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Three Layoffs in Three Years with Julie
96 Plays1 month ago
Today I chat with Julie who is no stranger to layoffs. In fact, she's on her third. How is she coping? Did it get easier each time? And what's it like to be job searching as a pregnant woman? We cover it all.
Here are links to resources Julie and I discussed:
Julie's Substack: https://www.thismightbecringe.com/ilostmyjob (get her free content and two months free of her premium content!)
'Never Search Alone' (book) & Job Search Councils (job finding groups): https://www.phyl.org/
Digital Detox: https://www.breakfreefromtheinternet.com/p/digital-detox
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Personal Update
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello, welcome everybody. My name is Jackie and I lost my job.
00:00:24
Speaker
Alright, welcome back everybody. i know it's been a minute since I have posted a new episode. i am sorry for that. July has been a little hectic with the holiday for the fourth and I've had some exciting things going on too that I'll share some updates about soon but I am grateful to be back today with a fresh episode.
Job Search Challenges
00:00:47
Speaker
To kick things off today, i want to share a quick story about my job search and application processes. Now, I'm sure many of you listening know and can empathize with the fact that applications are getting wilder by the day.
00:01:04
Speaker
It's no longer just sending your resume. You're constantly answering a bunch of bunch of questions and having to sometimes rewrite your entire life history in novel form if you're you know applying through Workday.
00:01:19
Speaker
And I came across a particularly interesting application for this one company. Now, I'm going through, i added my resume, I am filling in all of the different question fields, and then I get to this required exercise.
00:01:36
Speaker
Now, these types of exercises, i like to call them homework assignments, ah this is something that's very typical of an interview process when you're later in the process, closer to say a final interview where you may be asked to put together a presentation deck or a use case or you know some kind of like mock work essentially.
00:02:00
Speaker
So this is not something that's uncommon. This was, however, the first time that I had seen it as a requirement in order to apply for the position. And in the talent acquisition world, what this looks like is ah it's called a sourcing exercise.
00:02:16
Speaker
Basically, the company asks you to go out and find X number of candidates for X type of job. Again, not super uncommon in the middle of interviews.
00:02:27
Speaker
Not something that is almost ever required in order to just submit your application. i honestly was quite stunned and did not know how to go about this at first um because I just find it a little silly that in order to get your application into their system, you would have to do this kind of fake work.
00:02:55
Speaker
And there's still no guarantee that you're getting any kind of response from this company and no guarantee that you'll even get you know an interview or anything like that. So just seemed like quite a lot of effort to put in to potentially just get a boilerplate rejection email, if that.
00:03:14
Speaker
Anyway, I say all this to say application processes are getting crazier by the day, it seems. And i encourage everybody just don't lower your standards just because a company is putting something like that out there.
00:03:31
Speaker
And just to be clear, I did not end up putting in an application for this specific company.
Introducing Julie: Layoff Experiences
00:03:38
Speaker
But on to more interesting things. Today, I have a really awesome interview with Julie.
00:03:46
Speaker
Her story is really unique in many ways. um Julie, of course, has been laid off. And then she got laid off again. And then she got laid off again.
00:03:59
Speaker
So we chatted a lot about what it was like to go through not only one, not only two, but three different layoffs in a manner of about three years and what the similarities and differences were how it impacted her each of those times.
00:04:17
Speaker
She brings some really insightful thoughts, and some really awesome tools that she shares with me. So all of that will be linked in the episode description. So if you want to find anything that Julie mentions in the interview today, take a look at the episode description.
00:04:37
Speaker
And with that all said, let's go ahead and get into this interview. Julie, it is so good to talk with you. Thank you so much for chatting with me. I always appreciate it.
00:04:49
Speaker
Thank you for having me, Jackie. I'm really excited to be here and have this conversation and just be a part of something that I think is making a big difference already. Oh, thank you. I know I'm equally excited. We've got a lot to cover. We've got a lot to cover because i when I found you on LinkedIn, you had a story. you have i am i am really excited to dig into this. And I know excited is maybe excited isn't the best word, but I'm excited too. It's okay.
00:05:22
Speaker
All things considered. ah Well, let's start with this. Can you tell us a little bit about what is kind of your professional background? What is the work that you've been doing? And tell us a little bit about just what you enjoy about that kind of work.
00:05:38
Speaker
Yeah. Most recently, I've been working as a product manager in the consumer app space. So specifically in like the apps that we use on our phones, I've worked at various sized companies at various stages of their growth cycle. Most recently, I was at a company that I like to say is kind of like calm or headspace for a very specific audience. So daily content and things like that.
00:06:01
Speaker
And there, I really was focused on like the community experience. And I really loved that. I loved this focus on how we get people to talk about the things they're doing every day with each other and how they kind of get to engage more with one another.
00:06:13
Speaker
So I've been a product manager for four years. ah Prior to that, I was in customer support and operations and systems at a couple of direct-to-consumer apparel companies, ed tech in there. i've kind of you know worked at various places, managing teams, managing the operations that make those teams tick.
00:06:31
Speaker
And that's kind of what eventually bridged me into product management. I love it. And you mentioned you've worked for a range of companies at like different times in their company life cycle. Do you have a favorite? Are you more of the startup person? Are you more of the like well-established company person? Yeah, that's a great question. you know, for me, it's more about like the teams that I'm working with, because I worked at those, you know, post IPO public companies, but internally they're really scrappy still.
00:07:02
Speaker
And then I've worked at startups in like growth stages, but felt, you know, pretty like mature. So for me, it's more about like team culture. I'm a big, like culture is the best, you know, culture is king kind of person.
00:07:16
Speaker
i think I know that I'm not really into the seed, like really, really early stage startup. I think like that growth stage where I'm where I really like to shine. You know, there's there's brand recognition, there's excitement, you kind of get that pulse from consumers, and then you can keep going with that momentum.
00:07:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I'm with you I've worked at Mostly like smaller companies and the startup-y. I will say I've kind of always been of the mindset of like this the startup-y companies, you get, there's a little bit more excitement. There's a lot like when you have something that's already got that brand recognition, but like could take it to the next level. It's fun to watch that grow to...
00:07:57
Speaker
um and You can change so much in a startup company, which is fun too, when you're not like, oh, I have to ask my boss's boss's boss'es boss's boss for approval to like change this font from Times New Roman to Comic Sans, which nobody's going to approve anyways.
00:08:13
Speaker
ah Totally. Now, you know, like I said earlier, you've got a very intriguing story. So let's start with this. Tell me about your first layoff.
00:08:24
Speaker
When did that happen? And what was that? How did it impact you? Yeah, so my first layoff was February of 2022. So over three years now at this point, maybe it's like the second wave of COVID pandemic layoffs, right? The first kind of really impacting those those industries that like travel and and you know the industries that were really affected.
00:08:48
Speaker
i It was at a public company, so a larger company. I was on the product team there, product manager. And it had the company had been in the news for various stock shareholder stuff like that. right um We brought in the consulting firm and it is one of those consulting firms that is kind of known for, you bring them in, people are going to be let go. so For about a month or so, I kind of smelled something going on.
00:09:15
Speaker
um I was relatively newer to the team. I'd been at the company for over a year at that point, but had transitioned into the role only about like six or seven months or so. So I was like, I think this is going to happen.
