Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to the People's Shoots Podcast. My name is James Sieber and today we're going to be joined by a friend of the show. I think we've had this guy on at least three times, potentially more, but not for nearly a year. So today we're going to be joined by Ben Burgess, going through some of the topics, including his awesome run at Worlds, which we have spoken about, but really going into the knock on effects from there, including his sponsorship with Normal, the expectation and the pressure, the attention that all that brings.
Speaker: the patience he's had to go through this year. We're trying to find the level of form and a few setbacks along the way. And then ultimately we've just come off the back of Transcend 40K where Ben's put a performance that in his own words was a bit of a relief and it was ah good to see Ben back to his form with a big smile on his face and crossing the finish line first.
Speaker: So with that, let's get to the podcast with Ben Burgess. Ben, welcome to the show. Oh man, it is so good to be back. We are so back.
Speaker: I feel like that has got to be the most overused term now in trail running. I still love it, but it's just, it's everywhere. i know. And I always say it um while touching wood.
Speaker: Yeah. Yes. I think it's if you just just say it all the time, then you can just constantly come back, but hopefully there isn't and a setback. You just keep going back to a higher level.
Speaker: Totally. And i I truly hope that I am back, but I've said it before and i haven't been. And after Transcend, I sent you message and said, essentially, that was epic. And you said, we are so tentatively back, which I think is iss pretty apt for just running in general, because you never really you know what's going to come around the corner for you.
Speaker: Absolutely not. The trials and tribulations. So as everyone everyone would have heard in the intro, we've you and I have been chatting a bit about a few topics, stuff that they' kind of gone through in the last, I guess, Wells was nearly 11 months ago now or so. And i thought it was a good time to bring you back on and just sort of bring those conversations to the public. I think it's going to be really interesting for everyone to get a bit of an insight into what it's like going from essentially somebody on a working holiday or not working a holiday for a year getting an incredible performance at worlds and then yeah all the all the highs and the lows that can come after something like that so let's take everyone back to world champs now we're nearly a year away when you look when you look back at worlds what what's the highlights like what really stands out from that performance and and the training leading up to it
Speaker: The performance itself was the kind of piece de resistance, but everything else around it was um the culmination of one of the best experiences of my life. You know, being able to represent my country in a fashion I felt very proud of um and being able to share that journey with so many other Australians, so many talented people,
Speaker: i I often train a alone. i still love running in the mountains by myself. I think that's where I find so much joy, but being able to create a team atmosphere and not only the Australian team, but be amongst so many other athletes from so many other walks of life and coming together under the guise of just loving to be outdoors and compete and play on technical terrain.
Speaker: ah Yeah, it was a dream come true. It was one of the greatest days of my life and i i don't think I can undersell it. It truly was phenomenal. That was your first time putting on a national shirt as well, wasn't it? Yeah. that was i feel like after something like that, it can be easy to be like, oh, I've i've achieved the goals or and struggled to find that next motivation. Was getting on Australian team something that you were really striving for? and And was it hard to kind of go past that? Or are the goals a lot bigger than just making one team? ah
Speaker: Good question. I still think representing your country is the pinnacle of the sport for me personally. I would be more than happy to have had that opportunity and and not be able to get there again, but I'm going to work my absolute ass off to make sure that I'm putting myself in the position the best position to make teams in future.
Speaker: I just think there is nothing cooler and ah the world championships are becoming more and more important and potent for people in the sport.
Speaker: I don't necessarily UTMB as iconic a thing as others do. I've never really had that perception of it. I love it as a spectator, but um I still think...
Speaker: the circus of it all doesn't appeal to me in the way that something smaller and, and I'm struggling to find the words for it Um, smaller and more contained feels to me.
Speaker: It is an interesting one. Obviously, we're coming're recording this Tuesday after UTMB has happened. And as a spectator, it looks it's incredible to watch. like The live stream quality was so high. you could see all the moves. We saw some incredible racing. And everyone that does it, we just had Matt Dunn on for the main show. And he was saying it's something that everyone should do once.
Speaker: But he also said that now he's done it he's had two dnfs and then he's completed utmb he has no intention of going back and i don't feel like people would say that about worlds especially now and the and the iteration that it is is that like now that it's starting to matter at least my perception it's starting to matter a lot more we're seeing everyone go there like fred transha wins worlds wins occ jim wamsley wins worlds like it's getting the best people that to me that stands out as having a bit more permanence in the sport. Like we'll probably remember that, especially in five years or when you look back on it and go, yeah, I wore the green and gold and that's what I remember, not my OCC race or CCC, whatever it is it's to that same degree.
Speaker: least said And the difference so difference the difference to me also is that UTMB takes place in the same location every year. Although we see the courses change slightly, um the course remains much the same And I didn't get into this sport to go back to the same places every year. I got into this sport so I could explore and experience a range of different places all throughout the world. So I think that's why the World Champs appeals to me. it is that changing of location, that experience of culture.
Speaker: um And, you know, we're getting that year upon year in such vastly different places. Yeah. So post worlds, before we jumped on, i said the kind of main, main theme that comes to mind when I think about you post worlds is this expectation. And then you sort of elaborated more as the, also the attention that that brings you got trail runner of the year for over here and.
Speaker: there's definitely been more eyeballs on you. I think going into Worlds, we we all knew your potential. Your run at KMR was incredible. for We don't really have any context for it, but your run at Grand Raid last year, especially on that terrain, was very impressive.
Speaker: And at least from a scoring perspective, it was your highest score. But it there still wasn't necessarily the expectation you were going to be a high scorer. And then you knock it out of the park. What's what's the come down like after that and and those initial few months? It's pretty severe and i had a lot of motivation to get me to a ah race like Worlds. And then once I felt like I'd proved something and lacked something to prove, then where did I go from there? You know, I i came back to Australia and um i didn't have that dog in me anymore. You know, I i've really, had a really...
Speaker: I find it easier to prove people wrong than to prove them right, I think. um I like being that underdog. I like coming in as a bit of an unknown and and being able to play and it feels like whatever I achieve is a bonus.
Speaker: ah But then all of a sudden when people are choosing me to win or picking me as a favorite, that's when I kind of falter and start to overthink the process and it becomes a little less enjoyable because...
Speaker: The competitive side of the sport isn't what I thrive on the most. It's literally just being a part of it and being outdoors. And I'm really having to learn how to race and be in competitive fields. did Do you feel like with Wells, knowing the fact that you're breaking the top 50, which is what you did coming 49th, like that was sort of best case scenario really. Whereas over here, best case scenario is you win.
