Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
S4:E16 The Amber Spyglass & His Dark Materials
60 Plays20 days ago
This week, we’re discussing The Amber Spyglass by Philip Pullman and the third and final season of His Dark Materials. As we wrap up this trilogy, we’re diving into the book, the adaptation, and all the big emotions, themes, and character moments that come with the final chapter of Lyra and Will’s story. From Dust to destiny to the emotional weight of saying goodbye to these characters, The Amber Spyglass gave us plenty to unpack.
Hosted by Crystal with co-hosts Keri and Lindsey.
Books & Adaptations Mentioned:
Listen to The Amber Spyglass on LibroFM with Our Affiliate Link!
Want to follow our entire journey through reading and watching His Dark Materials from the very beginning? Start here!
Question of the Episode:
- There are quite a few more related short stories and novellas set in this universe, which story do you want to see adapted if they made another limited series?
Want to keep up with all things Based on a Book? Head to our Beacons page linked above for everything in one place!
- 💌 Contact us directly via email
- 📱 Follow us on all our socials
- 🎧 Catch our latest episodes on YouTube and your favorite podcast platforms
- 📖 Submit a book-to-screen adaptation you want us to cover!
Intro/Outro Music - Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!)
License code: OAZT1MIMW1Y3V3HP
Thanks for listening to Based on a Book—see you in the next chapter!
Chapters:
(00:00) Introductions
(01:22) Book Ratings
(04:21) Series Recap & Book vs Series Breakdown
(50:26) Final Verdicts
(52:15) Question of the Episode
Recommended
Transcript
Introductions and Quirky Facts
00:00:08
Speaker
Based on a book, the podcast jumping from world to world with little concern for the consequences. I'm your host, Crystal, and the contents of my backpack would help us survive for about two weeks tops.
00:00:21
Speaker
I'm Lindsay, and I still think Metatron sounds like he should be fighting Optimus Prime. And I'm Carrie, and after three books, I still couldn't explain dust.
00:00:33
Speaker
Girl, I don't think anybody. Honestly, even Mary Malone was having a hard time
Exploring 'The Amber Spyglass'
00:00:37
Speaker
trying to explain it. And she was a scientist and a nun. So ah that's right, guys. This week, we're discussing The Amber Spyglass, which is the last book of Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy. And also the last season of the HBO BBC series.
00:00:55
Speaker
We covered the first two books in seasons previously, and we'll have those episodes linked in the show notes. This episode will contain spoilers for the entire series. So if you haven't read or watched this yet, this is your warning to go back and do so.
00:01:12
Speaker
His Dark Materials is a middle grade fantasy series centered around Lyra Belacroix and later Will Perry as they discover sinister plots, parallel worlds, other sentient beings, and the truths of the universe.
00:01:28
Speaker
I want to jump right into ratings. And I want to start with Lindsay this time. Lindsay, you rated The Golden Compass, the first book in the series, a 3.5, but The Subtle Knife a 2. With your new rating system, where did you land on The Amber Spyglass?
00:01:46
Speaker
So I actually rated this one and then went back and looked at my previous ratings to see how... how they compare. And this one I gave three and a half temptations. Ooh.
00:02:00
Speaker
Yep. I definitely liked this one a lot more than the subtle knife. This story was epic and it had so many gut wrenching moments and And I'll say i was hooked immediately from the beginning of this book. So I really liked this one.
00:02:17
Speaker
That's so great to hear. Carrie, you rated the Golden Compass a three and also went lower on the subtle knife, giving it a two and a half. How did you feel about this one? So with this one, i rated it three sacrifices.
00:02:36
Speaker
So even with the wrap up of the last book, my feelings on the book series as a whole kind of stayed the same. i just like I listened to the audio book, which is incredible.
00:02:49
Speaker
Still the same. Really like it from beginning to end. um But because I know how good the show is so far and I've experienced the show already. And we all know i am a very character driven reader.
00:03:10
Speaker
I think that this series lacks character depth that I think that the show brings so much. And I always hope for it in every book that I read in the series. Like I'm just looking for it.
00:03:26
Speaker
for specific characters and I just don't get it. Also, I feel like there is a lot of extra world building that doesn't feel necessary sometimes. But there were definitely like what Lindsay said, a lot of epic moments in this one that got me pretty emotional.
00:03:49
Speaker
Yeah, i can I can agree with that.
Ratings and Critiques
00:03:51
Speaker
In fact, that brings me to my rating. my The first book I rated a three and a half, the second a four. This one I give four dramatic partings because there were so many goodbyes in this book.
00:04:06
Speaker
that just tore at my heart. yeah I felt that each of the characters and the storylines that played a role in the first book circled back to this one. And I liked that.
00:04:16
Speaker
um The other only thing that holds me back from giving this a higher rating is some of the religious aspects of the story that felt unfinished or distracting, or I feel like they kind of muddied the plot of other parts. But we can get more into that later.
Recap and Predictions
00:04:31
Speaker
Right now, let's recap where we left off.
00:04:36
Speaker
The last we saw, Lyra and Will, Will had just met his father and then watched him be killed right in front of him. Lyra was kidnapped by her mother and a post-credit scene showed her dreaming of her dead friend Roger who was calling out to her. And who can forget Lord Asriel giving that speech to the sky and the angels appearing.
