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SUMMER SERIES
Join Ross & Adele with a special guest James Witcombe from Smaart Recruitment as they discuss an extended question of the week 'What should recruiters know about dealing with a candidate with a criminal record?'
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Transcript
Recruiting Job Seekers with Criminal Records
00:00:07
Speaker
And this week's question of the week is a special summer edition, an extended question of the week. Question of the week this week, what should recruiters know about dealing with job seekers who have a criminal record?
Introduction of Guest James Whitcomb
00:00:21
Speaker
And today Adele and I have a special guest, James Whitcomb. James, welcome and please introduce yourself.
00:00:30
Speaker
Thanks, Ross. Great to be here. I'm a big listener of the podcast. It keeps me updated. My background, I've been a director at Smart Recruitment for some time now. I joined Smart in 2005, so I just passed 18 years of agency recruitment.
Supporting Disadvantaged Women with Fitted for Work
00:00:45
Speaker
And four years ago, I was well-founded a business called the Candida Coach, which is an online coaching platform for job seekers.
00:00:53
Speaker
Fantastic. Thanks for being here, James. And we're really excited to have the opportunity of a third voice in our podcast because we only have Ross and I normally, as you know. And you have some case study, a lived experience around today's topic. So we'd love for you to share some more detail about that. Tell us about your experience specifically in relation to candidates with a criminal record.
00:01:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's been quite a journey, Del, probably started six or seven years ago at Smart. We were looking for some ways that we could, I guess, contribute back to the community that were meaningful. So we've been doing, you know, those Friday fundraisers in the office, but we wanted to do something that was a bit more meaningful.
00:01:39
Speaker
I was looking for an organization that would actually be able to benefit from using our skills as recruiters and came across Fitted for Work, an organization that helped disadvantaged women back into work.
Realizations from Visiting Women's Prisons
00:01:54
Speaker
So obviously women that are unemployed, but also women that are facing normally a second layer of some type of adversity. So it might be language barriers, they might be new migrants to Australia, they might be
00:02:09
Speaker
homeless fleeing from domestic violence, or there might be people who have spent time in prison and are coming back into the workforce. So, yeah, we started running some workshops through smart recruitment for women in the fitted for work program. And then we were invited to do so in the two Victorian women's prisons. And so my first experience with prisoners and people with a criminal record was
00:02:37
Speaker
traveling out to Tarangawa, which is a low-level security prison towards Bendigo. And a real nerve-wracking experience the first time when you think, oh, I'm going to be going into prison. What's it going to be like? But the overall experience for me leaving prison that day and having met about a dozen women who were about to be released was that I found that if I
00:03:05
Speaker
thought of these women as candidates, and I imagine them in the boardroom at smart recruitment, they would have fitted into most of our group assessments. The only real difference was they were wearing green track suits.
Stu Holmes' Story and Challenges
00:03:18
Speaker
So quite quickly, I was very surprised at, I guess, the potential that the majority of the people that I was meeting who were going to be coming out of prison had.
00:03:30
Speaker
We were talking about people who were bookkeepers or were dental nurses. Many of them had strong qualifications and strong skills, but all were going to be facing a tremendous challenge to file their next job because they now had a criminal record. So that's where my journey started. And, you know, as it was more magic to talk about now, I had some more firsthand experience over the last couple of years.
00:03:59
Speaker
So that is something that I gained a firsthand insight into, James, because as you know, I was at the Australasian Talent Conference two weeks ago and on stage was Stu Holmes and yourself. And you conducted what I thought was an incredibly well handled interview with Stu.
00:04:23
Speaker
And I think it had a profound impact on the audience, certainly did have a profound impact on me. So perhaps you could share a little of Stu's story and that will provide the additional context for the other part of insight or the other insight you have into candidates with a criminal record.
Overcoming Barriers for Stu
00:04:45
Speaker
Yeah, so Stu Holmes was one of the two founders of Smart Recruitment. He was my manager from 2005, I don't know, 2005, I don't know, about 2015 when he left Smart. And you can go into Stu's own personal journey through some other podcasts, including Pete Watson's. But basically Stu left Smart and he had some real challenges in his personal life.
00:05:14
Speaker
He had a breakdown of his marriage. He went from being a very successful director of SMART to not doing so well in terms of employment. And that led to substance abuse, which led to loss of access to his son, and then several years of, I guess, spiraling behavior.
