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Free Weekly Episode - Juventus 15 Point Deduction Deep Dive, Osimhen’s Napoli Win Again, Lookman’s Atalanta Show & Much More (Ep. 290)
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From a detailed deep dive into all angles of the capital gains scandal which has seen Juventus be deducted 15 points, Lookman stars in Atalanta's thrilling 3-3 draw with Bianconeri, to Osimhen's Napoli back to winning as well as Paulo Dybala leading Roma to top 4 in Serie A, Nima and Carlo break down another crazy weekend in Italian football.
Every Monday episode of The Italian Football Podcast is free for all. To listen to all full episodes of The Italian Football Podcast, go to Patreon.com/TIFP to become a Patron for only $2.99 USD per month (excluding VAT).
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian football podcast.
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to the Italian football podcast. I'm Carle Garganese, joined as always by Nimr Tovale.
Juventus Points Deduction: Overview and Implications
00:00:14
Speaker
Over the past few days Juventus and Serie A have been hit by the hammer blow which has seen Juve deducted 15 points in the capital gains case. We're going to spend a large chunk of today's show going through this ruling, explaining what it means, why and how it happened, what happens next.
Podcast Structure and Support
00:00:33
Speaker
as well as debating all the questions and controversies that have arisen as a result. And we'll also review the weekend serial action as well as talk a little bit about the latest in the Seria transfer market.
00:00:48
Speaker
For all our first time listeners, this is our free weekly episode, which we do every Monday, reviewing the weekend Serie A action and all the biggest talking points in Italian football. If you want to support the Italian football podcast and receive all of our content that we do throughout the week, including our weekly Q and A episode every Tuesday.
00:01:06
Speaker
where we answer all the questions sent in from our Patreons, plus our weekly Thursday midweek review show, plus interviews, post-match reaction, and much much more, then go to patreon.com slash T-I-F-P and become a subscriber for just £2.99 a month plus VAT.
00:01:24
Speaker
For all of you listening on Spotify, iTunes, Apple Podcasts, etc, we'd really appreciate a five star rating and a follow sub as this really helps us to spread the gospel of Serie A and Italian football.
Hosts' Frustration with Italian Football
00:01:39
Speaker
okay right let's get straight into it and let's talk about Juventus's 15 points penalty okay right this is the last thing that i want to be talking about thank you for saying that i i'm just i'm so deflated uh i just want to say that i am so deflated i'm so
00:02:01
Speaker
I feel so flat. Everything I wanted to talk about, everything I could have wished for it to happen, this is the last thing. And I'm just so angry. We spoke about this yesterday, just before we were preparing the show. I'm tired. I'm exhausted. I have no
00:02:21
Speaker
you know, desire to talk about this at all. And I think that sums up pretty much every fan, most nearly every fan of Italian football.
Financial Disparities: Serie A vs Premier League
00:02:33
Speaker
Obviously, Juventus fans, but but everyone, everyone, most people I know, as much as they gloat on social media and stuff like that, I've spoken to so many people who support all kinds of clubs who are just
00:02:47
Speaker
Yeah, they've had enough. They've had enough, especially after everything that happened last week, where it was really hit home about the state of Italian football compared to the Premier League with the riches and the rich list coming out. And we see and we're seeing the financial gap between the Serie A Premier League, which is at such a such a level now that it's just it's just become it's just become something of a joke now. And then this happens. And you just think what is the point?
00:03:11
Speaker
What is the point? You know, this is, you know, we do this podcast because we love Italian football. We do it in our own time and we do it because we want to bring joy and we want to talk about all the great stuff in Italian football. And yes, of course, sometimes there will be, you know, there's always going to be negative stuff to talk about. That's part of the job, part of the life. But we're just fed up with this now. But we have to talk about it because it has such repercussions on
00:03:38
Speaker
Serie A and on Juventus and on Italian football and on the future of Italian football.
Juventus Legal Proceedings and Appeal Plans
00:03:44
Speaker
All of it negative, all of it, you know, well, we'll come to that. We're going to discuss that. So first of all, what I'm going to do is I'll just read out and explain what's happened. And then I'm going to ask Nimr a couple of questions, which are going to be more just factual based stuff, just kind of explaining the who, what, when, how, why, all the five W's.
00:04:05
Speaker
And then we'll do a little debate and discussion of some of the key takeaways and talking points from this. So first of all, what has actually happened is that the FIGC appeals court has handed Juventus a 15-point deduction in the capital gains case. There was an initial trial last year in which Juventus were cleared.
00:04:30
Speaker
Prosecutor Giuseppe Gine asked for the trial to be reopened against Juventus after there was new information that came about during the Prisma investigation, which is a separate investigation by the Turin public prosecutor into Juventus' alleged use of inflated player transfer values and secret wage payments in 2020 during the COVID pandemic, which is actually
00:04:55
Speaker
uh more serious um and on friday yeah because the giventas are a publicly triggered a treated company and yeah yeah we'll come to that we'll come yeah yeah yeah it's a criminal yes a criminal case we'll come to that and on friday uh china requested um the event has be handed a nine point penalty in this capital gains case um and in the evening friday evening um the the decision was passed by the judge uh in which nine point
00:05:21
Speaker
Penalty requests became a 15-point deduction, quite unprecedented, as well as severe bans for Andrea Agnelli, Fabio Paratici, Federico Thierubini, Pavel Nedved, and Maurizio Areva-Bener, really, really long bans, 13 months for 30, 3-0 for Paratici.
00:05:44
Speaker
Aniele, Anarivabene, two-year bans, Cherubinu, 16-month suspension, and Nedved, an eight-month suspension. Juventus did release a statement responding to this ruling, confirming that they intend to appeal to the next highest court in the ladder, which is Coney's Colleggio di Garancia, and calling the decision unjust.
Legal Reasoning and Sporting vs Criminal Law
00:06:10
Speaker
Okay, so that's the very, very basics. First question for you, Nima, just as an explainer. Can you just expand on what I've said, explain this decision from a legal point of view, what has happened, what happens next, what you expect to happen in the appeal or in the appeals? Just sum everything up, basically, as simply as you can.
00:06:32
Speaker
Okay, so in order to understand that, we have to go and look to see what Giuseppe Kine said on, I think it was on Friday. No, yesterday is when I saw this when this was published, but basically what he said
00:06:53
Speaker
And just as a side note, the ruling has been known, has been made, but the verdict, the legal reasoning behind is yet to be published, which is bizarre, just in and of itself, is just the most ridiculous thing I've ever come across. That's not how it usually works. No, when you come out with a ruling, you release the verdict immediately.
00:07:20
Speaker
because that's why you wait. I'm not talking about this case. I'm talking in other countries when a court issues its ruling, it releases a written verdict explaining how it came to this conclusion. But Italy is Italy, and this isn't unique for this case. This apparently happens in Italy, which is whatever. But basically what he says is that
00:07:49
Speaker
He explains the reasoning where he says that the new evidence provided in the Prisma case is particularly problematic or serious from the sporting side of things, given how they've behaved has impacted on the Surya falsifying it. This is his words, not mine, falsifying it.
00:08:14
Speaker
In the seasons, the club has suffered significant loss, but instead of putting their hands in their pockets to refill their pockets, they've created fictitious capital gains which has allowed them to put real money on the transfer market to buy players which they have
00:08:34
Speaker
which they have then played, falsifying the sporting competition and hurting other clubs who really refinance or replant and did not sign players but maybe sold their jewels.
00:08:51
Speaker
There are clubs that have been forced to sell players who've scored 20 goals a season, and therefore they have paid the price in the league table in the seasons that followed." That's his reasoning for this.
00:09:12
Speaker
So basically, what they've come to the conclusion, and if we also take into consideration, I saw a really good interview with a lawyer called Grassani, where he basically explained how this works, and what he's saying is that,
00:09:32
Speaker
He says that the way that sporting law works is that they've looked at the entire evidence on display, meaning everything that was handed to them from the Prisma investigation.
00:09:53
Speaker
to their way of viewing it as a whole, they think that there was a mental element, because in law, you have to have two things in order to find a conviction. It's the actus reus, meaning the act itself, and the mens rea, these are Latin words, the mental element, meaning the intention, the intent. According to Grassani, he says, it's quite obvious that
00:10:19
Speaker
that they are looking at the totality of the evidence, and on that they see that there was an intent to deceive the system. As such, he calls it, it's a peculiarity of sporting law that indifference to, for example, the criminal law, you can sanction behavior without
00:10:49
Speaker
without actually having, if you feel that they've violated, that there was intent to deceive the system, pretty much. He's explaining the legal context here, that this is how they've come to, that's how they've reached this.
