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009 - Everybody’s Shakespeare (1934, 1939)
40 Plays7 months ago
“Shakespeare said everything. Brain to belly; every mood and minute of a man’s season… He wrote it with tears and blood and beer, and his words march like heart beats. He speaks to everyone.”
This week, we’re taking our first deep foray into the work of William Shakespeare as we take a look at Welles’s first actually published work (with Roger Hill) - Everybody’s Shakespeare! We’ll be discussing our histories both with the work of Shakespeare and the plays covered - The Merchant of Venice, Twelfth Night, and Julius Caesar.
Orson Welles as AI? Miss us with that: https://variety.com/2025/digital/news/orson-welles-ai-voice-storyrabbit-audio-storytelling-app-1236406112
Homework for next class - The Hearts of Age: https://youtu.be/pXKIMag5hHE
Follow us on our (admittedly limited) socials to keep up with assignments and other exciting Welles-related news:
- @wellesupod on Bluesky and YouTube
- Email us at wellesupod@gmail.com to let us know how we’re doing!
- Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify!
- Follow Hope at @hopelichtner on Bluesky, Instagram, and Tumblr
- Read Hope’s blog at highimhope.com
- Listen to Hope’s other podcasts - High on Cartoons Presents DuckTakes!, The Matrix Reclamations, and The Lanes Between
- Follow Stephen at @chewywalrus on Bluesky and Letterboxd
- Listen to Stephen’s other podcasts - Disenfranchised Podcast and The Pod and the Pendulum
- Check out Stephen’s novel - Check In, Check Out - on Amazon, now available in paperback or ebook: https://amzn.to/44idk8y
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Orson Welles' Influence
00:00:01
Speaker
Ladies and gentlemen, by way of introduction... I don't think any words can explain a man's life. The broadcasting system and its affiliated station presents... Columbia Network takes pride in presenting... Rogue Spud.
00:00:12
Speaker
We take you now to Grover Mills, New Jersey. Ladies and gentlemen, the director of the Mercury Theater and star of these broadcasts... There's a voice. Just a voice. I never really saw him.
00:00:26
Speaker
He was only the hero, horsesonwell a great lover, horsesonwell and a dirty dog.
Comedic Insights and Personal Reflections
00:00:31
Speaker
Good morning, this is Orson Welles speaking. How do you do, ladies and gentlemen? This is Orson Welles. This is Orson Welles, ladies and gentlemen. This is Orson Welles speaking.
00:00:39
Speaker
An unicorn. Well, here it is, if anybody wants to see it.
00:00:47
Speaker
And there's the bell. Everybody, please come and take your seats. Ladies, gentlemen, and NBs, go ahead and have a seat. We are about to begin.
00:01:00
Speaker
And there's no stopping this ball from rolling, goddammit. it it as as As a couple of of fine people once sang, nothing's going to stop us now. Right.
00:01:11
Speaker
I was god's going We can build this dream together, standing strong forever. Nothing's going to stop us now. I was going for something Sisyphusian, as in with like we've we've committed to this. We might as well keep rolling this ball up the goddamn hill.
00:01:30
Speaker
This large ball... And then when it rolls back down, we roll it right back up again. Well, what if the ball was, what if the ball from the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark was actually just Orson Welles on his side?
00:01:43
Speaker
um And yeah, and that's what we've got. That's what we've got. I'm sorry. That's probably incredibly mean. That is insanely mean and honestly a little fat phobic. I'm so sorry.
00:01:55
Speaker
I'm so sorry. I'm so, I cancel me. Cancel me. God damn it. I would never cancel you on your own podcast. How dare i Full disclosure, I have been zooted out of my mind on DayQuil and NightQuil for the past week. We delayed this recording for a week because I have been gonzo. So that's the energy we're starting off with.
00:02:19
Speaker
We we mirror in a it are both of us in a great headspace. I spent the last hour of my shift today on a single phone call. So we are just both in just optimal headspaces. Let's be clear.
00:02:29
Speaker
i it's we we Hey, we got the robot working at ah at work for the first time in four months today. Hey! I know, right? And I got giant googly eyes to put on it. so hey You you know and your googly eyes. i say swear.
00:02:44
Speaker
Man, that's it's what do you mean? The microphone has googly eyes on it right there. It's great. Oh, I know it does because I've seen the pictures.
00:02:55
Speaker
it's It's like I'm talking to a friendly face directly. That is staring at you agape. Yeah, you're in the meats you're in like the digital cyberspace here. you're you're You're just a series of ones and zeros to me.
00:03:10
Speaker
as As ever I have been, as ever I will be. I am asleep on the keyboard and you're just wake up, Neo.
Orson Welles' Life and Works
00:03:16
Speaker
Just like, yeah.
00:03:19
Speaker
Wow. Amazing that you would go right to the Matrix. What? This has been just a wild stream of consciousness today from your TAs. yeah this is Wells University. Welcome back to class.
00:03:34
Speaker
My friends, um I am one of your TAs, Stephen Foxworthy. My pronouns, he, him.
00:03:43
Speaker
I'm Hope Stow, she, her, and we accept ah Rolling Stones of all shapes and sizes here Welles U. Just going to dig myself deeper. It's like you got to dig yourself out eventually, right?
00:03:57
Speaker
Yep. Well, one would think, and yet... and yet and yet we And yet here we are. in the year of our lord twenty twenty five talking about nineteen thirty four is it stated nineteen thirty four today we are discussing ah the first piece of writing ah that we're crediting ah orson wells with again this podcast all about the life and work of orson wells and as of last week we started talking about capital t the capital w work
00:04:28
Speaker
which will be our consistent theme throughout the podcast up to this point. So going forward, we're kind of being going to be jumping from project to project and filling in relevant gaps as needed along the way.
00:04:40
Speaker
um So, so yeah, we'll, we'll, sometimes there'll be like a year or two in between projects and we'll try to fill in the gaps as best we can. Last we talked was looking for money.
00:04:55
Speaker
That's going to be most of it, yes. I mean, that's 90% of it, yes. ninety Yeah, absolutely. um ah Orson Welles' Corporate Shell. um We're going to get to that episode.
00:05:06
Speaker
um one of these that At some point, Hope and I are going to take like some pauses for the cause and just record like some supplementary episodes about like various topics and things, um including Orson Welles' Fuckboy, Orson Welles' Shell.
00:05:23
Speaker
We've got some... of this Yes, I mean, we we promised that in our first fucking episode, Hope, so... We promised that, like, six months before we began recording, so... Yeah, well, before we started releasing, yeah. Yeah, well, that too, yeah. Yeah.
00:05:38
Speaker
Oh, God, heaven. this This project has been gestating long before it met your ears, dear listener. Yeah. But yes, today we are talking about a book or a series of books, depending on kind of how you look at it. And honestly, the production history on this thing is fuck, or I should say publication history on this, is a fucking mess with no consistent answers.
00:06:01
Speaker
um So I'm going to do the best I can with that, because every source I read had something different to say about it. um But we're talking about the book that he co-wrote with Roger Hill. No, not the play he co-wrote with Roger Hill, but the book.
00:06:14
Speaker
He wrote with Roger Hill called Everybody's Shakespeare. Now, I think you mean... Sorry, go ahead. Sorry, I think you mean, real quick, the play he wrote with lowercase letters, smaller font.
00:06:27
Speaker
Roger Hill. Roger Hill. Yes. Roger Hill was also here. Orson Welles and... Again, you look at the cover of that of that play.
00:06:39
Speaker
Follow the link we included in the the episode previous to last episode. And yeah, you'll you'll see it in all its glory. um But no, Everybody Shakespeare, or as it was, released later in 1939 as The Mercury Shakespeare.
00:06:53
Speaker
We're going to talk about both editions today. So yes, we're covering from 1934 1939.
00:06:59
Speaker
But we're going to come circle right back to 1934 next week when we talk about the next project, which is Hearts of Age, his first film. um No, his first film was not Citizen Kane, bitches. Surprise!
00:07:15
Speaker
Gotcha! What? Pete and Tree on a podcast about Orson Welles? No. How could we say it ain't so? Now, yes, Citizen Kane is, of course, his first feature, but he did make at least one short film. In fact, several very short films as part of plays later on, which we'll talk about when we get into stuff like the hilariously named Too Much Johnson.
00:07:39
Speaker
um and and And several other plays like that. well We will talk about the theatrical work starting ah week after next in point of fact. So very excited to get into that.
00:07:50
Speaker
I know it's going to come up a lot, especially in the early days, but like anytime the title Too Much Johnson crops up, I'm just like, nope, okay. My mind is going to take a vacation for about four seconds and we're back.
00:08:04
Speaker
yep That episode is going to be rough for you, Hope. That episode is going to be rough. I don't think it comes up until next year. So you're fortunate that we you can you can wait until the new year before we have to engage with Too Much Johnson.
00:08:18
Speaker
But at some point, we're going to have to wrestle with Too Much Johnson. God. some At some point, we're going to have Too Much Johnson on our hands. And we're going to have to handle it.
00:08:32
Speaker
i I have nothing. I have nothing. I want to reply with something witty and Austin Powers-esque, but like my brain just shuts down, collapses.
00:08:44
Speaker
It cannot withstand the the onslaught of, in fact, too much Johnson. Look, you don't know what to do? There's just too much Johnson. There's just too much Johnson.
Cinematic History and Personal Opinions
00:08:57
Speaker
Not too many Johnsons. No, no, no, no. Too much Johnson. good got How have we gotten... it it's taken How has it taken us until episode 9 of this podcast to even broach the fact that there was a play called Too Much Johnson?
00:09:12
Speaker
I should just take my NyQuil now just for shit to get real weird. Yeah, like, okay, we got an hour until shit gets crazy, man. ah i Did we mention the headspace that we're both in this episode? Like, this this one was always going to get fucking weird.
00:09:26
Speaker
Yeah, welcome to Wells University after dark.
00:09:31
Speaker
What do you mean there's too much Johnson? oh yeah Some of us don't have enough. moooo Oh, I could make so many jokes right now. i did this is I'm setting you up and just admiring your restraint is what I'm doing right now. How deep into the trans experience do we want to go or do we want to talk about how?
00:09:53
Speaker
On May 11th, 1934, the great dust ball storm sweeps across the American and Canadian prairies traveling as far as the East Coast. Bonnie and Clyde are killed on May 21st in an ambush near Saley's, uh, sales, sale? Somewhere in Louisiana.
00:10:10
Speaker
Fuck it. June 30th, this guy, name keeps popping up. I wonder if we're going to hear more about him. Adolf Hitler stages a bloody purge of the Nazi party in the Night of the Long Knives.
00:10:21
Speaker
Oh, interesting. July 4th. Happy Independence Day because Hungarian physicist the Leo Slard, if I'm saying that I'm not saying that correctly. just can't imagine you are.
00:10:32
Speaker
Patents the chain reaction designed for the atomic bomb. August 3rd. That Hitler fella merges the offices of German chancellor and president, declaring himself, quote, Fuhrer, parentheses, leader.
00:10:45
Speaker
Ooh, uh-oh. and it You know, it's it's um it's amazing that nothing like that has ever or will ever happen again. It's certainly not going to parallel ellen anything we're talking about today on the show. And it's certainly not going to parallel anything we're going to be talking about in modern day history. yeah Right. yeah nothing Nothing like that had ever happened before and nothing like it will ever happen again. Thank goodness, too.
00:11:10
Speaker
I don't open up Reddit every morning and just go,
00:11:15
Speaker
Now what? hope why Why do you not fucking do that to yourself? Please. Because I because i tell myself no fucking Reddit after 8 p.m. No doom scrolling after 8 p.m. You know what? thing that is so reddit No Reddit between the hours of twelve a m and eleven fifty nine p m Just don't do it.
00:11:36
Speaker
That leaves me one minute to update my Christina Ricci page. Great. Oh, I forgot you're a Reddit mod. Sorry. Oh, yeah. no I'm a psychopath like that. I totally run a gimmick for fun.
00:11:49
Speaker
i would never fucking do that. You could not pay me to run Reddit page. I'm sorry. It's such a chill little nothing community. It's great. We are up to day 1595 of r slash Christina Ricci daily. Join us, won't you?
00:12:05
Speaker
Either way, on October 16th, Mao Zedong and 25,000 troops begin their 6,000-mile-long march from the south of China to the north and west. ah More at 11.
00:12:16
Speaker
December 1st, Leningrad mayor Sergio Kirov is assassinated and Joseph Stalin, that's a funny fellow, uses it as an excuse to begin his great purge of 34 to 38. really just talking about the pillars of modern history today, aren't we? God.
00:12:36
Speaker
Hitler, Stalin, and Orson Welles. This is kind of why I like Orson Welles so goddamn much. he he like He's in his late teens, early 20s during this this window of history.
00:12:50
Speaker
And he's going through, upsettingly, a lot of the same stuff we're going through. Rise of new media. um a Rise of fascism is back in in in trending.
00:13:05
Speaker
Um, they're trying to, uh, you know, we're, we're, we're dealing with fucking, uh, uh, prohibition of weed rather than prohibition of, uh, alcohol, but right all sorts of weird shit.
00:13:19
Speaker
February 22nd in film and TV. It happened one night directed by thank Frank Capra and starring Clark Gable and Claudette Colbert opens at New York's radio city music hall.
00:13:30
Speaker
gets best picture, director, actor, actress, and screenplay. oh You know, I've never seen Neither have I. it is it is one of my good friend Brett Wright's favorite rom-coms, and like among his his his kind of upper echelon.
00:13:48
Speaker
And like, i've i've never I've never seen it. Like, it's kind of ah an embarrassment on my part that I've never really engaged with that movie. Oh, God. Let's see. um oh do you want to hear Orson Wall's thoughts on Frank Capra? Yeah, actually, because I've got another thing about Frank Capra in a moment.
00:14:06
Speaker
Once you pull that up. In fact, I will read that or if you're ready. Let me – I'm looking – I'm trying to find it on the page here. Damn, faster. He's talking about W.C. Fields, and Peter Bogdanovich asks him if he was friendly with W.C. Fields. Friendly?
00:14:20
Speaker
One of his pen names was an in-joke just for me, Mahatma Kane Jeeves. The Jeeves part of it ah came from my telling him he ought to read P.G. Wodehouse because he's so funny.
00:14:32
Speaker
That kind of bothered Uncle Claude. ah That somebody else was funny. general Generosity was not his salient virtue. He says, what about Frank Capra? Enormous skill, but always that sweet Saturday evening post thing about him.
00:14:46
Speaker
Bogdanovich said, his pictures have an incredible pace. Well said, don't they just? I saw Mr. Smith goes to Washington again a while ago on television. That cast... Imagine a comedy today with a troop of actors like that.
00:14:59
Speaker
As you say, the speed of it, how much faster comedies were when directors were laboring under the terrible burden of producers who kept telling them to snap it up. The performance of Jimmy Stewart is beyond praise.
00:15:12
Speaker
So there you Orson Welles on Frank Capra. Fucking amazing. um Love that. Yeah.
00:15:24
Speaker
Doesn't Orson, like, perform on, like, a Dean Martin sketch show with Jimmy Stewart later Oh, he performs on the Dean Martin show frequently. I'm not sure about Jimmy Stewart. I can i can look that up. but um I have a feeling both of them were in, the like, the Dean Martin roasts or something. That feels like they were in the same sphere, yeah yeah. Well, at the Six Academy Awards on March 16th, Cavalcade and its director Frank Lloyd and Charles Lawton ah And Catherine Hepburn, Wynn, host Will of Rogers announces, come and get it, Frank. And Frank Capra gets up.
