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00:00:01
Healing Communities and Landscapes through Ranching with Carlyle Stewart
192 Plays1 month ago
Carlyle Stewart is living many of the core ideas behind Agrarian Futures. Like many of us, he grew up without a close connection to farming or our agricultural landscapes, but that didn’t stop him from taking a massive leap to move across the country and establish himself as a skilled cattle rancher. He fuses these skills with wise-beyond-his-years thoughtfulness about what it means to steward the land, lift up rural communities, and confront the complicated - and often violent - history of westward expansion and ranching.
This conversation is bursting with insights from his time spent on the land as well as his background in divinity school and as a community organizer.
In this episode, we cover:
- Carlyle’s eclectic journey from Detroit, to divinity school, to life as a cattle rancher.
- Finding purpose, meaning, and satisfaction through a deeper connection with the land.
- The ins and outs of ranching and managing cattle in a regenerative fashion.
- The challenges of building a sustainable economic future in ranching and creative ways of getting the next generation back on the land
- The importance of a more direct relationship with your food.
- Reconciling the complicated, violent history of western expansion and ranching, with the importance in stewarding these landscapes.
- New approaches for communal land ownership and stewardship to support rural, black, and indigenous communities.
- And much more...
You can follow Carlyle on Instagram.
More about Carlyle:
Carlyle Stewart, originally from the Metro Area of Detroit, Michigan. Is a teacher, minister, writer, rancher, horseman, and land manager. His first major exposure to ranching in the intermountain west was through the Quivira Coalitions New Agrarian Program. He has worked on various cow/calf and yearling operations throughout Montana and New Mexico. He is in the process of developing his own grazing operation that will be centered around his passions for agricultural mentorship and healthy land stewardship. He is currently living and working in Northern New Mexico.
Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexandre Miller, who also wrote our theme song.
Transcript
00:00:03
Speaker
We have to move away from the idea of needing to possess everything. And yes, I do think ownership provides generational security and wealth and all the things to people knowing that I can't be kicked off this or, you know, this can't be swept from under me. and for For some of my family, like that's really important. But the truth of the matter is the land needs to be cared for and managed regardless of who owns it. But how can we get a larger population of young producers who share the similar vision and goals on the land, but not just on the land, but how do you keep them on the land? you know it's It's one thing to get somebody in the door, but how do you get to keep people in the work, in the vocation, in the profession? And I think that that requires a ah lot more creativity.
00:01:00
Speaker
You are listening to Agrarian Futures, a podcast exploring a future centered around land, community, and connection to place. I'm Emma Ratcliffe. And I'm Austin Unruh. And on the show, we chat with farmers, philosophers, and entrepreneurs reimagining our relationship to the land and to each other to showcase real hope and solutions for the future.
00:01:29
Speaker
Welcome Carl out to the agrarian futures podcast. Really excited to be talking with you today. We've been talking through this podcast to quite a few ranchers and farmers and a theme that keeps coming up is the difficulty of the journey into ranching when you come from a non-farming background. But you've done that. You also come originally from Detroit and did a degree in divinity, if I'm correct.
00:01:57
Speaker
So could you start us off by telling us of all things, how did you go from Detroit and divinity school at Harvard to ranching? Yeah, that's a good question. Well, first I'll say thanks for having me on. I think this is a great opportunity to share some of my experience with a lot of folks who probably have some of the same questions or challenges, but to answer your first question. Um, so yeah, I grew up in the Metro area of Detroit, Michigan kind of was like a typical suburban kid for most of my life. Didn't really have a lot of exposure to agriculture or farming or rural living.
00:02:33
Speaker
But from a young age, I always knew that that's a lifestyle and a work that I was drawn to. I mean, from the age of like, I'd say probably 12, 13, I knew I wanted to get into ranching and become a rancher and get into cowboying. That was something that I wanted to do. But it wasn't really a viable option coming from where I came from, because that's not what people did. like You walk the tradition around, you either went to college or learn to trade or just kind of did the typical path. But that's something that I was always interested in because I was always interested in food. I was interested in in the care and and management of large landscapes. It was always nurturing a a strong passion for horsemanship too.
