Transcript
Speaker: Hello everybody, we are going to be talking about the film The Vegan Poultry Farmer, except this time we've actually watched the film before we're talking about it. I'm Anthony and for this episode of Vegan Talk I am also joined by Svenna and Shane.
Speaker: I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brrr! Brody! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
Speaker: Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? True education. younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems of thinking.
Speaker: What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy gold, maybe. Any form of social injustice.
Speaker: As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
Speaker: cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hello everyone, my name is Svenna and welcome to this podcast, Vegan Talk, and thank you for being here. Hey everyone, this is Shane and if you're new, this is our Vegan Talk podcast. And in this podcast, we discuss philosophical and moral issues related to veganism and animal rights.
Speaker: We do movie reviews, mailbag episodes, and so on. And unlike our Vegan Week episodes, which are about the current news of the day, Vegan Talk episodes are evergreen and previous episodes are available in your Vegan Week podcast feed.
Speaker: And you can listen to them whenever you want. Indeed. Lucky old you. Lucky old you. So we are going to be talking about the film, The Vegan Poultry Farmer. You probably haven't watched it. It's just at the stage now where it's being aired in cinemas generally in the Netherlands, which is where the film was produced. But I think there are a few other more international screenings. But at the time that we're recording this, at the start of July, it's not something that you can stream off the internet or what have you. We first came across this film when we were talking on one of our podcasts about a topic. Now, Shane, you've got a very good memory, and Svenna, you were the person that emailed in. So I'm wondering, can you either of you remember what prompted...
Speaker: our conversation. Svenny, you were comparing this to something else, weren't you? Yes, indeed. There was this episode called Vegan plus Bacon. And you discussed indeed whether it's possible to call yourself a vegan, even if you are sometimes having this cheat day where you would eat bacon. And um it was a metaphor for all these kinds of exceptions made to veganism in general.
Speaker: And then I realized that there was this Dutch documentary film called the vegan poultry farmer, which in itself is of course this paradox, because if you are a poultry farmer, you are not a vegan by definition, I would say. So that was intriguing to me um and reminded me, yeah maybe you have seen the film, maybe you haven't seen the film, let's reach out to the podcast and see yeah what you think of it.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. See, let's see what happens when you get in touch. Stuff happens. um So, yeah, we we then tried to check the film out. And I believe, Shane, myself, you and Julie, yeah we looked it up as much as we could. But the best we could find was maybe like a two minute trailer, something like that. And there's a website, the vegan poultry farmer dot com. So we did as much research as we could, but we couldn't find out a huge amount. That's that's fair to say, isn't it? Yeah, we kind of speculated on what we thought it was about and we were wrong.
Speaker: Yeah, well, well, we'll get into that. So, Svenna heard ah the response to to that episode and we we spoke about it as much as we could and got in touch with the filmmaker saying, look, there are these people who are are interested in in watching the film. Would it be possible to to get them a ah full English version? And lo and behold, Lotta, who is one of the folks who's um working to promote the film and share it and get it out more widely, very kindly has given us access to an English version of the film, which we have now watched. Svenna, can I ask, have you seen the fully Dutch version before or not?
Speaker: Yes, I went to one of the screenings in the Netherlands. So I've seen the Dutch version, but it was already a few months ago. So for this podcast recording, I've also rewatched the English version again.
Speaker: Sure. Great. And I mean, there were bits where the the main protagonist, ah I'll call him rude in my ah english English accent, will hear Sven's more authentic pronunciation. But when he's talking and other Dutch speakers are talking, we've got English subtitles. But in the English version, there's, well, I'm assuming it's the English version only. There's like ah an English, a native English speaker narrator. I'm guessing that might not be the case in the Dutch version.
Speaker: Yes, that's correct. there It's a Dutch narrator, but I think the content of the film is comparable. yeah Yeah, absolutely. So listeners, appreciate most of you are not at the moment going to have access to the full film. You can still nonetheless go on the website, theveganpoultryfarmer.com, which talks about the documentary. So in their own words, they say, ah Renowned photographer and filmmaker Kadir von Luhusen follows Rude Sanders, a poultry farmer from the Dutch province of Limburg.
Speaker: After the bankruptcy of his large-scale poultry operations, Rude reinvented himself with a more sustainable and animal-friendly poultry farm Kipster. The innovative concept has garnered international attention and now stands on the brink of global expansion. Yet,
Speaker: As the business thrives, Rude increasingly questions the very foundation of animal farming. He now avoids meat, dairy and eggs in his own diet as much as possible. In this movie, he sets out to find out, can we do without animals in our global food system. So that's the synopsis.