00:15:59
Speaker
How'd you like that? Will Rogers telling you, come and get it, Frank. what ah God, what that that has the same kind of energy, but less offensive than the Sean Penn, who the fuck gave this guy his green card, alexand Alejandro Iñárritu, when Birdman won for Best Picture.
00:16:18
Speaker
oh Yeah, that's some... I watched that with a Mexican friend of mine, and he was fucking livid. Like, he was so pissed off. And I was like, dude, I'm pissed off with you. That fucking sucks.
Podcast Style and Personal Stories
00:16:32
Speaker
Sean Penn is an asshole and a piece of shit.
00:16:34
Speaker
And Inarichi's like, yeah, it was just an inside joke. And I'm like, that's that's not an and that's not the kind of inside joke you tell in public. Yeah, yeah, yeah, dude. Yeah, dude. um On April 19th, Shirley Temple appears in her first feature-length film, Stand Up and Cheer.
00:16:49
Speaker
And hey, June 9th, the first appearance of Donald Duck in the cartoon The Wise Little Hen. Fuck yeah, Donald Duck. I fucking love Donald Duck. One of the all-time great cartoon characters.
00:17:02
Speaker
i Okay, hope I got a question you. He is my boy. Yes. Yes. Tell me your question. at here have I have a feeling that I know the answer already, but I need to ask you, like, just live in in front of everyone on the mic. Oh, God.
00:17:18
Speaker
Donald Duck or Daffy Duck? Oh, Donald Duck, all the way. Daffy Duck suffers, unfortunately, from ah character degradation over the course of his history.
00:17:32
Speaker
He started off as something truly Daffy and, you know, bouncing all around, woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo. And then he just became kind of an asshole. um And I don't mind the kind of an asshole, but...
00:17:48
Speaker
He's not like an independent character. He needs somebody to bounce off of in order to make him like sing. Like duck amok, even. You have to have him bounce off the author. It's truly amazing.
00:18:00
Speaker
i'm i Oh, that's an amazing piece of work, for sure. It's fucking perfect. I have nothing against Daffy Duck, but given a choice between the two of them, I will choose my good, good PTSD boy who has vocal issues any goddamn day of the week.
00:18:15
Speaker
as As soon as I conceived the question and started to ask it, I remembered all those episodes of Duck Takes where you refer to Donald as your sweet, sweet PTSD boy. And I was like, oh, I already know how she's going to answer this question. I don't need to ask it. But now that I've started, I can't stop.
00:18:29
Speaker
It's still like four tattoos down the line, but I am getting a tattoo of Donald Duck holding a chainsaw. Still got to figure out where I'm putting that one. but i She says looking at her body for unmarked spaces. um i The first tattoo I saw that made me want to get a tattoo was a tattoo of Donald Duck that some guy had on his shoulder. Nice. Where he like had his arms crossed and like a sour look on his face. And I was like, I want to put cartoon characters all over my body.
00:18:58
Speaker
um As it stands right now, I right now have... us yes zero cartoon characters on my body. The only thing I have is a blue bird on my shoulder, not because of song of the South, but because my grandfather had a blue bird tattoo and I got that memory of him.
00:19:12
Speaker
But yeah, I wouldn't have even made the, the, the song of the South connection. hey yeah I would have said, Hey, it's, they might be giants. It's a blue canary in the out of the light switch. Yay.
00:19:23
Speaker
Except it's, it's, it's a, it's a Mr. Bluebird on my shoulder. Well, then war behind us you're kind of fucking boned. Aren't you? um hey because i know what it's for i know what it's about i've got star wars and ghostbusters tattooed on me and there's nothing problematic about those fan bases nope nothing at all especially considering how those fan bases feel about your two favorite entries in those franchises oh oh god it's so stupid but it's so fucking stupid but
00:19:55
Speaker
Real quick, I'm going to piss off everybody real quick. Let's do an official. go I'm going to give you Hope's official Ghostbusters ranking. You ready? Oh, nice. Number one, with a bullet.
00:20:05
Speaker
You really can't beat it. It's an undeniable film. It's a magic trick of a movie. Ghostbusters 1984. It's perfect. it's It is. You just can't beat at it. It's perfect. um Number two, with a bullet.
00:20:18
Speaker
1997's Men in Black starring Tommy Lee Jones and Will Smith. It's the same fucking goddamned energy of a movie. Amazing, amazing fucking practical effects, a fucking crazy star-studded cast, wild and bullshit, oblivious New Yorkers. It's perfect. And then number three with the bullet Ghostbusters 2016.
00:20:41
Speaker
Um, because I, as it turns out, wanted to be Kate McKinnon. Uh, so yeah, I walked out of that. You had known that at the time. I literally walked out of that movie and said, I want to be Holtzman and still didn't figure it out for another five years. So you, you had to get there in your own, at your own pace and get there in your own time.
00:21:02
Speaker
Real fast fucking learner me. Um, Christ alive.
00:21:10
Speaker
It's really nice having like my full psychological profile develop via podcasts over the past four and a half years. That's very true, actually. Yeah.
00:21:22
Speaker
If you go back and listen to my first appearance on Disenfranchised and then keep listening, it's like, oh, oh, I know what this bitch is about. Okay. I see all of these. These are all red flags that I'm like marking like mine. re It's amazing.
00:21:36
Speaker
I remember you telling me shortly before your second appearance on Disenfranchised that we were like the first people to like publicly call you.
00:21:47
Speaker
hope like odd and like any kind of, and you heard yourself like referred to as hope and you didn't get it at first. And you're like, yeah shit, they're talking about me. That's awesome.
00:22:01
Speaker
ah Yeah, social transitioning is weird, to say the least. I cannot even imagine what that is like. Again, as a as a weirdo cishet male who's just ah try and trying desperately to be as good an ally as he possibly can be, like and no i cant I can't even fathom what that is. I appreciate everything you've've you've done and attempted for me and all of that.
00:22:26
Speaker
It's just... Well, I fucking love you, girl. You are... man You're one of my best friends. I fucking love you to death. You're the best. text every goddamn day. Listeners slash students, if we can crossfade the kayfabe for a moment.
00:22:40
Speaker
um Steven is the most notorious goddamned multi-texter I have ever met in my goddamned life. Every person that I text on a regular basis gets a dedicated text tone because i'm a psychopath.
00:22:54
Speaker
ah You are. In that regard, you are. So like when Bex texts me, it's this random snippet from a Brian David Gilbert short. Or when Jen texts me, it's Ray Parker Jr. Bustin' makes me feel good.
00:23:07
Speaker
Because why wouldn't it? Yeah, which but when Steven texts me, it's, nah, the French... Champagne is often noted for its excellence. And Stephen will text me seven times in a goddamn row, usually while I'm at work with a single earbud in trying to figure out how to achieve a 45 fucking degree angle on a consistent goddamn press break.
00:23:30
Speaker
And I'll just hear in my earbud as I'm trying to listen to a different podcast, the volume will drop on that podcast and it'll just go, ah, the French, ah, French champagne, ah, the French champagne is often noticed, ah, the French champagne.
00:23:47
Speaker
it It sounds like Orson is having a stroke. I know on days when we are recording, and like like we had planned to last week, i just... Oh, last week must have been miserable for you. I'm so sorry. The fucking telltale heart in the floorboards, man.
00:24:04
Speaker
It was fucking deranged. I'm so sorry. ah Oh boy. Here's the thing. I am one of those people who, yes, I could text everything in one like block of text, but i will break it up for the, like, for the consistency, but also for like the pacing of the conversation, because I'm a weirdo who considers the pacing of a text conversation.
Shakespeare and Orson Welles' Adaptations
00:24:30
Speaker
Like who the fuck does that? Me. That's who I do that. Like, yeah. I have friends who ah text, do the opposite and just text one giant goddamn thing, but it's all separated by ellipses.
00:24:44
Speaker
And it's like, are you mad at me? I can't tell. So I understand that I appreciate later with later on when I'm reading the text messages, it is appreciated when I am say driving home from getting engaged and I get 15 messages in the space of 45 seconds that are all just gift reactions.
00:25:06
Speaker
i Well, in fairness, you had just fucking told me you'd gotten engaged. What the fuck else do you expect from me? tell you that I got engaged and then I get in a car and drive home for an hour so I can't respond. So that's on me. How fucking dare you? That is 100% on How dare
00:25:24
Speaker
just just let me Just let me feel my joy, Hope. let me Let me share your joy with you via GIFs. Animated GIFs in a text conversation. Because that is about half of my communication is animated GIFs.
00:25:37
Speaker
I pride myself in trying to find the perfect GIF for every conversation. I respect it. um Good Christ alive. So Jane Goodall was born in 1934.
00:25:49
Speaker
I put down the list of shit that happened in that year anyway. Yeah, it's fine. Whatever. All right. Fucking Shakespeare. Everybody's here. Who cares? All right. All right.
00:25:59
Speaker
So after the rejection of both Marching Song and Bright Lucifer, 17-year-old Orson Welles suffered was offered two potential paths forward. This motherfucker is still only seven goddamned teen. What the fuck?
00:26:14
Speaker
Fuck. Right? Insane. Insane. 9, 10? fucking episode is this, Steven? 9. We're on episode 9. Next week we hit double digits, Hope. It is exciting.
00:26:28
Speaker
Next week, we're going to talk about The Hearts of Age. Next week, we might, I hope, seriously have our first guest. And next week, we're going to talk about his first film. And honestly, ah bulk of that conversation, because that is not a long film, it's about eight minutes, eight eight and a half minutes, is going to be about My Bachelor Party, a thing that we have mentioned on our very first episode. We're going circle back around to it because that is the first time our potential guests and i first experienced it. And if, if he doesn't guest on that episode, he will guest on something else because he is, he will at least guest when we get to it in 20 years, the other side of the wind, because that is his fate, one of his favorite movies of all time.
00:27:10
Speaker
That's valid. That's exciting. All right, good. Which is another thing we experienced for the first time at, my bachelor party but uh we'll get we'll get but hopefully we can discuss that in a little bit more detail next week as it stands yes orson well is only 17 um but he's offered two potential paths forward one from each of his surrogate fathers the first from dr maurice bernstein who is anxious to keep orson away from acting on the stage at any costs ah proposes that the boy follow in his mother's footsteps and join the Chautauqua circuit. That's a teaching circuit that kind of would tour the country.
00:27:49
Speaker
um They would have different, it started in Chautauqua, New York, and then would kind of just travel around. ah But it would, is this kind of learning experience where people would go to teach, sing, they would ah recite poetry, perform, and ah offer commentary kind of in between those things.
00:28:08
Speaker
ah But it's like, go, go into your mother's foot footsteps, play music, recite poetry, offer commentaries in between. And Orson felt very strongly about the poetry and the commentary.
00:28:21
Speaker
um Music, while something that he always retained was always something that he was loath to perform ah because it reminded him so much of his mother. He really didn't engage much with it after graduating from Todd.
00:28:35
Speaker
um And it, it, Most commentators, in this in this case, Callow specifically, ah presumes it might have been too painful for him to to do something that closely related to his mother ah because that death is, I think, the single most influential event in the young boy's life.
00:28:55
Speaker
um Meanwhile, on the other hand, we've got Skipper Hill who says, hey, you know what? Maybe we should write a book. let's take all the, the, the methods that we learned that we used at Todd for, for teaching and performing Shakespeare.
00:29:13
Speaker
And let's write a book to kind of put those into like the public consciousness. um That works so well with John Brown.
00:29:28
Speaker
In fairness, John Brown is not Shakespeare. Are we sure about that? Are we sure about that? have we ever seen Have we ever seen John Brown and William Shakespeare in the same room together?
00:29:40
Speaker
ye ah You know what? Fair point. i John Brown can't be Shakespeare. John Brown wears glasses, sir.
00:29:55
Speaker
John Brown has a beard. Shakespeare barely has a beard. He puts it on when he transforms.
00:30:04
Speaker
That's ridiculous. John Brown running into a phone booth.
00:30:12
Speaker
ah Hill's motives, according to Callow, were twofold. One, to keep Worson occupied, which apparently was a full-time job for these two men. And two, ah putting to use the tiber... And he's dead!
00:30:28
Speaker
and Here's the thing. It's not a full-time job for us. This podcast comes out twice a week and we we we we dedicate a night every couple of weeks to trying to to put it together. and we We have to play it up. We are full-time TAs. this is our this is i get paid to do this.
00:30:44
Speaker
Damn it. oh you Damn, worth my paycheck. I don't get paid for shit. Let me let me let talk to the- argue you Up to this point, I've done more work than you. You certainly fucking have. i do not. My God, I am so sorry.
00:30:57
Speaker
the ah the ah The imposter syndrome is- Strong. Hope, I will say, looking at the schedule, we will be into radio territory before the end of the year.
00:31:12
Speaker
Oh, yearn for the radio period. Certainly getting to the radio period. I'm going to talk up the radio period. So that way I have nothing to do but fail.
00:31:23
Speaker
There's no way to go but down for me on this one. Like, I'm just going to hype it the fuck up. I'm going to do my research. I'm going to listen to this shit because I have been listening to this shit for fucking years. So, I mean, you don't have to go down. You could, it could just be a lateral move.
00:31:41
Speaker
Just straight across. Just straight across? Just keep skirting along? Just straight across. Yeah, just do that. What do we think of someone who only does the bare minimum? We applaud them.
00:31:55
Speaker
We applaud them and say you are entitled to ah housing and ah food and education and transport the same as anybody else that does. Because those are, you know, basic fucking human rights. Human rights. Hey, what's that on my bookshelf? Oh, oh, oh. It's my 30 year old copy of the War of the Worlds.
00:32:15
Speaker
Whoops. I have not read that book since college. Oh, it is a slim volume. i am. It is not hard to read. I, that I remember. i I, am considering, there are a few books that I am considering reading for the purposes of this podcast. That is one of them.
00:32:33
Speaker
Another one that I'm considering rereading when we get to it here in like two and a half years, uh, the magnificent Ambersons by Booth Tarkington, which I did read earlier. because for two reasons I read it one because Booth Tarkington like me is a native of Indianapolis Indiana and two because Orson Welles made a movie out of it that's well there you go hmm what are you gonna do what are you gonna do what are you gonna do what are you gonna do Um, and, uh, the second was, uh, second motive first keep Orson occupied second, uh, find a use for the Todd press, uh, which was a printing press at Todd, the Todd school for boys that had been basically unused since, um, Hills, uh, like basketball primer that we talked about like four episodes ago.
00:33:22
Speaker
um like he wrote a about a book about basketball. ah If you recall, yeah like do recall the two things that press was used for basketball and Shakespeare, right?
00:33:34
Speaker
that The literally the whole of human interest right there. I am going to type, hang on. There's something there. Basketball Shakespeare has somebody done.
00:33:48
Speaker
oh oh 400 years later, Shakespeare's voice still echoes in sports. This is AP News article from 2016. Oh, nope. I'm getting ai images of William Shakespeare. Fuck that.
00:34:01
Speaker
Holding a basketball. That sucks. The internet has become hell. Closing that window. Speaking of which, remind me to cover the the Orson News at the end of this episode.
00:34:13
Speaker
Oh God. Okay. I sent you this and we, we, I said, we're going to cover this next episode and no yeah right four weeks ago and we haven't covered yet. Yep. So we're going to do So for Wells, this project promised the possibility for fame and fortune parenthetical, or at the very least an end to his dependency on Bernstein and an opportunity to leave the demands of home.
