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Episode 414: So this is what a winning streak feels like, eh?
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Welcome to another edition of Nos Audietis, sponsored by Full Pull Wines, Watson’s Counter and our Substack subscribers. This is episode 414 and We’re recording on Tuesday, July 11, 2023. I am your host Jeremiah Oshan. Joining me today is my co-host Aaron Campeau and of course our producer Likkit.
For the first time in three months, the Sounders are on a winning streak. Sure, it’s just two games but baby-steps people. Win No. 2 came in pretty satisfying style, beating Vancouver 3-2 on the road in a game where they erased two deficits.
They got two goals from Leo Chu and a game-winner from Yeimar in the 91st minute, the first regular-season stoppage time winner since the season-opener in 2020.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
This episode of Nos Arietes is sponsored by Full Pull Wines, a Seattle-based wine retailer and proud sponsor of Nos Arietes since 2011. Full Pull was founded in 2009, is based in Seattle, and is owned and operated by longtime sounder supporters. They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, the Pacific Northwest.
Sounders' Winning Streak Celebration
00:00:21
Speaker
Hey, this is Christian Roldan. And Jordan Morris from the Seattle Sounders Football Club. And you're listening to... There's no study at this. Here we go. Come on! Hey, Ocean! Let's go! What a save by Fry! The Seattle Sounders have done it! MLS co-pointers! Here comes Ray D'Ace from the middle to crowd it! The vehicle! And now they truly can't stop the celebrations.
00:01:04
Speaker
Seattle Sounders, the greatest MLS team in history. This is a tiny f***ing doll.
Episode Introduction and Host Details
00:01:34
Speaker
Is that why you young people call twerking?
00:01:37
Speaker
Welcome to another edition of NOS Adiata, sponsored by Fullpool Wines, Watson's Counter, and our Substack subscribers. This is episode 414, and we're recording on Tuesday, July 11th, 2023.
Sounders' Victorious Match Against Vancouver
00:01:48
Speaker
I am your host, Jeremiah O'Shan. Joining me today is my co-host, Aaron Campo, and of course, our producer, Lickit. For the first time in three months, the Sounders are on a winning streak. Sure, it's just two games, but baby steps, people.
00:02:01
Speaker
win number two came in pretty satisfying style, beating Vancouver three, two on the road in a game where they erased two deficits. They got two goals from Leo Chiu and a game winner from Yemorn in the 91st minute.
Sounders as Western Conference Contenders
00:02:12
Speaker
The first regular season stoppage time winner since the season over in 2020. Yes, that is pre pandemic times. Maybe more importantly, this under solidified their number two spot in the Western conference, uh, where they are now two points clear by LAFC and just three points behind St. Louis city with two games left before the league's cup break.
00:02:31
Speaker
Is it okay to feel good about things, Aaron? I think it's okay to feel somewhat optimistic. Sure. I think neither of these performances were great or lights out, but I think they were both encouraging in different ways. The Vancouver game, the Sounders scored three goals. You got to feel pretty good about that considering what the big issue has been all year long. And I think equally encouraging to me is that this is a team that has looked
00:03:01
Speaker
I don't want to say lacking in fight, but lacking in belief at times this year. Yeah. And, and I, and I think to battle the way they did and going to win out of that game, I would have felt okay with a draw.
Sounders' Winning Mentality Development
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, in that game. And for them to, I think rightfully feel like they could get a win and then to go and get it, I think is very encouraging because I don't think that's the kind of mentality they've maybe had for a lot of the year. So, you know, there's, there's still work to do that. There are still some, some problems for sure. And I think, you know, every, everyone is, would freely admit that, but
00:03:39
Speaker
two wins in a row, two wins in a row, whether or not they were against mediocre teams, whether or not you had to get a red card maybe to help you out.
Impact of Red Cards on Recent Victories
00:03:47
Speaker
You know, you can win, you can only win the games that are in front of you and the Sounders have done that twice in a row. And you know, if they can go, we talked about this last week, if they can go into the league's cup on a high note, I think that makes me feel pretty good about the, about the rest of the season.
00:04:02
Speaker
Yeah, I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves, but I'll, I'll just say if the sounders can win one of these last two games, they are in great shape. I think going into the league's cup and it really doesn't matter which two they win or which of the two they win in, in part because like I, I think I had said five points from these last
00:04:20
Speaker
three games would have been pretty sufficient, uh, in terms of like feeling good, but if they can get to six, Hey, uh, even better, right? And, and they obviously have more on the table than that right now. Uh, but you know, you, you mentioned the red cards and you may as well get into that, uh, the centers, their last, uh, or three of their last four wins have come where they were the beneficiary of a red card. And weirdly the other win, uh, the fourth one in that they were down a man, but.
00:04:51
Speaker
I've seen quite a few takes along this line of sort of like diminishing the result because of the red card. And I think there's some truth to that. But I, I don't know, in this case, I'm in fact, in both cases in the last two games, I'm a little disinclined to write it off too much because the goals came so quickly after the red card.
00:05:13
Speaker
And and at least in my experience, the red card is not something that usually leads it directly to a goal. It's it's sort of like the compounding effect of having to cover a little bit more ground because it's relatively easy to switch your formation and sort of like, especially on a like in this game, I don't I don't really think the goal came as a result of the red card because it was
00:05:40
Speaker
you know, they had the numbers back. They needed to defend. They made it was a set piece deep in their own end. And, and the sounders just sort of, you know, I, I don't want to say it was irrelevant to them getting the result because that's impossible to say, but I just, I think,
00:05:56
Speaker
The amount of effect the red card had in both of these situations, I think, was maybe not as big. Now, you go back to the other game, the Houston game where they were playing up two men and that was over a long period of time. Yeah, that's a red card situation. But this one, I'm a little more like, you know, yeah, they took advantage of the red card, but I don't necessarily think the red card is what directly led to either of the goals.
