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Ben Clymer - HODINKEE's Founder On His Porsche Zagato, A Graduation Patek, & What's Incoming
2.6k Plays1 year ago
Today’s guest is none other than Ben Clymer, Chairman & Founder of Hodinkee. As someone whose background and company need no introduction, I figured we could dive right into all things collecting, both watches and cars. See, Ben’s been around the block a few times and it’s easy to not get jaded. So what’s keeping Ben interested these days is what I really wanted to know. We talk about the grail Talking Watches guests and why it’s not just about being a collector, but having the passion to do so. Of course we dive into his passion for car collecting and his elusive, one of only nine, Porsche Zagato 356’s. We also talk about the coachbuilder themselves and why they are so sought after and important. A recent father of two, Ben’s collecting looks a tad bit different these days. Still chasing the same things for himself, but two little ones as well, all in good taste. Alright, let’s get to it. This is Ben Clymer, for Collectors Gene Radio.
Hodinkee - https://www.hodinkee.com/
Fair Game Golf - https://www.fairgamegolf.com/
Ben's Porsche 356 Zagato - https://www.wsj.com/articles/its-a-brand-new-porsche-from-1959-11580828549
Ben's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/benclymer/?hl=en
Talking Watches - https://www.hodinkee.com/packages/talking-watches
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Transcript
Building Meaningful Projects vs. Quick Profits
00:00:00
Speaker
a guy that i used to work with and he actually used to say the slow changes better than no change and i really believe that i think a lot of people say all well you know we don't work with rolex rolex is not lying or how can we have and done so and so it's like look like. We're not in this to flip this business to make a bunch of money where in this to build something that matters for the long term.
Introduction to Hodinkee and Ben Clymer
00:00:18
Speaker
And Houdini is 15 years old, right? I mean, like, our air quotes competitors that are out there now, with exception of Corona 24, are less than four years old, right? So, like, you've got guys that came into this space basically because of the COVID boom, and we were doing this in 2008. What's going on, everybody? And welcome to Collector's Gene Radio. This is all about diving into the nuances of collecting and ultimately finding out whether or not our guests have what we like to call the collector's gene.
00:00:46
Speaker
If you have the time, please subscribe and leave a review. It truly helps. Thanks a bunch for listening, and please enjoy today's guest on Collectors Gene Radio.
00:00:58
Speaker
Today's guest is none other than Ben Clymer, chairman and founder of Hodinkey. As someone whose background and company need no introduction, I figured we could dive right into all things collecting, both watches and cars. See, Ben's been around the block a few times and it's easy to not get jaded. So what's keeping Ben interested these days is what I really wanted to know.
Ben Clymer's Collecting Journey
00:01:21
Speaker
We talk about the Grail talking, watch his guests, and why it's not just about being a collector, but having the passion to do so. Of course, we dive into his passion for car collecting and his elusive, one of only nine, Porsche Zagato 356s. We also talk about the coach builder themselves and why they are so sought after and important, especially in the collector market. A recent father of two, Ben's collecting looks a tad bit different these days.
00:01:50
Speaker
still chasing the same things for himself, but two little ones as well, all in good taste. All right, let's get into it. This is Ben Clymer for Collector's Gene Radio. Ben Clymer, what an honor to have you on today. Thank you. That's very, very, very far too kind, but I appreciate that. Happy to be here.
00:02:10
Speaker
So we're gonna chat all things cars and watches, of course, today. So just to give everyone a little bit of taste of what's going on in your life today, what car's coming out of the stable and what's on the wrist? Believe it or not, nothing is on the wrist right now because I'm in my office and I'm just kind of like toiling away at a laptop. But in front of me, and this is not a plant in any way, I have a white gold Rolex GMT that I bought in 2015, my first modern Rolex. I have a white gold Speedmaster 3861 that I bought for my son when he was born this year.
00:02:39
Speaker
I have a 3940G, which was and is the first Patek I ever bought for myself. When I graduated from journalism school, my wife now wears it. And I have a 5170P Tiffany dial. That's probably my go-to in terms of my modern Pateks. So again, nothing on the wrist, but those four watches on my desk, truly. And car, I'm driving, I drive a Taycan cross-terismo as my daily car these days. Love it. Can't beat that. Can't beat that, for sure.
Hodinkee's Origin and Growth
00:03:10
Speaker
So your name and Hodinky are going to be no stranger to the listeners here and not to make you do any more storytelling of the brand. So I'll just give a little brief description. You started Hodinky as a hobby in the early days of the 2008 financial crisis.
00:03:23
Speaker
Things take off, and from there, with a lot of amazing accomplishments in between, you launched an e-commerce site. You became an online authorized dealer, which was completely unheard of at the time. Launched a series called Talking Watches with Alexi John Mayer, Kevin Hart, Adam Levine, and some of the Watchworld's biggest names like John Goldberger, who I've had on this podcast before.
00:03:45
Speaker
reference points with the mutual friend Eric Wind, which takes historical watches and references that have iterated over the last few decades. And you kind of talk through the evolution and you've obviously done a lot more, but this is all really culminated in what Hodinki is now really being a leader in the watch publication and e-commerce world.
00:04:05
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I appreciate that. I mean, that was a pretty tight synopsis on the last 15 years, but it's been an amazing journey. I mean, as you said, this was built out of passion and love and still is, and hard work for that matter. Still working very hard, much to my chagrin, and much to the disbelief of many of our readers, but still grinding away after 15 years.
00:04:27
Speaker
And it's been an amazing journey. I mean, I think, you know, the idea of discussing watches in this case in a way that felt really matter of fact and really
00:04:37
Speaker
I mean, a term that I guess I use for what I do at Hodinke and elsewhere at this point is almost like a middle-class mindset. And I say that lovingly, not begrudgingly at all. I came from a really middle-class background and certainly not impoverished anyway, but certainly not opulent anyway either. Both my parents were effectively public school teachers. And I found that that narrative and that understanding of things, of luxury things, in this case watches,
00:05:01
Speaker
resonated with people in a way that was really special.
Evolution of Luxury Watch Industry
00:05:07
Speaker
Luxury in 2008 was dominated by China.
00:05:12
Speaker
And I think a lot of listeners here would probably be surprised to hear that in many ways. Because a lot of the guys and gals that are into watches now are really quite young. They don't remember when Girot tourbillons with pave dials and rubies on the bezel and everything were the thing. The American watch consumer was incredibly uneducated. I mean, really, they were buying Rolex and that's it, Tag Heuer's and Longine and things like that.
