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Building a Liberal Coalition Against Authoritarianism
183 Plays1 year ago
We sat down with Shikha Dalmia, the Founder of the Unpopulist Magazine and the President of the Institute for the Study of Modern Authoritarianism, to explore what's causing the rise of authoritarianism across the globe and discuss the best strategy to fight back against it.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Biography
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the latest episode of the Project Liberal podcast. I'm your host, Joshua Echol, joined as always by my co-host in recovery back at his office and his desk. How are you feeling? Finally. I'm good. I'm feeling much, much better. I have finally been able to get up and walk around for the past week and a half. So I'm getting there.
00:00:17
Speaker
Good. Okay. Well, today we're joined by a guest who I'm incredibly honored to have on the show. She is one of the members of our advisory board as well as a very, you know, well-known speaker in the topic of authoritarianism. And I want to take a minute to introduce her name is Sheikah Dalmia. I hope I did not screw up your last name Sheikah. If I did, I apologize.
00:00:42
Speaker
Perfect. Perfect. So Sheikah is the president for the Institute for the Study of Modern Authoritarianism. She's also the founder of the Unpopulist magazine. And she describes herself as a reformist libertarian fighting populist authoritarianism. And Sheikah, we're huge fans of your voice and the things that you speak out about. So thank you for taking time to talk to us. Greatly appreciate it.
00:01:06
Speaker
Thanks for having me on Josh and Jonathan. It's a pleasure. And just one little pitch for my sub-stack. It's free on populace.net. And so please subscribe. Awesome. Great content on there.
00:01:21
Speaker
Absolutely. And you'll see that on the Project Liberal channels. We try to boost it as much as we can, because we are also huge fans of
The Rise of Illiberalism Worldwide
00:01:27
Speaker
that content. So let me frame everything real quick, Sheikah, and then I'll just kind of tee you off on the first major topic. So it's no secret to the three of us on the call, and for most of the people in our audience, that illiberalism is on a rise around the globe. It's not just in the United States. It's in countries across the world.
00:01:46
Speaker
It feels like liberal democracy is under threat. It feels like authoritarianism is finding a new stronghold in political environments everywhere. And there are a lot of people wondering how to navigate this new multipolar world with this threat of authoritarianism looming on the horizon.
00:02:07
Speaker
Obviously, you being an expert in the study of these types of things, we wanted to talk to you a bit about that. It's okay to kick off the conversation. I wanted to see whether you had any thoughts on what do you think the primary drivers of this recent surge that we're seeing are? What do you think the causes of it are and how it's showing up in societies around the world?
00:02:35
Speaker
So it's a big question. And, you know, I think it's a little too much to call me an expert on it. I'm just aware of what other people think and write and add a little bit of my own evaluation to that. But, you know, to back up a little, you know, interestingly, Samuel Huntington, who was his Harvard political scientist, two years after the Berlin Wall fell,
Historical Context of Authoritarianism
00:03:03
Speaker
He said the world had basically experienced three waves of liberalization, democratization. The first wave was after the 1820s in the United States when all white American men got franchised. And that wave continued for a long time, and countries like France and Germany started expanding the franchise.
00:03:31
Speaker
Then he said the second wave of democratization was after the Second World War, 1945, after the fall of Germany, the fascist regime, Japan, imperial regime, and the triumph of liberal democracies led to the threat of liberalism around the world.
00:03:52
Speaker
I mean, in my own native country, India, you know, was one of those countries that actually democratized after the Second World War. We'll get to that in a second. It was a bit of an anomaly because, you know, one of the predictors of liberalization was a certain degree of economic wealth, which India didn't have. It was actually a very poor country. But, you know, so there was another wave of democratization at that time. And then the third wave happened actually, you know, after the fall of communism.
00:04:22
Speaker
And, but then that, you know, that was sort of looking backward and trying to make sense of what had happened. But one of the interesting things he said in that was, he said each of the previous waves had been followed by a reversal, that there was, you know, every time there had been this rapid democratization, there was pushback. And, you know, and so you saw a lot of the gains lost.
00:04:48
Speaker
And he predicted this would happen after this third wave of liberalization. And almost as if on cue, you know, 2005, 2006, this democratic slump started happening. You know, much of the whole Arab Spring, you know, that hope was quashed at that time. People thought it was going to democratize.
00:05:12
Speaker
China started after a stellar period of economic liberalization. People thought it was going to politically liberalize. That started backsliding. Europe started coming under the sway of certain far-right ideologies that have just increased and grown.
00:05:29
Speaker
And so, and India, my country, in fact, you know, my native country, I mean, that starting in around 2014, you know, it was a pretty established liberal democracy. And I think to me, that's kind of like in some ways the most dramatic outside of America, the most dramatic setback in liberal democracy.
Economic Theories vs. Reality
00:05:50
Speaker
All of this started happening at the same time.
00:05:53
Speaker
And so it's an interesting question. Why? Why did this happen? Now, one of the theories is kind of like Frank Fukuyama pushes is that, you know, he's a liberal Democrat, big fan of liberalism is fighting the good fight. But he also thinks that liberalism, you know, especially the rapid economic liberalization produced a lot of losers.
