Transcript
Echoes From The Grave: well hello hello hello Welcome back to Echoes from the Grave. I am Brandy and with me as always is Mike. How are you, Mike?
michael: Hello, I'm good. It is a fantastic day to record. and hear stories.
Echoes From The Grave: It is a great evening. to hear stories. You got any stories for us, Mike?
michael: Not much. Just trying to be. just tried to Just tried to breathe through it and see how the day goes.
Echoes From The Grave: Well I'll get started so you don't have to try and talk as much.
michael: you know so i don't have to breathe all heavy if you guys hear it's not because i saw a cookie or cake or anything but uh We're just trying to see if there's some mild asthma attack.
Echoes From The Grave: It's only because he got hit in the lungs. at the gym.
michael: We ain't worried about it though. It should be fine. Just huffing and puffing to see it.
Echoes From The Grave: He got beat up by a... A Juice head.
michael: Just stop. group
Echoes From The Grave: Meh.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: Mike is non -violent.
michael: For now.
Echoes From The Grave: For now.
michael: For now.
Echoes From The Grave: Alright.
michael: So I get those hate comments. to
Echoes From The Grave: Until we get some... Mean. Words. That's all right. That comes with the job.
michael: Yes, we are not sensitive by all means. But we... Will not take it laying down.
Echoes From The Grave: I'm sensitive. Don't be mean to me. I'll cry.
michael: a
Echoes From The Grave: No, just kidding.
michael: Hehehehe.
Echoes From The Grave: All right, are you ready for this story?
michael: Yes, I am excited to hear what we got going on today.
Echoes From The Grave: right Have you ever heard of the Nancy Anderson case?
michael: No, I'm gonna assume it's about Nancy Anderson though
Echoes From The Grave: i Look at you, deductive reasoning.
michael: Yes, yes.
Echoes From The Grave: Yes. So, Nancy Elaine Anderson was born on November 10, 1952 in Bay City, Michigan to Merle Verne Anderson and Thelma Bernice Brown.
Echoes From The Grave: Nancy was the fourth of ten kids. That's so many children. So in order, there was Mike. Carol.
Echoes From The Grave: Gail, Nancy, Mary, Betty, Jim, Jack, Janet, and Bill. Okay, Mike, what were their names?
michael: Uh, mic. Nancy. um Dustin, Lucas, he wore the Stranger Things cast.
Echoes From The Grave: The rest of the cast of Stranger Things. It's so wild. We said Dustin. I was like, that's my brother's name. Why is he saying that?
michael: Why am I saying names? And then you can't probably catch it on. I was like, oh, I didn't even mention the best one. Steve.
Echoes From The Grave: Steve is my favourite in multiple ways.
michael: And we need. Dipshit Derek.
Echoes From The Grave: Shit, Derek.
Echoes From The Grave: He turned out to be very cool, he did.
michael: Yes, sir.
Echoes From The Grave: Alright.
michael: Yes.
Echoes From The Grave: So...
michael: you should
Echoes From The Grave: I'm cutting you off. Don't talk about stranger things.
michael: Okay. Yeah. Okay. We're done. We're done there.
Echoes From The Grave: We'd get sued for this too.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: all Alright. So even in a family of 10 where it's easy to get lost, Nancy stood out. Oh my gosh, Nancy, Stranger Things. Doy. Mike, I'm so stupid.
michael: Yeah. So I said, and you said, Mike, Nancy, I was like, okay, well.
Echoes From The Grave: And...
michael: i
Echoes From The Grave: Mike! Oh my gosh!
michael: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: i'm
michael: oh Now we're putting it all together. It's okay. We'll piece it all together.
Echoes From The Grave: I'm an idiot. Well, I was just like, Mike, like you.
michael: Hehehehe.
Echoes From The Grave: Wake up. I wasn't thinking Mike with Stranger Things. And Jim Hopper? Oh my gosh. Okay.
michael: See you just named yeah that so I was like, all right, let me just name
Echoes From The Grave: but Named half the cast.
michael: yeah let me just name the other half and just make a joke out of it but you know now we have to explain it Ugh.
Echoes From The Grave: I'm usually not this stupid. Anyway.
michael: Thank you, sir.
Echoes From The Grave: So Nancy stood out. She was a dynamic spirit full of joy and happiness. She loved to put on plays as a child, her favorite being The Wizard of Oz. So all her siblings played parts, with Nancy, of course, being Dorothy.
Echoes From The Grave: Nancy and her family were all incredibly close. I actually do not like Wizard of Oz.
michael: Me neither the flying monkeys creep me out
Echoes From The Grave: the flying monkeys i had a nightmare when i was a kid about the flying monkeys they like killed my family and i can't do it
michael: Yeah.
michael: Um, Well, we're not Kansas anymore.
Echoes From The Grave: Nope.
michael: I have to show you the meme that I have that I use for. a random random encounters. But anyways, that's it. Off podcasting.
Echoes From The Grave: When we get discorded and websites and whatnot we can show it on there
michael: sir
Echoes From The Grave: m So... Like I said, her family was incredibly close. But in 1966, when Nancy was 13, Thelma and her 10 children would face terrible tragedy. Merle, who worked at a chemical company in Midland, Michigan, was a boiler maker.
Echoes From The Grave: as a boiler maker was unfortunately killed in a work accident when a boiler exploded
michael: Cheers.
Echoes From The Grave: So sad. But just four years later, in June of 1977, Janice... I don't know why I said Janice. There's no Janice in here.
michael: o Janice.
Echoes From The Grave: Nancy. who would graduate from John Glenn High School. After graduation though, Nancy wasn't really sure She knew what she wanted to do. She knew she wanted to change though.
Echoes From The Grave: She'd watch all her friends and classmates go off to college or join the service and start their lives, but she didn't have a clear path ahead of her. Nancy was just trying to find herself and decided the perfect place to start her next chapter was more than 4 ,000 miles away in Honolulu, Hawaii.
michael: o And if...
Echoes From The Grave: You ever been to Hawaii?
michael: now but i want to i want to
Echoes From The Grave: it's on the list
michael: Relax them. Yeah, I want to relax on the beach something that's Not like... No pressure, no like touristy stuff, but like... Nothing that like I could just get up.
michael: I can see the ocean hang out. and Just not have to worry about anything.
Echoes From The Grave: You can go see like the place where Jurassic Park was filmed.
michael: petric
Echoes From The Grave: That's on the islands. i think it's on the big island i'm not 100 sure i forgot to mute my microphone
michael: oh
michael: The Oahu.
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: Your microphone
Echoes From The Grave: I meant my phone.
michael: Oh.
Echoes From The Grave: My phone fell. I am. Just yapping all over.
michael: because Yeah, you got mail.
Echoes From The Grave: Yep, I sure did.
michael: Is it?
Echoes From The Grave: Um, So... Yes, she made her way to Honolulu, Hawaii. This would be the first time she would be on her own away from her entire family.
michael: he
Echoes From The Grave: Nancy would arrive in Oahu on October 21, 1971. and shortly after would find a place to live and a job in. Honolulu.
Echoes From The Grave: She found an apartment from an advertisement in the newspaper looking for a roommate at the Coral Terrace apartment complex and got a job at McDonald's in the Ala Moana Shopping Center, which was just over a mile away from her apartment.