00:05:38
Speaker
Which were, you know, kind of more mass market luxury. Now, everyone knows what Patek Philippe is, which, and R.A.P. I mean, people used to call Audemars Piguet Audemars Piguet. They thought the two brands were one and the same. That was not long ago. It still happens. Exactly. And so, you know, this kid from upstate New York, being myself, approaching it with a somewhat academic kind of mindset and but certainly more approachable mindset.
00:06:00
Speaker
in terms of storytelling and then putting it all online and broadcasting it out was, if I may say, I think really different for the time. And I think that's what really brought people to the site in the early days, which was simply just like a guy who loved the stuff, couldn't afford shit, but just loved it and had a different approach to what watches were at the time. Vintage watches. I mean, my God, vintage watches in 2008 were nothing. I mean, really, nobody covered them. Nobody cared at all.
00:06:26
Speaker
I used to go to auctions at an auction house called Antichorum, which is not even in business in the US anymore, it is in Switzerland. And it would be me and like three dealers. And that's it, you know, and it was like nobody cared at all. I mean, it was just a totally different world. And, you know, I don't want to be one of these like old guys, like kind of like yelling from my front porch at all the youngins out there, but they really have no idea how small of an industry this was when when he got started. Can imagine.
00:06:51
Speaker
So when you first started Houdini, what were you collecting back then versus what you're collecting now in terms of watches? Yeah, I wasn't collecting anything before I started because I had no money. You know, I mean, I was a kid. I was in my early 20s, you know, just trying to, you know, take my then girlfriend out to a nice meal every now and then buy a nice bottle of wine or some weed or something like that, you know, and that was it. There was no collecting at all. I had one nice watch that my grandfather had given me, which is the Omega Speedmaster that is kind of
00:07:21
Speaker
I would imagine, you know, no stranger to the audience here. And then believe it or not, I bought a Maurice Lacroix at Torneau on interest or with no interest rather of a payment plan. And that was about it. So I had one dress watch and one kind of sports watch and that was it. But collecting was not even a word that I could conceive of at that time. It was really just understanding stuff. And so I approached the site and I approached my own collecting as wanting to understand everything in place of wanting to buy everything because buying everything was impossible.
00:07:50
Speaker
I couldn't afford anything. So the idea of owning more than one of anything was impossible to conceive of. So really, there was no collecting. There was just hoping to buy stuff here and there and be able to pay my rent. And if I had to go to the hospital or to the doctor, then I could pay for it. That's about it. Love it.
00:08:10
Speaker
Vintage, Universal, Genev, and Longine are two brands in categories that you have on record express fondness for. But do you ever hit a point with some of these brands in terms of collecting where you're satisfied with the ones that you've collected from those brands? Or does the search always continue?
Phases of Watch Collecting Passion
00:08:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, everything works in cycles. And I think I've been doing this a long time and my exposure to watches has been immense. I mean, really, it was hyper exposure, overexposure for a long time. Right, you've seen everything.
00:08:39
Speaker
Yeah, just about or at least been around a lot of it. And like others might be with cars or clothes or whatever, you kind of get jaded at a certain point. And I would say from 2008 to 2021, I was pretty jaded. I'm sorry, 2018 to 2021, so about three or four years. I was just like, man, I just don't care. I really just don't care. I cared about my business and that's what kind of got me going.
00:09:05
Speaker
but the idea of chasing watches, vintage watches in particular, which is really a savage industry at best, was just not compelling to me. I just needed to take a break from that side of things. I went off Instagram for three solid years, three full years, which is great for my mental health and physical health, and came back with fresh mind, fresh eyes, fresh heart when I was able to step down as CEO and approach the business from a much more
00:09:34
Speaker
enjoyable perspective, which is where I am today, which is I'm the chairman of the business. I still work incredibly hard for Houdini. I'm in content. I'm on content. I'm making this happen all day, every day, but it's not running the business and running a business is not fun unless you're one of those people that loves it. I am not. I love running a small business and building a business, but running one is a different thing completely. But having said that, like I've circled around and started buying some watches that I love and had to sell in the early days.
00:10:04
Speaker
I just bought a 14270 Blackout Explorer, which was my first Rolex ever. I was looking at a 6240, which I've owned three or four of and currently don't own anymore. So, you know, some vintage Rolex here and there, some vintage Patek that I've owned and sold. I'm into some independent stuff. I'm into Lange, Lange rather, and Patek, Acrivia of course. You know, there's a lot of stuff that I'm into, but in terms of, you know, the stuff that I've owned a lot of,
00:10:30
Speaker
I mean, I've owned seven Paul Newman's, you know, and it's just like, do I, do I own any now? I do not. And it's just like, okay, if somebody came to me with an original owner, 6239 box papers, like dead mint, would I, would I consider it? Yeah, of course I would. But the pricing is another thing. And again, I don't want to sound like some old fart here. But you know, the idea of paying three plus for a 6239 Paul Newman is insane. I mean, I have very clear recollections of when they were 85.
00:10:57
Speaker
I have even more clear recollections of when they were 125 because that's what I paid for the one that I had. It's just hard for me to justify that in a life where I have children and a mortgage and other things that go on. But to be clear, I still buy a lot of watches. It's just things that excite me now versus the things that excited me 10 years ago.
00:11:19
Speaker
Do you ever click iterations of the same watch, or are you kind of a one of each type? No, I'm a total completionist. At one point, I had six 2526s. I had three different references of Paul Newman's at one point. 623.9, 624.1, 6263, mark one.
00:11:37
Speaker
I had double Swiss underline black. I had double Swiss non-underline white. I had 6240 small Daytona, like kind of normal one. I had a 6240 oyster, the small oyster. Yeah, no, I am very much like a completionist and I do like to collect in sets.
00:11:55
Speaker
So yeah i've you know yes one hundred percent and you know that's not to say those sets always last a long time with the idea of being able to collect in themes and when you buy things that are. Similar in terms of age and stylistically etc such as like a sixty three nine double Swiss underline which was like a nine two three cereal.
00:12:14
Speaker
And then you have a six to three nine double switch non-underline, which is nine to two serial. You begin to realize that, okay, like the non-underlines are actually earlier than the underlines. And that becomes really fun and engaging for me. But yeah, I do collect in sets for sure.
