Transcript
Speaker: What am I even screening for?
Speaker: What am I even asking?
Speaker: It really felt like dating a therapist and I had no idea what type of connection I was trying to make.
Speaker: Hi, everyone.
Speaker: Welcome to the Alchemy podcast.
Speaker: I'm your host, Dana Davis.
Speaker: The Alchemy podcast explores a happier and healthier future for all.
Speaker: Featuring conversations with thought leaders, scientists, and change makers, we'll explore topics at the intersection of individual wellness, social equity, and sustainability.
Speaker: Join us as we live to bridge the gap between personal, community, and planetary well-being.
Speaker: Let's dive in.
Speaker: Hi everyone.
Speaker: I'm thrilled to have here today with us Angel Wang, who is the head of growth at Anise Health.
Speaker: She leads partnerships, sales and community building programs.
Speaker: She's passionate about empowering underrepresented communities in their holistic health journey and holds an MBA from Harvard Business School
Speaker: and a BA from Columbia University.
Speaker: Prior to Anis, she worked at Meta, Twitter, TikTok, and the UNDP's Chief Digital Office and Gusto.
Speaker: I am really, really excited to have Angel here with us today.
Speaker: I've had a chance to play around with myself and Anis
Speaker: platform and so I think what they're doing is totally rad so welcome Angel.
Speaker: Thanks so much I'm so thrilled to be here.
Speaker: Yeah it's honestly really really fantastic to have you and I feel like already from meeting you once there's just so many good vibes so I'm stoked for this conversation but before we jump in can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your own words and your journey and just really how you got to where you are today?
Speaker: Completely.
Speaker: I think the narratives that shape how we describe our identity are so powerful.
Speaker: Like the description in the beginning was very much a LinkedIn description.
Speaker: But I think professional aside, I identify as a Michigander.
Speaker: I grew up in the Midwest.
Speaker: I'm the firstborn child of Chinese immigrants.
Speaker: And my name actually comes from the fact that my parents were forcibly separated for seven years.
Speaker: They weren't allowed to see each other.
Speaker: They did seven years of long distance.
Speaker: And when they finally were reunited, they felt so blessed to start a family that they named me Angel.
Speaker: And I think that, you know, has shaped a lot of my influence and my family connections.
Speaker: And then from the beginning, I studied political science at Columbia.
Speaker: I was super fascinated by structures of power.
Speaker: and the policies that define resource allocation.
Speaker: So my first job actually of undergrad was at a refugee camp off the coast of Turkey.
Speaker: I was at Karatepe Refugee Camp with over a thousand Syrian, Iraqi, and Afghani migrants.
Speaker: And while it was super humbling and I made a...
Speaker: there to always do mission-driven work, it felt to me that maybe businesses were a better vehicle for change.
Speaker: Hence my corporate journey.
Speaker: So like any new record into management consulting, and then did a tour through big tech, hearkening back to my political science interests.
Speaker: So was on Meta's elections integrity team, classifying political ads, was doing trust and safety at TikTok.
Speaker: And yeah, so.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: I love to hear that.
Speaker: I love to hear this like kind of full circle and, you know, all of these pieces and how it kind of brought you here to Anise today.
Speaker: But yeah, anything else that you want to share in terms of identity?
Speaker: I know that you and I had to have really great conversations about your Asian identity and kind of your own journey on mental health that kind of colored where you are now with Anise.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, growing up in the Midwest, I wasn't really aware of my Asian identity, for better or for worse.
Speaker: It wasn't until moving to New York City that all the conversations about racial identity kind of brought it to the forefront.
Speaker: And that's why I'm at Anissa Day is it's never too late to start that journey of exploration and understanding.
Speaker: I think some people kind of have different experiences at different points in their lives, but now is the right time for me to explore those intersectional identities.
Speaker: Amazing.
Speaker: And like in general, I know before we like get really deep into it, can you talk a little bit about what is Anise Health, first of all?
Speaker: I know that's the main project that you're working on today and kind of a big reason why we're having this conversation.
Speaker: But to start us off, what is Anise Health and what you all do?