Speaker: Let's go round each of us then and just give our ah general thoughts on the film. And if we can maybe highlight some some key touch points, because it's it's between 50 and 60 minutes long, I think off the top of my head, isn't it? And there's there's different places, like they go to literally different places, different parts of the world, there's different moments in the film, I think, where they're focusing on different things. Svenne, do you want to kick the ball off and and give us your general feelings about the film and any any bits that particularly stood out for you? Yeah, so I think the the central question of this film is whether creating a more animal-friendly farm can be considered a good thing. And this is also the question that Ruth himself struggles with throughout the film. So He's reflecting on his own practice. He is talking to different experts with different fields of expertise like animal welfare, but also environmental issues and knowledge on food production systems.
Speaker: And while he's having all these conversations with these experts, you see that he's more and more getting in doubt whether his farm with improved living conditions for the chickens is actually a good thing or not.
Speaker: And- I mean, did can I butt in there and ask, did did you feel that genuine doubt from him? Because I think we've spoken on the podcast before about ah things like cowspiracy, see-spiracy, films like that where you're presented with a protagonist that's going on a journey but when they have these moments of doubt it doesn't feel authentic it feels quite staged but I i really felt like Ruud was genuinely going through this was was that your feeling?
Speaker: Yes and I think what I noticed when watching the film is Ruud is this likable person you you feel this connection with him he's funny sometimes throughout the film and he's asking the good questions and He's critical of himself as well. But then if we zoom out, this is my impression from the film, but I also research what is going on in Kipster and still the living conditions of these chickens are not good, right? So there's still these hands that are breaking their bones and Kipster admit that even on their own website, but I don't see a real policy on what they're now actually doing and what kind of measures are being taken to avoid this. And Since actually the beginning of July in 2026 this year, Ruth is no longer the CEO of Kipster, but he's still involved in Kipster as an ambassador and the mission of Kipster remains the same. So they're trying to expand globally or at least internationally.
Speaker: So I would have expected after filming this documentary and after gaining all these insights from these experts that actually a real vegan life is also a possibility. And that even though the living conditions of these chickens are better than in a regular farm, it's still not good enough.
Speaker: And then I'm surprised to find out actually that Kipster is still going in the same direction. Yeah, yeah. It's it's a ah real dilemma, isn't it? And he he poses that, I think, quite early on. And I will probably be paraphrasing poorly here, but I think he says something like, if I just, as a vegan, step away from this trade, step away from this industry,
Speaker: People in the industry will say, oh great, we didn't want him involved anyway as as a vegan. Let's get someone else doing it. Like, actually, what is it doing to step away from it? Even though probably most of us listening to this podcast, most of us who call ourselves vegan would say, well, I couldn't do that. I couldn't be in charge of a poultry farm.
Speaker: So we'd want to step away. Like, what does that actually do? for the animals. it's It's a real central dilemma and one that don't actually think gets answered by the film. And I ah quite like that actually. I think one of the pros for the film, I think for me,
Speaker: is I don't think there's a conclusion. And it's like that won't sit well with many folk in an audience. I think many folk in an audience will want an answer. But some things in life, the the answer doesn't come straight away, does it? No, no.
Speaker: And you see that he's also still struggling himself because indeed he says, well, if I stop this business, we only keep the traditional chicken farms and those are worse. So therefore it's good that I continue with my own farming paradigm philosophy. But also he admits that if people are eating his eggs, which are then the better eggs, he hasn't achieved anything if they are keep eating the same amount of eggs. So he also has this second goal that's parallel to it, that people should eat less eggs or fewer eggs in total, because otherwise there's no really a point in having this farm.
Speaker: He says he admits But I don't see that effort as much and that he tries to convince others to be vegan. But maybe it is because of his likability that in the end he will achieve that goal. I don't know. But um yeah it's not so explicit in what I see in the other communications of Gipster. Yes. Yeah. That corporate message is is still a corporate message. And i I guess it's not really the model of capitalism, is it, to say,
Speaker: We want you to buy our product, but over time, we'd like you to buy less of our product. Not not really how that game works. Shane, we we we've had the great pleasure of reviewing several films together. I found it pleasurable anyway. What did you think of this film? Oh, I thought it was really well done. And I'm glad that you mentioned the Kip Anderson movies, you know, Cowspiracy, What the Health, because it also reminded me of those films as well. Because he was the rude, rude, was going around asking lot of questions, discovering new information. But the difference I felt, well, in addition to him seeming like to genuinely be changed by what he was learning, unlike those films, I also learned things.