00:03:12
Speaker
So I had all these interests that I had as a suburban kid, but didn't have an outlet and a way to explore them. But it's something I held on to for most of my life. And as I got older, I went to undergrad school at Michigan. I studied psychology and philosophy there and the University of Michigan. And then from there worked different jobs throughout my early to mid twenties before going back to grad school and studied ah liberation theology, specifically within the black liberation of theology tradition.
00:03:39
Speaker
And yeah, you know, worked in churches, worked as a community organizer, worked as a youth minister, did a lot of different things that I enjoyed and discovered that I had gifts for, but something was always pulling me back to agriculture, to land management. And I came across the Kavera Coalition new agrarian program on a Google search one day, and my world was just completely turned upside down, just reading about it and discovering that there was an organization that actually had a program that people who didn't grow up in agriculture could get their start. And once I saw it, I knew that that's what I was going to do. And that's what I did. So in the spring of 2022, I worked for the Milton Ranch in Roundup, Montana, which is a large cow calf operation that practices holistic grazing, holistic land management. Bill was a great mentor and they probably one of the best mentors I ever could have had from somebody i mean coming from where I came from and having the minimal experience that I did. Very patient, very
00:04:33
Speaker
knowledgeable, very brilliant, and we still keep in keep in contact to this day. So so yeah, you know I guess to try to answer your question in more depth, it's a spiritual experience for me managing land. Because I think when you look at a lot of the world's indigenous traditions from you know every continent on this planet, people's understanding of the divine of of spirituality was always rooted in It was rooted in the food that they depended upon for life, the animals that provided them with that food, the landscapes that they depended upon for life. So I think connection to land and that spiritual connection is something that most human beings intuitively are aware of and feel, which is why people you know drive thousands of miles to visit national parks and wait in line.
00:05:15
Speaker
It's something that we all feel and know I think is a part of our makeup, but in the modern world in the 21st century, we're so disconnected from it. I mean, we live it during a time where ah you can have no connection to your food source. Like you don't have to know where it comes from. You don't have to know who grew it. You don't have to know anything about it.
00:05:32
Speaker
But that's relatively recent. you know I mean, 100 years ago, 150 years ago, and before, it wasn't like that. you know So I think this system that we live in has changed so fast. And our minds, and I think our hearts and our spirits have not been able to keep up with that change as much. So we find ourselves craving ah natural ways of living and existing with the world. So I mean, that's something that's always been a part of who I've been on the most foundational level. So I guess I just reached the point where I wanted to dive into it no matter how hard it was going to be, no matter how uncomfortable boy it was going to be. I told myself it was something that I was going to learn and ah to devote myself to fully. So that's what i what I decided to do. Still don't have it figured out, but I'm trying.
00:06:12
Speaker
Thanks for sharing. That's really powerful. So you went from all these diverse experiences, studying undergrad and grad and community organizing and working in churches. Wow, it sounds like yearning for more of a connection to land for a lot of it. You then find the severe coalition. You get this internship at Milton Ranch.
00:06:35
Speaker
What was that like suddenly going from you know the urban world to being on a ranch in rural Montana? Yeah, good question. Honestly, people are surprised when I say this, but it was probably the easiest transition I've ever had in my life. Just being on that landscape and and learning the work and building a life there, the transition. I mean, there's always an adjustment, you know your your physical body being in a new place. It takes time for you to adjust. I mean, new elevation, new food, new water, new everything. But on a deeper level, when I was there and started working there, I knew that that's exactly where I needed to be.
00:07:10
Speaker
And I mean, I had my ups and downs. There's challenges that I had there. It wasn't perfect by any means, like no, no experience is perfect. But for the most part, moving there and learning the skills of ranching stockmanship, horsemanship, land management, all these different things, infrastructure maintenance, all those things I really enjoyed and took to pretty quickly, I would say. Bill might say something else, but I think he would agree.
00:07:33
Speaker
So it sounds like you never looked back, at least from ah an emotional perspective. You never doubted your decision. For people that are less familiar with what ranching looks like on a large scale ranch, could you briefly tell us like what what did those early days look like? What were you doing? What was your like daily life like?