00:06:21
Speaker
No, and I think red cards don't always happen in a vacuum. In this game, the red card happened because the sounders were pretty consistently getting out on the break and creating danger behind. Same deal against Houston. And if you're consistently putting defenders in bad positions, they're more likely to commit the kind of fouls that lead to yellow cards and red cards. And you know, I just think it's the sounders were
00:06:50
Speaker
I don't want to say dominant in this game because I don't think Vancouver is a team that really cares too much about possession. And the two goals they scored were easy enough, right? So I think that they would have been pretty happy with the draw. I'm pretty happy with their performance in this game. But I felt like the Sounders were the much better team and just kind of sloppy in this one. Especially the second half.
00:07:12
Speaker
especially, especially true in the second half. And even though all three of the centers goals essentially came through set pieces, they were consistently dangerous in the run of play as well. Uh, and, and just to kind of close the book a bit on the, on the officiating aspect of this,
00:07:28
Speaker
There were also three penalty shouts within a, I don't know, like essentially in one sequence that the Senators did not get.
Debate Over Penalty Decisions
00:07:37
Speaker
And so there was sort of like some just desserts that they got the red card to at least play a little bit more advantage with. But I don't know, did you, I don't want to get too deep into that whole situation, but
00:07:50
Speaker
Where did you come down? I was ultimately okay with no penalty. I'm sure partly because they ended up winning the game. But even in real time, like there was this sort of compounding effect of like, man, we just like you add all those three together and shouldn't that be one penalty? And I do understand that emotion, but that's obviously not the way that the reps are looking at it. I think that all three were
00:08:16
Speaker
marginally bad male calls. Uh, the, the one that I think was the clearest foul and that I was the most upset with was the tackle on Rudy Diaz. Yeah. I think that to me, the only way that can't be a penalty is the ref has just decided, well, the ball, the ball was gone. It didn't really matter. It was, it wasn't, you know, crucial to the play. And so that's a cheap penalty to give, which is,
00:08:44
Speaker
a way that referees officiate sometimes. I think it sucks, but I think that's a foul very clearly anywhere else on the field. Yes. The handball, the really egregious handball is a call that doesn't get called fairly often, but is very clearly by the laws of the game, a penalty. We're talking about the first one or the second one.
00:09:09
Speaker
The, the one, um, on bear halter, I can't recall it. Yeah. So that one to me is weirdly like less bothersome because it doesn't get called a lot, but is very obviously handball. So I don't know. I mean, I think if they don't win that game or they lose that game, I'm going to, I'm like you said, most likely going to be a lot more pissed off about it. Uh, I think it's reasonable to be a little pissed off about it. I think that, yeah, sure.
00:09:38
Speaker
I think both of those are penalties and the other handball, a lot more marginal. But those two, for me, are pretty clear penalties, but they're also pretty clear penalties that don't get called frustratingly often. And so it's one of those weird situations where it's like,
00:09:59
Speaker
that should be called, but it's not always called. And so how mad can you really be? Cause if you get mad at all of those, you're going to get mad a whole
Leo Chu's Standout Performance
00:10:08
Speaker
lot. So, uh, yeah, I mean, I think it's reasonable to feel hard done by if they had lost the game, I would be a lot more pissed, but I don't know that I would be pointing that and saying, that's why we lost the game. You know?
00:10:24
Speaker
You know, it's it is frustrating, but it's weirdly one of those things. It's kind of consistent and it's inconsistency. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Well, let's get into the actual gameplay a little bit more for me. And I think for most people who watch this game, Leo Chu has to be sort of the standout player. He's in the middle of all three goals. He scores the first two. He's it's a shot that sets up the last one.
00:10:50
Speaker
But this is a different kind of layout two game than we've seen in the past where the Sounders have run a lot of their offense through him. We talked about him last week about how sort of reliant the Sounders have become on his ability to stretch the field and sort of then then create from there. And in this game, he was
00:11:12
Speaker
I feel like maybe more of a natural part of the game and less of a, let's design a whole bunch of, uh, of plays essentially for Leo too. And both goals were, you know, maybe you could say they were designed for him because he's, but I, they don't feel like Leo two type plays because he's essentially just playing on the weak side, uh, from, uh,
00:11:38
Speaker
from a set piece and he was just opportunistic and he was making a back post run and he was in a good spot.
Strategic Shift in Set Pieces
00:11:47
Speaker
I love to see that stuff and that's one of the things where you see the Sounders score twice on not identical plays but on identical styles of play where
00:11:59
Speaker
Nico Ledero puts in a nice set piece. Jackson Reagan essentially heads it back across the goal and Leo choose there to finish it. And it makes you go like, well, why aren't they using Jackson Reagan like this all the time? Yeah, that was, I think maybe even more than the penalties. That was the thing that frustrated me so much was seeing how effective he can be as a weapon on set pieces and realizing how infrequently he gets utilized on set pieces.
00:12:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those things where you hope, like I hope this has not just been something they've been holding in reserve because he looked unstoppable on set pieces in this game. And if he can be even, you know, they're not going to get three goals a game off set pieces, but if they can be dangerous
00:12:50
Speaker
once or twice a game, which is a huge upgrade over what they've been. That all of a sudden makes your whole, that's going to help with your scoring a lot. And as it is, the Sounders actually all of a sudden rocketed up to like fifth in the league and set peace goals.