Speaker: Because in those films, I was like, yeah, I pretty much knew all of this. and But I feel like vegans could learn something from watching this film. One piece of new information was about how he went to Africa and he learned, I think it was Uganda, and he learned about how human excrement could be used as fertilizer.
Speaker: you know i did I had no idea there were people doing that. So that was something that I thought was really interesting. Also... um One thing that really bothered me in the film um as far as the Kipster method, well, a lot of things bothered me, but how they were, he was acting like it was such a great innovation to feed the hens leftover food waste, which was basically things like waffles and muffins and pancakes. So it was all just processed,
Speaker: carbohydrates and sugar. And I thought that is not anywhere near what chickens should be eating. It cannot possibly be good for them. I mean, guess they're only going to live two years anyway, but still, mean, that's just, I can't imagine they feel good eating that kind of diet. So that, that bothered me a lot. There's a lot of kids that I work with that if they saw that sort of mountain of stroopwafel and these donuts and things like this, they'd be like, oh my God, let me at it, let me at it. That looks amazing. But yeah, you're kind of looking at that going, oh my God, like these hens are going to be like off their faces.
Speaker: it's just or just ah Or just refined corn syrup. But i'm I mean, is that any better than what... like in terms of nutritional profile, that any other chicken in animal agriculture is going to eat? I don't know. I'd be very interested to find out. i would also not know. But I think the reason behind it, like for Ruth, was that there would be less ah food waste.
Speaker: So in that sense, this chicken industry has fewer resources compared to the traditional food. chicken industry. But then there was also this expert who said, well, you don't need a chicken industry at all, right? If we're talking about producing food efficiently, we should go plant-based anyway. So I think that was also one of a key learning moments for Ruth. Maybe you should become the real vegan. yeah you felt like there were so many points in this film where Ruth could have gone a different direction. I mean, he even talks at length about how his family owned chickens farming, And they went bankrupt when he took it over. At some point, it went bankrupt. And then I just thought, OK, well, if you were so concerned about animal welfare, then that was the perfect opportunity for you to take a left turn and do something else. But no, he went back into chicken farming, even though he was seemingly concerned about the way it was being done. I i don't know. i i i get you. i i do get what you're saying, Shane. And like I think, yeah, who knows if we were transplanted into someone else's life, you know the decisions we we make and what have you could could differ or could be the same as other people. But i an answer I still haven't got to that that question that he poses early on is like, well, if there's still demand for these products,
Speaker: who's going to be behind the wheel, if if you like, ah of these industries, you know, and and yeah, a slightly less rubbish poultry industry is still a poultry industry, is still commodifying animals. And in a sense, is there not an argument that, like from an animal rights and from a vegan movement point of view, we want the least rubbish people in charge of these industries, whilst they're Hopefully we and others are trying to persuade others to bypass that industry altogether, but kind of both things need to happen at the same time.
Speaker: Do they, or do they not? Do we just need to just turn our back and just say, look, it's going to be rubbish in the poultry industry for chickens until we persuade people not to use it at all. It's just going to be rubbish.
Speaker: So that sucks. I don't know. Yeah, this is a central dilemma of the film. And I think indeed in a short term, we would prefer people to have these acts under better life conditions. But I think we are treating now the fact that people are eating acts as and something that is inevitable also for the longer run. And I don't think that is inevitable. I think in the long run, we should strive for a more plant-based society.
Speaker: And if we focus our efforts and resources on these more incremental changes within the system, rather than changing the system itself, I think we are just reinforcing and prolonging the system that produces the animal harm in the first place. And i could never support that, i think. And it was also one of the experts in the film who compared it to a guillotine syndrome, like,
Speaker: Having a guillotine would then be seen as something more humane because it's less painful. But in the end, you're still killing people, right? And it's a greenwash for the entire industry.
Speaker: And also from a consumer perspective, we are all very much into this topic and we read everything about the life conditions of the chickens in these industries. But as a consumer, I can imagine if you're not so well informed and you're buying these Gipster eggs, you feel like you're doing a good thing, right?