Speaker: And so every time you turn up to a start line, there's that external and internal pressure to like, that is that is the outcome that were that we're all chasing. Do you feel like because Worlds, it was just a case of get me to the finish line as fast as possible. And I know that there's no top 10, top three environment like that actually allowed you to get that best performance out?
Speaker: Absolutely. Yeah, i was I was just out there having a a great enjoyable time and when you're sitting in between 60th and 50th position, the movement doesn't mean as much as if you're in that one to five spot.
Speaker: ah So yeah, it didn't it didn't feel competitive as much as it just felt like a really awesome day in the mountains and I was just trying to move as efficiently as I possibly could. um Obviously, when there's attrition and you start gobbling people up, that's when you start to think about placing.
Speaker: But it's not like I was battling for, you know, first, second, third. It was just trying to be out there and enjoy the opportunity. And, i you know, it's it's no secret that that's when I have my best days.
Speaker: I've seen quite a few photos of you with some of the, I'll call them celebrities of the sport, they the main names. Were there any conversations you had with anybody over there that has stuck with you or hadt had any lingering effect?
Speaker: I don't think I managed to get deep with with anyone yeah ah in that respect. But being able to share some time with um with the American team at our accommodation was was just really cool. I think it it humanized everyone at the end of the day.
Speaker: all of these people are human, whether they're getting paid, whether they're not, whether they're representing their country or otherwise, ah we we tend to build the american contingent up and i think that's because the american media does a really good job of popularizing their people but at a human level we're all just out there trying to have a good day and and compete to the best of the best of our ability so i think if anything i the greatest takeaway was just we're all human we're all trying to get it done and we're all in it for the love of the sport
Speaker: At the same time that you come home, when did the conversations with normal who is now your sponsor start up? So I'd actually been in contact with normal pre worlds. Um, i picked up a pair of shoes in Barcelona. Uh, they were the share ag ones and I took them up to do a course recce in the Pyrenees with Kel and Our initial conversations were more just based on um what my thoughts and feelings were on the gear. Was it, you know, did the shoe fit?
Speaker: How did it feel? And the ball kind of kept rolling until I landed back in Oz and then I was on the ground having um coffee catch-ups with the then manager of Normal who was doing the rollout in Australia.
Speaker: And yeah we were just having discussions about what what I thought of the brand. um Did I enjoy the gear? What did not like, what didn't I like and how it was going to be received by the general public.
Speaker: And so that's where everything began. And then by March, we started having conversations about what it would be like to come on board as an athlete and help support them as shoes hit the shelves and how we would, um, bring the the brand to the community.
Speaker: And I find it interesting that at the same time, you're noticing that you don't have that dog in you anymore. That fight isn't there. You're kind of being juxtaposed with conversations with a brand for the first time. And sort of, I think this thing that whether we all want to o admit it or not, people that are at the front end of the sport, like getting sponsored is a sign of recognition of support that somebody else believes in you and wants to be part of your journey and thinks that you're going to represent them well.
Speaker: Was it a weird time to be in? kind of where you You know that this is maybe starting to to blossom into a potential sponsorship, but then also you're not really sure where that motivation is. From the get-go, I made it really clear to normal that I didn't want this partnership to be so solely focused on being an athlete and the capacity for me to get results um that looked really sexy because I'm completely understanding the fact that athletes have rollercoaster careers and there's ups and downs and I never wanted to feel guilty for being injured or not showing up.
Speaker: And the thing I love most about normal is as much as they're brand that creates really wonderful gear, performance gear.
Speaker: They also at their core are activists who really care about the environment. So I wanted to make sure that that was a big part of our partnership was my capacity to be involved on the environmental front and advocate for nature in a really positive way.
Speaker: Now that you have got to the point where you've got a sponsorship with Normal, you are very closely connected to the brand. I've seen you doing, i think, some wear tests with them. does it feel like is he Does it feel easy being a part of the brand? like Does it feel like there's any guilt for you choosing not to race or any any pressure to do certain things? Or does it feel like it is the right fit?
Speaker: It does feel like the the perfect fit, but I i don't know if in saying that I haven't felt the pressure. yeah And that's not a pressure that anyone from the brand has put on me. I'm able to choose my own calendars. There's no performance bonuses, so there's no pressure in that respect.
Speaker: But... Inevitably, you want to show up for the people that support you. And I think that pressure doesn't only come from the brand, but also the expectations from others once you reach a certain point.
Speaker: ah So, yeah, I think the fact that the beginning of my year when you when I picked up sponsorship with Normal and was also... oh starting to wear this beautiful kit and looking like a threat and then showing up in a very unthreatening way.
Speaker: false um Yeah, it rattled me. i've yeah you know wanted to I wanted to take that next step, um but I wasn't willing to do it incrementally. I just wanted to be like pro level athlete straight away. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. yeah it's it's it's very tricky and it's something that i find myself repeating so often with running that nothing happens fast and when it seems like it happens fast it's because there's years of happening slow so that it can happen fast and and i can imagine when you add that level of intern like to internal expectation of, I want to show up for this brand and, and, um, reciprocate the support they've shown in me. And you've had the results like you've had having essentially a bad patch or a period where you're building and not performing is a really tricky thing.
Speaker: When you came off worlds, one of the things that I definitely noticed and we've weve spoken about is you had quite a long period where you. Didn't train like you were, you were running, but you weren't training with any, any focus or, so or structure.
Speaker: And I know building back up was tricky from there. So what was the intention behind that time off? And how how did you find yourself getting getting back to the point where, okay, I've i've got a bit of a a reason. I've got a bit of a fight. of That dog is starting to build back up inside of me. After Worlds, I just needed some some serious breathing room away from the sport. I...
Speaker: I was physically fatigued, but probably more mentally so. And I'd been so caught up in the training side of things that I hadn't been showing up in my life in any other way than being an athlete.
Speaker: ah So it was really nice to come back and just focus on being a good partner and being a good friend and catching up with people and not worrying so deeply about the fitness.
Speaker: I will say that I assumed that once I decided to ask for that fitness back, that it would be there. And I was rudely proved that it it wasn't as easy as that.
