Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 11 - Daniel Gardner, President of Trade Facilitators Inc.
100 Plays5 years ago
PROFILES
SUPPLY CHAIN CONVERSATIONS
—————————————————
EPISODE 11 - DANIEL GARDNER, President of Trade Facilitators Inc.
—————————————————
Welcome to Profiles, a podcast centered around supply chain conversations hosted by Brian Glick, founder and CEO of Chain.io.
Our guest this week is DANIEL GARDNER.
Daniel is a global trade executive with a unique combination of 3PL, consulting and Beneficial Cargo Owner experience. He is fully bilingual (ESP) and a Licensed Customs Broker. He was awarded his MBA from the University of Miami. Daniel can also boast of being a multi-award winning professor of supply chain management, a Six Sigma Black Belt and the author of four books on global trade.
“…It’s hard to imagine that one could know everything that one needs to know about global trade, but that knowledge, which should always continue to grow, will come over time, you just have to be willing to work and listen.”
Listen in as Brian and Daniel discuss:
- How Daniel initially got into the supply chain industry having been bitten by the international travel bug.
- The diversity of experiences available for someone coming into the supply chain.
- The fundamental importance of education and keeping up with current Incoterms.
- Having a strong company policy and strategy around Incoterms can reduce risk.
- What influenced Daniel during his journey within the industry?
- How time flies, so really get on with the heavy lifting early on in your career. Never stop learning.
- Bridging the gap between analogue and digital and how it influences growth.
- You must ask to be given extra tasks and be willing to work hard when new in the industry to learn and grow.
“…ask questions and listen, and take notes where you can, because that’s going to broaden your frame of reference. Because, on a tactical level, at the end, and I mean operationally now, 80% of global trade is always different and changing, but a lot of it becomes repetitive.”
Resources mentioned in the show:
- Daniel Gardner - LinkedIn
- Trade Facilitators, Inc.
- TPM Conference
Subscribe to the podcast in iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts so that you’re updated when we post a new episode!
Take care, and until next time,
Brian Glick
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to INCO Terms Update
00:00:02
Speaker
Something as simple as Incoterms, the international commercial terms. And I'm talking about things like X-Works and free carrier and cost and freight and those.
00:00:11
Speaker
terms and I'm reminded of it because again the International Chamber of Commerce updates the INCO terms every 10 years. So they just went in on Jan 1 and I've done a number of online as well as in-person trainings on this subject.
Episode Introduction with Brian Glick
00:00:26
Speaker
Welcome to Profiles. I'm Brian Glick, CHAIO's founder and CEO. On this episode we're going to be talking to Dan Gardner. Dan is the president and co-founder of Trade Facilitators.
00:00:38
Speaker
Trade Facilitators works with all of us in the industry to advance education. They provide training and consulting on how to best use all of the different tools that we have in the industry to advance our business goals.
00:00:54
Speaker
a little bit of a trigger warning on this one. If you've ever been buried in a deep, deep conversation on Incoterms and that's going to set you off, you might want to steer away as Dan and I both have loved that topic and got pretty deep. So otherwise have fun and I hope you enjoy the episode.
Dan Gardner's Career Journey into Trade
00:01:16
Speaker
Welcome, Dan. It's so nice to have you on the show. Thank you for having me. So why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got into supply chain and logistics? Well, that's going back a few years, but I'm originally from Massachusetts, and I actually had an interest in Spanish in high school that took me to be an exchange student when I was a senior in high school. I actually kind of caught the international bug as a result of that experience. And when I got out of college, I grew up
00:01:44
Speaker
I'd say 10 miles from Logan Airport in Boston, Massport. And that being a hub in the New England for international trade, I went to a trade show down there, hand out 50 resumes to people I didn't know. And one guy called me back and he was a customs broker. And that's how I got in the industry. I'm only laughing because I also randomly ended up starting at a customs broker.