00:06:16
Speaker
And from trade, from immigration, you know, free flow of people, what have you. And he didn't think liberal democracies had good systems and safety nets in place, you know, to deal with sort of these what he calls the doozers of globalization and liberalization.
00:06:35
Speaker
There are other theories too. I frankly don't agree with this theory because, you know, India is not, nobody in India is a loser of globalization or liberalization, right? India has become, has eradicated poverty, you know, very rapidly after liberalization. So some people may have benefited more and some people may have benefited less.
Liberalism's Inherent Discontent
00:06:59
Speaker
I can't say that there are any real losers of any of this. Neither is China. I think the West is a somewhat more complicated case. But the fact is that the economic effect is so unevenly distributed that you can't really pin this global phenomenon on just such a sort of uneven,
00:07:20
Speaker
outcomes at best for what they are saying. My own theory is this and take it for whatever it is. I think, you know, liberalism is it's it's the kind of system that is going to breed discontent from all sides. Nobody is going to be happy with liberalism. And there are a number of what liberalism essentially does. In my view, it is an anti-majoritarian
00:07:50
Speaker
It is supposed to put a break on sort of majoritarian power and very often the tyranny that comes with majoritarian power.
00:08:04
Speaker
The outcome of that is that the dominant group's majority is always somewhat unhappy because they feel like if they had a pure democracy or they could use force, they could get their way much more frequently because they have the numbers on their side. So they are always somewhat unhappy with liberalism.
00:08:24
Speaker
And I think minorities are unhappy with liberalism because liberalism is a deliberative political system. It doesn't allow change to happen rapidly. And so minorities who've been promised certain things under liberalism, equality, justice, all of that are unhappy with it.
00:08:46
Speaker
And so after a while, you know, when liberalism has been tried for a while, these discontent start to like prop up and, you know,
Populist Authoritarianism's Impact
00:08:56
Speaker
there's pushback. And I think something like that, in my view, is what is happening, which is why you're getting a liberalism not only from the right, which to me is the bigger threat right now, but there are also a liberal tendencies on the left, which sees itself as a champion of, you know, progressive causes.
00:09:11
Speaker
That's an interesting thought. Effectively, you're saying that the framework of liberal political systems will, in effect, create this discontent over a period of time. I am curious because, as you mentioned, it seems to be that there's a kind of a rubber banding effect. You've got some sort of political contentedness, and then as you see, there's these massive waves where we see the rise of populist authoritarianism.
00:09:39
Speaker
Do you think that I guess I should ask is and what I'm hearing is that is that indicative of the liberal system? And it's kind of on liberals to fight back against that I mean, do you feel like there are any other factors? Maybe if we just talk about the United States specifically that are contributing to this rise Other than maybe just general political discontent and that and flow over time
00:10:04
Speaker
Uh, yeah, you know, uh, just should clarify that, you know, when I say, you know, there is something cyclical to all of this, right? That, you know, you get liberalism and then you get a backlash against a liberalism and you get some varieties of authoritarianism. Then there's just content against those authoritarianism and you get maybe
00:10:23
Speaker
something else comes out of that, hopefully liberalism. So there is, so it's not, there's nothing metaphysical or mystical about it. I mean, it is sort of, you know, just how human affairs proceed. But what is weird to me about the current moment and this backlash against liberalism is that it has been in many ways a very, very successful, you know, political arrangement, right? I mean,
00:10:52
Speaker
In the history of the world, you haven't had such a long period of peace, right? Like, I mean, you have had wars, but nothing like the, you know, two great wars and, you know, what have you. It's also delivered like, you know, the great enrichment, great deal of prosperity. And so this backlash, there is something slightly, you know, weird about it to me. And, you know,
00:11:17
Speaker
And I think ultimately, you mentioned the world populist authoritarianism, right? And one of the things that Huntington had said was, he had said that, you know, when this backlash to the third wave of liberalism arises, he wasn't sure what the authoritarianism would look like.
00:11:35
Speaker
And it could, because Weimar Germany, you know, led to fascism, which nobody could have predicted, right? Like nobody thought that illiberalism and authoritarianism would take that
Empowerment of Authoritarian Leaders
00:11:47
Speaker
form. And he was a little bit uncertain what form it would take again, you know, when it transpired. What's interesting to me is that it's taking this populist form, right?
00:11:58
Speaker
And populist authoritarianism to me is the most, in some ways, the most insidious and the dangerous kind of authoritarianism, because in a liberal polity, you depend upon the people to guard their liberties. Right. I mean, that's a core principle of American, you know, the American political system of checks and balances. The people rise up and they
00:12:21
Speaker
you know demand their freedom and they resist the tyrant in the populist system the people and the you know the people are one with the authoritarian right like they think that the authoritarian is you know represents them speaks for them yeah speaks for them and you know and is enact implementing their will
00:12:42
Speaker
And so you can't count on the people to be a check on the authoritarian, right? And this is kind of like what is happening worldwide right now. I mean, if you see in India, it may be a religious nationalism, you know, but it is very much backed by populist sentiment, by majoritarian populist sentiment. I think the same to some extent was happening in Israel, definitely in Turkey, Poland, Hungary, Italy, France, and definitely, of course, in the United States.