00:04:58
Speaker
These were some serious cliffhangers for sure. So I was super excited to get back into the story. This is the big red flag listeners.
00:05:09
Speaker
If you haven't watched season three yet or read The Amber Spyglass, you may want to stop here. We're about to cut through to all the spoilers. They're big spoilers. Big spoilers. Big spoilers.
00:05:24
Speaker
After the cliffhanger of season two, what were you guys hoping to see this season? Lindsay, what were you kind of hoping would pop up? More Asriel, but also i was so conflicted on whether or not I liked him.
00:05:40
Speaker
He was definitely all for the greater good, no matter what. And then i got more Asriel and yeah, it was.
00:05:52
Speaker
Are you happy about that? It was a lot. i wasn't. And then I was, and then I was sad. but but but That's fair. It was a rollercoaster ride. Carrie, what about you? What were you hoping for?
00:06:05
Speaker
i wanted some really good emotional payoff. Like when it comes to some type of finale, whether it's the show or the book, I wanted something gut-wrenching.
00:06:23
Speaker
And like when it's coming to like this crescendo in this series, I wanted something big. And I feel like You know, the book, I'm not so emotionally attached to the book.
00:06:38
Speaker
In the show, i freaking got that in the show. Yeah. 100% got you guys. You guys. Yeah.
00:06:48
Speaker
You guys. I cried every episode. Yeah. I cried at least once an episode. I'm not even joking. Like, that's just what I do now. Remember, i say this every single episode of this podcast. I noticed that when I listen back to these every single episode. I'm like, I cried. I cried. I cried.
00:07:07
Speaker
No joke. Cried every single episode of the show. but for Specifically for this last season. it was a big one. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, like Lindsay said, we wanted to see a little bit more of Asriel because he was basically absent for all of season two.
00:07:25
Speaker
um A lot of that had to do with COVID. However, when they were filming, remember, that was only a seven episode season instead of eight because COVID happened and they had to wrap filming quickly.
00:07:37
Speaker
and So we didn't get what was supposed to be a standalone, like kind of an Asriel centered episode. I was also very excited to see him more in this book in this season.
00:07:50
Speaker
And then also maybe not so excited. And then he opened his mouth. Man. Yeah. Again, with the men this season. what we yeah Season four of Based on a Book podcast is man bashing, but because all these men suck.
00:08:06
Speaker
They're so power hungry. Like so power hungry. That's like the theme of this season. I didn't realize we had such a theme going until about midseason. And then I went, wait a minute.
00:08:20
Speaker
What have we done? Yeah. But yeah, Asriel really fits the bill. a By the end of book two, the plot had begun to unravel a bit, creating a lot of new storylines for us to follow.
00:08:35
Speaker
By book three, we're a little all over the place. We have Asriel and his army, Mrs. Coulter and Lyra, Will and the Angels, Mary Malone and the Muleifas, York, Serafina, Father Gomez. We were just kind of bouncing around a lot.
00:08:52
Speaker
So do you feel like these storylines got woven back together in a satisfying way throughout this series, throughout this last season?
00:09:03
Speaker
or do you feel like there were some left undone? Let's start with Carrie on this one. yeah In book, i feel like there were... Times we were spent in specific areas of the story for too long. I kind of feel like this in the show too. Specifically, I'm thinking of when Lyra and Will are in the land of the dead.
00:09:30
Speaker
I thought we were there way too long. I was like, we need to move on from this place. Like, we need to get out of here. And like, I felt like Lyra and Will...
00:09:45
Speaker
Considering how important they are to this entire prophecy, they were doing a lot of side quests. They were doing a lot of side questing for the entire story that felt unnecessary to me.
00:10:01
Speaker
And
Character and World-Building Analysis
00:10:02
Speaker
it then made their finale in the entire plot feel so rushed, in my opinion.
00:10:13
Speaker
Lindsay, thoughts? ah What happened to the Gyptians? Yeah, what happened to the Gyptians? The Gyptians totally got left out entirely of the series. um But they are mentioned in the book that Serafina is going to go get the Gyptians because she thinks they can help.
00:10:33
Speaker
And that at the very end, they show up in the world where Will and Lyra are to help pick them up and to help get people back to their own worlds.
00:10:44
Speaker
But, you know, we we talked to Jon Fah at one point in the end of the book. um i think it was Jon Fah. And he's kind of like super excited to see Lyra. He says, you're changed, but I'm so glad to see you. You know, so like we get that in the book and they totally left that out of the series. that kind of broke my heart.
00:11:02
Speaker
Yeah. I was hoping that in the story we were going to be... bringing these different groups that we have seen before to come together for this war, basically. Right. But we were then... i really don't like when...
00:11:20
Speaker
fantasy series do this when they bring in completely new groups and characters in the last book of the series where it's like, okay, but like, why, why are we doing this right now? Yeah. I do like how the book handled Asriel's army, you know, mentioning some of the people that were part of the army that like, here's this general that we recruited from this world. And here's this other person we recruited from that world. but they're just kind of there. We don't need to know a lot about them. I I was,
00:11:54
Speaker
ah a little confused that the series spent so much time going into some of the like the general story or even ruta scotty who didn't really have a major storyline in the third book making her a major character in this third season yeah when we didn't get like the bears why are the bears on the move you know the armored bears are on the move we only really see yorick we don't get to understand. and And we don't know why they're on the move. We don't know why he's, you know, leaving ah his kingdom.