00:11:09
Speaker
this conclusion on how do they prove the intent how do they improve the intent through well they have the evidence well not just wiretaps they have the all of the evidence that they that the priest my investigation uh which is a criminal investigation has has uncovered and and that the italian fa has a right to see and what that is we don't know okay we don't
Potential Investigations of Other Clubs
00:11:29
Speaker
We don't know yet because they haven't indicted the people yet, as far as I'm aware, when we're recording this on the 27th century. It's likely to be a wiretap, a paretta she's saying to someone. I don't want to speak with her until we know. I think we should wait to see exactly. It's everything. It's not just him boasting about things. It's everything else. I mean, they look at the totality of it. It's not just wiretapping.
00:11:51
Speaker
It's everything. They look at, okay, so is there a paper trail? What's the crime they're being investigated for? Is there a paper trail? And what was the state of mind of the defendants at the time of the crime? That's what they're looking at. And wiretaps is part of that evidence. It's not the sole evidence, because wiretaps don't prove anything unless you have other evidence.
00:12:17
Speaker
as well. And that's a criminal investigation that's ongoing still. So that's what they've done here. And what Juventus could do and will do is that they will appeal this to the highest court of the Italian Olympic Committee. Now, there was a little bit of confusion around this on Friday. And since then, from what I understand, that court can't
00:12:44
Speaker
nullify this verdict. The only thing it can do is decide on whether or not the rights of the defendant have been violated and send it back to the Court of Appeals.
00:12:53
Speaker
if, which I expect it won't be, they will lose this, Juventus. But what they can do then is to appeal it to the TAR, which is the arbitration court in Rome, and that's where they will argue the merits of the case, meaning the actual legal merits of the case, saying, well, hang on a minute, we were already acquitted of this, nothing new has come to light, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Critique of Serie A's Inconsistencies
00:13:18
Speaker
And if they lose there, most likely it will end up with CAS.
00:13:22
Speaker
the arbitration court in, I think it's Switzerland. Okay. There has been some confusion over whether they're able to, because I've seen some say what you just said there, and I've seen some say that it can either be completely thrown out or it will be maintained. It can't be reduced. It can't be reduced from 15 to say six points.
00:13:44
Speaker
I've seen that as well, but I went to a legal journal. I went to a couple of legal journals and they say that this is the next procedure. This can only be appealed on. The legal merits can only be appealed in the Court of Arbitration in Rome, the TAR.
00:14:04
Speaker
and that the only thing that the collegio di gallantia can do, the Italian Committee's highest court, is to basically discuss, was there a procedural infringement upon Juventus' rights as a defendant and also the other defendants, the people who you mentioned and listed. But we'll have to wait and see how that goes. Yeah, okay. Right, the second question is,
00:14:32
Speaker
away from Juventus. Could anyone else be dragged into this any other teams? And could they be investigated and punished for plus for lens or offenses? You know, we've seen reports in the last days. I've just seen just this morning about the Naples prosecutor, perhaps looking into the Victor Ossiman deal from Lille. We've seen
00:14:52
Speaker
I've seen people talk about the interest deal for Bastoni, for Milan, for the Bonucci-Carvada deal. There are other teams. There were teams in the original investigation as well, which were cleared along with the inventors, some of the more smaller teams. Because remember, this isn't something that's just for Serie A. This is something that goes on. Serie B, Serie C, you know. Throughout the Italian liquor system.
00:15:13
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So is there could other teams be could be they could be dragged into this? Could they be dragged into this as well? I think it's inevitable that they will be.
00:15:23
Speaker
Because if they're going to start interpreting the law this stringently and the rules this stringently, then I think it's almost inevitable. But then again, based on what Kine said, that they've looked at the totality of the evidence and feel that there was an intent to defraud the system, and that's why they've come so hard on it. Is there evidence on the others? And if so, what is it?
00:15:49
Speaker
that we don't know. It depends on what has been uncovered in the pre-smart case, which does it involve anyone else? We don't know if there's a police investigation. The police don't usually tell you when they investigate you.
00:16:04
Speaker
So we don't know, but I think it's almost inevitable that every other club will somehow, to some extent, be affected by this, if they're going to interpret this so strangely. OK, right. I'm just making a note that I want to follow up on that.
00:16:29
Speaker
so clubs right okay that's fine i was just making a note because i've got a list of points that i want to make and i want you to to uh to jump in on each point i've actually got seven eight points now here and i want you to just i want you to just to jump in have your say let's debate this let's debate because i've got some key take which you might have your own as well which are free to to bring in whenever or at the end
00:16:54
Speaker
So let's go through what my takeaways are from this. And just to stress, this is with regards to the capital gains case. Yes, only the capital gains case. Not the other. Not the other, which is the UEFA, which is investigating for violations of financial fair play. Not the consub case, which is the Securities and Exchange Commission for tampering with the market because the Juventus are a publicly traded company.
00:17:22
Speaker
the other FIGC case, which is about cash in hand and allegations of cash in hand payments and playing players off the books. That's which is the most serious. Which is really the most serious one, because that could potentially get them serious point deductions and maybe even theoretically relegated, although I think that's highly unlikely.
00:17:46
Speaker
And the final case is the criminal case, which is the Turing public prosecutors, which is investigating for fraud and evasion and lots of other things. The final explainer question, which I thought had written down, but now you've mentioned it. These other things that you've entered, these other cases against you've entered, can they be deducted points for those, in which case it will be 15 points for this or whatever, plus
00:18:16
Speaker
extra points deduction. That's the thing though. The player wages one, we know you can get to the deductive points and the players can be suspended as well. That we do know. I don't know if they will add the points. I haven't looked into this, so I don't know if they will add any deductions on top of the 15 points.
00:18:38
Speaker
I honestly don't know, so I don't want to spread any fake news about this. I will have to look into that. But that's the one that I'm looking out for, because I just want to be perfectly transparent here. I don't care what happens to Andre Agnelli and Pavel Nedvid and the rest of them in the criminal case. As far as I'm concerned, you can lock them up and throw away the key. I don't care. That doesn't bother me. The only thing I care about is
00:18:58
Speaker
for our purposes on this podcast is the sporting impact this will have on the league and on the Serie A and Juventus because that's what we're concerned with here.
00:19:09
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah. Okay, right. Okay, let's go through the, let's go through the point. So first of all, just just just just expanding on what we said at the top here. And I'm just tired and exhausted by all this. I hate I hate that we're even having to discuss this having to discuss basically having to discuss before our very eyes and witness the self destruction of Italian football. Again, I mean,
00:19:37
Speaker
The way that this has been handled as well is something that I don't like at all, because I don't understand why they couldn't have just if they're going to, because this doesn't, you know, regardless how you feel about Calciopoli or doping or whatever, this doesn't go to the heart of what's happening on the pitch in that sense. Yes, there is a link, of course, if you cook the books, you can sign players and that impacts sporting, but that's an indirect.
00:20:00
Speaker
you know, it's an indirect impact on what happens on the pitch, meaning they could have actually given Juventus to start next season with minus 15 points. There is no reason to go into the table this season, in the middle of the season, with this kind of nuclear option. There was no need for that. There was no need for that. I mean, that's where I'm most critical against them, because there was no need to do that. And also, again,
00:20:25
Speaker
I understand that it's for the previous seasons and the priest my investigation and all that, but it doesn't look serious. Again, it doesn't look transparent. It looks like a knee-jerk reaction. It looks like a populist reaction to just, we're angry at you for doing shady shit, and so we're just going to throw the book at them on a case which we're going to get to as well.
00:20:53
Speaker
Look, there is no doubt every single club in the Italian ecosystem does this. Juventus took the piss. They literally took the piss. If everyone stole a cookie, Juventus stole the bakery. That's the equivalent here. There's no doubt about that. Let me move around because that was going to be my third point. I think this is what
00:21:19
Speaker
is this is what has angered and upset Juventus fans so much is that yes, it's absolutely no one is denying that and we'll get to whether it's actually even illegal what Juventus has done. We'll come to that.
00:21:35
Speaker
is yes, everybody inflates transfer fees. And sorry, it's clear you've entered inflated transfer fees. I mean, it's so obvious. I mean, the Pianic-Arfa deal was just so obvious. I mean, any idiot could see, it was so blatant. You know, a 30-year-old Miram Pianic, who had been in decline for two years, you put it on the books for 60 million,
00:22:00
Speaker
you sign Arthur Mello for 72 million. I mean, it's so obvious. There's so many of those deals if you look through Juventus' transfers, youngsters. I mean, it was systemic. No one is doubting that. They did. Like you said, they took the piss. But I think what has really angered and upset Juventus is why are Juventus the only team that
00:22:24
Speaker
that have been, you know, singled out. And yes, you say like you said, there could be others that are brought into it. But you know, we can only go by what we're seeing at the moment. And you know, if I just to give other examples, I love Napoli, I want them to win the Scudetto. The last thing I want is for them to get points deducted, to get points deducted. You know, I never I'll be I'll be even more pissed off than I am now if Napoli were to get
00:22:49
Speaker
a load of points deducted and didn't win the Scudetto as a result of that. So the last thing I'm doing is calling for Napoli to get points deducted. But check out the Victor Osseman deal from transfer from Lille. I mean, that transfer is every bit as blatant as the worst transfers that you've entered. They sold three absolutely dreadful youth players and kinesis to Lille for 20 million as part of the Osseman deal.