00:13:11
Speaker
And, and this populism is to me, this comes to your question, Josh, this is, you know, ultimately, it's a dominant group backlash, right? It is, it is the discontent largely of like, majoritarian groups, people who are dominant, who were threatened by, you know, this sort of like, questioning of the status quo and the redistribution of certain, you know, rights and privileges. And
00:13:40
Speaker
So that's what's happening right now. That's kind of like the rubber band effect. That's kind of where we are getting this backlash to liberalism from is kind of like the populist, populist element. I think one of liberalism's greatest weaknesses is also its greatest strength, right? That stop on majoritarian power means that not everybody's going to be, not as many people are going to be, might be happy with the current political system, but we certainly are better off when we do place those stops
00:14:07
Speaker
on the majority and say, whoa, we need to hold back here. That also, I
Challenges to Liberal Democracy
00:14:12
Speaker
think, creates a situation where multiple minority groups bound by whatever ties that bring them together can become a majoritarian group to specifically impede on other people's liberty. And that's where I think liberalism can really
00:14:29
Speaker
It's not again, I think it's one of its greatest strengths, but it's also one of its greatest weaknesses in protecting against these minority groups coming together and pushing for these illiberal reforms. And John, to add to that and real quick and maybe get your thoughts on this, Sheikah, I find it ironic because I see a lot of these conversations happening online all the time. And I find it ironic that it is exactly what you said, John. It's like this coalition of different minority groups that have become what is effective. Look who Trump has pulled together.
00:14:56
Speaker
Right, and there are, within these minority groups, like some of them, some of the ones I see the most, actually they engage with us all the time, is this group called the post liberals, which are a group of like these very Catholic, I'd call them Catholic extremists, I don't know how else to describe them, and they are in and of themselves a pretty minority, like an extreme minority within American society, but they've convinced themselves
00:15:23
Speaker
That if somehow they can tear down a liberal democracy, they're going to rise up to become the arbiters of morality. The next society. Yeah, and it's like this delusion that they're somehow going to be the ones running the shots. So maybe that's a good pivot to the next question, Sheikah.
00:15:43
Speaker
How do you feel like you can get through to those people? Because I look at those people and many of the people within this coalition as effectively arguing for the system that will be their own downfall. And I feel like if you could find a way to articulate that to them and make it coherent, it might fracture the entire coalition.
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah, I'm curious as whether you've seen the same thing with you have any thoughts on that. Yeah, no, it's an interesting question, right? Yeah, you know, you're right. Like sort of the Catholic post liberals are the weirdest of them. They really are. Because, you know, they are Catholics are a minority in this country, and they are a minority within the Catholic minority, right? Like, so
00:16:19
Speaker
How do they think that they can rest the levers of power and impose their will? But actually, they do have a theory. I mean, if you read Adrian Vermeule, who's one of their key theoreticians, he has this idea where you first elect a sympathetic president, and then you don't get rid of the bureaucracy in the civil state, like the administrative state. You co-opt it.
00:16:47
Speaker
You put your people in key positions of power and then you just shove their agenda down the throat of the populace. And of course, you do away with democracy because if you give the people a chance at that point,
00:17:03
Speaker
They will rise, I guess, against this tyrant. And so you have one man, one vote, one dime kind of a thing. I guess that's what their view is. But they are a weird minority. I mean, minorities are typically part of the Progressive Coalition. And what you just said is exactly what I say to them.
00:17:23
Speaker
It is true that in a liberal democracy, your agenda and your aspirations are not going to proceed at a rapid fire pace, right? There is going to be, there is going to have to be deliberation. You are going to have to talk to other groups with whom you disagree.
00:17:45
Speaker
You're going to have to convince them you're going to have to win hearts and minds. But the alternative is if you tear down liberalism, what you have is pure, majoritarian power of whatever group is dominant. And that is never going to be down to your benefit. Right. I mean, that is a situation.
00:18:04
Speaker
I mean, that's what majority groups want. They want to exert raw power. They want to be freed from the constraints of liberal norms, liberal institutions, checks and balances to just impose their raw democratic will or raw will. And they can do it by two means. They can do it through elections because they have greater numbers or because they have greater numbers, they can also use violence and force.
00:18:31
Speaker
Either way, it's not going to read down to your benefit. So yes, you have discontent and yes, you know, things may not move as rapidly as you can, but there really is no better alternative. This is the best way to go about it. Let me add one more thing. One of the things that you're seeing on the right is
00:18:49
Speaker
You know, in some ways a backlash, some of it is I agree with you, you know, there have been excesses on the left. I mean, they've gone a bit too far on, you know, all kinds of things, including disinviting seekers from campuses and what have you. A little bit of that is overblown, but there is certainly a grain of truth to that.