Echoes From The Grave: So she was moving quick.
michael: She has five day job quicker than anything
Echoes From The Grave: Yes. So she had... been working there for a couple months at McDonald's and decided that she would go home for Christmas for two weeks to see her family.
Echoes From The Grave: While there, she bought gifts for every everyone and created a picture gallery. On the wall. of her entire family. like at her home in Michigan. Um. That was one of her big gifts to the family. as She just...
Echoes From The Grave: she created a picture gallery for her mom to see all her kids and you know. family. After Christmas, her sister Carol was taking her to the airport when Nancy looked over.
Echoes From The Grave: and said Carol I don't want to go back Kara responded, Nancy, you have to go back. All your things are there. So Nancy listened to her older sister and boarded her flight back to Honolulu.
Echoes From The Grave: Simon has the zoomies if you hear chattery noises that's him
michael: This.
Echoes From The Grave: So... She boarded her flight back to Honolulu, but just one week later, something strange happens and this leads the Anderson family to believe Nancy is in danger. On January 7, 1972,
Echoes From The Grave: At about 8 p .m. Michigan time, Thelma was in the family room sitting in a chair crocheting with her back to the pool table. um that they had And the wall.
michael: thanks
Echoes From The Grave: when she heard a loud bang. Thelma all of a sudden bursts out to say, Nancy, oh no, Nancy. Nancy's brother Jack and a friend had been playing pool in the family room when the friend hit his pool cue on the wall where the picture gallery was.
Echoes From The Grave: When he hit the wall, in Nancy's photo, which was on the top left -hand... Corner.
michael: okay
Echoes From The Grave: crashed to the floor just her photo fell to the floor shattering glass everywhere Thelma's back was to the wall so she had no idea what photo had crashed to the ground and she just screamed out Nancy's name.
Echoes From The Grave: The family all had an eerie feeling that something had happened when the photo broke. Something was wrong. That same day, January 7th, at about 5 .15 Hawaii time.
Echoes From The Grave: Nancy's roommate, Jody Spooner, would be placing a very frantic call to 911. Jodi said she had heard water just running in Nancy's bedroom. And when she went to check it out.
Echoes From The Grave: She found Nancy lying on the floor of her bedroom.
Echoes From The Grave: Um, I said harry I was checking on what the cat was chewing on
michael: It's a...
Echoes From The Grave: So... um I wonder, like... What time zone is Hawaii in? Because it's like...
michael: I want to say...
Echoes From The Grave: Behind you more though, isn't it?
michael: it' Yeah, I want to say it's six hours behind Eastern Time, but let me look. I'll look up Hawaii Time right now.
Echoes From The Grave: Behind Eastern?
michael: Hawaii Time.
Echoes From The Grave: That's crazy.
michael: Right.
Echoes From The Grave: so like
michael: It's... ah Yeah, so it's 514 right now
Echoes From The Grave: What time is it there?
michael: and It's 814 here.
Echoes From The Grave: So there's three hours behind you.
michael: Yeah, it's six hours behind you
Echoes From The Grave: Where's, is Michigan in Eastern or is it Central?
michael: Let's see I think Michigan is central, but Michigan times.
michael: Yeah, they're Eastern
Echoes From The Grave: Okay, so at 8 o 'clock... Michigan time is when the picture fell.
Echoes From The Grave: That would be what two o 'clock. Hawaii time.
Echoes From The Grave: So like her mom was predicting her death
michael: ge
Echoes From The Grave: Weird.
michael: Yes.
Echoes From The Grave: that Freak me out.
michael: Yeah, that would freak me out too.
Echoes From The Grave: So Jodi had told the police that she thought Nancy had committed suicide. By 6pm, police had arrived at Nancy's apartment. There was no evidence of a forced entry, no damage to the door jamb.
Echoes From The Grave: door knob or the latch. After a brief overview of the scene, the police called in Honolulu's criminal investigation unit.
Echoes From The Grave: Um, when they do re - detectives arrived, they would go and take note of the state of Nancy's room. In her room Nancy had two twin beds. One was made up and in order while the other was a bit disheveled. The sheet was stained with blood, and Nancy's body was on the ground next to it.
Echoes From The Grave: Nancy was on her back head up eyes open with her feet pointed towards the door. While her blouse was partially ripped open, Nancy was found fully clothed so it didn't appear to be sexual, but it was a very violent death with many puncture wounds to her chest. Given the violence of the scene and nancy wound Nancy's wounds,
Echoes From The Grave: Detectives deduced that this, in fact, was not a suicide. It was a homicide. Which, yeah. who I don't know.
michael: Do you think it's...
Echoes From The Grave: That's what you say.
michael: you think it's a apparent if i guess at that point but like why was it i guess why they assume it was a suicide to begin with.
Echoes From The Grave: i see maybe just because all the blood and she was just laying there and There was no sign of... any Anyone else, really?
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: But I also would think like... Who's stabbing themselves? over and over and over and over and over.
michael: i Mean I guess realistically if you go into a Certainly. break, maybe. But...
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, maybe I don't know. know Not me. Also, like you hear these studies and stuff. we're Um.
Echoes From The Grave: When. pair like it's I don't know how like accurate this study is or whatever. I've just heard about it multiple times. um It's like when a lady commits suicide.
Echoes From The Grave: they do it in a way where it looks more dignified so like they will like um Take. sleeping pills or something like that so their family doesn't have to be shocked by how gruesome it is.
michael: Yeah, it's usually less and less. ah of a mess so that someone else doesn't have to.
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: clean up after them.
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah. Or men just... Do whatever.
michael: so However it is, it's weird statistics.
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: and it's a it's weird to how like behaviors in different Like. like regardless of access to...
michael: like the means to be able to do something like that. And like, it's still like statistically. shows like how like someone would go about.
michael: like committing if they were going to go through with it.
Echoes From The Grave: Mm -hmm.
Echoes From The Grave: It's just all like... Because when I read that I was like that kind of does make sense because They don't want to be an extra burden. on their family by having to clean up this mess so they're just gonna do like neat and tidy
michael: Yeah, they already know that they're going to be traumatizing them. They just don't want it to be anymore.
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: More of a burden, like you said.
Echoes From The Grave: Yes. So... Back to the story.
michael: Okay.
Echoes From The Grave: The injuries to Nancy were caused by a sharp force instrument, so they were looking for a knife, essentially. The investigators... I don't know what is wrong with me. I'm struggling.
Echoes From The Grave: The investigators would search the kitchen to see if there was a knife missing from that area that could have been used in the murder, but they were unable to locate the weapon.
michael: Okay.
Echoes From The Grave: They did, however, find a bloody towel on the floor near her body stained in blood. and then another down the hall. Also, same with blood. While the crime scene techs would dust for fingerprints and photograph the crime scene, detectives started to search the building and that is when they found a third towel on the ground floor of the stairwell. That third towel also had blood on it and it was established that someone had left the apartment.
Echoes From The Grave: so in the violent murders So in violent murders involving a knife where the victim is stabbed multiple times, it's pretty common for the murderer to actually cut themselves during the attack.