00:23:12
Speaker
I mean, it's absolutely blatant. Well, Grassani in an interview, he's a lawyer, and he says they asked him about this specific question. They said, why have the other teams? And he says the reason for that is because the Turin public prosecutor could not prove and did not have the evidence regarding the other clubs that the psychological element of the crime, meaning the mens rea, which I referred to earlier, the intent was not there.
00:23:42
Speaker
in the other clubs, whilst with Juventus the evidence showed that it was.
00:23:47
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah. Well, that's what that's what he's that's what he's he's I mean, I mean, the legal aspect of it. I know. I know. I know. And it depends. We don't know. We haven't seen the we haven't seen the explanation. So we don't know. But I mean, you know, even it sounds like me, it's probably just, you know, I mean, it sounds like technical technicalities, but whatever, you know, it's not technicality.
Impact of Juventus as a Public Company
00:24:08
Speaker
It's just how the law works in order for a crime to be to be proven. You have to have the act itself. But then you have the mental element as well. That's just how the law works.
00:24:16
Speaker
Yeah. And it works everywhere. Different ways of working. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Oh, actually, we'll get to that. I will come back to that. I will come back to that in a bit. You've made you made the legal point now, but I do have it. I do have something to come back on that. You know, so there's there's that there's I mean, the Bastani case from Inter is absolutely blatant as well. You know, when when Inter signed Bastani and they included a Guelphi. Has anyone ever anybody listens to this heard of the play called a Guelphi? I hadn't even heard of him. I was doing my I mean, I can remember this from a few years ago, but I'd forgotten the specifics.
00:24:46
Speaker
of it because I remember there was some controversy at the time about this. Yeah, I remember that. I couldn't remember. I couldn't remember. But I had to do my research for this. So I had to check it out. A Guela feel like who the hell is a Guelph? He's playing Celia Chino. He's 28 years old. He went for 6 million as part of the deal. And then the following summer, Betela,
00:25:03
Speaker
for seven million. And that was the following summer. That was the following. Yeah, but it was all part. Well, no, that was not part of that. There were another there were a couple of players involved in the Bastogne deal, but Iguelfi was one. I remember that vividly. But the following
00:25:18
Speaker
I mean, you might find it hard to prove, you might find it hard to prove they were part, but that does happen a lot in Italian football where they, you know, they, they say, okay, you know, we'll do this now, but then next summer you take these. But anyway, you can't prove that. But anyway, just look at them. Just look at the figures of some of these deals. I mean, you know, this says it all. And, you know, so even so based, the point is, you know, there's other examples as well. I mean, the Benucci caldera deal. I know Juventus are involved in that one as well. But even if you're even if you're able to, even if you're able to prove that
00:25:46
Speaker
What's the name of that Napoli player who went for 7 million to Lille as part of the Oseman? He plays in Serie D now. He's 22 years old. There's a Napoli player that was a youth player that went to Lille as part of the Oseman deal, who at 7-8 million euros, and he plays in Serie D now.
00:26:05
Speaker
Yeah, and he said that his career had been ruined by it. He came out and said, yeah, I can't remember the name, so I did have it written down. I mean, my notes here are so long. Yeah, me too. I can't find my notes. I was trying to condense what I had written down, otherwise we'd be here all day. For me, if you look at the most boom, I've got written notes, I've got computer notes, and I've got my phone notes. So I'm really struggling, scrambling here.
00:26:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I mean, so I mean, I guess the angle with Juventus fans is, you know, other teams, everybody does that. You mean, you've openly admit that everyone does it. Yes, Juventus have taken the piss and they've done it to an industrial level, levels that no one else has done it. But other teams have also done this a lot. And we've had some real serious examples like the two I've said here where they really did take the piss. Okay, maybe not
00:26:55
Speaker
in terms of numbers than much as you've entered, but everyone done it. So the point is, yes, OK, if you're going to penalise you've entered 15 points or nine points or whatever, you know, how can no one else be punished for this? How can it only be you've entered? Well, I'm saying watch this space when it comes to that because and also and the and the second part to that is
00:27:16
Speaker
the mental element, which Grasani's average has said, and also Kine said himself, that they've looked at the totality of the evidence after the priestly investigations, and they've come to the conclusion that there was definitely intent to deceive the system.
00:27:31
Speaker
And that's how sporting law works in Italy. Personally, that sounds quite subjective to me. That sounds quite subjective that they would decide that the totality of what Juventus have done in terms of the capital gains justifies a 15 point. It's not subjective. They only look at the evidence in front of them. And the evidence in front of them is what the priest my investigation has handed them.
00:27:57
Speaker
and or what the what the priest my investigation uncovered and as such but there's also there's all the other thing the other thing to mention about this is you know
00:28:09
Speaker
And this happens with police forces or whenever you're going after someone. If you decide to go after someone, you look for the evidence. And then you're more likely to find it. If you decide not to go after someone, well, then you're not going to find the evidence. Well, there's a difference here, Carlo. There's a difference here because you are a publicly traded company on the stock exchange.
00:28:30
Speaker
It's not like other clubs that are not, like Napoli and Inter are not. Milan are not publicly traded, as far as I'm aware. Can you explain legally why that makes a difference? Well, because the stock exchange, you're manipulating the market, because the value of stocks go up and down, and if you hide information that could impact the value of that, that's market manipulation. That's really illegal.
00:28:56
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? It's a different thing. So what you're saying is, criminally, they're more likely to look at Juventus because that's what you're saying. Exactly. They have to look at that. The Securities and Exchange Commission, they have an obligation, legal duty, to scrutinize all publicly traded companies.
00:29:13
Speaker
if that makes sense. Yeah, I get that. One of the big complaints is, like I said, you know, you know, and that's what you've said is important. But, you know, it's not personal. I understand that you're looking for the evidence you're going to find. I mean, you know, I just get just to give a local example, you know, I know local, I know local obviously kind of local police people are working police, you know,
00:29:40
Speaker
There's numerous drug dealers in my local hometown of Bedford, right? At least not everything. They know who all of them are. They know who all of them. They know who all the money launderers are in Bedford, right? But they only choose who they're going to go for. Number one, they won't go for one. They'll pick and choose who they go for. And number two, number two,
00:30:04
Speaker
Number two, they can't, they literally can't go. I mean, actually, you made this point to me differently as well. They actually can't go and arrest every single drug dealer because it's impossible. They don't have the time. They don't have the resources. They don't have the workforce. They don't have the workforce. So they have to go after, they want to go after every single, every single, uh, Serie A team that are committing, uh, you know, capital gains offenses. Then, you know, it's, it's literally impossible. They just wouldn't be able to be hit. Like, I think you said to me, they'd be here for 80 years. You said,
00:30:33
Speaker
if they were to do that. So I guess this is the point with the Juventus. They feel like they're being singled out because they're the biggest team. It's like, you know, let's go after the Juventus. Let's make an example out of them. You know, that's the feeling. And you can understand what you're saying. I understand the frustration of people feeling that, because they look at, you know, they look at the
00:30:57
Speaker
They look at how everyone does this to a lesser extent, but they see that everyone does it, and they see that there's only one club being charged with it. But what they don't know, and because of the fact that this is not how, because Italian sporting justice is so poor in their communication,
00:31:14
Speaker
They don't explain these differences. They don't explain it and how it actually works and why it works like this. They don't take the time to explain stuff like, well, you're a publicly traded company, you're going to be more subject to scrutiny because of all these other things. They don't explain stuff like that. And fans
00:31:32
Speaker
our fans, and they're pissed. They're tired of looking at it. That doesn't make it any more fair, does it? You might make it legally right, but it doesn't make it any more fair. The wiretap, correct me if I'm wrong, Juventus are the only team that have been wiretapped, right? No one else has been wiretapped. Again, the police never tell you when they're investigating you.
00:31:49
Speaker
But what we do know is that based on the evidence as we know it, Juventus directors are one of the, I think the others were as well, there were other people involved as well in different clubs and different people not connected to clubs. But as far as we're aware, they were wiretapped and that's not proof of anything.
00:32:09
Speaker
I know it's not. That's not proof of anything, of any kind of bias against you. It's not proof, but it's the police doing the job. The police are doing the job. No, it's not proof, but it's the way of collecting evidence and finding out and then you can go. They haven't tampered with the evidence. They haven't tampered with the evidence. No, no, no, no. I'm not talking about tampering with evidence. I'm saying it's a way of collecting evidence. When you wiretap, you're finding information out, which you can then build a case around. If you've entered, so the only club that have been wiretapped, they might not have, it seems like they are. We will know. Well, that's the thing. They weren't wiretapped.