Speaker: Yes, we are a culturally responsive health platform that integrative therapy, coaching, and integrated digital resources for underrepresented groups currently focusing on the Asian population.
Speaker: That's because the Asian population is two times more likely to experience symptoms of depression, stress, and anxiety, but three times less likely to seek care.
Speaker: So we really want to make it affordable for people of the Asian community.
Speaker: Amazing.
Speaker: Love that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think mental health, also from like my personal experience too, and my family and being half Asian, I think there's like so much to dive into and around like the cultural responsiveness of mental health.
Speaker: But in general, what do you think are some of like the challenges that we're facing in the mental health care system today, specifically for underrepresented communities?
Speaker: I think oftentimes mental health is separated from other aspects of holistic health.
Speaker: I mean, we are whole humans.
Speaker: And so every part of ourselves is deeply intertwined from our intellectual and most emotional, spiritual health.
Speaker: So I think there's a few challenges in the mental health care system.
Speaker: And there's multiple dimensions that you can look at it.
Speaker: One is the intersection between mental health and socioeconomic status.
Speaker: You take the Asian racial group.
Speaker: We're the only demographic with the highest wealth gap where the top 10 percent make 11 times more than the bottom 10 percent, according to the Pew Research Center.
Speaker: So people of Cambodian and Brunei descent live below the poverty line on average.
Speaker: And at the same time, 60 percent of Asians that currently reside in the U.S. were born in another country.
Speaker: So it means that many of us who identify as Asian are either immigrants or child of immigrants or have immigrant grandparents.
Speaker: And that very much affects the intergenerational trauma and the stealing of guilt or indebtedness that we have.
Speaker: So on top of that socioeconomic gap, there's also some challenges with how mindfulness in the U.S. is often stripped of spirituality and the connection with our earth.
Speaker: When mental health is talked about in the U.S., it's oftentimes like a hot yoga class with Taylor Swift
Speaker: Blaring in the background.
Speaker: But, you know, with ads telling us to defeat your depression or conquer your anxiety.
Speaker: And sometimes this can do a lot of damage because it puts a lot of pressure on us to speed through some of these emotions, which are actually strong signals about our values are being upheld or unbalanced.
Speaker: dishonored in some ways.
Speaker: And I also think there's some systematic and structural issues.
Speaker: We've spoken with a lot of insurance payers and companies who just don't recognize the need for specialized health care.
Speaker: We actually received some judging feedback from a pitch competition we were at, which advised us that if people of Asian descent weren't satisfied in the US, maybe their mental health care would be better if they returned to Asia where more people looked like them.
Speaker: So that is brutal.
Speaker: That is awful.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So so so many ways in which the system tells people of Asian descent that you aren't worthy of culturally sensitive care.
Speaker: Yeah, I that's I actually had never really thought about that, but even from my lived experience, I know I'd shared this with you before, but like I am in the process of looking for a new therapist and something that I was always challenged with was trying to find people that could understand just the different elements of who I am, whether it's my spiritual belief systems or like the fact that I am a daughter of an immigrant and how that has shaped my identity and my experiences growing up.
Speaker: And so I
Speaker: I had just shared with Angel before this, but I just had logged in and had a first experience with Anise and it was so pleasant.
Speaker: So I'm really excited to have you all here and sharing more about it.
Speaker: But can you explain as we're here a bit more about personalized holistic mental health?
Speaker: Like how is that different than the traditional traditional see here that we have in mental health space today?
Speaker: personalized holistic health at Anise means seeing a person as a whole human rather than a set of symptoms.
Speaker: And that starts on many different angles.
Speaker: One, it starts by recognizing that a person's cultural and racial context shapes their lived experience.
Speaker: And it means meeting people where they are at.
Speaker: So some trends that are more common in the Asian community that are often obscured in Eurocentric treatment models are things like
Speaker: medication management stigma, the fact that people of Asian descent are often resistant from using drugs.
Speaker: I personally was, I never used Tylenol until like high school.
Speaker: I remember if I had period cramps, my parents would just be like, it's part of your body and it's totally fine.
Speaker: I
Speaker: And that often means that as a psychiatrist, you know, medication management doses need to be recalibrated.