00:09:27
Speaker
think I'll be one of the ones. And I was sort of mentally prepared. but didn't really know what that meant. Um, I knew people that had been laid off, but today I know probably three times as many people that had been laid off. So there's that difference there.
00:09:39
Speaker
So I was like mentally prepared, but wasn't really doing anything to really prepare. So ah day hit, it was in fact a layoff. I was in fact impacted. It was bigger than think we all thought it was like a fairly, you know big one. Um, the CEO of the company ended up stepping down that same day. So it was like a big deal.
00:09:58
Speaker
And because of that, because it was in the news before i'd announced it, i was already getting like LinkedIn messages from people before I'd even put anything out there. Like, hey, so this is happening. Are you impacted? If you are, I've got a role, blah, blah, blah. So was this like really overwhelming, like flood of responses. and then when I did post that I was, was impacted and looking, it was even more.
00:10:20
Speaker
I just remember being like, you know, really overwhelmed. I hate to say that there is like a good time to be laid off, but this felt like not a bad time. It was the company's first big layoff. So i felt packages were fairly generous. So I felt very secure in terms of like, you know, my livelihood and I was new to, you know, I just sort of bridged into product management from, was kind of on the systems team at this company first supporting member support.
00:10:48
Speaker
you know, i I was new. So I was, I was eager to kind of jump back in and get more experience. You know, I knew that in my perfect world, I'd have spent more time there and I've gotten more, you know, on my resume in terms of like years of experience. But i remember just like looking through all these messages and emails and being like, I'm taking a week, I'll respond to you in a week. And like, I had hundreds of messages to go through. I went through all those, reached out to the people that I was interested in, say said no thank you to the people that I wasn't Interviewed with a couple places, ended up getting an offer within like a month to the day. I signed my offer letter with the company that I went to next and then said, I'll start in a month.
00:11:25
Speaker
So I need more time. I'll start in a month and took more time. And so that was, you know, it definitely felt scary, but it felt like I could very clearly like see the light at the end of the tunnel and definitely, you know, made it through and was like, okay, that's passed me.
Coping and Recovery Post-Layoffs
00:11:41
Speaker
Yeah. And number one, good for you for taking time off in between. Some healing time when you've had something like that happen is very necessary, especially when it was, ah you know, as you said, there's no good time to be laid off, but there are certainly not crappy times to be laid off. And that was, that was one of them, right? We had that whole massive COVID layoffs, which were awful,
00:12:06
Speaker
Shortly after that, at least it felt shortly after that, there was that great rehiring or whatever anybody wants to call it. And being able to have that where it was, okay, a month to the day of being laid off to having an offer, there's a little bit more of that.
00:12:25
Speaker
comfort, I think, in being able to say, I'm going to take an extra month to like do whatever I need to do. I am curious to hear, you mentioned that you know with your previous company there, they brought in this consulting firm, you kind of had a feeling things were coming.
00:12:43
Speaker
Do you feel like that impacted the way that the layoff impacted you, right? Do you feel like it made it any easier knowing that like this may be coming?
00:12:56
Speaker
To some extent, when it happened, was like, yeah, that makes sense. I saw, you know, that was very much the writings on the wall. I understand why that happened. And I i understand why I'm in this group. It still was hard. And it was still, i still had my like, why me moments and, you know, feeling sorry for myself and feeling sorry for some of the people that were let go. There were people that were let go that I really was not expecting to get let go.
00:13:18
Speaker
um So I think that was surprising. It made it really hard to like focus beforehand, having that sort of like distraction of, you know, just everything going on. And then internally just being like, everything's fine, right? Where, you know, not that that was just sort of those that was my messaging of just, you know,
00:13:38
Speaker
got to keep moving, got to keep going despite what may be coming. So that was a bit distracting. i think it like definitely softened the blow because it wasn't a surprise. It wasn't just like, what's this meeting on my calendar, right? It's like, like I understand why this morning I only have access to Google Calendar and Zoom.
00:13:55
Speaker
This must be happening now. did So did you get one of those like random meetings that just, or did like your boss just like randomly call you that morning? So there was an email that went out in the morning company-wide and it was like if you are impacted you know some someone on your team some leadership will be reaching out to chat chat with you at some point today so it was it was it was obvious um yeah yeah like I lost slack the night before That's so wild to me.
00:14:27
Speaker
I have heard of something like that happening, like at companies where you get the morning email that, hey, there are going to be layoffs today. you know, if you've if you receive a second email, you're impacted. And if you don't, you're fine or something.
00:14:41
Speaker
That is psychological torture. And such a horrific way to notify people to say, hey, everybody, guess what?
00:14:52
Speaker
This is happening. You're going to find out at some point today. Like, not even have any structured, like, you know,
00:15:03
Speaker
because everybody's got to be sitting there being like, oh my God, this could be my last day. I don't know. Everybody's nervous system is on high alert. You're sitting any call or text or email or whatever is kind of like, is that the one? Is that, oh my God, to put people through that is insane.
00:15:22
Speaker
yeah I actually think it was worse for the people that weren't laid off because everybody that was like, I woke up and i I didn't have Slack anymore. I didn't, you know, I had an email, I had Google calendar and I had Zoom says okay, this is obvious, right? Like, got it.
00:15:36
Speaker
I think it was probably worse for everyone that didn't know. Cause they, you know like you said, they were logged into everything and kind of have like this business as usual day.
00:15:47
Speaker
I'm like, my nervous system is amping up just thinking about this because I don't know how I would be able to spend a day sitting there. I mean, if they measured productivity at all that day, I'm sure it absolutely tanked and nobody got a single freaking thing done unless they knew who was being laid off.
00:16:05
Speaker
If I'm remembering correctly, my call was pretty early, right? So I just, I wanted to have the call to like confirm and then wrap it up and then go about my day, I think. So what were those, those first couple of days after the layoff? What was that like for you?
00:16:20
Speaker
I was, I remember feeling really panicked at first, you know, I knew that I was laid off, but I didn't get any sort of severance information until later that day. So like that waiting period was a lot. And I remember when I got my email, I was My friend took me out to dinner and we went to a bar after. And so I was like at the bar with friend. I was like, came through. I was like, okay, can live for a little bit.
00:16:41
Speaker
You know, and that was a little bit of a relief. i remember feeling just really like foggy and not knowing what to do with my days. I was just kind of like, you know, I almost felt like a little like LinkedIn zombie the first two days or so. I was just like parked on the couch, scrolling LinkedIn, answering people or not because I was technically on a break, but I couldn't peel myself away from it.
00:17:05
Speaker
You know, I think there's a lot of, when there's so many people impacted too, there's a lot of like, you know, texting people. And I think I went out to coffee with like my boss that week might've been the week after, you know, just like connecting with people and, you know, making sure everyone else is feeling all right.
00:17:20
Speaker
but yeah, I hadn't thought about, you know, although I saw it happening, I hadn't really thought about, okay, if this does happen, like, what do I want to do next? Right. So I think I was just trying to like get the lay of the land there. Again, I was new in this part of my career. So.
00:17:33
Speaker
was sort of figure out what can I even get now, right? So I think it was it was this mix of like worry, but also this like weird comfort that, you know, things will work out.
00:17:45
Speaker
And I didn't have any past experience to point me towards that. But I don't know. I just like, guess like if I'm getting all these emails already, something's going to land, right? And sure enough, it did. So. And I bet the combination of kind of getting all those messages, right, that gives you a little bit more room to feel confidence that the next thing is closer than you think.