00:07:51
Speaker
Yeah, so the time that I arrived, I arrived in, I think it was early March. So ah we hadn't started calving yet. And Bill, they calved a little bit later, beginning in late April. So we were still doing a lot of winter grazing. And the type of management that Bill Milton practices, he really focuses on a high stock density grazing, which is a method of land management and moving cattle throughout a landscape where you concentrate a large number of animals on a small piece of ground for a short period of time.
00:08:20
Speaker
And the idea is that by concentrating cattle more tightly like that, it mimics the movements of the buffalo and the bison when they used to, millions of them used to roam the West. And when animals are in tightly packed quarters like that, you know, they're depositing dung and urine, they're fertilizing the ground, they're helping to create more impact. And what they're not harvesting, you know, hopefully is going to get you know pressed down on the soil and become organic matter that gets fed back into the soil. And grass really responds to that under the right conditions. so That's the type of management that we were practicing. So what that involved was moving cattle with electric fence probably every one to two days. um So it's putting down electric fence, taking up electric fence, putting down electric fence and doing that pretty much constantly. And then late April, we started calving and we're having some challenges that year. So that took up a lot of time. But for the most part, the day-to-day management involves moving them through the landscape.
00:09:15
Speaker
in a pretty intense way. And the whole idea behind that type of management is giving grass a longer period of rest and recovery. But also by constantly moving cattle on the fresh feed, you're optimizing animal performance by continuing to get them or give them ah fresh grass. And the grass that they do graze, however intensely it is, it has a lot more time to recover because you're not coming back for a long time versus a form of continuous grazing where animals can just eat the same things over and over and over.
00:09:45
Speaker
And over time, if not managed properly, that can, um, and not an every set case, but it can damage the root system from repetitively being grazed without enough rest and recovery time. So that's the overall philosophy of how we manage cattle on that place. So you guys are practicing holistic management. How common is that in your area? And you, could you quickly also talk about the difference between how you guys are doing it and what more traditional ranching looks like?
00:10:11
Speaker
Yeah. When I first came into it, the people that Bill ex exposed me to and being a part of the severe program and a lot of these ranchers in Montana who practice that type of management, I thought that that was the norm. I thought everybody was doing that because that was my first real exposure to cattle ranching. But the more that I've worked in this industry, I learned that not everybody manages like that. It's not simply because they have no interest in it, right?
00:10:35
Speaker
And I'm very careful. I don't want to say that, you know, that's the right way in every context and continues grazing or in more traditional ranching is the wrong way in every context. I'm not going to say that because I've worked in a lot of different places and there's certain things that we did up and round up that wouldn't work on our ranch that i I worked on in New Mexico. So I think there are different methods that all are designed to prioritize soil health. and taking care of your grasses and taking care of your cattle. But in that context specifically, it worked pretty well. And I think the principles apply in a general sense in a lot of places, but like in arid, semi-arid rangelands, especially when you're talking about like a place, our lot last place, I worked eight, 10,000 acre pastures. Good luck stringing hot wire on a pasture like that with herds of thousands of elk running through, you know.
00:11:20
Speaker
Because I've been exposed and have learned a lot from a lot of different types of people, I think that a person just has to figure out what works best for their context and for the land that they manage and for the type of animals that they're they're also trying to raise as well. so It's, it's all about context. I think something that people from the outside have so much trouble understanding that there's like, it's truly, there's not one way to do it right. It depends on your landscape, your context, your cultural landscape as well. So many factors. And, and that's where the, the scale and knowledge really comes in. It's like that deep kind of understanding of the place that you're in.
00:11:56
Speaker
So you went from working on Milton Ranch to, it sounds like, a number of other different ranches over the past few years. You're now working on a ranch in New Mexico, and you've also mentioned wanting to start your own grazing outfit. So tell us a little bit about what that looks like. what What are your hopes for the future in terms of trying to find a ah career for yourself?
00:12:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's a good question. And I think this ties into maybe another question about like challenges in and coming into this pretty green and without a ton of experience or or ah like land-based or resources. Part of the reason why I want to start my own contract-raising business is because i I've learned what type of ranching I enjoy the most.
00:12:40
Speaker
And I think what that'll allow me to do is really to ranch in a way where I'm doing it kind of on my own, on my own time, on my own schedule. I'm doing it for myself, but also building relationships with other people. But one of the challenges that I've had so far is just working in places that don't allow for like the whole quality of life. I mean, you may be two hours from nearest town.