00:02:11
Speaker
Oh, did you really? I didn't know that. Yes. Found the job came in from the computer side, but just circled a couple jobs in the local newspaper. And for those younger listeners, that was a physical piece of paper that was delivered to your house every day. And so circled a few of those. And one of them was a customer's broker. And now I'm stuck. Yeah. All I knew after being an exchange student and going to college and such was that I wanted to work in some facet
00:02:41
Speaker
of international trade. Who knows? I could have ended up in pharmaceutical work or on the technology side. It just so happened that I grew up near Logan Airport and back in those days, you kind of had to go to those trade shows and
00:02:56
Speaker
handout resumes and it was just, you use the word random, I'd say it was a pretty random event. So a lot of people show up on their first day and then they're out, right? So what made you stay? Yeah, well, I think the main thing, and I've said this many times over my career, it's the diversity of experiences that one can have in the workplace, whether you work in operations or sales or even accounting and finance, the technology side,
00:03:24
Speaker
I was in the freight, what we used to call freight forwarding and customs brokerage, now the 3PL industry and I worked in sales during the day and I worked part-time operations at night to learn a little bit about the business. And what you realize right away is that you can literally be dealing with five industries in one day, importing or exporting from anywhere in the world in the course of a single day or week.
00:03:49
Speaker
The opportunity to travel was always there, so I think it was the diversity of experiences that really attracted me. And while anyone will have ups and downs in their career, it's just been an amazing, lifelong experience that continues.
00:04:04
Speaker
to this day and what I loved about it then, I love about it now. So do you think, I know there's a lot of people who come in on the, maybe the sales side or the IT side and never really do the operations side. If somebody's coming in, do you recommend sort of spending that time in operations? Does that help develop something you wouldn't get otherwise?
00:04:28
Speaker
I do, the short answer is yes, I do, because in the end, especially in a sales role, speaking specifically to the 3PL logistics and supply chain space, really what you have other than the organization that you work for and its physical footprint and offices around the world and service capabilities, if you're sitting in front of a customer,
00:04:48
Speaker
And you work for a company, I worked for a DHL Global Forwarding. There was 135,000 people in that one division. And if you're one person calling on a customer, you're representing everybody else. And essentially what you have is what's in your head. And it really comes down to the application of acquired knowledge, which is just a fancy way of saying, I don't think there's a born customs broker. I wasn't a born customs broker. I had to study and take the test.
00:05:15
Speaker
So I think you do have to work. You do have to gain that operational experience and then apply what you learn in the in the workplace in real situations and be willing to make some mistakes along the way. So that's that's a good segue with with learning and taking a test. Why don't you why don't you tell us a little bit about what you're what you're doing nowadays?
Trade Facilitators' Mission and Focus
00:05:35
Speaker
Yeah. Well, my company Trade Facilitators Incorporated. I actually incorporated the name. You might find this amusing back in 1994.
00:05:45
Speaker
only because I like the name. And I used to joke with my friends in the forwarding industry that I'm a trade facilitator and you're just a freight forwarder. Now I said that facetiously, but after a while, it started to stick in my head and have that company for 13 years before I ever actually used it. So TFI, as it's called today, we would do essentially three things. The learning component you mentioned, we do training, develop online classes for universities, trade associations, et cetera.
00:06:14
Speaker
We do the consulting piece, predominantly trans-specific eastbound, both supply chain and logistics, as well as trade compliance on the custom side. And then we do some marketing specific to companies in the supply chain space that are working towards digitizing.
00:06:31
Speaker
the supply chain. So we do a little bit of everything, but that educational component has been a reflection of my own personal philosophy and commitment to education for the reasons we spoke of previously, the ability to apply what you learn in the marketplace, and was lucky enough to turn
00:06:47
Speaker
That philosophy that passion really into a business model and when you can monetize what makes you happy that's a good place to be it certainly is put you on the spot here a little bit but is there something that as you go out in your consulting side that you just wish
00:07:04
Speaker
more people in the industry took the time to educate themselves on where you go out there and you're like, man, I keep hitting the same block over and over again, that people just don't know this. Oh, boy. How much time do we have? What's the top thousand? Well, there's probably lots of different subjects, but one that comes to mind, and it's really a fundamental aspect of logistics and supply chain, and timely,
Importance of INCO Terms in Risk Management
00:07:30
Speaker
because they change on the decade, something as simple as Incoterms, the international commercial terms. And I'm talking about things like ex-works and free carrier and cost and freight and those terms. And I'm reminded of it because again, the International Chamber of Commerce updates the Incoterms every 10 years. So they just went in on Jan 1 and I've done a number of online as well as in-person trainings on this subject. So it's fresh in my mind, but it seems like
00:07:59
Speaker
a seemingly unimportant subject that can have such ramifications for a supply chain, be it import or export from a risk management perspective, from a financial perspective, from a customer service perspective, that to this day it shocks me how little organizations know about Incoterms or the lack of importance that they put on Incoterms.