Speaker: ah There's been a lot of changes to my body since Worlds that I've had to kind of come to terms with. for the first time. And I'm not sure if that's just things catching up with me. I don't know if that's just, uh, getting over that 30 years hump and all of a sudden I'm declining. But I think that's just the reality of being a human is sometimes your body does things that are inexplainable and nonsensical and,
Speaker: You can either panic and freak out and worry about it, or you can just accept that that's the new you and try your best to continue forward with this new version of yourself.
Speaker: Can you elaborate on some of the the changes that you've noticed as you've become an old man? I used to recover beautifully off crazy things. You know, there was a point not that long ago in 2024 when I thought running race before three weeks before was the best thing to do and And now my body could in no way, shape or form handle that.
Speaker: I think my my capacity to recover has really suffered. My ah gut has changed significantly this year. I, you know, eating through ultras was never a problem for me. In in fact, it was a superpower. Yeah.
Speaker: And now I've had GI distress in like 80% of the races I've done this year. So that has also been a factor. ah Just things to consider that in the past I haven't had to worry about.
Speaker: Yeah, okay. It's the very front of mind just because of the conversation i had last night with Matt Dunn for the main show and he was talking about the emphasis he has to put on recovery to be able to do the training that he does. But also he's gone through this whole journey with a naturopath and essentially realized that his gut was in shambles and couldn't get through UTMB two years in a row because his gut turned and and now has changed all of that and it is in a better place. But it does it just point to the fact that we're constantly...
Speaker: evolving as people, as as as beings. And unfortunately, it's never quite as straightforward as we hope it's going to be, which is a very frustrating thing to come to terms with, but also essential to be able to move forward.
Speaker: Absolutely. Yeah, I didn't get into running to think about eating. That's definitely not why I'm here. But unfortunately, it's it's part of the journey. And ah particularly if you want to be competitive and race and race at length, these are the things that you have to get right.
Speaker: ah Because I have won and lost races on my capacity to eat and hold food. And there's and nothing worse than being overtaken by the people who are just eating better than you are.
Speaker: What were talking there and and ah how the body was responding. It also got me thinking about last year, whilst you were in Europe, the training that you were doing, the terrain that you were on versus them being back in Australia.
Speaker: Was there a challenge with getting used to training in Australia again and how your body responded and recovered to to that? Absolutely. i don't know if it was the recovery that suffered, but just my enjoyment and excitement for running in the places I've run in for the last five to 10 years has completely waned.
Speaker: ah When you're over in Europe doing 120 to 150 kilometer weeks, you don't even think about the mileage because you're just chomping at the bit to get up and out into those mountains.
Speaker: And I also obviously had a lot more time to recover. from those days, given that I wasn't working, but just mentally I was so much more stimulated. And when I came back to Oz, I was finding it really hard and arduous to drag my feet out the door and go and run on the same stretch of trail that I've run, you know, ever since I've been living in Melbourne.
Speaker: Uh, it's just a different game. Is there anything that you've been able to do to reinvigorate that training passion while still living in Melbourne? get out of Melbourne.
Speaker: yeah I thought it all was coming. Unfortunately, no, there's, there's not a lot that I've really been successfully able to do apart from just share those miles with other people.
Speaker: Uh, unfortunately our training group has taken a massive hit this year. We started the year with so many awesome athletes and we were doing all of our sessions together and slowly, but surely we've seen people drop off, um, to move to other places or through injury. um,
Speaker: There's not many of us left, ah but I do really appreciate those people that I get to train with because without them, I don't know how I'd get out the door some days. It's an interesting conversation actually because um as you're speaking I'm going well for Ben to be Ben's best self are you going to have to move?
Speaker: And it just just like there is to me if you're a roadrunner great Melbourne's awesome but the Dandenongs aren't going to get you the strength that you need for mountain ultras. It's just it's going to be way too hard and then you've got to think okay well if I want to drive up to Bright that's a three three and a half hour one way expensive place to go and stay. so Yeah. do Do you feel like for you, if you're given the fact that you have normal behind you, you have this ability that we've seen now, the next step is going to be put yourself somewhere that does work better for training.
Speaker: That's where it's trending. I think yeah it's easier said than done. Like I have a ah really solid base here. All my people are close by in Melbourne, but having just gone up and spent three weeks in Bright and doing a little training camp,
Speaker: i basically just restarted and opened and a brand new chapter on my running. It was really the thing that I needed to re-motivate myself and reset.
Speaker: So I think that's where we're heading. ah But having said that, you know, when I knew that I was going to be in Melbourne, I just, I trained for different races. Uh, I didn't really put anything in that first six months of my year race wise that was technical or too steep and mountainous. Uh, and that's, that felt like the the living in Melbourne dictated my calendar to begin with.
Speaker: Did that make it hard for you to show up motivated to push, push yourself for those events? Cause my interpretation would be, that's not what your preferred option would be from a race perspective.
Speaker: Yeah, it's it's not my style, ah the flattest stuff. i I also just, I knew that I wasn't ah competitive enough in that space and I tried really hard in that six months to make it my thing. But I think I would just need such a bigger runway to get to that level.
Speaker: And I didn't enjoy the training enough to want to make it a ah bigger feature in my year. So yeah. Back to the technical stuff, back to the sloggy stuff, back to the stuff that no one wants to do.
Speaker: ah Back to the stuff that you like and you're good at as well, though. And as we're seeing, like with Worlds that was in Cane Frank and as it's going to be in Cape Town, it's very unlikely that the Worlds course is going to be like a two base, even like a Buffalo Marathon. It's going to be more technical. It's going to have more elevation change. Potentially, it's at altitude.
Speaker: So don't know. To me, it makes a a good sense of following what you're passionate about. Absolutely. I think it it just directs me more overseas yeah because there isn't a great deal of technical mountain running to be done in Australia. Not to say there's none and there's a bunch of races that I've done and have absolutely loved and enjoyed.
Speaker: But when I look at the the stuff that I'm really enthusiastic and insideted to excited to get stuck into, it looks a lot more like sky running. Yep.
Speaker: As a quick aside, which events would you say best fit that over in Australia for you? I've never run Diverge, but Diverge just aesthetically looks so appealing to me. Um,
Speaker: KMR, I think, suits the bill just in terms of how much vertical and technical it packs for a relatively short distance. What else have I done? i used to absolutely love GSER when it was a little bit more rough and rugged and and took us out to some more of those secluded spots over the Twins. And I never ran the miler, but i think I think I just want to be spending time out in wild places. Westmax is another one of those. I think it's that is...