Speaker: And you haven't read on the website that also these hens are breaking their bones. And also that these chickens are living in a farm with 24,000 other chickens at the same time, despite that they can also have different personalities, like the one expert said that they're also introverted chicken.
Speaker: That was the moment my heart broke, literally. I was like, oh, no, can you imagine being an introverted chicken into this shelter or barn with 24,000 other chickens? I mean, it's terrible. Yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, you've you've said this, Shane, but I think this movie does so many things. that many other vegan or animal rights films have not quite done as well. I don't think it's a perfect film and I don't think its message is is is perfect. You know, if if you said to me, there's one film you can show somebody to persuade them to be vegan or to change their behavior.
Speaker: I don't know whether it would be this film. However, but there's so many great points to it. I mean, George Monbiot, who you mentioned there, Svenna, that he spoke to, that that's the only person, the only talking head, if you like, that I've seen in another vegan or animal rights film. Everyone else was a new face and then and a new perspective to hear from. I really like the person who had the the the chicken and the hen sanctuary um there, just just the the directness. that she was like, Rude, you're a nice person, but you're doing horrible things. I was just like, bam, yeah, yeah, ja give it to. That was great. um and And like you mentioned, Shane, that the fact that we that we had hope in terms of you know regenerative compost from from human waste and things like that, there's an innovation I'd not heard of that just opens your mind to think like, oh gosh, there's different ways of doing this.
Speaker: But highly concentrated, highly processed ah fructose corn syrup aside, like the the fact, the idea of taking waste streams of food. I mean, for me, that was almost the most moving part of the film. There there is, we should say, there is very graphic footage of animals ah dead animals being cut apart and and things like that. You know, it it is it's a difficult watch at points. Probably doesn't amount to more than two minutes in total, but like it's, that's enough. But the, the footage of all this waste of people just, there's ah a bit where there is a worker unpackaging a completely untouched pack of like eight ring donuts and just chucking them in. I was just like, God, what what world is this that like we're we're living in and that we but we're saying like, yeah, that's fine, that's normal. um And there's a comment along the lines of, it seems like the worst thing that could happen in a shop
Speaker: is that that a customer could come in and not be able to buy what they want. And like that's such a powerful line. And then you see this huge pile. I mean, it just looked like a pile of mud to start with. And then it zooms in and you see it's these these waffles that are ah you know particularly popular in in Belgium and and the Netherlands, I think. But like it it's so zoomed out, it just looks like a pile of soil. And then you realize this pile of of just basically one type of snack is probably about 10 meters high. I don't have the answer, but like repurposing some of the horrendous wastefulness that capitalism produces and greed produces. Again, like poultry farming, we'd rather just reduce the waste that people create, wouldn't we?
Speaker: But in a world where people do create waste, let's find a way of of repurposing that. Probably not feed it to chickens, though, would wouldn't be my solution. But you see the line of reasoning, there's the short-term solutions. Absolutely. Yeah. yeah And and he's he's a clever guy, Ruud. And I think that's part of why I think ah, I kind of don't want you to be a chicken farmer. I want you to be working on those vegan fried eggs that you're saying aren't quite right. And I mean, they're square for one thing.
Speaker: Could we make them round? But like, I want him working on that rather than being the poultry farmer. Should we focus on the fact that it's called the vegan poultry farmer and that has I know it's just one word, but yeah like can we justify that? Can we justify the use of the word vegan? He's not vegan, even if... I mean, he's not vegan in two respects, as far as I can see. There's his diet that he says like he doesn't actually stick to a lot of the time. And then there's the fact that his trade is exploiting chickens for money.
Speaker: yeah Well, the the scene where theyre they are taking the hens that are spent or whatever and taking them to slaughter, and he's in the the processing facility, and he doesn't seem upset or moved. at I mean, I'm sure this is something he's seen many, many times, but to me, I was like, that's...
Speaker: sir I don't know. That just doesn't seem like a very vegan reaction just to be like, okay, well, we got to send these guys off to slaughter now. He said something that kind of intimates that it's not a nice thing that's going on.
Speaker: Oh, okay. Yeah, it's not nice. Yeah, but his his words, I mean, yeah, he could break down in tears. He could he could let he could let the feelings in or let them out, I should say.