00:32:36
Speaker
wiretap. And again, you can see why Juventus fans are not there. Yes. And if you wiretap Inter or you wiretap Milan or you wiretap Roma by doing those wiretaps, you're going to find out stuff which you can then build. That's the thing, though. That's the thing. That's what I'm saying. This is what I'm saying. They weren't wiretapped.
00:32:53
Speaker
because just to wiretap them, they were wired up because the police was in an investigation. They saw something that they wanted the wiretaps as a form to build the case. It's not like they just one day said, oh, let's listen to what Andreini and Paratici are talking about. That's not how it works.
00:33:11
Speaker
No, no, no, I know. I'm just trying to say why, in this case, that's what adds to the feeling of unfairness that you're going to want. Again, I 100% understand why UVA fans are frustrated and annoyed and that they feel singled out. I get that, and I think this is what happens when
00:33:28
Speaker
you have institutions that aren't transparent, that aren't good at communicating, that don't explain why they do how they do and how they do what they do, just rule. It does come across as ruling by decree almost, and that there is a bias against. I understand that feeling. But from then on to doing
00:33:49
Speaker
the to this this you know let's all cancel our seria subscriptions i'm sorry that's pathetic we'll come to that we'll come to that we'll come we'll come to that because i'll explain my feelings on that the other thing i was going to say is there's there's no um
Capital Gains and Financial Fair Play
00:34:04
Speaker
because another argument that's been made, not just by your vendor sense, but just just actually by legal experts I've seen is there, is there actually a specific rule preventing inflation transfer fees to whatever selling this up? Because as far as I'm aware, there is no law against it. So how is it false accounting?
00:34:20
Speaker
Well, look, again, they look at the totality of the evidence and I think they look at everything, meaning everything from the mental element. What was the intent of doing this? Was it an honest agreement that, for example, What's His Face was worth?
00:34:38
Speaker
player X was worth 10 million euros, or was the intent that let's bring this player's up to this value in order to... Those are the details that matter when proving the mental element and when I say the totality of the evidence that they look at when they make these legal decisions.
00:34:56
Speaker
No, it's 100% true that there is nothing regulating. It's a completely deregulated market. A player is only worth what the selling club is willing to accept, and the buying club is willing to pay. That's true. And that's why I personally think that you're on incredible shaky grounds if you're going to go in with a hammer here, because it makes the entire process look a bit ridiculous. People think that event is cheated,
00:35:25
Speaker
I would like to point them to me saying, where did they cheat? What did they cheat? Which law, which rule was cheating? And also, your own club has done it, so pipe down.
00:35:36
Speaker
The issue is that the level to which Juventus have done this and also the evidence available to the prosecution and the police and everyone is that the mental element requirement has been satisfied. They're happy with that. There was a clear intent to deceive the system. They didn't believe that these players were worth 10 million or 7 million or 8 million or whatever, right?
00:36:02
Speaker
And that's the evidence in front of them. They can only act upon the evidence in front of them. And that's why they've come to this conclusion. So this, you know, this isn't calchopoli. OK, this isn't a doping case. This is something else. And people need to remember that.
00:36:19
Speaker
It's very important that they remember this, because it's a separate issue. I find it absolutely ridiculous, some of these inflated values, including that Pianic half a deal, which is an absolute joke. Which, to be honest, that is probably the least scandalous thing they've done.
00:36:35
Speaker
to be perfectly honest. But it's obvious. But what I mean is it's absolutely obvious. But what the point I'm making is if it's not illegal, how can you I mean, it just doesn't make any sense. Well, that's that's the case. But if if you if you know something is is not if you know something is not against the law, then you can you're going to do it as much as you want. Well, that depends on what the mental well, that's the thing, though. I mean, because it's very we're very we're in very gray areas here and the mental element matters a lot. The act has been done by everyone. The mental element is where we're where we're where which is
00:37:04
Speaker
probably done Juventus in this case. But having said that, I think it's going to be, I think and I hope that they come to their senses here and that they don't go about it like this stringently. Because if they do and they start wiretapping everyone and they start collecting evidence and
00:37:27
Speaker
towards this, look, you can might as well just say goodbye to Serie A right now. And what do I mean by that? I mean that... No, listen, I want to come to this because capital gains, what is capital gains? Why is the only Spanish and Italian clubs obsessed with it?
00:37:45
Speaker
Well, it was the only way, after the financial fair play came into place, that the clubs from these leagues could compete with the Premier League because they didn't have the same revenue streams. Because when they inflated these capital gains, it released capital to be spent on the market. Something Kiné himself said in his statement. He means, what he meant, is that Juventus falsified the Serie A, giving them an unfair sporting advantage because other clubs had to sell
00:38:14
Speaker
players like Inter were forced to sell Lukaku, Inter were forced to sell Hakimi, etc., etc., because they couldn't afford to keep them. That's the argument he makes. That is a very stringent reading of the law. If you're going to do that,
00:38:32
Speaker
you could argue that with pretty much every single transfer in the city up. But again, it's actually the same for Juventus anyway, because if you actually look at numerous of their deals, including the ones that I've been the most critical of on this podcast, you know, they bought delicked. The only way they were able to finance the delicked deal was by doing that ridiculous, two ridiculous swap deals that were both a little dodgy.
00:38:57
Speaker
the Danilo Cansello swap deal and the Pellegrini, Luca Pellegrini, Spinazzola deal, two dreadful transfer decisions, but they did it because they wanted to buy Delict and that was the way that they managed to finance the Delict deal was through this through the capital gains.
00:39:12
Speaker
So yes, you are right, you're right, but at the same time, not you, but what you're saying is right, but at the same time, actually, Juventus had to do it in order to fund their own transfers. No, but they all have to do that. Every single one of them has to do it like that. And if Italian football, if this is the new law of the land and Italian football is going in like this,
00:39:34
Speaker
then I suspect that the winner of the Serie A for the 2023 is going to be the notoriously honest and law-abiding citizens Adriano Galiani and Silvio Berlusconi and Monza. They're going to win the scoretto because they're not bothered with this stuff. They're too smart to be caught in this web. And to me, then if Galiani, the beacons of honesty, I can't think of anything to show
00:40:01
Speaker
of how broken the Italian ecosystem is than that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, no, no, no, you're right. Because look, again, it's not. Can I just add one other thing? Because I want to come into this area destroying itself next. But the one other thing I would add is that there's also
00:40:17
Speaker
when you say about shaky legal ground, what else have been hilarious about this case is that they actually use transfer mark to values as a legal basis. Yeah, which is hilarious. I mean, that is just that is just hilarious, because I mean, transfer mark. I know people that work there. I think it's great. Fantastic. But I'm sorry. You know, those values are just I don't know where they're just what algorithm makes them up. You know, some of them are wildly inaccurate. You know, they
00:40:45
Speaker
idea that you can use that, but then you have to codify that so everyone knows what it is. You can't just go, oh, we just went on the internet and searched player transfer values. I mean, it's cartoonish. It's incredibly cartoonish. It's not worth 60 million because Transfer Mark said he was worth 32 million. But the point I'm making is simply that I think
00:41:10
Speaker
Everyone has failed collectively again, some more than others. And I think this has been incredibly cartoonishly handled by the prosecutor and the serials, the prosecutor and the Italian Olympic Committee's legal team. I think the way that they've handled this was unnecessary.
00:41:31
Speaker
They didn't need to destroy the season, because they have destroyed the season, let's be honest. This season will never recover. Look, this is the thing, you should be really stringent when you go into the table and deduct points. Remember when the whole circus we had during Covid,
00:41:52
Speaker
with points being plus three points being handed left, right and center games being replayed, some games not being replayed. I mean, you don't go into the table when you do that. You kind of you have to you only do that when you absolutely cannot do anything. But and this could have been avoided. They could have done also how does it can also have a point deduction for next.
00:42:12
Speaker
That's it. What's the formula for this 15-point deduction? I mean, how did they come up with that number? Okay, it might be on the explanation. I mean, it's a joke. I mean, it's unprecedented. Well, they will explain it. They will explain it. How on earth can the prosecutor ask for nine points and the judge give 15? I mean, that is just absolutely downright bizarre. No, it's not bizarre. The judge is the one who decides what the correct position of the law is. The prosecutor can ask for whatever the hell he wants.
