Transcript
Jeff Yates: ah Thought you're gonna do the intro
Seth: Oh, I thought you were going to play the music.
Seth: ah Hello, folks. We've got Sam Karens, and we understand, Sam, you have a story about your first time downwinder ending up in a treacherous field of skewers ah through oyster farms near Bangkok.
Seth: Sounds interesting.
Sam: Yeah, in Thailand. Aloha guys.
Seth: Tell us a story.
Jeff Yates: Aloha.
Sam: Yeah, it's been, a as you say, my first downwind ever. ah It was five years ago. It was with the windsurf equipment on the foil already. So it was actually the IQ foil gear. And um so to set the scene, I was at this time working with Starboard in Thailand. So Starboard windsurfing. And we were actually making the first wing foil prototypes at this time.
Sam: but it was still very new and I was actually then maybe more in the windsurf foiling at this time and I was ah hanging a lot with Remy Villa, he's a really sick and interesting person and he's been the designer of this IQ foil gear so and he was ah always a bit attracted by doing some downwinds and discovering the Bangkok area.
Sam: So the yeah, well, it was it was really motivated.
Seth: already sounds crazy.
Sam: It was really motivated. And and you have to to know that in the starboard, we were doing the test in Pattaya. Pattaya is a very famous, infamous city, I would say, a bit about like
Jeff Yates: well known as a Navy port as well to visit.
Sam: yeah it's ah it's It's very famous, if you know why, you know why.
Jeff Yates: yes
Sam: and But it's also the place where is the and big starboard center, a part of the city, and it's a really sick place with all the gear you want to have in your garden to go play.
Sam: And um so it's about 140 kilometers ah more south from Bangkok. And it's in the Thai Gulf. And so we wanted to go from Patayat to Bangkok downwinding with wind coming from the south. And um so we were really... I was 22 and I was excited for whatever things people will propose. And the I think I was not aware at all of what a downwind was meaning in terms of preparation and danger and logistics. ah So i for example, I didn't get my phone, I just took
Sam: the gear and that's it you know. Remy obviously is a bit older than me, he's in the 50s so he was definitely more aware of ah the problems that might happen and so he took his phone and his watch and obviously he was ah kind of trying to make me comfortable table on the gear.
Sam: um And yeah, so it's we started in Pataya and I think it was something like 10 knots. And yeah, exactly. this is This is exactly this. So it's a big... ah Well, you when you look at the map, it's it's quite a bit of distance, 140 kilometers.
Seth: Yeah!
Sam: it' It's your job. And you see on the screen all these islands. ah So there are definitely a lot of islands and that's why I was intrigued to to visit on the foil. Because in Thailand, it's so incredible there. You have so many beautiful islands. It's paradise. It's really para paradise.
Sam: And then you arrive to Bongkoc. Bongkoc, what to say about it, is one of the biggest megalopol in the world, one of the most polluted, one of the most chaotic cities in the world. I learned to love it so much for the food, for the people, the Thai people, they are really nice people.
Sam: um But something that is important to know at this time of the story is that you should guess that in Bangkok there is a lot of pollution and it might be a bit of traffic in the water.
Sam: So i mean knowing this, we decided and yeah we decided we decided to go.
Jeff Yates: Everybody has a boat.
Sam: um We are not so conscious of this, we could guess. um But the main motivation was to do my first dog.
Seth: did you Did you hug the coastline or did you go kind of more straight line? Did you did you stay along the coast?
Sam: So we tried to stay um in between the coast and the islands. So this group of islands where you zoomed in, it was ah we so we passed by very close from the islands, actually just 50, 100 meters away. you know um And we didn't get so far away from the coast because we wanted to be feeling safe as well for 100, 40 kilometers. It was quite long because ah on the iufi on the IQ you don't go down on windsurf foiling, you don't go downwinding like you would go in a wind and even much less than with the subfoil.
Sam: You really have to go like, yeah, reach, reach.
Jeff Yates: You can't completely left. You can't completely left the sale because it's connected. Right.
Sam: Yeah, yeah it's it's very tricky.
Jeff Yates: Yeah.
Sam: You have a lot of power. ah in i With my weight, I'm 62 kilos. ah In 12 knots, with an 8 -meter on the IQ file, I was already super overpowered, yeah and I love it.
Jeff Yates: That's a big sale for power for, for a foil. Yeah.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And big front wing. So yeah, it's definitely different. So you cannot go ah full downwind, and it takes way more time than what you would um expect with the wing, for sure.
Sam: So, but I mean, actually, I think you you can cross the the old Gulf of Thailand. ah There are some ah is this a place, I think, in the other side where people already crossed, I think it was windsurfing. And if you go really fast with strong wind, you can do it in 12 hours, apparently.
Sam: Yeah, it must be a journey.
Jeff Yates: Wow.
Sam: I've known ah one person that already did this. But yeah, well for for us, it was more about doing the downwinds. So um we already we, of course, told some friends to come to pick us ah in Bangkok, because Bangkok is huge.
Sam: ah So it's not like you will drive to your place like this, you know. um It was actually 15 kilometers away from our office and home.
Sam: um and you could not access the beach. So already checking the map, we we will we will see that it will be very tricky to access ah some beach, some beaches in Bangkok, because it was full of activity, industrial activity, and it was not so many in Korea where you can go.
Seth: Yeah. Can I inject?
Jeff Yates: Right.