00:13:08
Speaker
Right. Which does go to show how infrequently they're scored. Right. And they have four in the last two games, but go ahead. Right. Well, I do think that it was where the sounders are concerned. It's it's yes, that they had very few set piece goals until all of a sudden they don't, but they haven't even looked threatening. Right. Exactly. I think that's so it was it wasn't like they were
00:13:34
Speaker
putting together good set piece routines and just, you know, those are small margins on set pieces. They just looked impotent from set pieces. And now all of a sudden they look unstoppable. It's pretty, it's pretty impressive. I do think though, with, with Leo Chu, one of the takeaways from his game that I had was that he is very skillful on the ball. He's really good at taking on defenders. He obviously has great physical abilities. And when he's been able to get himself into certain situations this year, he's been,
00:14:02
Speaker
almost unstoppable. When he's been able to find space, isolated against one defender, he's been fantastic. In this game, he was putting those same skills to use in different situations. It has to be sustainable to really say it's an evolution of his game, but it definitely looked like a player who was starting to figure out how to use his abilities
00:14:23
Speaker
in more situations. And that's, I mean, that's what really makes a truly dynamic player, not a player who can be really dangerous in the right circumstances, but a player who can affect any game in any situation. And so that to me, if he can sustain that, that's a really exciting development from a player that's already had by every measure a huge breakout season. Right.
00:14:46
Speaker
Yeah, I would totally agree with that. And that's the thing that you really want to see from Leo. And I did think it was kind of an interesting little detail in the postgame they were asking, or we were asking Brian about Leo 2's game. And he identified one play where Leo maybe didn't do the right thing. And I thought that was an interesting thing. And there's a question actually from a listener about it. We'll get into it later. But
00:15:11
Speaker
It's interesting that there's still these little tweaks to his game that he can make that can make him so much more effective and
00:15:23
Speaker
And it's, I don't know, he's an exciting player. It's, it's fun to watch him evolve and it's, and it's fun to see him playing as well as he is and producing as much as he's producing without being perfect. You know, it's, it's like, there are still very clearly flaws in his game that can, that can be fixed. And, uh, and so it's, it's encouraging to think that there's growth to be had potentially, uh, in the second, you know, the final third of the season.
00:15:50
Speaker
Yeah, especially because he's a player that's pretty clearly willing to listen to feedback, willing to listen to criticism, willing to put in the work to do the things to make himself a better player. Uh, he was clearly put in a lot of work in the off season. And I think it's, it seems like he has been putting in work during the season as well to take some of that feedback to heart and, uh, and just learn how to fit in with the team better. I mean, he's, he's not a young player anymore in the traditional sense, but he is
00:16:20
Speaker
He still has plenty. I mean, he's entering his prime phase and players tend to develop for another three, four, five years, you know, after they start to enter that phase.
Challenges in Roster Management
00:16:31
Speaker
So, you know, if he can put it all together and continue to make not even this gravity of improvement, because that would make him.
00:16:42
Speaker
like a globally elite player, but just continuing to steadily improve. I mean, he's going to be a player who maybe when his contract is up, you don't even think twice about giving him a huge DP deal.
00:16:55
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it'll be interesting. And it also sets us over to an interesting problem. You know, the sounders right now, I don't think have any of these concerns literally this week. But once Christian Roldan and Jordan Morris come back, all of a sudden, they've got a lot of hard choices that they're going to have to be making. And, you know, it is funny because we keep going. I feel like we are
00:17:18
Speaker
In total whiplash mode, especially when we're looking at this roster where it's like one minute, it's like, blow it all up. There's no one redeemable on this. You know, maybe there's only a two or three really important pieces on this roster and everyone else is expendable. And then you, you, uh, you have a couple of performances. Like they had these last couple of weeks and then you all of a sudden you look at who's coming back into the team and all of a sudden it's like, Oh, well we have 13 guys. I want to be starting. And I don't know where to plan and we don't know where, what position the best position for all these guys is.
00:17:47
Speaker
And top of that list right now, I think, is Nico Ledero, who I guess he made some comments. I actually haven't seen the comments yet, but I was talking to Nico Moreno about them. And he made some comments at training this week where he was openly complaining about playing on the right and basically saying, I don't know why we went away from me being in the middle. Things were working great. And it's like, well, Nico, they weren't working great.
00:18:10
Speaker
But weirdly, they seem to be working okay with him deployed on the right. But man, it's not that hard to watch him play and think, is he deployed on the right? Because
00:18:23
Speaker
I see him on the left a lot and you look at his heat map and it's almost indiscernible from when he's deployed in the middle. I mean, he's basically roaming all over the field and yeah, every now and then it creates some interesting overloads on the left. But for the most part, it's just a lot of movement and maybe that's working. It's hard to complain when he did play well these last two games.
00:18:49
Speaker
And it's not like they're getting badly exposed on the right side like in counter attacks or anything like that. But where do you fall? I guess it's a two-part question. Is Nico's movement a net positive and what do you do with him?
00:19:09
Speaker
I think that Nico playing on the right takes a lot of defensive pressure off of him and takes a lot of the impetus to press off of him and allows him to be effective in the attack, which is really where his skills are most useful at this stage in his career.
00:19:26
Speaker
the kind of self-belief and ego. And I say that in a positive way that it takes to be an athlete as successful as Nico Ledero is something that I think normal people can't even comprehend. But it is very funny to me that as bad as the Sounders have been for as long as they were and for as bad as Nico, frankly, had been. I mean, Nico, there were games where he was by far the worst player on the field for the Sounders. For sure. Like a stretch of games.
00:19:55
Speaker
And so for him to put in some of his best performances since, you know, March or April, and the Sounders go on a two game winning streak and actually score three goals in one of those games to complain about the changes is I think kind of funny, but yes, you know, it's, I mean, it's whatever it's, it's, I don't, if the team is winning, I don't really care whether or not Nico was happy.