00:18:08
Speaker
And when you're getting a severance package that makes you go, okay, I don't have to panic as much. I can see the combination of those two things offering a little bit more space to breathe,
00:18:22
Speaker
Not that it takes everything away and it's like, okay, let's throw a party. Like this is the greatest thing that's happened to me in my life kind of deal, but more of like a, okay, when you get that initial panic, there's a lot of the unknown. Like, am I going to be able to afford my groceries tomorrow? Am I ever going to get another job?
00:18:39
Speaker
If I get a job, is it even going to be in this new area that I've gotten myself into? And as I'm sure you can probably attest to, when you switch job fields,
00:18:52
Speaker
when you are applying to new jobs, you are essentially now entry level again. Regardless of like how many years of unrelated experience you have, you're now competing against people who have tons of experience. And if you only have like six months to a year of experience, now you're like, I have to go back to competing for these early career entry level type roles because my relevant experience is that.
00:19:19
Speaker
ah It's crazy.
Pregnancy and Job Search
00:19:21
Speaker
i I will say I am glad for you that like, if nothing else, at least this was at a time where you were getting your inbox flooded and had that opportunity to make that transition.
00:19:36
Speaker
i agree. I think if I'd been where I was in my career in a market like we're seeing today, it would have been very different. I might have gone back to what I was doing before or you know, I, I, The net would have, it would have been a very different, I think, situation.
00:19:49
Speaker
But yeah, was lucky. I think, you know, I knew, knew I'd have to find a place that would value the experience that I brought beyond just the product management, right? So because that, I did focus on earlier stage startups, folks that, you know, kind of wanted, okay, yes, have startup experience, you experience, you have, you're able to work well cross-functionally.
00:20:11
Speaker
And that's, I ended up at a very early stage startup. So now we' are brought up you're at your new job. You're at this new startup. Things are going well for a bit.
00:20:23
Speaker
And then what happens? Things are going well for a bit. I started April of 2022. Fun team, fun office, fun founders, you know, aligned with the mission, was excited to be there.
00:20:39
Speaker
then after the summer, they let go of a couple of people, right? Just like, I think that's when the VC market started to turn a lot and the fundraising and in that whole, that's kind of, I think when we first started to see investors just get a little bit tighter with purse strings and all of that.
00:20:56
Speaker
And so, you know, a couple of people were let go after summer and basically between then and March of 2023, there were small groups of people. we other It was a small company.
00:21:07
Speaker
When I joined, i was one of 30 somethings. So one or two or three people at a time, you know, is actually like a pretty big piece of the company, even though it's just a few people.
00:21:18
Speaker
So that kind of continued through March, 2023, when my team was essentially laid off. Product and engineering, mostly as a whole, was laid off. There was one person to kind of do all of it that was left on that side of things.
00:21:32
Speaker
And actually it was technically a furlough. So it might seem a bit pedantic, but I bring it up because I'm technically still I'm furloughed because there's a potential that my job could be made available.
00:21:44
Speaker
I could be brought back, but it means that there is no dissolution or separation agreement. So. Right. Which I imagine, should you, you know, should you attempt to file for unemployment, I imagine a furlough might impact one's ability to do that.
00:22:02
Speaker
in York state, you are at least still eligible for unemployment when you're on a furlough, which is very lucky. Um, especially because I was 23 weeks pregnant when I was let go in ah the March of this year of that year. So that was an added hurdle that I hadn't had before 11 months later and a very similar position, but this time I felt like I had a really, really strict timeline that I had to adhere to. Right.
00:22:29
Speaker
Like babies come in, babies come when they come. There wasn't that same security. I didn't have the name. and news and, and, you know, fanfare around this one.
00:22:42
Speaker
So there were no inbounds before I announced and very few after. And so very different, I think I was in a very different headspace. I was just like, let's do this, like put to the pavement.
00:22:55
Speaker
i was having visions of not finding a job and then being in labor and being like, oh, I have to answer that interview request. Like having these, these daydreams of, of that happening.
00:23:07
Speaker
So yeah, it was very different. The market had started to turn. and yeah, my situation was different. My God. Now, when this round, so this this was your second layoff.
00:23:18
Speaker
It's my second layoff. In this one, did you have a feeling that this was coming? Were there any signs or things that made you go like, ooh, layoffs might be on the way?
00:23:29
Speaker
i probably, in hindsight, I think i can now see ah those things that, were pointing me to, yeah this is going to happen, but i didn't want to see it.
00:23:41
Speaker
And there was this moment in like maybe January after the new year, I was like, I wasn't pregnant. I'd probably start casually looking at jobs, but I can't really afford to leave and start over right now. So I'm just going to stick with this until, you know, there was just some, some writing on the wall, but it was almost like to protect my mental health. I didn't let myself believe that it was happening or that it could happen.
00:24:03
Speaker
So it was a surprise and that meeting specifically was a surprise. that I really wasn't, it was just kind of like at you know a regular meeting that we always have um and was definitely not expecting it.
00:24:15
Speaker
So was this like ah like a regular one-on-one meeting or a regular team meeting where nobody else showed up to the team meeting and you're like, where is everybody? there was a regular team meeting where everybody on the call was let go. So it was like our normal standup and then it was like, hey guys.
00:24:32
Speaker
Oh my God, they told you all together? Yeah. What was it like learning about that in a group? It made it an easier pill to swallow because I was like, well, we're all, you know, it's just happening to all of us, right? And there was this like immediate confirmation of who <unk> like, no, it's like the team. So that, I guess I can get behind that.
00:24:52
Speaker
There's at least that like camaraderie of like, okay, we're all in this together. Like, you know, so I think there was you that. It was really unexpected. So I almost just like, yeah It took a moment for the news to to hit.
00:25:05
Speaker
Even sometimes it's like, you know, I've heard of the surprise meeting or whatever. And you're like, oh, that's what that is. um are One of the co-founders joined the call. He's not usually there. was like, oh, what's he doing here? You know, I wasn't even i didn't even think that was suspect.
00:25:18
Speaker
So it was like, they said, and I was like, wait, what? It was like a record scratch moment. I'm like, wait, what? think to your point, there's no right way to do it because at the end of the day, you're stripping people of their jobs.
00:25:31
Speaker
And there's just no good way to be like, you're not employed anymore, not of your own volition. So i I have space for empathy for people who have to make those calls, make those decisions.
00:25:49
Speaker
i hold I hold space for that as much as as much as one can. Well, so tell me a bit, because this this second layoff was obviously different in that, number one, it's not like the warning signs were flashing in your face.
00:26:04
Speaker
And number two, you're dealing with a pregnancy. How did that impact you with this being the second layoff you've had in basically like a year and a half? It was one of those moments where I feel like my priorities were just so crystal clear.
00:26:19
Speaker
And actually I thought I was going to have to leave that call early to go for one of my scans at that point. And the call is very short, so I didn't have didn't have to leave early. But it was this really interesting like moment of juxtaposition where I just got delivered this horrible news.
00:26:34
Speaker
And then I'm like packing up to go with my husband to like get a scan and you know find out everything's great. And it was a great appointment and all of that. So this really interesting moment of duality where like this awful thing happened. And then the reminder of like,
00:26:48
Speaker
this is kind of what matters. So that sort of became like my anchor. And if anybody is listening who has children, like it just grows when they are, when they are born and when they get here. But that was really this moment of like, yeah, this is the stuff that matters. Like my family matters, my health, you know, what I'm building personally.