Speaker: probably my favorite race experience I've had in Australia, if not the world. So there's no shortage of of great stuff we have on our doorstep. um I just think they're not necessarily the races that are going to pull the most amount of people because it does scare a significant portion of the community off. It does.
Speaker: That said, obviously, KMRF national champs next year, which I think is gaining a lot more attention than we've seen it have in the past, a lot more relevance in the calendar. But it it also sounds like potentially Tasmania is a a good fit for you in the rugged terrain. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. yeah i've been in conversations with billy and toby about what it's you know what it's going to take to get us all down there um i think i'm the last piece of the puzzle but who knows i've been talking about moving down to tassie for 15 years now and i'm still here that would be quite a training group you billy toby who billy guys toby sparks Yeah, Piotr.
Speaker: Yeah. Yes. Maggie Lennox. God, I mean, you know, the list is endless. It'd be such a cool crew and just having that kind of steep terrain on the doorstep and a hundred different adventures within three hours driving.
Speaker: um Yeah, it's an absolute paradise. It just does take you further and further away from family, friends, and it does add an extra flight to pretty much anywhere. It does. It's very much, so there's not there's not a perfect solution here, but yeah, I do, especially the Hobart area. I feel like that is a pretty, if you're a more technically orientated runner, a pretty perfect training environment, depending on how you like the cold and winter.
Speaker: Maybe the only caveat. don't Don't mind the cold. It's just about dragging my my partner who is born and raised in Darwin down there. Yes, that's a little bit different.
Speaker: Good luck with that one. Okay. Bring us back to, to, to this year. So you've spoken about choosing races that suit more the train to Melbourne and just looking at what you've done and fill in any gaps that might not be an intro here. We had bullet sky run where you took out the win, uh, in December.
Speaker: Then you went to do the trail run Australia, the snowies, which was the national short trail champs where he had fifth. You then went to Warburton Trail Festival can did the 27K Redwoods Rush where you took second. And I feel like, and please elaborate when we get to it, that that was a bit of a step forward for you at that race, at least just the emotional aspect of of enjoying it.
Speaker: And then I think the next time we saw you was UTA, which you got it done, but it was a hard day. Is there anything in that buildup towards UTA that you feel like is is relevant and has sort of made ah an impact on where you are now?
Speaker: I think having such a tragically awful day at UTA is kind of, you know, I've really had to have like the worst day possible to finally reassess and go like, all right, things things need to change because there were glimmers of hope in those in a few of those races. But for the most part, um I just felt like irrespective of the result and irrespective of the the statistics,
Speaker: I just, I wasn't running to my capabilities and I wasn't enjoying the process as much as i have in the past. And there were a bunch of things that I could have identified at that point and started to make changes for, but I think I was feeling a bit bullish about the whole thing and and just hoping that things would get better instead of taking action.
Speaker: And everything just kind of came to a head at UTA and I didn't really start that race standing on the start line with any confidence whatsoever. i was three rows back and i I could just tell from my body language that i I had lost a race before I even started it. And um yeah, just had to spend about 70 Ks trudging through that course, trying to remember what it is that I love about this sport and hoping that I would hang in there long enough to figure it out.
Speaker: I feel like it's a pretty ah it's a very tough way to have that realization, but if there's ever a spot to do it when you've been stripped back to your bare bones, it's probably a good spot to be bit reflective. Yeah. I don't even know if I figured it out in that moment.
Speaker: i just I was looking for any any saving grace in that race to you know walk away from that experience with any sort of positive. and ah The only positive that I really took from it was being able to complete the distance and being able to have that experience with my family and hug them at the end of their race uh yeah sometimes you've got to go completely to the well in order to bring yourself back out what was the incentive for you to start uta if you already felt like you essentially weren't in the shape to be at the level you wanted to be at i just put so much emphasis on it in the calendar um
Speaker: UTA is a weird one because id I'd never really wanted to go there as a race and irrespective of the accolades that I'd had previously, it felt to me like no one could ever validate them without me going to UTA and having a good day and proving myself in that space.
Speaker: Um, you know it was It always felt like, oh, yeah, you had a good run at GPT, but like go to UTA and like then we'll have more proof. And I think after the world's performance, having had proved that I could hang with some of the best, I wanted to have more proof.
Speaker: ah But this time i felt like I wasn't proving it to myself. I was trying to prove it to others. And I put a lot of, I tried so hard to make that race delicious and delectable and something that I wanted to gobble up. But despite going out there and, you know, spending a week wrecking the course and seeing the whole thing, I just like, I couldn't get myself to love it. And I tried to fake it and then just got completely exposed on the day.
Speaker: How do you feel like you're going to balance that going forward then? Because you are at a level of the sport where there is an expectation, whether it's from podcasters looking at you or from yourself to show up and compete at the more competitive races.
Speaker: And inevitably that is going to be a challenge of maybe that course doesn't speak to you deeply, but it's just sort of where you'd need to go if you want to take that path in trail running.
Speaker: which is typically the path that someone who is sponsored and someone who's who's competitive, like incredibly competitive domestically and could be internationally needs to go But you feel yourself pulled towards those more sky running, which obviously has its own competitive nature, but you have to go internationally. It's like, where do you feel that's going to leave you domestically to race?
Speaker: I think in a space where I just need to trust trust my gut. if If the results are the the shiny thing that are meaningful to anyone. I'm only going to be able to achieve those things if I'm out there enjoying the process.
Speaker: um My best day this year was on a 7K course with 20 competitors. yeah like And I'm not even kidding. like I had probably the best performance of my life and there were no...
Speaker: there's no video evidence, there's no results online, but like I finally just had the breathing space and the desire to show up in a, in a meaningful way at a race that I really wanted to do well at. And I went in there relaxed and yeah, the result speaks for itself.
Speaker: Um, I think I'll tell you what's the most marketable thing is someone who's out there being happy, enjoyable, loving the process and getting the results. There's nothing sexy about a dude finishing ninety fourth at UTA.