00:08:22
Speaker
So I mean, I could go on for hours about different subjects, but that's one that's really fresh in my mind. I had a very, very similar experience with a client one time where they were coming to us for all sorts of reporting because their credit line was heavily influenced by how much inventory they had on hand. And they really didn't understand how their INCO terms impacted their ability, essentially their credit facility, because
00:08:48
Speaker
you know, they didn't really understand when they were taking possession of the goods and that they actually owned things that they couldn't see. Yeah, well, that's one aspect. Right. And that that whole concept and how it how it impacts everything. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's just so far reaching. It's like I said, it's just it's surprising to me that that organizations don't have a policy and a strategy around eco terms, because it does impact things like cash flow,
00:09:16
Speaker
and risk management in terms of risk of loss or damage to the goods in transit and who's on the hook for what. And I did a two-day class last week up in the Central Valley of California for the largest shippers association exporters of almonds and walnuts and pistachios. We're talking some major ocean container exports and just talking about the importance of of Incoterms and you need literally have to have a policy and a strategic grounding
00:09:47
Speaker
for the Incoterms that you choose. And if you don't, it becomes, to use that word again, random. And you don't want to get educated on Incoterms live. Read the book for us, would be my advice. I would imagine, especially on a food shipment, right? With spoilage and all that fun stuff. Well, goodness, just how to properly pack and who's responsible for procuring the Ocean Bill of Lading. Incoterms 2020 changed as it relates to marine cargo insurance. How do you handle that? The list just goes on and on.
00:10:18
Speaker
So at the risk of depriving the audience of another hour of encode terms, which I'm sure, I'm sure the two of us could certainly do shift gears here a little bit. Can I, who are some of the influences on you, you know, through, through your journey through the industry? Oh boy. There's been a number. Well, I'll start with my parents for one, but just very supportive.
00:10:46
Speaker
put me through college, helped me with graduate school, you know, and believed in me when my behavior would have indicated them not to believe in me. So let's start with them. But I had a Spanish teacher in high school, that same person who got me involved in the exchange program in 10th and 11th grade, sorry, 11th and 12th grade, that just sparked my interest in languages and
00:11:11
Speaker
inspired me to continue studying Spanish and I ended up in Latin America or in the 3PL space. So her name was Karen Brown, major, major influence there. And then career wise, I've had a lot of just mentors and people that gave me an opportunity that otherwise, you know, my life may have taken a different direction. A lot of whom actually, you might recall Fritz companies from back in the day, since acquired by
00:11:38
Speaker
UPS some years back, but got my real break in the Port of Boston at Fritz companies, starting with Lynn Fritz, who was the son of the founder, played a huge role. They basically transferred me from Boston down to Bogota, Colombia, that really kickstarted my career.
00:11:55
Speaker
guys like Ralph Gazitua, who was the president of Latin America for Fritz companies, my good friend and colleague from Fritz Boston, Ron Jordan, just a bunch of people that helped me out along the way. So across that journey, obviously, we all we all never stopped learning, which seems seems to be today's theme.
Career Reflections and Professional Growth
00:12:16
Speaker
But what have you learned along the way that you really wish you knew at the beginning? You know, I, I don't know if I didn't know it at the beginning.
00:12:25
Speaker
but maybe should have acknowledged it a little bit more. And we're getting a little philosophical here, but it's just how quickly time goes by in life in general, but career wise as well. I've been at this for 30 years. I'd like to be at it for another 15, continue working and continue to be an adjunct professor, you know, well into the latter stages of my
00:12:52
Speaker
career, but it's just, like I said, I knew it and you hear it all the time, you know, time flies and all these different cliches. Well, things become cliches oftentimes because they're true. And I wish that I had acknowledged that sooner in my career, perhaps taking things a little more seriously earlier in my career. And that would be the advice I'd give to younger people. You're not going to be young forever. Do most of the heavy lifting if you
00:13:25
Speaker
And just kind of pace yourself, I guess, would be the best advice because it is a marathon. And I say it all the time, international trade is a contact sport. And if you think you're going to be successful all the time, you're going to be sadly disappointed. And when disappointment does come your way, you need to be in a position to dust yourself off and
00:13:49
Speaker
Get right back into it. I think when I was on the customs side of the house, one of the things that excited me was in that realm of it being a contact sport that it's one of those businesses where every day something is broken and there's an opportunity to fix it.