00:19:10
Speaker
And what you hear from the right is that the reason Donald Trump is so popular is because minority groups or the left that represents minority groups now controls the commanding heights of our culture. Like every cultural institution, whether it is universities or Hollywood or media, legacy media,
00:19:33
Speaker
is now controlled by the progressive left, and so they need political power to push back against it. Now there is, I mean, and I think there is truth to that, but I think that's not illicit. I mean, minority groups have a hard time making their, wending their way through the political process because the deck to some extent is always stacked against them. So they have to do some kind of an end run and go to cultural institutions.
Populism and Political Stances
00:19:58
Speaker
And so I don't see it as illicit. I think ultimately, if all change has to happen through political means and deliberative means, the influence of those cultural institutions is tempered and based out. And I think minority groups need to understand that's how it works in a liberal democracy.
00:20:18
Speaker
I also wonder how much of kind of America's turn towards a liberalism is really partly because the left has had wins, right? The right looks to the left and sees all these wins that it's had. They've gotten gay marriage passed. They've gotten, you know, a few, you know, marks on the in the win column. Whereas the right feels like, well, what do we have?
00:20:38
Speaker
We got a few tax cuts here and there, right? So I wonder how much of this pushback that we're seeing is really because the right looks at the politicals, the results from politics and say, well, we haven't had any wins since when. Well, we got Roe v. Glenn. They just had Roe v. Wade overturned. But I don't see that as satisfying them as putting a political win, because that was a judicial decision, right? So I wonder how much that has to play into that kind of that psyche of we're because they do.
00:21:07
Speaker
They really have this kind of, we're a victim of the culture, of politics, of institutions. And they also, that victimhood also really spirals into a lot of conspiratorial thinking. So you'll see, and you talked about progressives taking over a lot of institutions, instead of them kind of doing a little bit of soul searching.
00:21:24
Speaker
We're just out of touch on a lot of issues. They say, oh, no, it's this grand scheme. It's them. And, you know, in parenthesis, three parentheses, right? It's them behind everything controlling things. And so I think that we've just kind of created not created, but it's just the scenario is kind of developed in the United States where this this persecution complex, this conspiratorial thinking has all kind of swelled up into a into a unified movement.
00:21:48
Speaker
you know, that's the dangerous place to be. I think I wonder partially just how much of this is due to the fact that Trump as an individual is an aberration. I mean, he's such a unique individual that really just as because of his century or century, his half a century of experience at brand building, he found a way to energize like low information voters in a way that I don't think any other politician could. But obviously, that's
00:22:14
Speaker
Already happened, and that's that's in the past, but you talk you talked about this little earlier Sheikah around how you feel like The illiberal right
Global Threats and Solutions
00:22:24
Speaker
or the authoritarian Populists are the biggest threat right now
00:22:29
Speaker
in American society, and I definitely agree with you. I don't think that same thing holds true in countries around the world based on the context that you're talking about, but I think the United States, you're completely correct. So I'd like to pivot just to a broad conversation around that threat and kind of how you see that threat materializing. What do you think the biggest
00:22:54
Speaker
Not necessarily what led to it, but why do you feel like it is the biggest threat right now over, say, other threats that other people have spent a lot of time thinking about or being concerned about? Just to back up to Jonathan's point for a second. No, I think you are right.
00:23:14
Speaker
you know, white majority groups are, you know, feeling they have had no political wins in the last many years. Actually, but the reality is it's not true, right? They have had, I mean, they've controlled, you know, the presidency.
00:23:37
Speaker
You know, for since the beginning of this century, I mean, they, you know, Bush was president for two terms. Obama was president for two terms. And, you know, so they've controlled the presidency equally in Congress. They have controlled the Congress far more than I think the Democrats are. I think that's accurate.
00:23:54
Speaker
And, you know, you mentioned Roe v. Wade. That's true. On a lot of religious liberty cases, right? They have won. And David French has been writing a lot about that. So and free speech, I mean, technically, you know, based on protection, the protections from state, free speech has never been on a more secure 100%. And so, you know, to some extent, it's a question of narrative making, right? And
00:24:23
Speaker
And, you know, again, if you look at America's history after the Revolutionary War, there was a huge backlash because just the people who stood to lose from the reconstruction effort were a powerful political force and they pretty much aborted, you know, the, you know, the reconstruction and the more equitable distribution of power to blacks.
00:24:47
Speaker
and replaced slavery with the system of Jim Crow. And so you always have kind of like whenever there is progress, there is also backlash. And I think you are seeing certain backlash from majoritarian groups in this country. I hate to say white, because it's not about whiteness to me. It is about domination. And you see it in different countries with different groups that are not white.
00:25:14
Speaker
Hindus are not wise, but they are the dominant group and they are trying to protect their dominance. So dominant group protection is to me a better term.
00:25:23
Speaker
And Josh, to your point, I mean, why is it more dangerous? I mean, it is more dangerous because I think majorities are always more dangerous than minorities are. You know, they just by virtue of their numbers, they can control cultural institutions.
00:25:45
Speaker
Yes, legacy media has got a liberal bias, but look at how the right has responded with a whole juggernaut of right-wing radio and talk show hosts whose reach is much bigger than that of legacy media. Just their sheer numbers.