Echoes From The Grave: Did you know that?
michael: Yeah, usually because... they're not paying attention to especially if they're If they're stabbing over and over, at some point they accidentally, like, the blade will shift up into their hand.
Echoes From The Grave: Yes, the knife in hands get bloody. obviously, and then the knife can slip and slice.
michael: and slice.
Echoes From The Grave: instead of slip and slide it's slip and slice
michael: Scoop and scoop.
Echoes From The Grave: The scootin' scoop. Because of the multitude of towels, the detectives thought that this is exactly what happened, the slip and slice, and that the assailant used one or more towels to try and stop the bleeding, which is why...
Echoes From The Grave: They were found in so many different places.
Echoes From The Grave: Nancy's body was transported to the morgue where the medical examiner would document the horrific death of this poor girl. They found 63 stab wounds and were able to give some information on the murder weapon.
Echoes From The Grave: It was a small instrument. at about five centimeters in length so it's probably a paring knife which is a pretty short bladed knife and is much more difficult to use in a murder.
Echoes From The Grave: Shorter knives are not usually used in murders because they are really long enough to hit vital organs. Which apparently you'd want to do if you're killing somebody.
michael: please
Echoes From The Grave: Couldn't be me. That's too much work you couldn't do it you get winded after having that air knocked out of you.
michael: After I played basketball for one too many one too many games.
Echoes From The Grave: Detectives believe the killer would have been someone Nancy knew. There was no forced entry, no struggle, and there seemed to have been a lot of emotion connected to the stabbing. 63 stab wounds isn't something that happens in a random homicide. That is something up close and personal, especially with such a small knife.
Echoes From The Grave: So one day after the murder back in Michigan, Nancy's family is marking the sixth anniversary of her father's death. It was a Saturday and the Andersons were at Mass.
Echoes From The Grave: when they arrived home waiting for them at the front door was the oldest child in the family mike Mike pulls Thelma aside and has to give her the news that Nancy had been murdered.
Echoes From The Grave: That's so sad. like the day before her dad's death anniversary.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: Ugh. that's tragic
Echoes From The Grave: Okay. So... The police department had no witnesses, no word or weapon. Murder weapon? I think I said word or weapon.
michael: it
Echoes From The Grave: and gave the family little information. Sadly, none of the family had the money to go to Hawaii so they really had to put their faith in the police to do everything they could to solve this.
Echoes From The Grave: The family was suspicious of Nancy's roommate, Jody. They didn't know her. They would say they the two weren't particularly close. stating it was a relationship of convenience jody needed a roommate and nancy needed a room
Echoes From The Grave: So the detectives would sit down with Jodi, who would describe Nancy as friendly and outgoing, maybe a little naive in her willingness to engage with people she didn't know. Not me.
Echoes From The Grave: If I don't know you, I ain't talking to you.
michael: it Yeah, I don't know about all that especially in a Random. Bye. Like I'm not. from the city or state or anything else.
Echoes From The Grave: Mhm. I feel like people back in the 70s were... way more open to being friendly though.
michael: Yeah, or at least you know, they're like, okay. Well, yeah, I'll take this person in why not they need help
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, the hitchhikers and you know Colts and stuff We're like everywhere.
michael: Yeah. Clip. Okay. Way more trusting back then.
Echoes From The Grave: Yes. Jodi didn't indicate that Nancy was promiscuous, just that she was a very friendly person who would talk with people on the street. Jodi said it wasn't uncommon for Nancy to have strangers in their apartment.
Echoes From The Grave: That would bug me.
michael: mm -hmm
Echoes From The Grave: Wait, do you know this person? No, then why are they here?
michael: Why are they in your space?
Echoes From The Grave: Oh my lord. The day Nancy was murdered was a Friday. Jodi had told detectives that she had left the apartment at about 12 to go shopping and had returned at approximately 2 .30 and that Nancy had two young men with her.
Echoes From The Grave: These two young men were selling cutlery And we're doing a demonstration with knives. Obviously, this information piques the interest of the detectives because they were selling items consistent with the murder weapon.
Echoes From The Grave: At a... approximately 3 p .m. Nancy escorted the men downstairs and let them out of the building jody said when nancy returned to the apartment building they spoke for about 10 minutes before jody went to take a nap in her room Jodi said this was the last time she actually saw Nancy alive.
michael: please
Echoes From The Grave: Sad and scary.
michael: okay Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: Detectives were very curious as to why Jodi wouldn't have heard Nancy's murder. Because, you know, they're in the same apartment. I'm assuming if someone she's getting murdered, she's not quiet about it, you know?
michael: Yeah, and I guess especially if they're being stabbed that way
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, 63 times? That's a lot of stabbing.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: And then the guy is probably rushing out. And he had to go grab towels unless the towels were already in Nancy's room. like Oh well, Nancy has a bathroom attached to her room. I forgot.
Echoes From The Grave: So Jodi's account is that she woke up and heard water running. Nancy's bedroom has its own bathroom that separated her bedroom from Jodi's bedroom. So it's like.
Echoes From The Grave: Jody's room was on the left. And then like a bathroom. and then nancy's like actual bedroom so I guess It could be.
Echoes From The Grave: Possible.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: um So the detectives did their own experiment where one detective was in Jodi's room and another was in Nancy's with the water running and determined that it's possible.
Echoes From The Grave: that Jody wouldn't have heard what was going on in the other room, given the noise from construction happening in the complex and the room. running water.
michael: Let's go.
Echoes From The Grave: I need shoes.
Echoes From The Grave: um The detectives wanted to know who these salesmen were, and actually they were able to identify them fairly quickly because of a pie cutter that had been left behind after the demonstration You know what a pie cutter is?
michael: uh is it the thing that's like a little triangle on it too like people use it for cake
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: Okay, I was like...
Echoes From The Grave: It cuts by.
michael: it cuts pie but i didn't know if it was like the same thing as like where like a cake cutter is
Echoes From The Grave: I'm assuming.
michael: Okay.
Echoes From The Grave: it's like a little like what are they called like a trowel or whatever for a spade
michael: probably a spade
Echoes From The Grave: for um i think they also call them trowels but it's for like digging in the dirt
michael: Hmm.
Echoes From The Grave: It looks like it's a little triangle. You're right. It's just like a little guy.
michael: You'll learn something new.
Echoes From The Grave: Did you though?
michael: I mean at least knowing the new name of what it's called.
Echoes From The Grave: Bye, Karina. I guess ah I don't know if people eat as much pie as they used to.
michael: Oops.
michael: Uh...
Echoes From The Grave: I think... people eat more cake than pie maybe
michael: Good week. Maybe but I guess I'm like holidays people eat more pie
Echoes From The Grave: I don't like pie
michael: hey It depends on what kind of pie it is, but yeah, I'm also not
Echoes From The Grave: I'm worried.
michael: I'm not a big cheesecake person either, but
Echoes From The Grave: Cheese cake is amazing. I like cake in general more than pie though.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: I guess it also depends on the kind of cake. I mean cheesecake.
michael: Yeah, like I prefer the consistency of a cheesecake over a pie, but.
