Fish have long been one of the last wild foods, a source of nourishment that connects us to the powerful ecology of the planet’s waters. But as journalist and author Paul Greenberg [https://www.paulgreenberg.org/books/four-fish/] chronicles in his award-winning book Four Fish: The Future of the Last Wild Food, our relationship with the sea has dramatically changed over the past century. Once nearly all of the seafood we ate was wild; today, nearly half is farmed and the pressures on both wild and farmed systems are intensifying.

In this conversation, Paul doesn’t simply lament loss nor offer blind optimism. Instead, he helps us see where wild fisheries and aquaculture have faltered, where they remain strong, and how our choices today will shape the future of seafood and the oceans that feed us. Viewed through the lens of regenerative agriculture, his insights show that healthy waters and healthy land are part of the same story, and that ecological regeneration on farms must be paired with thoughtful stewardship of our rivers, estuaries, and oceans.

In this episode, we get into:

• What history teaches us about the human-ocean relationship and how it changed as we tamed the sea
• How modern fishing and seafood production mirror some of the same challenges in industrial agriculture
• Why some wild fisheries can still be models of careful management
• Where aquaculture offers real promise and where it deepens existing problems
• How ecological health, species diversity, and regional systems are essential for both land and sea
• What eating fish in ways that support long-term abundance actually looks like
• Why regenerative principles belong in discussions about oceans as much as soil

More about Paul:

Paul writes at the intersection of the environment and technology, seeking to help his readers find emotional and ecological balance with their planet. He is the author of seven books including the New York Times bestseller Four Fish: The Future of the Last Wild Food. His other books are The Climate Diet, Goodbye Phone, Hello World, The Omega Principle, American Catch, A Third Term and the novel, Leaving Katya.

Paul’s writing on oceans, climate change, health, technology, and the environment appears regularly in The New York Times and many other publications. He’s the recipient of a James Beard Award for Writing and Literature, a Pew Fellowship in Marine Conservation, a National Endowment for the Arts Literature Fellowship and many other grants and awards.

A frequent guest on national television and radio including Fresh Air with Terry Gross and the co-creator of the podcast Fish Talk, Paul also works in film, television and documentary. His PBS Frontline documentary The Fish on My Plate was among the most viewed Frontline films of the 2017 season and his TED Talk has reached over 1.5 million viewers to date. He has lectured widely at institutions around the world ranging from Harvard to Google to the United States Senate. A graduate in Russian Studies from Brown University, Paul speaks Russian and French. He currently teaches within New York University’s Animals Studies program and lives at Ground Zero in Manhattan where he maintains a family and a terrace garden and produces, to his knowledge, the only wine grown south of 14th Street.

Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexandre Miller, who also wrote our theme song. This episode was edited by Drew O’Doherty.

Eating Fish in the Age of Limits with Paul Greenberg

If you want to understand what it takes to build a healthier local food system and bring rural communities back to life, you talk to someone who’s actually done it. Bob Quinn has spent decades farming in Montana, rebuilding soil, creating local markets, and pushing back against the idea that small towns and small farms are destined to disappear.

Through his farm and the Quinn Institute [https://quinninstitute.org/], Bob is exploring what a healthier rural economy - and a healthier food system - could look like. That includes everything from improving soil health and growing better food to rethinking how we organize our communities, our businesses, and even our underlying values.

In this episode, we get into:
• Why rebuilding rural America starts with rebuilding soil
• How regenerative practices can revive both land and local economies
• What we’ve lost as rural communities hollow out
• The mission behind the Quinn Institute and why Bob created it
• Why scale isn’t the only measure of agricultural success
• How local markets, local relationships, and local identity shape rural futures
• The deeper cultural values we need to restore if regeneration is going to last

More about Bob and the Quinn Institute [https://quinninstitute.org/]:

Bob Quinn's roots run deep into the rich soil of Big Sandy, Montana, where he returned after earning a PhD in plant biochemistry from UC Davis to apply his scientific knowledge to the family farm. From his return in 1978, Bob embarked on a transformative journey that led him to convert his entire farm of over 3000 acres to a regenerative organic system in just three years, from 1986 to 1988. At the same time he pioneered Kamut International, a thriving business that turned an ancient grain into a global superfood synonymous with health and community.

Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexandre Miller, who also wrote our theme song. This episode was edited by Drew O’Doherty.

The Future of Food, Health, and Rural Life with Bob Quinn

If regenerative agriculture is about rebuilding the foundations of our food system, then soil is where that story starts.