Speaker: ah like You were 79th in the men's field. It's not as bad as 94. Is that what it was? Yeah, it was. You're right. ah Gutting out an 80th place performance isn't going to exactly do much. for and It could get people invested in you as a person, but it's not going to put you on the podiums of of racism and in in the limelight.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think people respect the person who's willing to finish despite the odds. um You know, that was one small part of staying out there was just, I think back to the Adam Petermans Western States and, you know, just gutting out these finishes that are so far away from what they're capable of. And that, that is the kind of athlete that I really admire because,
Speaker: The ultra, you know, we speak about ultras as a race, but the ultra is just life and a sport. It's like dealing with the ebbs and the flows. And I've been lucky enough to show up to so many of my races and have at bare minimum a good day that, you know, just having one is one rough day is totally okay. And I'm fine with it. It just stings when it's at the one you put the most emphasis on.
Speaker: Yeah. And it's also at a distance in which, as you said, you don't just recover in a week anymore. It it takes up a big part of your season pre and post. ah Yeah. And particularly when you didn't eat for the majority of the rest.
Speaker: Yeah. I've never put myself in that bigger a hole before. interesting was it quite a long recovery off the back of it yeah it was probably the first time that i ever worried about my body and injury um i never got anything diagnosed um but running had never felt so painful and concerning after that took me probably a good month until i felt confident and like running was an enjoyable movement wow that's quite an impact for it to have have left on you
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I didn't help myself either. Like i I think I had such a rough day out there that all I wanted to do was find my spark again. And I went out to help out of the GPT camp and did some pretty long days, not at any effort, but my body was still deep in recovery. And I, you know, I was recharging those moral batteries, but doing an absolute disservice to my body. Um,
Speaker: So it is just the constant balancing act of the joy and the chase the movement and all of those things. You mentioned that it was around March when normal became official or the sort the conversation started becoming a bit more official that this was something that was going to go forward. Can you take us into that? Cause I found it very interesting when you made the announcement that it was normal. Cause that's a brand that has no, they had a very small footprint in Australia, no athletes. So i'm very curious as to why they felt like it was the right time for them, why they felt like you were the right person and what that process was like going through. Yeah, I'll speak on what I know um because there's a whole history of Normal in Australia that I wasn't really privy to um that happened years past. But essentially Normal tried to roll out into Australia or did roll out about three years ago um when the brand really came to be and went through a distributor.
Speaker: And when the distributor took their margin, there wasn't a whole lot of meat on the bone for retailers to really profit off a shoe that was so niche because basically the shoes at that point were um Killian's brainchild and not all runners, particularly in Australia, run in the way that Killian runs.
Speaker: And so the brand didn't have much success. I i think in the early days and and a lot of retailers didn't want to stock the product. And so circle back to probably late last year and they decided to just cut out the distributor and hire one person to roll out the brand onto shelves. So that margin is reduced and the shoes aren't as expensive on shelves.
Speaker: And then enter to me as someone who can give them a bit of scope into the into the community and the space and kind of what people are interested in what people are gravitating towards, what people are having success with in terms of products.
Speaker: And I guess that's where I find myself now as an athlete, but also as an ambassador for the brand. um a brand that I think is doing really innovative stuff and you know probably is maybe still a few years removed from making their best products but has some great stuff on the shelves already and I think is gonna be pretty boundary pushing and avant-garde in the way that they design as we've already seen
Speaker: Well, I can't remember the name of the shoe that Killian was going to or technically did start in. But the design of that trail shoe looks like they have really gone, okay, we've we've created a ah good concept that that's marked one people want to buy now. I think the Caddy has been pretty successful. I know that when I was talking to some of the retailers in Chamonix, that they were saying this was moving quickly, especially for for normal.
Speaker: But then, it yeah, they look like they're really taking a ah bolder move in the design concept. Have you seen any of those newer products? I'm still yet to see a lot of those prototypes, particularly the one that Killian wore at Western States, but I am seeing a lot more content come out about the shoe after UTMB week and getting more eyes on it. And it is it's a crazy concept. um I honestly thought when Killian wore it at Western States that we wouldn't see it on shelves for the public, but it does seem to me like it is a shoe that eventually we will have in our hands.
Speaker: um yeah I guess that's the the ethos of of normal the extra N stands for no so no if there is no normal how crazy can we get with it and I never knew what that extra N stood for Oh, there you go. Yeah, that's good. But the the actual, as much as you kind of can let us into the behind the scenes of how how the conversation goes from the the first time they reach out to the point where they go, hey, actually, we'd like to talk about making this more official to the point where you you sign that first contract.
Speaker: Is there anything that that you think is interesting to share for somebody that might be listening to this that was in your in your boots from a year ago? I don't think I had much as much bargaining power as i thought I would.
Speaker: um And not that i wanted to be greedy in any sense, but ah particularly in this instance, there was very much this is what it looks like.
Speaker: And Normal was a brand that it was pretty much the only brand that I really was interested in in partnering with because it ticks so many of those extra boxes for me. But yeah, I just, I think the general community maybe needs to be a little bit realistic about what brands can offer.
Speaker: And that at the end of the day, a lot of these decisions are financial. I i worry a lot about people who feel like they can only validate their running business through branding partnerships because a lot of people are willing to do things and sell products that they don't necessarily believe in because they think a sponsorship is the thing that's going to take them to the next level.
Speaker: The reality is that a sponsorship doesn't make you a better runner. Posting on Instagram in a pair of shoes doesn't make you faster.
Speaker: All of these things, you know, you've got to weigh up the the plethora of different things, pros and cons that fall into this world because I don't think a lot of us got into the sport to be salespeople.
Speaker: And I'm really fortunate that I get to wear a product that I believe in and think that if other people wear it, they will also like it.
Speaker: But I see a lot of people out there getting paid a pittance to become ambassadors for crap ah Yeah.
Speaker: Yes. Was there, before you had the conversation, start with normal and and you were like, oh cool, this is this is actually who I would want. This is great. Did you have that either literal or figurative pros and cons list about what you would consider signing for a brand with and what you thought wouldn't make it worth it I think the the monetary side of things kind of depended on how much of a sacrifice I was willing to make and if I was willing to make that sacrifice at all.
Speaker: I had a few conversations with other brands, um but they approached me with things that I think they thought I would like. and probably prove that they didn't understand who I was as an athlete with those things. that's That's kind of how I feel about that. Which is a great example of making sure you align yourself to the people that are going to elevate the person you are and not try and turn you into the person they want you to be.
Speaker: And the you're right, like attaching our self-worth or one self-worth as a elite runner to whether you've got a sponsorship or not. If you align to the wrong brand with the wrong expectations, which may be the right brand and the right expectation of somebody else, it could completely catapult you into the wrong direction.