00:26:05
Speaker
you know, make them just much more potent. And Daniel Ziblott, who is a Harvard professor, another political scientist, he's written quite a bit on how liberal democracy simply cannot survive without the buy-in of the right.
00:26:21
Speaker
And his point is that progressives have some progressives who are representing minority groups. To some extent, even in their excesses, most of them realize that liberalism kind of redounds to their benefit. But the right and dominant groups very rarely do. So they have to be sold
00:26:42
Speaker
on the case for liberal democracy to stick. And I think that consensus on the right has so badly unraveled in this country and other countries that I think that's kind of where the danger is.
00:26:55
Speaker
That's actually a good pivot then to another broad topic because I am just, I feel like, this is the reason why we started Project Liberal is because I see a complete transformation of the coalitions that have been commonplace in American politics for the last 10 or 20 years. The things that I took for granted growing up coming out of college, the ground is shifting beneath our feet from a perspective of who are real allies and who are not.
00:27:24
Speaker
And the reason why we started the project was because we wanted to find a way to unify people that care about liberal values and create an organization that can exert some sort of electoral influence on their behalf. And we're obviously very early into this project, but we've seen a lot of promise related to that because I think
00:27:42
Speaker
the new coalition that really forms as a reaction to illiberal populism. It has to be centered around liberalism first and foremost, and I think people intuitively understand that, and that's one of the reasons why I think we've seen so much growth so quickly. But the thing that I find interesting is I have seen people that have for decades considered themselves to be Republicans.
00:28:06
Speaker
that are out there advocating loudly and proudly to vote for somebody like Biden, who is politically, as I think all of us on this call know, from a policy perspective, very, very opposed to a lot of the things that they stand for. I mean, I think it speaks to these coalitions. I know you, I think wrote an op-ed about this in 2020, and I know you spent some time talking about it. So I'm curious as to how you're navigating the electoral realities of 2024 in light of that, and how do you think through that problem and think through that decision?
00:28:36
Speaker
It's a very good question, Josh. I mean, you know, the global authoritarian fever, it's still growing, but only one country in recent years has broken through it, and it's Poland.
Trump's Potential Authoritarianism
00:28:52
Speaker
Poland threw out the Law and Justice Party piss and replaced it with this coalition called the Sevei Coalition.
00:29:01
Speaker
And the civic coalition was essentially a coalition of all opposition parties which had united around liberal institutions.
00:29:13
Speaker
And they, you know, they buried the hatchet on their policy differences, which were enormous. And they came around this idea of, you know, that we need to defend liberalism and we need to defend liberal institutions. And they got together and they actually formed a coalition government.
00:29:34
Speaker
Now, they did it at the time this had been in power for about eight years and hadn't had the time for the kind of authoritarian consolidation that you're seeing in countries like Hungary. And which is why I think America is at a very, very critical pivotal point. And I can't tell you how much it irritates me when somebody says we are not facing existential stakes right now, because we are. I think if you have if Trump comes back, you are going to see
00:30:04
Speaker
You know a massive increase in liberalism and the diminution of liberal institutions. I mean he's already said
00:30:11
Speaker
He's going to be, you know, he's going to be a dictator. Then he qualifies it and says for a day, but who's he kidding? Right. He's got like this whole agenda of how he is going to hollow out civil service agencies and put, you know, his loyalists in place of civil servants. And don't get me wrong. I am, you know, as a skeptical of bureaucrats and civil servants as the next person.
00:30:38
Speaker
But the way he wants to do it, he doesn't want to streamline the bureaucracy and make it more rational. He just wants to go. That's right. He does not believe in the independence of, you know, agencies that are supposed to be a check on political corruption, Department of Justice, you know, what have you. He, you know, also is an economic authoritarian. Every bit, if not more than some of the, you know,
00:31:06
Speaker
economic authoritarians on the on the left. So, you know, down the line, to me, Trump is going to be a big problem and he's going to resolve all the institutions that were able to somehow keep him in check in his first term are not are not going to be, you know, that effective next time around. And you will see much more authoritarian consolidation over here in the United States, just as you've seen in Hungary and other countries.
00:31:36
Speaker
So to me, this is like a pivotal, pivotal moment. And the only way to really push back against it is, Josh, as you said, a coalition of liberal entities. And I think, just as in Poland, I think it's beginning to happen. You know, the Reagan era conservatism consisted of the three-legged stool of conservatism, like neoconservatives, failure conservative traditionalists, and then free market libertarians.
00:32:05
Speaker
I think that now he needs to yield to a liberal coalition where you get all the strains of conservatives who see the threat of this liberalism from the right and join forces with progressives who likewise are concerned about defending liberalism. The problem in the United States is unlike other countries, it's not a parliamentary system. So you can't have a coalition government and you have a duopoly.
00:32:32
Speaker
And if the Republican Party is going to collapse into this kind of authoritarianism and completely give in to Trump's whims, that really leaves only the Democratic Party as the game in town. And it's a very, very dangerous moment.