Seth: Because I have a little bit of a little bit of time in that area. I was a scuba instructor there. But but what I want to say is, just to to paint the picture here for people, is that there' there's not only boat traffic, but there's i mean there's just there's rubbish and stuff everywhere.
Seth: And then I was looking at the maps of Bangkok. There's all these river mouths where, of course, all the stuff's going to be coming out. The water is murky.
Sam: Yeah.
Seth: ah You have these not only shipping boats and container boats and fishing boats, but then you've got long tails, which is like a gigantic canoe with a 12 -foot prop motor sticking off the back.
Sam: Yes, exactly.
Seth: It sounds like a Harley Davidson.
Sam: And you have also animals. ah In Bangkok, you have everything you don't want to see in the water, especially the monitor lizards. ah They are really famous. It's the same size as a crocodile.
Seth: um like
Sam: And it's actually a big lizard that can ah bite you, that ah can kill you with the legs.
Seth: Bacteria.
Sam: ah so yeah it's very and yeah it's the pollution the is one of the most polluted area and the water as you say is very brown you cannot see anything and is a lot of pollution in the water so it's very industrial everywhere and it's definitely not a place where you think about going just for fun so the point was okay we have fun for for the first part and we just come back home 150 kilometers just with the gear. you know um So that was the the scenery of the scene of the downwind. It was my first downwind, obviously. ah So I was really excited and really not aware of the the conditions. um So first part of the downwind went really good. It was actually quite a um
Sam: exhausting because it took six hours in total and after three hours you know you when you are traveling you you you are around some islands you pass the islands you go to another one you meet a lot of boats already and you start to say okay well i i did some distance it's it's nice and you still have half the way to go um So it was definitely a long journey, but I really enjoyed it. At the beginning, it was paradise. ah In Pattaya, the water is through quays, and the islands were magnificent. You can see the white sand, the coconut tree, ah and I was really enjoying the gear. It was super good conditions, like 10, 12 knots perfect for a downwind with such a powerful gear.
Sam: um and we were always checking with Remy making some breaks checking on us and so yeah it was the first half of the journey and then we arrived to a point where we could see we could start to see Bangkok with our eyes and then everything started to become horrible um because we entered in the biggest, in the world's biggest oyster park. So it's been a revelation actually because we didn't know it and when you look on the map you can see it if you really know what you are looking for but you will not expect that there is something here you know it's a
Sam: Yeah, it's it's it was about 20 kilometers of oyster park, 20 kilometers.
Jeff Yates: So what do they have?
Sam: It's huge. like We could hardly see Bangkok that we were already facing ah chaos. And so here it became very dangerous, actually, because
Jeff Yates: what's a what's it Is it just a bunch of buoys on the little floats on the top?
Sam: No, no, no, no.
Jeff Yates: or
Sam: So no buoys, only peaks, like steel and wood peaks ah going out of the water.
Jeff Yates: Spikes.
Sam: i And yeah, spikes, yeah.
Jeff Yates: Mike's in the water. Yeah.
Sam: Sorry, spikes. um Something very pointy. and the
Seth: Nice and rusty.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And apparently this is ah something they need. So it's a big bar and very sharp at the end. And I i think they, I guess they need it for the oysters to be raised and the leave around it, you know, and also to fish them.
Jeff Yates: Right.
Sam: um And it was a huge labyrinth. There will be literally some ah bars of these sticks every meter. And the line will will be there for,
Sam: 500 600 meters and it will be like this for 10 10 15 kilometers and so yeah we could maneuver at the beginning it was not very dense but the most we would go the more dense it would become and it was really a trap we could not escape at all it was a it It was a big trap, a bit labyrinth. And I insist that you will see nothing in the water. Everything was brown. So you will see the peaks until ah some sometimes they were huge and coming out of the water from one meter. But sometimes they were really, you could not see them, you know, and they were just piercing the water. So um very quickly, we started to realize that if you fall on those peaks, you can definitely get
Sam: really harmed yeah yeah yeah yeah definitely and also for the gear if you if you let your sail fall on it then obviously the sail is done ah the foil if you if you eat because it was metal bars if you eat it with the foil you can definitely have something with the foil so very quickly we could not foil anymore
Jeff Yates: You'll impale yourself. Yeah.
Sam: i we would have been too fast to see what's coming and so we were just windsurfing regular windsurfing at five knots and going downwind still but we could not see anything and at this time i started to be a bit uh afraid and i could see that remi was definitely not planning this uh during the downwind so we were like okay we have to go through it let's try maybe we go back
Jeff Yates: Right.
Sam: But it was already really late, and the night was coming. So we say, OK, we have to go. It's on only 10 kilometers. we We see it.
Jeff Yates: it can't be that big right
Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um as Seth was mentioning, we started to see a lot of these big, huge boats, containers that will just go and they will not care obviously of the sticks.
Sam: It was a big mess. And um at some point, I remember I literally saw um in the water a very sharp wheel.
Jeff Yates: It can't be that big, right?
Sam: that was really similar in what you see in some books, history books, where they explain how they torture the people. ah So it was a wheel with this very sharp teeth. And it was for me was like what I would define as a torture tool, you know? And I was literally seeing this floating in the water next to me. And at this point I was, I started to be really afraid because I thought, okay, if I fall on this,
Sam: for any reason I die because it was super sharp, it was super polluted, you get infections from everywhere and the stress was really deep. um So it took us...
Jeff Yates: Yeah, you might not die immediately, but if you get poked with one of those, it'll be a nasty recovery.