00:13:04
Speaker
You may be working on a place where the pay is not the best. You may be working on a place where the housing is not the best. I mean, there's all these different things that make Ranch, especially coming into it a little bit older, make it difficult. And I also have other interesting things that I want to pursue. You know, I haven't abandoned like some of the work that I was doing before. I'm still interested in doing.
00:13:23
Speaker
that in tandem with agriculture. So creating my own grazing business, I think would give me the opportunity to run cattle for people seasonally in the spring and the summer and and find and identify leashes, possibly in the area that I could get my start. you know And I really do like cowboy. I love being able to spend a lot of time in the saddle. I love spending a lot of time with the herds that I'm caring for, really getting to know them, really focusing on training horses and learning the landscape and just really perfecting or refining my stockmanship. And I really enjoy yearling, like running yearlings too, because I think you can get a lot more creative with how you graze them because you can pretty much move them anywhere they need to go. You point a group of yearlings in a direction and just take them there. and
00:14:05
Speaker
Gray's areas, it might be a little bit more difficult with pears. You can maybe move them a little bit more frequently. So I think I would really like to start a business where I am of identifying leases that I can you know have for myself, that I can pay a lease on the place and quite possibly get hired by a cattle owner to run those cattle seasonally, which would give me, I think, a little bit more autonomy in my life as far as other things that I'm trying to pursue, but also a way to make maybe a little bit more money. I think that's one of the greatest challenges in is ah the financial side of things. I was talking to a guy today, and I said, man, how does a working cowboy like make build a life on ah on a salary that we they get? And he's like and and then I asked him, like how does a working cowboy raise a family you know on the salary? He's like, you don't, period. You got to find alternative streams of income, or you got to go into business for yourself. You got to have other things going. i mean And that's just the ugly truth about it that you don't always realize until you get into it. Because from the outside looking in, it's always
00:15:04
Speaker
you know, it looks cool, it looks fun, it looks fulfilling, and it's all those things. But there's also the other side that the outside world doesn't necessarily see when they're watching yellow stuff. So yeah, I think, ah yeah, there's a lot of different things that have motivated me to go into business. But really just also, I mean, I'm turning 30 in a few weeks and really trying to build something of my own and really just ah try to get into business for myself, which I think will be good.
00:15:25
Speaker
Yeah, not not a easy life economically. Maybe very rewarding in other ways, but it's um shocking how dire the situation is economically. Yeah, it's hard to make it work. Yeah, it really is. It's really hard to make it work, despite the fact that you're literally growing the food and that people rely on to survive. So it's a really insane conundrum. You talked about kind of what people don't see from the outside necessarily, and obviously that the economic challenges is one of them.
00:15:53
Speaker
Coming from a non-ranching background, and I'm guessing probably still having a lot of friends and family maybe that are not really tied in any way to this type of life, what are some of the biggest misconceptions you think people have around what ranching and farming is? I think.
00:16:12
Speaker
ranching, cattle ranching in particular, maybe not so much farming, but ranching is probably one of the, if not the most romanticized profession in America. And I think a lot of that just has to do with the history of America and how you idealize the cowboy and you know, Western expansion and all these different things in television and media. There's so many things that make people look at that and think it's this romantic, just free lifestyle where, you know, you don't have the same problems that other people have. You're kind of just living this life free on the land. And I think that that it does more harm than good for the agriculture community. I really do.
00:16:48
Speaker
Don't get me wrong, there are aspects to the job that are romantic, right? There are glimpses and moments, but oftentimes those glimpses are followed by something that you got to figure out that you know has changed the entire course of your week or month. yeah Whether that's the market, the market's not doing what you thought they would, or grass not growing like you thought it would.