Speaker: But I don't think he's, come I would say my interpretation of it was that he wasn't completely unmoved. I think his words did suggest that it was a difficult thing. Do we find out why it's done by night? Like it, it, they said it is, I know why it is because, um, that that's what they, that's what all of them do when they're taking the chickens to slaughter because, um, it's less stressful for the birds if it's nighttime. Cause that's usually when they're, you know, sleeping and, um, they use like the red lights because that doesn't disturb them as much. So it's just to keep the hens calmer and, and make the whole process less stressful on them. Yeah. Sorry to be cynical, is it to make the hens less stressed or is it that a stressed hen is harder to get in a box?
Speaker: i probably both, yeah. Yeah, I think probably the latter would be my it's cynical guess. But yeah, yeah I mean, what what could we call the film if it weren't the vegan poultry farmer? Because like, I really feel like it undermines, if if it if it wasn't for that word, I'd say this is a great film about someone who, a farmer who feels bad about the exploitation that he's part of, is wondering,
Speaker: Is there a better way to do it or should I leave the industry altogether? I think that's a great concept. But then the fact that he's saying he's vegan and we've got that as the title of the film, then it it starts to go like, oh, so what is veganism then?
Speaker: Like maybe a poultry farmer questions his occupation. I mean, that's a horrible title, but you know, but you know, an exploration of poultry farming or, you know, questioning poultry farming, something like that. Yeah, I think the title works in the sense that it's the reason we are talking about it now. So it's a good marketing, again, for the film as well. It's it's the paradox that made me intrigued ah and also reminded me when you talked about the and Vegan Plus Bacon episode.
Speaker: can we use the word vegan in this context? And we said, no, you can't. that also was the direct reason that I contacted you about this film. So it works. Yeah.
Speaker: Could we add a question mark at the end? Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. The vegan polder, if I'm a question mark. I liked when they put the title of the film on the screen, they put the poultry farmer and then they did like a little, don't know, like they, they inserted the word vegan, like almost as like an afterthought, you know, I thought that was appropriate way to do it.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we should just ask him ourselves, but like, why is he not vegan all the time? Like if he's actually moved by it, I don't know. I just didn't, I didn't get the impression that his family was saying, like, I know like, you know, none none of us are 100% vegan all the time, you know, whether accidentally or or otherwise. But I just, again, wasn't sure about why is that being included? Or is it just a complete warts and all film? And so the fact that he's, he occasionally is just like, I quite fancy an egg.
Speaker: but I felt i've felt some empathy for him, though, because his family seemed like they made fun of him for it. you know they yeah They talked openly about that. And I felt, I mean, I can relate to that. And I felt some empathy for him for that. you know And I don't know, maybe he's not doing the primary cooking and his wife sometimes making something and he's like, it's just easier to eat this than to argue about it. I don't know. I think he's also living in this rural area.
Speaker: He has then this gibster farming industry, but all the other farming industries are also around there. in that area and it's more conservative. It's not easy being vegan, I think, in those kind of areas. We should not forget that.
Speaker: But you always get this sort of double standards of Root across the film. Like on the one hand, he's saying, well, indeed, I acknowledge that this is not a good industry and it should stop in the long run.
Speaker: But still then Now he's expanding his concept internationally after he has learned from the experts that there's also plant-based alternatives. Why isn't he focusing his innovative ideas, his entrepreneurship on a plant-based alternative. Well, the answer to that is simple because it's profitable because it's about money in the end.
Speaker: Yeah. And also that's when he discussed that his parents also had a poultry farm, the more traditional one, and they went bankrupt. And only after that, the idea for Kipster came. And that made me also think it's not motivated by animal welfare concerns. It's also driven by economic gains and people who are willing to spend a little bit more money on their eggs if they feel it has this greenwashing label that it's being produced in an ethical way. And he is just taking that as his marketing, I think, I don't know, makes me feel uneasy a little bit because in some parts of the film, I'm really convinced by his good intentions. And then in other scenes, I'm like, no, no, this is just commercial. And you're just doing this to have a better business. I don't know.