Speaker: People of Asian descent often get over or under medicated.
Speaker: So that's one thing.
Speaker: Another thing is recognizing that in Asian cultures, decisions are often made communally.
Speaker: It means that people often think about their parental response or their familial response when making individual decisions.
Speaker: Things like, will I bring shame upon my family for my own therapy use?
Speaker: Or we hear among college Asian students, will it impact my grades if the school somehow found out that I booked a counseling session?
Speaker: So I think that if providers can understand that cultural context, it then means tailoring recommendations in their treatment protocols that are more likely to succeed and ensure the patient doesn't drop out.
Speaker: And another example is I once had a provider who wasn't culturally sensitive and told me to set boundaries by cutting off relationships with my parents.
Speaker: and that felt like it conflicted with my value system so i was like i just met you 10 minutes ago and i've known my parents for my whole life why would i keep you and cut them yeah yeah you're like this thing feels a little backwards i feel like i should cut you and keep them yeah exactly i mean that's pretty amazing you guys have had such great successes i i know that i read online that you have seen a 97 completion rate of the first four sessions among clients compared to a
Speaker: 50% POC dropout after one session in more like traditional settings.
Speaker: That's really honestly incredible.
Speaker: Like those stats are great.
Speaker: Can you explain a bit further?
Speaker: You know, we talked about culturally responsive care quite a bit, but why is it like so important for individuals and how can we create like more equity in our mental health care services today?
Speaker: I know that you all obviously are a great tool, but in general, I think
Speaker: Yeah, talk to me a little more about this culturally responsive care.
Speaker: Our clinical care model is based off evidence-based research, which shows that ethnographic matching is not enough.
Speaker: And what that means is just matching an Asian provider with an Asian patient might help a little bit to reduce the education that the patient needs to provide the clinician, but it's not enough.
Speaker: And so what we do is we actually redesign the entire patient journey
Speaker: so that a patient can bring their entire self to the forefront.
Speaker: And that means also building on evidence, which shows that for the Asian community, incorporating skills building and action oriented techniques and actions is very helpful since the Asian population tends to be very goal motivated.
Speaker: So one of Anissa's differentiators is we integrate therapy and coaching where we
Speaker: The therapist will focus on childhood upbringing, psychoeducational analysis, and the coach will focus on bite-sized, skills-oriented techniques.
Speaker: And then the other thing is we address the other gap at less than 1% of patients used in psychiatric studies to establish the standard of care are Asian patients.
Speaker: And so if Asian patients aren't even used in the research studies to inform these modalities of treatment, oftentimes treatment plans can be misapplied.
Speaker: So that 97% completion rate is also from the fact that on the provider side, we upskill and reskill some of our clinicians to make up for the gap in culturally responsive training that they might have received in their master's programs or social work programs.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, every time you're talking about this, like culturally responsive care, I feel like this can be applied to not just the Asian community, because I feel like every identity has its own, you know, every culture has its own different thing that's needed, right?
Speaker: Like, have you guys ever thought about, like, expanding beyond just the Asian cohort?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: It's almost as if you are in the boardroom meetings with us.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: Everything you say is like, I mean, I have friends from all different types of cultural backgrounds, and I feel like every person deserves to be looked at in their full context, you know?
Speaker: And like right now, at least from my experience, it's really challenging.
Speaker: It's challenging to find someone that you can like.
Speaker: could try to connect with that matches you based off cultural context.
Speaker: And just learning about the therapy plus coaching, like that's amazing.
Speaker: You're so right.
Speaker: Like so many folks, including myself from Asian descent, tend to like to take some action against, you know, the work and the things that we're learning about ourselves.
Speaker: So really applying what you're learning in therapy into like taking true measurable action to drive change into your life is like such a new, different way of thinking.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: How do you guys think of that?
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker: I just resonate.
Speaker: It's the first time in my life where I'm like, I kind of want homework to give me some like three things I can work on in the next two weeks.
Speaker: I love the reading and the podcasts and everything.
Speaker: We fully agree that that therapeutic alliance is so critical for progress.