00:17:07
Speaker
or sickness breaking out in your herd or equipment breaking down, cattle escaping. There's just so many different things that make your day-to-day existence, that can make your day-to-day existence very frustrating. And I think that the challenge of ranching, of living a life on the land. That's something that I've fallen in love with, which might sound kind of strange, but it's like every single day it's different. You don't really know what the day is going to look like. And one thing about this work is if you're allowed to, it can really sharpen your mind because it forces you to learn how to be resilient. It forces you to learn how to deal with things that you didn't anticipate. It forces you to work on remaining positive and you know stand after it, even though
00:17:48
Speaker
you know your body's dead tired, your mind is dead tired, you're beat. ah You don't have nothing left, but you gotta keep going because there's however many animals relying upon you. There's people relying on you to get the job done. I mean, so there's a lot of things that will really toughen you up quick, I think. And you know people don't see the challenges, but I think a lot of people who do ranch will probably tell you that it ain't easy, it ain't always fun, but it gets in your blood. And when that happens, it's hard to walk away from it when you've been changed so much by it.
00:18:18
Speaker
And that's where I find where I'm at. like I don't always know what the next step is going to be. I don't really know how I'm going to always make things work. But I do know that mentally and spiritually, I'm stronger and more sound than I ever was doing anything else. And I think that's enough for me to keep going, even though from a logical or economic standpoint, it makes absolutely no sense. Because for me, I guess like you know my pop told me when I was younger, he's like, look, man,
00:18:44
Speaker
you're going to You're going to suffer no matter what you do. like You're going to struggle. It doesn't matter if you are working a comfortable job. It doesn't matter if you're doing following your passion or your dreams or whatever it is that you choose to do in life. It's going to be difficult if you want to do it well. So choose something that you're happy to wake up to in the morning. you know Choose something that gives you a sense of purpose. And that's what keeps me going, I think.
00:19:07
Speaker
And this is maybe a little bit off topic, but Cowboys ranching, it's definitely very romanticized. It's also a very violent history as well, or at least it's perceived, at least that, that was my perception of it too, like with pushing people off the land and all of that, especially for you coming from your background with studies in liberation theology, how has it been kind of reconciling these two parts of it?
00:19:32
Speaker
You know, that's probably the the most important question anybody's ever asked me. And that's something that I think about a lot, because what you say is so true, looking at the history of the West, of, you know, the encroachment of the European settlers, the displacement of indigenous people, the theft of land, all these different things, which is probably an entirely different podcast, but I mean, to answer your question in the best way that I can, I always feel called to try to empower those communities in any way that I can. And the truth of the matter is, is that cattle ranching, cattle in the West and the management of, cat I mean, just think about how much land is allocated for cattle for grazing in the West, right? And when we look at the history and the current condition of a lot of these landscapes,
00:20:24
Speaker
that you know are not in the best shape and could use a different type of management to help to restore some of the damage that's been done. The way that I see it is what are the tools that are on the land now that could be used to help regenerate, to reverse, to repair, to restore. And when I started learning about holistic management and that type of management grazing management, I was really fascinated because I didn't know previously that cattle could be used in such a way.
00:20:52
Speaker
you know, to benefit landscapes. I didn't know, I mean, I understood it understood intuitively, but how important grazing animals when properly managed are for landscapes. So this is, I guess, the way that I see myself contributing to some of that, some of those new movements in a way, I guess.
00:21:09
Speaker
But to be honest with you, Emma, like the question that you ask, I struggle with, I go back and forth with it. like Because my ancestry, I have Black and Native ancestry, and you know a lot of my ancestors have been people who have not benefited from the system as a way that it is.
00:21:24
Speaker
and looking at the expansion of the West and and all these different things. Sometimes I'm thinking, well, am I contributing to part of the problem or am I helping to be a part of the solution? And I like to think the latter, but it's ah it's a it's a difficult thing because at the end of the day, the industry is still the way that it is and the history is still the way that it is. And I think each person, none of us are immune.
00:21:46
Speaker
from being a part of systems and structures that do harm. you know And I think it's up to each individual person to see what role they are playing in it and how they can do things differently or how to try to, it might sound naive, but change the system from within. And I know that's not always possible, but for me, what I care about is the healing and restoration of land.
00:22:05
Speaker
healing and restoration of people in human communities. Those two things are some of my greatest passions in life. And I think that both of them ah don't stand alone and rely upon each other because I think when land heals,
00:22:19
Speaker
communities are healed and vice versa because we depend upon the land for life. And being from the Midwest and being in the West, somebody could say, well, you're not from that place. Like what does that have to do with you? But for me, it's about finding an inroad and then knowing that this work and these skills will build upon the next thing and build upon the next thing. And then, you know, one day down the line, I have no idea how things are going to look, but I know that this is where I'm supposed to be right now. So yeah, that's the best way that I can answer that. But that's a good question. And it's something that I think about a lot.