00:05:35
Speaker
which saw him commit an armed robbery while he was, in his own words, off his head and woke up with a dozen police in his living room and off he went to jail. And so by this stage, Drew was just a friend of mine and I wrote, you wrote,
00:05:57
Speaker
I wrote to him a couple of times when he was in prison. He was fortunate to get a reduced sentence as he says largely because it was during COVID and they were trying to keep people out of prisons. But as I watched you come out of prison, I was personally quite amazed at how challenging it was for somebody who was an outstanding recruiter, the best interviewer I've ever come across to actually get another job.
00:06:27
Speaker
I started helping Stu and putting him forward for potential roles. Now sort of around 18 to 24 months ago when the market was going crazy, we were coming out of COVID and from an agency point of view, we just couldn't keep up with the work. I had many clients ask us, you know, have we got any recruiters we know that they could hire whether it was short-term, long-term, contract or temp. And so each time I put Stu forward,
00:06:53
Speaker
Um, it was all sounding positive until, um, you know, there was an understanding that he had a, had a criminal record. Uh, and so what went from sounding like a great suitable candidate, when can they start was, you know, the door was immediately closed upon hearing about him having a criminal record.
Advocating for Candidates with Criminal Records
00:07:12
Speaker
Um, so there was one time though, where a gentleman called Andy Martin, who was, um, the TA lead at, at EML.
00:07:21
Speaker
asked me again, he said, have you got anybody who's got a six month contract? We're just desperate for recruiters. And so I kind of took the reverse approach and just said, look, Andy, you know, I've got somebody that I know really well that I'm happy to vouch for who's an amazing recruiter and a great interviewer. But before I put him forward, I do need to let you know that he's got a criminal record. I'm happy to vouch for him. He's rehabilitated. He'll do a great job, but I'd rather let you know that up front.
00:07:49
Speaker
And so that changed the messaging and Andy said, look, thanks for letting me know, leave it with me, I'll see what I can do. Lo and behold, Stu got the job, worked there for six months, did a great job, it was a six month contract.
00:08:03
Speaker
He's now moved on to other things, which we might talk about in a moment, but essentially without having a friend in recruitment who was happy to personally vouch for him, it was just a time where I was really given exposure to how hard it is for somebody, even with great skills and great experience to break through. I don't know if it's a, I don't think glass sealing is the right word, but certainly a glass barrier to lend a job again.
00:08:32
Speaker
Do you think that's some advice for people listening to this as a recruiter if you are working with a candidate with challenges like that? Is it about being their advocate and being upfront about those challenges, things like a criminal record in telling your client and trying to really unpack it? What do we need to know?
00:08:53
Speaker
I think the deeper the relationship you have with your clients, it's not necessarily about calling on a favor, but in some ways I felt like I did when I pushed you forward. But if you have a great relationship with your clients, a consultive relationship, not a transactional one,
00:09:11
Speaker
then I think you open up the opportunity to putting forward more diverse candidates. It's probably not something you're going to try with a new client on the first roll. You need to probably develop a bit of a track record there. I think that's where the challenge comes in.
00:09:28
Speaker
Not historically, but our clients come to us and use a recruitment agency. They pay us good money, and there's that expectation there that the candidates are going to be very high quality. They're going to be the top 1% or 2% in the market. Somebody with a criminal record probably doesn't fit that mould.
Preventing Employment Discrimination
00:09:48
Speaker
In many ways, we need to have those conversations with our client to say, look, here's somebody who is outside of the mold and this is why I'm putting them forward. It's not probably going to be, here's the resume, dot point number one, they've got a criminal record because the client will just move past that really quickly.
00:10:08
Speaker
But I think that there is the proof if you put forward somebody as a recruiter that you believe is going to be successful in the role and then they are, well, the next time you do it with that same client, it's going to be a much smoother process. But it is a difficult conversation to have, particularly the first time around. And this is probably a good time to introduce some guidelines and to advise our listeners what the
00:10:37
Speaker
Australian Human Rights Commission says about preventing discrimination in employment on the basis of criminal record, because I suspect many recruiters would not know that they can't blanket discriminate against a candidate just because of a criminal record. And in fact, reading point two on the document that the Australian Human Rights
00:11:06
Speaker
provides with respect to guidelines for employment of people with a criminal record, it says employers should only ask job applicants and employees to disclose specific criminal record information if they have identified that certain criminal convictions or offences are relevant to the inherent requirements of the job. So to provide a specific example,
00:11:35
Speaker
If you're a payroll officer and you have been convicted of fraud, then it would be a reasonable thing to say. You cannot be considered for another payroll officer job because fraud is a relevant criminal conviction with respect to the job. But that wouldn't be a relevant criminal conviction necessarily for someone who might be
00:12:03
Speaker
a stop and go worker on a roadwork site, for example. So perhaps, James, perhaps you might expand a bit on that from what you've learned from your own experience about the relevance of certain convictions in terms of selection criteria for jobs. So if you think about a crime, there's a broad spectrum, isn't there?