00:20:22
Speaker
or anybody else's happy, frankly. Like that's not, because if they keep winning, it'll all work itself out. And if the performance is on the field or good, if they're winning, if Nika, if maybe, and then honestly, maybe upset Nika was good. Like maybe that's what he needed. Maybe he needed to, like, this is not a player who is all, you know, hugs and kisses.
00:20:50
Speaker
in the locker room or on the field with his teammates. I mean, he is a competitor and maybe he needs, this is maybe what he needs. You know, it's, he needs to feel like the coaches are disrespecting him. Maybe he needs to feel like the coaches are not respecting his, his longevity or whatever. I don't know.
Albert Rusnak's Adaptable Role
00:21:07
Speaker
But I will say, I appreciate that Albert Rusnak
00:21:11
Speaker
seems to just be covering, whether it's by design or not, he does seem to be covering for Nico and, uh, and Joe Paulo and, and, uh, we had Bergus or they are, they're all sort of like filling the gaps the way that they would need. They need to be filling the gaps and
00:21:28
Speaker
I mean, especially with JP and Rusnak, whatever they're doing right now seems to be working as well. I know I was pretty reluctant about the idea of moving Rusnak out to the right.
00:21:42
Speaker
And I don't know, maybe in a weird way, it works better to have Rusnak ostensibly deployed as the center mid and, and Nico deployed as a right mid because when they, if they flip flop and their default positions, I have a feeling you're not going to see Rusnak filling into the middle as much. You're going to, you're going to see, you know, and so you're not going to get the same sort of balance. And, uh, you know, we saw on the, on that last play, you know, Rusnak, Rusnak
00:22:09
Speaker
still has some pretty, you know, he did not get on the score sheet as for goals or assists, but he was involved in some, in some very positive play. And it was really his past that unlocked the, uh, the winning goal.
00:22:23
Speaker
Yeah, I thought I thought he had a really good game that that pass is one of my favorite passes that that just a little into it's just so it's so nice and it's not high percentage, but when it works, it's it's pretty well unstoppable. And, you know, I think that was the case here. And yeah, I think that I do think that there's something to the idea that.
00:22:47
Speaker
some of the best sounders teams we've ever seen have been very unbalanced to one side. Right. And I think a lot of the trouble that the sounders caused for Vancouver was because the middle was extremely crowded and Vancouver couldn't deal with the overloads without the ball. Couldn't work their way through the midfield a lot of the time with the ball unless they went extremely direct, which I'm sure we'll get to later. But
00:23:13
Speaker
And you're right. I think Rosnak is going to have a little more, I don't want to say positional discipline, but he's probably not going to float as much. He's not going to play as much of a free, as a free role. He seems to be more reacting to the holes that are being created, not necessarily just like going wherever he feels like he needs to go to get the ball. Right. And I think there are a lot of teams that
00:23:37
Speaker
a lot of success with having their 10 and their main creative player given a free role that's not necessarily in the center of the pitch, but they end up there a lot. And I understand that Niko wants to play in the middle. I have a feeling he probably will end up playing back there, but
00:23:55
Speaker
It's working right now. You're not going to have Christian back. You're not going to have Jordan back creating a lot of issues. This makes sense. This team makes sense to me. So I think they got to keep going with it. You know, speaking of what's working,
00:24:15
Speaker
I don't think I expected this at all, but for a long time I had been sort of of the mind that Nico was what made the sounders press work and
Rui Diaz's Pressing Ability
00:24:28
Speaker
I'm starting to believe that maybe that's not as much the cases as I thought it was in that Rui Diaz has actually been like, he's not turning the ball over, but he, he just applies very effective pressure. I think that sometimes gets underrated and Rusnak does a really good job of supporting them and neither one of them are necessarily generating a whole lot of turnovers by themselves, but they are just disciplined in the way that they apply pressure. And I feel like they do a little bit better job of,
00:24:57
Speaker
sort of moving player moving the opposition into spaces that you want them to be in that allow their teammates to come into this whereas when nico is sometimes the head of the press it's sometimes almost a one or two man press where he's just flying everywhere and chasing the ball and that's not always super effective.
00:25:17
Speaker
I think that Niko's, there was definitely a time where Niko's work rate and willingness to press and create problems was instrumental in changing the sounder style of play to a more modern style of play, into a style of play that really suited their personnel. But I think you're right that his days of being
00:25:36
Speaker
the guy that is going to be your most effective presser are probably over if he wants to be effective in other areas of the game. And I think that Nico create, it's like you said, like Rusnak and Rudy Diaz, maybe you're not directly creating turnovers in the way Nico was maybe good for
00:25:58
Speaker
So very obvious ones. Yeah. But the aggregate, I think is probably higher than what Nico can provide at this point. And, um, Vancouver had a decent number of miss hit balls. Uh, they had a decent number of situations where the press is great for turning the ball over.
00:26:16
Speaker
in the opposition's final third and creating chances that way. But it's also good for creating a chaotic environment in the midfield. And even if they're advancing the ball, they're not, they don't have their shape. They're not able to create as much going forward. And you're able to create
00:26:34
Speaker
chances in midfield or even in your own final third because of that disorganization, because teams are just trying to get the ball out of their final third so they don't go forward in any cohesive way. And you can take advantage of that as well. So there are a lot of benefits to that style that are not just, we got a turnover and now we've got a 1v1 with the keeper, but are more just about creating controlled chaos, you know, for the opposition going forward.
00:27:02
Speaker
You know, one play, the one time the center's defense really broke down aside from sort of a couple set pieces that they, they struggled on. Uh, but.