00:42:37
Speaker
uh the judge is not bound by anything the judge in any legal in any legal case decides not really no not really to get more i mean i don't know any i don't know any incidents as well it's not it's not it's not it's not a scandal at all it's it's actually in legal terms it's not it's it happens all the time what what the prosecutor wants is what the prosecutor wants but the judge is the one who decides what the actual position of the law is that's his job and he has to explain how and why and so on and so forth
00:43:06
Speaker
So we will know once the verdict has been issued. What I've seen is they wanted to make it, they wanted to give a points deduction that was actually would affect Juventus in terms of the table, whereas nine wouldn't affect it, whereas 15 would, that's what.
00:43:21
Speaker
I mean, that's speculation and we will have to wait until the actual verdict is released. I think it's in seven days or eight days or whatever it is. Let's move on to Seria destroying itself. And I know some people, many people that I speak to totally agree with me here. And then there's others that feel very, very strongly against what I'm about to say here. And that is, you know, this is obviously another example of Seria
00:43:45
Speaker
Destroying itself, you know with with its scandals Now other leagues you yours I mean you you actually admit it yourself that that they've handled this terribly Partly because I think that you as you've also said that you don't feel that this is a serious enough case compared to some of the other scandals in the past and also Maybe some that might follow like the the one about pain paying off the book wages is definitely more Yeah, so you're probably in agreement with me on this
00:44:13
Speaker
particular case, but maybe not for my general point. And that is I'm saying I'm saying I'm saying my point other leagues would not do this. You know, PSG have cooked the books for years, hundreds of millions a year, Man City the same cooking the books every single year. They claim Man City claim they make the most commercial revenue in the in the world. Now, I can tell you I've worked in football for 15 years since since city been nobody
00:44:38
Speaker
reads, you won't even get 1000 readers on an article when I was at goal, which was the biggest, which was the at the time, it's not now it's a joke, but at the time, it was the biggest football website in the world, right? We used to get, you know, 50,000 100,000 on the big teams, people reading the stories Manchester City, we stopped even doing, doing articles on them, there's no interest in them.
00:45:02
Speaker
You know, people don't you don't even get 1000 don't even get 500 readers on their articles. Nobody gives a shit about Manchester City. So the idea that they have got this commercial reach and can be the richest club in the world is just a downright joke. Basically, they don't even feel like their own stadium with their local fans, their stadiums. It's called the empty had for a reason.
00:45:20
Speaker
You know, they call it the empty hat. They don't even fill up their own stadium. You know, so the idea that Man City can claim hundreds and hundreds of millions of euros commercial revenue from merchandise and obviously the sponsorship contracts we know they sponsor themselves like PSG do. I mean, you know, they have been cooking the books for years to a much larger degree in terms of money that's going than even Juventus or any of the Serie A clubs have done, put together the Serie A teams. That's how much they've been doing. They've been doing it systematically year after year.
00:45:50
Speaker
year after year. They have been cleared. This has been litigated and they have been cleared. Look into that as well. Yeah, but what I'm saying, no, but it's important to make that distinction. It's important to say that as well, because that's a fact. They have been cleared of this. Personally, I think they did get past, they did go, they were guilty on a number of occasions, but got ridiculous fines from UEFA, which were just, you know,
00:46:17
Speaker
All I'm saying is look into the Der Spiegel's brilliant investigative reporting on this. I think it's worth a read. And I do agree that the punishment was a joke.
00:46:28
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And you know, look at the corruption of Barcelona, the Bartomeo administration, you know, the people that went to jail, the Barca gate investigation, look at the Neymar transfer to Santos where tens of millions was unaccounted for. And there was a big trial on the 1.5 billion in debt. If there'd been any normal country, they would have been liquidated.
00:46:49
Speaker
And then you've seen what they did last summer with all these financial levers that they pulled. And you could go on and on, Chelsea breaking FFP. I mean, Chelsea are talking about capital gains and talking about amortization and putting things through the books. They've just given an eight and a half year contract to Mudrick in order to not break FFP. I mean, you could go on and on. But the point I'm trying to make is, you know,
00:47:13
Speaker
If you don't see these leagues coming down and punishing and putting air in their dirty laundry in public and bringing down their own league in order to punish teams like Serie A does, if these teams were playing in Serie A, what would the FIGC, the league and the courts, what would they do? They would drag them through the mud, they would relegate them, they would deduct them points.
00:47:36
Speaker
You know, I know I know this is a difficult issue because we're not trying to condone cheating. We're not. We don't want to say, right, you should cheat. You should, you know, you should be able to do what you want and we should cover it up and sweep it under the carpet because we want to protect the league. You know, I'm not saying it's right morally, but, you know, Serie A destroys itself by doing this and the other leagues don't do it. And this is what angers me so much. You know, do you understand what I'm saying? I know what you're saying, but that's to me, that is
00:48:06
Speaker
I disagree with this. I don't like this sweeping under the rug and everyone
Cultural Issues in Italian Football
00:48:12
Speaker
does it so we do. That's more of relativism and that's what gets Italy into trouble time and time and time again. The root problem is, as I said, it's to deal with the fact that the revenue streams in the Serie A are
00:48:24
Speaker
That's the root and that's lay at the heart of this. The reason why the Premier League clubs don't, I mean, as I said, if you if you go ask a Premier League fan what capital, mention capital gains, they'll be like, what capital radio, capital records, they don't even know what that is. And there's a reason that Italian clubs and Italian fans of Italian clubs know what that is. And that's because they have had to do this because financial for UEFA's financial fair play cemented all the differences when it came in. It cemented the differences that
00:48:51
Speaker
the advantages that the EPL had over everyone else and the advantage that the EPL had were off. That was done to the EPL being smart and doing things great and doing it correctly and the Selya being dysfunctional as is evident now.
00:49:11
Speaker
It's not a criticism of the Premier League, but what the UEFA's financial fair played was to cement these changes, meaning that even if foreign owners came to Serie A and refurbished and invested and did all of these things, they could still, after financial fair play, not
00:49:27
Speaker
compete at the same level because the game is rigged against Serie A. We know that. We know that the game is rigged. The point is this. The idea that some try to say to justify everything that's going on is that somehow Serie A is more scandalous than every single other league. It's not more scandalous. The most scandalous league of all, if you actually were to actually dig deep,
00:49:51
Speaker
into the ownerships of these clubs, the Premier League. Have a look at the owners of the Premier League, the state ownership. Have a look at, and I'm not even just talking about finances, I'm talking about actual down right criminals. I'm not talking about down right criminals. Some stories which I couldn't even share on here because I would get, you wouldn't hear from me ever again, I'd disappear if I brought it up. You look at the down right, look at some of the owners, you don't even know some of the people that own clubs in the Premier League, some of the stuff they get up to.
00:50:19
Speaker
Right. That is known about. Well, all I'm going to say is that before, you know, before the current owner of Man City, you had an actual dictator of a country owning Man City. I mean, yeah. Well, there's actually worse one. There's actually worse than that now. I know. But yeah, no, you're right. So the point the point I make is, could you imagine if this was in Syria, we'd be dragging this all up in the media, we'd be deducting points, we'd be, you know, this is this is the point I'm making. So I understand.
00:50:49
Speaker
Look, you know, again, we can't sit here and in a way we can't sit here and I mean, it's easy to say, you know, we should just stop. We should just stop creating scandals and stop, you know, committing crimes, address the issue. The point is the point I'm making is that everybody does this in every country. This is this is just big corporations. This is this is how it works. You know, look at look at the biggest corporations in the world.
00:51:13
Speaker
Listen, listen, I don't, I don't look at Starbucks, not, listen, listen, listen, listen. You could go on and on. So what can we do? But the thing is that I don't, I don't understand this notion of, well, since everyone does it, so can we do it. So let's just, you know, that that's, then, then we, you know, you, you, you can't just accept rampant criminal behavior because everyone, everyone does it. And that, I mean, no,
00:51:38
Speaker
I agree. That's ridiculous. I mean, this is the point I'm making. I'm saying that the root cause is the revenue streams. The revenue streams in the city are a joke because of several issues.
00:51:51
Speaker
mainly because Serie A is run by incompetent people and corrupt, greedy, incompetent people because they don't want change. They have fantastic lifestyles. A change to that means that they lose money and they would have to alter their lifestyles. They don't want that. So the people who are in charge of Serie A and were in charge of Italian football are not interested in making that change because they have a vested interest. They're lining their pockets. It's that simple. And that's why Italian football is so far behind.
00:52:20
Speaker
because if a change to the system means they would lose control and now they're sitting on a short thing. You think that these club owners who own a medium size or smaller clubs are upset over selling players to the Premier League for 30, 40, 50, 60 million euros? That's cash right into their pocket. They take a big cut out of it. Yeah, of course they do.
00:52:41
Speaker
They're in it to make money. They're happy with this. They don't give a shit about Italian football. They prepare to, they invest in it, of course, but they don't care about growing it to reach the EPL standards because that's not a safe bet.
