're getting ready to do that. So rather than saying no in two years time or no when you're older, we can look at ways we can help make that happen. So if it is the example of a 12, 13 year old who would like to be able to navigate their way into the city. And this happened with my own son. So good way to use the example. He was
00:30:23
Speaker
14, 15, we live on the peninsula and he wanted to go to a big day out concert with his mate. So as a parent, you're, you're, you're sort of run through the filter. You think, what's his mate like? Is he responsible or not? It's going to be that Australia, all that sort of thing. You run through and go, well, what's, what's my son like? And what's his experience? And his experience had been, it's pretty good at that sort of stuff. So you run that through as a filter. Yeah, they're pretty good.
00:30:48
Speaker
And then my wife and I had a chat and we said, I don't think he's actually quite capable. That's a big ass to go from Frankston all the way into the city by train, doing a concert and then all the way back. But we wanted to, we recognized he was pretty genuine the way he asked.
00:31:02
Speaker
and we wanted to make him be able to do it next time. So we drove him all the way into the city. He caught the train from Melbourne out to the showgrounds. We spent a day in the city and then we met him at seven o'clock or something like that at the Flinders Street station. We drove him home. Then next year, I think it was about 16 or whatever it was, he was okay and he went on his own. So that fitted nicely. It was a nice little doable thing for us. But if we can,
00:31:30
Speaker
See when kids are wanting to do things and start to skill them up and give them the opportunity to do things for themselves. That's a really good sign. I've always used that as a sign. Kids start to ask for do things. That's an opportunity then to go, well, they're going to be ready in a year or two or a month or two. Let's see how we can make this happen. Even if it's, mum, can I get you a cup of tea? Oh no, the water's really hot.
00:31:52
Speaker
Well, maybe, you know, how are we going to start that process? Maybe I'll just pour the hot water in and you can, you know, it's going to be halfway and you can carry it in. There's always a way we can, we can start that process, particularly in secondary school. Kids are often very capable of doing things and often it's a really simple things such as getting them to ask the teacher for a favor. My daughter went over overseas when she was 15 to on exchange and she came home as a 15 year old.
00:32:20
Speaker
She wanted to go to denmark on exchange because you have to learn the language cuz she found out that they speak a lot of english so that show what she wanted to do not go over for the language but my wife and i.
00:32:33
Speaker
because she was young, 15 is really young to go away for 12 months on an exchange, as she found out. To prove that she was capable of doing it, we actually turned around to her and said, okay, you've got to drive this project. We understand that you want to go, but one of your friends is gone and you've heard it's great. You've got to drive the project. And driving the project meant
00:32:53
Speaker
You find out who this group is. You make the phone calls. We all the intermediary, we'll take you and we'll do everything, but we want to make sure that you can run this project. And she did. She was the one who organized and said, we've got to go to a night here, etc. And so she did a lot of that. And that was for two reasons. Firstly, it was to make sure she was fully invested in it. She wasn't going to do that since she wasn't fully invested. And secondly, if she could do that, that was proof that she was able to handle life without mum and dad all the time.
Digital Device Management
00:33:23
Speaker
My other thing I often say with kids, particularly teenagers when they say they want to go somewhere, I often say to them, convince me, you want to do this now, convince me, tell me about what's happening. Well, and then that's often a good way for either them to realize that maybe it's going to be harder than they thought, whatever it is. And secondly, it'll give you an idea if they've got an understanding as well.
00:33:47
Speaker
That makes me laugh, Mark, because a friend of mine recently received a PowerPoint presentation from their seven year old about why they should get a dog. So I think they took the convincing their parents to a whole new level. So I have a theory about pets and pets are there's a deferred notion to pets. Parents always look after their kids pets because their parents looked after their pets. Think about that one. Yes.
00:34:12
Speaker
On a serious note, pets are fantastic for kids and it doesn't have to be a dog. It can be the beginning pig. It can be the small pets which kids bring up because it teaches them A, to nurture and B, it makes someone else reliant on them. Whenever I work with kids and I used to run leadership programs in school. So when I left teaching, I moved into the parenting area and we ran leadership programs in school and we still have a
00:34:40
Speaker
a program which runs in primary schools called the Young Leaders Program. But I remember when I used to work with kids, I used to ask them a bunch of questions, and one which was always an interesting one, particularly when you're asked an 11-year-old, because some of them couldn't answer it. And this is a good one for parents to think about this, because I've often said it in parenting presentations, and I hear this, ooh, ooh.