Defensive Breakdown Against Vancouver
00:27:13
Speaker
The one real breakdown was that second goal that Vancouver scored where they went just pure classic root one. Goalkeeper just lumps it forward. Brian white wins a header, uh, plays it through the Ryan gold. He splits two defenders. He slots is, is, you know, just about as easy of a, like this is, uh, you know, go back to England in 1965. I suppose you saw a lot of these goals. Uh, what did you see happen there?
00:27:44
Speaker
Brother, I wish I knew, uh, that was one of the more frustrating goals I've seen. The sounders gave up in a while because the first goal was annoying, but it was just new who getting beat for header. And that's, I mean, that's going to happen. And it wasn't, it was a really good ball. Yes.
00:28:03
Speaker
And I say knew who got beat and he did, but I don't think that he did anything egregiously wrong. He just, he just got beat. It happens from time to time. The attacker gets got, got position and, and did well with it. This goal was if you give up that goal to, I dunno, Jordan Morris, right? Let's say the sound score that goal and it's Jordan Morris that that scores it.
00:28:31
Speaker
It's going to be annoying, but you can maybe forgive it because he has or lay of shoe, right. Or, you know, 2012 show out plot or something. Right. Somebody that's like unquestioned burner that everybody knows has a ton of pace that just gets a good run and makes, hey, Ryan Gold is not slow, but he's not. He's not that.
00:28:56
Speaker
He's not a burner. Jackson Reagan is not a slowpoke. And I think outside of this, Reagan had a great game. Yeah. Alex looked like he had been playing a lot of minutes all over the world. But this was the only
00:29:12
Speaker
instance in which that like really felt like it cost them because they, they were beat before it all was even past them. It was, it was crazy. Yeah. And it's one of those goals where it's inexcusable. It can, I don't think that it can ever really happen in the modern game, especially in a situation like that, where it wasn't like a quick free kick or anything. I mean, it was a goalkeeper line it up. Yeah. And, um,
00:29:39
Speaker
but it's so inexcusable that it almost doesn't worry me.
Sounders' Resilience and Strong Mindset
00:29:44
Speaker
Like I just can't see them giving up that goal again. Right? Yeah. Um, but it's, it's extremely annoying and I don't, I don't even know how you analyze what happened. I mean, there's a goalkeeper pun. One, they're, they're big dude, one, a header in the midfield. It's all right to the right guy. And he just split the defenders and they were just several steps too slow. Um,
00:30:10
Speaker
And that, that just doesn't happen very often at this level. You hope you don't give up another goal like that all season. I don't remember the last time they gave up a goal like that. It's, it's just not, it's one of those things where it happens and you go either that should never happen or it should happen all the time. Like there's no, like
00:30:27
Speaker
It's like, either, why is this not the only way that players, that teams attack set defenses, or you should literally never give this goal up because it makes no sense. And I, you know, I guess the, it should be a goal you never give up, I guess is really the answer.
00:30:48
Speaker
Anyway, it was just very frustrating. But to the standards credit, they came back and scored almost right away. And it was sort of like, and I think that was sort of indicative of their mindset in this game, which was they never really let their heads get down. They, you know, we've seen that happen a lot this year where they give up a goal and they may as well have given up 10. And this was one where they
00:31:12
Speaker
They just kept fighting back and they, and they really played on the front foot the whole time, uh, for, you know, really for most of the game. And it was just, I just thought very encouraging performance. Uh, it, it has, I think that was the most encourage I felt about the sounders play, uh, really since, since the St. Louis game. Uh, and.
00:31:34
Speaker
And it wasn't, like you said, it wasn't a perfect game. It wasn't flawless. There were lots of little things that you can nitpick about, but there was just a lot of little, a lot of both big and little things that I thought were good. You know, I don't think there was anyone's performance who I was really overly down on.
Player Development Highlights: Vargas and Cleveland
00:31:51
Speaker
You know, I will say Obed Vargas still is seemingly like playing catch up a little bit in terms of
00:31:58
Speaker
uh, looking like he belongs aside from a few moments where he looks really, really good. Uh, but he's, you know, he seems a little, a little step slow here and there. He's not as involved in the game as I would like, but you know, these are, these are nitpicks. Uh, but you know, this is a, and I, we should say Stefan Cleveland also had a really strong game. Uh, the two goals he gave up, I don't know, he could really do a whole lot about, but he made two huge, huge saves. Uh,
00:32:23
Speaker
Uh, the, the last of which was on Brian white off of a throw in where you could just see in slow, almost feel like that play was unfolding in slow motion where there's a deep throw in and, and it just is allowed to bounce in the box and you're like, Oh no, what's going to happen here? And Brian white puts a quick shot on frame that, that, uh, Cleveland was quick to and strong too. Uh, and, uh, and it looks like he's going to get another start tomorrow.
00:32:51
Speaker
and potentially on the weekend, but just an overall really encouraging performance that makes me feel much more enthusiastic about going into the league's cup break looking good. Yeah. And I do think Vancouver is ninth in the league or in the West right now. They're barely above the red line.
00:33:15
Speaker
And I think that I was surprised at how good they were. And I don't think they were good in a way that exposes the Sounders as not being that good in this game. I think they're a much better team than the record indicates. They do have a positive goal difference. A lot of their underlying numbers look good. They have been pretty brutal on the road, but they've been great at home.
00:33:36
Speaker
And they killed the Sounders the last time they were there. They did beat them, beat them off the park completely. I thought gold is always otherworldly against the Sounders, but I thought Brian white was really good. Yeah. They, they have a, they have a good team and to go in there and beat them only their second loss at home this year.
00:33:56
Speaker
I think that maybe the fact that they are where there are in the standings overall is sort of diminishing the fact that this is actually a pretty good one for the Sounders and one that I would have felt good about back in April. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's probably a good place to call this a segment.