00:12:29
Speaker
Yeah. We don't see Serafina at all in the first few episodes. it's almost like she's just disappeared. But in the very beginning of the book, she's looking for Yorick to tell him about Lee Scoresby. And yeah she meets up with him saying like, you know, so like I feel like some parts of the story, the book were left out of the series and other parts brought in that weren't in the book.
00:12:54
Speaker
And I don't, I'm not saying that it was a a bad choice, but it was a weird choice. And I kind of missed the parts of the book that I loved. Yeah, I agree with that.
00:13:05
Speaker
But I will say watching the show, there was not a single point of view that I wasn't enjoying when I was watching it.
00:13:16
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. there was There have been shows when they do the multiple storylines and point of views where you're like, I don't care about this. I can't wait to get back to like this character. right you know like There have definitely been times whenever I've watched a show like that.
00:13:31
Speaker
But when I'm watching this, I don't care who I'm watching. Like, I'm actually join enjoying every single point of view that we're following. And I think that means that this is a really freaking good show. Even when we're watching The Magisterium, i really even like that point of view. Like, these are the bad guys. And because I think it's because it doesn't feel corny.
00:13:58
Speaker
Yeah. And it actually feels like kind of scary and a little realistic. So I think that means it's even when you're following the villains point of view, it's still really good.
00:14:12
Speaker
And I think that means it's a pretty freaking good show. And like just like what Lindsay said earlier about following Asriel's point of view, the fact that we get so much more um in the show versus the book, I think makes the show just really, really good. And, you know, my favorite character...
00:14:38
Speaker
My favorite freaking character. And you want to know what? And after this season, and
Character Development and Emotional Depth
00:14:44
Speaker
this finale, Mrs. Coulter has now become like one of my all time favorite characters. And, you know, like sometimes you hate her because you just can't. You literally don't know if she's a good or bad person. hmm.
00:14:58
Speaker
And I think that's why I love her so much. Like, is she evil? Is she doing like something for good? is she doing something for bad? And I think in the book, it just doesn't reflect that correctly for me. Like, it just doesn't do it very well, in my opinion. I i really have to remind myself, especially on this one, that these are middle grade books. yeah This show, i do not think is necessarily appropriate for middle grade age books.
00:15:29
Speaker
And I think that's a huge part of why we probably are enjoying the show so much is because we're the audience for the show and we are not the audience for the books.
00:15:40
Speaker
Yeah. We would have been 15, 20 years ago. Mm-hmm. 30 years ago in some cases. but But it's it's really – because these are these are these are books for children.
00:15:54
Speaker
and And this show just is not like multiple times I had to tell my kiddo like, hey, bud, mommy's going to watch this. Can you go play in your room? Because it I didn't want him to to hear or see some of the stuff on screen. And I think that that really plays into it. But that's what I want to that leads us into kind of my next little section here is I want to talk about what stood out for good or bad. The first thing that I want to talk about is the cast aging.
00:16:24
Speaker
In part because of COVID, there was a three-year gap between the ending of filming season one and the beginning of filming season three, right?
00:16:36
Speaker
So these characters who are supposed to be 12, 13 years twelve thirteen years old are aging quickly you even though they're not really supposed to. this is I don't think that the timeline in this book is meant to be three years.
00:16:53
Speaker
It's meant to be like now six months, I think. yeah So we do see some of the aging of the characters, but I think that played well to the storyline.
00:17:06
Speaker
Daphne Keene in particular, Lyra, looks more womanly in season three. They even kind of dress her more because she was kidnapped by her mother and her mother obviously is then providing the clothing. And she seems to be dressed more like Mrs. Coulter, dressed more like a woman. These are the clothing options that she has, right? And she's, you know, because part of this book is this coming of age, is this growing up,
00:17:38
Speaker
And watching her shift from those outfits that she was wearing when we first meet her in season one when she's running through Jordan College and and literally dressed like a child to this season being dressed as a woman.
00:17:54
Speaker
Yeah. I think that actually worked well and for the story. You know, I don't think they planned her actually growing up three years, but here we are. They had those flashback scenes of, ah or I guess from season one of her when she's younger. And I was like, oh my God. Yeah. So different. I know. i know. It's so crazy. i I like, honestly, with how the story goes and how we know that it goes in the end, I like that she's older because
00:18:29
Speaker
It is a coming of age, and I felt like that point at her age in the show, i liked it more than how it was in the book. In the book, I felt like it was a little weird.
00:18:42
Speaker
It didn't feel very real to me, right in my opinion, where because there's supposed to be this, quote, change of innocence um in the story, in her mindset, in like falling in love and things like that.
00:18:59
Speaker
it felt much more realistic and aligning with her age in the show than it did in the book. So i liked how that was in the show.
00:19:12
Speaker
i think that was reflected a lot better. Also, I thought it was kind of something that was really weird and I kept noticing. I couldn't stop talking about. I don't know what they were doing with her makeup. She had like dark eyeliner on the entire time. And I was like, girl, we are in the middle of a war. Why are you, why do you got a smoky eye?