00:22:47
Speaker
Yeah. You mentioned the role of of this in healing communities as well. Could you talk a little bit more about that? What's happened to ranching over the last 30 years affect communities that you're in and and also what's your hope for what it could look like through your work and other other people that are doing work like you are? Yeah.
00:23:07
Speaker
And a lot of the places that I have worked and lived used to be vibrant, thriving communities. And a lot of them were agricultural communities that depended upon the land for life. And you know for a variety of different reasons, whether that's you know land prices or you know how the market works, people have not been able to make things work. And then people sell the land off. And then big developers come in. They buy the land. They can modify it. you know They have no connection to it. And then you know it's this downward cycle that not only is happening in the West, but happens everywhere.
00:23:35
Speaker
And I think getting people to understand the importance of being connected to their food sources and sourcing food locally, which makes them aware of, OK, what land is around me? Who are the people who are around me who are growing this food? And how do I build a relationship with them? And it forces people to get out of themselves outside of themselves, outside of their comfort zones, but also seeing how important food is for health and wellness and connection to land. And I think by getting more involved in agriculture, whether that's just buying from people locally,
00:24:03
Speaker
I'm not saying everybody has to be a farmer or rancher, but opening that line of communication and engaging with the people who are doing the work on the ground, I think not only can that help everyday people physically by actually giving them food that has been raised and handled in a certain way, and it's going to nurse their own bodies and their own spirits in ah in a way that's better than, like say, store-bought food.
00:24:24
Speaker
But not only that, but they're able to actually interact with the land that that is growing and giving them their food. And I think it may inspire people to say, well, then how can I in my own personal life maybe try to reconnect? And like I said, not everybody's going to be a farmer or rancher, but I think people just need to be thinking about these things and realize how important they are because that's the start. And I think it's the it's ignorance and it's disconnection, which is one of our biggest problems. And that's not always the fault of the people who are disconnected and are suffering from that ignorance. I think that's by design and I think that one of the most powerful ways you can control the people is controlling their food sources and having them relying upon the system for food. If you are self-sufficient to a degree or able to source the products that you consume more locally without the need for this huge globalized network and system, I think that's empowering and that's freedom. And I think that that's what a lot of people crave. So yeah, I probably just answered your question in like five different ways, but
00:25:20
Speaker
if I didn't answer it at all. But yeah, I just think it's really important for people to try to reconnect and understand that it's not just about eating organic. like it's It's the whole holistic person and the whole holistic community aspect, which is going to be strengthened and empowered. Because it all goes back to what we eat and our own personal health. And if that's a mess, then everything else is going to be a mess. If that's an order and sound, I think everything else will fall into place. so Yeah, absolutely. And you talked about earlier, it seems like it's almost by design that people don't know where their food comes from. Can you talk a little bit about that? Well, I'll give you an example. The city of Detroit didn't have a grocery store until well until like the 2010s.
00:26:03
Speaker
I mean, especially when you go to urban or semi-urban areas that literally the only food in some places that you can access is fast food. There are no grocery stores. There are no health food stores. There's nothing. And you think that's an accident? Like, no, I think, I mean, even when you look on reservations out here in the West, I mean, which is very similar to an urban area back in the Midwest or back East. I mean, just think about the access to food, the food that's available, the resources that are available, the healthcare that's available.
00:26:32
Speaker
And it's not just Black and Indigenous communities. I think it's rural communities at large. I mean, I can't tell you the amount of places I've lived in work where I could barely find like a quality vegetable. And it's like, I'm over here looking after 500-headed cattle, and I can't find decent beef in the store that I shop in. you know It doesn't make sense. So I think it's something that affects rural American community rural communities, urban communities, Native communities. It's something that affects Americans at large, regardless of who you are or where you come from.
00:27:01
Speaker
And I think it comes down to access and the haves and the have nots. But like I said before, one of the most powerful ways that you can control the people is by controlling their health or the act things that they have access to. Because physical health is directly related to mental health and spiritual health and communal health. And if people are physically unhealthy, then everything else is going to fall by the wayside as well.