00:12:31
Speaker
So there's maybe the 18 year old who was caught smoking a joint, you know, between uni and high school, who gets a criminal record for that, um, all the way through to, you know, the most heinous crimes, uh, murder and whatnot. Uh, and there's obviously a lot in the middle. And unfortunately, um, people are branded with target, the same brush, painting the same brush. You've got to fail the criminal record test. We don't look any further. We don't look to understand.
00:13:00
Speaker
Again, it might've been something from 2007, which was an extremely minor crime. Unfortunately, people coming out of prison have that follow them. And so that's why my session with Stu was called Overcoming the Mistake of a Lifetime. Because we all make mistakes. Some of us make terrible mistakes, some of us make smaller mistakes. If it ends up being a mistake that is a criminal conviction, it is so hard for that person to
00:13:27
Speaker
get out of that shadow for the rest of their lives. But I think it comes back to the recruitment philosophy of a lot of people is looking for ways to rule candidates out rather than looking for opportunities to rule them in to be inclusive.
00:13:44
Speaker
Criminal record is probably the easiest way to discount a candidate from the job. And to your point, Russ, I would say that many recruiters and many organizations wouldn't understand that a criminal record needs to be relevant for the job, for it to be grounds for them to reasonably dismiss somebody from the role. I think on the other side, though, the actual ex-offender who comes out, and I've seen this a lot because when we go into prisons
00:14:14
Speaker
and we run our mock interview sessions and resume preparation sessions. Nearly all the questions we receive from the people who are about to be released is, how do I get a job with a criminal record?
Disclosure of Criminal Records
00:14:27
Speaker
Now, not all employers are going to ask, first of all, if you're going for a hospitality role at the Corner Cafe, you know, to work 20 hours a week waiting tables, they're not going to, you know, extremely unlikely they're going to ask you.
00:14:42
Speaker
And so the issue then can be for many ex-offenders is do they choose to voluntarily disclose that they've got a record and in some ways get that skeleton out of the closet? Or do they take the job and continue to work?
00:15:00
Speaker
kind of with that skeleton in the closet and the fear that maybe one day if the employer finds out it's not going to end very well because the employer is going to feel like that person has held information from them.
00:15:13
Speaker
So it's a multi-dimensioned impact that it has on the individual. So if an individual can get a job with a criminal record that's out in the open, it's a wonderfully liberating experience for them and really does give them a platform for them to turn their life around.
00:15:33
Speaker
Thanks for that, James. It is really interesting, as you said, Ross, that many recruiters may not be aware of that piece in the legislation. So I'm interested in the risk, though. There are recruiters listening to this. There are agency owners listening to this. If we are trying to assist people, we found a candidate where we feel perhaps the conviction isn't related to the job. As you said, we've got a stop-and-go worker with a fraud conviction.
00:16:02
Speaker
Where is our risk though as a recruiter? If we recommend that person and the client takes them on and something goes wrong, where does that, you know, where does that leave us? What's the risk? Yeah, I love, I'm a big AFL fan and I love listening on a Monday morning to Jared Wightly and David King.
00:16:22
Speaker
And David King always talks about, it's okay to be beaten by the opposition, but don't be beaten by what you know about them. And so in many ways, if you're putting forward somebody, I think with a criminal record,
00:16:36
Speaker
It's really unlikely that that is what's going to mean they're unsuccessful once they get into the job. It really is. So if somebody has a fraud conviction, it's really unlikely that they're going to be unsuccessful because of some type of fraud activity. So I think if we're out in the open with what the risks are with the individual and with the client, then I think the risks are quite low. I think we're not actually going to be, we're not going to be beaten here by something we know because it's been spoken about.
00:17:06
Speaker
I think the other challenge for people who are looking for work with a criminal record can be their colleagues in the workplace. So there is a real fear there that they might be found out to have a criminal record or what are other people going to think of me. So that person though, it's in some ways to me, it's like when you hire somebody into an recruitment role for the first time,
00:17:35
Speaker
You know, you'll probably get them for three to five years because it's their first opportunity. They get their training. They're extremely loyal to that organization. Hiring somebody who's maybe spent three or four years in prison, has been out for some time, would really love to get an opportunity but just cannot get one.