Speaker: Antony, I think if you're talking about who's the audience for this film, I think this would be a great film for vegans to watch because it really it really gets into that you know abolition versus welfare argument. And the answers, and you know as we all know, the answers to that aren't simple. And you can see Rud's side, you can see the vegan side. I just think it's something that really makes vegans think and examine our ideas. um And as far as the killing of the animals, I did find that I could tell that it was coming and I could like cover my eyes, you know, or not look at that part of the screen and just like look at the, ah you know, the captions or whatever. So that can't, you can't kind of not look at that if that's a consideration. Yeah, I i thought that just though there was footage of stuff that I've not really seen before, just in terms of processing is such a horrific word when talking about the bodies of living sentient beings. but
Speaker: What did you think about the chickens that were already dead? They were going by on the conveyor belt and they were reaching in and taking out the eggs out of the dead bodies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know why that disturbed me so much, but I was like, wow, even when they're dead, they're still being.
Speaker: I just thought that was horrible. Yeah, that was awful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I i mean, i do, I agree with you, Shane, that I think this would be a great film for vegans. i've I've not seen every, I've not seen every vegan and animal rights film, but I've seen a fair few and I learned a lot from this and it it posed questions and dilemmas and I thought was done in a different way. So I'd say go for that because the more information we have to arm our advocacy, the better.
Speaker: But actually i wouldn't have too many hesitations before showing this to somebody who's not vegan, really. like i just think the word vegan, I just have to say beforehand, they use the word vegan in this film in a way that I'm not completely on board with, but I'm willing to let that go. i wouldn't focus on it too much. Let's just focus on the interesting journey of this farmer who's who's been born into this industry. He's been born into it several generations.
Speaker: Now he's questioning it, but he's not fully stepping away from it. So, you know, it's an interesting dilemma because actually a lot of people will be having these dilemmas and they won't want to tell us about it, especially as vegans. We're the last people they want to tell about it. The people in the world who are consuming animal products who are having these dilemmas.
Speaker: We will be the last to hear about it, I think. we'll We'll hear about it from them when they're ready to make a change because they'll see that we're people that could help them. But until they're sure, i've I'm just thinking about some of the people that I know that have ended up becoming vegetarian or vegan. I've only heard about it once they've...
Speaker: once they've decided they're doing it. Because I think they're waiting for, I told you so, or they're worried I'm going to come in with loads of information and blah, blah, before they're ready to hear it. So to see the contradictions in Rude and the...
Speaker: the dilemmas and him trying to work things out and him asking questions of people, I think quite genuinely, and the responses they give. I mean, i did any of us think that any of the guests, if you like, could have been better or or didn't really add much? i i My gut feeling is that they all did a good job. No, was selection also of different types of expertise. I think that was very well done. And I also totally agree with you that we should definitely appreciate Ruth's openness and letting him see this journey. And maybe he he hasn't fully internalized all this information yet, but at least he's looking for the right information. He's talking to the experts. He is not ah hiding and he's also not ignoring the facts that are out there. So that's definitely the part of the film that I do do like. but It's just also combined with this uncertainty about how far that change will truly extend. And I hope to see in the future for Ruth that he's going to make that change to become that vegan and fully plant-based farmer. So not no longer a poultry farmer.
Speaker: I hope that will happen in the future. But so far, so good. I think he's taking good steps in the right direction. Yeah. Just hoping he's extending that. Yeah.
Speaker: Can we ask the question as to why this film has been made? i mean, on theveganpoultryfarmer.com, there is a section about Kadir, who is the the director, the the photojournalist and documentary maker that's put this together.
Speaker: Like, do we think it's come from them? They've approached Ruud or like, is is he spending his money on this? Is he going, ah do you know what? I'm having this dilemma. Like I'm gonna explore this journey in my mind publicly and put it out there. Is this a secret bit of, well, not secret, but very public bit of activism from him? Like if I'm gonna be in the poultry industry,
Speaker: then at least I can do some, you know, sneaky activism by getting a documentary made about the dilemmas and contradictions. Like, why has the film been made?
Speaker: I got the sense that he likes being, then like, ah getting attention. So I feel like maybe he might have been happy to present it, almost like marketing for Kipster. because i don know like I don't think it's good marketing for Kipster.
Speaker: I don't know, he but that's maybe he thought it was. I think it actually is good marketing for Kipster, to be honest. Yeah, Kipster is a well-known brand in the Netherlands by now. And he is also in commercials of ah big supermarkets we have in the Netherlands. And they're really proud to sell Kipster. and He is becoming, well, not a famous person, but yeah.
Speaker: He's looking for publicity, i think. But i and I don't know who took the initiative for this film. Really, I don't know whether that was Kadir Lohuizen or Ruud Sanders himself. I don't know.