00:19:34
Speaker
So I want to talk about that too. Cause that's the, for the good or bad, like, you know, I feel like when Lyra and Will were going from world to world for a little bit, um, after Will like gets Lyra back and,
00:19:51
Speaker
she had her like little bag it was like a not a full size but not a hiking backpack but maybe like a book bag right size
Visual Elements and Creature Depictions
00:20:00
Speaker
and will has a larger backpack looks like it was potentially like a day hike type backpack huh and yet somehow she changed her clothes like six times they had a bed roll with blankets in it they had food where is it yeah and and i'm over here going how how because i do like i love to hike i love being outside i love to camp no no there's no way she had that many outfits and i also don't think that like and when when did she pack her bag when did she pack her bag with all those outfits and I just kept thinking, like, I know Mrs. Coulter knew that people were coming for Lyra, but she was in her pajamas the whole time. And then when Will shows up to come rescue her, she magically has this really nice outfit on. It's like really nice sweater and some really nice pants. And I was like, man, I'm glad she changed her out of her pajamas for this. Right?
00:21:00
Speaker
I was just like, there were a few moments throughout the show that I went, how did she get And then like she had her hair done up real cute at one point. And I was like, who's got a hairbrush?
00:21:12
Speaker
Yeah. I'm like, didn't you just take a ah bath in the lake? Yeah. You got no frizz? I just kept thinking. I was like, they haven't brushed their teeth in like how long? I'm telling you.
00:21:25
Speaker
It was wild. Yeah. Not even realistic whatsoever. Yeah. No. It's like nothing about armor bears, none of that. no magical knives. It's the hygiene that's unrealistic to me.
00:21:38
Speaker
i mean, yeah. Yeah. I will say like the special some of the special effects, though, I really do like about this show. I don't think that it's like silly or stupid or anything. I think it's like actually really fun. Something I really love That's actually, I think, really well done is Will cutting into different worlds. Yes. Specifically when he's looking for a specific world and he is looking for it with the knife and you can see like the different slots of different worlds. I think that is a really nice touch and kind of like unique.
00:22:21
Speaker
I still, although it's school horribly sad, the demons when they... dissolve or or whatever turn back into dust or when the the the ghosts of the dead come into the real world and they just I just think that's done so well because we've seen so many movies where it's more like a poof snap you know or it just looks cheesy and this is not cheesy it's very beautiful and you know even like the angels And the angels wings, how we don't see them, but we do see them. And then we don't see them. And it's just so, I think, well done. But I want to talk about the the creatures, the Muleifas.
00:23:02
Speaker
Oh, yep. Way different in the show than they were in the book. And part of me wonders, is it because they just couldn't make them that way? Yeah, I actually read an article on this where they actually talked to the author, I believe. About it and got kind of like an approval, basically. Yeah.
00:23:25
Speaker
To not make them that way because I don't think that they could or they couldn't do it in a way that would look good. Yeah. They couldn't get it modeled right.
00:23:37
Speaker
Mm-hmm. You know, because there are so many different like...
Character Arcs and Emotional Impact
00:23:41
Speaker
program modeling programs for the way our bodies move the way four-legged creatures move the way you know oceanic creatures move or whatever it would have been a whole new model to build these diamond shaped creatures from the book well and you know how do you how do you and then they have to roll because they're on a wheel like how would you do that I was so curious to see them rolling around on these seed pods. So was i It was not what I pictured at all. It happened too quickly. i I felt like I missed it when it happened. I was like, wait a minute.
00:24:15
Speaker
Yeah. um But I thought that was pretty cool. And then the Galavespians, in the book, they ride on the drive they're the the the small people who um that are only as tall as a hand span that fly on dragonflies. I was so sad that we didn't have dragonflies. and legit i don't know how they would have created that a person riding on a dragonfly and have a real actor and we were missing a whole character and we're missing a whole character i can't think of his name i have a list actually they look like little like fairies they do kind of look a little like fairies but it's in in a way that like
00:25:01
Speaker
I don't know. it just And then like the the weird like machine wings that they had kind of had me feeling very... I don't know.
00:25:14
Speaker
it just... it i didn't hate it. i didn't hate it It just didn't... I thought that they were going to be less, like... And they have, like, the poison spurs or whatever. and so I thought it would be more fairy looking. And instead we get, like, weird haircut and...
00:25:32
Speaker
One of them had a bowl cut. Yeah. they where They look like, honestly, they they remind me of like the haircuts from Vulcans in Star Trek. That's exactly what I thought of, honestly. And and they're like super techie looking. and Yes. I thought there would be more like fairy night nature, you know, like blending into the scenery kind of, i don't know.
00:25:54
Speaker
Yeah. So that was... yeah I don't know if it's good or bad. It was just a change. Can I talk about something I really it can't stand yes in this?
00:26:06
Speaker
Please. i hated hated hated hated hated the separation between like Pan and Lyra. Like the fact that they had to separate.
00:26:20
Speaker
I hated that in the story. And I hated how It felt like in the book, it was very much like it had to be done due to like a prophecy, basically. and in the show, it felt like it had to be done because Lyra felt bad about something.
00:26:44
Speaker
And wanted to you know, find Roger and get him out from where he was because she kept having dreams about it. Right?
00:26:56
Speaker
I hated that scene so much because I felt like it made me personally really not like Lyra in that moment.