00:17:52
Speaker
If they're worth a pinch of salt, they are going to do everything that they can to reward that employer. And so with the people that we work with who are coming out of prison, we coach them on how to have that conversation.
00:18:07
Speaker
A lot of them say, how do I disclose that I've got a criminal record? And it's a bit of a long process, but what we say is, don't walk into the door, sit down for the interview and open up with, I need to let you know I've got a criminal record.
Fostering Inclusive Recruitment Processes
00:18:24
Speaker
You wanna build up as many positives as you can first. So if you prepare well for the interview, form well in the interview, if you do all those small things we've coached you on,
00:18:33
Speaker
At the end of the interview, it's perhaps looking at the recruiter in the eye and saying, hey, before we finish, there's something I need to tell you. I need to tell you that I've got a criminal record, but what I want to let you know is that's in my past. I made a mistake. I'm fully rehabilitated. If I'm successful in getting this role though, this is going to have a life altering impact for me. You're going to change my life and I guarantee you that I won't let you down.
00:19:00
Speaker
So if the individual can control the conversation, or not control the conversation, but deliver a message in that way, tag on their heartstrings a little bit, then they're giving themselves a great opportunity. They're being really vulnerable.
00:19:14
Speaker
But in many ways, I've kind of got to have performed well up to that point. So the interviewer has a good first impression of them, can imagine them in the role. It's kind of like tick, tick, tick. And then they're going to bring in maybe a bit of a negative. But they've built up some positives first.
00:19:33
Speaker
And that is a perfect segue to number one on the Australian Human Rights Commission guidelines that I mentioned earlier. And point one is employers should create an environment which will encourage an open and honest exchange of criminal record information between an employer and job applicant or employee.
00:20:01
Speaker
And that is pretty much what you've described, James. So what about the practicalities for agencies? How have or are smart applying everything that's been learned about?
00:20:18
Speaker
Stu's success and working with people in the fitted for work program to help smart operate within the law, but also providing, still providing a very good service to candidates and clients. It's a real challenge Ross. So I certainly sitting here today don't feel like it's been very successful, but I feel like we are at
00:20:47
Speaker
You know, maybe we're at a little bit of a turning point when, you know, I would love to see, as we see on some advertisements now, you know, First Nations Australians are encouraged to apply or older people, so to speak, are encouraged to apply. I would love to see on some job ads, you know, people with a criminal record are encouraged to apply.
00:21:11
Speaker
Because when it comes to putting forward from an agency point of view, a candidate to a client, there needs to be the understanding that it's going to happen because otherwise it's a shock. Otherwise it's a shock. And again, it's extremely hard for this to be done by a junior consultant or somebody who doesn't have a strong relationship with clients. So it's a big challenge. It really is a big challenge. And then again, within your own client's organizations, you've got the TA team, you've got different line managers with different expectations.
00:21:41
Speaker
you really need to have an internal advocate and I think in many ways that's why if we're going to see a significant change in this area it needs to be employee of lead.
00:21:52
Speaker
And I know that can sound like a little bit of a cop-out and a lot of agencies say, yeah, we feel that we can only put forward what our clients are going to accept. But I think in some ways we need some organisations to shine a light on the benefits here of employing people with the CRM. Australia has the most expensive prison system in the world.
00:22:13
Speaker
to house a prisoner in Australia costs more money than any other country.
Success Stories from California Businesses
00:22:17
Speaker
But at the same time we don't have a lot of support for people who are coming out of prison with regards to finding and keeping them in work.
00:22:26
Speaker
Well, it certainly prompted me to recall an article I've read recently about a California tire recycling business that actively recruits from the local prison because the inherent requirements of almost all the jobs in that business mean that they can consider just about anybody. And they've found that generally the track record that they have in recruiting people
00:22:53
Speaker
from the prison has been very good. And so that is a almost the number one source of candidates these days. And I think that's a very encouraging way for an employer to consider that when you give people a second chance, not all of them are going to grasp grasp that second chance, but many will. And those that do often are your most loyal employees.
00:23:20
Speaker
And there are plenty of government subsidies available too for employing people with a CRN, particularly if they've been recently released from prison.
Closing and Acknowledgments
00:23:32
Speaker
That's great to know. So many really valuable tips around this topic. It feeds into inclusivity, if that's a hot topic in your business as well, but it also just makes some great business sense. There's a whole range of candidates that we're really overlooking. So thank you so much, James, for sharing your own personal stories, the smart case study, and some really valuable tips for our listening audience around
00:24:00
Speaker
how we can address this issue perhaps as an industry, but certainly help to consult to our clients about it as well. Thank you so much for your time. Good, thanks James.