Speaker: Just staying with it, just setting up your routine of having a space to process your emotions is so healthy.
Speaker: And to your point about this culturally responsive playbook, scaling to other communities of color, we believe in that too because of
Speaker: intersectional identities.
Speaker: And what we mean by that, it's, you know, Asian plus your employment status, your relationship status, your sexual orientation, your physical location, your connection with, you know, the outdoors.
Speaker: There's just so many language abilities.
Speaker: So there's so many ways we really think about how culture can impact not just the Asian community, but in the future, our allies and other communities of color.
Speaker: Yeah, it's just like so – I will echo your boardroom.
Speaker: That's the first time.
Speaker: I really hope that you all can scale and make this also accessible to other demographics as well, because it's just such a cool, cool model that you all have that is so unique and different.
Speaker: But I think I would love to hear more about you.
Speaker: I know that you shared a little bit a little bit without me personally when we connected, but we all have these like intersectional identities.
Speaker: And in a previous podcast with Anu, which I know he introduced us, he shared a lot about what that means to our audience and what is an intersectional identity.
Speaker: But
Speaker: Can you share a little bit more, if you feel comfortable with it, more about who you are, your personal journey, navigating being a professional, launching a business, and cultural norms and expectations that you have being from an age in American descent?
Speaker: Completely.
Speaker: I think
Speaker: oftentimes living as a minority in a majority culture, that bicultural tension comes to the front.
Speaker: And what I mean from that is the Asian value system that I was grown up with often seems to clash with some of the American value systems that I run into either in the corporate workplace or at school.
Speaker: So
Speaker: I took all those jobs at the beginning because I was really risk averse.
Speaker: I wanted the brand.
Speaker: I wanted the stability.
Speaker: I wanted to make my parents proud.
Speaker: I absorbed my parents' value system.
Speaker: What they taught me was important.
Speaker: It became my own without me thinking critically about it.
Speaker: Things like stability and comfort and reducing certainty.
Speaker: But then once I went to business school, I went through a very dramatic change myself in a relationship status.
Speaker: So I actually haven't spoken very publicly about this, but
Speaker: I was in a long-term committed partnership with someone who I love dearly and was really hoping to spend a life with.
Speaker: We got very close to getting married, in fact.
Speaker: And when it came time to integrating our lives, we found that some of those core value systems, which amplified our relationship in the beginning, wasn't able to carry us through to another stage of our relationship.
Speaker: And through that process of breaking up and moving out, I took some time off from school.
Speaker: I started peeling back the layers of who I was and what were the factors that shaped me.
Speaker: Why was I holding on to certain things that were actually hurting me?
Speaker: I had in some ways tolerated problems.
Speaker: like burnout and suffering as a form of honor like if I don't you know work really hard and burn myself to the ground then maybe I'm not you know honoring my parents legacy so that forced me to kind of acknowledge the value the multiple competing value systems within me and then now I'm at a place through the help of my own therapist and just on this continuing learning journey about myself of
Speaker: acknowledging which parts of those value systems that want to continue upholding.
Speaker: And there's things that are more common in Chinese cultures that I love, the family orientation, the communal thinking.
Speaker: And then there's parts that I'm learning to let go of as well.
Speaker: I honestly could not resonate more with what you're saying specifically around kind of the expectations that we set for ourselves based off of like what our family kind of
Speaker: shared with us from their experience too, you know, especially your family of immigrants, like you want to go to school, you want to do best, you want to be secure, you want to have stability.
Speaker: And that all makes sense for the context in which I know for at least my family, like came to America with absolutely nothing.
Speaker: And similarly, I don't, I haven't really spoken publicly about this ever, but like, you know, my father was picking blueberries when he first immigrated and like, they lost literally everything when they came in.
Speaker: And so of course there are certain values that are established because they are necessary, right?
Speaker: It's almost like,
Speaker: you need those to then kind of propel and make a life in this new place.
Speaker: But as another generation coming in, it's like you have to figure out what are the things that you love and what are the things that we can let go of to create more space for us to kind of step into our own individual identity versus holding on to like historical context that might not serve us.
Speaker: That's so empowering.