00:27:10
Speaker
I mean, I get it i feel like I feel like in the in the show, it was like she she just she had to go find Roger because she made a promise to Roger.
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah. In the book, it was very much more of a like, this is what the alethiometer is telling me what to do. Yeah. This is, you know, so like, i I feel like I can't go against this. And even like Pan kind of understood a little more why they were doing it. You know, think in the show, they really downplayed why they were doing it. And then later threw in that like, oh, the prophecy of her conquering death. And it was like, wait.
00:27:51
Speaker
Did you even mention that previously? Because I didn't remember that. Yeah, exactly. Like it made you as ah someone watching it. It made her feel- It was Lyra's choice. just Lyra being It almost made her feel selfish a little bit.
00:28:05
Speaker
Yeah. it Even though it we knew that's not exactly what it was. And even Pan says, you love Roger more than me. You're choosing him. And that's what it really felt like in the show, is that this was a choice she was making. yeah and I hated that.
00:28:22
Speaker
It was- done differently for sure yeah also can we talk about how asriel he's like all you know what i freaking hate that guy i literally hate that guy he literally doesn't care about lyra he's like oh she can go die i don't care like i literally he's like i do not care she could go fall in a hole and die and it'll be fine and i can move on with my life there's nothing special about her they think she's eve but she's not special Yeah, yeah exactly. and he's like thinking everyone is dumb and he's thinking Mrs. Coulter is stupid for thinking that and wanting to protect her and saying like crazy stuff to her too. He's like, you're...
00:29:08
Speaker
i can't believe like you would want to like do those things and like be act like a mother towards her and like all that stuff. It's like, okay, shut up guy. All right, be quiet. And so, and then he hears about her doing this incredible thing by getting all these people out of the land of the dead. And all of a sudden he wants to claim her as his daughter because he wants like the glory of the fact that that's his daughter. yeah Like literally through the whole series is not even like only calls her Lyra. Never even says my daughter. Yeah. Until suddenly she does something
00:29:43
Speaker
like super important that everybody notices and he's all like that's my daughter yeah and he's like we have to do this for lyra we have to do this for her also shut up he goes to visit yorick and he's like you renamed my daughter lyra silver tongue but like would never even refer to her as lyra balacqua Lyra Silvertongue, she was just Lyra. Just Lyra. I was hoping York would like bite his head off. i was like, can you just like kill this guy already? like I'm over him. We were all waiting for someone to kill Asriel. Yeah. We were all waiting for it. Because, man.
00:30:23
Speaker
And then he sacrificed himself. He sacrificed himself. And we're all supposed to feel like, like oh oh, good job, Asriel. About freaking time. yeah You're useful.
00:30:35
Speaker
i Let me tell you something. o Yeah. Let me tell you something. Yeah. I didn't give, I don't give two shits about freaking Asriel. All right. the But when Mrs. Coulter, I was like, what is she doing? Like, oh, I was like every single step that she does. I have no idea her motivations. I genuinely don't. And I think that's why she's so cool, because you don't know if she's taking the path of where she's trying to protect Lyra or if she's trying to go against her. Like, you do not know.
00:31:10
Speaker
And then all of a sudden it kind of clicks. We're like, OK, every single move she's making is to protect Lyra. Even if she is pretending like she's on the bad guy side or the good guy side.
00:31:22
Speaker
I mean, who knows what the good quote, good guys are. We don't even really know right because everyone is being power hungry and crazy. It's just one's really, really bad. And one is not as really, really bad. You know what i mean? Yeah.
00:31:36
Speaker
And so whenever she goes in to sacrifice herself, That, and she leaves her demon behind. Mm-hmm.
00:31:50
Speaker
And Lyra sees her demon and reaches out to her in the show. Yep. And it, like, goes to dust. Let me tell you something.
00:32:03
Speaker
Oh, sobbing. Falling. Yep. Sobbing. Yep. I got emotional for... Two scenes. I got emotional for two scenes. This one...
00:32:14
Speaker
And ah another one a little later on. Yeah, like that one me The very last scene, wasn't it? It was the very last scene that got you. Will and Lyra. On the bench? Yeah. No, it wasn't the bench. It was just them saying goodbye. i them saying goodbye got me, but then the bench got me too. The bench didn't get me. It was, no.
00:32:33
Speaker
No, I really, but one of the changes from the book is an added character. i don't know if she's, she's an expanded character. Sifania, the angel that is like one of,
00:32:48
Speaker
Asriel's generals, I guess. And her telling Mrs. Coulter that, you know, like, your strength is being able to block out the good parts of you.
00:33:02
Speaker
Like, I knew then, i was like, oh this scene is going to be amazing. Because it was good in the book. Like, her, you know, deceiving the Metatron. But her deceiving the Metatron in the show is just so well done.
00:33:20
Speaker
you know, playing him. And then, and and then honestly, like James McAvoy fighting himself. That was, that was good. That was good. That was shockingly good. i was like, this is going to be still, this is getting real good. that You know, I was waiting for it to be stupid. Yeah. And then when his demon comes in. Oh yeah.