00:52:57
Speaker
A safe bet is having the Premier League waltz in with 60 Premier League club waltzing in with 40 million in cash, right into your bank account. That's how they view it. In this capital gains case, absolutely. The FFP is definitely, you know, one of the key factors in this. But, you know, I don't I disagree with the idea that if, you know, it was if there was no FFP that suddenly, you know, I think if the financial fair play, there would be scandals because there's been so many scandals in Serie A in the past.
00:53:23
Speaker
And there are, and the Premier League is the richest league in the world. And as I've just said, that is the most scandalous league in the world is the Premier League. You just look at their own people running it. So, you know, but they have a marketing machine, the Premier League, that, you know, doesn't sweep stuff on the carpet and creates this great product that's all shiny and everybody believes is great. And, you know, that's why the Premier League sells its TV rights for
00:53:53
Speaker
for 2 billion and in Serie A only sells for 225 million in the season and dropping, you know? Yeah, the market, the market, well, yeah, but that's because also the Serie A does a lot of stupid clownish shit as well. Yes. But the point is, if you've got a bad product that's full of controversy and scandal, people don't get involved. They don't want to be part of the Serie A for that reason. In the Premier League, the Premier League had scandal after scandal like the Serie A, the cost, the value of the product would absolutely
00:54:22
Speaker
And the reason that the Premier League, the reason why the Serie A has a scandal after scandal after scandal is not because the Premier League sweeps it under the rug and Serie A doesn't do a good job of sweeping it under the rug. That's why I'm taking issue with. That is a big reason. No, it's not. It's not. It's the fact that you have every 10 to 15 years dating back to the last 40 years, it's one embarrassment after another.
00:54:45
Speaker
From what happened in the 80s with 1982 before the World Cup, all the way to today, this is what happens, because this is how it works in Italy. I'm not saying that there's no corruption in England. Of course there is.
00:55:01
Speaker
You don't see points deductions in the Premier League for teams that have traffickers as their owners? No, because the Premier League takes a very lenient approach to fit and proper in terms of owning a Premier League club. I mean, that's just how they work. They legalise it.
00:55:20
Speaker
They legalized the cause of that behavior. But you can't equate what's happened here with that. Yes, the principles might be the same. They're all corrupt, but it's not the same in the way that it's been actually handled up. And this is what I mean. I don't think I don't want to sit here and say and defend this kind of behavior because I think it's indefensible what they've done. But what Parati Chi and Anilio have done is essentially destroy Italian football for a generation now.
00:55:49
Speaker
they've destroyed. Yeah. The point is that people want to see fair across the broad people want to see everybody treated. And that's why I mean, and that's why I'm in favorated. Yeah. And the root cause frustrates area fans, you speak to any of the Serie A fan, they're all frustrated. Why a Serie A clubs even when it comes to FFP, and it comes to other team, why is Serie A, you know, both it's on its own, but also just because why is Serie A differently?
00:56:14
Speaker
because the revenue streams are so much bigger. No matter where you go, go up, go down, stand on one leg. The heart of the matter is the revenue streams. The Premier League's revenue streams are gargantuanly bigger than the Serie A. The Serie A is also responsible for that happening and becoming to this point. But this is where we are right now. And if you want to address this issue. La Liga has revenue stream is not that much bigger than Serie A. You don't see that.
00:56:44
Speaker
You don't see them relegating Barcelona, because they know without Barcelona, La Liga's finished forever. Yeah, but they have a different legal framework, and also they have a different way that they run it, and that's fine. We can criticise that, and we do. But again, there's no conspiracy here that we've got to keep them up. No, that's not how it works.
00:57:03
Speaker
If there is, please produce the evidence and let's go after them. But what I'm saying is I don't want to sit and do this moral relativism here because I think what they've done is they've ruined the seria. They have ruined Italian football. Every single one of them from top to bottom are corrupt individuals who have strangled this league to this point. And now the shit has hit the fan and it's flying.
00:57:22
Speaker
I agree. Listen, I'm not denying with anything you're saying. Of course they're all corrupt. I'm saying there's corruption everywhere, but it's in Italy. It's still everywhere. I'm not saying I don't have the perfect answer, Nima, how that we should deal with. I'm not saying we should sweep it under the carpet, even if it sounds like I am. I'm saying, you know,
00:57:39
Speaker
Italy, the way that Italy deals with it, is that they they deal with it in such a way that they destroy their
Juventus Fans' Reactions and Legal Battles
00:57:46
Speaker
league. And that's what we've done. Well, the reaction to that is that there are easily equally or worse scandals in other leagues, they don't destroy their league in the way that they handle it. You know, and that's, that's the point I'm making, you know, so what do we do? You know,
00:57:59
Speaker
No, I mean, for example, for example, I mean, this notion of which leads us nicely into Juve fans, you know, doing what they're doing. Again, I understand their frustration, but I but seriously, this.
00:58:12
Speaker
mass subscription. First of all, I don't even really trust those reports, because as far as I'm aware, these streaming companies don't exactly hand out that data. I don't know how anyone would know that 17,000 or 15,000 or 10,000 UVA fans in Puglia have canceled their Dazon subscriptions. It sounds incredibly...
00:58:36
Speaker
Yeah, no, but I mean, I wouldn't I don't even know how they even came up with that number and how would they would know, because that just sounds I don't trust that information at all. To me, it sounds like one of those things that has been planted in order to whip up even more crazy frenzy. And this is also a serial problem, the overreaction to this.
00:58:54
Speaker
This notion that Juventus are some sort of persecuted minority is laughable. They're not a persecuted minority. They are in no shape, size, or form a persecuted minority. They did this to themselves.
00:59:08
Speaker
There are reasons which explain why, but it doesn't absolve. And that's why I find this notion of let's all cancel. I think two things can be true at the same time. Two things can be true at the same time. Eventors can be guilty of capital gains, infringements, if you call it an infringement, because as we said before, it wasn't even illegal. But they can be guilty of capital infringements, which they are, and they've definitely
00:59:34
Speaker
done it, been doing it on a systematic industrial level, which no other club has. But again, that can be true. But at the same time, it can also be true that Juventus, as we sit here now, we can say as much as we want about what might or might not happen in the future in terms of other clubs being punished at the moment. And we can say as much as we want about how they got the evidence, they don't have evidence or whatever. At the same time, Juventus are the only ones being singled out.
00:59:59
Speaker
right now because they're the only ones that there's evidence against. I mean, again, like it's not why is there any evidence against, you know, because they're a publicly traded company. There is no conspiracy here, Carlo. Yeah, but no, no, there is no conspiracy. That's still not fair, because other teams have done it, whether you've got the evidence or not, you can see the evidence. Well, then prove it, then again, this is again, this is this notion that needs to be proven then. And then, yeah,
01:00:22
Speaker
Well, they have to go after the others. Let them wiretap all the others. Again, the police don't telegraph their punches. The police don't telegraph their punches. And the reason, again, I explained, it's not just something we can walk over. The fact that Juventus have been investigated is because they're a publicly traded company on the stock exchange. And that's market manipulation, which is very, very serious.
01:00:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's just that's how it works. I didn't invent the capital. I have to say, I mean, how it works, you know, I don't I don't blame Juventus fans for canceling the subscriptions. They feel they're being singled out and they feel, well, why should I pay for my subscription? And they can do what they want with their money. I'm not telling I find it. I find this. I'm just saying that looking looking in, I'm saying this
01:01:09
Speaker
this victim, this Jesus Christ dying on the cross mentality is pathetic. Your club isn't Jesus Christ.
01:01:17
Speaker
Trust me. But it has been singled out. Because it has taken the piss. There can be reasons and reasons why, but it has been singled out. Whatever the reason it's been singled out. So that's the way they look at it. They've been singled out. Whatever the reasons, they've been singled out for stuff that everyone's done. But they have taken it to a level which is bizarre. I personally agree with you legally that I think either
01:01:41
Speaker
Yeah, there's nothing I've said it five times in the month. They've done it to an industrial that no one and if they're if if there was a legal basis to punish in them. Well, there is. Again, they should be on the capital gains on the capital gains because you know, if there is a legal basis for punishing them for punishing them, they should be punished more than anyone else. No one's denying that. I don't think any Juventus fan unless they're an absolute idiot would deny that.
01:02:05
Speaker
The idea that only events has to be punished is laughable. And that's where they have to wait and see. And people need to understand that this is an investigation that's been going on for several years. We'll see what happens with everyone else. And we'll also see what evidence is available to everyone else.
01:02:21
Speaker
But there is no conspiracy as to why they wiretapped Juventus. It's because Juventus are a publicly traded company on the stock exchange, and market manipulation like that is very, very serious, and it's the same in every other country. You draw more attraction to yourself. If we're honest, it just goes to show how incredibly incompetent
01:02:40
Speaker
the former board were, to be perfectly honest, turning your anger to them and the nonsense that they did. But this applies to everyone. The laws, as it is, apply to everyone. The incompetence, I mean, it's unbelievable. He's a cartoon character. Yeah, he's actually going the more that comes out, he's actually coming down as one of the most incompetent sports and directors or ever ever that has ever been in football.