00:27:09
Speaker
And I'm really motivated to try to find a job now so that I can support, you know, my family and all of that. So It was sort of this moment of of, there was a lot of panic and fear and like, you know, if I don't find a job, it is, it will be not good.
00:27:23
Speaker
but it was also like this motivation, not to say that I found a job only because I'm motivated because there are plenty of motivated job seekers that, you know, look for things for a long, long time, but it did just offer this, like this perspective that I think I needed.
00:27:39
Speaker
I love that perspective because it can be so easy to, and And rightfully so, falling in that pit of despair of, i am pregnant, I need a job, i need to be able to afford and you know feed my family and what's next. And now the job market isn't as good as it was during the first layoff. And it can be so easy to fall into that and let that kind of lead the way.
00:28:06
Speaker
i love that you reframed it and turned it into, i am going to do this. i you know i will do what it takes to... get there to feed my family that my family is my guiding star in a positive way and not letting that drag you into despair. And it can be, you know, it's not easy. It's not as easy as to to just everybody will sit there and be like, just be glad, you know, enjoy the vacation, enjoy that you don't have to work when you're pregnant. Like people say the most well-intentioned, but horribly timed things.
00:28:42
Speaker
And it's not always as easy as just saying, Oh, you know what? I lost my job and I'm pregnant, but you're right. Like, let me just think about it positively. You really have to find a way to buy into that idea, which is not easy. I'm glad you were able to do it though, because that's something that can keep you going in those really tough moments.
00:29:06
Speaker
Yeah. And I will say also, it's not all, it's like, that wasn't always my mindset, right? Like I think there were very much moments where I was feeling really down and really sorry for myself and scared and just not being able to see the future clearly. I mean, it was weird. I could see like a very specific part of my future very clearly. And then this other part, I just didn't know how that was going to shape up and, you know, easy to get consumed in that. But I had that, this like guiding light to come back to time and time again, which, which definitely was helpful, but it was, you know, I, for anyone listening, I don't want it to be seen as it's as simple as just, I'm going to decide to focus on this.
00:29:45
Speaker
Cause I know that that is hard. And I know that's advice that that's not always welcome. Yeah. But it the The trick is obviously not wanting to make it seem as easy as just think of it better.
00:29:59
Speaker
It's also, it's so easy to lose yourself in the despair that there is that personal piece where you have to find something that picks you up.
00:30:09
Speaker
You have to, or you or you will stay in the despair And it's not, you know, i I never want anybody to feel like at fault for their feelings because I don't believe in faulting anybody for feelings. You have feelings, they are feelings, they are valid.
00:30:25
Speaker
You also want to be able to find something to do with those feelings because if you do sit in despair for too much and too long and you just let that be your life. It's so consuming that you just get stuck there, which is why I advocate for everybody getting the hell off of LinkedIn as much as you can, because LinkedIn is the ultimate pit of despair right now of like...
00:30:45
Speaker
hey, I've been unemployed for two years and I can't afford my mortgage. And like these horrible stories that you're just like, oh my God. But when you see all of them, all of the awful story after story, it's so easy to make that your mindset of, I am going to be unemployed for two years.
00:31:02
Speaker
I'm never going to get a job. What if I lose my mortgage? And we put all this hypothetical stress on ourselves that may or may not come to pass, but feels real in the moment.
00:31:12
Speaker
And we need to be careful with not making ourself feel that stress that we just don't like. If if it's not happening right now, do what you can to push those thoughts away so that you're not adding that onto your plate unnecessarily.
00:31:26
Speaker
i would agree with that. I would take it a step further and like get off screens and go outside. yeah Touch grass. that's that's I would take it that step further. No, I think that's a really good point.
00:31:37
Speaker
um And one thing I actually did when I was job searching was I went into this slight Facebook group that I'm not really really active in anymore, but it was like a mothers in tech on Facebook. And I was just like, hey, has anybody been laid off while they were pregnant and get an offer and get full parental leave? How did that go? what was And I just like hearing those stories was really empowering. It was almost like, oh that's possible. And it kind of just like let um let me know, let my brain know, like that is possible.
00:32:11
Speaker
this happen to other people, you know, it's also possible not to, but it's kind of like that opposite effect of of let me go seek out real proof that what I'm trying to do can happen.
00:32:22
Speaker
Yeah. and And I am curious to hear the job search after this layoff was clearly very different because again, you're not being you know hit up with hundreds of LinkedIn messages. you're you know Now it needs to be more ah proactive type search.
00:32:38
Speaker
And on top of that, you're already pregnant. And for for folks who who may not have thought about this, when you are a woman who's pregnant and you're job searching, One of the big struggles is, do I tell the company now?
00:32:54
Speaker
Do I wait to tell them when I'm employed? When do I tell them? how far along like How far along you are in your pregnancy also impacts that. And yes, there are laws against pregnancy discrimination, right? Employers can't decide not to hire you just because you're pregnant.
00:33:12
Speaker
However, you would have to prove that in a court of right? in order to win a claim like that. So even if you say, you know, oh, well, this I'm going to interview with this employer.
00:33:25
Speaker
I know they can't discriminate against me because I'm pregnant. I'm going to tell them I'm pregnant. And then you come to find out you don't get the job, but they only interviewed other men and one of the men gets the job.
00:33:37
Speaker
If you want to fight them on ah on a discrimination claim, you have to prove that the singular reason they did not hire you or an influential reason they did not hire you was your pregnancy. How are you going to have any data to support that claim, right?
00:33:51
Speaker
So it's easy enough to say, oh well, employers can't hire or can't decide not to hire you because you're pregnant. Yeah, but you have to prove that that's what happened.
00:34:02
Speaker
And employers move in a way that makes it very difficult to prove that. So I do just want to put that out there for anybody who has not had to think about that.
00:34:15
Speaker
So now, Julie, let me ask again. So how did this job search differ for you this time? Yeah, thank you for sharing in that context because you said it much more beautifully than I would have. But that is exactly what was weighing on me. That that was a big part of it was this battle of do I, what do I, do I tell? When do I tell?
00:34:35
Speaker
i like to think I'm a fairly honest person. My integrity is fairly important to me. Nobody's perfect, but like, I like to think I'm pretty integral. And so in my perfect world, I would have said it immediately, like on a recruiter call, like, oh, by the way, right. I'm pregnant. I'll be going on leave, you know, here. What does the company do to support that?
00:34:55
Speaker
But I'm very aware of the fact that we do not live in a perfect world. So part of my, you know, reaching out and reading some of those posts and, and, on the internet was really about, you know, one, just getting like positive stories, but also like how other people navigated it. And what felt the best to me was to not say anything, do my best to vet their parental leave policy while I was interviewing if I could. And just some context, a lot of times parental leave specifically is a benefit that has some sort of like 10 year vesting requirement. So a lot of companies say you're eligible for
00:35:30
Speaker
the full thing on day one, but a lot of companies say like after six months, you're eligible for it or after a year even. And so that was something, you know, how do you ask that without raising red flags? And so like, that was, you know, okay, I'm going to vet that. I'm going to go through this interview process and I'm going to see what happens.