00:34:39
Speaker
um just something he kind of always like chicago was always a little too small for orson he kind of always wanted to get out of there so that makes a lot sense it's that that's i've i've been to chicago precisely once and it it seemed very big to me mostly because it's not one of my cities so yeah i mean it come back i will show you a good time and I understand. um i want I want to take you out for the the full Chicago dining experience. I want to take you to get an Italian beef. I want to take you to get a Chicago hot dog. And I want to take you to get two Chicago pizzas, a deep dish, and a teppin style. We will be enacting the Wells University student exchange program at a certain point. 100%. We will get to that most certainly.
00:35:25
Speaker
ah But I love that. It's like, how will I seek my fame and fortune? I'll adapt Shakespeare. Yeah. Okay. All right. Yes. I mean, it worked for 10 things I hate about you.
00:35:36
Speaker
Um, so there you Um, Hill got the Sisyphusian ball rolling for Orson. Once again, writing a blanket introduction for the proposed primer entitled everybody's Shakespeare and editing the bar's text while Orson would supply sketches, detailing costumes, makeup, and the stagecraft suggestions. Okay.
00:35:58
Speaker
Which brings us to, yeah, no, sorry, go ahead. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Please, I had nothing, continue. Which brings us to March 1933. So in the spirit of wanting to get away from it all, Wells packs up his copy of the complete works of Shakespeare, his pen, his paper, his ink, and quote, a trunk full of Elizabethan dramas and sets itself on the USS Exermont for Morocco.
00:36:24
Speaker
ah The solitude and isolation specifically from his good friend and mentor, Hill, who had been up to this point his perennial cheerleader, seemed to spark Orson's self-doubt.
00:36:36
Speaker
ah He writes to Hill that working on his first volume, ah the the the portion on Julius Caesar, which will be the third portion that we cover today, ah The play he staged at Todd made him feel, quote, much nearer to Caesar than ever I dreamed I could.
00:36:50
Speaker
Just near enough to know how far I am. And Skipper, I have always known Caesar pretty well. And others, like Hamlet even, are terribly foreign. What do I know about Hamlet?
00:37:02
Speaker
What do I know about Shakespeare? i feel an awful bluff. I cannot hear you all of a sudden. That's because I was chugging water and didn't want to record all of the swallowing noises.
00:37:16
Speaker
See, I just let those fly. and just let those fly. Good. All right. I apologize, Tucker. um Good. You might want to, you might want to timestamp that in case he doesn't want out. Yep.
00:37:29
Speaker
I'd say a minute. Six. Four. ah Sorry, Tucker. Anyway, I had a funny joke and I lost the funny joke.
00:37:41
Speaker
Oh, I was talking about ah how, yeah, even Orson Welles at 17 years old felt imposter syndrome. Yeah. Even Orson Welles felt imposter syndrome, kids, at the age of 17 and then never again. Never again. Never again.
00:38:00
Speaker
I mean, to to paraphrase something that he said quite often, like I was told ah I was a genius so often that it wasn't until ah so late in life that I realized that maybe I wasn't like his entire life. He was told me brilliant.
00:38:15
Speaker
And like he gets to be like in his he gets to middle age and then realizes, wait, what if I'm not like talk about a fucking identity crisis? Holy shit. Oh, man.
00:38:26
Speaker
Yeah. ah Yeah. and if He can't just point back at his own history of bullshit and be like, wait a minute.
00:38:35
Speaker
Oh boy. Orson. you know In a later letter to Hill, he, he also laments the mere presence of Shakespeare's script worries me. What right have i what a nerve I have.
00:38:47
Speaker
Um, Like just again, the imposter syndrome just sick at this point. Like, and again, it, it, and honestly, to some degree, it's kind of the same thing that we're experiencing doing this project. Like who the fuck are we to talk about Orson Welles? Like one of the greatest, like, right.
00:39:07
Speaker
like just one of the all time great like filmmakers, rock on tours, like theatrical presences. Like this guy is such a ah constant through the better, better part of the 20th century.
00:39:19
Speaker
And like, what the fuck right do we have? You and I, there are so many other people, maybe far better qualified to do this. And yet we're the ones who are actually doing it for, for good or ill, for better or worse. We're the ones setting out to do it.
00:39:33
Speaker
So there you go. For better and definitely for worse. ah What nerve I have. What nerve how nerve I have.
00:39:44
Speaker
Well, Orson, if you just lived another 30 odd years, you would have seen Gnomeo and Juliet and been like,
Creative Adaptations and Future Plans
00:39:51
Speaker
you know what? I'm doing pretty okay for myself. Right.
00:39:55
Speaker
Yeah, man, even if he only lived like another like 12 years, he would have seen Romeo plus Juliet and been like, oh, what if they were all just kind of actively eye fucking each other?
00:40:07
Speaker
OK, I mean, like to be clear, and we'll talk a little bit more about Romeo and Juliet in the lead up to next episode. oh boy When we like in the in the in the like background for next episode, like Romeo is a fuck boy.
00:40:23
Speaker
yeah i ro me that's yeah Romeo is absolutely – my partner and I were actually having this conversation earlier today. that the the The Romeo is a fuckboy conversation, which is a fertile ground. Let's be clear.
00:40:37
Speaker
Fertile ground for conversation. Christ alive. We'll get into it. Yeah, we will get into it ah most certainly. um But like, that's kind of the thing that I love about Shakespeare in general. It's like endlessly adaptable.
00:40:52
Speaker
So like, yeah, dude, do what you fucking want with it. He is dead for 400 years. You're free to go. It's all in the public domain. Do the fuck whatever you want.
00:41:02
Speaker
Like it's, it's, Like there's a great comic book called Killing Shakespeare, which is about like a bunch of Shakespeare's characters all teaming up to murder the author. It's a it's literally a comic book about the death of the author.
00:41:16
Speaker
That fucking owns. Isn't that amazing? That's so fucking cool. Despite the fact that they all occur, like all those plays occur within different timeframes and in different parts of the world – What the who the fuck cares? Like, just put them all together. Why not?
00:41:31
Speaker
ah They're all in the public domain. So you got like Falstaff and Romeo and Othello and ah like ah teaming up against like Richard III and Lady Macbeth. Like fucking A. Why the fuck not?
00:41:45
Speaker
I'm sure Shylock is there being all, you know, like anti-Semitic. There is a there is a plot. um Just real quick side tangent. No, do it. um they ah they A couple of months ago, they released a teaser trailer for the new Predator movie, Predator Badlands.
00:42:03
Speaker
And I had several angry rants about how I just wanted a goddamn, just put the Predator in a goddamn land where he can fight like a goddamn samurai. Unbeknownst to to me, I was getting that as an animated movie, which I still have not yet seen.
00:42:17
Speaker
Killer of Killers. im How have I seen the new Predator movie and you have not? I want to watch it with Bex. And I finally got watched Bex to watch prey of week or two back. Cause we're doing movies, uh, based on works of literature. So I managed to sneak in predator and pray as, Oh no, this is the most dangerous game.
00:42:36
Speaker
Just like, but like, uh, that's a pretty sneaky says that's, that's a theme. That's going to come back a little later in this episode. Um,
00:42:48
Speaker
But I was watching the original trailer ah teaser trailer for it and I'm like, this is just bullshit. I don't want to know things about the Predator's home world. i don't know what the I don't want to know what the Predator is scared of. Give me fucking Predator fights a samurai. Give me the Predator in the Civil War. I don't give a shit.
00:43:03
Speaker
And then the new trailer comes out and I'm like, oh, wait a minute. They're incorporating lore from the Alien franchise. Oh, wait a minute. Dakota Fanning is playing a legless robot who is like buddy cop comedying with him across a ah ah desolate landscape.
00:43:19
Speaker
hundred percent 100%. Oh, wait a minute. There's a power loader? And i'm like, oh, fuck. And I, like, Bex was present for it. You'll have to ask them. But they watched me in real time over the course of five to ten minutes after watching this trailer work my way through the five stages of grief.
00:43:36
Speaker
That sounds amazing. Like, wait a minute. Hang on. Wait. it's It's a buddy comedy? It's a road picture? What the fuck? with What fuck? wait, hang on. It's just, we've embraced Saturday morning cartoon.
00:43:49
Speaker
Oh my God. And then at the end, I'm just like, you know what? If they just want to put a bunch of action figures in a shoe box and then shake the shoe box, I'm all for that.
00:43:59
Speaker
That is a movie I can get behind. Hope I'm going to right now publicly on our other podcast called dibs. When high on cartoons gets the predator killer of killers.
00:44:11
Speaker
its It's going to be me. Oh, shit. ah We're talking about bringing it back. Good. I can't fucking wait. I need to hear Duck Take season three. It's going to be a good time.
00:44:25
Speaker
Now, my real question, and this is something you can you can no neglect to answer until we're off mic. Do you have plans for post-duct takes? We have been chatting it over extensively. and Okay.
00:44:38
Speaker
Yeah. Well, i I mean, if you listen to our last final, most recent episode about The Legend of Korra, you knew that my original plan was to do The Legend of Korra. But unbeknownst to me...
00:44:50
Speaker
The actress who plays Korra in The Legend of Korra has a podcast about Avatar, and now they're starting to cover Korra. And i'm like, you know, I'm not... You don't want to compete with that.
00:45:02
Speaker
I'm not going to compete against Korra in a show about Korra, especially now that all of the new information about the new series is spooling up. It's like, no, I'm not going to... No, no, no, can't do it. i um Can't do it.
00:45:15
Speaker
too big of a fish for us. So let's stick to Orson Wells. i was going to say, this has got to be our most tangential episode yet. It's going to be rough.
00:45:25
Speaker
while traveling from, Tangier, ah to Spain, uh, which there's not a lot of writing that Orson does to his guardians. Like most of what we know about Orson's travels is from letters that he wrote to Hill and Bernstein. And he did practically no writing in Tangier,
00:45:45
Speaker
In Spain, though, he did finish the section on Julius Caesar. Wells began to consider Merchant of Venice, which he would call, quote, one of the most imperishable collections of poetic writing ever produced.
00:46:00
Speaker
God, he said, I hate going it which I probably mistyped something there um because I was making these notes on my phone and my autocorrect fucks me at every turn. I am fascinated by what that actually You and me. but You know what? I have annotations. Give me a second. You do. Yo245 and 247. That's Young Orson, I believe.
00:46:28
Speaker
Yes, by Patrick McGilligan. Thanks, Patrick. gooing, gooing it up, who which makes less sense, quite frankly.
00:46:41
Speaker
um He says, besides being rip snorting romance, besides being a rip-snorting romance Moving and hair tingling from the first entrance to the last exunt.
00:46:54
Speaker
The Merchant of Venice is one of the most imperishable collections of poetic writing ever produced. God, I hate gooing it up. Maybe like embellishing it. He said with a shrug.
00:47:06
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. He probably had to do some hack and slash. shopping it through and screwing. He was very highly critical of the, the writeup he did of Merchant of Venice, except for his illustrations. He did like his illustrations for that saying, quote, the drawings are going to be hot.
00:47:25
Speaker
um there Yeah. My, my Merchant of Venice doodle is going to set the world on fire. Hell yeah.
00:47:34
Speaker
Oh, geez. He touched his or his merchant.
00:47:43
Speaker
Uh, Wells would depart Spain in June 33. And by the time he arrived in Chicago, he had completed his draft in the third play in everybody's Shakespeare 12th the night. Ah, not the first through the 11th night. No, no, no No. Only the 12th.
00:47:59
Speaker
On the 12th night of Shakespeare, my true love gave to me gender confusion.
00:48:06
Speaker
It's amazing that two of the three plays included in this volume both involve cross-dressing. i mean, considering what's okay, that was the squeakiest goddamn cork ever.
00:48:21
Speaker
my Am I pouring my third glass of whiskey for this recording? God damn. maybe God damn. ah Grip it and rip it, my friend. um
00:48:36
Speaker
Is that better? that This is why everybody tunes in. Good God. I don't know why. I mean, no one listens to us. That's that's kind of the point. I was going to say, I don't know why anyone does.
00:48:48
Speaker
here's Here's the secret. No one does. This will pay off in five years. It'll be fine. One hopes. the The long con. Yeah. ah Yeah.
00:48:59
Speaker
ah
00:49:02
Speaker
Summer 33, after some loose podcast self-depreciation back in Chicago by mid-June, Welles frustrated himself slaving over, quote, thousands of detailed sketches per Hill, many of which ended up crumpled up on the floor as Orson's perfectionism won out more than more He did, however, manage to save, quote, over 1,200, which he included in the margins of the text.
00:49:28
Speaker
um Which, so again, if you follow the link from our previous episode to the to the the text that we were able to find of Everybody Shakespeare, the the illustrations actually really are quite something. um um'm You know, they're not like...
00:49:45
Speaker
going to win like major artistic awards or whatever, but they are very evocative and really do help sell the various costumes, staging sets, et cetera, for makeup even in in many cases of, of what these plays could and should potentially be.
00:50:06
Speaker
It's yeah. the The man's dedication to, to stage craft and his imagination just are, are on full display. It's kind of an incredible. um
00:50:20
Speaker
I'm pretty sure this next sentence was intentional, but after much ado, the first volume of Everybody's Shakespeare would finally see print over Todd's winter break,
Challenges in Publishing and Personal Connections
00:50:28
Speaker
making them just able to claim a 1934 publication date. 100% intentional. I almost included in parentheses about not quite nothing, but I decided against it at the last minute. He's got jokes.
00:50:43
Speaker
he's gonna joke Literary jokes. While the book was well received in Chicago and available in many of the best bookstores in town, Wells was dismayed that it did not appear when he went to New York. Not a lot of bookstores carried it.
00:50:58
Speaker
It was, I should also mention something I did not include in the notes. It was also available by mail order. So people could write in and request copy of the book and order it by mail. ah similar to to what we now would call, let me just check my notes here, Amazon.com.
00:51:14
Speaker
yeah
00:51:20
Speaker
A company that's never done anything wrong. Thank you, Griffin Newman, for that joke. All hail. All hail. Literally, the reason we got into podcasting is blank check with Griffin and David. And legitimately, the reason we are friends.
00:51:35
Speaker
Which we have called out every other episode. Yeah, which we have called out every other episode. um it's It's really just the... WellesU is really just like the Stephen and Hope bonding power hour.
00:51:49
Speaker
with it real this loose This is our blank check. The difference between this show and blank check is no one listens to this show. And sometimes they bounce. Baby. Baby. yeah ah While he in while he in intention had been to publish. Oh, God.
00:52:08
Speaker
The. While the intention. Sorry. i Again, i did I mention Hope that I type all these notes on my phone? Yeah. And so as it ran out, man, you can't do this to me. I'm sorry, girl. I'm sorry. While the intention had been to publish all of Shakespeare's plays in the same format, it never came to be.
00:52:27
Speaker
In late 1939, everybody's Shakespeare was republished as the Mercury Shakespeare, culminating in Wells signing over all rights to Hill as a gesture of gratitude and way up to pay off some debt to his old friend and mentor.
00:52:43
Speaker
ah which let's be honest ah is going to become something of a theme on this podcast. Wells racking up debt. whoops um ah Frank Brady from a citizen in his, in his biography of well, citizen Wells.
00:52:58
Speaker
I didn't, oh I didn't mention my sources for this episode at the beginning of the episode are young orson by Patrick McGilligan. Um,
00:53:09
Speaker
Orson Welles, Volume 1, The Road to Xanadu by Simon Callow and Citizen Welles by Frank Brady are my sources for this one. um Frank Brady mentions that Orson also provided, quote, bold sketches, which he described as precise and professional, but with spontaneous with a spontaneous, relaxed look that made them especially attractive.
00:53:30
Speaker
For a volume of Macbeth of Everybody Shakespeare, um But I have not up to this point been able to find any evidence of that ever having been published.