Sam: Man, if you fall on this on your head, you die for sure and if you fall on your arm or whatever, it's a nasty injury.
Jeff Yates: Yeah.
Jeff Yates: Oh yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
Sam: So definitely not so yeah or or you want to get your first downwind session. So we started to be really stressed and even Remy, so he started to call actually the guys that were waiting for us ah because they were like, ah ah where are you guys? We are waiting for you. We are at the beach waiting for you. And ah so we could nearly see the car at some points, like five kilometers away. We could see the place where we had to go, but we could not reach it.
Sam: and until the very end it was crazy because the more we were going forward the more dense was these peaks lines and it was literally about finding your way inside so it took us two hours to do this 10 -15 kilometers and at the end it was Yeah, really stressing. But we we managed to do it. Obviously, I'm here. I'm in good health, so it means we managed to do it. And um the story was not over yet.
Sam: Because to when we arrived on the area, on the site, we had to to grow to climb but over a wall. And there were still some peaks.
Sam: ah And at some points, Remy was ah literally trying to climb the wall. And his sail fell on the peaks.
Sam: And the sail got completely destroyed in a frame.
Jeff Yates: Move.
Sam: is And we were like, fuck, no way. like we You did it. And from the end and the last the last very last moment where it's a approach it's tricky, you you break the sail.
Sam: So he was ah it was a bit of a, actually at this point we were laughing at it, but it was terrible when you think about it.
Jeff Yates: Jeez, that's a lot of gear to to get out, to try to carry out over a wall.
Sam: and
Seth: This is a point.
Sam: Yeah, it's very heavy this gear, the IQ foil, so the board is about 15 kilo, the sail is about 10 kilos maybe, it's really...
Jeff Yates: oo
Jeff Yates: but that's
Jeff Yates: It's a nine foot board or so.
Sam: Yeah, big board, yeah.
Jeff Yates: Right? Somewhere in the nine foot range. Yeah. that Isn't that though, that's the one that became the the the Olympic class, right?
Sam: Exactly, yeah, yeah, it's the Olympic one, yeah.
Jeff Yates: Yeah.
Seth: so sam
Jeff Yates: Oof.
Sam: So...
Seth: Part of this that's great is is sharing the story. And one thing that we we kind of wrap the story up with was was laughter. And that's kind of why I really love having you on and talking about a first time downwind. Everybody has that experience in some way or another. Most people probably don't go through a labyrinth of bacterial -ridden, rusty death and skewers.
Seth: um However, we laugh in hindsight, but it's because we survived and we probably learned a few things along the way. So I actually have a, I want to talk a little bit about your story and and what you gained from that experience.
Seth: But before we do that, I want to share a little bit of a, I've got a recording from another fellow that did his first ever Downwinder.
Sam: yeah
Seth: And I actually haven't even listened to it yet. It's about a three minute ah recording. um So I'm curious ah how this went for him and let's see if we can draw some inferences between the your story, his story, and maybe listeners first time ever, maybe not even a downwind or just an experience in the water or something like that.
Sam: Yeah.
Seth: um I hope that this picks up.
Sam: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: I'm just going to play it. This is Phil. I'm 52 years old and I just had my first experience off the coast of the island of Kauai.
Jeff Yates: No.
Seth: I went with two local guys. and we launched from Mahalapu beach and rigged up right on the beach right next to a Noni fruit tree and then just walked our stuff right into the water and we had to paddle out in between two reefs in sort of a diagonal fashion past the breakers and then you could get on your board and get on foil and head out and that's what the first guy did. I followed him and it worked out great. It was a little intimidating at first because I didn't want to get washed up onto to the reef and
Seth: oh also following him out there. We were pretty far off shore and I thought, geez, we're just pretty far out here. It makes me a little nervous. But after a while, after you get time on the foil and you realize, you know, you can come in and out and everything's gonna be okay, I felt a lot better about it. And then it just became exhilarating to be out in that wind and be riding into the swell and with the swell and over time that wind and swell was just pushing us down the island towards our landing point at Poipu Beach and i I fell off my board and I got back on my board and I just sat on it looking at the island from that perspective because it was so beautiful because you can see so much of the island and it was such beautiful day and at one point
Seth: about halfway down, we took a moment to scoop out Poopoo Peach and we were pointing at it, looking at it, and just at that moment a whale breached right in front of us, like not that far from us. It just shot out of the water head first and landed on its side and the water was spectacular.
Seth: and after all that about halfway through the wind started to die down a little bit which made me a little nervous because i started to get worried about getting back on shore but um you sort of realize you can work it out you can just if you needed to just kneel on your board and hold your wing up or paddle whatever you need to do it's you know it sort of calms your nerves after you realize how immobile you are out there and then
Sam: Bye.
Seth: And then as we got closer to the beach, the wind sort of picked up and it was easy to get on foil and we played around out in the swell for a bit longer and then headed on in and came up on the beach and just had a spectacular experience. And now I feel a lot better about the safety of the downloading experience, especially if you're with a group. And it's really sort of a bonding experience it was a lot of fun was It was just amazing. Yeah, right on. So that guy's name is Phil. He's he's from Hood River area, which is a downwind mecca in the summertime. So um it's interesting that he had his first downwind experience here on Kauai. And it sounds like a pretty good one. But some of the things that I'm pulling from both of your stories are
Seth: um the the nerves. And I think as ah as a human, those are those are natural instincts to protect ourselves from things that are potentially dangerous, and also things to lean into to kind of learn how can I mitigate plight and ah do this safely while it is a little bit crazy. So there's a lot of the world like that's looking at downwinding. and and And Sam, we're going to introduce you now, too, that you are a foil maker at Onyx out of Tarifa, Spain.