Hodinkee's Collaborations and Projects
00:12:30
Speaker
You've talked a lot about where you're at in your collecting now in terms of, you know, the nonsense that comes with vintage watches, like just buy from the original owner if you can, and you can afford it. And that's kind of where you're at. And I'm curious because, you know, a lot of vintage watches hold attributes like lacquer or enamel in which they can certainly crack over time if they haven't already. Is that an attribute that you stay away from, even if it's from the original owner or not?
00:12:59
Speaker
I don't think so. I mean, like I, look, I mean, I'm, I'm cognizant, you know, it's so funny. It's like, I mean, I can tell you, like I was offered a really nice 6240, uh, that had some loom loss at the nine o'clock hour mark, minute marker or hour marker. Uh, I, it had some loom loss in the hands, et cetera. And I was like, oh man, like I don't, like it was good from a dealer. And I was just like, it's just like from a dealer. I wanted to be perfect, you know, because I don't know when this was a good dealer, but I don't know what happened to that watch.
00:13:28
Speaker
If you if that watch had come from the original owner of that watch, I probably would have bought it because I would have believed it, you know, the rest of the watch was air quotes on Polish had a perfect so and so the bezel is perfect, blah, blah, blah. And so for me, it's just about it's the full package, you know, buying from a dealer is totally cool. And I do it all the time.
00:13:45
Speaker
But with that i do have a higher expectation of what it should be and then from buying from original i'm much more susceptible or much more open to to buying things i don't wanna say lesser quality but quality that is organic and more earnest.
00:14:00
Speaker
in my eyes from an original owner because i know they're not like. Most times a private has no idea how to manipulate a watch to make it more valuable with dealers they do and that i've seen that even from the air quotes good guys i see that all the time and that that just has always run me the wrong way to the point like we're vintage watches again like i just.
00:14:19
Speaker
It's not fun. It's not fun for for a lot of people. And it's just like, you know, some of my favorite watches, twenty five, twenty six, six, two, three, nine, the watch like universals, things like you mentioning, I adore as objects. But I don't feel the need to spend my money on them now when I have personal relationships with brand representatives at brands that I love and can get stuff that is made for me or allocated to me. You buy at a retail, you know, it's good. It's your watch.
00:14:47
Speaker
I think the other thing of buying vintage watches to celebrate life moments, I've always found strange. It's just like, I want a watch to be mine if it's going to celebrate the birth of a child or a wedding or whatever. I think that's a really, really odd habit that has been pushed by dealers completely. To buy somebody else's old thing to celebrate your life moment feels really odd. But look, I'm not going to knock people that have done it, of course. It just doesn't connect with me at all. It really doesn't.
00:15:15
Speaker
And so I don't want to say I'm a modern watch guy. As I said, the most recent watch I bought was a 30-year-old Rolex. But I'd say more watches than not these days I'm buying are modern.
00:15:26
Speaker
So collecting in general is obviously a very broad term. It can be interpreted and is interpreted differently by each individual. But one of the ongoing projects that you have at Hodinke are the limited editions with some of the biggest names in the watch industry. In fact, there's probably very few that you haven't worked with at this point. There's a few, but yeah, we're doing okay. You're doing pretty darn good.
00:15:49
Speaker
What are your thoughts on the idea that everyday consumers like you and I collect the collaborations that you've done with other brands? I mean humbling for sure. You know, there's a lot of guys out there, you know, the John Mayors of the world that are like objectively special, right? Like they're, they're talented, like immense, obvious talent. When you see John on stage, he's a different guy, right? Different guy. Different guy for sure. And a million was.
00:16:16
Speaker
There are other guys out there that are less obvious than a mayor, but more obvious than me that are there really special and talented as well. You know, I have always prided myself on, you know, kind of like really, really listening more than speaking. And if you see me on Instagram or whatever, like I, you know, I post, but I'm not like, I'm not projecting my beliefs onto other people verbally.
00:16:38
Speaker
Whereas other people do, you know, people are on YouTube screaming about stuff and people on Instagram saying they're going to slap people and all that screaming. Yeah, that's just that's just not me. It never was. It never will be like the way that I communicate. My belief system is through objects and through what we do with Houdini. And so you've seen a lot of what I believe in in the product that that we've created over the years, whether it would be the stainless steel corn to bash Vacheron, which is one of my favorites.
00:17:03
Speaker
Which back then, you have to remember nobody was doing those type of high-end complications in steel. I mean, nobody, including Vacheron for that matter.
00:17:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, to even get Vacheron to agree to do that and steal is pretty impressive. That was a long time coming for sure. The Omega stuff, the IWC stuff, the two Lykas that we've done, the Hermes products that we've done, you know, in many ways, like I think one of my greatest skill sets or one of my greatest gifts is the ability to work within incredibly rigid confines of traditional luxury Hermes as an archetype of that or Lyka or whoever. And
00:17:36
Speaker
I wouldn't say convincing the top management or convincing the brand that there's value in doing something different and outside the box, but working within their ways while pushing things. And I think it's really easy to say, oh, they just changed the dial color. But people who say that have never worked for one of these companies, you have no idea how challenging it is and how much validation is required to get Leica to make a camera that was inspired by your old Rolex or whatever. We put the name of a air quotes watch blog on a Leica, an M10 or a Q2.
00:18:07
Speaker
And I think, you know, we're very good at kind of like respecting those that came before and you never hear her speak ill of any other.
00:18:15
Speaker
people in the watch space or outside while pushing things forward and then a guy that i used to work with and he actually used to say that slow change is better than no change and i really believe in that i think a lot of people say all well you know we don't work with rolex rolex is not lying or how can we haven't done so and so it's like look like. We're not in this to flip this business to make a bunch of money where in this to build something that matters for the long term.
00:18:37
Speaker
And he's fifteen years old right i mean like our air quotes competitors that are out there now with the exception of krona twenty four or less than four years old right so like you got guys that came into the space back and basically because of the covid boom and we were doing this in two thousand eight you know so it's just it's a really different mindset of how we approach this industry and how we approach everything like you know
00:18:58
Speaker
Things ebb and flow. We work with brands this year, not next year, but we think in five-year schemes. And I think the best brands in the world also think in that type of macro-level schemes. You mentioned John Mayer, and for me, talking watches is the easiest way to get my non-watch friends into watches, especially John Mayer videos and people that they can also relate to.
Future Guests and Watch Stories
00:19:22
Speaker
And then they're like, oh, I get it now.
