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Extended Clip - From Roberto Baggio & Francesco Totti To Immobile & Orsolini: Italy’s Attacking Crisis (Ep. 358)
1.7k Plays2 years ago
In the last 15 years Italy have gone from Roberto Baggio and Francesco Totti to Ciro Immobile and Riccardo Orsolini as starting attacking players, so Nima Tavallaey and Carlo Garganese discuss, debate, analyze and contextualize why the Azzurri seem unable to produce another world class attacking players.
This is an extended clip from this weeks free Monday episode of The Italian Football Podcast which is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and Google podcasts.
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Transcript
The Persistence of Italy's Football Crisis
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian football podcast. Let's move on, though, from one crisis to another, to the crisis in attack. Because this crisis, we've spoken about it before, but it was so clear in this game that, I mean, Italy just didn't have anything in attack, nothing at all. And that this is a crisis that has been going on for over a decade now.
00:00:29
Speaker
probably the best part of 15 years almost, since the kind of del Piero
00:00:37
Speaker
Totti, Inzagi, Lucatani generation were in their mid-30s, they got into their mid-30s and kind of around about Euro 2008 kind of time. Since then... It has been a problem. There's been nothing, there's nothing being produced at all. I don't understand it, I don't understand it. Italy has for 67 years produced world-class goalkeepers, central defenders and strikers.
Critiquing Current Italian Attackers
00:01:05
Speaker
And now goalkeepers are fine, but central defenders and strikers, well, except for Bastoni, who else is there in central defense? Yeah, central defense, yeah. And if we look up front, it's very easy. Well, look at the current crop of attackers for this match after the Chiesa withdrawal. We had Zakani, Imobile, Politano as the starting trio.
00:01:33
Speaker
I mean, that's with all due respect, that's a conference league standard attack. It's okay. No, Europa League. Europa League. Well, Europa League at best. I mean, Conetano, I like the Napoli, but I feel that anybody that plays alongside Osseman and Kovar at Scalia is going to automatically be 50% better than they are.
00:01:48
Speaker
And that's how I feel with Politana. And I like the guy. I enjoy watching him. He's got a bit of pace, he's nippy, but his level is raised massively by playing next to two phenomenal. Of course. And we saw that, I mean, he was terrible in this game. And then you look at the others in the squad, we've got Retegui, Raspadori, Nianto, Zaniolo, and now Orcelini has now been called up to replace Politana. Now, who do these players play for?
00:02:11
Speaker
None of these players play for big teams. And when I say big teams, I mean elite teams. I mean, Lazu and Napoli, you'll get some. But Lazu and Napoli are big teams. They're not elite teams. You know, Genoa are Genoa. Genoa are training champions. But other than Napoli, it's Genoa leads a championship team. Genoa leads a championship team. We've got a player from the championship playing for us. And again, I like you until I believe in his potential, if he can have the right development. Now, then we have a player that's Galatazzaro slash Aston Villa. We have a player at Bologna.
00:02:41
Speaker
Well, barely. Or Salini doesn't even start for Bologna. He's not even a starter for Bologna. He's back up. He's back up right winger since Undoy and the other guy, the Swedish lad came in. Karlsson came in. He doesn't say he doesn't even start for, he's not even a starter for Bologna right now. He's been called up and according to the latest reports,
00:03:05
Speaker
may start against in a muscle in Ukraine game. Now this is the level of crisis, you know, then the other alternatives, we're looking at Griefo, who's played a lot in the last year or so, who plays for Freiburg. Even Schkemaka, who we all want to play and who we both believe is, you know, got the biggest potential of everyone. He plays for Atalanta. Again, these are not elite teams. And this says it all, because if your attackers are playing for this team, that tells you how big the problem is. And
Struggles and Shifts in Italian Football
00:03:33
Speaker
You know, this is like I said, this has been going on for 15 years, the crop from the last 10 to 15 years, you can go through all of them. I mean, look at look at you in 2016, we had Edea and Pele. Let's see an Opelle playing as our front choice attack. That was all down. I mean, that was just down to a miracle from Antonio Conte.
