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To Nylene's great displeasure, Nym talks about dolls for way too long. Reaching back to ancient humans all the way to today, we've used miniature versions of people for various purposes all over the world. We look at how we are predisposed to be cautious of these nearly life like figures. Nylene gets very uncomfortable.
Enter the Nightmare for show notes, sources, transcripts, and more!
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Nim and Nyleen's Nightmare Cottage'
00:00:25
Speaker
Welcome to Nim and Nyleen's Nightmare Cottage, where we explore history, mysteries, and other tales of the macabre. I'm Nim. And I'm Nyleen. Let the nightmare begin.
00:00:41
Speaker
Disturbing and mature content to follow. Into the nightmare, if you dare.
Exploring the Dark Side of Peter Pan
00:00:52
Speaker
I think I mentioned that I watched, tried to watch Peter Pan with Sebastian. Yes. And it was really funny because I had completely forgotten that the crocodile, the reason that they could tell the crocodile was coming was because he had the the clock clock in his, yeah, and take it. know that it's like,
00:01:14
Speaker
a whole horror story because like it has to do with like his shadow and stuff like that. Right. Yeah. Peter Pan, like for real, the scary one is like. Right. Yes. It's pretty, I mean, it's pretty grim. Anyways.
00:01:25
Speaker
But they are pretty dark.
Nim's Atlas Obsession and Library Love
00:01:27
Speaker
So in my research this week, I think I told you I've been reading the Atlas Obscura book. Yes. I've been getting so into it. And I know it's online. you can just technically look at it.
00:01:38
Speaker
But like there's something about it just being more focused. And I appreciate not having the rabbit hole in the book. we we've recently together been re-exploring libraries quite a bit and it's been so fun it's been stupid fun like i have been having a blast with it yes everybody should patronize their library no really though yeah like they honestly have a lot of really cool resources there like the artist has like a sewing center There's a whole craft section. You can check out craft supplies. You can use their space to do crafts in. Yeah, you can just sit in a room.
00:02:11
Speaker
Yeah. Just because you want to. Just because you would just want somewhere quiet to go, there you go. It's free. Do it. So anyways, when I was getting into the Atlas Obscura, I've been coming across so many things that I thought I knew what they were.
The Mystery of Rat Kings
00:02:28
Speaker
So what do you think of when I say Rat King? i think of ah the Nutcracker. Oh, the nutcracker. I forgot about the, was he a rat or a mouse? I think he was. He was a rat. Yeah, that's the first thing I think of. But there's also rat king and ninja turtles and fairy tales, of course. There's few. So very, fantastical images.
00:02:51
Speaker
so very very fantastical images they're they're not nothing real oh definitely not no i definitely go fantasy with it yeah so apparently a rat king is a is a real thing um it's the name for a collection of rats whose tails have become intertwined oh yeah yeah for whatever god forsaken reason and now they're trapped that way forever with some without like some kind of outside intervention I have seen those depicted in things. I didn't know they were called rat kings. Yes. So, yeah, they almost look like a wheel because the rats are all stuck together by their... Or a crown, if you will. Yeah.
00:03:31
Speaker
Now, whether it's a real thing that happens in nature... or is something that a horrible person does to rats, that's a point of contention in the scientific community. We do know they're real, like that the actual, like... Like it's been seen, it yeah happens. Yeah, yeah in yeah there's there's mummified preserved specimens that they found over the years, usually in black rats.
00:03:52
Speaker
And the earliest example was dated back to 1564. And you'll find many alcohol preserved specimens in museums across Europe as well. The ones that have been studied, they show signs that the poor animals were alive at the time that they were entangled.
00:04:07
Speaker
So they formed like scar tissue over time. and So they stayed that way for a while? Yeah, like, I mean, at least at least a day, enough time to, like, form, like, a callus or something. so sad. Yeah. So the unfortunate thing is with there being anywhere from six to 32 rats entangled all at once, they would eventually starve to death because they can't move around to catch food.