Echoes From The Grave: I don't...
michael: you know Gonna have to do a poll one day see how many people
Echoes From The Grave: is
Echoes From The Grave: What's this?
michael: like pie compared to cake.
Echoes From The Grave: and what the favorite is I'd say like a pumpkin pie.
michael: No. It would have to be an apple pie for me.
Echoes From The Grave: I don't like the warm fruit.
michael: oh See?
Echoes From The Grave: I think also I don't like the crust so I'll just eat the filling of the pumpkin pie and then throw the rest of it away.
michael: Going to have ah ourselves a discussion of desserts. Let's see. Gotta change the podcast.
Echoes From The Grave: next time
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: What should we call it? It'll be just desserts.
michael: Yeah
Echoes From The Grave: Murderin' pie.
michael: Pie, try or die. but
Echoes From The Grave: There you go. That's a good one. Where we rate pies while talking about murder.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: Alright guys, that's our idea. Don't steal it.
michael: Yes, sir.
Echoes From The Grave: Just kidding. I'm not eating pie. this cat He's going crazy. Okay. So the detectives tracked down the distribution center and were able to identify Parker Graham and Jeffrey Allward as the salesmen.
Echoes From The Grave: The men explained that they had met Nancy in Waikiki at 12 and made an appointment to see her at her apartment at 1. They said that Jodi arrived home at about 2 .30.
Echoes From The Grave: And they then said that Nancy... wasn't actually interested in buying anything so they left at about three which Yeah, why does she need knives? She probably already has some. She just wanted to get to know y 'all.
michael: just
Echoes From The Grave: Both men. consented to polygraphs which are not admissible in court, by the way. and they were cleared no deception had been indicated At this point, the police eliminated Josie jody as a suspect and put nancy's time of death between 3 10 p .m when jody goes to her room and 5 15 p .m when she finds the body
Echoes From The Grave: When the Anderson family found out what time Nancy had been murdered, they were filled with dread. That was the exact time the picture had been knocked off the wall and shattered. But I...
Echoes From The Grave: We did our math and it doesn't seem to be mathing, so I don't know.
michael: this Unless we were off by an hour.
Echoes From The Grave: Who knows?
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: I don't know I'm...
michael: For sake of the story, though. bump bump bomb
Echoes From The Grave: Exactly. For sake of the story, it was the exact time and her mom is a psychic. um With no forced entry to the apartment, the police had two thoughts. Either Nancy knew who killed her and had let them into the apartment,
Echoes From The Grave: or the killer was someone who already had access. The Andersons told police that Nancy had mentioned that she had many friends in hawaii a lot of them being guys but didn't have an actual boyfriend just that she had met a lot of people and was very friendly
Echoes From The Grave: Investigators would interview everyone that she knew in Hawaii, from coworkers to acquaintances to friends. But unfortunately, just one week after the murder, they were running out of ideas. They didn't have a single solid lead.
Echoes From The Grave: Eventually. The Andersons had a burial service for Nancy. She was buried next to her father in St. Patrick's Cemetery. A couple weeks after the service Thelma received an odd phone call.
Echoes From The Grave: It was a man named Mike. reaching out to give his condolences and tell them he too was grieving nancy that he was nancy's new boyfriend The Andersons were full flabbergasted.
Echoes From The Grave: They had no idea who this man was. Nancy never mentioned him during Christmas or any time after that. she had never been or He had never been brought up in a letter or a phone call to the family.
Echoes From The Grave: But to him, he and Nancy were dating. He later contacted Thelma again saying he could bring Nancy's things back to her if she would like. He contacted the police as well as saying he was headed to the mainland and if the police wanted him to bring anything to them he could pick it up and take it.
Echoes From The Grave: but the police declined his offer. He would still go to Michigan and meet the family and when he arrived, they were all very skeptical about his motives. But when he arrived at the house, he seemed sincere. and was also grieving.
michael: Would you trust it?
Echoes From The Grave: No!
michael: Eh.
Echoes From The Grave: It's...
michael: I'd be like, huh, this is weird.
Echoes From The Grave: It's kind of weird like It's weird that she had never mentioned him, but if they were like... brand new. Maybe they were friends before she left.
michael: Okay.
Echoes From The Grave: and then when they got back she and he decided to make it official so she didn't really it's been it was a week after she got home that she was murdered so maybe she just didn't really have time to tell her family
michael: Yeah.
michael: The other day that she met someone but also never trust a man named Mike
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, we don't trust mics around here.
michael: yeah
Echoes From The Grave: Also though, like... It's weird that he contacted them and was like Hey. i Was dating her I'm also sad like do you want some of her crap?
Echoes From The Grave: i'll bring it to you.
michael: Yeah, like he's trying to interject himself into the...
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: uh
Echoes From The Grave: And even going to the police and being like, hey, do you need me to bring anything to them? I totally can. Like a weird messenger.
michael: Yeah he's a What is it, like a carrier pigeon?
Echoes From The Grave: And then he goes to Michigan to meet them.
michael: Yeah
Echoes From The Grave: I don't know
michael: A little weird, a little strange mic.
Echoes From The Grave: Here we go, Mike When he met the family, he asked Mary, which is a sister. Do you have any idea who killed your sister? She replied, no, do you?
Echoes From The Grave: He told her, no. But it wasn't me.
michael: Heh.
Echoes From The Grave: The ex -
michael: As expected.
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, the exchange left Mary taken aback with Mike. The family would contact Honolulu detectives and ask if he was a potential suspect and learned that he had already been questioned.
Echoes From The Grave: But it's still like, no, it wasn't me though. Like what? Okay.
michael: Yeah, it's like you're trying to give someone a reassurance I guess maybe
Echoes From The Grave: Thanks. I don't know, but why do you know who killed her?
michael: of
Echoes From The Grave: No? Do you? No, it wasn't me. What?
michael: Yeah, I wasn't thinking it was you until now.
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, now I think it's you, you freak. Mike told the detectives that the last time he saw Nancy was at the airport. Come to find out he wasn't on the island at the time of the murder so he had been ruled out.
Echoes From The Grave: The detectives had interviewed every everyone in Nancy's life and ruled them all out one by one with either fingerprints or alibis. Over the next four months, they would receive multiple phone calls with different tips, which they would follow up on, but no reliable leads would come from them.
Echoes From The Grave: Unfortunately, by June 1972, the leads and clues had all dried up and the case would be left as a pending. case. 29 years after Nancy was murdered.
Echoes From The Grave: in February of 2001. Thelma passed away at the age of 75 with no answers as to who murdered her daughter.
Echoes From The Grave: After the passing of Thelma in July 2001, Nancy's sister Carol would write a lengthy letter to the chief of police in Honolulu. demanding that they reopen Nancy Case.
Echoes From The Grave: To Carol's amazement, the chief replied and said, yes, we will reopen her case. We will look. at everything. So when the cold case detective went through the case, they discovered the three bloody towels left at the scene.
Echoes From The Grave: Back in 1972, the only available blood testing was to determine what the blood type was. They didn't have a way to test for DNA yet. Back then the detectives had no way of knowing about the advancements in technology and evidence retrieval, but had enough forethought to seal it. and store the evidence. they had.