Seth: And you're developing a different downwind foil at the moment.
Sam: Yeah.
Seth: But um what I want to convey to listeners is that you're going to have first time experiences with these foil sports, these disciplines, whether it's damn downwinding or not. um So what are some things that like from your story and from Phil's that ah we could learn from, obviously these were potentially very dangerous experiences, but they were successful and we're laughing and we're having fun talking about it now. What um what would you do different with your first ever foil trip or downwind?
Sam: Yeah, so first of all, I think the most important things I want to point out of these two stories is the amount of joy and fun that we got from it. And I want to tell the people that never downwind it, um try to think about when you are traveling and ah in the car or in the plane in a very beautiful landscape. You are alone. No one is there. You're already very happy. You already feel very free.
Sam: And the feeling that you have when you do it on the water is incredible. It's a freedom that i never I never thought it could happen like this. And it's actually super easy to get it downwind.
Sam: is not difficult to organiz to organize with friends. And you can do it from everywhere. And you can do it in France, in a lake. You can, as we said, also in the Hood River, you can do it on islands. Wherever you do it, it's going to be incredible. So ah first of all, I think the joy feeling is something very common in the downwind.
Sam: Now to talk a bit more about the traps. um As you as the this guy Phil is mentioning, for example, the the the wind was dying and he started to realize that it didn't really have ah ways to really escape this situation. So if the wind would have died completely, you say, okay, maybe with the ball, I can swim. But yeah, this is fucked, basically. And in in my situation as well, I i didn't study the the location.
Sam: So I think the most important thing you should do while you do your first downwinds is to stay yeah ah the closest you can and you feel comfortable from the coast. ah At least to always try to see the coast very comfortable and think, okay, but If the wind died or if there is a problem, I can always paddle myself. Even if I have no more gear available, no more wind available, I can even paddle back. Or if I'm not just with the paddle, I can paddle back. So I think this is the most important takeaway.
Sam: And then also from my story, which is, okay, maybe you will not find oyster parks everywhere in every spot when you don't wind, but definitely you will find some dangers. And I will definitely, even if it feels super stupid, ah because we all know the places, but I will still try to document document a bit the ah trip.
Sam: Okay, so how it looks? Where is potential dangers? Are there rocks in the water that we can find at this point? Which animals are there? um Yeah, these kind of things with the oyster. I think that definitely when you look on the map, you can see it. um So definitely looking also the access and the entry points and the checkout. So when you go out of the water,
Sam: How is it going to be? Do you know it? Have you been there already? Did you go out by this area? Because um yeah if it's a remote place where it's not famous, ah it can be it can be very tricky.
Seth: Yeah. Often Google Maps or not.
Jeff Yates: One other thing we think about is the ditch points along the way, right?
Seth: Go ahead. Yeah.
Jeff Yates: What are the other potential ditch points, right? Where can you go in? And basically it's got to be downwind of you. yeah You're not going to be able to fight the current if you're paddling with all the gear.
Jeff Yates: So you got to think about your this stitch point and then then that next one, if you can't make it to that to the first ditch point.
Sam: Yeah.
Jeff Yates: And then you also got to think about well there's a reason it's a ditch point to is It's not the ending because it's not as easy to get out or there's other potential dangers there to get out so that you got to mitigate that maybe if you're winging you, you need to deflate your wing to get in.
Sam: Yeah.
Jeff Yates: Maybe you need to turn your board upside down to get past something. So you got to think about, think through the process for each of those ditch points.
Seth: ah Yeah, plan A, B and C. Obviously plan A is to make it all the way and high five at the end. Plan B is maybe we got to come in a third of the way or two thirds of the way. And this is really important because all these locations are going to be very different. You know, here where we are on Kauai, that run that Phil was talking about, you've only got kind of one spot that you can come in about a third of the way into the run because it's all cliffs and reefs until then.
Seth: And then you got to make it around another point that has some current and stuff like that before you get to the next point. So you can look at Google Maps, but maybe they're not completely updated with pictures of exactly how those oyster farms are positioned.
Sam: Yeah, for sure.
Jeff Yates: rough
Seth: which I just want to touch on that again for a moment because I've flown from those islands in the Gulf down ah like Kosamui, Koh Tao, and Koh Phanyang to fly back into Bangkok and when you fly over that it's it's it's aqua farming like it's everywhere it looks it looks like a labyrinth I mean for sure I wouldn't want to sail through there
Sam: Yeah.
Sam: yeah Yeah.
Jeff Yates: That's not your first choice. Not your first choice to go through.
Sam: ah bongokk is A especially if you look at it from the sky, is the ah city built on the water. It's it's huge on the city. It's one of the huge biggest capital in the world, but it's entirely built on water.
Seth: um So other things that are good notes for people that are wanting to downwind for the first time, things like that, definitely go with a group. you know It depends on the discipline that you're in. If you're just sup downwinding, you might not be able to stay together, but ah the guy in the front can stop and wait, I mean bare minimum. you know That's kind of why I favor using a wind wing or even these pair of wings that are being developed now, because you can actually circle back around upwind.
Seth: Really hard to rescue somebody, but we can stay together.
Sam: Yeah.