00:04:32
Speaker
um They're rarely found alive, especially in modern times, with the most recent live ones having been found 2005 and In Estonia and Russia.
00:04:43
Speaker
Oh. Yeah. In a paraphrased quote from Andrei Milyutin, curator of the University of Tartu's Natural History Museum, they actually have one of the specimens there.
00:04:54
Speaker
So he says rat kings can form when nests or tunnels, they get overcrowded. So when rats are sleeping in a nest and they happen to have something really sticky on their bodies or their tails, the ends of their tails can cement together.
00:05:09
Speaker
And then the substance is dry. And then they wake up, they panic, they start pulling in different directions, and then they end up nodding themselves even further. Apparently, it's more prevalent in black mice since their tails are very skinny and long.
00:05:24
Speaker
There's also cases of their tails getting wrapped up in like thread or horse hair. While some zoologists are skeptical of this occurring naturally in nature, they're also quick to point out how difficult it would be to nod up the tails of that many live rats.
00:05:39
Speaker
Not to mention the fact that this was a well-observed occurrence in nature with squirrels. So, you know, the which are part of the rodent family. So they've seen it happen to squirrels.
00:05:51
Speaker
And so they're like, I mean, it could happen to mice too. I mean, have you ever just taken Christmas lights? move them from one spot to another yeah and suddenly they are so tangled. That's fair.
00:06:03
Speaker
i mean, i that's, that's
Dolls: Phobias and Histories
00:06:05
Speaker
so sad. I know. That's just what I was thinking. Cause like when you're trying to like untangle that, it just seems to get worse. And like that, that's yeah. They're all moving me in different directions. Poor little butts. oh The little floss butts.
00:06:16
Speaker
Oh, you know what that reminds me of? a Cinderella. oh huh? Gus, Gus. Gus, Gus. Gus, Gus. I just want to start by apologizing.
00:06:31
Speaker
No. We had a conversation about this. I want everybody to know. really thought you were like, I know. And and i I just, i'm I am sorry, but we did talk about it and I asked permission and I want everybody to know I asked permission. No, I'm taking off my glasses.
00:06:52
Speaker
She's actually closing her eyes. She doesn't want to see my face right now. Because if you've been listening, you might know that Nyleen absolutely hates dolls. Like, I don't mind like Barbies and stuff like that.
00:07:06
Speaker
The childlike dolls. Yeah, like baby doll. Why do they look so grown up, but they're baby size? Yeah. Yeah. So we are going to talk about dolls today. Gross.
00:07:20
Speaker
You doll aficionados out there. Silly. Silly people. You're not really... There's a whole bunch of dolls, aficionados. I found them when I was looking this That's fine. They need to know. This is a silly thing.
00:07:34
Speaker
i can't can't deal with it. i Like how? They're scary. Haunted. Haunted. So how how does how deeply does it unsettle you? Or is it like a a primal fear like it is with clowns? or is it just Or is it just like an uncomfortable thing? just uncomfortable. It's like, I think I told you I had that nightmare when I was little with dolls where like i went out on the patio and there was like a doll.
00:08:03
Speaker
And I went to go pick it up and suddenly I felt a pressure on the back of my neck. And then my perspective changed. And I was the doll on the ground looking up at myself walking.
00:08:14
Speaker
And so ever since then, like that is, I know that it's an irrational fear. And I know that's not going to happen. But also like I don't want to touch it. Yeah, you don't have to like it. That's fine. Yeah. You don't have to like it.
00:08:28
Speaker
um I will not be showing you any pictures of dolls. Gotcha. I used play Barbies with my sister all the time. Yeah, I was going to ask if there was dolls that don't bother you. Aside from Barbies. Is it is anything that isn't like child size? yeah Yeah, it's not humanoid. I think it's the humanoid aspect.