00:19:25
Speaker
And I'm sure you get asked this a lot, but is there a dream talking watches guest? I mean, I'm sure you probably never even fathomed some of the guests that you've had on to this day, but I mean, I would have to assume, you know, like a Clapton is a dream guest and that sort of stuff. You know, in many ways Clapton was the first John Mayer and I, you know, John has been, you know, and he would admit certainly like, you know, really influenced by Eric Clapton. How could you not be if you're in that space, you know, from the Visvim stuff to the Rolex and Patek to obviously music.
00:19:55
Speaker
Clapton would be up there for sure. I've never met him. We know many of the same people. Never met him.
00:20:02
Speaker
You know, I don't know how into watches he is these days, you know, I mean, he was incredibly into watches, you know, but that was 20 years ago. And I think like that, that's something to to remember that, like, you know, I mean, look, we're very blessed in that there's not a single guest on Talking Watch that we've ever paid or given anything to to appear on the show. They want to do it. But Clapton's an older guy now. And I think it had Houdini existed in 2020. I'm sorry, in 2001, 2003. Yeah, I think it's really likely he would have been on the show.
00:20:30
Speaker
I think now he's older, we're older. I think just the windows didn't kind of overlap, so to speak. Jay-Z, who I have met, is somebody that we would love to see just because his influence on everything is just so grand. He would be a dream for sure. I'm the one that you can't not look up to. Absolutely. Absolutely. I was talking with somebody the other day and it's like,
00:20:52
Speaker
Grandmaster chime protect is objectively a challenging looking watch you know from the static point of view it's a very diplomatic way to put it yeah exactly but you know i love the guys of tech so you know i want to hold these guys and i regard it's challenging looking.
00:21:08
Speaker
There's that photo of him that was taken and we posted it, so do others. He makes it look fucking amazing, you know? And it's like, only Jay-Z could do that. Like, with respect to my friends, John and Ed and people like that, like, I don't think they could do that. You know, Jay-Z in a tuxedo at the Grammys, wherever it was with the Grandmaster Chime, like, that is insane.
00:21:25
Speaker
like that is so cool and you know we saw him get that six two i'm sorry six two six three tiffany recently he's buying these five thousand fours like really good stuff and i think that the really compelling thing about him now versus kinda what he was into in the early days is that he's buying like real best in breed stuff as he should he deserves that type of stuff. Absolutely yeah i think jay-z would be.
00:21:50
Speaker
Really on the same level as a lot of the other guests that you've had on and, you know, fingers crossed we get to see it one day for sure. Yeah, you never know. And like and to be clear, like we are not talking to him like this is not a plan for something that will come later, although hopefully it will. But, you know, look, there's other guys out there. There's, you know, he just the one with Adam Levine, which is great. Mark Wahlberg has an insane collection. I mean, insane.
00:22:11
Speaker
That would be neat. A lot of diamonds in there. Yeah, yeah. But he, man, is he into it. He loves it real way. But yeah, I mean, look, Jay-Z, Clapton, those... Because the thing is, I know that those guys really like it. There's a lot of guys out there that have a lot of great watches, but I don't know that they really like it, if that makes any sense. And so I think with Jay and Clapton, it would be like an actual good conversation as well.
00:22:38
Speaker
Yeah, knowledgeable to and kind of be able to to go punch for punch, I guess you could say. Yeah, and they've been rounded a long enough, you know, a lot of the guys that I meet socially that consider themselves great collectors because they have a 5711 and a 5167 and a fucking Daytona or whatever, like,
00:22:55
Speaker
They've been buying these watches for three years, like since COVID. It's just like they don't know what they don't know. And there's nothing wrong with that. You got to start somewhere. But Jay-Z's been buying APs since 2002. Think about that. What were you doing in 2002? I was doing nothing. I can tell you that. So the fact that in Pharrell, actually Pharrell would be a great one as well. I'd love to talk to him about it. Because Pharrell was buying APs, I think, in 2002, 2001. So those guys were doing this stuff so, so early in the grand scheme of things. It's kind of amazing.
00:23:25
Speaker
Let's talk about the idea of selling watches from the collection.
Impact of Family on Collecting Decisions
00:23:29
Speaker
You know, it's never easy, but sometimes you just have to do it. So for you, do you sell when you're just not wearing something or is it strictly when you're looking to make room for something incoming?
00:23:42
Speaker
It's a little bit of both. I mean, look, as the audience may or may not know, I'm a married man, father of two. And that changes your life precipitously instantly. And so we're not selling our watches to pair mortgage or anything like that, but there is a reprioritization of your assets. And I don't think anybody here would be surprised to learn that I was pretty fucking heavy on watches as a single man versus more traditional assets, et cetera.
00:24:08
Speaker
So you know rebalancing of the portfolio so to speak what was warranted when i got married and kind of matured into the into the you know.
00:24:15
Speaker
Ever a mature human being that I am now, but also it's it's just it's time and I think like there are certain watches that will never leave my collection because they mean so much to me some of them are vintage to be honest some of them are not and then there are others that are just beautiful things and I think that the fun thing about vintage and secondary, you know secondary market watches or that like it's easier for me to buy them wear them enjoy them and then sell them without feeling bad and
00:24:41
Speaker
I've never sold a watch that was allocated to me or given to me by anybody that I knew. I've never sold a watch that really I bought new effectively. I've sold a lot of vintage watches and I sold a lot of watches that I enjoyed for a few years and then you move on. But with Rolex in particular,
00:24:59
Speaker
You got enough money got enough time you can find anything you want you know what i mean like if you said hey dude like find me a six two six three oyster paul newman tibany sign i can find you on guarantee you wanna a first three twenty four ninety nine i'll find you on you know like we got a few million bucks like it's not that hard i mean i shouldn't say that it is hard to find one worth buying that checks out every way.
00:25:21
Speaker
But it's not that hard with vintage watches. You know, everyone has a price and we've seen it, you know. And so, you know, if you are a man of man or woman of means, you can find it. And so there's never been something that I sold and then I immediately regretted or said, oh, shit, I'll never get it back. You know, enough money, enough time. You can get anything back you want, you know. And that's how I do it. That's how I think about it. And that's how I had decided to sell.
00:25:44
Speaker
And I think also, I mean, the price is one factor, of course, but also it going to the right people. And I love, you know, I love them going. I've never sold the watch to a guy that I met on Instagram ever, even though people have offered to buy stuff. I sold the watch recently to my neighbor up here, who's an older guy that's just not older, but older than me, that's just getting into it.