00:14:13
Speaker
right? That there's never a day where there isn't some shipment that's delayed or some regulation that's changing or, you know, God knows what in this day and age, but, you know, that that's going on that just gives you that that chance.
Adapting to Global Trade Dynamics
00:14:27
Speaker
But yeah, it's never it's never calm. It's never smooth waters, right? Yeah, well, you bring up an important point because I hear the term expert get thrown a lot around.
00:14:37
Speaker
And I've been referred to that myself and I oftentimes cajole people, A, I don't consider myself an expert and beware the ones who consider themselves one. And I'm talking specific to global trade now. It's just so vast and so ever-changing to your earlier point that it's hard to imagine that one could know everything that one needs to know about global trade. And that knowledge should always continue to grow and be continuously learning will come
00:15:07
Speaker
Over time, you just have to be willing to work and listen and put yourself out there in uncomfortable situations, make mistakes, rely on the input of others and move forward because that's
00:15:22
Speaker
It's global trade, man. Emphasis on global. A couple of episodes ago, I had Eric Johnson from the Journal of Commerce on. And he and I were discussing whether he posited that IT was, I might be misquoting this slightly, but that IT was harder than global trade to learn. And my argument back to him was that
00:15:47
Speaker
The breadth of IT might be wider, but the depth of any particular topic in global trade is so immensely deep. You can take a tariff number or a chapter and spend a career and really still have difficulty classifying a piece of footwear. For me, I spent some time doing duty drawback.
00:16:14
Speaker
you could spend a decade and still feel a little bit like a fish out of water jumping from a consumer goods drawback to an oil and gas drawback. Yeah, that's an interesting point to talk about because if you look at the technology, call it the analog versus the digital world, the physical world versus what goes on in the technology space. And one thing that I've observed, and I'm not a technologist, no do I profess to be, but there's always been a gap. And I'm going back to when
00:16:44
Speaker
you know, the fax machine, what was the technology of the day, unfortunately, and through EDI, there's lots and lots of people and companies out there that know a lot about technology, but maybe not as much about global trade. And then you have people that know a lot about global trade out in the physical world, but not so much around the technology piece. So it's the company and people that can acquire knowledge in both those areas and bridge that gap.
00:17:11
Speaker
That I think is the greatest opportunity in your company is the prime example of that because I know you have that background as do many people in your company and the opportunities honestly that I see for trade facilitators and myself and even people coming into the trade a new.
00:17:29
Speaker
is to go out and acquire those skills in both areas to the extent you can and the value that you can create is almost limitless. Yeah, I will be the first to admit that even within the context of Chainio and what we do, you know, when I founded this company,
00:17:47
Speaker
what I would say is a pretty healthy understanding of international supply chain, right from purchase order all the way through to sort of warehouse receipt. And what I've personally learned from engaging with customers on a
00:18:04
Speaker
other areas of the industry. How do you properly rate a drage move or various things we're dealing with on the domestic side and how they're different than the international side? There's not a day that goes by that I'm not still learning just from that intersection of just the tech and the world.
00:18:27
Speaker
sort of learning something about new business processes that have been going on for 1000 years or 100 years, depending on the process, that I just, you know, even 20 years and just had no idea, you know, say, Oh, yeah, they just issue a delivery order, right? And what goes into that, right? And on the other side of receiving the delivery order and being a dry carrier, for instance. Yeah, it's, you know, it's a common theme in this conversation, but the ongoing
00:18:56
Speaker
learning process is so important. And one of the things that I'm happy about that I did realize earlier in my career, and I've traveled, I mean, I have 3 million miles just on American Airlines. So I've been around a bit, 50 odd countries lived in Latin America for, for five years. But one of the things I always insisted on when possible, especially when visiting customers was, can we see your factory? Can we go see
00:19:20
Speaker
your DC. If you work with a third party, can we go see that facility and just ask questions and listen and take notes where you can, because that's going to broaden your frame of reference. Because on a tactical level, at the end, and I mean operationally now, 80% of global trade, it's always different and changing. And there's always going to be nuances and such. But a lot of it becomes repetitive.