00:27:25
Speaker
It works very well. You have people that are eating shitty food who are sick. oh then are you know kind of stuck in their situation, struggling to pay their bills for their health care, struggling to feel good enough to be able to do anything proactive, eating shitty food, getting sicker. And I think that historically it kind of came from the same source. like A lot of the chemicals that were used during World War II were repurposed either for for agriculture or for our health care, basically, in like pharmaceutical drugs. So it's it's interesting that military, industrial,
00:28:02
Speaker
background too to a lot of modern ag and modern healthcare. care Yeah, I think it's all connected. Yeah, everything has is connected, everything else in a thread. And when you really start to understand how it all tied together and how it works, it's like, wow, we're all really just being fooled here. you know um But it didn't seem like that. And I don't think it has to remain that way. And that's the thing. like We can look at that system and say, well, what can I do? right But like I was always told, just start locally. like Just try.
00:28:32
Speaker
to, so whether that's, you know, food locally or working to help communities locally or whatever it may be. Cause we can't, if we try to take it on, you know, the entire country on or like entire, the entire system is too much, it's overwhelming. But I think just starting locally is the most important. And obviously, you know, one of the important components is getting people onto the land. And I mean, I'm sure you know this very well, but obviously the average age of a rancher is 65. You know, there's this open question of like, who's going to be stewarding you know, land and for the next generation. There's also like less and less cattle every year, which is something that I was surprised to learn about. Like there's even, I think since 2017, every year we're losing 20,000 ranchers and there was like 20% less cows just in the last 10 years. You obviously have decided to go into ranching despite all the challenges. What do you think it would take to get more people to be able to enter the space?
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's a good question and it's something that I think about a lot because like land access is definitely a problem for agricultural producers but land access is also an issue for people who aren't producers who just want to have access to land and especially back east there's not nearly as much public land as there is out here but you know I think for if we're talking about agricultural producers like programs that are designed and I know they exist but probably not as many as there should be, but programs that are designed to get beginner farmers and ranchers access to land in a way that is not economically impractical in a way where people can maybe, I mean, I know there's land trusts that are doing this type of work where people can get access to like say 99 to 100 year leases and in the clause of the lease,
00:30:15
Speaker
If they work it for a certain period of time, the lease will roll over to their descendants and they can't be kicked off the land. So there's all these different creative ways that people, producers, can get access to land. But just in general, I mean, when thinking about all the land that is available, other people who aren't producers also need to have that ability to reconnect. And some people may say, well, how do they do that? Is it through just visiting public land? Is it through hiking?
00:30:44
Speaker
Whatever it is, every person, it's going to be different. But I think people just have to prioritize just wanting to re reconnect and build that ah relationship. but for producers in in general, that's something that I worry about too, like how does a person get access? And yeah, yeah, you can lease, you can buy, I mean, if you're lucky enough to afford land, but I mean, for the for the vast majority of beginner farmers and ranchers affording land, especially out West in this kind of country, where you need thousands of acres to do what back East, you may only need a couple hundred acres to do.
00:31:15
Speaker
it's It's really impractical. And some friends and I, we've talked about just ideas of cooperative land management or land ownership and you know so trying to source different investors. And I think that there's possibilities, but people have to be creative and they have to willing be willing to, especially as the older generation ages out and the newer generation comes in, they have to be willing to say,
00:31:38
Speaker
I want to do this with other people and not just doing it by myself. Because as we see one person doing everything on their own that works for some people, but for a lot of people it's not practical. So what does collective land management and ah stewardship look like among a group of people who share a similar vision? I think about that a lot and I don't really know what what the answer to that is, but yeah, as we go and and move into this next phase,
00:32:03
Speaker
I really think people need to be creative and being willing to imagine new models and new structures. Yeah. I'm obviously looking at this from the outside. I'm not a producer myself, but it is um in a way, it seems like an exciting time with respect to that. Like when people, it's a time where people are needing to find a new story for what ranching would look like, like the traditional model of the kind of do it yourself on your land, pass it on to your, your sons and daughters. That model is like no longer panning out and it's exciting. I mean, I think a lot of the young,
00:32:37
Speaker
uh ranchers and farmers are talking about cooperative models and imagining collective ownership and fairer transitions. Yeah and I think it's more sustainable too because when it is collectively managed and shared I mean it shares the division of labor I mean, there's a lot of different things that are probably more attainable in that regard. And like you're saying, like just how many ranches, family ranches have issues with succession planning with kids, like not wanting to come back, not wanting to have anything to do with the ranch, just wanting to sell it off, and we're not wanting to really do the work. like Because it's it's a lot, like managing a ranch by yourself, it's impossible. It's so much that goes into it.