00:08:44
Speaker
Okay. The small. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Like it's it's the small, creepy child. I don't know that paired with Chucky. It just ruined my life. Okay.
00:08:56
Speaker
Whole life ruined. Here I am, ruined from of All right. Well, let's dig into why you're ruined by all of this. For at least 40,000 years, we as humans have created miniature versions of ourselves and projected significance, importance, and actual personas onto them.
00:09:14
Speaker
I feel like we do that to everything. It's mostly things with a face, but it's this instinct to see of doll as something that's potentially alive. That's what makes it kind of both fascinating and scary at the same time. And it's almost entirely why pediophobia is actually a thing. that what it's called? what it's called. I hate it.
00:09:31
Speaker
Horrible word. yeah But that's that is what the phobia, the the fear of dolls is called. And we have that a diagnosable thing because people. um Because people like you exist, she says, pointing at me.
00:09:46
Speaker
No. Well, not exactly that. No, it started way earlier than that. So let's let's kind of go back and and we'll look at some of the ones before, like how we got to Chucky and Annabelle. Okay, so before Chucky, people were still afraid dolls. Right. Got it.
00:10:02
Speaker
Well, because we started using them as like protective charms and harvest deity representations. like I can see like a totem, but like not a doll. I feel like a doll is symbolic of a child. It's symbolic of a being. It's symbolic of a... So it really does kind of depend on your definition of a doll.
00:10:20
Speaker
For most of my research purposes, I was looking for human shaped figures created by humans. Yeah, like I don't have a problem with like a little felt voodoo doll or anything Well, some of the earliest examples of human-shaped figurines were found in the German cave Hohlefels, which is a paleolithic archaeological site that has produced really incredible early human artifacts, including musical instruments. Oh, this was the one that had like little stone dolls, yeah carved dolls, right? Yes. And see that stuff, I'm okay with.
00:10:50
Speaker
Well, and that's why I was saying, depending on your definition of doll, this may not fit it. These weren't used for play, but rather for either human or deity representation for a spiritual purpose. For the first human representations that were meant for play or teaching, we need to look at ancient Egypt as far as ones that we can actually trace back. It's it's hard because they're usually made out of cloth or plants or what things that deteriorate over time. and So it's going to be real hard to find anything much older than that. And it's actually amazing that we have anything that old.
00:11:16
Speaker
But the ancient Egypt ones, the earliest ones we have are from 2500 BCE. so Do they have faces? Egyptian dolls? Some of them had carved faces, yes. I'm just wondering when... I know that there are some, I believe, Amish communities and some like... Several communities do faceless dolls, yeah. And so I just wonder, because I know that they follow like old older religious teachings. I just wonder how far back that goes and when the separation between faceless and not started.
00:11:46
Speaker
That's definitely community to community. Then there's so many really fascinating uses of dolls throughout so many different cultures. It was really difficult to narrow down which ones I was going to cover. So it's anybody who wants to look into like non-scary doll stuff. There's a lot of really great folklore around dolls that is not scary at all. Like it is not meant to be spooky in any way.
00:12:07
Speaker
We just kind of get there because we're people and we do that. So something that's interesting is that a culture of civilization doesn't introduce play for children until a certain level of general prosperity is is accomplished yeah ah for enough people. that's That's fair because, I mean, otherwise you're just teaching your children how to work. Yeah, they're unfinished adults, basically. they're How can I get you to help? Exactly. Like, what what layer of of responsibility can I add now? yeah Once community technology and civil infrastructure prop up enough people to breathe a little bit, there's a chance to put more thought into how a person experiences childhood.
00:12:40
Speaker
Dolls, among other things, were introduced to teach. There's also several clear examples of humans using dolls to ward off negative situations and spirits. In what way? Because there's nothing positive about that. Well, okay, so in 7th century CE, we see examples of the Hitagata dolls in Japan.