00:33:39
Speaker
To help. Oh my God. Yeah. Let's talk about the demons for a minute though. There we get to see a lot more um, you know, through this series than we did. We hear about in the book, like we know everyone has them in the book, um but we actually get to see them
Literary References and Themes
00:33:56
Speaker
in the series. And I think they work them in really well, but I want to talk about father Gomez's spider demon. Yeah.
00:34:03
Speaker
I gotta make fun of myself here. Every time I saw his spider on his shoulder, I would be like, oh my god, there's a spider on you. Somebody smack it. Every time. He gave me the cream crawlies. I was just like, ooh, can you imagine? if my spider If my demon was a spider, I'd off myself. I couldn't stand it. Can you imagine that on you for, like, ever? Especially not knowing. You'd be like, oh god, and you flick it. I would accidentally kill my demon. It's me.
00:34:35
Speaker
Oh, God. It's a demon! Somebody else's bird demon just randomly swoops in and eats it. Yeah! Like, how does it know? i don't How does a bird know that that's a demon? Like, a regular bird know that that's a demon?
00:34:53
Speaker
i i don't I don't understand this. But I think it's really interesting that a lot of the Magisterium demons are, like, Sneakly creepy. Yeah, like little snakes and s skinks and lizards and spiders and beetles and bugs. Like, ew.
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah, they're creepy crawly things. Hate it Did any of you guys catch a lot of the other literary references in this book? Because there are different.
00:35:23
Speaker
Tons of inspiration and references to other works, other theories, just tons. The main ones was like um they' the quotes at the beginning of some of like the chapters and things like that.
00:35:42
Speaker
I was listening to the audiobook. I kept hearing the quotes and I was like, oh man, there hasn't been a Byron quote so far. And then all of a sudden there was a Byron quote. I knew it was coming. We have obviously like the harpies, so ah yeah we're getting into um mythology on this one.
00:36:01
Speaker
They kill God at one point, which is other literary reference. There's just so many. um One of my favorites, though, is the Malefas were inspired by the Wheelies from the Oz books.
00:36:14
Speaker
ah There's so many little bits and pieces um in names and in characters of a bajillion other literary works ah that were worked into the Amber Spyglass more so than any of the other books so I think that's really interesting that's one of the reasons this book in particular is like super highly rated compared to the the first two um and gets a lot you know higher reviews from literary you know guilds and stuff so let's talk about any other differences that we noticed between the book and the series was there anything else that kind of stood out to you um Carrie that kind of made you go wait that's different
00:36:59
Speaker
I a big one to me was bringing up Lee's death. I think it's interesting in the show, lee's death is never discussed.
00:37:13
Speaker
And then all of a sudden she's in the land of the dead and then sees Lee yeah in the land of the dead. think that's really weird. Did she even know when Lee died? No, I don't think she did. yeah I don't think she ever knew.
00:37:29
Speaker
and then she just sees him there. In the book, she is told by, I think she's told by York. York. Because you remember, and this was crazy too, because York goes and he finds out that Lee dies and he goes and eats his body. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.
00:37:50
Speaker
Yeah. That's choice. Yeah. Like, in like, that's like to yeah like as in like that's like to honour him Right. The pastor Bjorn have you know their own code of morals and ethics and and beliefs. um And I guess like sacrificing your body once it's done is a thing, i guess, or a gift. Because he in the book he says that like he accepted Lee's last gift.
00:38:24
Speaker
It's still weird to put in a middle grade book, but all right Yeah. Yeah, I was very surprised. was like, did i just read that correctly? i had to go back and double check. And then I noticed in the show that it was never told to her that he had died. And then when they're in the land of the dead, she hears him like yelling for her.
00:38:45
Speaker
And it's so excited to see him. Yeah. I don't know that I'd be excited to see anybody in the land of the day i'd be like, oh, when did you show up? Yeah. I would be like, uh, what are you doing here? Right. Why didn't we see, uh, Ma Costa's son? Like we knew he died. Yeah. True.
00:39:03
Speaker
That's true. There's a whole bunch of, you know, we could have scenes. i Any other major differences that, that kind of caught you off guard, Lindsay?
00:39:14
Speaker
I don't think so. The show just expands so much on what was in the book. And I was really looking forward to watching this season just so I could try to understand some things. Because I was still trying to understand what dust is. Yeah, what is dust? Right.
00:39:35
Speaker
What is dust? And I think it's trauma-wise. maybe what i was taught before that sin is bad dust is sin and that means dust is bad but dust is free will and free will is good so i was yeah i was like show i'm gonna need you to explain this to me because i don't get it the older the older you are the more dusty you are It's true. Thanks. It's true. is true. It's like once you pass like a specific point of innocence, then you're extra dusty. That's like literally what it is.
00:40:17
Speaker
Man, I know some real dusty bitches.
00:40:22
Speaker
i You know, I would sit here and tell you what dust is, but even I'm going, I don't know that I understand it either. It's, you know, it's sin, but it's also free will. And it's also um just sentience in general. It's, you know, i don't know.
00:40:38
Speaker
i don't know. Yeah. And also saying that it's sin is also like the Magisterians, like interpretation of. Right. So.
00:40:49
Speaker
So I don't it's what they think. Dust is. But then also Lyra is Eve. Yeah. And they want to kill Eve.