Speaker: which it sounds like normal hasn't done that for you, but it's like that that potential is there. And in what ways do you, now that we're sitting, like March was but six months ago, you've been been with normal for a while. You've gone through some highs, you've gone through some lows. Do you feel like there are any clear ways that being part of that brand has made you feel any different bit like a positive way about you as a runner?
Speaker: Yeah, they they show up for me when I need it. They support me through the lows and you know that might just be a message of, hey man, I know it didn't go well, but like you know we've got you back and it's on to the next one.
Speaker: um I'm also really clued into what's coming next, what the innovation is. But I think for me, the most the coolest thing that I get to do is um show up for community and support different things. So over the weekend,
Speaker: I've been in partnership with a bunch of young kids who are getting introduced to trail and I was able to take some normal shoes out to the yangs and get some teenagers involved on the trails and exposing them to what it is to run in a brand spanking new pair of trail shoes for the first time. And um like the, these are the things, those kinds of extracurricular things and opportunities that these partnerships offer that I think like that is the, where I get the most meaning from these.
Speaker: That's really cool. Can you say any any more about like that that project in itself? Because it's a conversation that we have having at length at the moment about trying, how can we get used into trail running and and show them that it's an option. So I love the fact that normal is making a push there.
Speaker: Yeah, well, I was privileged enough to get contacted by a fellow called Chris, who's a coach with the Momentum Triathlon Academy, and they have a bunch of young athletes who are getting into triathlon.
Speaker: ah But Chris is really passionate about the trails, and he wanted to bring someone in to the fold who had a good grasp on the elite side of the sport, and I guess saw me as someone that the kids might look up to in the competitive environment and So yeah, i've I've gone on a few group runs with these awesome kids who are just like totally frothing and eager to spend their weekends out in the bush. So, you know, if if that is the effect that I can have on even a small group of people, like job done.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty awesome. Do you know if, is that just a Victoria Melbourne thing or is that a Australia wide thing? I'm pretty sure they are Victorian based. Yeah. It's a pretty, a relatively small group of about, I think 20 to 30 young athletes.
Speaker: That's so cool. I love that. Something else that you did change, i think at the back end of last year, potentially the beginning of this year, is you decided to go from being self-coached to getting a coach. And there are so many people that would be listening to this that might be thinking about that or have just gone into it or just going into it or might think, no, i i'm I'm good. I can look after myself.
Speaker: What was it that you felt like you were missing that the next logical step for you was, okay, I'm going to outsource my training and get somebody to join me on this journey? I don't think it was so much something that I was missing. i think I was just worried about where I would go without guidance.
Speaker: particularly as I was trying to take a next step, particularly as I was signing with brands um and this this pressure I was feeling to take a leap. I just wanted to bring someone into the fold who could be a barometer for when to push and when to hold back because I was worried about what I would do to myself with these external pressures.
Speaker: And that's when I started shopping around and looking for someone who I thought would be able to push me into a good place when I needed it, but also restrain me when I was doing too much. And that that's more of the thing. And I also, i kept on...
Speaker: speaking about how I was uncoached and how I was having success without one but I never knew what it was to have a coach so I couldn't tell and determine whether it was better or worse so i wanted to try something new and yeah so that we Kate Avery and I started working together probably in December of last year what was the hardest thing on on that in that first month that like getting used to having somebody write your training for you yeah, having someone write my training for me, doing a session. ah I think I, I'd maybe joined in on one session in my like five years of trail running.
Speaker: Uh, Yeah, just learning to stick to a script. And I said very earnestly to Kate before we started working together is if this is going to work, there has to be ah some wiggle room. And, you know, i want to be able to stick to the structure and know that whatever i'm whatever results I'm having a result of the training plan kind of as is.
Speaker: But there's got to be some room to play with because... Without that, I'm going to just want to break free and it's not going to work. so Have you found that you've been able to stick to structure? Does it feel like looking back now that that was the right time for you to have started with a coach? I think it's as good a time as any.
Speaker: ah it was the time that i decided to and therefore i just trust that that that was the right time it's taken me quite a long time to fall into rhythm with the routine and for us to work like work into a space that that makes sense i think kate's taken a while to kind of work me out as an athlete as well i appreciate that those things take time to figure out and i finally feel like i'm in rhythm with the program and you know, we're communicating enough that I can ask, I can ask for things and she can ask for things from me.
Speaker: So there is that interaction. And we caught up for coffee yesterday and I was just like, look, I'm, I'm feeling good. I think we can ratchet it up a bit. And she was like, okay, cool. But like, let's do it within reason.
Speaker: Um, cause my version of ratcheting it up is very different to hers. Yeah. And, yeah, we're, we're learning to do that dance and it's, it's cool to be able to have that face-to-face contact with a coach as well.
Speaker: Definitely. And I think especially somebody that's coming from only ever looking after themselves, like not having a coach do it for them is, I think I may even mentioned this to you at the the time is that I think it takes six months to truly find that rhythm together. And sometimes it can be faster, but so and sometimes it can be longer, but it,
Speaker: Once that rhythm clicks, that's when you start to see the real gains taking. And it's not that that six months is wasted and the training isn't good, but it's just, okay, you have to learn each other's personalities and how your body responds. And that, as we just already discussed, is constantly changing. So you don't even fully know exactly how, how it's going to feel. Um, does it, is that kind of how it's, how it's felt like it took that six month period, but now you're in a position where Kate knows you as an athlete. Yeah, absolutely. We're finally, well, not finally, but we're beginning to get on the same page.
Speaker: And it's what's been really interesting is that all of last year, my success, I kind of boiled down to the volume that I was doing. Uh, because when I looked at my training last year compared to years past, the thing that felt most obvious to me was the, my capacity to run more and run for longer.
Speaker: Uh, when Kate and I started working together, the volume was super lean and the intensity was significantly higher, but I had placed so much emphasis on mileage and and weighing up the value of my weeks through kilometers gained and vertical accumulated that I didn't really trust that what we were doing was of value.
Speaker: um And I'm a person that responds a lot to vibe which is such an intangible, but I, it took me a while to feel confident in less being more.
Speaker: And it's only really from these last couple of races that I've had and had decent results that I can see the value in the fact that like, I haven't run more than I think 75 Ks a week um in running volume for the last three months. But in an amongst all that the,
Speaker: the cycling, it's the hiking, it's the stair machine, it's all these new things that I probably haven't valued enough. Interesting. And you mentioned there the trust as well, that I think that's part of that is once you start to trust the system and that trust the coach, trust the fact that that approach is working for you, it just amplifies the results that you get. So it's it's good to hear that you've it got to that place where you guys can really start leveraging that.