Speaker: i really don't know. But I mean, to your point, Svenna, like do get that. I mean, didn't know the name Kipster before this film and now I do. I'm not going to- I neither. Not going stop buying their eggs. But I just think if your main aim was this is going to be some PR for Kipster, I don't think you'd have the ending you did. The ending is, well, it epitomizes to my mind anyway, how I received the ending. was uncertainty and it effectively just kind of ends with the, well, we see a chicken in its natural habitat in Thailand, which I was really glad to see because so many people just think that chickens have been grazing the fields of Europe. which is not true they are an imported animal they're not native to this continent at all and and then it sort of just drifts away doesn't it and we're kind of and the and the soundtrack's kind of thoughtful and pensive too and i just think if if you were the head of pr at kipster i think you'd want to just a final word or something you know But Rude, his idea of going into it, if he's approached by filmmakers to do it, might be like, oh yeah, I can showcase Kipster and I can go all these places and talk about all these innovations. And the filmmakers might have had more subversive intent in making it.
Speaker: I also thought of another title. The mostly plant-based poultry farmer. jerk Just add a question, Mark, at the end of Vegan Poultry Farmer.
Speaker: It's much quicker, much snappier. Goodness me. Goodness me. This is the film that just keeps giving. I reckon we could have several more conversations about this. Does anyone want to have a final little comment or observation or pointer or thing that we've not discussed before we round off? Maybe we can just invite the listeners to...
Speaker: try to see if they can watch the film somewhere. i am aware the documentary film originally is in Dutch, so that's not very accessible for most listeners, I suppose, but maybe they can also contact the the makers of the film and try to see whether it's possible to get an English subtitled version somewhere and I got the impression that they will be producing it in English I mean they've already gone to the trouble of you know having an English narrator and everything like that firing a posh English man to talk in some of the I think they are going to release it it in English yeah okay then so we should keep that in mind yeah keep an eye out for it
Speaker: Yeah, and I mean, if you go on the website, which there is a link in the show notes for, on the homepage, scroll down a little way and there's a stay up to date bit where you can just put your name, your email, and presumably you'll get a newsletter every now and then. I think Conscientious Vegans, by doing so, you will not be funding any egg creation or any chicken exploitation. So I think you can...
Speaker: pretty much guilt-free. Just sign up to a newsletter on this film's website with a clean conscience. Super stuff. Thank you, Svenna. Thank you, Shane. What a great conversation. I'm going say thank you, Rude, as well. Thank you, Lotta. Thanks, all the people. What a great conversation. Listeners, as much as we loved what Shane and Svenna maybe me, had to say, you might be listening going, no, no, no, you've missed the obvious point here. Or you could do what Svenna did and say, ah it's interesting you're talking about this. This reminds me of dot, dot, dot. And then we'll go down a whole other avenue, which will be fruitful and enjoyable. um So we want to hear your opinions. Shane, I've forgotten.
Speaker: What's our email address? I'm so glad you asked me, Anthony. It's enoughofthefalafel, all one word, at gmail.com. And we will read and respond to any email sent by listeners. And we will also feature your email in our listener mailbag show unless you ask us not to. And then we will respect that.
Speaker: Yeah. I was thinking that that the one kind of email we don't respond to is spam. And we do get spam from people trying to promote their plant-based nutrition guide and and and things like that. So I think we'll do one listener mailbag show one time where oh I'll just read out all of the spam emails that we get from people that say, Reverend Jeff has been a vegan for 19 years and would be a great guest on your podcast. And they've clearly never listened to the show and don't realize what we talk about anyway enough of my nonsense uh if you're still with us despite my blabbering on there's a good chance that you like what we're doing um if you want to help us out we do have a ko-fi page links in the show notes with all the proceeds to that just go towards making the show better we don't pocket any of it so new microphones and the like you can donate as a little as a pound or a euro or a
Speaker: dollar a month uh ko-fi.com slash enough of the falafel yes and you can also rate us or leave a review on your podcast player and subscribe to our show and then you will also be informed when we release new episodes um and last but not least don't forget to tell people about the show and share these episodes Yes, please do. Thank you everyone for listening. The next Enough of the Falafel episode will be Vegan Week coming August 17th and it will feature Anthony, me and Mark and it will be a roundup of the week's vegan and animal rights news stories.
Speaker: That's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you, Ant and Shane for your contribution as well and anyone for listening. We appreciate you as the listeners. I've been Svenna and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from Enough of the Falafel Collective.