00:12:57
Speaker
These were made of paper or wood and carved, drawn, and painted to look like a person. These were sent to float away down the river or burned with the intent of the doll absorbing whatever evil or negative thing has come their way. Uh-huh, uh-huh, see? Absorbing evil. And totems to absorb evil. And then you burn it or drown it. Yeah. And then if you don't, what happens?
00:13:15
Speaker
They're evil. Look, I thought it was a beautiful sentiment until you said that they absorb evil. They take the negative things and take them away. It's the same thought of like writing down all the things that are upsetting you and burning that piece of paper. Yeah, if it doesn't burn them.
00:13:30
Speaker
Well, then it's probably bigger than just a piece of paper at that point. They also, aside from using them to ward off spirits, they used them to appease deities so it won't, like, pick up some major crucial aspect of life.
00:13:44
Speaker
So later in the 1500s, Irish and English farmers had traditions around the spirit of the last sheep. Whoever harvested the last patch of grain took on the spirit of the harvest. What? They're like possessed? That's the idea. Then they, so they would craft a doll out of the last stalk, which would trap the spirit.
00:14:02
Speaker
The village would then ensure the spirit within the doll was protected and honored until spring when it was returned to the earth. This sounds like Children the Corn. This sounds like the plot to Children the Corn. I mean, they definitely got their story somewhere, right?
00:14:13
Speaker
But if the spirit was happy, the next harvest would be bountiful. So the entire village would like rally behind and taking care of this. feel like the Mayans did that as well, something similar that as well, right? ah Yeah, actually, right up next. and We're going to get into Guatemalan worry dolls from the 1700s, which there's evidence to suggest that these stem from the ancient Mayan traditions.
00:14:35
Speaker
And these worry dolls were traditionally made from wood and dressed in Guatemalan fabrics. From Antiguena Spanish Academy, this is how to use them. Quote, In private, before sleeping, you should talk to the little doll.
00:14:48
Speaker
Remember, it must be one doll only. Uh-huh, because they'll talk to each other and then they'll spread it. You should share your problems whispering to her. No one else but you and the doll should listen to your problems, says the tradition. After telling her your problem, you should say, i want to be happy, and then give her a kiss and say thank you. Uh-uh, see?
00:15:06
Speaker
Finally, you place the doll under your pillow. The little doll will take care of lightening your load and solving your problems during the night. End quote. No. See? No. It's also noted that the dolls are placed on the children's pillows to wear off nightmares and that the colors are that they're dressed in and have different intentions. That's what these are.
00:15:25
Speaker
Oh my gosh. I was like, I've seen these. And I, guys, I know this is horrible, but they remind me of like little, like voodoo dolls with faces and like, and characters like if voodoo dolls had weren't and just npcs i don't know why i'm showing them to you you know what that i know what they are yeah but these are like these are cute and they're still traditional things that you can find everywhere okay no no but they that that's just it i want you to understand there's levels to this because these look innocent and cute these look nice and then you hold them and you're like oh and then they tell you the story and you're like oh so this is like not good no
00:16:02
Speaker
supposed to help you with your problems. I know, but what are they doing? You're very suspicious. I am. Like, you can't put that bad into the world. Like, that's how the grudge is formed.
00:16:17
Speaker
Just manifesting that into into existence. Okay, well, in a slightly less twisted version of that, do you remember when we did when I covered Baba Yaga and I told the story of beautiful Vasilisa?
00:16:30
Speaker
So that was the same situation. She had this doll she got from her mother. Okay. And she took it with her everywhere and whispered all of her troubles to it. And when she was in a bind, she would ask the doll for help and the doll would help her out. No. Yes. is it talking back see that She's not talking back. She's just solving all the problems.
00:16:48
Speaker
And how though? It's so suspicious. It's not supposed to be sentient. That means that they have their own, their own agency. All right. Well, so kind of leaning more into what you are familiar with, all's become much more commonplace as children during and after Enlightenment got to have some semblance of childhood rather than just training to be an adult. That's fair.