00:35:03
Speaker
I get this quiet and it's just this simply, what do you do at home that someone else relies on? What is it that you do at home that someone else relies on? You know, so that's where you're looking after a pet. Someone's rely, you know, the pets reliant on that. Or is it emptying the garbage or whatever? Is it you got some little responsibility that someone else relies on? So pet keeping is good for that. My, my son's been putting together a little campaign about getting pets.
00:35:30
Speaker
Oh, I'm going to, yes, make some suggestions there. Be careful what you wish for for pets, because don't forget, it might be you who looked after it. But anyway, that's another.
00:35:41
Speaker
So I guess one that's also very interesting to me is to start to think about technology and, you know, especially, you know, we've experienced, I guess, the rules have loosened substantially in my household because of lockdown. But, you know, I've put quite strict screen time limits on all of my devices. So at what age, you know, shall I start to be letting them kind of, you know, go free in and stop controlling what the amount of time and I guess what they can see.
00:36:10
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know if you ever let kids at any age go holus bolus just off you go. I think we're always monitoring what even when kids are 16, 17, we need to be having an idea of what's going on in their lives and are you going out to parties? What are you doing?
00:36:30
Speaker
And it's not, oh, now you're 17, 18, hit the Terps whenever you want or whatever it is. And that's quite similar always with the digital technology. I think, you know, that you're dead right. The game's changed a lot now. Kids spending more time. The questions to be asking.
00:36:46
Speaker
is not so much how much time, but what are you using it for and what else could you be doing? And I've been talking to Dr. Christy Goodwin, who's doing some fantastic work in Australia on in the area of digital media and digital technology and parents. And she does some work for us for parenting ideas. And she just ran out.
00:37:05
Speaker
a great webinar with a thousand people come along on digital devices answering just that question. And she basically comes up with the viewers. It's not the amount of time. It's what they're using it for. And it's also the opportunity cost.
00:37:22
Speaker
So while they're in front of a screen, they're not outside, they're not playing with friends. And again, I'm going to go back to the whole notion of it is all about balance. And if your child's learning all the time and does all their learning in front of a screen, there needs to be other opportunities to do learning.
00:37:40
Speaker
involved in entertainment, always in front of a screen, they're not being entertained in other places. So it really is that opportunity cost is now we're looking at as one of the big things. So no easy answer to that one, but have a look at the balance and make sure kids are not just spending all their time there, but playing outside.
00:37:59
Speaker
mixing with other people, mixing with the family. And often, and we've discussed this to a lot, it's often the kids who are at risk who fall through the cracks when it comes to digital media. So I think most parents are now pretty aware of that message of a number of us grew up at the time where you stick your kids in front of the TV as the electronic babysitter there for three or four hours. Great. And we know that's not good for kids. And I think parents now are aware that spending all the time in front of a screen is not that is not great for their mental health. It's not great for their
00:38:28
Speaker
social health as well.
00:38:30
Speaker
And I've noticed just as an aside of someone who's given presentations up to 80 presentations a year, I've been giving digital presentations over the last 18 months. And I know for a fact, because I gave a couple of presentations in front of an audience in May when we were allowed to in Melbourne. And my skills were so rusty, I'd forgotten what it's like. And then suddenly realized, wow, I'm digitally okay. But my skills in front of away from the digital are not any good because I've gotten very rusty.
00:39:00
Speaker
It's part of our lives. There's no doubt about it. It's part of our lives. But there's also other aspects of our lives as well. And that follows through with kids. So I don't think we ever divest our responsibility as parents, even when they're teenagers, we need to be what I call monitoring, going, knowing what's going on, having those conversations, you know, three hours here, and that's a good enough time. And one of the things about teenagers is they need to be challenged. They need parents who will actually challenge them as well and not just accept and go, Oh, are you a teen? That's okay. Yeah.
00:39:31
Speaker
So yeah, it looks like Diana, we're still going to be looking at the life admin tools we can use to monitor screen time and automate, just like the roster takes it away. It's not the roster, it's not us that's telling you to do the dishwasher, it's the roster. Yeah, but I have to now become a digital expert because my 12-year-old navigates, figures out how to get around everything. So I've got to take a degree in screen time settings so that I can trick him into making sure that he complies.
00:39:59
Speaker
I guess I knew that that was the answer, Michael. I guess I was hoping you would be able to say, magically, no, no, when he turns 15, you can just let go. No, actually, I'll be a boring old parenting person now.