Preview of Upcoming Game Against San Jose
00:34:14
Speaker
We're going to come back, uh, talk, uh, take a few questions from our sub-stacked subscribers, uh, and then talk about a few other things. Uh, you listening to no scientists.
00:34:26
Speaker
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00:34:56
Speaker
Welcome back to NOS Adietta. So like I said, we have a few questions from sub-sex subscribers, but before that, do a little bit of a preview for San Jose. The game is, by the time you're listening to this, it will be today. We're recording this on Tuesday, but the game is Wednesday.
00:35:17
Speaker
The Sounders have since 2015 really dominated this series. I think they had only lost once up until recently, but now San Jose has won two of the last three meetings, including the last meeting. They are trying to win
00:35:34
Speaker
two straight games against the Sounders for the first time since 2015. The Sounders have definitely dominated this rivalry recently. San Jose, as you may remember, dominated the rivalry before that.
00:35:52
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a good test. San Jose is going to be missing their goalkeeper, Danielle, who, I don't know if people realize this or not, but he was actually leading the league in, or he is leading the league in terms of
00:36:07
Speaker
I guess what do they call it? G minus XG, I think is the stat that I think most people agree is probably the best tell of how good a goalkeeper is. Basically, he's preventing more goals than you would expect than anyone else in the league. And in his place, they're going to get JC Marcinkowski, who
00:36:31
Speaker
has actually been okay this year, but for my money, one of the more overrated goalkeepers in MLS, I've never really understood why this is a player who is sort of like on the fringe of the US national team, but I don't know, maybe those are going to be famous last words.
00:36:45
Speaker
Yeah, you never know. San Jose is an interesting one because they're kind of in that mold of Vancouver that we were just talking about where they've been absolute dog shit on the road, one six and four away from home. Although they're one win against the Sounders. Right. Pretty good at home though, six, one and four.
00:37:11
Speaker
Records like that are the records until they're not. And it's not like San Jose is a exceptionally talented team. I think personally, from what I've seen of them this year, the Whitecaps are a better team, even though they're below San Jose in the standings and in points per game. But given the amount of rotation the Sounders are likely to have to do in this game,
00:37:41
Speaker
I would be thrilled with the point. I would be absolutely thrilled with the point in this game. I would do. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's okay. Um, you can't win every game when you have this many of them. So no.
00:37:52
Speaker
You know, at the same time, it sounds like I would expect to put something closer to a full strength lineup, just for no other reason than the schemes at home. They're coming off of a, of a relatively short road trip to LA. Uh, but they are missing Jackson Yule. They're missing Cade Cowell. They're missing Danielle. Uh, they are a complete mess in terms of their defense. They, they have, uh, they really don't have a solid defense right now. Um,
00:38:22
Speaker
at least in terms of like personnel as far as that goes. So, I mean, this is a game the sounders, I think should feel like they can be competitive in, you know, like if they can get out of there or the point, I would be thrilled with that, but I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't really put anything past it. What's, I'm very curious to see how much rotation the sounders actually use. My suspicion is it would, it'll be sort of like a half and half thing where they, most of the
00:38:50
Speaker
I would expect most of the veteran attackers to be held out like Jau Paulo, Rui Diaz, and
00:39:02
Speaker
maybe Lidero, and then my suspicion may be New Who gets the day off too. We'll see. But I think they can probably put out most of their defense. Alex Roldan probably has to sit as well. You would hope actually. About anyone, I hope Alex Roldan sits. I don't know. We talked about this last week, but he traveled like 18,000 miles in three weeks.
00:39:29
Speaker
That's an insane amount. It's just, that's a lot of travel and playing in international games, which are tend to be pretty grindy, right? Yeah. He's, he went from Seattle to Japan to South Korea. And then I think to Miami, New York and Houston. Yeah, that's, that's a lot. That's a lot. Yeah. And then, you know, four days later,
00:39:57
Speaker
Obviously Vancouver to Seattle, San Jose is not nothing compared to those flights, but that's still, you know, a lot of time on an airplane. I, I, I hope not only, I kind of hope he gets to just stay at home, frankly, but we'll see. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. But yeah, I mean, these games are always kind of a wildcard. I think on paper, San Jose looked like pretty clear favorites.
00:40:22
Speaker
similar absences, similar levels of absences, almost identical really in terms of importance starting keeper, um, two key attacking pieces. Um, but, and you know, San Jose has been great at home. Sounders have not impressed in terms of the attack, um, which, you know, maybe sort of makes San Jose feel a little bit better about their shaky defense. Uh, but it's midweek game in MLS and in July and
00:40:52
Speaker
you never know what's going to happen in these games. And San Jose did lose their last game at home, although it was the St. Louis who were a pretty good team. But, you know, yeah, it's, I'm not optimistic, but I'm also not completely just conceding this game.
00:41:07
Speaker
Yeah, that's probably a good way of putting it. So speaking of the Sounders or of international duty, I don't know if you watched it or not, but the US played Canada in the Gold Cup
US Men's National Team Performance and Fan Dynamics
00:41:21
Speaker
quarterfinals. Both Jordan Morris and Christian Roldan came off the bench in that one.
00:41:25
Speaker
Uh, neither one of them factored into the penalty shootout. Um, but man, I'm, I'm a little frustrated in part because I don't think Jordan Morris is fit. I don't, I really, you know, the more, you know, he's only played in two games over there. Uh, he missed two with actually, he did actually miss two with injury, but he just does not look himself. And I'm a little frustrated that he's even there. Like I saw, I saw him get caught from behind.
00:41:54
Speaker
Yeah, which you just do without the ball, right? Like dead sprint. He had a he had a head start and he lost the sprint. And I don't remember who it was that beat him, but it wasn't.