00:53:42
Speaker
ah Brady is someone who actually met with and spoke with Hill. He actually saw ah the direct footage of Twelfth Night. um So like there's a lot there.
00:53:54
Speaker
that um that he was able to experience that Hill probably showed him that was not actually published. So my guess was Macbeth probably would have been a part of the next volume of Everybody Shakespeare, but ultimately that never happened, probably because Wells went to New York and found success in the theater.
00:54:13
Speaker
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Right. um The authorship of the introductory pages seems somewhat in dispute. um I know Brady attributes just the introduction and the Shakespeare biography, the quarto folio description and the play introductions to Hill.
00:54:33
Speaker
um Whereas one of the other biographers, and I didn't go back to fact check myself, so I literally have haven in brackets, insert correct biographer here. oops um attributes the Shakespeare biography, or at least the joke regarding the number at the beginning, which is, to my mind, very funny, ah to Wells.
00:54:50
Speaker
um And again, I was not able to find the attribution, so I have in brackets, insert attribution here. Clearly, i did great on this episode. Man, where this is this is an all-timer for us.
00:55:03
Speaker
Good Christ. Good God. This, i If we ever survive past this episode, it'll be a fucking miracle. it's We can do it. push The only way out is through, man. I guess. Yeah. um What other choice do we have at this point?
00:55:16
Speaker
yeah We're an hour fucking in and we're almost done with the introduction. so yeah we We dedicate ourselves to discussing the entire creative works of Orson Welles. We don't even get to Citizen Kane. Like, come on.
00:55:28
Speaker
Come on Come on, man. yeah on You know what? You know what? The best is yet to come, man. And in fact, we're probably, we might get to Citizen Kane sometime next year. if we lose Legitimately, we might get to Citizen Kane next year.
00:55:41
Speaker
Might. And then it's all downhill from there. False. Girl, fucking false. We've got some great shit to discuss.
00:55:53
Speaker
I kind of mean for Orson, it's all downhill from there, but. to Okay. point Point taken. Point taken. yeah i really I retract my statement. yeah but Yeah. It's going to be, it's, it's all fucking goddamn unlimited budgets. And, and here's some footage from King Kong and no studio notes. And you can put the camera ever, wherever you want. And,
00:56:18
Speaker
Yeah, no no, we're gonna paint Charlton Heston brown. ah and But it'll be in black and white, so no one will be able to tell. Yeah, we're... The section... Oh, no, no, please.
00:56:35
Speaker
Hope. Do it in tandem. The section of the Baconians, at least, was written by Hill as evidenced by an included anecdote about his undergrad studies at U of I. Which is to say University of Illinois.
00:56:50
Speaker
you go. Fair enough. I'm so glad I chose that sentence to read. ah Orson never attended college, so he didn't have any anecdotes about college. my Based on what I presume...
00:57:05
Speaker
between writing this section and reading through the first chunk of, uh, say the first 20 to 30 pages of everybody's Shakespeare.
00:57:17
Speaker
My, my presumption is that Hill wrote everything up to the portion on staging, which was written directly by Orson. Uh, that one is specifically credited to Orson. My guess is that Hill writes everything else.
00:57:32
Speaker
Hmm. That is conjecture on my part. One has no way to tell for sure. And, but, but yeah, that is, that is my guess. So hope let's move into after an hour of of just us shooting the shit.
00:57:50
Speaker
Let's talk about our personal histories with Shakespeare. What where do you where does where what is your first experience with Shakespeare? What is your general attitude and feeling toward the work of William Shakespeare?
00:58:04
Speaker
i think we'll talk about our individual histories with the specific plays as we get to those later on, which, again, we're not going spend a lot of time on some of this stuff. Yeah. But um particularly because we're going to cover at least one of these in greater detail in a few weeks.
00:58:20
Speaker
Yeah. And by a few weeks, I mean sometime next year.
00:58:26
Speaker
um But hope what is kind of what is your general feeling history with the work of William Shakespeare? I mean, i've it's I've got nothing against the man, obviously. Yeah.
00:58:38
Speaker
What a way to start. What an auspicious beginning, Hope. It's such a weird thing because, like, you know, it's you know i as I was a victim of the American public school system. So my first true introduction to Shakespeare outside of, like, references where dudes are holding skulls in movies and shit like Yes.
00:58:58
Speaker
or our money ah live of bus bunny holding a fur yeah Or Arnold Schwarzenegger's... ah Last Action Hero. Yes. yeah Hey, Claudius, big mistake.
00:59:11
Speaker
Outside of that my first true introduction to Shakespeare was probably in ninth grade English when we had to read Romeo and Juliet as a class.
00:59:23
Speaker
And... I'm just going to say this now. I fucking hate reading Shakespeare. It's a fucking play. It's not made to be read. It's made to be performed.
00:59:33
Speaker
And that's kind of what Orson is going for in these things, trying to make them more accessible so you can visualize the stagecraft a lot better than just reading a rote script with bare bones stage directions and shit like that. It legitimately helps.
00:59:48
Speaker
Like when read in that regard, it really helps. It truly does. I've seen a number of like film to adaptations and stuff like that. long ass time ago, I saw the ah the Catherine Tate, David Tennant production of Much Ado About Nothing. And it was one of the funniest fucking things I've ever seen.
01:00:07
Speaker
um And more recently, anyway, if if you... Oh, God. I'm just talk about Bex for a quick second. ah Bex loves Shakespeare. I tried to get them fruitlessly onto this episode.
01:00:21
Speaker
i encourage you to try to get them on this episode. I feel like they could have contributed quite a bit to this discussion. If if we can get them on for a very specific thing where we can sit down and watch, I've gotten them to agree to to be on the...
01:00:37
Speaker
chimes at midnight episode at the very least. I was to say that's at least 10 years down the road. Exactly. Exactly. um But like the day after we got married, I kind of absentmindedly threw on Romeo plus Juliet and they, ba erman's romeo post julia and while sitting next to me, Bex just recited the sonnet of ah Romeo seeing Juliet for the first time.
Experiencing Shakespeare: Past and Present
01:01:03
Speaker
And I'm like,
01:01:04
Speaker
Oh my God. This is unintentionally the most romantic thing I've ever experienced in They know the way to a girl's heart. What can they say? Wowsers and spouses, do they? It fucking rules. um good good Good for them. Legitimately good for them.
01:01:19
Speaker
and but And honestly, Hope, if I may say... Good for you. oh Oh, please. I am aware how good for me it is. It is great. But but but mean in the past couple of weeks, we've actually dedicated ourselves to watching ah specifically ah bunch of action movies that Bex has never seen um and a bunch of teen comedies based on classic literature that I've never seen.
01:01:45
Speaker
um such as 10 Things I Hate About You, ah which was basedly based on... based Taming of the Shrew. Correct. A few weeks ago, we watched The Duff, which I believe was based on Pygmalion. Okay. ma Mae Whitman is a goddamned delight in that movie. I will love her. Holy shit, she's the best. Any day of the goddamned week. Mae Whitman, come on the podcast, please and thank you.
01:02:13
Speaker
Yeah, by all means. and so um But pertinent to this podcast, we watched Amanda Bynes 2006 American Romantic Comedy Teen Sports Film. That's too many words.
01:02:26
Speaker
Too many many superlatives. Good God. Called She's the Man, which was adapted from Twelfth Night, which I got to say, got to say.
01:02:39
Speaker
It's pretty fucking trans. It's pretty fucking trans. Twelfth Night is pretty fucking trans. Let's be really clear about it. Now, to that to that point, before we get any farther into it, and if if if you want to interrupt me to talk about your a connection to Shakespeare, um I tried to do more homework for this podcast. I tried.
01:03:03
Speaker
Stephen, I want you to know, I tried. I tried. I knew... In the back of my head, just through pop cultural osmosis, because I'm a lesbian on the internet, that a while back, in 2009, Shakespeare in the Park did a production of Twelfth Night, starring Anne Hathaway.
01:03:24
Speaker
i've seen I've seen photos. I've heard about it. Apparently, it was amazing. We go to look for it. Hey, let's watch that on streaming tonight. Great. What service is on? I don't know. Let's look it up.
01:03:37
Speaker
Google. Google. r slash Lost Media, oh no. Three years ago by Garrow Rose. no. Oh no. no Fully Lost, the Twelfth Night Recording, 2009. No!
01:03:51
Speaker
One of the most popular poses that artists reference, usually for throuples and love triangles, super dramatic, comes from the 2009 Shakespeare in the Park production of Twelfth Night, starring Anne Hathaway, Raoul Esparza, and Audra McDonald at the Delacorte Theater.
01:04:08
Speaker
I fucking love all three of those people. know, dog. Look up that photo. Here's the thing. The hottest fucking photos of all time. i believe Here's the thing. My friend and my very good friend, I was in his fucking wedding. My good friend Matt right and his wife Amanda saw that production when they were living in New York in 2009. They got a picture of themselves with Anne Hathaway and they did not...
01:04:37
Speaker
give her my phone number and i am still man um man man was like go why didn't you guys give her my phone number like fuck yeah i okay the things i would have done ah to and for you uh to have been to have had anne hathaway be given my phone number cannot be in word or deed enumerated Oh my God. I am looking at Anne Hathaway in that outfit with that haircut. And it's just like.
01:05:09
Speaker
And
01:05:15
Speaker
we're back.
01:05:18
Speaker
and we're back some Some technical difficulties there. Technical and difficulties. Technical difficulties.
01:05:29
Speaker
um So, Hope, you weren you were talking about the the low lost media that is the Anne Hathaway, Raul Esparza, Audra McDonald, Shakespeare in the Park production of Twelfth Night. We tried to do homework and watch that adaptation of Twelfth Night.
01:05:44
Speaker
Didn't happen because it doesn't exist. But we did watch Amanda Bynes in She's the Man, which also stars ah fucking Channing Tatum, which caught me off guard.
01:05:57
Speaker
Yeah, he's shirtless for like half of it. And they're all playing soccer. They're all playing soccer and it's great. and David Cross shows up. It's hysterical. Love that guy. Yeah.
01:06:08
Speaker
Yeah. Pretty solid movie. Um, Yeah. Yeah. Good shit. ah Real trans. Incredibly trans. Probably says something about me that as a lesbian, I am way more into Amanda Bynes when she is boy moding than when she is just regular Amanda Bynes. Interesting. See, I go the other way with that. That's fascinating. that's fascinating Butch.
01:06:33
Speaker
Butches, man. Butches. I don't know what tell you. You do love them butches. What can I say? I do. ah It's good. Please, again, see Anne Hathaway in that haircut, in that outfit.
01:06:46
Speaker
um But we should probably talk about your ah ah history with Shakespeare. Yeah, I like like you, my first real engagement with Shakespeare was in ninth grade English class where I read Romeo and Juliet. There you go. um I went to a ah private Christian high school in Indianapolis, Indiana, um which just for for despite many things was actually a college prep school.
01:07:14
Speaker
So I read across four years of and the look of the look of consternation on your face is understandable. um But I will tell you. A big part of the reason why I am the way I am is because that school actually taught me what critical thought was and how to do it.
01:07:32
Speaker
hu which is something for a Christian school legitimately. Yeah. To the, to the extent that when I was teaching in a Christian school in, in multiple Christian schools, I felt like the, the second most important thing that I could do was teach the kids how to, how to think critically about the thing they were reading, which is to say the Bible.
01:07:52
Speaker
So like, I, I, I get your confusion and I get your, your, your, that, that, that look on your face, but by the same token, like I, I owe a lot to that school. I really do.
01:08:04
Speaker
i would not be, for better or worse, I would not be who I am without that school. Well, then we certainly can't knock it. um But I read across four years of high school four Shakespeare plays. My freshman year, I read Romeo and Juliet. My sophomore year, i read Julius Caesar.
01:08:19
Speaker
ah Nothing my junior year because junior year is dedicated to American literature and Shakespeare. Check my notes here. Was born in England. um And so my senior year, we read two Shakespeare plays. We read Hamlet and we read um Taming of the Shrew.
01:08:36
Speaker
Oh, interesting interesting interesting. That was the Shakespeare that I read in high school. I still have portions of the Friends Romans Countrymen speech dedicated to memory, and I still have portions of the to be or not to be speech dedicated to memory because every year that I was in high school, my English class made me memorize one big chunk of something.
01:08:55
Speaker
And in my sophomore year, it was friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears. I come to bury Caesar not to praise him. The good that men do live after them. The good is often tarred with their bones. So let it be with Caesar.
01:09:07
Speaker
That is all I remember of that speech. But I did have at one point in my life, the whole damn thing memorized. ah To be or not to be that is the question. Tis no blur in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or, oh, fuck. I legitimately just forgot it in the moment.
01:09:27
Speaker
What a horrible time to admit that I'm an actor. Terrible, terrible, terrible. Well, it now is a good time for me to jump in. Now is my moment to shine. You need a rabble-arousing speech.
01:09:40
Speaker
In less than an hour, aircraft from here will join others from around the world. And you'll be launching a great aerial assault in history of mankind. How did I know that was exactly what the fuck you were getting? Getting ready to tee up.
01:09:53
Speaker
Hang on, hang Let me get my megaphone up. oh Oh my God. She has a fucking megaphone within arm's reach. course I have megaphone. Like she needs help being louder, friends. I go to a lot of protests. um Touche.
01:10:08
Speaker
It's got Bluetooth connectivity. Oh, there you go. Yeah, yeah. You know, fortunate son on a loop. it's You know, for kids. yeah For kids. Alice's Restaurant. ah So...
01:10:21
Speaker
So interesting. I like how your, we had the same kind of, uh, experience between like yeah our English lit was ninth and, uh, senior years, ninth grade and senior years.
01:10:33
Speaker
Um, I, to be fair, I can also had some, my, uh, also had some, my, my sophomore year as well. Okay. That's that's fair. Because we were studying world lit. And so when we were covering the Roman empire, we, we, we did Julius Caesar.
01:10:50
Speaker
That that's fair. That's fair. I just remember hating American lit in 11th grade. So it was all depressed teenagers. have also hope I should, I should mention, I would be loath if I did not mention at this point in the podcast that I have actually performed Shakespeare. Oh, interesting. Okay.
01:11:09
Speaker
Again, uh, as, previously mentioned, I am an actor. I will discuss that more a little bit at the end of the podcast. and Um, but But my I when I was in my early 20s, I performed in A Midsummer Night's Dream.
01:11:24
Speaker
I was Oberon, King of the Fairies. okay I might be convinced to post a couple pictures of me in my full makeup and costume to the social medias when this episode drops.
01:11:38
Speaker
um It is legitimate. So the makeup, the director and the makeup, ah the makeup and costumer were a couple. And he the makeup costume guy had been a former drag queen in in in a previous part of his life.
01:11:57
Speaker
And so he, the makeup design he did on me, I had, my face was completely done in like sparkly gold. I was bald at the time, so I had a skull cap of, like, horns atop my head and then a, like, gold leaf crown around that.
01:12:18
Speaker
um my I had, like, they they sprayed, like, gold glitter in my beard. I had, like, black... like lines across my cheeks to like accentuate my cheekbones.
01:12:30
Speaker
And then my eyebrows were completely done in gold leaf. Like I had to show up like an hour before call for everybody else whoa and to get my makeup done. i will will text you I will text you a picture of this makeup later. i will post it to the social media when this episode drops.
01:12:48
Speaker
Please. It was, it is the most intense makeup. And then the, the shirt that I wore was legitimately like a fucking Liza Minnelli blouse.
01:12:59
Speaker
It was pure. It was just sequins. Like it was sequins with like something very thin holding it all together. And then that's incredible.