00:03:50
Speaker
I will never I will die on this hill that is his greatest managerial feat to get that team as far as he did and to beat Spain the way they did it was unbelievable but then look at look at us the World Cup 2018 playoff to qualify against Sweden Manolo Gabi Adini was our starting striker for that
00:04:10
Speaker
The World Cup that we just failed to qualify last year in the playoff. Who comes on? Who did we bring on as a substitute to try and rescue the game? Zhao Pedro from Caliari. In your 30s. Yeah, like 30 or 31 years old coming on. I mean, this is a crisis. Let that sink in. Yeah, exactly. This is not hyperbolic to call it a 15-year-old crisis. That's what it is. It is a 15-year-old crisis.
00:04:39
Speaker
It has been going on for long. Okay, the 90s were ridiculous. The lowercase players were Dicagno and
00:04:57
Speaker
Del Vecchio would be a superstar in this team. Del Vecchio would be a star. To put it into perspective, this is insane.
00:05:21
Speaker
I don't understand what's going on because it's been so long now. It has been far too long. It can't be put down to just a bad sickness. No, no, no. It's been 15 years. Because there's always ebbs and flows with Eddie Nation. Yes, but it's been more than a decade, Carlo. More than a decade. But it has been 15 years because, you know, like I said, those players I mentioned at the start, like in Zagin del Piero, they played until their mid-, they were still pretty good until their mid-,
00:05:46
Speaker
30s. So they kind of still hung around, didn't they? You know, until Dean Atale was still really good. Dean Atale was unbelievable. And he bloomed in his 30s. But again, that was just a, you know, he belonged to that kind of older generation, didn't he? Yeah. But
00:06:05
Speaker
This is not good enough. And I look at the under 19, under 21s. It's the same problem. Yeah. There's no, there's no, there's no one. We're not producing anyone. Those, those teams don't have any, any attackers either. Um, you know. Jesus. That's depressing.
00:06:22
Speaker
No, I mean, the under 21s, the reason they went out, I mean, I even predicted it before. Italy was the last one. It's probably the last time quality, but there were other issues. Did you watch under 21s draw 0-0 against Latvia? They drew 0-0. They couldn't even break down Latvia the day before on Friday. First qualifier of the new under 21 team. They drew 0-0 at Latvia.
00:06:48
Speaker
exactly the same problem. Nothing can attack. Couldn't, you know, Latvia put 10 men behind the ball. Our attack couldn't, we couldn't break them down at all. And it's the same problem. So this is endemic. And, you know, what is the cause of it? I mean, you know, I guess part of it is a wider problem of talent production, which we'll come on to. There's a separate segment I want to talk about. But I think changes to the game have hindered us. I think the number 10 disappearing has definitely
00:07:17
Speaker
been affected. The classic number 10, you no longer can have the tracortista slash fantasista jogging around.
00:07:26
Speaker
the pitch. It's a faster game, more athletic, and then that doesn't necessarily suit it. Also, the death of the penalty box striker as well. That's another position that has died, the kind of Pippo Inzagi, Ged, Muller, Gary Lineker kind of striker. Yeah, Fox in the box. Fox in the box. Yeah, exactly. Now, that has disappeared, and the number nine now needs to be able to
00:07:51
Speaker
you know, be more all rounded and be able to play. But the thing is, it's not just an Italian problem. We do have a crisis in number nine, top number nines in world football in a way that I can't remember ever in my lifetime. I mean, aside from Harry Kane, Erling Hall and Roberto Lewandowski. I see man. I see man. Like what are we talking about? Most of the best number nines are all in their 30s, aren't they? Dirty waiver.
00:08:14
Speaker
There's very few in their twenties. How many top number nines in your twenties can you name? I think that is the effect.
00:08:25
Speaker
direct effect of the tikitaka explosion, the false none. To an extent, yeah. I think it's that and the fact that we don't create specialist footballers anymore. There's no, we don't get specialist positions anymore. It's all, everyone has to be complete. God, I can't wait for this era to be over, the Guardiola era to die and literally I will come, I will be the guy with the, you know that jiff of the dancing. We don't want to do that anymore. The guys from the Ghana,
00:08:51
Speaker
who bury some, are dancing when they bury the guy. Like, that's me burying Tiki Taka. It has been the most depressing era in football ever, where football is this, like, ridiculous, you know, abstract art form, and everyone's supposed to be good at everything, and you end up having no specialists anymore, and no one's really good at anything. It's just, oh, I can't stand it. Yeah, tight with footballers, isn't it?