00:42:05
Speaker
It wasn't Alfonso Davies. So yeah, I would tend to agree that I don't think he's, he's fully fit. Yeah. And so my, my expectation is that he, you know, maybe like, I dunno, I guess he's supposed to play in the all-star game. I wouldn't mind him. I definitely wouldn't mind him sitting out the all-star game, but I don't know if I'm even really expecting him to play too much in the league's cup. Like just give the guy, if he needs time to rest, let the guy rest.
00:42:36
Speaker
Yeah, and Jordan is a player who seemingly long breaks actually are beneficial for him. Unlike a lot of players who can get kind of rusty, he seems to be sort of reenergized a lot of the time and looks at his best when he's had some time to recuperate.
00:42:52
Speaker
I would be completely fine with him not playing in the league's cup or at least not starting at all and only getting the spot appearances off the bench. Yeah. Uh, Christian rolled on though. I thought I had a positive influence on the game. You know, he, he was the last sub in overtime and he didn't do a ton, but he was pumping in crosses into the box at a time when that's sort of just what needed to happen is, uh, yeah.
00:43:15
Speaker
someone needed to just start putting balls into the box and hope something good happened. And, uh, and I will say Jordan Morris did, I think when the header that led to the own goal, uh, that you did that sent it into, into penalties, uh,
00:43:31
Speaker
But it was a funny game. The US obviously won on penalties. And Matt Turner just did his thing in the shootout. But do you find yourself caring at all about this tournament? So I think I've come to the conclusion that I feel not to the same degree, I'm a little more invested.
00:43:56
Speaker
a little less invested in the US national team, but it's similar to how I feel about the Seahawks where I like the team. I want them to do well. Right. But a lot of their fans are so annoying that I can't be fully invested. Yeah. And I'm not going to watch every game. I'm not that emotionally invested. If they get to the, I watched the shootout. Um, I think actually I put it on when I, when I heard Jordan was coming on.
00:44:25
Speaker
I'll, you know, if they get to the final, I'll probably watch, watch most of it, but it's not appointment viewing for me by any stretch. Yeah. And, um, it's, you know, and also this, like the goal, this is a B team gold cup. Very B team. Yeah. Um, I watched the least cup final cause it was the A team, but I just, I don't understand how the U S has, I think potentially the best team they've ever had.
00:44:55
Speaker
I think that they have so much talent on this team. Not all the players have maybe lived up to their potential, but I think they have a really deep team. The A team has a lot of players playing at a very high level, maybe more than they've ever had. Some of the best teams had a ton of guys playing at a high level in Europe, but also had a lot of guys playing in MLS.
00:45:20
Speaker
this, you know, the say team doesn't like it's, it's all guys playing regular minutes and big leagues in Europe. Yeah. And that's, it's entirely possible. The only thing that matters, but, but the vibes are just everybody's, they win everything in CONCACAF. They're clearly the best team in CONCACAF for the first time in my lifetime. Right. I think, because I think, I think that those early 2000s teams were, were pretty clearly in hindsight overrated. Um, they're, they're hosting the world cup.
00:45:49
Speaker
They won the League's Cup, they have a good shot at the Gold Cup, they have clearly surpassed Mexico, and everybody's pissed off all the time. That's why I can't be invested. I know, it's very weird. I do kind of get the sense that
00:46:08
Speaker
things are starting to turn around for Christian a little bit. And maybe this is just because I've blocked so many US men's national team players on Twitter. But some of the people who I think are reality based and have still been very skeptical of Christian have started kind of saying a different tune about him lately.
00:46:27
Speaker
So maybe people can realize, you know, for a guy that's going to be like a rotational player on the B team, maybe he's not so bad. You know, maybe this is actually the caliber of player you'd expect from that and can stop, you know, brutalizing them as much as they, as they have in the past.
00:46:46
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, there is, there just is, it's an interesting dynamic. I think it's, it's really, there's a, there's a segment of the fan base who really only wants to see two types of players, uh, with the national team. They want to see the obvious a-teamers and then they want to see the youngest possible
00:47:06
Speaker
players who have any promise, like if it's not going to be the teamers, give me the 19 year olds or the 22 year olds that are playing in, you know, some smaller league and I want to see what they look like. And that's just not really a realistic way. I think to build out a national team program, you need sort of like your
00:47:27
Speaker
you know, your domestic based B team, I think to be competitive. And because it's like, those are guys that you're going to eventually have to use in important games, uh, at some point down the road, uh, because even God, sorry. Oh, I was going to say, it's just like, it's,
00:47:46
Speaker
Like you, you can't guarantee, like it's entirely realistic. I think that the next world cup will feature very, very minimal impact from MLS based players. And you know, that's like on some level that's kind of like, uh, I actually, I don't know if I that bother, I don't know if it bothers me because as long as it's, as long as that's merit based, I don't, I don't know that that's that big of a deal, but invariably you're going to need MLS based players to like fill out this program.
00:48:16
Speaker
And to be competitive and eventually there's going to be qualifiers and, and you're going to, you know, you're going to end up using 40 odd players during the, the qualifying cycle. And it's like, they can't all, you know, they're not, you can't just call up 21 year olds that are, you know, in Siri B you got to, you got to have, uh, you got to have guys getting meaningful MLS minutes. Uh, but whatever that's a whole other danger.
00:48:47
Speaker
in Europe, are playing for the U20 team. And that's where they should be. Because if you're a 19-year-old that is not Gio Reyna or Christian Pulisic when he was that age, you're not very clearly at a near world world-class level at that age. And almost none of them are.