Seth: um Radios, telephones, GPS trackers, bright colors, whistles, I don't know. I look like a Christmas tree sometimes when I do these runs, and I actually have guys poking fun at me, but I got a lot of bases covered there.
Seth: I even sometimes carry a little mirror with me, you know in case I got a flag and airplane.
Sam: Yeah, and what food?
Seth: you know But we are in the middle of the Pacific as well, so you've got to consider where where your logistical location and safety ah you know, standards lie, but these are good things to consider.
Sam: Yeah. Now, as as ah Phil was mentioning, he said at some point I started i started to be stressed, but ah being in a group helped me to be very chill. And for me, it was exactly the same. At this point where I know I could have panicked and really it could have turned out as a really, really stressful experience to be with someone, even if he was stressed as well, it really helped me to to to chill out.
Sam: so I think it's very important and I will mention always tell people that are on land that you are doing the downwind if you can share your position um with your mobile phone is is actually one of the most important because if you have a problem you can call them and they will organize the rescue and if you can actually even signal your position the rescue will be then easier and faster so I think
Seth: yes
Seth: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Jeff Yates: Right.
Sam: I know that it's not possible in all the, maybe in Hawaii, maybe you don't have a lot of connection at some areas. I know in Tarifa, we lose some connection in some areas while doing the downwinds.
Sam: So I expect that in many places is not always a lot of connection, but I think um we can even get some trackers um that people, we we can share to people and they can they can see where we are.
Seth: yeah
Sam: I think it's super important and at least even if we don't have the trackers just to mention to your ah close friend or somebody that you are doing this downwind from this position to this position and you send a message when you are leaving and you also send a message when you are arriving yeah it sounds very very stupid when you say it but um if you don't do it you can get fucked up really fast
Seth: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, very good. Absolutely.
Jeff Yates: or the time that you don't do it will be the time that you needed it, yes.
Seth: Yeah. And that's the thing, okay things can go wrong very fast. And the the last thing, well, not the last thing, but one of the so most significant things out of these stories that I wanted to touch on was that staying calm thing.
Seth: so I come from a scuba instructing background and this most people that I would get first timers doing that it's it's a very unnatural thing ah to breathe underwater and as an instructor a lot of times what I would have to do is distract them from their own minds because basically our minds can snowball in some sort of a direction to create panic ah you'll exhaust yourself quicker you'll run out of energy you'll make poor decisions
Sam: Yeah.
Seth: So that whole staying calm thing is probably one of the most important things in any kind of offshore situation. you know Even if you're just winging at your local and you you nick yourself or something, you gotta be able to think through that and potentially self rescue. And those are those are good habits to work on and skills to develop.
Sam: Yeah, and if you go with somebody with first downwind, and is that is if the guy or the girl is not technically very comfortable, I would definitely suggest that the most experienced guy around accompanied the person stay around because um I've been in this position ah where I did a downwind with a group of people and I was with a friend he was his first downwind on the wind and he was taking his time falling a lot
Sam: ah going very slow. And what happened is that all the group went very fast and were really egoist.
Jeff Yates: Left and behind.
Sam: They went really fast in. They had their downwinds, you know.
Jeff Yates: Move.
Sam: And I can get it that when you are downwinding, it's also very frustrating to wait for the overs some time. It's so much much freedom that basically you don't want to have a constraint when you are experiencing so much freedom.
Sam: um And people are, um and i I tend to understand this, that they are they are fully
Seth: Yeah.
Sam: failures about going and not stopping when they whenever they want. so ah But it's very important that at least one person stay with this person because if something happens to him, he will start to be stressed very much faster than you would.
Seth: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, well said. With all of that, and we've highlighted some some of the most wonderful things about it, and some of the scarier things about it, I would easily say that down -winding is for anybody, no matter what your skill level is. In fact, there's there's people that will do their first lessons in a down -wind scenario, so they're not having to walk back up the reach and reset. you know It's really neat. Places like um down -end,
Seth: Where was I? Just a little while ago.
Jeff Yates: We'll try that.
Seth: La Ventana.
Sam: ah eleven
Seth: Yeah, you can you can downwind so down the beach during your first ever foil lessons. And that's a really nice way to learn because you're just going with the elements. You're not battling too much. So this downwinding is for anybody.
Seth: Just take in some precautions and stay calm and be with a ah group that at least one person knows what they're doing.
Sam: Yeah, and where now it is.
Jeff Yates: Hopefully somebody's done the route before, yes.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. Have a look at your entry and exit zones, if possible, by by your own eyes, you know, those kinds of things. Those are really good.
Sam: Yep.
Seth: Anything else you want to add like that you learned from your experience? And then I would love to hear about you and and what you're you're doing and what you're working on.
Sam: So no, what I've learned from the experience is ah was magical. um And um it was actually something like I would not expect to be feeling so free when before I did it. um So I definitely recommend for if you can do it, sometimes it's not easy to motivate yourself. We always, we are like this, we are humans.
Sam: But if you never did it, just try what at least one time with some people. And for sure, you will be... Because, yeah, when you are going from ah in a session, in your favorite spot, you can go upwind a lot and get you can go downwind in, obviously, to get back. But it's not the same feeling. ah Even if you downwind for 10 minutes, it's not the same feeling than going from point A to point B.
Sam: ah And also, maybe something we didn't mention is the logistics around it, because ah you really have to plan your trip ah back with the cars.
Seth: Yeah.
Sam: ah So you need minimum two cars to to ah organize the downwind. So it's it's a lot of logistics.
Jeff Yates: or Uber.