01:03:07
Speaker
And even at Tottenham, and it makes me laugh when you see Tottenham fans that think he's done a good job at Tottenham. He's done a decent job at Tottenham, but because he's had money to work with, he didn't have the same kind of money. He's had a lot of money to work with, and they're way off it. But anyway, we've done an hour, so we're not really going to have long. Well, what we'll do is we'll very quickly go through some of the
01:03:29
Speaker
some of the games from Sunday from the weekend and we'll leave some of the transfer topics that we were going to discuss for Thursday show. We were going to discuss about Zagnolo leaving Roma, we actually initially were going to discuss that on Thursday and pushed it back from Thursday. We'll discuss that this coming Thursday. Key we ought to join Arsenal, that will be official by
01:03:53
Speaker
by Thursday, so we'll discuss that, and we'll discuss that again, and Scrinya to leave Inter again. We'll discuss that on Thursday as well. What I want to just discuss now is... I think just to say on the Scrinya thing, I mean, Inter are playing Empoli tonight as we're recording this on a Monday, and that could be his last game in the Serie A. It's important to, you know, I think we will see what happens. I hope he stays until the
01:04:19
Speaker
End of season, yeah, so do I. I really hope so, at least giving it a shot. Well, we'll discuss the Scrinyar matter and the Kyivyar matter and the Zamiolo matter on Thursday. Yeah, yeah. Yes, so what we will do now is we'll just quickly go through the games. I mean, Juventus versus Atalanta, everyone. That was a fantastic game. A bit of an afterthought now. I mean, yeah, I mean, yes, it was a fantastic game to watch for the neutral. It did feel like an afterthought for Juventus fans.
01:04:47
Speaker
I mean, I thought Juventus were good in stages, in bursts, but again, we saw that they just can't maintain playing well for an entire game. They just haven't got consistency for an entire game. I thought they had a few good performances. Di Maria was really good. Milik, Fagioli. I thought Bremo did all right in this game, don't you think? Well, he did all right, but I mean, they conceded three goals. Yeah, but I mean, one of those goals is definitely Chesney's fault.
01:05:15
Speaker
Yeah, terrible. The first day I thought he made a terrible mistake for Kavada credit. Yeah, which no one really picked up on the week before. I thought that was really bad as well. So he's made two. For me, he's made two goal goal errors leading to goals in in in succession. But, you know, Juventus definitely played their part in a really good game. Then the negative is that the defense terrible. Again, I mean, I found it laughable kind of
01:05:40
Speaker
how everybody was going on about how this Juventus defence was like the best defence ever and everything because they had went eight conceded uh went didn't concede for eight games well they've now conceded eight goals in two matches so really I think that kind of that kind of yeah put that one to bed I think um but I mean I guess the biggest the biggest takeaway from this Juventus is because of that 15 point penalty
01:06:02
Speaker
they already needed something of a miracle to finish in the top four. That's assuming that they don't get another points penalty. I actually think right now, Juventus' focus is just to make sure they get enough points, they don't get relegated. I really think that. No, but seriously, because let me say, that's the thing, we don't know if it's a cumulative or what it is, and what I'm worried about is the wages issue.
01:06:30
Speaker
That's where I think they've really committed something. They did things that could really harm them. I personally still believe... If it becomes a sporting matter though, if it becomes a sporting matter, because it's a criminal matter at the moment. It's both. It's being investigated by the FIGC as well, because the FIGC are investigating that and the players involved could be penalized as well. That's really serious.
01:06:58
Speaker
I still think that Uwe will get, I think they'll get these 15 points back, if I'm perfectly honest. I think this will be appealed. I think these 15 points will be handed back to Uwe. I think they will get taken to town on the player wages and the different contracts and how much was paid to whom and God knows what, and the UEFA case. As for the criminal case, as I said from the start, I don't care.
Former Board's Mismanagement and Top Four Race
01:07:24
Speaker
I don't care. It's of no interest to me what happens to the fates of those idiots, and they are idiots, in my opinion. I can't stand any of them, and I despise them for what they've done to Italian football and Juventus, because Juventus are a big part of Italian football. Every single one of them. Cartoonish idiots. So as far as I'm concerned, give them life. I don't think that's going to happen, but I don't care.
01:07:44
Speaker
I only care about what happens in the sporting cases. And I think that the UEFA and the wages issue, that's where I think Juventus are going to be handed severe punishments in both of those instances. Yeah. Okay, right. At Celenta's point of view,
01:08:04
Speaker
Oh, what's going on? I mean, Gasparini got unleashed. I mean, we've spoken on this part about how Gasparini has been conservative. He's going back to a back four. He's trying to do something, you know, trying to build some sort of stability. But now it's good old Gasback. It's rock and roll football. He's gone back to ultra attacking and back his old ways. It's lovely to see. It's entertaining as hell.
01:08:32
Speaker
No, it's great. I mean, I love what I mean, look, man, again, another two goals. I mean, the first board, Disney mistake, board, all of a sudden out of nowhere. I mean, this guy was was done. I mean, but after land to try to sell him in the summer. Yeah, they were going to what they already started to try to try and sell him again ahead of the January transfer window. He stayed. And he's been absolutely magnificent. He was great in this game again.
01:08:56
Speaker
Gasparini is doing it again. He's building another team of exciting attacking team. They play a lot of great football. Hoyland wasn't so good in this game.
01:09:07
Speaker
Yeah, I've no doubt Kyoyo is going to become a top striker. Zapata, they should have cast in on them, shouldn't they? They should have cast in on them. They're right in the top four race now. No, they are. They don't have to say that. Yeah, they absolutely are. And I think that they will finish in the top four because, as I said, I think Juventus will
01:09:28
Speaker
I think Juventus are out of the top four. It all depends on what happens with Juventus, I think, if they get those 15 points deducted back. I think those 15 points they'll get back, but they'll definitely be deducted points for the other stuff, like for the player wages stuff. That's serious. I just want to let people know that is very serious. I don't want to talk about legal problems anymore.
01:09:53
Speaker
Tyler. Let's, I want to, let's, I mean, the Southern Italian Napoli. Napoli win again. I mean, pretty, not too much. You got to come back on the bench. 2-0. He obviously played a damage limitation game in this. Not really much to say on this game. It was pretty, pretty standard win. I think it was important. I think it was really important for Napoli to get back to winning ways after what happened midweek and, you know,
01:10:20
Speaker
against Cremonese where Spalletti made ten changes to the starting lineup, which was as we discussed on Thursday, at least five too many. But it was important for Napoli to go out there and give a decent performance in the sense that
01:10:35
Speaker
to kind of quash these worries of a choke job. I mean, Napoli's biggest enemies in this instance are themselves and their own mentality and fears and demons in their own head. And Spaletti's job right now is to keep their minds free from demons. And that was an important win against Sala-Netana to send those demons away.
01:10:58
Speaker
No, no, absolutely. It was a comfortable win and they didn't really risk anything just because they made one mistake towards the end and Mero made a great save from Piantec. But apart from that, it was pretty sharp. And Ladido Renzo scored a great goal. He scored a fantastic goal, but Agui Sal was really, really good, dominant again. Again, again. After his bad game against Inter, when he got dominated, he's been right back to his best again. Yeah. It was like a wake up call for him, wasn't it, that game?
01:11:21
Speaker
It's looking so good because even if Juventus do get those 15 points back and we assume that nothing happens, they don't get sporting punishment for the wage issue, even if we just assume that, they've still gained another two points on Juventus.
01:11:39
Speaker
It's been another good weekend for Napoli. They've won Juventus. Even with those 15 points, they'll be on 38. That's 12 points over Juventus. And then Milan, or is it Milan, an interest still to play. We're recording this on Monday. Interplay, Empoli, which they should win.
01:11:55
Speaker
But then Lazio and Milan go away to Lazio. That's a tough game. It's a very tough game. I know Lazio have got a marble area out, haven't they? But Milan could easily drop points again there. And then it's been another great weekend for Napoli.
01:12:10
Speaker
things are going well for them. And then Napoli, their next game, is against Roma, who will pick it up as well. Di Bala. Di Bala. Di Bala show. Again, Di Bala show. I mean, he's... Di Bala Abraham show. Yeah. Yeah. What a duo they are. I think it's almost a shoo-in now that Roma finish in the top four.
01:12:30
Speaker
I mean, I really think so. I think Atalanta... You said Atalanta... No, I said they're looking good too, but I want to... I think Roma are now with a... I think Roma are showing now. I think Mourinho is seeing this opening and he ain't letting it go. He's going to micromanage the shit out of this.