00:33:14
Speaker
And I think the old story was written when people had these like really large families and farms were ah a lot smaller as well. So I think there was a lot more neighbors and like community engagement, even if it was like, and from a more like family structure, like in, in all places harvest time was when all the neighbors came together and they would harvest together and then they would go help the next neighbor. So there was a much more collective structure, even if it came through the family and.
00:33:40
Speaker
that's kind of died out. And now you go out West and you just see like one farmer with maybe his wife, probably not even his kids, cause his kids can't even, they can't even afford to have the kids stay on when they're still farming. And it's, it's really desolate. Yeah. And a lot of people are struggling, like just struggling to make ends meet and just to survive, you know, and I've seen what you just described. I've seen that so many times and so many different people in places who have that same story.
00:34:07
Speaker
But we also, I think, to be open to these collective models, we have to move away from the idea of needing to possess everything. And yes, I do think ownership provides generational security and wealth and all the things to people knowing that I can't be kicked off this or, you know, this can't be swept from under me. And for, you know, especially looking at when you look at the history of sharecropping in the South and all these different things, I mean, especially for some of my family, like that's really important. But the truth of the matter is, is that the land needs to be cared for and managed regardless of who owns it.
00:34:42
Speaker
But how can we get a larger population of young producers who share the similar vision and goals on the land, but not just on the land, but how do you keep them on the land? Because new agrarian program is great. It gets people their start. They start farming. They start ranching. But a lot of times, two, three years down the road, a lot of those people don't stay in it.
00:35:01
Speaker
because of these very issues that we're talking about. you know it's It's one thing to get somebody in the door, but how do you get to keep people in the work, in the vocation, in the profession? And I think that that requires a lot more creativity and resources to be available. Yeah, absolutely. To finish this off, ah you've been doing this for a few years. You have all these great ideas about starting your own company and also more collective models for ranching. What does the more beautiful world you hope to see look like?
00:35:31
Speaker
the world that I like to see. There's a lot of different aspects to that. I mean, it's a world where people are living closer to the land and are more connected, eating healthy, locally raised food, whether that's food they grew or food they didn't grow up, where people prioritize living in communities again. And we move away from this really just individualistic way of moving through the world, recognizing that Our well-being and our ability to thrive depends on the people around us, the communities around us, where people try to come back to that type of social ethic. It's part of that. I mean, it's a it's a world where trillions of dollars are not wasted on senseless wars that kill people abroad and at home. It's a world where, you know, an ethic of love versus conquest instead of conquest is something that reigns supreme. You know, I mean, I think
00:36:18
Speaker
When I think about that world, it really becomes not just what does the world look like agriculturally, but also spiritually as well and morally. And there's a lot of different aspects to that world. You know, i I tend to think about that a lot, but I guess in my niche, this little niche that I'm trying to create for myself, I'm trying to do the best that I can where I sit and where I stand and try to just help life to thrive and not to destroy it. You know what I mean? So yeah, that's how I'll answer that one.
00:36:47
Speaker
I like it. Well, thank you so much, Kalau, for talking with me today and sharing your story, which is really incredible. And I think you make it sound pretty effortless, even though I'm sure it is extremely challenging. Yeah, really, thank you so much for sharing and hopefully giving hope to other people that want to come into ranching and farming. It's really incredible. Yeah, most definitely. Thanks for reaching out and for inviting me on. You know, it's been really great. Appreciate it.
00:37:18
Speaker
Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexander Miller, who also wrote our theme song. If you enjoyed this episode, please like subscribe and leave us a comment on your podcast app of choice. As a new podcast, it's crucial for helping us reach more people. You can visit agrarianfuturespod dot.com to join our email list for a heads up on upcoming episodes and bonus content.