Echoes From The Grave: properly in such a way to avoid contamination. So in 2003... what, we were 11 in 2003, the Honolulu Police Department's Forensic Biology Unit tested the towels and determined that the sample was from an unknown male profile.
michael: says
Echoes From The Grave: Finally they had a way to identify a suspect. With this new discovery, cold case detectives tracked down every single man that was questioned in Nancy's murder. They were able to get cooperation from everyone and were provided DNA samples.
michael: if
Echoes From The Grave: Some DNA testing took six months, some took eight, but the Anderson family kept in contact with the HPD just hoping for something. Eventually, all the DNA results would come back and the family learns that not a single sample from the men were a match to the killer.
Echoes From The Grave: I've had to go through a ton of people. That's wild work.
michael: Yeah, say to track all that, could you imagine 29 years later?
Echoes From The Grave: No.
michael: They're like, you're you're questioned in this, but you want to give a... a sample which i guess if you say no that makes you even more of a suspect yeah
Echoes From The Grave: You look sus.
Echoes From The Grave: Imagine being those. Like... Salesman. like Hey, remember 30 years ago when you tried to sell some knives to this chick and she died? We want your DNA now.
Echoes From The Grave: wild work
michael: it is It's strange. the The timelines and everything else.
Echoes From The Grave: These are the days of our lives.
michael: This is...
Echoes From The Grave: That's what it sounded like you were going for. This... Strange these timelines.
michael: This is...
Echoes From The Grave: So luckily for the police, though, the. Um. Luckily for the police, though, comma. they have another tool at their disposal.
Echoes From The Grave: CODIS, a national database of DNA from convicted felons. Mike, do you know what CODIS stands for?
michael: CODIS?
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, what does it stand for?
michael: Uh...
michael: I... is it Because CODIS, right?
Echoes From The Grave: Yes, CODIS. Don't Google it.
michael: I'm not trying uh Central of I don't know since
Echoes From The Grave: Think think about the BAU, and Spencer Reed. And the rest of that show.
michael: there. profiles
Echoes From The Grave: Criminalize.
michael: They are profiling it all. I don't know what the term CODIS, I know of it, like, I just don't know what the acronym means.
Echoes From The Grave: CODIS stands for... Combined DNA Index System.
michael: yes
Echoes From The Grave: Got it?
michael: Yes.
Echoes From The Grave: What's this thing for?
michael: Combined. DNA index system.
Echoes From The Grave: Good job. So luckily for the police, they had that. Unluckily for the police. The DNA sample they had was not a match for anyone in CODIS or...
Echoes From The Grave: in the Hawaii State DNA Index System. So, many of the officers were confused by Why there wasn't a hit? anywhere in the systems for someone one to stab another person 63 times and not ever offend again in 30 years is relatively unheard of It was theorized that maybe the suspect was already dead.
Echoes From The Grave: Wouldn't that suck?
michael: That would if the person ended up dying like shortly after
Echoes From The Grave: And you don't get justice? Ugh. um But. So in 2003, the case went back into pending status. It was a letdown for the family to not have a killer caught, but at least now they had the DNA profile out there to give them more of a chance.
Echoes From The Grave: In 2018, so 15 years later. While at a family reunion, Jack had mentioned to Carol... that He had been seeing things about genetic genealogy and wondered if this could be something they could try in Nancy's case.
Echoes From The Grave: carol wrote the chief of police again asking if there was any way they could try the genetic genealogy. root.
Echoes From The Grave: Do you know what genetic genealogy is?
michael: Um,
Echoes From The Grave: besides a mouthful to say.
michael: as said I'm assuming it's like Ancestry .com.
Echoes From The Grave: Kind of, yeah.
michael: Yes.
Echoes From The Grave: So genetic genealogy is taking the genetic profile of someone and being able to match their ancestry to somebody within that family. Yeah, you were right. It was that. But I wanted to get my explanation out.
michael: Yes.
michael: Oops.
Echoes From The Grave: In... it 2018 genetic genealogy was something that HPD knew about, but they weren't very familiar with it. And not only have they never used the method before,
Echoes From The Grave: their forensic labs couldn't produce the level of genetic detail necessary to really utilize genealogy. which is wild you think that a honolulu is a big place right it's like one of the biggest cities well it isn't it like their capital
michael: Yeah.
michael: Yeah
Echoes From The Grave: But you would think that the capital city would have... a police department with like the best technology. But who knows?
Echoes From The Grave: Uh...
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: After the reunion, Jack started to do research of his own and ran across CeCe Moore. She is a renowned investigative.
michael: yes
Echoes From The Grave: Investigative genetic genealogist. Say that five times fast. Holy heck.
Echoes From The Grave: She is a renowned investigative genetic genealogist who has helped solve many cold cases and reunite families. So in that Early 2019, Jack decided to take a chance and reach out to Cece.
Echoes From The Grave: He told her about Nancy's murder and how there had not been any leads in almost 50 years at this point. By the end of the day, Cece had replied saying she would love to have the opportunity to work with investigators on the case.
Echoes From The Grave: All right, so we're going to get into some CC information. Cece's company, Parabon Nanolabs, works with law enforcement to reserve...
Echoes From The Grave: to reverse engineer someone's family tree through genetic genealogy techniques. In order to identify people to have left their DNA behind at crime scenes.
Echoes From The Grave: Parabon was able to provide an actual simulation of what the person would look like. based on the DNA profile. which the HPD labs were not capable of at the time.
Echoes From The Grave: This technique to create the simulation is called snapshot. phenotyping, and it uses DNA to predict someone's physical traits.
Echoes From The Grave: In July 2019, Honolulu investigators finally had a basic description of the suspect. The snapshot predicted that the person who left his DNA at the crime scene had to be fair.
Echoes From The Grave: To very fair skin type brown or hazel eyes and brown or black hair with ancestors from southern and southeastern Europe Obviously, it was not expected that this snapshot would give a mirror image like a photograph, but it did help narrow down who this person could be.
Echoes From The Grave: So this is where CC's magic comes into play. What she does is she builds the family trees of the people who are sharing DNA with that unknown suspect. when she built those individuals trees she could see that they were going back to three places geographically Romania, and two different places in southern Italy.
Echoes From The Grave: is a pretty unique ancestry.
michael: Yes.
Echoes From The Grave: So she thought. Romanian and Italian. That's like... Very different I feel. um Yeah, so she thought back to 1972 Honolulu and how there were probably not a ton of people there who were half Romanian, half Italian.
Echoes From The Grave: So this gave her specific things to look for and she found that the 1971 Honolulu City Directory had been uploaded to the internet. So it's like the phone book.
Echoes From The Grave: For Vietnam. uploaded imagine all the time it takes to upload a film book.
michael: Yeah, I can't imagine
Echoes From The Grave: It's just like... copying it into the internet. um So she started to look for surnames that had a Romanian or Italian origin and she built their family trees.
Echoes From The Grave: It took her ages just to get down to the sea names, but when she finally got there, she came across the name Tudor. Cheer out. Chirilla. Tutor Chirila.
michael: to Torello Okay.
Echoes From The Grave: First name Tudor, last name Chirilla.
michael: That's it.
Echoes From The Grave: This name immediately jumped out to Cece as a Romanian surname, and while building his family tree, she sees that half is Romanian on his dad's side and half Italian on his mom's.