01:13:09
Speaker
And then I have like gold stretch pants, like gold, sparkly gold stretch pants. And then I had a giant cape that I wore over that. And then under the cape, and they were only visible in one scene of the whole fucking play.
01:13:23
Speaker
I had these tiny little wings. These itty bitty, because all the fairies had wings and mine were the smallest wings they could possibly find because i played Oberon as the villain of the piece because in my thinking, he's the guy, he's manipulating everything behind the scenes.
01:13:41
Speaker
Of course. and And he gets away with it. He gets what he wants at the end. He's the villain who wins in the end. And I don't know that director initially agreed with my take on the character, but as I performed the the character, they, they got into it more.
01:13:54
Speaker
And so he was the villain, but the, the idea is that all of this was because he had very tiny wings. He was compensating for his very tiny wings was I think the joke that they were going for.
01:14:05
Speaker
That's fucking incredible. Holy, which was amazing. that i have no pictures of me with the wings, but I do have pictures of me in the costume. And so I will end the makeup and I will post those to to the the Wells U pod blue sky accounts because that is that' that's the one place we fucking post.
01:14:24
Speaker
What do you fucking want from me? I hate all other forms of social media. I hear you. So ah that was the first Shakespeare play I did. And then I did something called No Rehearsal Shakespeare.
01:14:35
Speaker
Where literally they would give you a scroll and it would have your lines on it. And the only thing other than your lines was like the last part of the line ahead of yours.
01:14:47
Speaker
Okay. so Like you would hear your cue and then you would just start reading basically off your scroll. And you didn't know who anyone else was until like you said the character name and they would step forward.
01:15:01
Speaker
like And it was it was ridiculously fun. I did Much Ado About Nothing in that style. Okay. In a park in Carmel, Indiana, which is a northern suburb of Indianapolis.
01:15:13
Speaker
um And I was both Benedict, who is the fucking male lead of that play. And then I was also Dogberry, who is the comedic relief of that play. And Dogberry was the role I wanted.
01:15:24
Speaker
I went out for Dogberry and they're like, would you do Benedict too? And I'm like, can I do Dogberry also? And they're like, yes. And I was like, yes. I will do Benedict and Dogberry. Because the two characters share no scenes together. And do I own Joss Whedon production of Much Ado About Nothing?
01:15:45
Speaker
Yes, I do. Do I own it and keep it solely because Nathan Fillion's Dogberry is fucking genius? Oh my God. Yes, I do. Nathan Fillion's Dogberry is amazing.
01:15:58
Speaker
But yeah, I did Benedict and Dogberry. And then ah within the past, I would say 10 years, I did a production of Henry the fourth the same company I did Midsommar.
01:16:10
Speaker
And I i was Falstaff, which is that that was a bucket I got to check off. So me in my late th thirty s got to play Falstaff, a character in his clearly his 70s.
01:16:23
Speaker
And did I did I have a fucking great time? Yes. Did I feel like I did it justice? Absolutely not. Would I do it again if you haven't had the chance? Absolutely. so fucking move One of the best characters I've ever played. Falstaff is, to my to my thinking, the greatest of all Shakespearean characters.
01:16:44
Speaker
Fuck yeah. All right. And the character we will discuss much later in this podcast. Oh, I'm fucking amped for it. I'm fucking amped for it. so You've never seen Chimes at Midnight, have you? I have had my physical fucking goddamn Criterion copy for two years.
01:17:00
Speaker
Been just sitting on it. Waiting. my God. Waiting. The immortal story.
01:17:08
Speaker
Okay. That's what the immortal story is for me. It's one of those that I own on Criterion, have for years, never watched it. Good. Waiting for the right opportunity. It's going to be this podcast. Yeah, exactly. so this is it's so I've been saying it's something deeply psychological about me where it's just like I need an excuse to talk to somebody about a thing.
01:17:29
Speaker
Better make a podcast about it. and so to To be honest, Hope, I could not be gladder that you did. Because honestly, i think I just been, i feel like I've just been waiting my whole life for someone to say, hey, let's just record the two of us talking about Orson Welles for five years, 10 years, 20 years, a million years.
01:17:50
Speaker
And I was just, I literally, as soon as you texted that to me, i believe my response was all caps, hell fucking yes. Because legitimately I had been waiting all my life for someone to ask me that question or or to tell me that thing. And as luck would have it, or in your case, maybe unluck would have it.
01:18:10
Speaker
ah You're the one that did it. Yep. go Go me. It's all it's all my fault. And you know what? I'm, I cannot be happier. Like I'm so happy. I love this podcast. I love this. glad we're here.
01:18:25
Speaker
um I'm glad we're here, at mess together Legitimately saying, absolutely saying. ah So that's kind of my Shakespeare history. um ah Kind of the Shakespeare that I've engaged with There's a lot of Shakespeare I've not engaged with in preparation for this episode. I did engage with a production or a film of each of these plays.
01:18:45
Speaker
And for two of them was the first time I'd ever seen them. So, okay. Yeah. um I'm going to skip a lot of the kind of introductory stuff. ah Legitimately though, I would recommend reading and and we've got it. I'll put it in the show notes for this episode. It was in the show notes for last episode is your homework.
01:19:04
Speaker
um Would highly recommend reading the supplementary materials for this. um because it it is, i would argue, endlessly fascinating to kind of get the background of Shakespeare as it existed in 1934. I do, however, want to get into the plays themselves, and we've been doing this for, at this point, over an hour, and so we might as well jump into the actual plays themselves.
01:19:30
Speaker
Might as well. Three plays are covered in the Mercury. The Mercury Shakespeare is the edition we have. I will say, and this is something we did not mention earlier, the Mercury Shakespeare came with a series of phonograph records that included recordings of the Mercury Shakespeare Company performing these plays.
01:19:51
Speaker
Specifically, the edits of them made by Wells and Hill for this volume. ah So that people could literally listen to the performances of the plays as they were reading them.
01:20:03
Speaker
This was not meant, at least the Mercury Shakespeare, was not meant to be simply a text to be read and studied. but rather something to be engaged with actively.
01:20:14
Speaker
Amazing. Which I love because again, Shakespeare lacks a lot of its power when it's read, as you mentioned, it needs, it needs to be performed. You need to see it. It's a vibrant living thing, like a play.
01:20:30
Speaker
You can read a play and it's only going to do one thing for you, but to see the way the director and the actors interpret the thing is essential and vital to what that play is and what that play becomes.
01:20:44
Speaker
Very much so. no too And that's what the thing I love about live theater. It's why I continue to do live theater. No two performances or productions are ever the same. Even within a production, like no two shows are ever the same because someone may botch a line, someone may need to cover for someone.
01:21:02
Speaker
um Someone may, you know, deliver an inflection slightly differently, despite the the weeks of rehearsal that have gone into it. Live theater is a constantly evolving and changing thing. And I think that's the magic and the power of the thing.
01:21:15
Speaker
And so Shakespeare, Wells or Hill, one of the two, i perhaps Hill, comments that, yes, Shakespeare borrowed all of his plots, but the originality comes not from thee the plots themselves, but from the language used to convey them, which I think is really that That was something that always really bothered me as a kid about Shakespeare is that he stole his plots from either history or from other stories.
01:21:43
Speaker
but under because Because again, plot for me, plot is the most important part of any story, of any play, of any film. like If I'm watching and engaging with something, I'm engaging because of the plot.
01:21:57
Speaker
But to to paraphrase Solomon, there's really nothing new under the sun. There's nothing really new that we can add or convey. We're just kind of riffing on the same story tropes, the same beats, the same types of stories.
01:22:11
Speaker
And I think Shakespeare is evidence of that. His brilliance lies in the not in what he's saying, but how he's saying it. Yeah.
01:22:22
Speaker
And I think that's where the power of Shakespeare comes from. And he coins like so many words that we use today, like eyeball is a Shakespearean
Exploring 'The Merchant of Venice'
01:22:30
Speaker
invention. and Elbow. Elbow. Yeah. There's so many things that the man created just as like as a weird turn of phrase within a script that have become just part of the general American lexicon of language.
01:22:45
Speaker
who It's a,
01:22:49
Speaker
God, I'm really glad that I hooked up with like an academic to do this podcast. Jesus fucking Christ. I, uh... That Shakespeare, he done' he doesn't do the words done good.
01:23:03
Speaker
He sure talk pretty. Billy Shakespeare, he sure got pretty mouth. So, in She's the Man...
01:23:15
Speaker
ah
01:23:18
Speaker
Hold on, hold on. Before we get to She's the Man, let's talk about The Merchant of Venice, which is the first play listed in the Mercury Shakespeare. Hope you find a teen comedy based on that. Actually, that's worth a quick Google. Hang on.
01:23:35
Speaker
Hope, so question for you. What is your history with the play or the script or the concept of The Merchant of Venice? Little to none. okay have you Have you ever seen a production of The Merchant Venice? have not I saw like four minutes of the Al Pacino version in college.
01:23:52
Speaker
Okay. And that was it. Which I will say is the version I watched for the – I legitimately rented, went out of my way to rent the Al Pacino. I paid money to watch the Al Pacino version of The Merchant of Venice.
01:24:06
Speaker
Al Pacino playing Shylock, a Jew. Al Pacino – let me just check my notes here. An Italian. um Concerning. Here's the thing though.
01:24:17
Speaker
And I talked to a Jewish, a Jewish film critic um on disenfranchised years ago. Okay. um And ah she said something I will never forget. She said, the Jews and the Italians have a longstanding tradition that we're both okay with one of us playing the other.
01:24:39
Speaker
Jews are okay to play Italians. Italians are okay to play Jews. Um, it's incredible It's just kind of this this trade-off that we have. yeah And I will never forget that. it is it was such an incredible moment on on Disenfranchise. It was the Brightburn episode.
01:24:56
Speaker
for those of you wondering. It's so fucking good. i was like I was like, Keanu Reeves playing Ben Grimm, and she's like, no, Ben Grimm is Jewish. He needs to be played by a Jew. I'm like, fuck, you're right. No, you're right. Absolutely. And she was absolutely right to say so.
01:25:13
Speaker
But yeah, she was like, yeah, the Jews and the Italians, we just and we just kind of have this unspoken agreement. You can play us, we can play you, and it's okay. um so So it's okay that Al Pacino plays Shylock, I think.
01:25:24
Speaker
and ah According to that agreement, as told by Fair enough. Will all Jews agree? No. Does she speak for all Jews? Absolutely not. um but But there you have it.
01:25:36
Speaker
um Regarding the phonograph recording of The Merchant of Venice, and ah to my point, I have zero experience with The Merchant of Venice. I legitimately watched it for the first time this week in preparation for this podcast.
01:25:52
Speaker
i The Al Pacino version that I rented over the weekend. And I will say Pacino's fucking great in it. Pacino is fucking great in Also, like great cast in that thing. can i Can I just hope, can I review the cast with you in this thing? By all means.
01:26:07
Speaker
It's Al Pacino as Shylock. Okay. It's Joseph Fiennes. Not Rafe, but his baby brother Joseph as Bassanio. Lynn Collins as Portia. Jeremy Irons as Antonio. Okay.
01:26:20
Speaker
You've also got Charlie Cox. Daredevil himself as Lorenzo. ah Chris Marshall from Love Actually as gratan as Gratiano. ah You've got Mackenzie Crook from the British Office as Lancelot.
01:26:35
Speaker
ah Gregor Fisher as Solanio, Joseph Sessions as Solario. like it the The cast of this thing is fucking stacked as hell.
01:26:45
Speaker
I love it. It's so good. 10 of 10, no notes. Incredible. Love the cast. I will say the Mercury cast does include some notable names that we will refer to later. And I just kind of want to highlight them now so that you you know them later.
01:27:02
Speaker
The first is the great Norman Lloyd. And I cannot say enough. The man lived 2021. until twenty twenty one And the man worked with just a, an incredible, like a murderer's row of directors. Like he was just, he, he worked with Nancy Myers, Orson Wells, like Martin Scorsese, the the guy, um Peter Weir, like the man just had it in an unbelievable career that lasted um,
01:27:36
Speaker
the stage work he did in the thirties all the way up until his last film role was released in, His last film role was Trainwreck in 2015, the Judd Apatow film with Bill Hader and Amy Schumann.
01:27:51
Speaker
The man just had an unbelievable career. He's in The Holiday, ah directed by Nancy Meyers. He's in Dead Poets Society from Peter Weir. And we'll talk about him in a couple weeks when we get to Julius Caesar, for sure. But he is he is a member of the Mercury Players.
01:28:08
Speaker
In this production, he plays... Let me find his credit here. He plays Solanio.
01:28:17
Speaker
And that's it. I thought he had a... No, he does have a double. He plays Solanio and Lancelot. and Incredible. He's unbelievable. Love that dude ah so much. What a fucking performer is Norman Lloyd.
01:28:30
Speaker
um Then we've got Erskine Sanford, who would be who would perform in both – a lot of Wells films, actually. Citizen Kane, Magnificent Ambersons, The Lady from Shanghai.
01:28:41
Speaker
um just He was also in Academy Award-winning film by William Wyler, The Best Years of Our Lives. Just an unbelievable actor. He is in this production as ah old Gobo or Old Gobbo, perhaps. I'm not sure how to pronounce that.
01:28:57
Speaker
And also the Duke. ah just And he plays the the flustered publisher in Citizen Kane, the guy who's just all blustery the whole time.
01:29:07
Speaker
ah so fucking good. Love Erskine Sanford. Great actor. And then another another name that we need to mention is Joseph Holland, who we'll go on. We'll talk about him in a few weeks when we talk about the – and again, by a few weeks, I mean – next year when we talk about the the uh the mercury theater production of caesar he is he is julius caesar in that production fuck yeah um and and And what a job he does in that.
01:29:38
Speaker
And then finally, we've got William Allen, a name that you might not recognize. He is probably best known as an actor for his role in ah Citizen Kane, where he he plays a character whose face you never see. He's the reporter.
01:29:54
Speaker
Oh, okay. That's trying to figure out what Rosebud means. Okay. He also plays a report an uncredited role as a reporter in The Lady from Shanghai and the role of second murderer in the Wells production of Macbeth in 48.
01:30:09
Speaker
ah But then he goes on to become like an incredible Hollywood producer. Like he produces all of the creature from the Black Lagoon movies for Universal, ah The Deadly Mantis, ah ah the first like B-horror movie I ever saw.
01:30:26
Speaker
Um, the man is just like kind of a fucking producing legend. He, he ends up producing up through 66, uh, passes away in 97, but like just an incredibly illustrious career as a writer, a producer, an actor.
01:30:43
Speaker
Like he kind of does a little bit of it all. He has a an uncredited writing role on both on creature that from the black lagoon. And then a story by credit for both revenge of the creature and the deadly mantis. Like,
01:30:55
Speaker
Just all hail William Allen fucking legend. Like better known now as a producer than he is as an actor, but got his start with the Mercury Theater and Orson Welles.
01:31:07
Speaker
So just some some notable names on that cast list. um i was at an audition literally last night um as of the date of this recording and i was talking to one of the other actors and he had just played malvolio in 12th night or a a musical edition of 12th night and he i asked him kind of what other shakespeare roles would you like to play and he said well i'd love to play shylock and i was like oof You're not really going to get much of a chance to play Shylock these days.
01:31:40
Speaker
Merchant of Venice, not really a play that would get performed a lot now because of the, and though just the ah um abject anti-Semitism of the show. Yeah.
01:31:53
Speaker
Yeah.