00:32:47
Speaker
Yeah. The thing that worries me about a Trump second term is when his first term, you know, when his first term happened, the people he brought on board as staff and cabinet members were traditional conservatives by and large. They were mostly your normal, dyed in the wool, mostly free market, you know, froze free speech.
00:33:05
Speaker
But the coalition that he's going to be bringing in, you know, we speak about liberal coalition proposing it, but the coalition that Trump will bring into a second term is going to be an entirely different MAGA only, America first, anti-completely anti-immigrant, anti-free trade, anti-free speech. And that's what really concerns me about Trump in a second term.
00:33:24
Speaker
Yeah. Do I think that American institutions can hold up against it? Boy, I hope so. I really hope so. But if he goes in there and says, OK, I'm going to point, you know, I'm going to do what FDR did and I'm going to stack the Supreme Court.
Biden's Political Positioning
00:33:36
Speaker
All bets are off.
00:33:37
Speaker
Not only that, but he's explicitly said he wants to bring somebody like Michael Flynn, who's literally publicly called for a coup against the government. Not only that as well, but to the point that you made earlier, he's explicitly referenced Orban as effectively the new model for American conservatism. You cannot be more loud and prominent with
00:34:01
Speaker
I mean, he's confirming everything you said, Sheikah. I mean, it's not hidden. It's very public. He's said it very publicly. And he's got large organizations like Heritage, for example, that are enabling that and are planning to enable that. And he can't do that alone. And he's going to have allies. So that's a very interesting thing. So then a question for you, Sheikah, is what actions do you think Biden should take
00:34:27
Speaker
Or maybe hazards to avoid in order to provide an off-ramp to people and the reason i ask that question is cuz we had congressman joe walsh on the show couple weeks ago. And he told he told us he said when a biden took office he should have moved to the center.
00:34:44
Speaker
And he should have been very loud that we're building a centrist liberal coalition and he kind of should have told the far left to kind of be quiet and not kick them out of the coalition, right? But make sure that they were less featured. And I think that's the biggest thing that I hear from people is like, I can't support Biden because he's got, it's that far left influence in his administration. Do you feel the same way Joe does? Do you have any thoughts for how you feel like
00:35:12
Speaker
They have to react in order to make sure they don't drop the ball to protect democracy.
00:35:22
Speaker
I actually don't see Biden as a radical. I mean, he has governed as a centrist. And I think to a very, very large extent, he has, you know, not he has not indulged the far left, right. And let me just say one thing, the far left in the Democratic Party, and this maybe will give your listeners a heart attack.
00:35:49
Speaker
is not as bad as the far right on the Republican side, right? Like, to me, AOC is not as bad as, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's just openly trucking in conspiracy theories and anti-Semitism and Islam. And speaking at events with literal Nazis that have called to exterminate non-Jews, yeah.
00:36:09
Speaker
Exactly. So there is, first of all, like no equivalence over there, right? But one of the things that I'm afraid of is if in the next Trump term, he just kind of like pulls all stops and turns into a real authoritarian, right? I don't think we are going to be able to convince our leftist friends to not respond in kind.
00:36:32
Speaker
You know, they are basically going to say if the right is not going to play by the rules of a liberal democracy and engage in kind of normal transactional politics and talk to us and, you know, and pass laws and, you know, what have you, and it's just going to get out the civil service and co-op the Department of Justice, then we are going to do the same.
00:36:52
Speaker
And to me, that's the terrifying thing. And I hope, you know, Biden is framing the next election as a fight between liberalism and authoritarianism. And I think that's the right framing. And I hope he kind of like doubles down on that and puts, you know, and shows how he's going to be committed to liberalism against this, you know, against the possible takeover by an authoritarian right.
00:37:20
Speaker
if that makes any sense. Yeah, I know it does make sense. It does make sense. I hope he does as well. There's a lot riding on those decisions. And so, yeah, I couldn't agree more.
00:37:29
Speaker
I would love to see him, hey, throw a few bones to that conservative group that he's trying to say, hey, listen, okay, I hear you. Our taxes are a bit too high. Let's figure that. Okay, let's work on the deficit. Let's work on the national debt. These are all things that you wouldn't piss anybody on the leftover if you just address some of these things. I just don't see him actually doing that. I think that the digging in and drenching is worry.
00:37:52
Speaker
To play devil's advocate on that Sheikah, you might be right behind me on this one. I'd say I have seen him hit them from the right on like the border issue and he has marked himself. The issue that I don't want them to hit them on. I don't want him to hit them on the border issue. I want open borders. Just give me that one thing like Democrat. If you're going to be a Democrat on one thing, at least be on that.
00:38:12
Speaker
Yeah, no, I get you. I get you. If you're going to be far left on anything, be far left on the border. So, you know, here is the interesting thing. I mean, Biden is essentially a liberal with illiberal tendencies, right? And Trump is just in, you know, illiberal with fascist tendencies. Yep. But, you know, Biden, at least
00:38:35
Speaker
You know, I mean, I agree with you on immigration is just the wrong issue, right? Like I feel very strongly about that. Right now, the problem is that on something like fiscal discipline, because Republicans have given up on it.
00:38:50
Speaker
Trump, in his four years, spent more than Obama did in his eight years.