00:49:10
Speaker
a really good way to stunt your growth is to either get called up and never play a second and sit on the bench instead of getting meaningful international minutes at your age level or get meaningful minutes and get completely outclassed. And there's this idea that the way that you become a good player is by getting
00:49:32
Speaker
embarrassed, like by getting relegated and by, by playing up a level on a regular basis and getting, you know, humbled into becoming a better player. And there's no evidence that that is true. And a lot of evidence that that's total horse shit, but it persists. It persists. And I think it's like, if you don't want to watch MLS players, don't watch the gold cup.
00:49:56
Speaker
Right. Easiest thing in the world. Easiest thing in the world not to do. Exactly. Exactly. Well, let's, uh, we do have a couple of questions. I want to get to these. Uh, this first one is from Clayton H. He says not to over index just on that save, but it felt like Cleveland made several athletic saves, which I can't imagine fry doing anymore.
Potential Goalkeeper Controversy
00:50:15
Speaker
I'm a big fry defender, but what would it take to have a keeper controversy on her hands? I think you've mentioned before that Schmetz might value Fry's passing and control over an acrobatic keeper. Is that the main difference still?
00:50:27
Speaker
I think Sevenfri has made a couple of pretty acrobatic saves this year. I mean, he's definitely not as agile as he once was. There are saves that he made a few years ago that he can't make now.
00:50:40
Speaker
I'm not convinced he couldn't have made either of the saves that Cleveland made. They were fantastic saves. But I think if Cleveland puts in another really good performance and proves that he can do it consistently and Steph comes back and struggles, I think that's probably what it takes.
00:51:01
Speaker
Um, I do think Steph is still, we got, we got some, some heat for this the last time we talked about this. Uh, but I do think Steph is a much better distributor of the ball. That's not the same as saying, I think he's a good distributor or that he's.
00:51:19
Speaker
He, but I think he's better than Cleveland. And, um, I think, I think he's, he's better than he gets credit for as well. Um, and I, and I do think that's important to the way the Sounders tend to want to play, although maybe it's not as important, you know, as, as it was at that point, cause they've kind of changed up the way they build a little bit, but yeah, I think if, if Cleveland does well against San Jose and, and if, you know, if he gets another start after that, if he does well in that game and stuff struggles, yeah, who knows.
00:51:49
Speaker
No, I will say that at the very least I feel reasonably confident with, I don't, I don't think the drop off from Cleveland to fry is too significant right now. Uh, I will point out that Stephen Fry has 11 shutouts as one of the best, you know, he's not necessarily making amazing saves, but he's doing a great job of, I think of organizing and just generally sort of like making the,
00:52:19
Speaker
making his life easy, I'll say. All right, this one is from Oscar Paul 33. It says, in the post-game interview, Schmetzer seemed so hesitant to fully compliment Leo Chiu on his performance, even in a week where he ended up being MLS Player of the Week. Have noticed this in the past two. He seems to hedge and say that Leo has tremendous attacking talent and has room to grow. He then called out how he lofted a ball to Nico instead of delivering it on the ground. Sheesh, the kid had two goals in the game.
00:52:46
Speaker
Is this a case of tough love or not wanting choose ego to get too big, or is Brian still such a defense first guy that he's not loving the defensive gaps in Leo's game? I don't think Brian is a defense first guy necessarily any more than any other coach.
00:53:04
Speaker
To me, it just seems like he's trying to motivate Leo Chiu to continue improving. Yeah, I think he sees a young, a relatively young player who is maybe prone to, you know, reading his own clay man. Like I'll put it this way. Leo Chiu, I, I, I happened to
00:53:23
Speaker
tag Leo Chu in a tweet today and he retweeted it. Hey, which I appreciate, but you know, there's a certain, uh, kind of player who is retweeting, who's on Twitter enough to be retweeting, uh, comments that are made about him. Right. And, and I, I don't, I don't begrudge him that, but I do think that's sort of like the mentality that Brian is trying to get at is like, don't read, don't, you know, it's like, I'm going to keep you grounded if you're not going to keep yourself grounded kind of thing. And I, and I will say,
00:53:52
Speaker
on the ball that he had, uh, that he was talking about, he makes a good point. Like if he delivers that ball on the ground to, uh, Nico's feet, maybe that's a goal instead of a, you know, a very speculative header from 16 yards out or whatever it was. Uh, and had that had no chance of beating the goalkeeper. Uh, and so it's like, those are the, those are the little nuances that, and does he have to deliver that?
00:54:19
Speaker
that criticism in the press. I obviously he could, he could say that privately, but you know, um, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not really one to question his methods right now with Leo too. He seems to be getting a lot out of him. Leo too. Doesn't seem to be super bothered by it. Um, you know, sometimes you just sort of have to let those dynamics you on some level, you have to kind of trust that the coach
00:54:41
Speaker
knows what he's doing there. So, but I can understand, I do think that your Oscar, I do think you're correct that, uh, that Leo does seem to get picked out a little bit more and, and sort of nit picked in the press more than, you know, like, uh, Nico Ledero does not get picked in the press by, by branch Messer, uh, not going to improve that much.
00:55:08
Speaker
Right. Right. Right. You know, and that's right. That's fair. Uh, but anyway, uh, well that's, that's a show, Aaron. Um, another one in the, in the box.
00:55:20
Speaker
But I'm going to see... I may come back on Thursday and do another show. We'll see how it goes. But Aaron, thank you for doing this. Thank you to our listeners for hanging out. Thanks to Lickit for producing this thing. Thank you to our sponsors, Fullpool Wines, Watson's Counter, and of course our sub-sex subscribers. I am Jeremiah Shannon. This is No Study Yetis. And remember, you'll never get out alone.
00:56:24
Speaker
We love you. Let's win another one!