Speaker: and succeeding. And we've seen, we've seen that, that recently we said you had two, two really good races at peaks and trails, probably but four weeks ago now or so, and then backed it up with the win at transcend 40 So you mentioned already the, uh, the think seven K distance there at peaks and trails, but what was the, the desire to go for those two races?
Speaker: I raced peaks and trails, I think it was three years ago, and it was the first race that I ever had a win in. ah And I just, there's something about that southern end of the Grampians in Dunkeld that just always harks me back. It's, yeah, it's one it's a place where I just have the most amazing sensations. And so I've been looking for an opportunity to get back to that race for for years and finally saw a space in my calendar that would make sense.
Speaker: I don't know what it is about that Muddajug challenge, but I think it's the history of it that makes me want to include myself in that. I raced it three years ago and that year, I think it was Steve Brennan had sent his his crew of athletes there. So I was up against the likes of Nath Pierce and Dave Bailey and Ethan Pink and I got absolutely pantsed. But there was something about that format that as a kind of prologue to the longer races the next day that I really loved and something that made sense about, you know, you run up the steepest, um, hill out there to the top of the mountain and then you run straight back down. Like that kind of, to me makes the most sense from a primal point of view.
Speaker: And then transcend where, where did that one fit in for you? Well, Transcend's been on my radar ever since I won KMR last year and i had ah got a free entry as part of the prize for that.
Speaker: Unfortunately, I couldn't do it last year because I was over in Europe, but it's always been on my radar. WA is one of those states that i um I just haven't spent a lot of time in and what better way to go over there than run a really cool race.
Speaker: I was initially signed up for the 65 and that was something I really wanted to prioritize and emphasize. But as things unfolded, I just didn't feel confident in my capacity to run for six plus hours.
Speaker: ah I was hoping that the weekend at Peaks and Trails would would act more as a building block, but I think it made me realise more that I'm just not there yet. And as I'm trying to build back more of my confidence in racing,
Speaker: ah I don't think it would have been a wise decision for me to toe the line with such talented athletes and feel really bad about my day. And I know that that can be perceived as competition dodging and these kind of things, but that's just kind of where I'm at at the moment. Like I need to i need to build back my confidence in any way possible. And being so far off the pace in a 65 is not the way to do it right now.
Speaker: No, especially when we saw how fast Charlie ended up taking that one out, which would have made ever anybody feel a little bit um disheartened about their fitness, I think. Yeah. So the actual race itself and and kind of where where we can wrap it up a little bit, but it reading your Instagram post afterwards, there are a few key things that I think you you hit on. The first was never taking for granted, crossing a finish line first and and breaking the tape.
Speaker: There was the the relief of feeling like you were coming back to that version of you that excels and actually enjoys the races rather than feels like that's where they need to be. and that you said a line as well when you took the lead that you were making the pass that you so often missed this year and just talk us through that race that pass and that feeling breaking the line of how that kind of all came together to to leave leave you feeling more positive about what's up what's coming up
Speaker: Yeah, the race wasn't as straightforward as as just a win. It was actually ah a real ding-dong battle and it wasn't until about the final eight kilometres that i um I actually managed to snag the lead. But Mike um mike Laurie went out so fast.
Speaker: And I'd heard about this enigma, um this trail running legend who comes out once in a blue moon to just absolutely destroy everyone. And I got to watch him bury everyone in the first kilometer of this race. And I basically just conceded that, you know, it would be a battle for the podium and that he had it all wrapped up.
Speaker: And I just had to trust in what I was doing. And I basically just ran the race that I was capable of on the day and trusted that that was my my path to the finish line in the most efficient way possible and tried my best to focus on what I was doing. But I can't say it was as straightforward as that. It was such an emotional rollercoaster going from holding on to second to being overtaken by third. And am I still good at this thing? And
Speaker: um you know, trying to go to battle for, for placings and then getting out done and outclassed. And yeah, it was, it was a real emotional rollercoaster. I've just, I was out there going, am I still good at this? And I think unfortunately it it took the result to convince me that I was still good at this. And um I don't know if that is the healthiest place to be. Like, I wonder if,
Speaker: if I still ran that time and it was second, whether I'd feel as good about it. I think there's there's still a bit of work to be done on that side of the thing, on that side of things, because I so i still think my, as much work as I've done, my self-worth is still slightly attached to results.
Speaker: um So i don't know where I'm at with that because fortunately and maybe unfortunately, Some of the best sensations I've had in this life are are ah crossing a finish line first. And it's hard to put those away and it's hard to accept when you're not there.
Speaker: And that's why I say that I never take these things for granted because... I think I convinced myself that first place was my benchmark when I'd had a string of them and then I got that torn away from me and and what do you do with your value when it's so intertwined with your capacity to win?
Speaker: the first interview that we, we did back or April of 25, the big standout was how many times joy came up. And that was really what was driving your running. And then you were putting a lot of focus into these races, but the results were really secondary if further back than that.
Speaker: Do you feel like getting, sorry, are you striving to get back to that person or do you think that that version of you within trail running can't exist anymore given where you where you are now and what you've accomplished? I think I'm trying to unlearn a lot of crap that I've picked up along the way. Yeah. i I really appreciate that version of myself, um maybe that naivety that I came into the sport with, that that desire just to be out there running. I think as I've tried to be more competitive, I've made the sport something that I don't think it has to be.
Speaker: um i still love to race. that's That's the problem is like I love those opportunities to get the most out of myself and like when the community comes together in that way. And I do really love to compete as much as it gives me anxiety. So it is a tenuous relationship. ah But I'm trying to navigate it as best as I can and so and still find those opportunities to like keep joy at the core of what I do.
Speaker: something you mentioned to me before we started, which talk about joy being at the core of what you do, that you had an opportunity that was kind of ripped away from you by no means of your own control earlier this year, where you were meant to fly over to Mallorca, one of the Balearic islands from Spain to be with the normal team and like all the normal team, like all all of the legends that they have, Elezin and Killian, Joyce.
Speaker: But what surprised me was actually what you said about how that you felt after that and how much that impacted. So like, I firstly take us back to the moment that you got told, Hey, this is an opportunity and we're going to like that. You're going to go and get a chance to experience.