00:26:05
Speaker
And he's like i wanna buy a so-and-so but like i want to know that it's good i was like what you want to see can have it i told him i told him what i paid i told him you know what it's worth and like we just said yes or no that's it you know.
00:26:16
Speaker
So it depends, but my 3940, which I'm looking at right now, is a watch I'll keep forever. It was my first Patek. I am a sentimentalist, I think much more so than people might imagine. Actually, the four watches on my desk, the GMT, the Speedy, the 3940, the 5170, I would be shocked if any of them ever left my life.
00:26:36
Speaker
Yeah. You know, me too. I've had a lot of watches come and go, but like right now I'm wearing a Patek 3796. Tiffany signed. Cool. Super fun watch and just such a sleeper in terms of people passing it up based on the size, but it's, it's truly perfect. And I've had a lot of stuff ebb and flow through the collection. I've had watches come back, but this is truly one that I can't imagine letting go of.
00:27:01
Speaker
Yeah. And the idea of watches coming back, I mean, as I said, the last watch I bought was a 14270 blackout Explorer. You know, it's like that was literally my first Rolex ever in 2007 or eight, something like that, probably eight. And it's just like, I love Explorers. I've had a bunch of them.
00:27:16
Speaker
And, you know, this one just like it felt right and I've been wanting to rebuy that watch and now I have and I wear it a lot and it's it is fun buying stuff back. I would I would definitely buy another steel screw down Daytona, not non-pold Newman like it's like a special 6263 or 64. Oh, I would definitely buy an early 6239 again. I sold those. Yeah, I mean, look, it's you find the right thing that gets you going and you feeling good that day you buy it, you know, it's it doesn't have to be some grand emotional, you know, kind of thought process.
00:27:44
Speaker
for sure. All right, let's check cars for a bit. Over the years, your love for cars has grown effectively more than ever.
Ben's Passion for Cars and Porsche
00:27:53
Speaker
And it's no doubt that Porsche is a big love of yours. Would you say it's kind of the main focus in the collection?
00:27:58
Speaker
It's not the main focus. Porsche to me is Rolex, right? It's the foundational brand. It's the brand on which everything else is based off of. A collection is based off of. I have a Rolex right here. Just like my daily car is a Porsche. They make objectively the best cars. I would say that till the day that I die. That doesn't mean to say they make the most emotionally compelling cars.
00:28:24
Speaker
So in terms of collectible cars, I've got the 356 Sagado, which is kind of well-documented. The Wall Street Journal did a story on it. In terms of 911s right now, believe it or not, I don't have a 911 right now. I've got one on order, a 992. I've owned a bunch.
00:28:39
Speaker
Would certainly buy more or buy another but right now i'm enjoying it i'm cars i've got to offer me is that i really love i have an old Ferrari that i really love i have an m one bm w one that is you know kind of a german slash it i'm car so i'm just slightly more obscure things right now but i do really really miss having great elevens and they are.
00:29:03
Speaker
For sure you know there are the rolex america of of of the car world and i say that in a loving way. Let's talk about zagato for a second cuz i think it's such an important brand that gets brushed over a lot especially people just hear the word and they don't know anything about cars. So like you said you had the pleasure of being offered and owning and still on one of the few zagato three fifty six is that they made. What is it about the coach builder that you love so much.
00:29:32
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I just think I think it's important to like set the stage of what a coach builder is so that the readers or listeners other really get it. A coach builder is somebody that would take a chassis and a motor of an existing product. In this case, a Porsche 356 and reshape the body completely. They would build the coach and the coach is obviously going back to the stage coach, etc. Was the body of a train, then a body of a car. So Zagato was an Italian coach builder.
00:29:55
Speaker
That was really kind of rose to prominence, although they date back to the 20s and 30s, they really rose to prominence in the 50s and 60s, making aluminum body race cars for Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, Lancia, Alfa, et cetera.
00:30:08
Speaker
They are so special, so rare. Everything's an aluminum, in my opinion, much more romantic and, you know, I don't want to say sexy because that feels like almost a little bit too basic, but like, you know, really romantic and charming and endearing and.
00:30:26
Speaker
Chaotic at times uh, then peanut freena then touring then then a lot of the other coach builders And they're rarer as well. Uh, so you have these incredibly emotional designs And if you look at a tz1 or a tz2, which are two of my dream cars uh grail cars Like just show me a better looking thing on earth, right? Watch a person a computer a phone, you know, it's just like just like it just pulls emotion out of people
00:30:50
Speaker
And zagato has been able to do that in ways that very few of the coach builders have been able to do. So my first zagato body car was a launch of Flaminia zagato that I bought from a friend in New York. And the car was a total dud as a car, but it looked incredible.
00:31:07
Speaker
I think that got me really hooked on what these special, special hand-built things are. There are coach-built Porsches. I have one of them now, which is a funny story, but Porsches are not. They're the opposite of that. I think in many ways, a coach-built car is like a handmade Patek Philippe from period versus a 911 or a 336, which is like a Submariner from period. Again, both great objects, but really different things that appeal to different kinds of people at times.
00:31:36
Speaker
So Zagato, I had the launch. The Porsche Zagato came into my life. I ordered it in 2015 or 2016. I took delivery in 2019. So now I had it for four years. And I'm sitting at my desk, looking at my window, and it's parked in my driveway. And any time I look at my window and see that, you can't help but smile for sure. Yeah, it's truly something special. I'll link up that article for sure, because it's definitely something that people should see and understand a little bit more.
00:32:05
Speaker
versus just seeing a photo and maybe they'll do some research on Zagato because they're truly an extremely special brand with incredible history.
00:32:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's really, as you said, the brand is really neat. It had its ups and downs like anything. You're talking about a family-run business in a small suburb of Milan, right? This is not Rolex or Patek. This is some still small, small family stuff, and incredibly charming, truly, to this day. I mean, still, if someone said, what would be one of your, if you had unlimited budget, a 250 Ferrari by Zagato would be right up there, for sure.
00:32:43
Speaker
So maintaining your watches is fairly easy, but obviously cars is a completely different beast. It's terrible. You really have to tend to them almost full time. Is this a challenge for you in deciding to add something to the collection? The thing is I'm such a child at heart that like it's never a consideration when I buy the thing. It's a consideration as soon as I get the first bill and realize that I need like a tow truck to come get the car when I won't start. And you know, it takes up half my day to go to the mechanic down 30 minutes away from here or whatever.