00:35:45
Speaker
I didn't let anyone's policy deter me from applying because I thought anything can be negotiated. And if I had an in-person interview, then might my strategy would have changed. I probably...
00:35:58
Speaker
would have seen how I could dress. And if I couldn't hide it, would have come queen, right? Either like make it make a comment when I was there beforehand. But that was sort of the plan that I went in with was just, you know, information gathering quietly.
00:36:12
Speaker
and then i and ultimately decided after offer. But, you know, that's, let's talk about that in a minute. Yeah. And I hate that that that even has to be a consideration. And to your point, you are looking at companies, some of them have policies where like, yes, you have maternity leave, it it starts on day one, or it starts in six months, or, you know, for the Family Medical Leave Act, FMLA, which is just basic job protection, right?
00:36:44
Speaker
FMLA, what that does is it allows you to take up to, I believe, 12 weeks of unpaid leave where a company cannot eliminate your job with an asterisk.
00:36:54
Speaker
Technically, there are situations where they can, um but in general, they can't just say, oh, she's on leave. We're firing her because we need somebody to be here, right?
00:37:07
Speaker
Even FMLA You do not qualify for FMLA unless you've been at the company for one year, you've worked a certain number of hours, and you are either in a local office or within a certain mileage of a certain number of employees.
00:37:25
Speaker
And the company has to have, I believe, at least 50 employees in order for FMLA to apply. So there are so many loopholes that That even if you join a company, there is no guarantee that they will protect your job, especially if you are currently pregnant.
00:37:43
Speaker
So the biggest safety net you have is, well, they can't decide not to hire you because you're pregnant. And even then, they still do.
00:37:54
Speaker
You just have to prove it. Job seeking as a pregnant woman is crazy. awful, horrible. And I can't imagine what that must have been like to have to go through, especially on a second layoff.
00:38:08
Speaker
Yeah, right. Exactly. it was, I already had this, had the past happen, had gone through it once and gone through it again. and yeah, it felt really different the second time around. lot more at stake.
00:38:19
Speaker
You know, you laid out, it did not qualify for FMLA anywhere. so yeah, it was definitely, you know, just again, still cast a really wide net. I think my first interview was scheduled within, definitely within 24 hours. It might have been within 12 hours or not 12 hours, no, within 24 hours of being laid off. Like I had a call scheduled because I'd had a couple of recruiters in my inbox kind of that I was ignoring because it's like, I'm not looking for a job.
00:38:44
Speaker
Changed my tune on that really quickly, reached out to those folks. So I, my speed was very, very different. The volume in which I was applying was very, very different. I really wanted to find a place that was a good fit, that I would feel really good about, that enjoyed.
00:38:59
Speaker
But I also just, you know, that was at this point secondary. Now, did you end up finding a job before baby got here? I did. i was on vacation two weeks before the layoff, and I got an email from recruiter a company that And I was like, I don't think I'm not really looking right now. Could be interesting, cool opportunity, but I'm not really like, you know, I'm good.
00:39:24
Speaker
Two weeks later, you know, I get the snooze. And so I like emailed her. like I was like, hi, was on vacation. I'd love to chat. And then on the call, I was like, I was also laid off. And so, you know, this email came at a perfect time. And so I had that call pretty early on. Definitely had some other things in the works, but that was, you know, time and time again, met the hiring manager and like really loved the hiring manager, the person that would be my boss there.
00:39:47
Speaker
at least for my first bit, really loved that person. So kind of like I was sold as, I like actually really could work here and, you know, would love to meet this team and whatnot.
Third Layoff and Coping Mechanisms
00:39:59
Speaker
Interviews went really well, really enjoyed everyone I i spoke to. And i did end up getting an offer two and a half months before I was due two and a half months before my due date. Wow. Okay. So, so then presumably you started the job before, before your due date, like very close to your due date.
00:40:16
Speaker
Yeah, so in a very stark contrast, I think I accepted my job offer but the end of April and I started like May 2nd. So it was like very stark contrast to my month off. I was like, no, I'm ready. Let's just let's just do it.
00:40:33
Speaker
I did sort of, you know, there was a little bit of negotiation. So was like, do this for me and I'll start a little earlier. And so they did the thing that I asked for. And even while I was negotiating, I didn't share that I was pregnant. So I had to be pretty careful about the questions I asked because like you know there are companies that have published policies, but even then there's not really tenure information a lot of the time.
00:40:56
Speaker
There are some companies that create databases, like you know third party people, like here's what we know about all these different places that I did have to ask. So i kind of just like included it in a big list of questions that I didn't care about. so i was like, hey, like tell me about the 401k match. Is it available immediately? like you I asked about like equity vesting, i asked about that as the third bullet and then one more, I can't remember what it was. I kind of just like clumped it in there. was like, tell me about the parental leave policy. Is it, is it ready immediately? Is there tenure?
00:41:25
Speaker
um so I got all of my questions answered. And then ah Friday before my first day, i asked my, the, my, my new boss, if he would be available for a call. And was like, I just want to share this.
00:41:36
Speaker
like kind of phrased it as like, this is really exciting. this is my situation. I'm so excited to join the team. I'm so excited about, you know, what I can do in the next two and a half months. And then when I get back, like looking forward to the longterm, I was so nervous about this call and he could not have responded more incredibly. He was like, well, we would have hired you anyway. This is really exciting. Like we got you, the work will be here when you get back. So that was a huge relief.
00:42:03
Speaker
It's like a conversational, never forget. It's at a really good tone for, for me And just like, yeah, took away that that stress of it. um Was it an ideal situation? Probably not. I can admit that it wasn't, but it's what's happening. And I really appreciate that he said something like, you know, yeah, of course I'm excited about what you're gonna do like in your first few months, but I'm more excited about what you're gonna do and your first year or your second year. So that made it all the better.
00:42:28
Speaker
Well, fast forward a bit. So you start in May, baby gets here, what happens next? baby gets here. i have, you know, I take my full 18 weeks of parental leave, holidays roll around and right before the holidays, December of 2024, husband gets laid off.
00:42:49
Speaker
No, sorry, December of 2023, my husband gets laid off. He finds a job a couple months fairly quickly. November of 2024, he gets laid off again. And then in June of 2025, I encountered my third layoff.
00:43:04
Speaker
And that brings us to where we are today. Tell me about how this third layoff went and similar questions. Did you see did you feel like you saw this coming at the time?
00:43:15
Speaker
Was it a surprise? What was the impact, especially given that you're like, you'd had one, you got a job, had a second, you got a job. Now we're here, time number three.
00:43:27
Speaker
Just to start before I even get into that, like this market is very different than those last two markets I encountered. so And I have already been seeing that and feeling that even before, um even if, you know, as I was looking to see like, oh, is there, what could I do? What could be next? Like it is feeling drier than I've experienced before.
00:43:47
Speaker
This one, you know, it's interesting. I both saw it coming, but also didn't at the same time. um We'd had ah layoff February of my, February of 24 that I survived. That boss that I loved was was impacted though.
00:44:04
Speaker
and you other people as well. So like you know, kind of went through it and the messaging was like, we really, you know, we hope to never do it again. And nobody hopes to do this again, of course, but there, you know, it was interesting. It was like this, the numbers and and everything looked like it was doing well and going well, but I could just feel this undertone of like, I don't know quiet vibes. I don't know if it's like, and I was like, Oh, it's summer. People are traveling, but in June, it just June felt weird. And I can't,
00:44:31
Speaker
quite describe it. I don't have tangible proof, but a meeting would canceled or there would be like a murmuring or i i don't know. It doesn't, it's hard to describe unless you've seen it in action, but things felt different.