00:17:10
Speaker
So kind of starting in the 1600s, we start to see the shift in perspective of recognizing the innocence of a child. The Industrial Revolution tried to mess this up, but the Victorian era brought in regulation and we were able to legally protect children in many parts of the world. Yeah, you say that, but you know they only gave little girls dolls so that they could prepare us for motherhood.
Dolls in Horror and Culture
00:17:29
Speaker
Oh, 100%. It wasn't for play.
00:17:31
Speaker
Well, I mean, it depends on your class, though. That's true. Because Victorian dolls, when you hear the the phrase Victorian dolls, probably evokes the porcelain doll, right? Yeah, like the creepy ones with the messed up face. Exactly, yeah. They like look adult, but they're child-sized, right?
00:17:45
Speaker
Well, those were all the rage and they taught young girls of class about fashion and status. And then everybody else, know, the working class always finds a way. So we made ours out of cloth and wood and things like that. And they were, of course, adult training tools.
00:18:01
Speaker
They taught the lower class girls about caretaking and responsibilities. There was even funeral kits you could get for dolls that had tiny doll coffins um and mourning clothes because, of course, women take care of both And the death. So all training tools.
00:18:13
Speaker
So for thousands of years, dolls weren't creepy at all. Unless you're you, apparently. been creeped out by all of this. to I'm very just... No, you're just constantly cautious about this specific thing, and that's fine.
00:18:26
Speaker
But they were teachers. They were protectors. They were stand-ins for gods, vessels for wishes, and companions for children. Slowly they evolved from this tiny little figure that'll keep evil away to this little figure that is evil. Because it's absorbing. But that's kind of a dramatic turnaround, no?
00:18:42
Speaker
Something I think is interesting is how humans just instinctively project a personality or some kind of an intention on anything that has a face. Yep. Are you familiar with pareidolia? Yes, where you just like see faces. In everything. Yeah. ah That's me.
00:18:56
Speaker
I mean, that's all of us. It's basically the reason your car looks angry, your electrical outlet looks shocked, and your ceiling is judging you. This applies to things like wood grain and clouds. but And fan man.
00:19:08
Speaker
And fan man. But when something not human has such a human-like face, it does interesting things to our psychology. Have you ever accidentally kicked a stuffy and apologized? Yes, every time. Oh my gosh. And like, it's really bad because like Sebastian's dollies, if I accidentally kick one or he like throws it in the corner and puts it upside down, I get really scared. And I like write it and I'm like, sorry.
00:19:32
Speaker
just in case not that I believe it but you know but so if it was a doll with a face maybe it's also thinking and judging and yeah plotting exactly they're close enough to human that our brains start filling in the blanks that aren't actually there is it looking at me did its expression change another twisty thing to think about is the difference between how a child would feel about a doll coming to life versus how an adult would Um, nope.
00:19:59
Speaker
Still horrifying for me both ways. Well, yeah, but you, you know, Toy Story, like, was horrifying. Millions of children love this. I did not understand why anybody, like, I would, that honestly scared me of my stuffed animals more and I would try to catch them all the time. Oh, what was that movie?
00:20:16
Speaker
Little Princess. Little Princess. She would try to catch her dolls moving. Yes. Like running down the hall and like seeing if she could run and catch them.
00:20:28
Speaker
I used to do that. Well, most kids would love for their companions to come to life. Not you. But a lot of kids really would, like for their best friend that they carry with them all the time. not be real. Why is that not suspicious to anybody? When they're kids, they still have that imagination.
00:20:48
Speaker
had imagination and fright, I guess. I just was born scared. Okay, well, you were born that way and then the rest of us when we become adults, we would also shit our pants if this actually if a doll actually came to life in front of us. This was explored in Sigmund Freud's The Uncanny, which can be found in its entirety in the show notes.