Seth: yes Yeah. Yeah, there's there's a few different ways, but this is one of the the biggest challenges is the logistics of the drop -off and the pickup because you take two cars to the exit point and you drive one car back and all those things.
Seth: But yeah, I've been hearing stories and seeing guys that ah have actually, like in in California, there's guys that will that'll take a bus upwind to their entry zone.
Sam: yeah yeah yeah
Seth: you know So there's different ways. um But yeah, those logistics are are part of the plan.
Jeff Yates: What the electronics are you using, Sam?
Seth: got it
Jeff Yates: Are you carrying your cell phone all the time with you now?
Sam: Yeah, I'm carrying my cell phone. um Be careful with ah car keys. I did another downwind in France two years ago, and yeah, it was a really nice downwind, but my car keys were electronic, and I had a waterproof pocket that was not waterproof.
Seth: but
Sam: And I arrived to my car. It was nearly the night coming. I was two hours away from my house where I have the over key.
Jeff Yates: d
Sam: And it was actually my dad's car.
Jeff Yates: oh
Sam: And obviously, it stopped working.
Seth: ah
Sam: And then you are feeling a bit stupid. bit And obviously, I could turn out the mechanical part of the key and enter that way.
Seth: but
Sam: um But still, I lost the key. I had to pay another another one.
Jeff Yates: Ding, ding. Ding, ding. Yep. Yeah, those electronic keys are expensive to replace nowadays too.
Sam: Yeah, but it's definitely like be very cautious with the waterproof ah gear because some say they are waterproof, but you will find very crap stuff on the market.
Jeff Yates: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeff Yates: Right.
Seth: um Other stuff, impact vests. You know, if you've got a we and an exit zone that you don't know, if you're gonna have to walk across an oyster field, mine, maybe maybe having some slippers or something attached to you or booties or something would be good too.
Sam: Yes.
Seth: um I use a Garmin GPS tracker. I know that iPhone, i Apple watches and Samsungs and all of these have features that, that you can use to track or even make calls or send out emergency messages with bright colors.
Sam: Yeah, the watch the watches are really important. I do have ah my watch as well. I think it's better than having the phone actually. And something we didn't mention is if you really do a big downwind, you have to get some ah food and water with you.
Sam: So the bag is very important and at least some chocolate bars because ah you get so tired very fast in the end.
Seth: good
Jeff Yates: Right.
Seth: yeah
Seth: And exposure too, depending on your elements, even in tropical environments here, subtropical, you know, uh, I got really cold towards the end of one of our runs recently and started to cramp and things like that.
Seth: So you got to take those things into account as well.
Sam: yeah ah Yeah, when you're tired, you get very cold, no?
Seth: Good.
Seth: Hmm.
Seth: Well, Sam, tell us tell us where we where are we talking to you right now and tell us a little bit about yourself and then we'll wrap things up with ah what did we learn here? And i I just want to point out too that Phil's voice there, he kind of reminded me of Bob Ross.
Seth: that was I was waiting for him to paint some happy trees, but we got a ah ah whale breach in this story there.
Sam: yes
Sam: Yeah, it was true, yeah.
Seth: ah Yeah, tell us about yourself real quick, Sam.
Sam: Yeah, so here I'm sitting in the office. This is actually the place where I design the And just that the in the other room is the the workshop. So I'm in Tarifa, Spain at the moment. And the we at Onyx are producing local foils. And I'm ah really pushing all my best to to try to make a brand that is as sustainable as possible.
Sam: in a way that we not only produce as sustainable as possible, but we also recycle, upcycle ah and also get in the local chain where people are able to work in Europe to make hydrofoils and to live out of it. So this is really my my goal at Onyx. It's not really about pure performance. And this is something obviously you need to get ah extreme good quality. But I think a lot of brands are doing it on the market at the moment. And I will definitely not say, yeah, we are the best for this or for that. It's not the point.
Sam: my points is Let's do things differently and let's try to push this ah social ah value chain to the maximum. Let's try to meet with, for example, next Tuesday I'm meeting with a school in Soto Grande with 100 kids of 12 years old and we're gonna run four different workshops where they're gonna learn how to do hydrofoil, literally build a tail wing with us.
Seth: cool Awesome.
Jeff Yates: Awesome man.
Sam: And this is um an example of how I want to set a production center in Europe, because I cannot understand that Europeans all want to, you know, we are all getting in a society where we don't do things with our ends. And to be a workshop guy can be seen in Europe as a very and sex an unsuccessful story.
Sam: ah For an engineer like me, I was in engineering school, like you will find teachers, they will tell you, this is a failure if you are doing things with your hands, you want to be in the net and ah in an office doing things on your computer, have a good salary. And I think, especially with all the social issues we have in Europe and in all over the world in general,
Sam: We must and we have to find some ways to to offer ah jobs in the hydrofoil industry to every everyone. And this is really my mission is how to make a hydrofoil brand that is really cool to write, but that that can be as sustainable as possible for the environment and also for the people.
Jeff Yates: Well, I know we've talked a little bit about it before, but ah yeah, some of the examples that I think are awesome is ah basically, number one, every basically every foil and most boards are manufactured in Asia somewhere, right?
Jeff Yates: ah that's that Not only does that ah use a lot of energy just getting it to the consumer, right? It takes a lot of shipping and everything else freight.