00:33:13
Speaker
they are painful to maintain and expensive. And I mean, it really is, you know, there's no reason or no, no, no logic behind car collectors. I really believe that, you know, whereas like with watches, you can say, all right, I'll buy this Daytona retail. I'll sell it for whatever 10 grand more like that. There's logic there, right? But you don't even have to ensure it if you don't want to.
00:33:31
Speaker
With cars, none of that is true. We're talking about this a little bit earlier, but the fact that a Porsche dealer can charge an ADM is insane to me. That should be illegal, in my eyes. You don't have WMP charging ADMs on Daytonas. If they did, the market would be totally different, and it makes no sense. The fact that the car world is so challenging to make money in, honestly, not that I'm here for the money,
00:33:56
Speaker
is just such a it shows you really weeds out a lot of people that like are kinda doing it for the wrong reasons that you get in watches because everyone thinks they can make money watches.
Social Aspects of Car Collecting
00:34:06
Speaker
And kind of like going back to the idea of being jaded by seeing so many watches, you've obviously seen a lot of cars too, but it's different from when you can actually own the thing. Does that make cars and collecting them a little bit more attractive to you in terms of building the collection, whereas you've kind of done that several times over with watches? Yeah, look, I mean, the car thing is so fun because you can enjoy it with other people. You know, my wife and I will hop in my little Julietta Spider and go for a drive out to dinner or something. My daughter, who's,
00:34:35
Speaker
Not even two loves cars and she loves to sit in them and you know, we'll just spin around the driveway or whatever her little plastic car So like it's fun because it's appreciated by more people and that's really rewarding and you can use them, right? I mean nobody needs a watch like the fact that I for watched on my desk right now is ridiculous Like I you know, let alone what's you know at the bank
00:34:54
Speaker
So it's a more rewarding hobby in that it's a little bit more social than watches, I think. And I live upstate, there's cars and coffees up here very often that are really fun. And that's rewarding just to meet people that way. And they are really evocative. And they really pull emotion out of people that they don't know that they necessarily have. And that is always fun. Yeah, even being a passenger. I mean, you get just a different feeling when it comes to especially something vintage.
00:35:22
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, my, my little Julieta spider, which is in the garage downstairs, like that, I mean, like I used to keep it in LA. I bought the car from a friend in Los Angeles and that car, which costs less than an S class or, you know, you know, insert any G wagon for sure. You know, you drive that car around LA, you feel like you're James Dean and you're treated like James Dean, you know, like it really is such a special thing.
00:35:43
Speaker
Meanwhile, it's a four-speed with drum brakes and four-cylinder motor that probably puts out 95 horsepower, so it's not fast, but it's so rewarding to own and drive. The experience that you get from owning it from other people is just remarkable. Is there a car out there you'd sell it all for?
00:35:58
Speaker
that I would sell it all for. It's tricky. A lot of my cars have personal connections. The 356 we mentioned, my 330 GTC, I got married in and did a honeymoon in, so that would be a challenging one to sell. But I think if there were a few cars out there that I would love to own that I would consider selling it all for, a 275 Ferrari, a 4-cam ideally, or just a really great unrestored short nose. I had a 67 S 911, which I consider to be one of the greatest cars ever made.
00:36:28
Speaker
There's one specific car, 67S, that I really like. It's a very special one that I would consider buying at the expense of other things. I've never driven a 73 RS. From what I understand, that would be kind of an endgame car for sure. There's a lot of stuff out there that I love.
00:36:47
Speaker
The Ferrari stuff, it's a little bit like Patek. It's just like, when you're coming up and you don't have a dollar to your name, you're like, who needs it? How good could Patek be? How good could Ferrari be? And then you experience it and you say, wow, it really is that much better. It really is a different thing. And Ferrari, Monte Ferrari to a lesser degree, but vintage, the Colombo V12s are just incredible. Yeah, they're botanos. They really are. And it's just like, again, so emotional and so special in the hand-built nature of it.
00:37:17
Speaker
It's just different, just like a great Patek is different than other things. Yeah, I mentioned I'm wearing this $37.96, and it is a small time-only dress watch. Very small. And there's just something about it that is so incredible versus so many other dress watches that I have.
00:37:36
Speaker
that you can't really explain. You can't explain it. You can't. I mean, it's like, I mean, AP makes great watches, Vacheron makes great watches, long, you know, there's lots of great watchmakers, but Patek is a special thing. And Brand plays a big part in it, but like, they got to being that brand by doing lots of things first, you know, and they still care to this day, definitely.
00:37:54
Speaker
I want to take a moment to talk about another passion of yours, which is golf.
Co-founding Fair Game Golf
00:37:58
Speaker
And you've recently co-founded Fair Game Golf with none other than Adam Scott and a few others. Tell everyone what the plans are for fair game and what we have to look forward to there.
00:38:08
Speaker
So Fairgame is an app co-founded by myself, a friend of mine, Eric Mayville, and then Adam Scott, the master's winner from 2013 and great guy. The idea was to build a digital home for golfers. And I think, you know, frankly, even in a much more robust way than watches or cars, people that are obsessed with golf are obsessed with a capital O. They spend more time on it. They spend more money on it. They spend more, you know, more brain power on it.
00:38:33
Speaker
than any other hobby I've ever come across. And that includes watches and cars that we just spent the last 45 minutes talking about. And I was like, wow, there's really not a home for everyone to kind of like let their freak flag fly, so to speak. And so with Hodinki, you can go on there and you can comment on everything. You can chitchat and bullshit, buy watches, do whatever all day long. That doesn't exist for golf. And so we wanted to build an app for free, basically. We paid for it. Nobody else. We invested in it.
00:38:57
Speaker
that allows people to do that all day long as well as connect with people so they can find more people like them. And when I got really into golf about five or six years ago, I had a little bit of time, a little bit of money, I knew some people and I found it still so hard to break into the golf scene in New York City or New York City area. And I was like, wow, if it's this hard for me, how hard must it be for like the normal guy? You know, the air quotes normal.
00:39:19
Speaker
And so we wanted to build an app that solved that. And so if you go on fair game now, you can get basically a handicap for free. You can find people and search people by location, by interest, by name. You can chat with people. You can comment on people's rounds. It's really a fun social app for golf. And it's early days. It's still bootstrapped. It's basically two or three guys working on it nonstop. And it feels fun. It feels exciting to be building something. And I think there's a long way to go on it. So check it out. And hopefully it'll be a thing soon.