00:21:06
Speaker
Nice. What is that? What? Oh, it's it's a paper that talks about the and Uncanny Valley as a whole. Okay. Yeah, it it just, from Simon Freud's perspective as the legendary psychologist that he is and his insight into all of that. And we kind of touch on a lot of it that I recommend. It's not really long and it's it's actually pretty digestible. so Nice. Yeah.
00:21:28
Speaker
Well, I mean, it's a translation, so I guess maybe the translation I read was good because it's original German. But that's the one that's in the show notes, so... but But that's kind of part of what's so wild about it is that the certainty that dolls cannot come to life is what makes it more sinister if they do.
00:21:44
Speaker
Pixar spent decades trying to convince us our toys secretly love us and horror has spent even longer suggesting us that they're waiting until we fall asleep. See, you say that, but I don't know. Was anyone else watching the Toy Story movies? Because there was like a literal fight going on. obsolete. We're obsolete.
00:21:59
Speaker
And no, there's still hope in the world. And it's like, no, kid, get it together. Like, I mean, obviously plot has to exist, right?
00:22:10
Speaker
But you're forgetting about the messed up toys next door that Sid had. The next door neighbor. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, those were actually kind of scary looking toys. Yeah. Those were frightening. Yeah.
00:22:23
Speaker
If a doll came to life in front of you, i would die. I would I would die. i would. do What if it was really not evil? No, I don't. I wouldn't give that opportunity. i would just die. okay Like, I don't think you understand like how much my brain has already decided what would happen. Then cannot move past that.
00:22:44
Speaker
But that's just the end. of it That's the end. End of the line. Yep. I would have a heart attack and die. I just know for a fact brain aneurysm something. Okay. Well, we talked about your kind of doll origins with your dream. Wait, what about you?
00:22:58
Speaker
Wait, what? What would you do if a doll came to life in front of you? This isn't about me. No, I'm asking you a question. I know. um I would assume I'm having a psychotic break and then I would probably try to roll with it and see what happened. oh my God, you would end up.
00:23:17
Speaker
Being the one in the movie, like killing all of your friends because you followed what the doll told you and thought it was a dream the whole time. I don't think that I would do that.
00:23:30
Speaker
I would see what the doll wanted and then. Oh, i so we're going to see what it wants. I just I mean, if there's a talking doll, yeah i kind of like just my curiosity is going to see where this is going to go. second. doll can talk that means anything is possible also how does it have such good vocabulary how long has it been sitting there listening well i'm gonna assume it's probably like possessed right like it's a entity that has infiltrated this vessel there you go possessed or something possessed is the problem yeah oh yeah it's almost always an entity i i think i get into that sorry i got scared no don't get scared there's no dolls and
00:24:08
Speaker
If there's dolls in here, your fault. Stop talking. We're recording a podcast. I can't. Okay, well. Sorry, this closet is my safe space and you're ruining It's the nightmare cottage. What do you expect?
00:24:21
Speaker
Okay, so, yeah. So, my earliest memory of dolls in a scary capacity, I remember seeing a movie called Dolly Dearest.
00:24:31
Speaker
I was pretty young, maybe 12 or 13. twelve or thirteen You just looked at just the cover? Yeah. Nope. Well, it was the first time I'd really registered dolls could be scary. But how old were you? think um I was maybe 12.
00:24:45
Speaker
But I think the reason is is because the doll that's in the movie looks just like my mother's Patty Playpal doll. Okay, see, no, that's not nice. So for anybody who doesn't know what a Patty Playpaw doll is, will tell you, these were dolls that were made in the nineteen fifty s that were like inches tall or eighty nine centimeters So that's, yeah, that's so that's like an upsetting height.
00:25:10
Speaker
because It is. Because, like, why is it just standing in the corner? Like, Sebastian was doing this. He was running around the house doing giggly, creepy little tiny creature things and, like, leaving things places. And I'm like, I can't. This is the doll thing that I can't deal with in movies when the dolls start doing that. But he's real. It's ah You hope.