Speaker: Thank you for entrusting me and sharing that with me.
Speaker: I was noticing already some discomfort even sharing some pieces about that.
Speaker: So I'm proud of both of us for pushing through being vulnerable.
Speaker: Yeah, I know.
Speaker: And even that in itself, I think like...
Speaker: vulnerability is not natural, you know, for at least me and my, in my cultural context, like having, you know, for some, some folks and some identities, it's easier to be like, you know, open and like really open.
Speaker: But I think there's an element of reservation that I have.
Speaker: And I often pull that back to just like my family upbringing and just like culturally, you know,
Speaker: how we've handled things, at least in my family.
Speaker: So yeah, it's, I think all of this is just so important and understanding the intersectional identity of people and where, who they are as whole individuals and being able to tailor mental health accordingly, because we are all so different.
Speaker: And it's like, we can't just all be in the same system, because it's not going to serve us all the same.
Speaker: I agree.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much, Angel.
Speaker: I want to kind of go back to what you're talking about a little bit more about like collective well-being.
Speaker: So something we're all about here at Alchemy is the intersection between personal community and planetary well-being and how all of these things are so deeply interconnected.
Speaker: And of course, mental health and our well-being from that perspective is really the start for us then be able to like transcend community.
Speaker: into other areas of well-being.
Speaker: But I'd love to hear from you, like, what do you think the role of this culturally responsive care is into our collective well-being as a society?
Speaker: Yeah, I think there's many layers to it.
Speaker: So one is applying culturally responsive care on an individual level.
Speaker: And that's...
Speaker: from small things like tuning into our body, listening to the signals that our body is giving us, even small things like I'm noticing some tension in my shoulders, my body's really stiff.
Speaker: Or even before this call, I was feeling a little bit of trapped energy and I just did a little dance for myself, let it go, even if it feels silly in the moment.
Speaker: So I think that one is just being mindful of how your body feels.
Speaker: And then I also want
Speaker: Leaning into our community, I think finding that sense of belonging, however you define community, is super important because culture is just a set of norms, beliefs, and shared values.
Speaker: And that culture can apply to many things.
Speaker: I live in San Francisco now.
Speaker: There's definitely a San Francisco culture.
Speaker: I also love to play tennis on the weekends and there's definitely a tennis culture, tennis community.
Speaker: So I think just embracing that there's so many types of communities that we can lean into and just thinking about who we are in those different types of contexts and finding places to belong to so we don't feel super alone.
Speaker: And then also on the community side, something I always loved is just thinking about how non-traditional medicines and practices impacted me.
Speaker: So my grandma is 91 years old.
Speaker: I finally got to see her again in China after three years after the pandemic.
Speaker: And I think one of the reasons why she lived to be 90 plus is because she practiced Tai Chi every single morning for over 40 years.
Speaker: And she taught that to herself.
Speaker: So I've learned a lot with her about qigong, the practice of cultivating energy.
Speaker: And I know in South Asian communities like Ayurveda and the connection between nutrition and health is really important.
Speaker: So I think culturally responsive care is really cool because even if you don't directly identify as part of a certain culture or community, there's still practices from that culture that we can learn from as well if we're just curious.
Speaker: Yes, yes.
Speaker: And I think even if there's just so much from, there's so much to unpack there, I think we're going to have so many other conversations, I'm sure, to go deeper into some of these topics that you're talking about.
Speaker: But I resonate a lot with a lot of the Southeast Asian cultural wellness practices.
Speaker: And I think there's like so much we can learn and glean from some of those even today and bringing into our day to day here.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: As we think about taking next steps, you know, I think, and this is hilarious, we're talking about taking action.
Speaker: Hilarious because that's definitely one of my interests.
Speaker: Whether it's mental health care or like here, I'm like, what can we do?
Speaker: How can we make this world a better place?
Speaker: But what are some things like a takeaway that our community can do, actively do?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: to help advance their personal mental health, mental well-being?
Speaker: So first, I would love to encourage everyone to think about the way that they value rest and recovery.