Speaker: Yeah, that was ah that was a huge part of those initial conversations with Normal was, um you know, we want to bring you on and and there's this opportunity for you to go over and meet the team over at HQ in Mallorca.
Speaker: um At the time, I didn't know who was going to be there, but I i hoped that, you know, the best of the best were going to be there. And and as things progressed, they were. um But, you know, i was i had this incredible carrot dangling in front of me that was amazing. basically going to form the focus of my season.
Speaker: I didn't really care about races at that point. It was, it was like, just get to Mallorca, meet the team, um get a foot in the door, of course, but also go and run in a beautiful place with the best in the world. ah that Like,
Speaker: you know, that opportunity doesn't come around for many people. And all of a sudden it was offered to little old me. And I genuinely felt like I'm not worthy.
Speaker: ah And i don't think I ever envisioned it not happening. And I think that was my undoing was, I had flights booked and i i didn't really do my due diligence. And the day before I called the airline just to make sure everything was going ahead and probably just completely underestimated how bad the war in the Middle East had become and how it would impact me.
Speaker: um And they basically said, yeah, we're we're not running domestic flights. ah the The flight is cancelled.
Speaker: And I scrambled to find any other way around. ah But, you know, trying to figure out a flight the day before, like everyone else, was just a nightmare and expensive and... I think my best case scenario was basically being in transit for 45 hours and $9,000. And, uh, I made the excruciatingly difficult call to just say, all right, it's just, it's not meant to be this time. And if this is how the war impacts me, then, you know, i have it very, very lucky. Uh, but I,
Speaker: You know, I can't undersell how brutal it felt to watch that like my idols play on a beautiful Spanish island without me.
Speaker: And I was also supposed to race out there. So it also threw a bit of a spanner in the works because I was i was gearing up for a mountain race over there. and trying to put my best foot forward in a race where I would have been up against Killian, Dakota, Emily, Elhuzin.
Speaker: You know, i I never anticipated being in the mix of them, but I at least didn't want to get absolutely buried. So once that came crashing down, then... i i was like scrambling to figure out how i would replace it and they're just there wasn't anything of of that level of value to really do it so yeah i i did a fair bit of wallowing and i think that's the thing that so surprised me and i don't mean that in a bad way just it really highlights the impact that these opportunities can have on us and and potentially what we attach like how much of ourselves we attach to these things which we'd probably do without realizing but
Speaker: How long did it kind of take you to get out of that wallowing and get but get yourself back and into a rhythm? I think a good month at least. um Yeah, I mean, it just threw a complete spanner in the works because I blocked out a three-week period to be over in Europe.
Speaker: And then instead I was here. So I had to kind of recalibrate and reset things, ah come down emotionally, figure out how to, you know, what the training program program looked like, what my work schedule would look like.
Speaker: So, yeah, I think a a good month and, and maybe, you know, i I chalked it down to, okay, well, at least I can just keep focusing on UTA and, that took my mind off things a bit it just felt like i was able to give that more um emphasis but yeah still still recovering from it i think i think as i would be too as much as i was as much as i was told that that there would be another opportunity come up again um you just never know like the world is so volatile things are changing every two seconds uh Speaking of what's coming up, wasi you said about the ah attraction to more sky running-esque races.
Speaker: Is there anything in the calendar for the rest of this year or even looking into next year that's got you excited? Yeah, so I've i've planned out a bit of stuff. um I'm going to be heading over to South Korea to compete at the Five Peaks race.
Speaker: in november cool super excited about that it was the the short course at the asia pacific champs a couple of years ago it sounds horrendous which is totally the appeal and the perfect uh yeah running through creek beds running up scrambly stuff uh yeah and also in a in a country that i've never been to before And that is going to set me up nicely for something over in China, ah which I still don't know whether I can say publicly, but
Speaker: Anyway, i'll yeah I'll say less and say everything all at once. Yeah. And then anything after, will will will will that close out your year, sort of and end of November? That'll be my season done race-wise because as of, and then in Feb next year, I'm going to be racing Old Ghost 80K.
Speaker: So yeah, I'm going to need to take a bit of a a bit of time off and start gearing up for the longer stuff, um get back into the swing of the ultra game. Is that where you feel most drawn to still, the ultras? Yeah, it's interesting. i I think I still think of myself as an ultra guy, even though I've probably had as much or equal success in the kind of marathon distance.
Speaker: ah But I've always looked at the 40, 50 Ks as building blocks to bigger things. Maybe I shouldn't think that way anymore, but... For me, there's something more impressive about your capacity to endure and troubleshoot on the fly. Like that to me is impressive and probably something that i appreciate more than just fitness.
Speaker: Yeah. I've brought a couple of times, but Matt done yesterday. He said that Tour de Jean is his kind of next big focus. 330 K 24,000 meters through the Italian Alps. Is that, that that sort of thing ever interests you? Yeah.
Speaker: Totally. i'm aware i'm i would love to make big missions a big part of my future and and I'm so keen to get into the FKT space.
Speaker: I think this year's been a bit of a shock given how much I've struggled with my recovery ah from big days and so that's just psychologically been ah a bit of a setback because when I think about stacking big bricks back to back,
Speaker: It doesn't seem as simple as it did two years ago when I was, i felt like I was capable of doing those things. Um, never say never though. The body is an ever changing thing.
Speaker: Whatever I'm feeling now, i probably won't feel six months from, from this point. So yeah, I w I would love to get into that space. I don't know if it's necessarily tortoise, but, um, you know, the longer I can stay out there, the the more we can experience.
Speaker: I like it. It's very, very exciting to see what might come of that. And so there's so many things that impact our recovery that I'm sure there's a way forward for you that like opens up those multi-day adventures again.
Speaker: Ben, that's been fun. I always enjoy talking to you. It's... ah allowing us kind of behind behind the scenes as such into the thought process of this year like you've had a lot going on in the last 12 months a lot of a lot of highs and a lot of lows and a lot of new pressures expectations attention so i think just for everyone being able to listen to that and see what it is like and that it isn't all sunshine and rainbows when you get great results at worlds and you get that sponsor on board it's um yeah i appreciate you having the conversation with me today
Speaker: Awesome. Thanks everyone for listening. If you enjoyed this one, share it with somebody else. That's really the biggest thing for us is to let Ben's story get out there. Give us a rating or review otherwise and we'll catch you on the next one.