00:44:45
Speaker
I couldn't explain why. So I just, again, was sort of like, okay, like something's happening, but okay. Like something's weird, but okay. How did you get the news the third time? Because it seems like you've kind of got a ah variety of ways you've been told to date.
00:45:00
Speaker
Yeah, this was another group call with a canceled all hands. And then two minutes before but time, like a join this meeting kind of thing.
00:45:12
Speaker
And I knew it. I started like, you know, I looked at who was on the invite. i looked at who wasn't on the invite. And I kind of was like, I know what group I'm in. ah holding and knowing that news before it's told to you is so awful.
00:45:27
Speaker
That period, just waiting for the confirmation sucks so bad. So how are you handling and navigating this layoff?
00:45:41
Speaker
I, it's it changes day by day. I feel like there are days where i and i know i i know what I want to do and I'm, you know, to all these jobs and there it is where like i question you know kind of what's next for me so when it first happened again like there was that writing but it still felt like i still was surprised when it happened and you know all of that and so i that week i just took to process and it wasn't like uh i'm gonna take this week off like it was the first time it wasn't like ah i'm gonna dive in like the second time it was just like i really had to take it day by day so and remember
00:46:21
Speaker
the night of the layoff, I like booked a gym time through class pass before I went to bed. know, I can book, to book a slot at the gym. And I was like, if don't, if I cancel this tomorrow, I'll lose my, so I'll lose $20 or whatever the cancellation fee is. So was like, that was the thing that I was doing that day to like force myself out of the house.
00:46:40
Speaker
And the Thursday after took myself to the beach. And then the Friday after I like took myself upstate for the day and, you know, met up with some family, um, at a museum, but you know, just kind of like really disconnected for the week.
00:46:56
Speaker
And then I was like, all right, Monday is going to come and I'm going to be ready. And Monday came and I was not ready. I, you know, I think part of it is, as you were saying, LinkedIn feels like a different place. The market feels like a different place. The jobs that are out there feel like a different place.
00:47:10
Speaker
And none of them were interesting, exciting things that I was ready to jump into. That second week, it was also very, very hot here. So it was very much like a, like kind almost a hundred degrees.
00:47:22
Speaker
was a lot of inside time. and did a lot of writing. That's kind of the thing that I turned to, in moments like these and something that I've been doing more of, you know doing some like cleaning around the house, stuff that don't always have time for when working 40 hour week. So I think it surprised me how not ready I was when I thought I would be okay, I'll take a little break and then And then I'll jump back in And now I'm just, I'm taking a different approach. so I'm reading this book called Never Search Alone. And it's this like book for job searchers. And it has you follow a really specific process.
00:47:56
Speaker
One of them is joining what they call a job search council, which you meet with, you know, once a week or at whatever cadence your group decides. And you follow this process. So I've done two of those already. And that's really been lovely.
00:48:08
Speaker
The second thing that they really encourage you to do is like, don't water hose your resume everywhere. Like, Most people say, and your resume and get it out there. and he's like, i'm going to tell you to not do that. And that advice is very hard to listen to, but it actually feels like exactly what I need in the moment.
00:48:23
Speaker
That's not to say I'm not applying to anything. i am applying to jobs that look interesting, that look like things that I can do. But I think back to but second time, especially I think by week one, I've had a hundred applications out there, right?
00:48:36
Speaker
That is not the case right now. So I think my approach is very different. I'm using this time to like look at the things that I want to do and my day-to-day, the things that I definitely don't want to do in my day-to-day, the type of people I want to work with. I think a lot of focus is put on company and title and role and comp and that's all important, but I'm trying to engineer it more of like, how is this job going to fit into my life and not how is my life going to fit into this next job?
00:49:07
Speaker
And it's been an interesting process. So there's a couple of things you said that really hit. And the first one for me is when you mentioned like you booked the class pass and you when you said like, I don't know how I'm going to show up.
00:49:20
Speaker
You know, I don't know what it's going to be like tomorrow. The way that you said that just kind of encapsulates, I think, really how it hits a lot of people is. you don't know how you're going to wake up the next day.
00:49:31
Speaker
You could wake up the next day and feel great and this go-getter-got-it attitude. You could wake up and be like, everything is falling apart around me. And even more fun, it can fluctuate between the two at any moment throughout any day.
00:49:47
Speaker
It's just the unpredictability is hard.
Emotional Well-being During Unemployment
00:49:52
Speaker
when When you're employed, feelings still happen, right? But specifically relating to employment, generally you can at least feel like, I may not like my job, but it feels stable.
00:50:03
Speaker
This is a whole new level of hope and despair that fluctuate on much you know wider ranges than than typical. And navigating that is so hard.
00:50:17
Speaker
It's so hard. My desire is to be very planful. but I also have ADHD. So I, I, that's already a battle within me. It's like, I want to plan my days, but then also I, I need to leave room to sort of like follow how I'm feeling.
00:50:31
Speaker
This just magnifies that, right. It's like, I want to make sure that, you know, I know the thing that I want to do every day, but I also know that I'm not, you know, that might not be my reality.
00:50:43
Speaker
think there was a day might've been that first Monday when I was like, Oh, I don't want to do anything. I was sort of like, you know, talking to my husband and he was like, just pick like two or three things that going to do every day.
00:50:54
Speaker
And i was like yeah, okay, I could do that. And now that's what I do. It's like, I'm going to pick two or three things that I'm going to do every day. And like, this call is one of them. Some times they're really simple. It's like unload the dishwasher, something that has to be done, but I can do while watching a show that you know, are listening to a podcast or whatever that just, you know, sometimes it is larger. Sometimes it's like, look at LinkedIn for five minutes. Right. So it's, I really have started to lower the expectations I have on myself.
00:51:18
Speaker
And I find that when i do that, I get more done. It's like, oh, well, I'm already here. so So I'm doing my five minutes. Here's a job that I could apply to. Let me apply. Right. And so there's that going on too. I have heard that you know when you go too high with the expectations, there's a higher rate of failure because it can feel so almost burdensome on yourself, right? If you're like, okay, I need to apply to 10 jobs today.
00:51:40
Speaker
That can feel really burdensome, especially when you don't know how you're going to show up that morning, right? And if you set the bar a little bit more realistically, even if it feels micro low, like I made my bed this morning,
00:51:56
Speaker
oh a win is a win. And if you can start stacking tiny wins, you usually do end up finding that you get more done because you take a tiny win, you take a tiny win. 10 tiny wins can be more than one medium to large size win. Yeah, i totally agree with that.
00:52:16
Speaker
That, you know, that very much works for me. I also feel very lucky because I have this built in routine of having a toddler, right? My my son's now almost two. And so like, He gets up at the same time every day. We go to school at the same time every day. Like he goes to bed at the same, right? So we have these really strict routines in place that make me get into my routine. So like, no matter what kind of day I'm having, I'm going to go outside at least once.
00:52:40
Speaker
I'm going to get a little walk-in, right? Because there's a person that I, that's, you know, that take somewhere and we walk. So that's also something, you know, that not everybody has that, but I feel very lucky this time to sort of have that.