00:25:32
Speaker
You hope he is okay But yeah. so this is You only do this to just hear me spiral.
00:25:43
Speaker
I feel bad. I'm committed with the full audio of all of these. oh my God. But yeah, so that 35 inch height, it's not baby size. It's not person size. It's the exact right height where in low light your brain goes, is that a child standing on the highway? Yep.
00:25:59
Speaker
They could wear the same clothes as little girls and they looked pretty realistic. and Like I said, mom still has hers from when she was a kid. She had that when she was very little. And somehow Dolly Dearest didn't actually ruin Patty for me.
00:26:09
Speaker
But it did make me aware. i never thought she was haunted or anything, but I always kind of look at her sideways a little bit. I know your mom rolls her eyes at me every time when I'm just like looking at her sideways. i'm like Mom's like, oh, yeah okay.
00:26:23
Speaker
Come on. She's like, leave her alone. Leave my baby alone So she's had that baby longer than she's had me. Yeah. Well, before Chucky, scary dolls were already part of horror.
00:26:36
Speaker
There are earlier works, but these are the ones that I could still find to consume. The Ghosts Doll by Frances Marion Crawford from 1886 is a public domain short story and a link is available in the show notes. It's one of the first examples of a spirit taking over a doll in fiction.
00:26:52
Speaker
In the horror boom of the 1930s, we got 1936's The Devil's Doll about a mad scientist who shrank people into doll form to do his evil bidding. i bought this, but I haven't watched it yet, so I'll have to watch it. every time you come up yes Another classic short, Algernon Blackwood's The Doll from 1946, tells the tale of a man who gifted his daughter a wax doll that turns out to be evil. And I've actually read several versions of that same story, and it's kind fun. Yeah.
00:27:18
Speaker
I've seen all of the Chucky movies up through Bride of Chucky. Okay, see, that's where it got silly. it's like Exactly, yes. When the bride got introduced, I was like, okay, this is just cute and hilarious and stupid and kind of scary because, you know. Just because of what it is. Horror, yeah. Yeah.
00:27:33
Speaker
And well, in no shade to anything that's after that. I just haven't gotten to any of it. No, no, no, no. But these were always too comically coded to scare me. Exactly. But the Child's Play movies really brought the fear of dolls into the mainstream.
00:27:44
Speaker
What's clever about Child's Play is that Chucky doesn't actually rely on the doll itself being inherently creepy because he moves, he has a mouth, he has a personality. It's very clear that he's alive. And it's interesting because it is one of the few horror villains that I see actually getting damaged over time. Right, yeah. Yeah. All of that kind of makes him less, at least to me, and psychologically less unsettling than something like Annabelle. Yeah.
00:28:09
Speaker
Especially because the original doll was completely. Yes. And I had a Raggedy Ann doll when I was a kid. And in fact, I still have her. We had, I think, probably an off brand version.
00:28:21
Speaker
too if I'm going to be real about it but I still have her somewhere. And honestly that one didn't really scare me. ah She kind of did. She's not quite as realistic looking so it's it probably was easier to get a pass. That one scared me though because I would have night terrors about A similar little creature that would I remember I would run to my parents' room I'd get scared.
00:28:40
Speaker
And I would get in their bed and I'd get in between them. I'd put my legs up trying not to see it. And then she would just like kind of tilt her head out from an outside edge and just wave. And I'd go, nope, nope, nope, nope.
00:28:55
Speaker
I can understand why that would be a nope. Yes, yes. Your face. Yes. But
The Psychology of Doll Fears
00:29:02
Speaker
yeah, the truly. This is what happens when you give kids sugar for bed. Okay. Sugar milk.
00:29:07
Speaker
It was agua panela, which is sugar cane melted. in Anyways. Well, the truly horrifying scenario is when you're the only one who knows the doll is moving.