00:19:46
Speaker
after a while, 80% let's say maybe 75. So you can apply things you learned in a similar area to new scenarios as you move forward. And as I said, also, the thing I liked the most about 3PL was that exposure that you get, but you have to take advantage of that exposure even today in consulting and some of the things that we do always want to hear about the client's business,
00:20:14
Speaker
always want to understand their perspective, who's the customer's customer, all of those things to just broaden your frame of reference and put yourself in a better position, whether you work for yourself, your own company, or you're an employee that you can maximize the amount of value that you create.
Value Creation in the 3PL Industry
00:20:30
Speaker
Because that's in the end, especially in the service side of things.
00:20:35
Speaker
It's about value creation. And in the 3PL space, on an individual level, it's the application of acquired knowledge that counts the most.
00:20:44
Speaker
So I saw a question somebody posed on LinkedIn the other day, one of those sort of ask, ask advice things that they have. And they said, you know, I'm working in operations and I have, you know, I want to expand. I want to grow. I have all these ideas. How do I get out of or sort of grow past just doing clearances all day or doing, you know, filing bills of lading all day? Do you have kind of any thoughts on where a younger person might
00:21:12
Speaker
look to spread their wings or how to go about doing that? Yeah, that's a great one because I've had that experience myself earlier in my career working in brake bulk and cutting airway bills at night and all that fun stuff. I think the shortest answer is you have to be lucky enough to have a boss who's willing to let you do those things. And assuming that you have that type of boss,
00:21:40
Speaker
It's a simple answer, but you have to get out and volunteer and say, hey, give me some additional work. Is there an online training, an online free training course that I can do? Or is there company stuff that I can do? Oftentimes, and I wouldn't exclude my own kids from this characterization because they're a college age and getting out into the workplace. Sometimes, not always, but sometimes the expectation is that things have to come to them.
00:22:08
Speaker
where you need to be in a position to put yourself out there and ask for additional work and ask for a project. Is there someplace I can help out? Come in on a Saturday. And then the huge benefit these days is obviously the internet and free courses and even certificates you can pay for that are reasonably priced just to broaden your own perspective and demonstrate a clear commitment
00:22:35
Speaker
to willingness to work hard to advance to the next level but you do need to be a little bit lucky and work for a company that encourages those things and a boss that will.
00:22:45
Speaker
serve as a mentor and a guide because it's not always like that. I found that in my experience, at least just sort of add on to that is that almost every job or at least every interesting job I've had in my career, I essentially made up and started doing the work and then said went back later and said, Hey, I'm doing this other thing, maybe we could turn that into into something, right? So, you know, if I'm in operations, and I start
00:23:12
Speaker
learning how to build some better Excel reports, right, or build, you know, use the analytics tool a little differently. You know what, in six months, you've done it for four, four big customers, just nobody asked you to, you just send them to the account reps. Next thing you know, you're a data analyst, right, right. So
00:23:27
Speaker
It's not always about, certainly if you want to get into compliance and classification, you got to get certifications and everything, but whether it's sales, right? Go talk to the clients you're already working with and try to figure out a way to go back to the sales guy with a hot lead on that they're going into a new trade lane, right? That sometimes you just do the job. Oh, yeah. And then the title will find you. Oh, absolutely. And kind of position yourself as that known
00:23:54
Speaker
go to person and no is never the answer. And just over time, get that reputation for someone that can be relied upon to do quality work and take on a challenge. This conversation harkens me back to the first public speaking engagement I ever had. I never took public speaking in high school, didn't take debate, didn't take public speaking or creative writing in college or graduate school.
00:24:23
Speaker
for that matter. And I was in sales at this company in Boston. And we had an owner, there were three owners and they believe very much in education and what, you know, I was going to say webinars, but this was a long time ago, they used to do actual seminars. Yeah, right. And, you know, provide good information in exchange for access to customers. So long story short, we had a person who was in charge of that and said person was a
00:24:51
Speaker
a bit of a prima donna and got all huffy one day, like the day before a seminar and walked out. And I said, I was 23 years old. And this is how long ago this was. I'll never forget the subject. It wasn't even NAFTA. It was US-Canada free trade before NAFTA. And I said, I can do this. And to their credit, because it was their company and their brand on the line, they let me do it.
00:25:20
Speaker
And I went home, I stayed up all night studying about US, you know, because I was going to the webinar, actually the webinar, here I go again, the seminar as, you know, as an account rep and just listening and making people feel comfortable and drumming up some sales leads and such. Now I have to make the presentation and stayed up all night studying that material. And if it wasn't for those guys, and that leap of faith company called Ocean Air in Boston that is still in business to this day,
00:25:47
Speaker
If they hadn't let me do that and put their good name on the line, maybe I wouldn't have gotten that start.