Geologist and author David Montgomery [https://www.dig2grow.com/] has spent decades tracing how the health of our soil shapes everything else: the nutrition in our food, the resilience of our farms, and the long-term fate of entire civilizations. What he shows is both sobering and energizing. We have degraded our soils at an astonishing pace, yet we now understand enough about how they actually work to turn the tide.

In this conversation, David helps us zoom out. He connects the collapse of ancient societies to the vulnerabilities we see in modern industrial agriculture, and he lays out what farmers around the world are doing to rebuild soil faster than it erodes. If regeneration is the goal, soil biology is the map.

In this episode, we get into:
• How soil degradation has shaped the rise and fall of societies
• The real consequences of erosion, tillage, and synthetic nitrogen
• Why soil microbes are central to nutrient density and farm resilience
• What regenerative farmers are proving about soil recovery timelines
• Three core principles that can rebuild fertility at scale
• Why technology must complement, not replace, ecological understanding
• The policies and incentives needed to make soil health the baseline, not the exception

More about David:

David R. Montgomery is a MacArthur Fellow and professor of geomorphology at the University of Washington. He studies landscape evolution and the effects of geological processes on ecological systems and human societies. An author of award-winning popular-science books, he has been featured in documentary films, network and cable news, and on a wide variety of TV and radio programs. His books have been translated into ten languages.  He lives in Seattle with his wife, and co-author, Anne Biklé.  Their latest book What Your Food Ate: How to Heal Our Land and Reclaim Our Health was published summer 2022.  Connect with them at www.dig2grow.com [http://www.dig2grow.com/].

Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexandre Miller, who also wrote our theme song. This episode was edited by Drew O’Doherty.

Why Soil Is the Key to Regeneration with David Montgomery

Across the south, generations of Black farmers and business owners have faced losing not just their land, but their livelihoods - pushed out by discriminatory lending, land theft, and the consolidation of power. Yet from that struggle has grown something powerful: a movement rooted in cooperation, where farmers pool their resources, share their knowledge, and build wealth together instead of competing for survival.

That spirit of collective power is what drives the Federation of Southern Cooperatives [https://www.federation.coop/], where Terence Courtney works to support Black-owned farms and rural businesses through education, advocacy, and cooperative enterprise. The Federation’s model flips the extractive script of traditional capitalism, proving that shared ownership and community investment are sound economic strategies.

In this episode, we dive into:

 * The long history of Black cooperative movements in the South.
 * How cooperative models help farmers build wealth and autonomy in the face of systemic discrimination.
 * Why collective economics is key to sustaining rural communities.
 * The Federation’s approach to balancing profitability with community values.
 * How policy and history continue to shape access to land and opportunity.
 * What true self-determination looks like in agriculture.

More about Terence and the Federation of Southern Cooperatives [https://www.federation.coop/]:

Terence Courtney began organizing with the Service Employees International Union to improve economic conditions for working people. He led union campaigns and later became the union’s statewide representative in Georgia. He’s co-founded and led coalitions such as Atlanta Jobs with Justice and a community group focused on the public sector called the Atlanta Public Sector Alliance.

Expanding from a city to a regional focus, Terence organized US born and foreign born (immigrants) of African descent to educate and raise consciousness about immigrant rights and mass incarceration from a Black Diasporic perspective for the Black Alliance for Just Immigration. He co-developed the Organization for Human Rights and Democracy and served as the Director of Organizing overseeing campaigns against school privatization, as well as its spin off project: Cooperative Atlanta. Currently Terence serves as the Director of Cooperative Development & Strategic Initiatives for theFFederation of Southern Cooperatives [https://www.federation.coop/]

Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexandre Miller, who also wrote our theme song. This episode was edited by Drew O’Doherty.

Building Collective Power in the Rural South with Terence Courtney

What happens when you leave behind a career in food journalism to take over a family farm in Iowa? For Beth Hoffman, it meant putting theory into practice - and learning firsthand just how difficult it is to make small and mid-sized farming work in today’s economy.

In her book Bet the Farm [https://bookshop.org/p/books/bet-the-farm-the-dollars-and-sense-of-growing-food-in-america-beth-hoffman/91116e97c0557857?ean=9781642831597&next=t&next=t] and in her daily life raising grass-finished cattle and organic crops, Beth confronts the financial and cultural realities most farmers face: land that’s too expensive for beginners, markets that reward consolidation over stewardship, and infrastructure built for scale instead of community. Yet her story is also one of possibility -o f finding ways to align values with viability and imagining what a more just and sustainable food system could look like.