01:31:56
Speaker
kind of hard to ignore the anti-semitism to be fair and i will i'll just say this i will say this on its face in shakespeare's day anti-semitism was relatively rampant yeah kind of like how it is now gi me yeah yes the yeah i want to read what wells writes in the introduction to merchant about This piece.
01:32:27
Speaker
Okay. um Personally, my guess is that Shakespeare wrote the play for just what is usually made. A story of craftiness outwitted and true love triumphant.
01:32:37
Speaker
For his own amusement, however, I imagine him inserting the many veiled sneers or at least smiles at the holier than thou attitude of Christianity. Certainly.
01:32:49
Speaker
Excuse me. certainly the hathno notta je hands organs dimensions senses affections passions speech is one of the most moving pleas for racial tolerance racial tolerance ever written going to put a pin in that for a second okay it was the age of intense anti-semitic feeling it was an age of intense self-righteousness among the christian nation you um The American Indian – sorry, I should – sorry, my apologies. The Native American – I will edit Wells' language there – could be tortured and enslaved with the blessing of God if he was first converted.
01:33:26
Speaker
A Christian could do no wrong to a heathen unless it was to allow him to enjoy his obvious deprivation. To the average patron of the globe, it was essentially noble for a Christian to act as diabolical with diabolical cruelty to a Jew.
01:33:42
Speaker
For Antonio to spit on Shylock and spurn him too. To laugh at his losses, mockhead his gains, scorn his nation, thwart his business, cool his friends, heed his enemies. Just a Boy Scout doing his good turn daily.
01:33:57
Speaker
But Shylock must be merciful. and a high and ah And a million high school students a year must learn this speech and recite it without laughing. If you want to press the matter, Jessica attained salvation and, of course, wings and a harp through the simple process of gilding herself with her father's ducats and jewelry and presenting the stolen goods to her Christian boyfriend.
01:34:20
Speaker
And Bassanio, the sponging, wastrel, and fortunate hunter, is a little less than admirable when he and his pal gratania gra Graziano excuse me exult over the Jasons ahult over being the jasons and winning the golden
01:34:35
Speaker
um
01:34:39
Speaker
A lot to unpack there. But even by 1934 standards, can we legitimately call the prick us, do we not bleed, aka the half a Jew, half not a Jew hands, organs, etc. speech?
01:34:51
Speaker
Can we legitimately call that quote, one of the most moving pleas for racial tolerance ever written? Mm hmm.
01:35:02
Speaker
This is, of course, excluding the autobiography of Frederick Douglass. This is excluding the work of several abolitionists before leading up to and during the Civil War. and Not to mention John Brown himself.
01:35:17
Speaker
um it is It is poetically brilliant. I will not i will not fault at that. But one of the most... ah moving pleas for racial tolerance ever written.
01:35:32
Speaker
Even by 1934 standards, I have my doubts.
01:35:40
Speaker
Sorry, that just kind of ah rang a bell in my head. i'm I'm realizing...
01:35:48
Speaker
that specific speech I want to say was also deployed kind of perfectly in the 1942 film to be or not to be, uh, which I realized, yeah, which I'm realizing I saw as a little kid and made more out of of impression than I realized.
01:36:06
Speaker
Um, but yeah, it's, uh, Jesus fucking Christ. Um, it sucks that these themes keep coming back and remaining relevant.
01:36:19
Speaker
Right. a hundred percent agree. No, you're, you're absolutely spot on. And, and again, it's, it's the reason why something like this can't readily be performed often.
01:36:31
Speaker
There's this notion and, and Wells even speaks of it like ah earlier in the, in the stage directions where,
01:36:42
Speaker
sh obviously Shylock can be played in a more sympathetic manner, not however, as completely sympathetic as some might wish and still retain the drama of the court scene.
01:36:53
Speaker
There's this, this aspect that the Jewish character must still be shrewd and conniving. um And, and Shylock is for good or ill. And I will, I will, so I will editorialize here and say mostly for ill.
01:37:12
Speaker
is one of Shakespeare's prominent villains. know And it sucks. Yeah, it does. It does. It does. Well, coming up soon. It's so clearly covered by the, it is so clearly like couched in the antisemitism of the day.
01:37:31
Speaker
And we're never going to deal with racism on this podcast ever again. Nope. Nope. Never again. not going get more uncomfortable from here on out. Uh-oh. At no point will the subject of this podcast appear in in faces of different colors other than white.
01:37:48
Speaker
Oops.
01:37:53
Speaker
No, I... I did text you the other day to advise you there is... A short film of Orson as Shylock performing oh Merchant of Venice. like Of course. Yeah, yeah of course. he did got i am loathe to share you share with you the makeup of what he looked like in that performance. But I guarantee to tell you is as stereotypical as you think Oh, no.
01:38:23
Speaker
um I'm going to Google right now. I'm going to do Orson. And it should maybe come as no surprise to you whatsoever that um Wells played Shylock in the production, ah in the recording. Oh, no, Orson. Orson, you didn't. Orson.
01:38:38
Speaker
No, he did. He he really did. Orson, and click on image search. Oh, no. Yeah, if you you type in Orson Welles Shylock, you'll you'll get a... Literally what I got.
01:38:50
Speaker
yeah My internet's just being a slow asshole because I have nine tabs open. I will include it and indeed in the show notes. audacity Not in the show notes. I will include it in the in the the the social media post on Blue Sky for this episode. Oh, that's... Yep.
01:39:09
Speaker
Wow, that's... Correct. A choice is what that is. that's a whole lot of choice. Yeah. Now the production that I, that's a whole many choices.
01:39:22
Speaker
The production that I watched with Al Pacino did like have like kind of an opening preamble that really kind of gave a good context for the show, which is, or for the production, which is the fact that Jews in this area were not allowed to loan, to to own land. Yeah.
01:39:40
Speaker
So they got their money. They were able to make a living by usury by basically loaning money. um right And so that was how they were able to provide a living for themselves.
01:39:52
Speaker
Usury at the time, and I find this insanely fascinating, was was strictly forbidden by the Christian church. Of course. and In fact, there is there is legitimately, there is scripture against the borrowing and lending of money to fellow brethren.
01:40:10
Speaker
So Christians did not participate in usury whatsoever, which is why Antonio asking Shylock for a loan is such a fucking huge deal. And why Shylock is so quick to exact revenge in this. Like Shylock is supposed to be merciful, but Antonio doesn't need to be because he's a Christian. The prevailing kind of religious...
01:40:39
Speaker
way of the day. i i'm umm The word is escaping me, but you understand what I Have I had a few beverages? Yes, I have. um But that's kind of the prevailing ah you know religion of the day.
01:40:53
Speaker
And so and and i found that a really interesting piece of context that really kind of helped put everything into perspective for me as I was watching this this production and engaging with this piece of art that I had never seen before.
01:41:10
Speaker
I'm sorry, i just clicked on the link that you uploaded into the chat, and it was I was just treated to a full frame photo of Orson Welles as just looking at me.
01:41:21
Speaker
Like fucking... Shylock. Like fucking Torgo in the hands of fate. Jesus Christ. Oh my god. really does He really does look like Torgo. That is insane. It's unfortunate.
01:41:35
Speaker
and I hate you for putting that connection my face.
01:41:39
Speaker
I'm so terribly sorry. To be clear, I love you as a sister. You are one of my best friends. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. I keep layering it up. By the same token, you shared you shared that thought with me, and I hate you so much for it.
01:41:53
Speaker
I'm so sorry. But but in in as much love as I can muster, because you know I love you. So, yeah, like so so yeah like i this was This was a tough one to engage with. Did I really enjoy the production I watched? No.
01:42:10
Speaker
um my My friend Matt, who I mentioned earlier in the podcast, is the guy who saw Twelfth Night, also saw the Al Pacino Merchant of Venice when it was performed at Shakespeare in the Park as well. Okay, okay, all right. And and that's this is kind of the the film version of that, but with like a lot more names, I think, filling out kind of some of the minor roles.
01:42:33
Speaker
um But yeah, it was, it you know, it is, it's it's phenomenal. um But also really regrettable at the same time. Like there's a lot to love about it, but there's a lot, mainly the anti-Semitism of the thing that's really fucking unfortunate and hard to, engage like I'm thinking, like so many of other Shakespeare's other plays have been modernized in so many ways.
01:42:57
Speaker
And I kept trying to think of a way to modernize The Merchant of Venice and I don't think you can fucking do it.
01:43:05
Speaker
I don't know enough about the Merchant of Venice to properly comment on the modernization aspect of it, but I have a quick pitch. Tron lines.
01:43:18
Speaker
Go on. I have nothing else besides just Tron lines. That is the beginning and end of the entire thought process. i thought I thought you had more to unpack there. It ends with, what if Daft Punk was involved somehow? um And that's about as far as it got.
01:43:41
Speaker
Just do the text exactly as written within the timeframe as written. Just include a Daft Punk soundtrack. Okay. I think that's what you're getting at. Okay, good. as It's not problematic at all.
01:43:54
Speaker
Never. The Robots of Venice. There it is. We fixed it. All right, good. There. we solved racism forever.
01:44:03
Speaker
Hope, let's let's talk about maybe Obama a third time. God, how fucking dare you? um Oh, made her choke on her smoke.
01:44:15
Speaker
ah um Let's move on to Shakespeare's most trans play of all
Trans Themes in Shakespeare's Works
01:44:21
Speaker
time. Let's move on. yeah Yeah, let me reopen that tab on She's the Man.
01:44:26
Speaker
I, I, to be now and, and again, just to kind of catch, I didn't, I had no connection with 12th night before this. I knew the premise more or less. Uh, but I watched the Trevor nun 1996, Trevor nun film with, uh, engine stubs and Helena Bonham Carter and, uh, Nigel Hawthorne as Malvolio. Fucking perfect. Okay. That's fine.
01:44:51
Speaker
Yeah. It's so, he's so fucking good. Um, it was, it's on a canopy. If you have a library card and your library gives you access to canopy. Uh, so you can watch the whole fucking film there.
01:45:03
Speaker
Every time Helena Bonham Carter looked at Nigel Hawthorne and said, how now Malvolio, I fucking just fell out. It was the funniest shit I've ever seen. It was fucking amazing. I love it so much.
01:45:15
Speaker
Um, it's, it's really a wonderful play in which a woman and her brother, Basically have to the woman has to basically pretend to be her brother because the guy who owns the island she crash lands on after a shipwreck.
01:45:36
Speaker
um doesn't allow women into his court and so she meets a ah kindly um like sailor merchant captain somebody who helps her dress up like a man and uh in in the trevor nunn version she and her brother were part of the cross-dressing act and which you see kind of playing on the ship and like she would sing the high notes and he would sing the low notes and they both have these veils.
01:46:02
Speaker
And then at one point they'd take off the veils and they both have mustaches and he would peel off her mustache and reveal that she was a woman. And she'd start to peel off his mustache and then the shipwrecked.
01:46:13
Speaker
But it, it, it reminded, like I was thinking a lot about, cause in, Merchant of Venice, you also have a cross-dressing element. Like the the lady who plays Portia becomes a lawyer, like pretends to be a lawyer halfway through, and her maidservant becomes like her manservant.
01:46:33
Speaker
um And it reminded me of the fact that in Shakespeare's day, all the female roles were played by men. Yeah. men Particularly. So the, the notion that these young men are being asked to play women, it feels like the cross dressing element was a way for them to kind of like play a masculine type of role while still being the female character.
01:46:58
Speaker
Like the incredible it's kind of baked into the cake of the Shakespearean dramatic right identity, which I find insanely fascinating. But now these days when women are playing female roles in Shakespeare, it comes off as insanely trans.
01:47:14
Speaker
but But then in in in the day, again, you've got men playing female roles. That is in in and of itself pretty fucking trans too. Like – at some point, like art imitates life, imitates art.
01:47:31
Speaker
Uh, I mean, it's, it's, it's a turducken of gender identity, uh, to be, to be, uh, clear. You can probably speak to this a lot more authoritatively than I can.
01:47:42
Speaker
Well, I'm just pulling up cause I want to get the wording exactly right. And I'm trying to pull up the words of, uh, some of the great philosophers. Um, but yet truly, as I was saying, like, it's certainly, uh,
01:47:56
Speaker
raises a lot of interesting questions for me when I find myself more attracted to Amanda Bynes in a very short butch wig ah than I do as just regular Amanda Bynes. Right. You know, ah that's that's my own thing going on.
01:48:13
Speaker
But yeah, considering all of these roles were originally played by men pretending to be women pretending to be men, it it I think turducken becomes the right word complete feel...
01:48:26
Speaker
Yeah, no, I feel like you're really onto something with that with that phrase. doctor Yeah, it's it's unfortunate the word is turducken, but there it is. Or it's like ah like a, it's it's an Ouroboros kind of, like a snake eating its own tail kind of thing. Ouroboros is very, very good.
01:48:43
Speaker
ah If my god damned internet will fucking load, you absolute ass wagon. No, god damn it.
01:48:58
Speaker
Steven vamp for 20 seconds as I go on my phone. No, I, the, the, the gender identity aspect of a trauma yes joke is going to be worth it. God damn it.
01:49:10
Speaker
A hundred percent. It will be the, the, this feels like Shakespeare is the closest Shakespeare gets to transness. And again, I feel like it's because of the trope as evidenced by the play Shakespeare in love of women play or of men playing women.
01:49:27
Speaker
Um, and And so you get kind of... there's There's this trans that's kind of built into theater, Elizabethan theater of the day. And then as women start to play women's roles, that becomes lessened until you get to the production of Julius Caesar that I watched, was which was a production of... It it was part the first part of a trilogy of all women Shakespeare productions.
01:49:51
Speaker
So every fucking character is played by a woman. ah But we'll get to that here momentarily. That was... I'm really excited to hear about that. Of the three adaptations of Shakespeare plays that I watched for this episode, that was the best one by fucking artist. You're going to have to send me that link. Yeah, that sends incredible sound.
01:50:10
Speaker
um But the words of the philosophers, as I was trying to pull up earlier, ah girls will be boys and boys will be girls. It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world, except for Lola. Except for Lola. Except for Lola. That is, of course, the kinks.
01:50:24
Speaker
And their song Lola. What a great song too. Like introducing us to the, the notion of transness in the eighties when people just weren't fucking ready for it.
01:50:36
Speaker
God, you know what really sucks is I kind of like hid behind Yoda for most of my life. And it was only after my egg cracked, but I got, became obsessed with the original fucking song that,
01:50:50
Speaker
Whereas I liked the original song long before I knew Yoda was a thing. Oh no. I hit Yoda at an extremely early age. Yeah. And see, again again, as someone who came to weird out late and kind of had to kind of search my way through his back catalog,
01:51:06
Speaker
um And again, i will i will absolutely credit my taste in music such as it is to Kazaa my early years of college. Like I downloaded so much music illegally. I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations is that is is run out on that.
01:51:21
Speaker
Don't download this song. Speaking of Weird Al. Yeah. Sorry. But i i listen I listened to Lola by the Kinks back then.
01:51:32
Speaker
And between that and the comedian Susie Eddie Izzard, that was kind of my first exposure to transness. Oh, of course. Yeah. As a sheltered young teen. And I like Susie Eddie Izzard to this day is one of my favorite standup comedians.
01:51:49
Speaker
I fucking love that woman. Correct. She is so good. um And then, but but yeah, Lola is is just one of those all-time great songs where you're like, at the end of the day, does it matter that Lola is trans?
01:52:05
Speaker
No, because the author of the song fucking loves her. And that's the thing that matters. Like, that's the important part. And, you know, there's this moment in the Trevor Nunn production of Twelfth Night where Ben Kingsley's character, Feste, is singing a song.