00:40:13
Speaker
And the boring old parenting person found out that the boys in the 18 to 24 age group are the most at risk group. And one of the reasons is that they've moved away from most of their connections, their school connections and workplace and often family connections. We need to always be sort of keeping an eye on kids all the way through, particularly as they move into early adulthood
Pandemic Effects and Play
00:40:35
Speaker
as well. But that's another story. It did sort of trigger in me some ideas too around how people are
00:40:41
Speaker
navigating the pandemic and the things that they're getting their kids to do that they wouldn't possibly have done before, like having to leave them because you have to go to the supermarket and you can only take one person in the family. So you're leaving your kids at home, which you would not have done at this age, or you're sending your kids up to the shops because you've got yet another Zoom meeting and you need some groceries so the kids might be going up to the shops and it's
00:41:03
Speaker
by themselves to buy something at a younger age. I know why kids have been up to shops, I've never left them in the past, but there are some opportunities there for the kids to be contributing more and growing during this time.
00:41:16
Speaker
Oh, there certainly are. I had a conversation with a group of principals in Queensland at a conference earlier this year when we could go to conferences. And one of the big comments they said was kids develop a lot more independence in primary school. And one of the things they said was that because parents couldn't go in for the school gate. Yeah.
00:41:34
Speaker
So they have to meet them at the school gate, leave them there and off they go. So the kids carry their own bags, do their own messages and all the rest of it. So, yeah, I can see that. I can see one other aspect. I'm not sure what it's like where you are, but I'm seeing kids at the moment. And I'm sure your listeners won't mind knowing that this is being recorded during a lockdown. But where I am, I'm seeing a lot of kids ride pushbikes around.
00:41:57
Speaker
in lockdown, you know, after school or, you know, probably, you know, lunchtime inverted commas, which is fantastic. So I think there's compluses here where kids are getting a little bit more freedom. They're not as fully invested in afterschool activities. And a lot of kids in this day and age have very busy afterschool activities.
00:42:16
Speaker
And there's a cost to that. One of the costs is that kids miss the opportunity to keep themselves busy, miss the opportunities of just having a bit of fun and and mucking around. So it looks like mucking around might be back on the agenda for a bit as well. So there's some pluses there.
00:42:33
Speaker
And, you know, the parroting researcher actually says that why mucking around and play is really important is and free play is puts a locus of control on kids. They can control it as opposed to doing it after school activities, which adult organised and adult initiated. So when kids start to play their own things, they become very creative. They practice conflict resolution. They do a whole bunch of stuff as well.
00:42:58
Speaker
that we adults don't know about. In a way, we don't really want to know about it until something... Don't come to me until you... unless you've got some blood is the reaction. Yeah, I laugh when they close the playgrounds and the kids in our neighbourhood just gravitate to an oval where there's this massive pine tree and instead of them all climbing over the climbing equipment in the playground, they were all in this one tree, making cubbies and hanging out. And then when there was a rope put around the tree,
00:43:28
Speaker
they all gravitated to this kind of like garbage dump slash building site. And they were just mucking around in there. So I was kind of delighted that they found these wild ways to play because it can't be deterred by the playground being closed. Yeah, it's great. Lovely story.
00:43:45
Speaker
Well, you touched on it a little bit earlier before about some of the gender expectations that are placed on kids when it comes to looking after themselves, essentially, and contributing in households.
Family Dynamics and Independence
00:43:55
Speaker
Are there different things we need to keep in mind around how we're parenting kids of different families? Yeah, there's cultural expectations around gender. And I made the point when I was discussing my book, Why Firstborns Run the World, and later borns want to change it, that a lot of expectations go on firstborns.
00:44:14
Speaker
However, if a firstborn for some cultures is a girl, then maybe the firstborn boy might be who may be second in the family is treated more like a firstborn and the expectations are higher. So we certainly have gender expectations. But I think also, too, that girls
00:44:32
Speaker
There's a natural predisposition for girls their young age to be reasonably better organized than boys. So that's around the early brain development. Boys will often need more coaching. And I'm sure there's parents listening to this going, yes.
00:44:46
Speaker
And what do I mean by, by coaching? You can often tell a girl to, you know, line your shoes up or put, make your shoes neat. And they'll have a fair idea what that means, but you might have to actually show your son what, you know, line your shoes up like this here, do it with me. Or if we're trying to organize their homework.
00:45:04
Speaker
boys will often need assistance to be organized. And it's often around the way the brain is in the early years is developed. So the brain of a girl in the in the early years and in childhood is more focusing on verbal skills, fine motor skills and social skills for the finer points. And boys are more focused on gross motor skills.
00:45:27
Speaker
visual skills. And so they're developing different aspects. So that's why sometimes boys get really flummoxed by, I can't get organised, I can't, I don't know how to do it. So we often as parents need to show them the way and take the time there to show them. So I think gender wise, they're not the same. We often have expectations of girls which are different than boys. And also development wise, sometimes it's easier for girls to be a little bit more organised than it is for boys.