Understanding vs. Jargon in Global Trade
00:25:53
Speaker
I think there might actually be another hidden lesson in there as well, which is that a lot of times we get the impression that everyone else in this industry, because they know how to throw a lot of terminology around, really knows what they're talking about. And in many cases, it's not as the barrier between not knowing anything and knowing more than most people is not that high.
00:26:16
Speaker
I don't know if that was politically correct, but to know enough to educate someone on a trade agreement. You may not be educating the foremost attorney at Santa Travis, but to be able to get a good working knowledge on something is not that hard, or as hard as people may think. Yeah, that's another subject of mine. If you want to talk about getting politically incorrect quickly, we won't go down
00:26:44
Speaker
But ours is an industry where if you throw around a couple acronyms and a few trade terms, you can make it sound like you know what you're talking about. It takes a little bit more than that. And one of the benefits of being involved in the educational side of the business, starting with those seminars from ages ago and becoming an adjunct professor and now trade facilitators, here's what I learned.
Continuous Learning for Trade Educators
00:27:09
Speaker
If you want to be a good teacher, you'd better be an even better student.
00:27:13
Speaker
And that means preparing to the hilt because if you get up in front of a room full of people and you make a presentation, you need to be ready for any question. Any question is fair game. And you can't be BSing people along the way, especially when it's mission critical information that you're talking about. So I've taken pride and continue to do so in a willingness to really learn the material, try to make it interesting, keep it relevant and such.
00:27:42
Speaker
But I'd like to think maybe a step ahead of the competition, if you will, in terms of providing people with the information they need, in the end, to be more competitive in their job. And that's something I take really seriously. So if people want to take the shortcut and leverage your knowledge and your resources, how can they get
Contact Information for Trade Facilitators
00:28:06
Speaker
in touch with you? Where's the best place to find all this information?
00:28:10
Speaker
Oh, wow. So, Companies Trade Facilitators Incorporated. It's actually the website and email addresses is a shortening of that. It works out in Spanish actually, but it's tradefacil.com. Contact at tradefacil.com and we can reach out. We had a bunch of inquiries this morning coming into that email address actually. So, that's probably the
00:28:37
Speaker
the best place to do that. Awesome. And I know you're also a little bit of a trade show junkie, so you're always out and about, and easy to track down at those things as well. Yeah, yeah, actually, going to be speaking for the third year running at the Trans Pacific Maritime Conference in Long Beach. The JOC, General O'Connor, sponsors kind enough to
00:29:01
Speaker
invite me back for that. So yeah, that's the first week of March, I think. So we'll be at that out and about. And then there's a pulse of the port. But that's tomorrow. I live and work very close to
00:29:15
Speaker
the LA Long Beach port complex. So that's my, I'm a Boston boy, but LA Long Beach has been my home port for 15 years now. Yeah, you picked a big enough port. Yeah, yeah, there's containers moving around. So I think we're, we're aiming for a little bit of a streak here. This will be three episodes in a row with people who will be at TPM. So
00:29:35
Speaker
I think we're going to have to have a little reunion of we had Sarah Barnes Humphrey from Let's Talk Supply Chain on last and Eric before that. I'll be there as well. We're all speaking. That should be a good time. And this should probably be airing just before that. Oh, good. So hopefully we'll see everybody really soon who's listening to this on air date. Well, you know what they say about global trade, especially freight forwarding. It's five o'clock somewhere. So you know what that means.
00:30:01
Speaker
It certainly is. And I think it's about five o'clock right now for me. So why don't we wrap up. And again, really appreciate you having on. It's a fascinating conversation. Likewise, I enjoyed it. Thank you for having me.
00:30:15
Speaker
Thanks so much to Dan for participating in today's show. And if you're gonna be out at TPM in the next few weeks, please make sure to look Dan up on LinkedIn or me or our previous two guests. Sarah Barnes Humphrey and Eric Johnson will all be there and hanging out. You can reach out if you just go through Chain.io's LinkedIn or info at chain.io and reach out if you wanna talk to us or to any of our other guests, please let us know.
00:30:44
Speaker
and we'll be happy to make the connections.