01:52:22
Speaker
And the two of them start to like Orsino and um Viola, who is in her masculine identity, um like come this close to sharing a kiss.
01:52:35
Speaker
And it's one of those things like, does this man think he is gay because he is attracted to another man? Which, again, I feel like was... In some ways, relatively common. I feel like the stigma against homosexuality has it's kind of always existed. But in some in in in a lot of cultures and and in a lot of ways, it was mostly ignored or just kind of relegated to the side until relatively recently, where there's so much weaponized against homosexuality.
01:53:07
Speaker
queerness and homosexuality. and you And again, correct me if I'm wrong here, please. I'm honestly the wrong person to speak on this about, because I'm not so like familiar with like the the better way to word this sort of thing.
01:53:20
Speaker
But if you look at like Eurocentric culture, yes, it's mostly been like sidelined and and and ah tabooed, essentially. But I mean...
01:53:33
Speaker
if you look at most other cultures, it's, well, not most other cultures, but many other cultures. Like, there is sculptures of trans people from ah the the Greek and Roman times.
01:53:50
Speaker
Right. Gay people have always existed. 100%. Yeah. and they didn't just suddenly appear in the 80s with Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. So, like...
01:54:02
Speaker
ah I had to work a Dune reference in there. I was going to say, you just can't help yourself, can Sorry, I felt the whale running dry. um it It's...
01:54:15
Speaker
It sucks. I mean, it's born out of misogyny. I mean, even just in talking about Shakespeare and how only men can play these roles. It's, it's, it's it's all forms of just this bullshit control.
01:54:29
Speaker
You're only allowed to love this way. You're only allowed to express yourself this way. um Here's a crazy factoid. Uh, uh, if I'm getting this completely correct, gosh, I hope I am in Iraq.
01:54:44
Speaker
It's okay to be transgender, but you have to absolutely conform to that gender identity and you cannot be in a homosexual relationship.
01:54:54
Speaker
So like, exactly. It's all just insane forms of control. So like, right yeah, if, if we're not careful, I will start talking about the matrix in depth.
01:55:06
Speaker
What you talk about the matrix, man. I haven't talked about the matrix in depth for a little while. And literally which house he just announced a new project that's featuring all trans women. And I want to fucking talk about it, but I've got to talk about William fucking Shakespeare instead, man.
01:55:21
Speaker
um God damn it. Hope it's going to be okay. You know what? If we can get through Julius Caesar, i will give you five minutes to talk about about the Wachowskis.
01:55:32
Speaker
How's that? God. I really don't have too much to say about it besides the fact that I'm stupidly excited for it. And people are already opening up trans hate against it. So i'm like, God damn it.
01:55:43
Speaker
You're going to make me watch Cloud Atlas and defend Cloud Atlas, aren't you? God damn Hope I will say right now for the record on this podcast publicly. Okay.
01:55:55
Speaker
My partner, the woman I love who I'm dating right now. right. Talk it up some more. Her second favorite movie of all time is cloud. Atlas is cloud. Atlas.
01:56:07
Speaker
Great. ah And you know what? Cloud Atlas, as someone who's watched it at least five times oh boy in the last ah four years since I've been dating my partner,
01:56:20
Speaker
Fucking great movie. Great. I love it. Good. I will stand on that ledge with you and defend Cloud Atlas, hope. Man, I just started watching Bound and I'm excited to just plow through it all. own it on 4K. It's on the shelf.
01:56:36
Speaker
Got my Criterion back there. Yes.
01:56:40
Speaker
going to good. It's going to be good. I fucking love Criterion Can I tell you how? Oh, fucking Corky. Fucking Corky does it for me. Jesus Christ. I'm sorry. Continue, please. Sorry. Butches.
01:56:55
Speaker
Butches. We both got horny on main there for a second. Oh, God. ah Can I tell you the three Criterion 4Ks that I bought on this last Criterion sale for this month? Only if can tell you my newest 4K steelbook collection.
01:57:09
Speaker
I absolutely... You know what? You go first. I bought some Billy Wilder, some Like It Hot, a movie I have never seen, but speaking of trans... Fuck yeah.
01:57:21
Speaker
Fuck yeah. One of the great all-time lines. I'm a man. Nobody's perfect. Well, nobody's perfect. and ah black name one of the great all-time last lines
Film Collections and Personal Interests
01:57:33
Speaker
in cinema fucking got the whiz sydney lomax the whiz okay okay i got one of the greatest films of the 1977 william friedkin's follow-up to the exorcist nineteen seventy seven william friedkin's followup to the exorcist Sorcerer.
01:57:52
Speaker
ah hundred buckies right Hope, have you seen Sorcerer? have not seen Sorcerer. i know he want home Hope. Hope. Perfect movie.
01:58:04
Speaker
Okay. Perfect fucking movie. I believe you. Hope, we need you to see Sorcerer so that you and I can talk about Sorcerer. Yes, sir.
01:58:17
Speaker
Don't call me sir. i don't think I can handle that.
01:58:22
Speaker
um Well, speaking of movies that you and I have talked about, um my recent 4K Steelbook purchase, as I choke on nothing, I should take my NyQuil shortly, honestly. Yeah, i was going to say, we've got to talk about Julius Caesar and then we'll wrap this in puler it's puppy up
01:58:43
Speaker
And to be clear, we're going to talk about Julius Caesar next year. So I'm not going to talk a lot about Julius Caesar right now. Yeah. Yeah. I dip my toes into Julius Caesar. But, uh, um, ah, shit. No. What was I talking about? 4k steelbook. Right. Dark crystal.
01:59:01
Speaker
Dark crystal. ah See the episode that we recorded with Bex on Disenfranchised about the fucking Dark Crystal. Oh my god. You can see the strings holding the Dark Crystal aloft and it is perfect.
01:59:19
Speaker
You can see every twitch of every puppet. Oh.
01:59:25
Speaker
It is perfect. Skeksis, Hope. Skeksis. Skeksis. Oh, fuck. What a great movie. ah it's It's fucking perfect.
01:59:36
Speaker
i did I did send you the... Another Another world. I did send you the puppets that I saw at the Jim Henson exhibit in Peoria, Illinois when I went, right?
01:59:48
Speaker
You did. oh God. Yeah. I think I sent you Agra. Oh. and They have a section at the Museum of Moving Image ah for the Dark Crystal, and I'm just itching to get there.
02:00:01
Speaker
I need to get there with you. next e in real lie Because stuff that was at the Jim Henson exhibit in Peoria was stuff on loan from the Museum of the Moving Image.
02:00:12
Speaker
So I have to imagine their collection is even bigger. And I only shared with you a fraction of what I got, of what I saw from the Peoria exhibit. Oh, okay. Remind me, I will send you more if you so request it.
02:00:25
Speaker
Like I've got fucking stuff from Sesame Street, The Muppet Show, The Muppet Movies, ah Labyrinth. Fraggle fucking rock. Like, um, Jim Henson's storyteller. Like I got shit, man. Shit. All right.
02:00:38
Speaker
The, the commercial days, like Wilkins, fucking Wilkins and won't kids. Like I got, I got shit girl. Don't even get me started. to have to pull up photos from from when Bex and I went to D.C. and to the American History Museum for pop culture.
02:00:56
Speaker
Legit. i want some I'm kind of amazed that I managed to talk my partner into going to see a Muppets exhibit three hours away in Peoria, Illinois, because she is not a Muppets fan.
02:01:08
Speaker
She did not grow up with the Muppets. She has no exposure to the Muppets beyond her dating me, and a lifelong Muppets person. Here's a quick display from the Smithsonian.
02:01:19
Speaker
It's got Elmo and Joey, Mr. Rogers' sweater, and Howdy Doody. And, oh, what's that to get us back? ah Oh, hey, it's the costume of Xena, Warrior Princess.
02:01:32
Speaker
ah Whoops. But to get us back on track, ah if I can find it, because I know I saw it and I took a photo of it. Where the fuck is it? It's not the ruby red slippers. It's not R2-D2.
02:01:45
Speaker
C-3PO, I'm not singing and vamping to cover my tracks. It's Orson Welles' typewriter. Hell yeah. They had it at the Smithsonian. in That makes me want to go to the Smithsonian. Literally not to see all the other shit there, but to see Orson Welles' fucking typewriter.
02:02:03
Speaker
fuck yeah Fuck yeah. Orson Welles' typewriter. One notable name from the production of... um Oh, and Agent Kelly's FBI ID.
02:02:17
Speaker
Sorry.
02:02:20
Speaker
They also had the chunk of amber from Jurassic Park. It was a good day. It was a very good day. and Another name I want to mention who was on the Mercury recording of the Twelfth Night recording, he played Antonio, is ah George Colores, another member of the Mercury Theater whose name we will hear a lot.
02:02:40
Speaker
He played ah william that or Mr. Thatcher in Citizen Kane. He was Mark Antony in the Mercury production of...
02:02:51
Speaker
uh, Julius Caesar. and and one of those actors who would later in life go on to be in movies like, uh, Papillon, who would be in the long, good Friday.
02:03:01
Speaker
um heart, he was in an episode of heart to heart, which I find very funny. Um, but just kind of one of those like really great actors, uh, was, ah was again, an early member of the Mercury theater.
02:03:16
Speaker
which is fucking amazing. Like Wells managed to find like great talent who never really butted into full fledged talent, but would still, <unk>re we're still insanely talented individuals.
02:03:27
Speaker
And I find that just really amazing and really wonderful. Um, But yeah, George Caloris is kind of the big name. And again, you get other kind of big names introduced there. um Norman Lloyd is in there as well.
02:03:43
Speaker
Like you get a lot of the other Mercury players there also. But, you know, the addition of George Caloris cannot be understated. Caloris, a really great member, an important member, an essential member of the Mercury Theater and a name that we will talk about much more in the in the weeks and years to come.
02:04:05
Speaker
Many, many years to come. Julius Caesar. Something about March and Ides. something noting eye'd Something, something something, something March.
02:04:20
Speaker
Hang on. Is that part of the notes? Let me let me get that down real quick. Something, something Ides. Is that going to be the name of this episode? Maybe. Maybe.
02:04:31
Speaker
No, it won't be. Good. Okay. ah So I was actually listening to ah the Mercury Theater on the Air radio production of Julius Caesar.
02:04:42
Speaker
Yes. Before we were recording, which I know we're going to be covering properly when we cover Mercury Theater on the Air in seven years. um It'll be next year.
02:04:54
Speaker
It'll be next year. Okay, Honestly, we're going to get to the debut production of the Mercury Theater on the air before the year's end. Which was, of course, Dracula. No, Les Miserables.
02:05:07
Speaker
Was it Les Mis? It was Les Mis. Why am I thinking it was Dracula? Son of a bitch. Who lied to me? Their production of Dracula may be the most faithful adaptation of the book ever conceived.
02:05:19
Speaker
But according to my notes, it was Les Miserables. ah Son of a bitch, I was lied to by some source because as we all know, the internet is never wrong.
02:05:33
Speaker
Look, man, I'm just excited to watch a shitload of vampire movies later. I got Bex on board with watching Twilight and fucking Bram... Sorry, Francis Ford Coppola's Bram Stoker's Dracula.
02:05:44
Speaker
Yes. sorry or as i heard Columbia TriStar Pictures, Francis Ford Coppola's Bram Stoker's Dracula's You were the one I heard refer to it as. That was me. That was my dumb joke. Good. yeah I know you've seen Sinners. Like, Sinners is fucking master. fuck yes. Sinners was fucking killer.
02:06:03
Speaker
Holy shit. Maybe the greatest vampire film of the modern era, if not the greatest vampire movie of the whole time. I've seen it twice. I could stand to watch it 50 more times and I guarantee you I will pull new stuff out of it all the time. like that That's why I love Citizen Kane. That's why Citizen Kane is one of my favorite movies, if not my favorite movie of all time. Because vampires show up halfway through Citizen Kane?
02:06:27
Speaker
No, because every time I watch it, I'm pulling new shit out of it. I'm finding new things to see. And I feel like Sinners is going to be one of those movies where every time I watch I'm going to find and identify a new thing that I really love.
02:06:40
Speaker
Yeah, I'm to have to watch it again. That's purchase for me, certainly. 100%. I tried to pre-order the 4K and it's already sold out. Oh, fuck off. i Like, I tried to get the 4K steelbook and it's like, sorry, it's sold out. And I'm like, you bitches.
02:06:55
Speaker
I pre-ordered my 4K steelbook Arcane Season 2. So I got that waiting for me in October. There you go. Yeah, so whenever this episode drops. um ah So Julius Caesar...
02:07:09
Speaker
guy declares himself uh uh emperor and then gets stabbed by a bunch of people i'm sure that has no bearing on modern society deny deposed to defend depose or whatever the three d's are get me on a watch list real fast.
02:07:34
Speaker
Quick, quick before quick, before she moves on get her on a watch list. No, i there no you're you're there's definitely something to be said for that. like there There is something about, and and and we'll talk about this next year when we get to the Mercury on stage production of Caesar, where Wells makes the direct correlation between Julius Caesar and fascist Italy.
02:08:03
Speaker
Like he sets the entire production in fascist Italy. And it really, and we'll, we'll cover me and Orson Welles around the same time, the movie and the book potentially um right around the same time, because they're both about that. All of them are about the production of that play.
02:08:19
Speaker
um But there's something really like that production really kind of shakes people up in a way that like, Wells has this way when he starts to get into theater, and we'll talk about this in a few weeks when we get to Voodoo Macbeth, quote unquote Voodoo Macbeth, where Wells has a way of taking the Shakespearean shows and recontextualizing and recontextualizing them in a way that is
02:08:53
Speaker
vibrant and new and interesting and engaging for the theater audience writ large and it it awakened something in them that they potentially hadn't considered up to that point and i feel like voodoo mcbeth does that in the same way that the fascist caesar does that um That all of that is nowhere in everyday everybody Shakespeare.
02:09:21
Speaker
It's, it's nowhere in that the text at all. Um, the production of Julius Caesar that I watched actually earlier today in. Oh yes. I'm excited to hear all about this.
02:09:34
Speaker
and And we've, we, we, I kind of mentioned this before we started recording and I I'd been texting you about it in that. Oh, the French way that I do.
02:09:45
Speaker
Um, It is, it's an all, it's it's part of Felita, I think it's Felita Jones is the name of the director.
02:09:56
Speaker
um She produced a trilogy of, yeah Felita Lloyd, sorry, Felita Lloyd ah produced a trilogy of all female Shakespeare.
02:10:09
Speaker
And for ah for for a particular theater group in the UK. So all of the performers, all the actresses are UK actresses. And for the production of Julius Caesar, and and i I fell for this fucking hook, line, and sinker, as you well know.
02:10:26
Speaker
They are actresses playing inmates of a female correctional facility.
02:10:35
Speaker
and sureing And the the setup for the show, like these guards literally march them into the theater single file and then kind of dispatch them to their various points. They're like various starting points and the guards are literally standing there the whole fucking show.
02:10:52
Speaker
Oh my God. It's so fucking incredible. It's on Hoopla. If you have a library card and your library has, has, uh, gives you access to Hoopla, which is a a streaming app specifically for mobile devices, laptops, cell phones, tablets, et cetera.
02:11:10
Speaker
Uh, you can, you can cast it to your TV though. If you want to watch it on a major screen, on a bigger screen. Um, but the, and then like the, the actress who plays Mark Anthony,
02:11:22
Speaker
is Her name is Jade Anuka. She's un-fucking-believable, but she gets up and says this stuff like, yeah, we're you know i i made a mistake several years ago. I committed manslaughter. I'm in prison for X amount of years.