00:09:15
Speaker
It's getting worse then. We've now got inverted fullbacks as well. Vomit. Vomit. No, I think that's affected because I think that, and I've said this before, I think that one of the reasons that Italy was so successful for so long is number one, we always had the best defences and the fence is dead now also because of...
00:09:35
Speaker
changes. So you're not allowed to defend anymore. Yeah, you're not allowed rules don't let you defend anymore, the offside rule, the everything, you know, so that that affects us. But also, because we were smarter, Italians, the way that we still have the best managers, because, because we are the best thinkers of in the game. And but
Historical Strengths vs. Current Challenges
00:09:53
Speaker
on the football pitch as well, we were the best, we were the smartest, you know, the football, the being able to get away with little things here and there. But also,
00:10:01
Speaker
you know, if you want to translate that into forwards, kind of forwards being smart. And you know, that includes penalty box strikers and number 10 penalty box strikers, you know, in Zaki, in Zaki was a genius. I, I insist he's one of the, I say that he was not a good footballer or idiots. No, in Zaki, in Zaki for me is one of the most intelligent footballers in football. He was so smart. I'd probably have a top five pattern of like his movement pattern, his timing, knowing when to do what it was,
00:10:29
Speaker
Yeah, his read of the game, his anticipation, his everything. So those kind of players, you know, those kind of players have died. And even someone like Imobile, as much as we criticise him, like if he was around 30 years ago, it would be much better than... As I've said, this part and others, when I've done deep dives on Imobile, I think he's unlucky. He was born in the wrong era.
00:10:53
Speaker
If you'd been born in an era before that, you'd have much more respect. Football's changed. The number nine that he is is not where football is right now. So I do think there is a huge element of that.
00:11:07
Speaker
No, there is a problem. And I think that Spoletti needs to do what he does when he comes in. He needs to just basically phase out people. He needs to this immobile being captain nonsense needs to stop. He needs to build around Scamata. To be fair to Spoletti, he did come out and say that, you know, the
00:11:25
Speaker
tradition of the most cap player automatically be in the captain is needs to change it should just be the one that's music to my he did say that to be fair so fair play again like i said on friday is out of his hands so i don't blame him for that but it is yeah but this means this is good that he comes out and says that that means he's going to change that means
00:11:45
Speaker
Well, if he's got the power to, I don't know. He said it was out of his hands. It wasn't his position to make. So but, you know, I think that I think that there's these changes to the game have affected.
Infrastructure and Development: Italy vs. England
00:11:55
Speaker
And I think obviously the lack of infrastructure, the Italian football, everything that we criticize about how badly it's mismanaged from top to bottom, you know, that affects the talent pool. You know, if the club game is run badly, then that has a knock on effect. One of the reasons why England we're going to talk about
00:12:12
Speaker
about the number of lack of Italians that are playing in Serie A in a minute. But one of the things about England, about the Premier League, is that even though their numbers are pretty similar to Italy in terms of the number of English players playing in the Premier League, they're producing much better players, much more and far more youngsters in England because the infrastructure, the academies,
00:12:36
Speaker
everything from top to bottom, you know, the nutrition, the best doctors, the stadiums, everything, you know, the training grounds, everything is allowing these players to develop and develop into better players. And obviously that, I mean, you speak to anyone, I remember reading an interview from Fabio Cannavaro because he's coached outside of Italy. He said that, you know, I would never would have realized this if I hadn't coached outside of Italy, but the infrastructure
00:13:06
Speaker
in Italy for producing and developing players and training players compared to what he's seen, even in China, which is not a footballing country. He says it's just Italy's light years behind. And that, I think, obviously, is an issue in producing players. And obviously, the attacker is a certain type of player. Why it's only attackers we're not producing while we're producing not some infielders, I mean,
00:13:35
Speaker
I don't have the exact answer to that, but I think that... It's a combination of everything you've met, I think. I think it's a combination of all of the above. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.