Jeff Yates: Air freight whatever to get to the consumer, but it's also ah They're not Necessarily conscious about as conscious about how much waste they're using right so they're using aluminum right to make their molds where you guys have have ah Using a hundred kilos of aluminum to make a mold where you guys are using just a few pounds few kilos ah of a Yeah, tell me about your how you do your molds a little bit again.
Sam: Yeah.
Sam: yeah Yeah, exactly.
Jeff Yates: I
Sam: So is is one example and when you accumulate them, it's a lot. So for example, for the molds, and the brands will use 100 -tillow aluminum molds to make a a front wing, whereas we use ash wood.
Sam: So ash is a very strong wood, very durable wood. and um we yeah it's about 10 kilos maximum for the biggest wood molds that we have and it's super durable so 100 % wood it's been ma machined by ah the CNC in Spain a year actually and um if you do a good post -treatment on the surface and if you do ah take care of the the mold, if you do a good manual tension, it's ah totally possible to do a ah good fair amount of production in ah of one model and at the moment I talk to you
Sam: All our molds, they are looking fine and they are still able to produce foils. And of course, I'm not going to tell you I sell 200 foils of one model per year, not like other brands are doing maybe, but This is not the point as well.
Sam: I don't want to be in a spot where we overproduce and also we push people to overconsume because um yeah the the the goal with Onyx and with our exchange program is that you don't accumulate false in your garage, but you would rather bring it back to us
Jeff Yates: Right.
Sam: We will recondition it and we will give it to other users that really need the product that you don't need anymore. Whereas you can get on the one you need and you can write it and have fun on it, you know.
Seth: So a beginner can come to you, buy a foil set, beat it up, learn how to use it, and then send it back to you. It'll get reconditioned and then possibly put back into circulation with a new brand new rider.
Seth: And then the original rider gets a ah discount on an upgraded set.
Sam: Yeah.
Seth: Amazing.
Sam: Yeah, with the discount, we we have some available on the website. And um yeah, like, for example, you can get some files for 300 euros. It's an nearly half price with the public price on a new product. And then you is is really, ah we recondition it here. I personally take care of checking it out before it's going back to the markets. So you really know that there is ah some no problems with it and You can get to half the price which is lower than most of the brands when you compare even with some cheap brands So I think this is a ah good economics Solution for the customers because as soon as you change your foil more than two or three time you can be definitely ah Saving out a lot of money
Jeff Yates: right
Jeff Yates: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
Jeff Yates: And you you say the performance isn't your key. But Sam, the performance is there. You got you guys got great foils.
Sam: yeah thank you we
Jeff Yates: i mean
Sam: which
Jeff Yates: Very impressed. I'm very impressed with the performance of your foils. I mean, they have great low end, they have great speed. ah I mean, yeah, the we both Seth and I have been riding.
Jeff Yates: Seth has been riding the Osprey a lot. And ah the speeds that he can get, the low end speed that he can get on that thing is ah pretty amazing.
Sam: Yeah, thank you.
Seth: These are beautiful foils.
Jeff Yates: I mean, we were just out in 10 knots.
Sam: Yeah.
Jeff Yates: I think you were just out in 10 knots yesterday.
Seth: yeah
Jeff Yates: or less than 10 knots yesterday on the 950. And yeah, it's it's got quite low.
Seth: Even on the 750, with an efficient wind wing, I was riding an eight to 10 knots on my mid -length board in in with ah with the 750 foil on there.
Jeff Yates: and
Seth: so they're They're really, there they got great top end, great low end, all of that stuff. But that that model that you've created is a high road that I know makes it difficult for you all as a business to be.
Seth: profitable, but there's something so much more valuable to what you're doing. I know that doesn't help pay the bills, per se, but ah I don't know of any other, if there's any listeners out there that know of any other brands that are that are letting you upgrade your gear, I'd love to hear about it. If there's any other brands that are ah publishing their specs exactly as they are and with total ah upfront clarity, your your stall speeds, your high -end speeds and um ah what you make everything. I mean, you guys don't have any secrets. You're you're you're totally exposing um the good things that you're doing. I don't know anybody else that's doing that.
Jeff Yates: Have you seen anybody else starting to starting to ah follow you ah your model at all.
Sam: and ah Well, actually on ah Facebook groups, I see a lot of individual users um that are taking inspiration of what we do. So on the, I think it's the hydrophile builder group or something like that.
Jeff Yates: Right.
Sam: There is a hydrophile builder group on Facebook, and I can see a lot of people making tailwinds, at least a lot of tailwinds made out of 3D printed molds. um and i I think that a lot of people are looking at what we are doing and trying to reproduce, even do better sometimes. i mean They try to take inspiration and build by themselves. But to answer your question, ah except from these very individual users,
Sam: I really don't see any brands pushing in the directions we are pushing. And actually, I see the contrary.
Seth: Yeah sure.
Sam: I see some brands that we're trying to produce in Europe that are coming back to Asia. And I don't want to say names. We are not here for this. But we I think the industry is not um in a very good spot at the moment economically speaking and it's a hard time for brands to also push local production because for sure it costs more money to pay me and to pay a my colleagues that are in living in in Spain and in Europe than paying over salaries in ah Eastern Asia and this is the
Jeff Yates: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
Sam: just the reality at the end of the day. And also I think a lot of brands, just saying all the brands, they are they are really different businesses. there' What they have to do to be successful is to do a lot of marketing and ah a lot of visibility, a lot of contents. The production for them is something they don't see by themselves. um They will send a design to a producer, they will obviously travel there to check how it's going, but
Sam: This is not what they are doing. This is not the main capacity of the job, of the business. ah My core competence here, our core competence is production. This is what I focus my days on. um So yeah, I don't see, I don't know so many other brands that are pushing in these directions at the moment.