In this episode, we dive into:

 * Beth’s journey from food journalist to first-generation farmer in Iowa
 * The hidden costs of farming and why most operations run on razor-thin margins
 * The double bind of land access, generational transfer, and skyrocketing prices
 * Why infrastructure like slaughterhouses and markets is as important as the land itself
 * The trade-offs between environmental ideals and financial realities on the ground
 * How gender and cultural narratives shape who is seen as a “real farmer”
 * What a truly sustainable and just farming system would require

More about Beth [https://www.farmbetiowa.com/]:

Beth Hoffman began her food writing career focused on culture, producing a food series on KUER in Salt Lake City and receiving a grant to document the stories of immigrant women as they cooked in their homes (which became a radio series that aired on Weekend America). Now, twenty-five years into writing and producing work on food and agriculture, Beth has freelanced for radio and print publications (NPR, The World, The Guardian, Forbes and many more) and was an Associate Professor at the University of San Francisco in Media Studies. But perhaps most importantly, she and her husband John moved from the big city to rural Iowa to take over his family's 530-acre farm. She wrote a book called Bet the Farm: The Dollars and Sense of Growing Food in America, using their experiences to illustrate how the American food system works. The couple raises grass-fed and finished beef, pastured goats and some vegetables and offer cooking and writing classes on the farm.

Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexandre Miller, who also wrote our theme song. This episode was edited by Drew O’Doherty.

Farming Against the Odds with Beth Hoffman

Before industrial dredging, clear-cutting, and destructive fishing practices, our rivers and oceans were full of wood. Fallen trees, driftwood, and branches created underwater forests where fish and countless other creatures could thrive. That wood provided shelter, food, and the foundation for entire aquatic ecosystems. Today, much of it is gone, and so are the fish.

Marine restoration expert Jon Dickson noticed this loss while working along Europe’s coasts and asked a deceptively simple question: if we remove the wood, do we also remove the fish? His answer is the “tree reef,” an artificial reef made from pear trees and other natural materials that replaces destroyed habitat. It is a low-tech, high-impact idea with the potential to revive aquatic life far beyond local waters, and it is deeply connected to the broader regenerative agriculture movement on land and at sea.

In this episode, we dive into:

 * The forgotten role of wood in rivers, estuaries, and oceans and why it matters for fish
 * How dredging and “cleaning” waterways destroyed essential aquatic habitats
 * Why restoring fish populations is critical for global ecological balance, including land-based food systems
 * The limitations of many well-meaning marine restoration efforts and how tree reefs succeed where others fail
 * The design, construction, and surprising results of tree reefs
 * How low-cost, replicable solutions could transform restoration at scale
 * Why thinking like an ecosystem is the key to regeneration everywhere

If you have ever wondered how oceans and rivers fit into the future of regenerative food systems, Jon’s work might change the way you see both land and sea.

More about Jon and Marine Trees [https://www.marinetrees.com/]:

Jon grew up in British Columbia, Canada, where after university, he worked as a forest fire fighter. In the off season, he worked as a polar guide and boat driver in Antarctica, Greenland, and Northern Canada. These seasonal jobs and education were interspersed by backpacking trips; his favourite countries (so far) are Iceland, Mongolia, Uganda, Slovenia, and with a vote for the home team, Canada. Since moving to the Netherlands to work on a PhD, he noticed a distinct lack of driftwood in Europe and decided to see if fish were missing habitat due to lack of wood - and so invented tree-reefs, an artificial reef made of trees to replace destroyed habitat.

Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexandre Miller, who also wrote our theme song. This episode was edited by Drew O’Doherty.

Restoring the Underwater Forests with Jon Dickson

Years before regenerative ag and grass-fed beef hit the spotlight, Will Harris was figuring it out on his own land.

At White Oak Pastures in Bluffton, Georgia, Will spent the last few decades unwinding everything industrial agriculture taught him: the chemicals, the confinement, the commodity mindset. In its place, he’s built a vertically integrated, closed-loop system that honors the land, the animals, the people who work it, and the rural town that depends on it.

White Oak Pastures is now one of the shining lights of what the future of agriculture can look like. If you’re thinking about what it takes to make regenerative ag not just real but resilient, you'll have something to learn from Will Harris.

In this episode, we get into:

 * The real costs of industrial efficiency and what it takes to opt out.
 * Why Will restructured every aspect of his farm—from soil health to slaughter.
 * How White Oak Pastures uses animal impact to build biology, not extract from it.
 * The economics of rebuilding a rural economy around regenerative principles.
 * Will’s take on corporate greenwashing, fake meat, and the soul of agriculture.
 * And the core belief that drives it all: regeneration is about relationships, not inputs.