Echoes From The Grave: Using online archives, Cece is able to dig into Tudor's background. She was able to find photos of him and his traits were consistent with those of the snapshot suspect.
Echoes From The Grave: He was living with his wife, Marilee Rocco, about 2 .4 miles away from Nancy's apartment at the time of the murder.
Echoes From The Grave: All right. So... Let's learn about tutor. First of all... Wild name.
michael: This is a wild name.
Echoes From The Grave: I've never heard Tudor as a name before
Echoes From The Grave: And it's T -U -D -O -R, so like... um like the Times in England like the Tudors, you know
michael: Yeah. Hmm.
Echoes From The Grave: back then
michael: That's it. it's an interesting name
Echoes From The Grave: Yes. So Tudor had received his Master's of Arts degree from the University of Hawaii and was working as a teaching assistant when Nancy was murdered. Tudor would leave Hawaii and earn a law degree in Sacramento, California in 1977, and by 1980 he was practicing law in Reno, Nevada.
Echoes From The Grave: Tudor and his wife Marilee. Would have one song. one sun. and two daughters and by all accounts he was an upstanding family man Yeah. He had worked as a deputy attorney general in Nevada, and he even ran for Nevada Supreme Court.
Echoes From The Grave: So by all accounts, this is not really the type of dude. you would normally suspect of such a horrible murder. because you know he's got a law degree
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: But when Cece dug more into who Tutor Chirilla was, she found some crazy shiz. He had refused to pay his ex -wife merrily. child support. of over $30 ,000 for the three kids.
Echoes From The Grave: He had also been arrested for kidnapping his girlfriend. He had taped her hands, legs, and mouth with packing tape and held her down with scissors, threatening to kill her if she moved.
Echoes From The Grave: All of this. was because she was trying to break up with him.
Echoes From The Grave: He also had run the Mustang Ranch for a mobster. Do you know what the Mustang Ranch is? It's in Nevada.
michael: No.
Echoes From The Grave: All right. Well, I'll tell you. because I researched that too.
michael: Yes.
Echoes From The Grave: The Mustang Ranch was America's largest brothel at 166 acres. It opened and became Nevada's first licensed brothel in 1971 and was the most profitable brothel.
Echoes From The Grave: in the state. These things are hard to say. The opening of the Mustang Ranch helped lead to 10 out of 17 counties in the state legalizing brothels. Eventually, the owner of the brothel got arrested for... tax fraud.
Echoes From The Grave: So the state seized the ranch in 1999 and sold it on eBay for $145 ,000. So it's $145 ,100.
michael: Huh.
Echoes From The Grave: $145 ,100.
michael: this is
Echoes From The Grave: um And the new owner opened reopened the brothel like five miles away. Anyway back to Tudor. After two years of research in November of 2021, Cece gives her findings in a report to the Honolulu Police and names 77 -year -old Tudor Chirilla as a possible suspect.
Echoes From The Grave: At first, the police were skeptical. Like, she was able to do all this and get a suspect from looking in a phone book? It was a hard leap of faith for the PD to take, but after seeing some of Tudor's history, they started to get on board with Cece.
Echoes From The Grave: Which is kind of... like she found you in a phone book and that's the suspect are you for real
michael: Yeah. It's a...
Echoes From The Grave: It's wild work.
michael: Yeah, it's a... Especially because you said it happened in 2019 when they started. like
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, she started looking in 2019.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: It took two years to find this guy.
michael: Right.
Echoes From The Grave: Well, she said it took forever just to get to the seas so ah bop Bloop, bloop, bloop. Yeah, now it's back to the detectives to connect Nancy and Tudor. And honestly, it appeared that they had nothing in common.
Echoes From The Grave: At this point, Tudor is living alone in Rideau, Nevada, and HPD can't get a warrant to collect his DNA solely on Cece's genealogy research. In February of 2022, HPD partnered with Reno PD to lawfully collect tutor's abandoned dna which means they followed him and attempted to pick up like a discarded piece of chewing gum or cigarette butt stuff like that but this turned out to be crazy difficult
Echoes From The Grave: tutor was a homebody it turned out and didn't leave his apartment often his trash was in a shared receptacle so they couldn't be sure what trash was his or if it was like cross -contaminated So they couldn't do that.
Echoes From The Grave: Months went by and once this information got back to Cece she decided to go a different route. She discovered from old articles and records that Tudor and his children were estranged. So she thought if they couldn't get Tudor's DNA, maybe they could get his son John's DNA.
Echoes From The Grave: So the HPD... contacted Newport Beach in California. and ask them to seek out John. When the police asked him if he would be willing to provide dna a DNA sample, John immediately said, this is about my father, isn't it?
Echoes From The Grave: which bomb bomb bomb like imagine like you and your dad don't get along so bad like the cops come and they're like it's about my dad huh
michael: mrs
Echoes From The Grave: In April of 2022, John volunteers his DNA, and that DNA is then tested against the DNA left at the crime scene. After 50 years of waiting, they finally had a match.
Echoes From The Grave: John Chirillo was the biological child of the person who left their DNA behind at Nancy's crime scene. So that means that Nancy's killer was Tudor Chirilla.
Echoes From The Grave: But even though they have this match from John, they still need to get... a sample from Tudor himself. With assistance from the police on the mainland, they were able to obtain a warrant and on September 6th,
Echoes From The Grave: 2022 law enforcement went into tutor's apartment in reno nevada they had to let him know Why they were there. and when they said they needed DNA.
Echoes From The Grave: He said, isn't that illegal? To which they informed him, Nope, my dude, we have a warrant. Oh. I actually watched the body cam footage of this and he...
Echoes From The Grave: looks kind of stunned while they're leaving like they go in they obviously don't arrest them because they don't have 100 match yet so they go in and they like take his dna and stuff And he looks shook.
Echoes From The Grave: Like, oh my gosh, why are they doing this to me?
michael: Like after all this time.
Echoes From The Grave: He's like, it's been 50 years, can't you just like leave me alone?
michael: it
Echoes From The Grave: but um So... The time between getting his DNA and his... testing his DNA. was only two days, which honestly is kind of unheard of.
Echoes From The Grave: DNA testing is usually Something that takes forever. They usually take a while to get results back. But during that two -day waiting period, Tudor did some pretty weird shit.
Echoes From The Grave: On September 7, 2022, Tudor transferred the title of his car to his neighbor inid and attempted to commit suicide by overdosing on Tylenol.
michael: Cheers.
Echoes From The Grave: Unfortunately for this old dummy, he had actually started a fire in his apartment and in response to the fire, the fire department was able to locate him and figured out he overdosed and... they were able to save his life.
Echoes From The Grave: So sucks to be Tudor.
michael: No. He was trying to get out of this.
Echoes From The Grave: the
michael: Yes. Not having a good time
Echoes From The Grave: Mm hmm. Four days later, Honolulu's oldest unsolved homicide was no longer a mystery. And now Nancy's family gets the news they had waited 40 years, or sorry, 50 years for. war That four days later got stuck in my brain On September 14th, Tudor was arrested.