00:52:54
Speaker
What I've heard in talking with other folks who've been laid off is that having any kind of routine can bring a sense of normalcy back to life and a sense of comfort back to life.
00:53:06
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And I, you know, to something you said, like, ah you I never underestimate how, like, things that might seem small are not small when you're in it. Like, like, I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna brush my teeth first thing.
00:53:19
Speaker
And like, there are days where that's huge. ye Yeah, yeah. Any win is a win. Agreed. That is something that's so it can be so hard again to buy into that idea.
00:53:34
Speaker
When you're in a space, though, where everything feels or everything can feel really heavy and really doom and gloom. sometimes those tiny wins are what you need to celebrate to lift you up. So you mentioned too, like you mentioned that writing has been helpful, routines have been really helpful.
00:53:54
Speaker
What else helps you bring yourself up on those hard days? Like if you're having a really rough day, what are some strategies you use to help yourself feel a little bit better?
00:54:06
Speaker
The first thing I do, it's like this personal checklist. It's like, when it was the last time I showered? When it was the last time I ate? When it was the last time I drank water? Like, let's you know let's do a little mental inventory. i think spending time with like you know friends and family is is huge and important.
00:54:20
Speaker
If I feel like that's supportive, there are moments where I actually need to be a little bit more alone. But if being around people is supportive to me, then it's always helpful.
00:54:31
Speaker
Movement, I i luckily... found myself getting into some pretty good routines like earlier this year. My, my workout routine is pretty structured at this point. And so like that, I didn't have to find the motivation because I don't already have the motivation because most of the time doing that's not motivation. It's just like a thing that I do.
00:54:51
Speaker
yeah So having that removed is actually very helpful because there, you know, in moments like these, I, I do know that I at least tend to get a little bit more sedentary and like don't want to do too much movement. So like having that already established,
00:55:05
Speaker
takes away that guesswork, like getting outside if the weather is nice enough, um like getting to the beach, this being summer has been really helpful. Yeah, I mean, i I mentioned it briefly, but like writing is something that I've turned to whether it's just journaling during my second lap when I was pregnant, I started sub stack that I've continued through to now. So that's been something that has been really good to pour my energy into.
Digital Detox and Lifestyle Changes
00:55:26
Speaker
I focused on it pretty heavily when I was laid off and pregnant. And then When I had a kid, the reality of like keeping up with something like that set in. and you When you're pregnant, you have all these dreams of what you're going to do with your free time when you're on leave. And it's not really free time.
00:55:42
Speaker
But then when my husband was let laid off the second time, I kind of like, that was the inspiration I needed to get back into it. So I already had that practice too of like, you know, a structured cadence. I think having those things already established was very helpful.
00:55:55
Speaker
I know not everybody has things like that that are established, but it's like almost like reminding myself of what are the things that i like to do outside of who I am at work, outside of my identity as a person that is employed, then getting back to it.
00:56:09
Speaker
I think, like, I have to be mindful of my screen time. So like, sometimes watching a show can be a really comforting activity. And sometimes it can lead to watching too many hours of a show. And then I'm like, Ooh, I'm feeling fuzzy and and foggy. And this is actually not what I need right now. So it's like, i kind of have to just Check in with that.
00:56:31
Speaker
Agreed wholeheartedly, by the way, on the screen time. It can be, I've had days where I just like scroll Instagram and I will like cycle through like Instagram and like if I get desperate, Facebook, because I really don't use it anymore.
00:56:45
Speaker
And then Reddit and then LinkedIn and then just like having the TV on in the background. And I definitely notice on those days, at the end of the day, I feel like more drained, more like fuzzy, just like unable to think or really process things. Like it just, those days feel so much harder, to be honest, even though it should intuitively, you would think, oh, you're relaxing on your phone all day. Isn't that great? It's like, it's actually not, it ends up being worse.
00:57:13
Speaker
Truly. but Yeah, I, In February, i did this like three weeks digital detox where I cut social media completely. I cut my TV watching completely. i like set very specific times where I was allowed to check my email. Like I was my, I deleted everything from my phone that wasn't like a tool basically. um And I felt like a very specific like person's guidelines and I really loved it.
00:57:36
Speaker
the The example they give is like, if you're actively buying a home, Zillow is a tool. If you're not, delete it. i was like, I'm not, I'm going to delete Zillow, right? So it was like, I, So I feel like I did that. i added everything back, but I feel very differently about my relationship with social media now than I did.
00:57:52
Speaker
Thankfully, i still find since the layoff, I'm spending more time than i was before it, but I already have some sort of like boundaries in place and like mental things that I know i have, like, you know, I found that I really love doing like a crossword, like i have a crossword book that I carry around the house. Like you but if I feel like I need to do something,
00:58:15
Speaker
you know, that's not mindless, but not totally productive. Like I try to grab that more. So having those things that having like non-digital hobbies, I think is important.
00:58:25
Speaker
Yes, a hundred percent, especially in this world where everything is so heavily digital. It's all like intended to just capture your attention and advertise to you and just all the things.
00:58:38
Speaker
And every study out there will tell you about how detrimental it is to your brain and your mental health to be just scrolling on social media and on your phone all day. So definitely having something non-digital, non-digital hobbies, like you mentioned, is um I think agreed.
Future Career Considerations
00:58:55
Speaker
So important to have something to keep you from getting sucked into that death, like the, the doom scrolling, basically.
00:59:05
Speaker
but i know I mentioned this earlier, like the hour always flies by. highly deb Before I let you go, last thing I want to ask you in terms of job seeking, tell me a little bit about what kind of jobs are attractive to you right now, what kind of company culture you're looking for, and ideally what would you like to do in your next role?
00:59:30
Speaker
Yeah, this is the million dollar question. I am spending a lot of time thinking about that. A month or so before i was laid off, I decided to like buy a domain. Actually, think my husband already owned it, but like use my domain for like a personal website, specifically around writing. i didn't know, if, you know, i was like, maybe I can pick up like a freelance client and do that before work just to have a creative thing. And I can't really, there wasn't a strategy around why I did that, but I did that.
01:00:00
Speaker
and actually ended up getting a client starting in May. So a month before i was laid off. So I'm actually like not totally zero income right now, which is really wonderful. It is a fraction of what I was making, but you know, i think that's something that's really positive. So I'm, part of me is using this time to say like, how can I do that more effectively?
01:00:18
Speaker
consistently, although I'm not convinced I'm the part I want to freelance full time. I haven't decided yet. I'm kind of using this to explore, but there is a part of me that likes structure, that likes the benefits being handled, that likes the W2. Like i there is a part of me that likes that framework. So I'm kind of back and forth of like loving the time freedom and, you know, what building something could provide and build, but also this reality of like, I don't quite know. So have one foot in that bucket. I obviously have this career product that I've been building and I am at this crossroads of like, do I continue this or are there other roles that I explore that not only consider the four years of the, you know as a PM, but kind of like my whole, this point, 13 year career right that will really allow me to use everything I bring to the table. So I'm, you know, I'm exploring various paths. I think when I think about
01:01:10
Speaker
what what I like to do. i really like to work with like great people who are passionate. You know, I think I do my best work when I'm around people that are really transparent and like love what they do, but are also human.