More about Will and White Oak Pastures [https://whiteoakpastures.com/]:

Will Harris is a fourth-generation cattleman, who tends the same land that his great-grandfather settled in 1866. Born and raised at White Oak Pastures, Will left home to attend the University of Georgia's School of Agriculture, where he was trained in the industrial farming methods that had taken hold after World War II. Will graduated in 1976 and returned to Bluffton, where he and his father continued to raise cattle using pesticides, herbicides, hormones, and antibiotics. They also fed their herd a high-carbohydrate diet of corn and soy.

In the mid-1990s, Will became disenchanted with the excesses of these industrialized methods. They had created a monoculture for their cattle, and, as Will says, "nature abhors a monoculture." In 1995, Will made the audacious decision to return to the farming methods his great-grandfather had used 130 years before.

Since Will has successfully implemented these changes, he has been recognized all over the world as a leader in humane animal husbandry and environmental sustainability. Will is the immediate past President of the Board of Directors of Georgia Organics. He is the Beef Director of the American Grassfed Association and was selected 2011 Business Person of the year for Georgia by the Small Business Administration.

Will lives in his family home on the property with his wife Yvonne. He is the proud father of three daughters, Jessi, Jenni, and Jodi. His favorite place in the world to be is out in pastures, where he likes to have a big coffee at sunrise and a 750ml glass of wine at sunset.

Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexandre Miller, who also wrote our theme song. This episode was edited by Drew O’Doherty.

How to Leave the Industrial System Behind with Will Harris

We all need land to eat, but more and more, farmland has become a financial asset instead of a source of food, livelihood, and community. And when agriculture becomes just another investment, we risk losing something essential, not just for farmers, but for the health, resilience, and future of our entire society.

Journalist and researcher Sarah Mock joins us to unpack the deep consequences of treating land like a commodity - from pricing out new farmers, to consolidating ownership, to weakening the rural communities that once thrived around agriculture.

We explore the forgotten history of agrarian populism, the modern land trap that affects both aging landowners and aspiring farmers, and why the future of food depends on rethinking ownership - not just optimizing yields.

In this episode, we dive into:

 * Why land "defies capitalism" - and what that means for our food system.
 * The double bind of retiring farmers and new farmers locked out by land prices.
 * How the disappearance of agrarian populism has shaped today’s agriculture policy.
 * The myth of the silver-bullet tech fix for food and farming.
 * Real alternatives to land as a speculative commodity.
 * And what it would take to make small and mid-size farming viable again.

More about Sarah [https://sarahkmock.com/]:

Sarah Mock is a food and agriculture writer, researcher, and podcaster. She grew up on a small farm in Wyoming, and since then has spent more than a decade working on everything from farm production, strategy, and marketing to ag history and economics to food logistics, supply chains, and climate impact. She’s worked in and around agriculture across the country and around the globe, with non-profits, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Silicon Valley companies, the national news media, and directly with farms. Her work has culminated in a number of award-winning projects, including her best-selling book Farm (and Other F Words) [https://bookshop.org/books/farm-and-other-f-words-the-rise-and-fall-of-the-small-family-farm] and her podcast series The Only Thing That Lasts [https://ambrook.com/research/podcast/the-only-thing-that-lasts], which explores the past, problems, and possibilities of American farmland. Learn more at https://sarahkmock.com/.

Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexandre Miller, who also wrote our theme song. This episode was edited by Drew O’Doherty.

Why Farmland Shouldn’t Be a Commodity with Sarah Mock

Are fewer, bigger farms putting our entire food system at risk?

That’s the warning at the heart of Land Rich, Cash Poor [https://www.brian-reisinger.com/], the latest book by Brian Reisinger. In it, he explores the forces—technological, political, and economic—that have hollowed out rural America and made it harder than ever to keep a family farm alive. Drawing from his own multigenerational farming roots in Wisconsin, Brian traces how policy choices and market consolidation have left farmers squeezed—sometimes literally sitting on millions of dollars of land they can’t afford to keep.

In this episode, we dive into:

 * Why the U.S. has lost over 70% of its farms in the past century—and what that’s done to rural communities.
 * The role of technology and policy in fueling unnecessary consolidation.
 * How farm crises, past and present, continue to push out small and mid-sized producers.
 * The rise of land as an investment asset—and what that means for food producers.
 * The growing divide between those who own the land and those who work it.
 * Why America’s tradition of small landowners is worth fighting for.
 * What scale-neutral technology and smarter R&D could do to level the playing field.
 * How we create real economic opportunity for a new generation of small farms.