Economic Policies and Liberalism
00:38:57
Speaker
Obama, the cost of the financial bailout after the meltdown was included, and in Trump's four years, the cost of the COVID bailout was not included. Trump has been just such a profligate president and so fiscally irresponsible that he's deeply shifted the overtime window on it.
00:39:17
Speaker
which both creates an opportunity for Democrats, but also one they are not going to date. They could arrest the fiscal discipline issue from conservatives and draw in some fiscal conservatives, right? But I think what they are going to do is this competitive economic populism.
00:39:33
Speaker
and give more free handouts and more redistribution and other kinds of things. So I have very little hope that Biden is going to give that to us, Jonathan. Sorry to disappoint you.
00:39:49
Speaker
I agree. It is a tragedy, but yeah, and I've already seen that. Like we're talking about that he rolled out that program for credits for buying a home, I believe. And we're talking about student loan forgiveness. Student loan, that to me was one of the most authoritarian things that Biden did and not, I mean, illiberal things because he just totally, you know, circumvented Congress and did it through executive order. And that to me was like a real low point for Biden in my world. Agreed.
00:40:15
Speaker
Okay, well, we have a couple more minutes because we want to try to get you back before your heart stop, but I do want to maybe pivot to something a little bit more hopeful or at least something that can be a little bit forward thinking. So I think we're very aligned on the current threats and I see a lot of logic behind a lot of the things you said in regards to this new liberal coalition.
00:40:36
Speaker
What do you think maybe movements like ours or other people should do? I mean, have you in your work on this, have you seen effective tactics or strategies to fight back against authoritarianism or have any just commentary on maybe a go forward for liberals and the vision that you would set for them in order to fight them?
00:40:56
Speaker
You know, it's such a hard question. I mean, I think in the so for me, there is a short term, medium term and a long term to, you know, to defeating sort of this rise of populist authoritarianism. I think in the short term, we just have to do whatever we can to defeat Trump. Right. Like he he is if he gets reelected, as we discussed, it's going to be existential. And so that's kind of like the short term. And we've got to make whatever case we need to to the American public.
00:41:26
Speaker
In the medium term, I really do think there is a problem with our electoral system that it to some extent has started incentivizing sort of the more polarizing, more extremist candidates.
Stabilizing the Liberal Order
00:41:42
Speaker
And I think we need
00:41:44
Speaker
to think about reforms, ranked choice voting, proportional representation, you know, things that we can do. I also think we need to, this is also a moment when progressive friends have suddenly woken up to the problems of overweening executive authority, right? And I think they are thinking about it much more than they have in the past, and we should
00:42:09
Speaker
work with them to fireproof the presidency as best as we can. So in fact, I'm doing, I'm working on a series, editorial series on fireproofing the presidency. So I think there may be some low hanging fruits to defend against an authoritarian president like fix the Insurrection Act, take away his emergency powers, bring back the War Powers Act. So there are lots of things that we can do. And in the long run, I think,
00:42:38
Speaker
There needs to be a cultural reset. We just have to make the case why liberalism is the political system that can help us deal with the problems of the 21st century, right? Whether it is race issues, equality issues, climate change,
00:42:55
Speaker
uh you know what have you so we've got to keep harping on the case of you know for liberalism uh you know showcasing its many accomplishments and also pointing out that life on the other side of liberalism is nasty brutish and short yep you know that's what happens
00:43:15
Speaker
I always like to say, you know, all the alternatives to liberal democracy have been tried in history, and they've all been far greater failures to liberal democracy in terms of prosperity, peace, any number of metrics that improve human lives, liberal democracy doesn't have an equal. Doesn't mean we won't come up with something better in the future, but right now, all the proposed alternatives to liberal democracy are just failed ideas from history.
00:43:43
Speaker
Yeah, and we and I actually want to touch on one more thing before we close because you mentioned this as the medium term goal. We've had a lot of conversations internally.
00:43:53
Speaker
about what the electoral strategy should be post-Trump. And, you know, let's say one of the things that we're wrestling with, and I'm curious as to how you think through this challenge, is I am on the same boat as you. I do think that like a lot of the problems we see are there a consequence of the fact that we have extremists riding, driving the boat, right? Or driving the ship, running the ship.
00:44:17
Speaker
And that's due to exactly what you said. It's due to the fact that primaries are increasingly appealing to extremists. It's due to the voting system that the first passed the post. It's due to gerrymandering. It's due to a lot of other things. But one of the things I heard that I thought was compelling was a lot of young people, we polled our audience and said, okay, if we did a big political campaign,
00:44:39
Speaker
What should we focus on? Should we focus on fixing democracy? Should we focus on maybe immigration or should we focus on affordable housing? And I heard a lot of people say, and I thought this was very interesting, that a lot of the populist stuff has to do with the fact that homes are very expensive, the cost of living is very expensive,
00:44:55
Speaker
And like, especially Gen Z and Millennials have a very difficult time starting a family because of a lot of the NIMBYs and a lot of the, I mean, the rejection of liberal markets or, you know, like in the housing market. And they were like, well, you worry about democracy, just fix the housing thing first.