01:01:24
Speaker
Um, and sort of like that balance between like working hard, but also sustainable in terms of how work fits into your life. Like that's, I think really important for me building a long term career that I can sort of really grow in.
01:01:38
Speaker
So I think that's like, that's kind of very loose things in terms of titles. I'm still looking at product management roles. I'm really intrigued about like, you know, if I were to find a founder or a company that you really jive with, like I could totally see myself stepping into like a certain type of chief of staff role, probably not one that wants like crazy financial reports run, but like more of that, you know, like internal comms advisor, like, you know, sounding board,
01:02:07
Speaker
Hey, we're recruiting for this team. Can you do it? You're like that kind of like, almost like Jack of all trades type of thing. so you know, starting to dip my toe and like what that could look like.
01:02:18
Speaker
I do well with ambiguity, but I also like to know when like, like there's like what the North stars that we're all marching towards, like, you know, clear goal, clear vision. So yeah, it's sort of a ah funny time to ask and answer that question because I have a feeling next month, it might be very different as I,
01:02:35
Speaker
go through this process that I'm trusting with my Never Search Alone group, yeah, i'm I'm starting to crack that nut and see what else is possible. I really admire how much thought you put into it too, because to your point, it that kind of stuff can fluctuate just as easily as feelings can fluctuate day to day and differences in the market and changes in life. like These are all things that are very dynamic, things that are never really settled and done and, you know, wash your hands. I mean, to your point, you're having a chance now too, to explore like, do I want to freelance and lean in heavy to that? Do I want more of the W2? There's all of those trade-offs that, you know, you have to think through like,
01:03:22
Speaker
what what is good about freelancing, right? Like the the um time, the flexibility, but you don't get health insurance. You don't get 401k match. And there's so much to consider. And, you know, i think it's extremely respectable to keep that mindset of, you know,
01:03:43
Speaker
Here's what I'm thinking. And it could change. And tomorrow I could decide i want to go this route. And then two days later, I could decide I want to go that route. And that's perfectly acceptable because...
01:03:56
Speaker
You know, there's nothing else I've learned through these kinds of experiences, it's that life is never linear. As much as, you know, we may try to make it or, you know, in my case, as much as I really try to make my life, you know, linear and a straight path, um it never is.
01:04:12
Speaker
And it can it can turn and twist and take you on wild journeys that include three layoffs and a baby. we all make it somehow, right?
01:04:23
Speaker
Yeah, i think that's a really good insight and like important for me to hear. I hope important for others to hear, right? That I'm not saying I'm reinventing myself during this time, but you know, it is like good to have that.
01:04:35
Speaker
If you need permission, take the permission to be open. I think that's really what I'm doing. It's like i'm being open, um open to new experiences, open to things that I don't know yet, open to somebody DMing me on LinkedIn and asking me to be on their podcast. I'm like, yeah, totally. Right. I think just being open is is important. And I wonder if you know, if I were like who I am today, but in the market of 2022, I don't know if I'd let myself be this open. I wonder, i mean i don't know, you know, it's hard to say what would be, but if I had this like flood of jobs today with the career I have today, I probably would be like, yeah, like give me another product job.
01:05:07
Speaker
Like let me work at ah big place and whatever. so it's almost like by acknowledging what the market is, I'm almost like forcing myself to be like okay, like what is my fit in this market? What can i really bring to the table and be a little bit more compelling?
01:05:22
Speaker
Not only for, you know, when someone's looking at my resume, but like that I feel like I fit in with. Yeah. I don't, I would like to be at my next place for ah long time.
01:05:34
Speaker
Yes. Not like decades, like, you know, are the generation of our parents typically do, but like, you know, I, yeah. A good, a good solid couple of years, some stability. a Couple of years. And when I leave, I think I want to quit.
01:05:47
Speaker
Yeah. and like And like a happy quit. Like, hey, this has been great. Here's what I'm doing next. I'm so happy. Like, this has been the best experience i ever. Like, that's that's what I want at the end of it. Please, just as as part of the job offer, please allow me to quit this job. Allow me to happily quit.
01:06:04
Speaker
Not an angry quit, but like a, like I got a new opportunity. It's so wonderful. Yeah, that's... And I will say, i i am a firm believer that me personally, there is no silver lining to layoffs, in my opinion.
01:06:19
Speaker
I do think good things can come after a layoff. I think some of the good things that come after layoffs are, especially right now, a lot of people are taking on these new mindsets, these new ways of thinking about things.
Reflections on Layoffs and Moving Forward
01:06:34
Speaker
Getting your next job is not as easy as just applying to jobs anymore. And we're all having to reevaluate the way that we move, the way that we operate and what's next for us.
01:06:45
Speaker
We're having to take these risks of, I'm going to try this. I don't know if it's going to go anywhere, but what do I have to lose now? And I think that can make some really good after a layoff.
01:07:00
Speaker
I love the way you phrase that. I think the nuance in that of like, there are no silver linings, but in X months time, you may look back and say, oh, that's why that happened. Right. And I totally believe that too. It's like, it's not a good thing.
01:07:17
Speaker
Even if one of the emotions you may feel is relief when it happens. I know that that, you know, sometimes does happen. It's like, oh, that wasn't a fit. I'm, you know, like, I think there's this reaction of feeling guilty about that relief. Like, no, if you feel relief after a layoff, you can feel relief, but it doesn't mean that it's like, you know,
01:07:33
Speaker
Yeah, a good thing. All feelings are valid. If you are somebody who's been laid off and you're like, thank God, I'm so glad I got laid off. Absolutely. Have those happy feelings. Lean into those happy feelings.
01:07:46
Speaker
If you are somebody who's like, like me, that there is no good that comes from a layoff, like there's no silver lining to a layoff. It is a bad situation that I wish never would have happened to me. That is absolutely okay to feel too.
01:07:58
Speaker
And if you feel... both or all of those things that's also like very normal yes oh yeah god the complexity of emotions that you realize that you have after a layoff I swear is like it is relearning how to have emotions like I never have I felt my emotions go so roller coaster since like middle school which was the worst period of lifetime ever and it's I mean, now it's becoming more documented, right? I mean, you're doing this podcast, which I'm so excited about. There's, you know, other people talking about layoff experiences in other places, but it's not one of those moments like navigating death, navigating breakups, not to equate layoffs with death, but like, I feel like those have maybe a little bit more of a playbook.
01:08:44
Speaker
This is sort of just like, well, it happened. but It's not your fault. Pick yourself up, find a new job. Yeah. Cry for a day, you know? So I do think that, you know, more acknowledgement of the complexity is is really a good thing. And if anything that has happened come out of the last couple of years, hopefully that's one of the things.
01:09:05
Speaker
Well, Julie, i appreciate you. Thank you for coming to share your story. I know it can't be. an easy one to recount. It's honestly, i don't I don't consider it ever easy to recount one layoff. You recounted three.
01:09:20
Speaker
So um I thank you. I thank you three times as much for for each one. oh my goodness. It was my pleasure. to Thank you for having me. Thank you for reaching out. Really excited about what you're doing. It was really lovely to to share with everyone and really excited to see where this goes.
01:09:38
Speaker
Thank you. Another massive thank you to Julie for coming on and sharing her story with us. Again, if you would like to find any of the tools that Julie mentioned in our conversation, you can find links to all of those in the episode description.
01:09:57
Speaker
And come back next week for some pretty exciting news. See you soon.