More about Brian [https://www.brian-reisinger.com/]:

Brian Reisinger is an award-winning writer and rural policy expert who grew up on a family farm in Sauk County, Wisconsin. Reisinger worked with his father from the time he could walk, before entering the worlds of business journalism and public policy, then going on to work as a columnist and consultant. He lives to tell the hidden stories of rural America and has been published by USA Today, Newsweek, Yahoo News, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, PBS/Wisconsin Public Radio’s “Wisconsin Life,” The Daily Yonder, RealClearPolitics, The Hill, and elsewhere. He’s given a TEDx talk on risks to our food supply, and appeared on C-SPAN’s “Washington Journal,” CNN, public radio, farm radio, and other outlets across the political spectrum. Reisinger’s writing has won awards from the National Society of Newspaper Columnists, first place in the Seven Hills Literary Contest, a Solas Award, and more. He lives with his wife and daughter, and helps lead Midwestern-based Platform Communications, splitting time between northern California and the family farm in Wisconsin. Land Rich, Cash Poor is his first book.

Find him on X: @BrianJReisinger

Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexandre Miller, who also wrote our theme song. This episode was edited by Drew O’Doherty.

Losing 10,000 Farms a Year — And How to Reverse It with Brian Reisinger

What do we lose when our food comes from nowhere in particular?

For Cole Mannix, that question is at the heart of his work. He’s part of Old Salt Co-op [https://www.oldsaltco-op.com/?srsltid=AfmBOoraYO3_5wSO3lmz7D4i1d4ryGJBF0q9MHKQJAvEvhIV4q1eJ50C\], a group of ranchers outside Helena, Montana working to unseat Big Beef—not with billion-dollar backing or slick marketing, but with community, collaboration, and a commitment to place.

In today’s episode, we talk about what it means to break out of the commodity system, the power of cooperation in an industry dominated by consolidation, and how reconnecting food production to place might just be the key to restoring rural and small town life.

This is a story about beef—but really, it’s about belonging.

In this episode, we dive into:

 * How Old Salt Co-op is using a cooperative model to rebuild local meat economies.
 * Why the beef you buy at the store often has no traceable connection to where—or how—it was raised.
 * What we lose when we prioritize cheap, consistent food over community and ecology.
 * The hidden costs of a commodity system that favors efficiency over stewardship.
 * What it takes to rebuild local processing, distribution, and marketing from the ground up.
 * The creative mix of restaurants, festivals, and direct-to-consumer sales that make Old Salt’s model work.
 * Why betting on local food systems might be the least risky path forward.

More about Cole and Old Salt Co-Op [https://www.oldsaltco-op.com/?srsltid=AfmBOoraYO3_5wSO3lmz7D4i1d4ryGJBF0q9MHKQJAvEvhIV4q1eJ50C]:

Cole is part of an extended family that has ranched together since 1882 near Helmville, MT.  He did an undergrad in biology, then another in philosophy at Carroll College, then a masters in theology at Boston College. From ‘12-’16 he worked for a valiant startup called Salt of the Earth Ranchers Cooperative. From ’17-’20 he worked for Western Landowners Alliance to advance policies and practices that sustain working lands, connected landscapes, and native species. As a co-founder of Old Salt Co-op, he is helping to build a regenerative economy for damn fine Montana meat. He was part of Helena’s 20 under 40 class of ''22 and in '23 was named Montana Ambassadors Entrepreneur of the Year. He and spouse Eileen Brennan live in Helena with two sons, Finn and Charlie.

Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexandre Miller, who also wrote our theme song. This episode was edited by Drew O’Doherty.

Breaking the Beef Monopoly with Cole Mannix of Old Salt Co-Op

Join hosts Emma Ractliffe and Austin Unruh as they explore what’s broken in our food system, and what it looks like to build something better.

Visit agrarianfuturespod.com [https://www.agrarianfuturespod.com/] to join our email list for a heads up on upcoming episodes and bonus content.

Agrarian Futures is produced by Alexandre Miller, who also wrote our theme song.

Instagram: @agrarianfuturespod [https://www.instagram.com/agrarianfuturespod/]

Twitter: @agrarianfutures [https://x.com/agrarianfutures?s=11&t=zpfBCgxXojsB0QAj0JDZDA]

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/103857304/

Agrarian Futures

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