Speaker: At a need, we've been doing a lot of community events around burnout and also anxiety around the current macroeconomic environment, whether it's layoffs or even broader global events that are affecting our day-to-day.
Speaker: And what I hear often from attendees of our workshops is,
Speaker: I just need to push through it.
Speaker: I need to do more.
Speaker: I need to educate myself more.
Speaker: I need to show up more.
Speaker: I need to work harder so that I'm employed.
Speaker: And one thing our clinicians remind everyone is, are you devaluing or deprioritizing the rest and yourselves?
Speaker: Do you believe you are worthy of doing this?
Speaker: lease and recovery?
Speaker: Have you been trained that in a way holding on to that suffering is some sort of validation that you deserve either to be in this country or to have this job?
Speaker: What are your sources of comfort that we lean on to?
Speaker: I think the first action I would probably encourage everyone is mental reflection, which is we value ourselves and our rest as equally as we do productivity and performance.
Speaker: And I've seen
Speaker: Personally, I have witnessed how burnout and exhaustion, very critically injured people I love so dearly.
Speaker: And I just love everyone to give themselves permission to fail in some places, give ourselves permission to make mistakes, to accept who we are as fully flawed human beings and not try to be perfect or the standard of excellence that we have in our mind.
Speaker: Love that.
Speaker: And I just thinking about some other conversations that we might have around that as well.
Speaker: And so it's just like a perfect tee up for future things that I want to talk through because burnout is so real.
Speaker: And someone who's like a recovering perfectionist, I think I've really tried to also, um,
Speaker: Surrender, you know, and know that like not doing and what I mean by not doing is like not feeling like I have to work or be productive, but do things that fill my heart and they might not be deemed, quote unquote, you know, productive or career driving, but rather just fill my soul.
Speaker: Those are actually great to do and as well.
Speaker: And those can be my form of rest and recovery.
Speaker: So completely.
Speaker: I fully agree with that.
Speaker: It can be as easy as let me just
Speaker: for example, apply to a niece.
Speaker: Our intake form takes less than 10 minutes and we guarantee people are matched to recommended providers within two business days.
Speaker: So even just, you know, as you did, just see what's out there.
Speaker: I know when I was searching for a therapist, going on Psychology Today, scrolling through a directories of people, having no idea, like, what am I even screening for?
Speaker: What am I even asking?
Speaker: It really felt like dating a therapist and I had no idea what type of connection I was trying to make.
Speaker: But
Speaker: So I also think just like rather than this huge lofty goal of I need to find the perfect therapist within one week because I'm in a crisis mode now, breaking it down and being like, hey, I feel actually pretty good right now, but maybe I should build the skill sets and to know what type of therapist I will like or not like.
Speaker: And that can start by, you know, filling out an intake form on Anise Health's website.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I actually have done that exact thing where it's called psychology today.
Speaker: What did you do?
Speaker: Yeah, I went on there.
Speaker: This was probably months ago.
Speaker: And I'm like, I need a new therapist.
Speaker: I'm scrolling.
Speaker: And then like, all of a sudden, I'm in an abyss.
Speaker: And like, what am I even looking for?
Speaker: And then, you know, an hour passes.
Speaker: I'm like, I did absolutely nothing.
Speaker: I just scrolled and I have no idea what I'm looking for.
Speaker: But I know I need a therapist.
Speaker: And like, how do I even how do I go about dating these people?
Speaker: It's just a whole, it's a whole thing.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much, Angel, for coming today.
Speaker: I really enjoyed this conversation and I think our community will too.
Speaker: And there's so many great little nibbles in here that I'm sure others will enjoy.
Speaker: So thanks for your time.
Speaker: Really appreciate it.
Speaker: And thank you.
Speaker: Thanks for listening to the Alchemy podcast.
Speaker: If you enjoyed our conversation today, you can find more about the speaker in our show notes below.
Speaker: In order to build a global community committed to wellbeing for all, we need your help.
Speaker: So please rate and subscribe to whoever you're listening from.
Speaker: Finally, we cannot do this without the help of our amazing team.
Speaker: A huge thank you and shout out to Lindsay Todd, producer.
Speaker: All right, y'all have a lovely, lovely day.