02:11:37
Speaker
I've really found my voice through our performance of these Shakespeare plays. I really hope you get a lot out And it's fucking convincing to the point that I texted you like the production that I'm watching of Julius Caesar is apparently from some women's correctional facility.
02:11:54
Speaker
It wasn't the end of the fucking play that I realized they were actresses. The whole time I'm like, these women are amazing. And then at the end I'm like, what else?
02:12:07
Speaker
They're like listing credits? like What else have these women been in? Turns out a lot of shit because they're actual actresses and I'm an idiot um is what it boils down to.
02:12:19
Speaker
it's It's so fucking good. Good job, buddy. it's and And it is, as I mentioned, to as I texted you earlier, very deeply sapphic.
02:12:29
Speaker
Because again, it's an all-woman production. and yeah yeah Women playing men, women playing women. Like the one of the first fucking images of the play is Caesar coming out.
02:12:40
Speaker
And you it almost makes you wonder, like, is this actually Shakespeare? Because the language is very modern initially. Yeah. right Shakespeare comes out and is like, hey, it's a party for me.
02:12:54
Speaker
And then mike the actress playing Mark Anthony runs up to the actress playing Caesar and they like start kissing. and you're like, holy shit, like what is this? um But then the actress playing Brutus and the actress playing Portia have like these really intimate moments together.
02:13:14
Speaker
The actress playing Caesar and the actress playing Copernia. Like there's these, there are these moments of like deep intimacy between these women, both as they're playing men and as they're playing men and women together. That is...
02:13:28
Speaker
really really incredible and like really rich like it's i feel like hope i feel like you would really fuck this is like 100 your shit Oh, yeah. No, I'm going to. This is an easy sell to Bex.
02:13:41
Speaker
Absolutely. This is going on the list. understand Again, if you've got a library card in your library, and I can't imagine a Philly library will not have access to Hoopla.
02:13:51
Speaker
We should. We should. I'm sorry. Every time you say Hoopla, I just think of that fucking meme. It's like, have you seen the latest series? It's on Gipelblank. ah Have you seen the newest Marvel movie? It's on... You're just saying fucking random syllables, man. I hate this fucking society.
02:14:11
Speaker
It is a legitimate app, and it it honestly, it's a great app. um it Using your library card, you can legit you can write movies, books, audiobooks, Um, it, it's, it's a great app.
02:14:24
Speaker
I, if you have a library card and your library offers it hoop like canno hoopla, hoopla and canopy. Those are the two canopy with a K. Those are the two apps. Get them look like, love them.
02:14:37
Speaker
No ads. You can just watch the whole thing fucking straight through. It's great. I love it. It's great. Um,
02:14:46
Speaker
let me finish my whiskey. You finish that whiskey, my friend. But yeah, there's a... um It's a fascinating piece, Julius Caesar, because it's about...
02:14:59
Speaker
Autocrats, in essence. Again, a thing that we have no experience with in 21st century America. None. In the the year of our Lord, 2025, autocrat?
02:15:12
Speaker
What's that? Our condolences to Stephen Colbert. Who can fucking... God. R.I.P. a fucking legend, Stephen Colbert. He's not fucking dead.
02:15:25
Speaker
okay fit Okay, fine. i mean, who knows? This episode drops in late August. who will in in between right You're right. I'm sorry. I'm also watching your video and it's fading back and forth between color and black and white. So I'm just like, it's kind of freaking me out a little bit. Like, have you wandered onto Geedy Prime, my friend? Like, what's going on?
02:15:51
Speaker
No, it's I'm gauging between ah Orson Welles films in which he did not direct and Orson Welles films in which he did. Ah, that's what it is. um But no, like again, again, of these three plays, Julius Caesar is the one I have the experience with.
02:16:08
Speaker
But and again, we'll talk about it next year when we get into the fascist Caesar, the the play that really did kind of make waves for Orson and and really kind of help put him on the map.
02:16:20
Speaker
One of several productions I think that helped. I will say that a lot about Orson. There are several projects that, quote, put him on the map because different people, I think, discover him at different times.
02:16:32
Speaker
Of course, the main project that, quote, puts him on the map is the War of the Worlds broadcast, which we will talk about sometime next year, I'm sure. If not sooner, wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
02:16:46
Speaker
ah Hope has something in the works, I will just say. Hey, yeah, we'll all figure it out. We'll figure it out. We'll get sandwiches. We'll figure it out. I love sandwiches. We'll get hoagies and we'll figure it out.
02:16:59
Speaker
I mean, again, we're in Philly, so we might as well. Cheese steaks and hoagies. Of course, I'm in Chicago, so it's going to be an Italian beef and maybe a Chicago. now to Grover's Mill, New Jersey. Yes, of course.
02:17:11
Speaker
um
02:17:14
Speaker
I love it. i can't I can't fucking wait for what you come up with. Oh, God. It's going to be so stupid. Let's just lower those expectations. That's why lower can't wait. Lower.
02:17:24
Speaker
hope as someone who is your friend and as someone who loves your threshold for stupid, I'm so fucking excited. You know what um Alex Hirsch of Gravity Falls said on writing, if you can't make it smart, make it real stupid. And I really feel like you're bringing all of the fucking notes and I'm just bringing like, what if dumber?
02:17:46
Speaker
What if stupid? And I feel like that's a good balance. I feel like we found our, our, kind of balance here. And again, we'll continue to develop that over the course of this podcast.
02:17:58
Speaker
Yes. When we get into radio, fucking dogs off the leash. Fuck. Yeah. Hell yeah. i'm so good i Honestly, I can't wait to just let you talk about, to just let you go off the leash and info dump for, for several episodes.
02:18:11
Speaker
Cause I've been doing it up to this point and I can't wait for you to get the chance.
02:18:18
Speaker
but great let's more i mentioned Did I mention that we're finishing off this year with The Shadow? um you' I'm so fucking excited for that. Here's the thing.
02:18:29
Speaker
I've got at least one episode dedicated to The Shadow. You get to determine how many episodes we do on The Shadow. I'm going to leave that in your ballpark. I already have a pull list of several episodes of The Shadow that I will recommend as a primer for a new listeners. Fucking primer.
02:18:46
Speaker
Yeah. Get fucking stoked listeners. Like we have got so much great shit planned for you over the course of the next 20 years. should i just <unk> go ahead and look Just go ahead and look it up on YouTube right now. It's called The Shadow, The Silent Avenger. It's my favorite episode of the show.
02:19:06
Speaker
It fucking rips. ah Yeah, totally worth them Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men. Orson couldn't do the laugh. Orson couldn't fucking do the laugh. He couldn't fucking do the laugh.
02:19:19
Speaker
I love that. We're going to get there. and We'll get there. As for right now, though, Julius Caesar. Julius Caesar. I don't know. Hope anything or to get got on Julius Caesar.
02:19:31
Speaker
It's my big thing about Julius Caesar right now is that it is 1035 at night and ah we should stab him. You know what? led Let's fucking Ides of March have come, I Caesar, but not gone.
02:19:47
Speaker
and let's wrap this sumbitch up. Hope, what have you got what have you got going on? What's your social media? What are your plots? Holy shit. It's hiimhope.com. H-I-G-H, hope.com.
02:20:00
Speaker
ah That's where you'll find anything I care to put out, including recently I finally started putting out ah my creative writing, which I am working on more of as we speak.
02:20:12
Speaker
ah The only other podcast I have active right now is The Lanes Between, which I decided to record this podcast instead of editing an episode in which I record ah interview a couple of ah major fanfic authors, which drops ah several weeks ago at the time of ah whenever you're hearing this episode.
02:20:33
Speaker
Ah! But if you go back to the episode that drops on August 1st, 2025, you'll hear me talking to a couple of major fanfic authors. I'm very excited about that. ah I'm editing that tomorrow. That's not happening tonight.
02:20:47
Speaker
That's not happening. No, it's not. No. i i know I fucking love that for you. I listened to the first episode of Lanes Between. I'm not going to lie. I have absolutely no idea about that fucking fandom. I listened to that episode because... You are not the target audience. I don't blame you, man.
02:21:05
Speaker
I'm not. I listen to it because I love you so much. and i appreciate that. And I will tell you, you're fucking great in it. And I mean that... legitimately you are really fucking good in that episode well I truly appreciate it and I'll say this I play a drag queen in episode 3 and now I've got to listen to episode 3 damn it I play like i whatsoever I play I play like James from Team Rocket from Pokemon perfect perfect good for you and make it double
02:21:40
Speaker
ah It's good shit. To protect the world from devastation to no people within our nation. Fuck off. I actually wrote my own for Dungeons and Dragons. So I wrote, yeah, yeah, yeah. ah I don't know if I tell you enough, but God, I love you. you i love you too, man. You're an amazing person. i'm so I'm not going to drop that now. I'll drop it some future down the line when nobody's expecting it.
02:22:06
Speaker
But because I still have it memorized. Uh, Stephen, what do you got? Cause that's all I got right now, man. I got, I've got so much hope. I am, night falls kick it in and I am just like, my bed is three feet away.
02:22:19
Speaker
the the i i All the beverages that I've had are starting to like compound. So I'm right there with you. I will tell you, i host, I am a co-host of the podcast Disenfranchised with our editor, producer Tucker.
02:22:34
Speaker
I'm sorry, Tucker. Love you, buddy. ah We talk about movies that were supposed to kick off long running franchises, but for some reason or another didn't.
02:22:45
Speaker
Um, and, uh, I also am a frequent collaborator on the pod in the pendulum podcast. I was supposed to be in a lot more episodes of their summer of George covering the, uh, movies of, uh, the, the living dead movies of George Romero because of various reasons. I've not been on as many episodes as I wanted to be. Sorry about that.
02:23:07
Speaker
Um, but they're going on right now and they're, they cover all the horror franchises, one, one franchise, one movie at a time. Uh, and then of course, um, I, as of the day of this recording, Hope,
02:23:19
Speaker
i I found out that I was cast in a local community theater production of Inherit the Wind, one of my favorite plays of all time. ah I was cast as the the the local small town pastor, like the Reverend Jeremiah Brown.
02:23:37
Speaker
Fuck yeah. According to my director, quote, the only irredeemable character in the show. ah i love playing a villain. so I am super stoked.
02:23:50
Speaker
It was one of the top four roles that I requested to be in for the show. It is a show that I've done more than one time. This will be the second time I'm doing it. I will include a link to buy tickets in the show notes. If you are in the south suburbs of Chicago or even the south West suburbs of Chicago. Come see us.
02:24:09
Speaker
We run the last weekend of September, first weekend of October, which will still be in the future as of the release of this episode. um So come see us. Come see me. If you are a fan of the Wells university podcast, let me know.
02:24:25
Speaker
And I will give you a great big old hug. um But yeah, it's, it's going to be a fun production. I'm very excited. I don't, I legitimately at this point, I don't know who else is in the cast. that's That's how new this information is to me.
02:24:39
Speaker
i literally found out on my lunch break today that I was cast in the show. So c incredible I'm very excited. Thank you so much. I'm very excited. Unlike the last show that I did where I was announcing it um like as we were like in our final weeks of production.
02:24:57
Speaker
This time, if you are in the area, you can actually come see the production. Hell yeah. As of the release of this episode. So if you if you have the means and are in in the area, please come by. i would love to see you. Just let me know you're a Wells U fan and you will get an extra big ups from me.
02:25:13
Speaker
um But yeah, that's what I've got going on right now. Pascal is, ah the French. ah um the phrase i also I also want to shout out my buddy JP Leck, who may or may not be on this podcast in the future. He's been on Disenfranchised a few times.
02:25:29
Speaker
I don't know if he wants to be on a Wells podcast. His his little brother absolutely will be at some point. ah But he is getting ready to release his second feature film, Circle City Supernatural 2, in which i both me and our producer Tucker play a play prominent roles in the film. Fuck yeah.
02:25:49
Speaker
Be on the lookout for that. I'm pretty sure that'll hit streaming either later this year or sometime next. But yeah, like that's kind of all I've got in the hopper.
02:26:00
Speaker
We will... Oh, and um I should probably mention the podcast socials. ah Shoot us an email, wellsyupod at gmail.com if there's something you want to say.
02:26:10
Speaker
Give us a five-star rating and review either on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Let people know how much you like us. We will read those reviews or emails directly here on the episode.
02:26:22
Speaker
ah One thing I meant to bring up that I have not brought up yet, Hope. Okay. um This was an article released in May of this year. Somehow we managed to miss it.
02:26:34
Speaker
Nearly 40 years after his death, Orson Welles is back as a disembodied AI-generated voice in location-based storytelling app Storyteller. Basically Orson Welles is now a voice in a, in an AI voice in a storytelling. You can have ah voice that's an AI generated voice. that sounds a lot like Orson read you stories. And I fucking hate it.
02:27:03
Speaker
So, Steven, I'm going to tell you a very, very quick story. So I work in ah sheet metal manufacturing. Right. It's my day job. um And ah one of the machines I operate is a press brake, a machine that's designed to press down with 20 tons of press force to ah bend ah distinct angles into ah sheet metal.
02:27:29
Speaker
And ah it requires ah back gauges to determine the length of the flange ah in the sheet metal. I'm going to get real technical for a hot second. It's going to pay off. Don't worry about it.
02:27:41
Speaker
I mean, it's it's really fucking hot. Keep going. This is where my professional side actually peeks through. um now ah Now, the machines we have were ah manufactured ah in 1981, which is more than 40 years ago, you'll note.
02:27:59
Speaker
and Orson Welles, still alive in 1981. Still alive. It should be mentioned. Correct. And... And the one is starting to have ah hydraulic leak issues, um which means that it kind of...
02:28:15
Speaker
stutters back and forth and modulates the length of the flange by about, uh, uh, 50,000 of an inch, which doesn't sound that much, but when you've got a tolerance of 20,000, uh, it can fuck with you quite severely.
02:28:34
Speaker
And it registers as you're holding the sheet metal up to the back gauges in the press break, it registers as a bump, bump, Bum bum bum bum bum.
02:28:46
Speaker
So talk about telltale heart. We literally describe it as the pulse of the machine. So I spend my day at work all day, every day thinking i have to stop the machine's heart from beating.
02:29:01
Speaker
And then you tell me that we've created a new AI monstrosity and I am fully goddamn prepared to go full bore Sarah Connor Trinity.
02:29:12
Speaker
Let's fucking go death to the machines. Fuck this shit. Fuck this shit. Fuck everything about that. Fuck it.
02:29:24
Speaker
in a case In case Hope did not make our position clear, this is an anti-AI podcast. Oh, fucking hate a i We are both of us somewhat disappointed. No, I will say we are both ah extremely disappointed in the Wells estate for allowing his voice to be used in this way.
02:29:43
Speaker
um It is anathema. It is an affront to everything i believe the man stood for. um It fucking sucks. Anyway, I'll include a link to that in the show notes if you want to read up more on that.
02:29:59
Speaker
um I will give you a just kind of the editorialized version. It fucking sucks! um But yeah, ah make sure to follow us on social media. We're on Blue Sky and YouTube at Wells U Pod. Those are the only two places we are, except no substitutes.
02:30:17
Speaker
um But yeah, that is episode nine class. number nine of the Wells U podcast. Join us next week when we talk about Wells's first film, The Hearts of Age. We'll include a link to your homework in the show notes for this episode. It mainly just includes a YouTube link to the video itself.
02:30:37
Speaker
um And so for my co-host or my co-host, mike ah my my fellow TA, oh sco and myself, until next time, dare I say it?
02:30:49
Speaker
No, i dare. Class dismissed. And party on dudes. And party on dudes.