00:41:02
Speaker
And then there is Mary Malone, who is the serpent, who's going tempt Eve. But what is she tempting her to do or not do? I was i was confused. I'm going to be honest. I didn't understand Mary's role in the prophecy. Yeah, and also...
00:41:22
Speaker
Well, Mary... Was Mary tempting them by... Tempting Will and Lyra by telling her own story?
00:41:34
Speaker
Was that her tempting them? Like, telling her own story of how she was a nun and then stopped being a nun? And then found love. And then found love. Was that her tempting them? And then... They realize their feelings. Lyra and Will realize their feelings for each other, share a little kiss, and then all of a sudden everyone's dusty again.
00:41:59
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. I just explained the story. You did. You got it. Oh my gosh. you got it. I don't think Mary was meant to be like tempt, like in the way that like, come here, small child to my man full of candy. Not that kind of tempting. I think it was more like introduce them to the idea, introduce to the idea of something more. Right. Kind of show them a potential path.
00:42:27
Speaker
That was it. And and obviously it worked. So I don't, she didn't know what she was doing. I think that the tempt, the word tempt implies intent.
00:42:37
Speaker
Like, I am intending to tempt them. Mary was just stumbling along with everybody else. She was just doing what felt right. She was also portrayed as... it's Not she herself was portrayed as bad, but the temptation was going to be bad. Right. And I was like, not Mary. She's so good. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's kind of the point of some of the religious points of the book are that You know, just because someone says it's good or it's bad, like, doesn't necessarily make it good or bad.
00:43:16
Speaker
You have to determine what that is for you. You can't just go down this prescribed list of this is okay and that's not okay. You have to question it. You have to, you know, feel and make those decisions with your own heart. Because obviously, you know, it's like the angel says at one point in the in the book, and I don't remember the exact words, but he basically was like, how can these innocent children learning about love be a bad thing?
00:43:45
Speaker
yeah You know, and that's, we have to determine that for ourselves. We can't just let some, you know, religious dogma force good and evil down our throats. We we have to define that for ourselves.
Series Ending and Future Adaptations
00:43:58
Speaker
Yeah. We got real heavy there for a minute. yeah We did. I mean, this book is kind of heavy. It's just very middle pretty heavy. Middle grade. I know. And we're reading this as adults and I'm sitting here like, this is insane. Like, and I'm thinking that this is incredibly heavy. This is so complex. These themes are so complex.
00:44:22
Speaker
I can't even like, I feel like I'm just hitting the surface on these themes when I'm diving into it. And I'm sure like I was just like doing research on some of what other people thought of it And I'm like, wow, like the depth that this could go into that we could go into on this is insane. Yeah, absolutely.
00:44:46
Speaker
Absolutely. Well, ultimately, the ending of the book and the series are the same, even though we did take some different side quests. um Will and Lyra fulfill both prophecies, um the ending of death and the discovery of their love for each other.
00:45:06
Speaker
But they must each return to their own worlds forever. So obviously, this is not a happily ever after.
00:45:17
Speaker
mother But did you guys find this ending satisfying, Lindsay? it was It was hard, but it was it was pretty satisfying.
00:45:30
Speaker
Carrie? My hot take is that I thought that this finale was so good. Because I think that...
00:45:44
Speaker
finales don't want to be sad anymore. Like, I really feel that way because I think that, like, last, the final book or the final, you know, show episode in a series gets a lot of crap when it has a bittersweet ending or a sad ending like this. And I give a lot of respect to books that,
00:46:12
Speaker
And shows that don't have this happily ever after, but has like a bittersweet type situation where they're not running off into the sunset together. Yeah. so I think that something like this was so completely unexpected.
00:46:30
Speaker
It made me so emotional. These two are so young. Yeah. You know, they I'm not expecting them to be living happily ever after. Like, of course, I'd want to see them like going on all these adventures together. But this was such a different turn that I didn't see coming.
00:46:50
Speaker
And i it was painful. Like, i was sobbing. But I was like, kind of happy about it. I feel like it was such a good...
00:47:03
Speaker
kind of reminder of the again like what we just discussed the point of the story is that there is good and bad and there is right and wrong and we have to determine what those are for ourselves and will and lyra could have stayed together yep they could have stayed together but it would have meant closing the door that they opened from the land of the dead or it would have meant one of them did not live a very long life And they made the choice to, a like the you know in my mind, the right choice, the the not selfish choice, to make sure that each one of them got to live long, fulfilling lives in their own world, to make sure that the land of the dead still had an opening so that the dead didn't stay in purgatory forever. you know They made the hard choice
00:47:56
Speaker
But, you know, to do the right thing because they knew in their own hearts what the right thing was. Nobody had to tell them, you know, they had those options. Nobody told them you can't do that, you know.
00:48:09
Speaker
and so that kind of was a really good reflection of the book. This is not a romance, right? This is a fantasy series. And although there is a love story here, the happily ever after would not have fit.
00:48:24
Speaker
Mm-mm, mm-mm. it It really would have. And it's like you said, Carrie, a lot of shows, you know, they they feel like they have to have like this happily ever after finale.
00:48:36
Speaker
And I feel like they're doing a disservice to a lot of other genres by doing that. Yeah. Yeah. We want to see that in romance. We don't have to see that in romance. I would stand firm on that hill, but You know, we want to see it, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good ending. um And so I really am glad that they stuck with the ending in the book for the show.