00:45:56
Speaker
That's really interesting, Michael. But what about birth order? You mentioned it briefly before. How's that likely to impact who's going to be more organized or adept at creating systems? Well, first bonds are supposedly more organized group, but I guess gender comes in there as well. So I haven't really looked at birth order as far as being organized goes. I know first bonds tend to be more detail oriented and more introverted.
00:46:24
Speaker
I think whether that goes hand in hand with being organized, I'm not sure. I think there's a little bit around about what what's been expected of you as well when you're growing up. So in my family, the expectations around girls helping out were different than boys helping out. I think it still holds true to a reasonable degree, although we're catching up. I think there's so many factors for parents to keep in mind in terms of, you know, gender, the times we're living in, birth order, to bring some compassion and some patience.
00:46:54
Speaker
We can overthink it a bit. I like to always, and I don't want to overthink this, I always put it down this, I don't want to get philosophy. It's not the time for philosophy or anything like that. So one way to look at it is, and I always look at parenting this way, there's three aspects to it. So it's genetic. So it starts off, I call it G and T, gin and tonic. So you'll remember that.
00:47:19
Speaker
Genetotics at the bottom, G is for genetics, T is for temperament. So kids are born with genetics and born with a certain temperament. So genetic angle is what's passed on from parents and the temperament is something you are born with and it doesn't change over time. I've got two girls. I've got a, as I've mentioned before,
00:47:38
Speaker
And there are either end of the sociability scale, which is part of temperament. I've got a slow to warm up and a quick to warm up. As kids, they were treated. I had to treat them differently. My slow to warm up whenever we go into a new social situation as a four or five year old, she'd take her time just to get to warm up. In the meantime, the older one was she's off playing and the younger one would just have to wait a time. And then off she go once she got warmed up, so to speak.
00:48:01
Speaker
that hasn't changed in 30 years, it's still much the same. So the G&T, most parents will know that's the aspect of, we've just got to work with that. We can't change it, you've got to work with it. The slow to warm up, yep, I'm going to have to just wait with you while you're in. I'm going to have to give you some few tips to help you make friends. The other one, no dramas. Then we throw around that, the birth order, and the birth order is what is about differences as well.
00:48:27
Speaker
And kids are niche marketers and they'll often go for the things in the family which which give them attention. So, if the first one's a responsible one, there's a reasonable chance the second one might be a pest. At least I know I'm around. If the first one's a really independent one and does everything that keeps mum happy, there's a reasonable chance the second one won't be as independent.
00:48:47
Speaker
because they might do something else. So if you're talking about independence, they're not all going to be as independent in the same possible way. So that counts for the differences. And then what we throw around that, the third aspect is what we call a family frame, which is probably what we're talking about now.
00:49:02
Speaker
You can tell your family frame by what your kids have in common. As they get older, if they're all pretty independent, even your least independent one, but compared to others, they're all pretty independent. They can give themselves a feed, cook a meal, whatever it might be. Well, that shows that independence is part of your family frame. If they're all, you know, excellence or they're all very curious or they're all learners,
00:49:25
Speaker
That shows that curiosity and learning is part of your family frame. So that's your values. So the things you nag your kids about makes up your family frame. And that's what your kids have in common. So in some ways, that's the space we're playing at now. That's the parenting space. All the things you nag your kids about and you're on to them about. That's that's what we operate from. That's the real parenting impact.
00:49:51
Speaker
You've got to adapt to the genetics and you've got to work around that. And, you know, I love my child to be independent, but he's not quite there. He hasn't got the skill set, hasn't got the temperament set.
Closing Remarks
00:50:02
Speaker
We'll do our very best, but it's the commonalities. That's the space we're playing at. So don't sweat the small stuff. Think about the big stuff. And then it's more the long term as well. And that's a beautiful place to finish, Michael. I love that idea of thinking about the family frame and taking things up to that higher level.
00:50:20
Speaker
That's setting the landscape for everything else. Thank you so much for your sharing of your experiences and your ideas today. That's a pleasure. It's been fun. So listeners, you can find more from Michael at parrotingideas.com.au. If you'd like to hear more, we're thrilled that you could have you here to kick off season six with us. Fantastic. Thanks very much. Thanks for listening. Show notes for this episode are available at lifeadminlifehacks.com. And if you're a fan,
00:50:49
Speaker
Please subscribe and share the love and tell a friend or review us in your podcasting app. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
00:51:01
Speaker
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