Napoli's Dominance and Juventus's UEFA Chances
01:12:50
Speaker
Well, as you stand, Roma are at one point off second place. I'll let them play the game more.
01:12:55
Speaker
No, I think everything I've predicted was before this entire explosion, an explosion that we've seen. I don't think Atalanta will finish in the top four. I think it's Roma. I think it's Roma Milan.
01:13:12
Speaker
uh it's it's not only if it's a loose grinnia i mean yeah who knows no but you're right you're absolutely right i mean if they don't replace skinning out and he leaves on a free or well he's not long on free but if they sell him and they don't replace him i mean i still think intro got too much firepower but you know it's definitely this top four race is definitely very very exciting we will let's discuss that more on again on thursday we're pushing everything back but because intranet milan will have played and then we can we can really discuss who we think is going to finish in the top four because
01:13:40
Speaker
with the Juventus situation as well. I will know more by then as well and we'll see what happens and so on. Well, yeah, I guess we might. So yeah, Di Bala, Di Bala, fantastic in this game.
01:13:55
Speaker
No, he was absolutely unplayable. When he again shows what a quality player he is when fit and fitness has not really been an issue this season, everything goes by him. Abraham and him are really unlocking their potential, their partnership, they're really enjoying their football, and they really have a chance now to finish in the top four.
01:14:19
Speaker
And I think they are probably, I have them favorites over Atalanta, because Atalanta, I feel like they're a little bit too inconsistent. Atalanta can score eight, and they can score three, but they can also concede in three, four. If this is the Atalanta we're seeing now, that's always been the problem with them. Well, Mourinho's Roma is much more stable, even though they've had their problems defensively as well.
01:14:46
Speaker
It's a long way to go. I don't want to make a prediction yet. Unless Juventus start winning again, and regardless with those 15 points added to that, I think Roma are the favourites right now. If those deductions are a fact that Juventus are going to be deducted, I think
01:15:09
Speaker
I mean, Juventus are not making it. I can't see Juventus making it. I honestly can't either. That is, they look, I mean, even if Allegri works his magic, they just don't, I mean, they look... No, it's too much. It's too much to make up. They can have Europa League as well. Yeah, it's not. It's too much. It's too much to make up. It would be hilarious if Juventus won the Europa League. Now we can't do the Champions League.
01:15:30
Speaker
And then UEFA would have to throw them out that way as well. They still won't be in the Champions League. UEFA are going to throw them out for effort. We know that. We know that.
Transfer Ban Speculation and Match Recaps
01:15:41
Speaker
Cheffering is not throwing away that opportunity. Not just that, but also I think they're going to be handed transfer bans as well.
01:15:49
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I think that's right. But turn the book. That's it. I like to still find a way to play the old players even even even even with the transfer. This is how much you hate. This is how this is how biased you are against you. But you hate Allegry more. Allegry. You hate Allegry more than UEFA. That just says it all.
01:16:08
Speaker
No, he'll find a way, trust me. He'll play the kit man, he'll play the team lady. They'll all get a game before the youngsters. Right, let's run through the other picture. So, Verona 2, Lecce, Neil. Importance banana. Verona 1. Lovely goal from Giddenshoek. Beautiful goal. Sampdoria, Neil, Udenezi won. Sampdoria had a lot of chances in the game. Udenezi finally ended that long. Is it 10 matches? They've gone 11 matches without a...
01:16:36
Speaker
without a win, they finally ended it and they actually, Udinese have actually, they're not far off Europe actually, they're only six points off Europe, they haven't won for like 10-11 games, so yeah that was important, late goal for them and then Monza won, Sasuolo won, I watched that game, that was a really really entertaining game. Yeah, Monza are a fun team to watch, Monza are really a fun team to watch, but look Verona's win, that was last chance saloon for
01:17:05
Speaker
for Verona. They're still in a bad position, but if they didn't have one that, we'll see. The relegation battle is going to be quite the interesting one.
01:17:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. We all know you love a relegation battle. It's fun. Right. So before we finish, Bologna Cremonese and Interversus emply playing on Monday, recording that before these games, and then Lazio Milan on Tuesday. And then we are... There's no Coppa Italia games this week, is there? No, no, no. It's next week. It's next week. It's next week. Yeah. And then we have the weekend calendar, which we'll discuss.
01:17:45
Speaker
We'll discuss that on Thursday. Right. Let's finish off with bad joke and prim face of the week. OK, right. I did have a prim face written down. I don't know where it's gone. Let's start with the bad joke. Well, you look for that for me. Lautaro's finished in the Supercoppa Italiana.
01:18:03
Speaker
Jekko's performance in the Supercoppa Italiana, Lukman's form, I mean, take your pick, really. There's so many, it's been quite a few beautiful goals as well. I mean, individual performances by several players of this last week. But I mean, for me, Lautaro's outside of the boot finish is just, oh, my days. Absolutely stunning.
01:18:36
Speaker
Yeah. Hm. Primface. Primface of the Week, I can't find. Yeah, we had one sent in to us from one of our Patreons, which I think is brilliant. It's a Brighton account, which is talking about Zaniolo, but with the face of Patrick Sheik.
Humor Segments and Press Conference Questions
01:19:00
Speaker
It says Brighton have made the £25 million offer for Niccolòs Aniolo services. And it's a photo of Patrick Schick in a Roma show. And then is one of the sentinels from Kunal Sony is basically where the English journalist, it's a clip from the Sky Sports Premier League channel, which is just the most
01:19:27
Speaker
ridiculously stupid questions that Pep Guardiola's been asked. And it's quite, quite comedy.
01:19:33
Speaker
Oh, yes, I saw that. That's fantastic. Yeah, we should share that if we've got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The one I had was, I can't remember, I did have it specifically from one journalist, but there's been a lot of people in the last day that have been saying that Arsenal this season are better than the Arsenal Invincibles. And that is just, again, another common
01:19:58
Speaker
common hallmark of the, of the prem face is that as soon as any, anyone's going well, uh, for however short amount of time it is, they're always compared to like the greatest ever. We always get it all the time. Um, you know, so, you know, Sterling scores against Iran, he's, he's better than Pele, um, you know, straight away. And, and, and we, it's always, they're just, the prem face is just obsessed with,
01:20:28
Speaker
with Insert English Player or Club.
Arsenal Debate: Invincibles Comparison
01:20:32
Speaker
is greater than insert, formerly great, legendary player club. It's all the time. And don't get me wrong, Arsenal have been fantastic this season, along with Napoli, probably the best team in Europe this season, in terms of domestically. They've been fantastic, great to watch. Arsenal are my English team, so I root them on the Premier League and they've been amazing. They've got a fantastic young team and they're doing brilliant and I hope they win the league.
01:21:02
Speaker
you know, to compare them to that, that invincibles that's now halfway halfway through the season, they're still half the season to go. And that invincibles team won the one won the league with without losing a game. And had I mean, just look at that Arsenal team. I mean, it's just unbelievable. Thierry Henry was probably the, you know, top three, if not the best player in the world at the time. And, you know, although all those players that they had Robert Perez and Patrick Vieira and
01:21:32
Speaker
And who else? They have Ljungberg and Sol Campbell. Yeah, I mean, just unbelievable, you know. So, I mean, yeah, that's my prim face. All the people that said that this team is better than me. No, I think that's a bit silly, to be honest. And they haven't even won anything yet. So let's chill. Let's chill. Yeah.
Wrap-up and Future Episodes
01:21:55
Speaker
right okay that's that's our um that's us for today um yeah very happy on uh yeah on the event this um penalty points penalty unfortunately we love to said again hey this is not what we want to talk about yeah we don't want to talk about this this
01:22:10
Speaker
This is, I don't want, I'd rather talk about the games, I'd rather talk about, we all would, but it's just... I mean, I'm hoping, I would like that this would be it, and we don't really have to talk about it, and we can just... No, but we will. We'll update here and there, but we had to detail it in length, just so everybody understands. Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah, because it was a complete, like, earthquake, what happened on Friday. It really was.
01:22:30
Speaker
But right, I mean, we'll be back. I mean, we've got an absolutely jam-packed Q&A pod for tomorrow, Tuesday. And we'll do the Thursday show as well as we already mentioned. But those are only for patrons. You can access that on patreon.com slash TIFB for $2.99, excluding VAT per month. And of course, if we'll do other extra stuff this week, you'll find everything there and you can always find it there.
01:22:57
Speaker
But please guys remember you guys everyone listening to this on Spotify and Apple podcasts, etc We really appreciate it really helps us when you give a thumbs up or like and five stars and leave a comment It really helps us grow. It really helps us in the algorithm So Yeah, that's all we have time for this episode We'll be back later in the week for patrons until next week for those of you are not patrons. Take care of each other and cha cha