00:39:50
Speaker
Yeah, we'll be sure to link all that up. Last question before the collector's team run down. You've had a lot of great accomplishments in your life and hats off to you truly. What has collecting done for you and how important is it to you in your personal life?
Sentimental Value in Collecting
00:40:07
Speaker
It's a really good question. I mean, I think like the idea of collecting provides a foundation for what Houdini is, you know? And so in that regard, it's remarkably important.
00:40:17
Speaker
in golf and in on fair game side of things like we're not collecting objects in most cases, although that is a burgeoning aspect of it. You're collecting experiences, you know, you're collecting journeys with friends and rounds with with college
00:40:31
Speaker
you know, best friends and roommates and all that. And so I think the idea of like amassing memories or amassing, you know, objects, in the case of Hodinci, is a really compelling thing because everything is tied to a story. And look, there is the financial gain side of it, which is unfortunately more prevalent now than ever, you know, thanks to the Bloombergs of the Worlds and the Wall Street Journal saying that like, you know, by Rolex now, it's guaranteed to be worth more. We found that not to be true, of course.
00:40:56
Speaker
But for me, you know, again, as I said, like this, I'm just looking at, there are four watches on my desk right now. I can tell you the stories of all four of them. One of them, the first one is my 3940G that was, not this one, but the model was worn by, by Fleep Stern, Thierry's father for many, many years. It's kind of considered the quintessential, protectfully really undervalued watch.
00:41:16
Speaker
I bought it for myself when I graduated from journalism school at Columbia as the gift to myself that nobody would ever buy me. And I said, I always wanted to go to Columbia in undergrad. I didn't get in as an undergrad. I did get in for grad student. And I said, fuck, I just achieved something. I want the thing that I want. And I spent every fucking dollar I had to buy it. And that 3940G will be with me forever. I bought it used because it was already discontinued at the time. It's engraved on the back with my name and the year I graduated. That means a whole hell of a lot. My wife wore this Washington event last night.
00:41:46
Speaker
Then we look at my Rolex, which is the white gold Pepsi. I think people forget that for a good number of years there were no Pepsi, bezel, steel GMTs. They only did them in white gold. This was purchased in 2015 when that was the case. This watch was the result of John Mayer and I
00:42:04
Speaker
Both celebrating something, I had just effectively closed my first round of funding for Houdini. He had just signed on to be the lead guitarist in a band called Dead and Co. And we were in New York City and we said, fuck it, let's go to the Rolex boutique on 5th and see what they have. They had two white gold Pepsi GMTs and we both bought them. And that, you know, that's an amazing memory and also engraved on the back.
00:42:25
Speaker
Then we have a 5170P, which I'll be totally honest with you, does not have a sentimental story tied with it. It's a hand-wound chronograph from Pat Tech, Tiffany signed. Sometimes he just liked the thing. And in this case, I just fucking love this thing. There's no story, you know, there's no great sentimental moment, you know, tied to this watch. I just love it. And I wear it a lot and it brings me a lot of joy. And then finally, I've got this white gold, cannabis gold rather, Speedmaster.
00:42:52
Speaker
which I bought for my son, who was born just five months ago. The Omega Speedmaster plays a really important role in my history and the history of my company. And so when my grandfather gave me one, I have one that's very special to me.
00:43:06
Speaker
I wanted my son to have one as well. And so I bought the white gold 3861, which is a very special and actually very, very rare watch. And so, you know, again, you know, collecting these things are really three out of four of them are collecting incredibly important moments in my life. And so that is super powerful to me.
00:43:26
Speaker
Love it. Couldn't have said it better. I think not a lot of people look into the tangential side of collecting, you know, the stories behind things, the experiences, the memories and all that sort of stuff. And those are what makes the collecting moments as special as they are. Yeah, absolutely. All right, let's wrap it up with the collectors you run down, Ben. You can answer these based on any of the collections you have, watches, cars, anything
Missed Opportunities and Future Interests
00:43:51
Speaker
else. So what's the one that got away?
00:43:54
Speaker
One that got away. Oh, man. Well, it's a car. It's a car. It's an Alfa Romeo TZ1 that I had the opportunity to buy in 2020. I mean, it cost a fortune. That would have been one that I would have to sell everything for.
00:44:09
Speaker
Ended up making an offer. It ended up going to a friend of mine who, you know, was a much more serious buyer than I was. He said, if I ever sell it, I'll give you a shout. Last year he said, Hey man, I'm thinking of selling it. I'm buying something else. Do you want it? And I, again, still a fortune. So, okay. Maybe I can figure out the cash, why not to drive it. And it was just a little bit too extreme for me. It was a real race car. And I just didn't think it fit into my lifestyle at this point. And again, being about to be the father of two back then, father of one.
00:44:38
Speaker
So that car, that particular VIN number, that particular TZ is definitely the car that got away. And maybe it ended up selling. Maybe one day when I have more time and more money and more something, it might come back around. But that particular TZ one is for sure the car that got away. No question about it. What about the on deck circles? So what's next for you in collecting maybe something you have your eye on, maybe an area you're focusing on?
00:45:04
Speaker
Yeah, I would say I have like an area, but I can tell you the things that I have on order, the things that I like, I'm excited about. So, you know, I'm a dad now, as I've said about 100 times and very proud of that. But I like the eccentric things that appeal to me are really different. So I used to own GT3 Touring, the first generation.
00:45:21
Speaker
that I loved, but that car was bananas. I mean, it was so fast and so crazy. And I just like, I drove the 992 GT3 and I found that to be just a little bit too extreme. And so, you know, as a vintage car guy, I was like, man, like the 911 that I actually liked the most here is the Cura-T, which is the least powerful with a manual, but has a lot of the sport performance options, et cetera, on it, and is really designed for the purists and Porsche themselves actually call it the only 911 designed for a purist.
00:45:46
Speaker
So I have a career tea on order that I'm incredibly excited about as as I have a take on You know as I said electric car as my daily but the 911 I'm specming out to be my car and I expect to own that car for a very very long time and that that is compelling to me You know really taking the time to order it the way that I want it You know, we'll probably do European delivery so my wife and I can pick it up in Europe and have a nice vacation out of it I'm very excited about that and then in terms of watches I've really been into AP
00:46:15
Speaker
I think what they're doing with their RD series, the research and development series, the RD-3 in particular, is just incredible. The RD-3 spoke to me, I have the RD-2 as well, the RD-3 spoke to me in a way that no other tourbillon wristwatch has ever spoken to me. A, in that I actually wanted it, and then B, that I wasn't embarrassed to wear it because it's the Jumbo case, the 15202 case, or the 5402 or 1602, whatever you want to call it.