Echoes From The Grave: at the hospital from where he tried to commit suicide. where he was taken, you know. and transferred to the Reno jail. He was then extricated. Extra dated.
Echoes From The Grave: Oh, I can't talk to tonight. He was extradited to Hawaii and his bail was set. to $1 million. dollars While he was awaiting trial in jail,
Echoes From The Grave: Um, prosecution would prepare for over a year. However, on December 25th, 2023. Tudor Chirillo was taken to the Queens Medical Center for end -of -life care.
Echoes From The Grave: For the past two days, he had refused to eat, drink, or take his medications. He was pronounced dead at the hospital. So on Christmas Day 2023, the Anderson family finally got some kind of justice.
Echoes From The Grave: Her brother Jack called it Kind of poetic, since the last time we saw Nancy was on Christmas vacation in 1971. We still don't know why Tudor stabbed Nancy or their connection, but at this point I'm not sure it really matters.
Echoes From The Grave: Um, They he got some kind of justice. But that is the case of Nancy Anderson, Hawaii's oldest. cold case homicide.
michael: that I don't know how I feel about that, like, in the sense of, like... i'd want to know why even though you won't never find out why because you can't ask him
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, he he didn't Say a word. to the police
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: He wasn't giving them any information. Not helping at all. Which I guess is... His right to do. Just...
michael: Yeah, especially after going that long, and he had an established career after that, too. but's
Echoes From The Grave: He was a lawyer, but obviously he couldn't hold in his... crappy ways.
michael: ah so
Echoes From The Grave: kidnapping his girlfriend and being a brothel -er
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: I don't know what and he was doing at the brothel
michael: Yeah.
michael: He was enjoying himself at the brothel, I guess, yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: he He ran it. Yeah, he was enjoying those ladies All right, Mike. That is it. That was Nancy Anderson.
Echoes From The Grave: It was... I've never heard of this case before, which is wild considering it was the oldest cold case in Hawaii's history.
michael: Yeah, considering that like out of like all the shows that are like based off cold cases
Echoes From The Grave: who
michael: Do you think that the reason why is like... i like maybe it's more recent that like with the update that like more people are like
Echoes From The Grave: Maybe.
michael: gonna talk about it in like a year or two from now like talking about.
Echoes From The Grave: mm -hmm
michael: um oh the oldest cold case just got solved and that was you know recent and recent, like within five years.
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: So.
Echoes From The Grave: I think the show I watched came out like last year or the year before on it. So it is fairly like a recent show even.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: About 50 years.
michael: So I think that...
Echoes From The Grave: of sound.
michael: Yeah, 50 years is a long time to... It's even... more like kind of like how that story we talked about last time where um You you go your whole time like just accepting that like you're not going to get closure.
michael: So you just.
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah. You just have to deal with it.
michael: So you just accept it. Yeah. And so like to still try after 29 years.
Echoes From The Grave: And it's so sad, like... Her mom went 29 years without a like ounce of anything.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: And then it's...
michael: like not even a known like
Echoes From The Grave: What?
michael: Looking for it.
Echoes From The Grave: it's 21 years later. from her mom's death is when they finally get an answer.
michael: Yeah, and then the like justice that you think you're going to get for someone, he ends up dying in the hospital.
Echoes From The Grave: By his own accord, too.
michael: Yeah. like
Echoes From The Grave: I feel like that is like, I think one of the sisters said like, I really wish. they would have been able to take him to trial. and figure out why and then jack was like does it really matter like we got justice he's gone too and she's like yeah i guess you're right but i also like i would have been like why did you do this like
michael: Yeah, I feel like i'm a little nosy enough but also like i feel like as part of that closure like what did Bye. my like whoever that whoever they are to me what did they do to that person
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: for them to like. Especially that type of like 63 times. So then I'm like, well, what made like what did like what?
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: you know not victim blaming but like in the like what in their mind
Echoes From The Grave: What did she do?
michael: me like does she do like was it just
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: You know, she cut him off in traffic. You know what I mean? like
Echoes From The Grave: Well, here's the thing though like
michael: Just some psycho.
Echoes From The Grave: Two big questions how did you know her? And how did you get in her house?
michael: And also, why didn't you kill Jody?
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: Like I'm not like not that I want Jody to die or nothing like that, but like why?
Echoes From The Grave: No. But this was like a very... You are the one kind of murder, not... I'm sure if Jodi would have came out and was like, what are you doing? She would have also.
michael: Yeah, that's why I'm like, yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: But maybe maybe he didn't know Jodi was in there.
michael: like That's true, too if
Echoes From The Grave: Because she was in her closed bedroom sleeping
Echoes From The Grave: So many questions left. unanswered but it's solved which is ugh.
michael: Yeah, like you want to low you want a little bit more on like what caused the crime but you don't
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: You won't ever get that answer.
Echoes From The Grave: But it was solved in a super cool... Like... unusual way.
michael: Yeah, using using modern technology.
Echoes From The Grave: genetic genealogy.
michael: Yeah, like things that like ancestry .com wasn't really big until like Bed. 2010s.
Echoes From The Grave: yeah
michael: And then like more recent now.
Echoes From The Grave: And it's... crazy how many crimes it has helped solve like the East Area Rapist That's how they got him.
michael: You know, it's interesting if you like, if they like. the cold case division going back with like all the evidence they have and being able to run Some of this stuff now
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: if they
Echoes From The Grave: Well, and definitely like with the help of CODIS and stuff too.
michael: Yeah. that's ah I think that that was that that was a nice highlight of this story is that Like being able to solve it shows like The Advancement over 50 years and in like the actual crime world if you were to like actually look into some of the sciences behind the forensics and seeing What?
michael: seeing what they like. can track and everything else you'd be like oh wow they can they can identify my fingerprint off of like just a random like just a random surface of a car just because i touched a car
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, and also like... The. forethought that the detectives had back in the 70s to preserve things. in such a way that Later on they were able to be tested
michael: Yeah, and like... The fact that evidence just like especially for unsolved cases just sits there in an evidence locker until one day someone goes okay we're gonna check this stuff um
Echoes From The Grave: Well, and...
michael: again.
Echoes From The Grave: I know sometimes... with cases. That. are there for so long they eventually do like burn and get rid of the evidence so i wonder if that's just for like Solved cases.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: that after there has to be like a protocol probably like okay this case was solved we'll hold it for another 10 years for appeals and shit but then it's gone i wonder if they have that for cold cases I would assume not because it hasn't been solved and I need that shit.
michael: Yep.
Echoes From The Grave: for the future.
michael: Yeah. Yeah, I think unless like... Or if like the family's like done pursuing it or something like I feel like.
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah.
michael: uh they like i feel like there has to be some type of option there for like you're holding on to this But what is it? Because you can also later on, new crimes can connect to old crimes.
Echoes From The Grave: Mm hmm.
michael: And so I think that that might, because if you burn some evidence from there, it's like. Well, you got him on one crime. but if you couldn't tie you could tie him to the other one but you can't charge him for it because you got rid of the evidence i think that that's the part of it that would be tough with cold cases and justifying getting rid of it.
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah. I'm glad this case was solved because, honestly... I... Don't really like unsolved cases. They irk me. I'm like I need to know what happened. Where is Jodi?