Seth: Yeah.
Jeff Yates: Yeah, unfortunately marketing has become such a huge part of it that now it's kind of like the main focus of everybody. It's awesome that you guys are really leading the way though on your attention to detail and your and and sustainability and and and getting with the community.
Jeff Yates: I mean, that's what's also awesome. We've seen where you guys have done just bringing in groups.
Seth: yeah
Jeff Yates: Hey, you want to make a foil? Come on in. That's awesome.
Sam: yeah Yeah, they can make it super, they are super happy.
Seth: There's something very good.
Sam: They are like kids every time ah people are coming here. And from every age, I got 10 years old girl, she was super cute. And I got also 60 plus dudes that were feeling like kids, just building the foil with me.
Sam: So, and this is ah something that a lot of people enjoy. I can see i can see in the eye of the of the people that they enjoy it. so i i For sure, I know that there must be a lot of people that are that would be happy, especially in Europe, a lot of people that would be happy to produce foils as a job, to be honest.
Seth: This is great and there is some there's something extremely satisfying about making something with your hands that that you can go play with and that functions and works and has such aesthetic beauty to it as well with materials that maybe most people would never even imagine working with.
Jeff Yates: That's awesome.
Seth: The other thing too that that I wanted to add is that that I often tell people now is the best time
Sam: Yeah.
Seth: that ever so far in foiling history to get into it because the market is flooded, which is terrible for the industry, but it's good for people getting into it.
Sam: Yeah.
Seth: So when when I first started just a couple of years ago, I had to really piece things together and really rub my nickels to make something happen and pull together a Franken foil set, you know, just to be able to learn. And now not only designs better productions more, um but there's a ton of stuff out there, which is great for the beginner, again, bad for the industry. And I wanted to tag onto that. I wonder if anybody out there is interested in trying to start their own kind of a refurbishing center that's maybe not even just brand centric that they can refurbish any kind of foils and keep putting them out there because landfill issue is a big deal where we are and we don't want to put anything in that here, let alone anywhere else in the world.
Sam: Yeah.
Sam: that's ah That's what we are doing here.
Seth: Okay.
Sam: So a lot of people, every day, they bring me some foils to repair. ah I mean, I don't know if you will see here the scratches. um This one is very small.
Seth: Yeah.
Sam: The front wing was more. But I do have a lot of people in Tarifa coming to me every day. And I actually refurbish the, all the brands.
Sam: um and
Jeff Yates: I hope you're charging them a little more if they're not ah onyx.
Sam: ahex experience know But, you know, actually, it's when you have ah the good varnish and the good sandpaper and you know how to sand, sometimes it's really not difficult to to take to recondition a foil.
Seth: ah
Seth: Yeah.
Sam: Maybe sometime, ah okay, if it was a big scratch here, I would need to take the logo out when it's sanding. But eventually the foil will look perfect for at least to be used.
Sam: maybe not I don't have maybe the F1 sticker obviously with me, but um at least the foil is great to go.
Seth: Yeah.
Sam: And I do recondition a lot of foils.
Seth: Awesome.
Sam: And maybe in the future I'm thinking to push even more this concept of of ah pimping the foils of everyone. so Yeah, this is definitely something I'm thinking about. so And I'm also pushing in a direction where I'm in touch with labs in France at the moment where we are looking at how to separate the carbon fiber from the resin.
Sam: um after it's been polymer polymerized so for example if this will be broken now like just in half I think I mean I'm in touch with some people that are telling me that we would be able to separate the carbon fiber and the resin using a special resin and that we could get the fiber um not as a cloth where it's already sued but we could get it as a a kind of forged carbon that we can use for be recycling the carbon.
Seth: Repurpose.
Sam: and
Seth: Interesting. Wow, really cool. well yeah Amazing.
Sam: So it's definitely a lot of things now.
Seth: Sam, thanks so much. How do people find you if they want to get in touch?
Sam: So if you if you go on my Instagram, you can go to Samcurrents or OnyxFoils. And also if you go on the website, you can get my WhatsApp number. It's my personal number, so feel free to contact me.
Seth: Wow.
Sam: And yeah, for sure I spend a lot of time with the customers and I try to find the most appropriate seed products for what some people are looking for.
Jeff Yates: And you have a website, Onyx Enterprises.
Sam: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, go on Onyx Enterprises, Onyx Falls works as well. And the yeah, we try to always update it because we are doing a lot of different things every month. so And ah for example, every month we get a new adaptation between brands, new fuselage that fits this falls. So um yeah, we try to stay up to date. And if you have some questions, feel free to ask us.
Seth: Awesome. Thanks so much, Sam. This has been really cool and thanks for sharing your first time story. I i know there's a lot of people out there that have interesting first time stories, walks of shames, things like that, but I don't know if we're gonna get any other oyster farm minefields.
Seth: So that was fantastic.
Sam: i know
Sam: But I hope definitely for other stories.
Seth: Yeah, this is a ah great start to hopefully some more stories coming down the line.
Sam: Yeah. Thank you guys.
Jeff Yates: Yeah, thanks a lot, Sam. Love what you're doing. Can't wait to for it to spread even further and see what you guys got got cooking as well. It's awesome stuff.
Sam: Thank you very much.
Seth: yeah All right, we'll cut it off there