00:46:39
Speaker
16202 case but with a flying tour beyond and the it was basically the idea of taking like imagine I mean, it's like going back to like, you know, the cars that I love are like imagine like an e39 m5, which looks like your dad's, you know, a mid 90s bankers car but actually has a VA with a six speed, you know, and you know, the the RD two and RD three is that it looks like a normal Royal Oak but has crazy self winding flying tour beyond.
00:47:02
Speaker
I think AP is doing great stuff there. You know, Rachep, Rachepi, you know, that's holy grail stuff. Hopefully I'll get one of those someday. Patek, of course. Lange, you know, some very special Lange, their chronographs I think are still the best in the world. Yeah, I mean, again, I think in terms of like collecting, in terms of watch, like a watch or brand that I bought more than one of over the past few years, it would be AP.
00:47:26
Speaker
They find this way to balance like, cool slash hype demand, you know, like what the what the rappers want, what the rock stars want, movie stars, whatever, with the ceramic stuff and whatever, whatever diamond covered here and there. But then they do a watch like an RD2, which is the super slim perpetual calendar, like show that watch to a watchmaker.
00:47:45
Speaker
And they'll lose their mind. They will lose their mind. Yeah, they may not know what to do. Exactly. And I think that is what's really neat is like they are not messing around in terms of actual watchmaking as well as doing some cool shit with materials and putting it on famous people. What color did you do the 911?
00:48:04
Speaker
It's slate gray. I'm a slate gray guy. So paint is kind of a slate gray with a bunch of special options here and there. It was the same color I did my GT3 touring in. Yeah, look, I mean, if you look at herdinki limited editions, there's a lot of grays that are featured in that stuff that is certainly my color for sure. How about the unobtainable? So maybe it's in a private collection, a museum, it's just truly never coming to market.
00:48:29
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know that it's never, you know, look, there's a lot that are like genuinely unattainable, like any 250 LM or a GTO or all that. I can say that a car that was really compelling to me that I am nowhere near able to afford just came up a gooding, which was that unrestored short wheelbase, which happened to be in gray, which was, you know, not like if I could, I would for sure.
00:48:50
Speaker
Like that, to me, is one of the greatest cars of all time. And that particular example, which I'd actually known about via friend for a few years, was just incredible. I mean, really, that car in that colorway, in that condition, was just incredible.
00:49:04
Speaker
So if I hit the lottery or something like it, that would be right up there. There are more cars and watches that are tied to people. So Briggs Cunningham, which was an American entrepreneur, slash race car driver, slash watch collector, somebody I've long been fascinated by. He had an Alfa Romeo, Julietus Prince Pichale, that is also gray and original condition. I tried to buy that a few years ago and was, I would say, quickly shot down by the owner who doesn't need to sell anything.
00:49:34
Speaker
And then, similarly, he had a Patek 565 as well. And so, you know, a grand vision I've had would be driving that car with that watch, neither of which have been attainable to date. That would be true peak. Yeah, I have a highly specific, highly nerdy goal of driving that car with that watch, but it probably won't ever happen, and that's okay. The page one rewrites, so if you could collect anything besides cars and watches, money, no object, what would it be?
Beyond Cars and Watches: Photography
00:50:05
Speaker
Probably photographs. My dad was a photographer. I fancy myself a photographer to some degree. I get it, you know, and I think sometimes I'll go into like a contemporary art gallery or something. I just like, I'll be honest, I just don't connect, you know, but with photography, I really do. And I can say I like that and here's why. With paintings and sculptures, I'm a little bit more lost. So probably photography would be where I would go.
00:50:31
Speaker
How about the goat? Who do you look up to in the collecting world or who do you think is the greatest collector of our generation? Oh, that's, I mean, it's so complex and much is, I mean, John Goldberger, who you interviewed is right up there, no question. The passion and understanding and touch and feel is just remarkable with him. I mean, incredible. Yeah, I really don't know how you beat, you know, his knowledge and experience and ownership.
00:51:00
Speaker
Yeah, it's scholarship, it's experience, it's willingness to share, which is very, very uncommon at that level, as I'm sure you know. Like, there's a lot of rich guys out there that have crazy shit. Some of them don't even know what they have. Those that do don't want to talk about it. Goldberger wants to talk about it. So, you know, I think, you know, it's an expected answer, but he remains numero uno in my mindset for sure. Yeah, no doubt. The hunt or the ownership?
00:51:27
Speaker
It depends. For a vintage watch or something like that, it's the Hunt. For a contemporary watch with sentimental value, it's the ownership for sure.
00:51:36
Speaker
For my 40th birthday, my wife got me a watch. She just went to a store and she called in a favor and got it. I don't care. She didn't care about how she got it. She just knew that's what made sense for my 40th birthday and that's it. Generally speaking, it's the ownership for vintage stuff, which again is more of a ...
Collecting as Self-Expression
00:51:54
Speaker
I view my contemporary things, cars, watches, whatever as part of me and not
00:51:59
Speaker
Assets like not like something I see my balance sheet, but just things that I love whereas vintage cars vintage watches I do view kind of as more investments and assets so in the form I'm talking about the assets I do I do prefer the hunt Most importantly, do you feel that you were born with the collectors gene? Yes, I do as I've said Elsewhere on our own side and others like, you know, I was collecting baseball cards and Marvel cars and baseballs and
00:52:29
Speaker
everything under the sun, you know, when I could. And it's just who I am. Like it's just, again, like I'm a pretty understated quiet guy. And it's a way for me to express myself that I think is...
00:52:41
Speaker
is really nice and really personal, but is shareable to some degree, which I think is really important for men that tend to live insular lives. I think being able to express yourself in some way and share it with other guys, in this case, or girls, is important. I was definitely born with it, and I'm very happy that I've expressed myself that
00:53:03
Speaker
Love it. Ben, thank you so much for coming on. Congratulations, most importantly, on becoming a father twice over and everything that you have going on with Hodinky and fair game and just always good to chat with you. Absolutely. It was a real pleasure and glad we could do it. All right, that does it for this episode. Thank you all for listening to Collector's Gene Radio.