Echoes From The Grave: Back to last.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: week's case.
michael: You know what I'm saying?
Echoes From The Grave: Where?
michael: start using our Start using our time to look in a phone book and start calling some of these people and try and track them down so we can see what they're doing now.
Echoes From The Grave: The heck?
Echoes From The Grave: Look. just look up the
michael: Get a little life update.
Echoes From The Grave: Where was she at? Like Minnesota? Just look up the... Phone book 19. 90s, whatever. You start going through. Find that palm print.
michael: Yeah, and I I think that's the hardest part too, is that like, if you wanted an update after all that time, especially if someone was traumatized like that and you bring it back up after, you know.
Echoes From The Grave: you
michael: 50 years.
Echoes From The Grave: That's like the craziest thing to me with unsolved cases. If you don't find their body, it's like. The world is so... Big.
michael: mm -hmm
Echoes From The Grave: in shes She could be literally anywhere.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: that all That also like boggles my brain. I'm like... You're never gonna find her if they don't want you to find her.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: Ugh.
michael: I think that that's the hardest part about unsolved and cold cases is that you may never get the answer, even if you have. things like more evidence popping up it doesn't mean that you're gonna like look at what we just talked about they had They had some evidence in 2001 to look again.
Echoes From The Grave: <unk> Well, yeah, they They finally got his damn... DNA out of the towel.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: In 2003, yeah. And it still took... 20 years to get him.
michael: Yeah, and then
Echoes From The Grave: Ugh.
michael: and then like just the advancement of that genealogy so it's like you could still get in you're like okay well it shouldn't take that long and it still takes another two decades yeah that's
Echoes From The Grave: Well, yeah, and the thing is, if... Jack never reached out to Cece. Like, if he never saw... Whatever he had seen I think he saw a documentary or something about it if he had never seen any of that information about genetic genealogy He never would have reached out to Cece and - this case wouldn't have been solved Because he didn't do like enough. crimes or bad enough crimes to be in CODIS.
michael: Yeah, and like they didn't log them so he For some reason, after stabbing someone 63 times, that's the other thing. I wish I knew what he was doing all that time after. was it just He was like, okay, well.
michael: He got out of his system and now he's like I don't want to do that again
Echoes From The Grave: Listen. The thing about him kidnapping his girlfriend?
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: How did... I don't know what timeframe that was in. Unfortunately, they didn't say. but um mayte I guess it was before CODIS was a thing.
Echoes From The Grave: Because you would think if you kidnapped someone and... threatened to murder them with scissors, your DNA would finally be in the database. Like...
michael: yeah i don't Yeah, I don't know what that would look like or how like charges uh that were pressed or anything
Echoes From The Grave: Or if she had them drop it.
michael: Okay. Yeah, exactly. like If... Bye. they I don't know. I don't know how they resolve situations back then, too.
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, I'm not sure. Well, you know, like way back when. if it was a domestic dispute if neither one of them wanted to do something nothing was going to happen
michael: Yeah, it just kind of. Kind of just plays into the timelines of... um The. criminal uh system pretty much the crime system a justice system is what I'm looking for. um uh plays a factor in uh catching up in.
michael: um being able to identify crimes and protocols to make sure that people are either safe or at least get logged for violent offenses, even if they're not formally charged.
Echoes From The Grave: yeah I don't know If I agree, like if... I don't know when they started doing CODIS. But.
Echoes From The Grave: I feel like if you... even if they don't pursue it and the charges are dropped. you should be in some sort of database like You tried to... You kidnapped somebody.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: We should probably look out for you. But I don't know. And that was the case of Nancy Elaine Anderson. That was a sad one, but with a good ending.
Echoes From The Grave: Like... as good as it can be, I guess. They caught the dude who did it.
michael: Yeah. And so at least like you said, we got closure on that. Her family got closure.
Echoes From The Grave: Thank you.
michael: Even after all that time.
Echoes From The Grave: They were able to know. Who, just not why.
michael: Yeah. And sometimes just finding out the... the Killer gut. a sense of, you know, like he's no longer able to hurt anyone or anything else too.
Echoes From The Grave: It's kind of like a...
michael: Knowing that.
Echoes From The Grave: divine justice.
michael: Yeah, like wish he would have been able to but then you know who said it
Echoes From The Grave: like
michael: Then you have to go through the whole court process and everything else.
Echoes From The Grave: what a shitty asshole not only did you murder their fucking sister you took away the why like
michael: so
Echoes From The Grave: on your own accord too.
michael: yeah
Echoes From The Grave: Leave you - hate when serial killers or murderers or killers in general, or they don't give the why. and they go to their grave with it just fucking you're in jail you've been caught just tell me why
michael: yeah i think i think that they want to keep that because they're like if they keep that then that's just for them and it's more of that like mind fuck
Echoes From The Grave: Uh... Like a it's a trophy type of, not a physical trophy, but a mental trophy they have over those people.
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: yeah I got you.
michael: Yeah, and being able because if you so do that it's like well now they're gonna find out and you know so i think that's just another way that they kind of hold on to it as a way to like do their own little like tormenting of or even like taunting of yeah you caught me but you'll never find out why Or how many?
michael: so
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, who knows if he's murdered anybody else at this point.
michael: Yeah, just because in like same thing just because ah There's no record of it. Doesn't mean that. It didn't happen in anywhere else before they started doing COVID and everything.
Echoes From The Grave: Alright. Alright Mike, that's all I have for you tonight.
michael: Well I appreciate it. I'm glad that we got a story with an ending. we got
Echoes From The Grave: Yes.
michael: we got some justice And we now know that Tutor will not be haunting anybody.
Echoes From The Grave: Hopefully. Maybe he's like haunting Cece.
michael: Yeah, well, I was just... a think Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: Or his son.
michael: And we're done.
Echoes From The Grave: You asshole, you gave me up.
michael: Yay. But because because there's some good in the world. um You know someone able to give their blood sample up to catch a killer so
Echoes From The Grave: Yeah, even if it was his dad.
michael: It was an interesting. It was an interesting and informative story to learn a little bit more about. The. type of genealogy and some other words that we may or may not pronounce properly.
Echoes From The Grave: genetic genealogy.
michael: genetic geneal genealogy
Echoes From The Grave: Okay. Parabon Nanolabs.
michael: prince
Echoes From The Grave: I want to apologize for my terrible speech tonight. I thought I would be smart and drink coffee. And now my mouth is dried out and I can't talk.
michael: Yes.
Echoes From The Grave: That was my problem.
michael: But at least you pronounced it. if you pronounce phenotype right so
Echoes From The Grave: I did. i so I slowed down for that. I was like phenotype.
michael: it Had to sound out the whole, all syllables.
Echoes From The Grave: I was like oh shit. Once I got to it I was like.
michael: Yes.
Echoes From The Grave: Don't mess this one up
michael: Yeah.
Echoes From The Grave: ah All right, Mike, I hope you have a lovely. Evening. Night.
michael: Same to you.
Echoes From The Grave: whatever.
michael: and and we will do this All over again. for another episode at a later day.
Echoes From The Grave: Yes, sir. And this has been at Echoes from the Grave. I hope everyone has a lovely day and goodbye.