00:49:02
Speaker
and then, of course, seeing them, you know, they agree to meet each other while they can't meet. But every midsummer um at midday, they'll each go sit on the the bench that is in each one of their worlds so that they can at least be together for an hour And seeing that kind of montage at the end of them getting older and going to so continue to sit on the bench. Bald. I... Bald. I knew it was coming too. When I read it in the book, I went, I bet this is what they're going to do. and I'm so glad they did.
00:49:34
Speaker
i like that we don't see them getting like really old doing that. Because I feel like it does leave a little bit to interpretation. And, you know, the possibility of like this open ending.
00:49:51
Speaker
Of them possibly seeing each other before that or being on like an adventure or something like that. Like they do get a little bit older, but not till like their death or something like that. Like that's what I was expecting in the show to do that because we know that the show didn't continue after this.
00:50:13
Speaker
but i do love the little like the little kind of epilogue statement they put at the end of the series about how they each you know lived long, fulfilling lives and that Lyra learned to read the alethiometer again and Will became a surgeon. And I think that was really sweet.
00:50:28
Speaker
Yeah. So final verdict time, guys. I want to know, um did you prefer the third book series? ah Or the the season three. or And then I also want your final verdict of the overall series, book versus show. Let's start with Lindsay.
00:50:46
Speaker
I'm going to go show for both ah for first versus the third book and then versus the entire series. I'm going to go show. They kept the momentum going the whole time. It was just always so good.
00:50:59
Speaker
so Carrie? Yeah, I have to totally agree with that. Definitely show. Lindsay said it perfectly. The momentum was insane. There was not a single episode where I wasn't looking away and it was just nonstop. So good.
00:51:18
Speaker
That's fair for me. I think for the third book, I actually like for the third book in series. I think I like the book a little bit better. Just because some of the storylines that I really loved are not in the show.
00:51:32
Speaker
um Although I did like the show a lot. So this is like a the the third book a little bit better than the show. But overall, I think the show is amazing. And I don't, if you were only going to either read or watch, I would say watch.
00:51:47
Speaker
It's, it's, it's really good. Yeah, it's oh, my gosh. like I don't even know like how I'm going be able to move on and watch something else like this again. but it's ah This is going to be hard to top.
00:52:01
Speaker
It really is. So that brings me to the quote of the episode or the question of the episode. We want to know. There are ah quite a few more related short stories and novellas set in this universe.
00:52:15
Speaker
Which story do want to see adapted if they maybe made you know another limited series? Lindsay? Having absolutely the bare minimum knowledge of these side stories.
00:52:33
Speaker
Like I have no idea really what the stories are about, but I think the book of dust would be cool because that would be a whole new trilogy and you get something before, during and after the original trilogy. so you get a little bit of something throughout.
00:52:48
Speaker
I think that'd be really cool. It really would. Carrie, what about you? I think mine's pretty obvious. Maybe. Mine's pretty obvious. i I have not read into too much of any of the extra stories or anything like that. But after like reviewing a what the all the other stories are,
00:53:07
Speaker
um I think this one's called The Collectors or something. Yes. About Mrs. Coulter's early life. Like, she's just so complex and such an interesting character to me. Even by the end of it, we still don't fully understand her relationship with her demon. We get, like, little tidbits in the show, really,
00:53:30
Speaker
of how that relationship works and sometimes we do get like this moment between her and her demon where she has like a kind of like open conversation him but i just i want so much more of this older but i also feel i will say this too i also feel like I kind of touched on this in our last episode. There is such thing as too much of a good thing. I feel like the adaptation, the way that it ended, i don't think we need anything else. Absolutely. sure Yeah. Absolutely. think it ended perfectly and we don't need anything else.
00:54:11
Speaker
That's why ah of the, of the, like, I haven't actually read any of these, but I've read little, little bits about each one. And I think I would like to see Once Upon a Time in the North.
00:54:23
Speaker
Because it doesn't really expand on the Lyra Pan story at all. And it's like you said, sometimes we don't need more of that story. It ended well. This is actually like a prequel about Lee Scoresby and some of his adventures and then how he meets Yorick.
00:54:43
Speaker
So I think that would be really kind of interesting to see. Just because i like the the bears. The armored bears are really cool. so They are cool. I thought it'd be fun. Yeah, that would be neat. Well, that wraps up our coverage of his dark
Series Conclusion and Next Coverage
00:54:59
Speaker
materials. We finished it. I can't believe we finished it. Oh, but wait, we still have another series to finish.
00:55:06
Speaker
Join us next week as we begin, begin, just begin our journey back to Pan Am. That's right. Lindsay is going to finish her series.
00:55:18
Speaker
It's going to take about a whole month. Not only are we going to finish the original Hunger Games trilogy with Mockingjay parts one and two, but we will also cover the Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes and Sunrise on the Reaping.
00:55:31
Speaker
I promise there will be tears. yes For updates on other things coming up, you can head over to our socials, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Blue Sky. We post a lot of extra content as well as our schedules. So you'll definitely want to check that out.
00:55:48
Speaker
But until then, remember the words of Serafina Pecla. We are all subject to the fates, but we must all act as if we are not or die of despair.
00:55:59
Speaker
We'll see you on the next chapter of Based on a Book.