00:45:13
Speaker
and fix the cost of living thing first, and then the populism will have less juice to it, and then you focus on democracy and then other things. So I'm curious, do you see that same thing? How do you think about that? Because I thought that was compelling when I heard that argument. Yeah, it's an interesting argument, right? But I mean,
00:45:35
Speaker
Again, you know, in a liberal how to back up a little fix the rising price of housing, how, you know, that's a policy conversation.
Cultural Reset and Liberal Successes
00:45:45
Speaker
Yes, both sides, both sides are going to have something to say about that. There are supply side solutions. They are demand side solutions. Right. But.
00:45:54
Speaker
You need to establish the political rules in which that conversation needs to happen, which brings you to liberalism, right? I mean, I often, you know, I hear people complaining about, you know, the loss of free speech and, you know, what have you. And I keep saying that, you know, or free enterprise is in danger. And I keep saying that, you know, you can't have free enterprise outside of a foundation of a liberal order.
00:46:22
Speaker
You need to secure the order first. You can't have economic liberty and political tyranny. I guess you can. I mean, you have it in China, but it's not a great system. It doesn't do a whole lot of people a lot of good. So you really do need to stabilize the liberal order first.
00:46:40
Speaker
before you can have these policy conversations. Otherwise, to me, these policy conversations keep getting sucked into the cultural world. Right. I mean, there are so many issues, like even something.
00:46:53
Speaker
COVID, response to COVID, which was one of the greatest health emergencies humankind has ever faced. And in previous times, outside of the culture wars, there would have been some kind of a political consensus, whether you and I agreed on it or not, right? But some kind of political consensus would have emerged because there was trust in the system, liberal institutions were working, people were talking to each other. Now, you know,
00:47:22
Speaker
everything got sucked into the culture wars. And so to me, if we are going to extricate ourselves from this sort of dynamic of polarization and culture warring, we've got to kind of somehow stabilize the liberal order first. Otherwise, none of these policy solutions are really going to stick in my view. Yeah, I think it's a very compelling case. If we don't fix how we dialogue and how we come to decisions that we have to come to decisions about,
00:47:48
Speaker
we're not gonna be able to get anything past that. We might get a few wins or losses here and there, but otherwise we don't fix the decision-making process, which is really at the core of a lot of these issues. There's only gonna be a few wins or losses here or there. And that's an incredibly difficult thing. I ran a 501c4 for a while that did work basically on advocacy for ballot access. And I tell you what, man, there's nothing that brings
00:48:11
Speaker
Republicans and Democrats together like trying to protect their power. I am glad to hear that. I am glad to hear that, you know, there are a lot of people on the left, as you mentioned, and I have seen this, especially among the young new liberals waking up to this and realizing that systems matter. And that has given me a lot of encouragement to see that, especially on the left, because that's a much bigger conversation than I think it's ever been since I paid attention to it.
00:48:36
Speaker
But okay, we're about the
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:48:38
Speaker
end. Sheikah, John, I don't know if you have any other questions. I was going to- I just want to say, we just had two back-to-back podcasts on immigration, but I want to have you back about immigration at some point in the future. That was my only final thought.
00:48:51
Speaker
Anytime, I mean, you know, that's an issue after my heart. I've been writing about it for 25 years. And so, yes, anytime. Absolutely. Absolutely. OK, well, let me let me say for the sake of our audience and she got let you take us out if you've got anything else you want to plug. But check out the unpopular start net and her and the sub stack there. There is an incredible wealth of knowledge and amazing content that's coming out on that every day. She did. Do you have anything else that you'd like our audience to check out or maybe read or learn about before you go?
00:49:19
Speaker
No, no. Well, let me just say one thing. We are planning to have a conference on liberalism for the 21st century on July 11 and 12. And the idea is to bring, you know, the Natcons, national conservatives,
00:49:35
Speaker
You know, they have their confabs every year and multiple times a year where they have like a show of strengths. They bring the who's who of every liberal strain on the right. But we don't have anything like that on the liberal side, right? And there are many liberals of many different political orientations, centrists, you know, center right, center left, who are also defending liberalism, but we don't bring them together in one place and make a case for liberalism and answer their critics.
00:50:02
Speaker
And so we are planning to do that in July. So there'll be more announcements for it forthcoming. So stay tuned.
00:50:10
Speaker
Awesome, beautiful stuff. Okay, well, Sheikah, again, thank you for your time. Thank you for everything you do and your advocacy and your work. For our audience sake, if you're curious to learn more about Project Liberal, we're a nonpartisan political pack that was dedicated to defend and advocate for the liberal values in American politics. You can join our website and get on our mailing list at projectliberal.org. If you're interested in helping contribute to the mission or the vision of the organization, you can become a member, $25 a month. That's projectliberal.org slash member. And you can follow us on Twitter at Project Liberal.
00:50:40
Speaker
I want to say thank you both again for your time. Have a wonderful week, a great Easter holiday, and I will talk to you all soon. Thanks. Thank you so much. This was a lot of fun. Good question. I agree. Great conversation.