00:29:20
Speaker
Because that's almost always the formula, right? The doll moves when no one's looking. Except you and then you end up looking like you're crazy and then no one listens to you and then you die and no one knows what happened. Basically took the words off of my page.
00:29:32
Speaker
Tale as old as time. Exactly. It's a much older fear than Chucky. That's the fear that something impossible is happening and nobody believes you. Like that's that is the worst. Yes. Because are you crazy? Yeah.
00:29:43
Speaker
Or are they assholes? Somehow there is room for other major evil doll related franchises in the mainstream horror landscape. Annabelle takes almost the opposite approach like we mentioned. She does barely anything. She's mostly just there and that's worse.
00:29:58
Speaker
Her face almost never changes. She's not sprinting around with a knife. She just quietly occupies space until your own imagination destroys your constitution. And you know, i was thinking about that when I was watching... i don't know, I was watching a horror movie the other day.
00:30:10
Speaker
think it was Back Rooms. Yeah, it was Back Rooms. And I think what killed it for me... Spoilers, spoilers for anybody. you when When you see... It's almost like you're effed if you do and you're effed if you don't, right? Because if you don't ever see the entity...
00:30:26
Speaker
It's scary because you're like, it could be anything, right? Your imagination has gone wild with what it could possibly be. But it's also, that's the cheap shot. What do you mean you didn't show the entity? But then you see the entity and then it kind of, it kind of makes it less scary. You know, that's kind of a a crux in a horror over time. guess that was the thing. Yeah, exactly. The best horror always waits as long as possible to show the villain. Mm-hmm.
00:30:52
Speaker
But you're right. The reveal is not always everything you want it to be. but you know, that's that's just, you know, there's other things about it. Yeah. I haven't seen it, so. Megan, on the other hand, modernizes the whole concept. No, she just looks so silly. yeah Those are supposed to be her legs, aren't they?
00:31:11
Speaker
No. In what I saw, like, it looked like those were her legs. It was the creepiest little thing. that's so funny. That's just like the KFC guy and how his tie looks like his little legs. Oh, so that wasn't real. I don't think so.
00:31:24
Speaker
But the thing about Megan is that she's not possessed. She was built on purpose. yeah She's like a machine. Yes, but like programmed, like on purpose to be what she is. That's a very 21st century fear. Ancient people worried about spirits inhabiting dolls. We worry about software updates.
00:31:40
Speaker
Honestly, same anxiety, different operating system. So why do dolls keep coming back as horror icons? There are vampires, ghosts, werewolves, demons, and somehow the toy aisle continues to produce nightmare fuel for generation after generation.
00:31:55
Speaker
Dolls effectively function as mirrors of our own psyche, which is exactly why they remain so deeply unsettling. These figures represent one of our most ancient impulses, the drive to craft objects in our own likeness.
00:32:07
Speaker
Throughout history, we haven't just made them, we've projected entire identities onto them, granting them names, histories, and even souls. We've looked at them to serve as guardians, to guide the next generation, to absorb our deepest anxieties, and to act as vessels for the memories of those we've lost.
00:32:24
Speaker
That's an awful lot to ask for something made out of cloth and paper and plastic. Horror has always been really good at taking something comforting and twisting it just enough so you can't ever look at it the same way again.
00:32:36
Speaker
doll is supposed to look alive, but not too alive. It's supposed to look at you, but not like it's making eye contact. It's supposed to stay exactly where you left it. Once even one of these rules breaks, our brain immediately starts filling in the rest of the story.
00:32:50
Speaker
Which is probably why even if you don't have pediophobia, there's a good chance you've walked past a doll in an antique store and didn't want to look at it too hard. So I'm very sorry. i love your face. No.
00:33:02
Speaker
Honestly, it kind of helps. Oh, good. I didn't think of it a lot that way.
Cozy Horror Recommendations
00:33:12
Speaker
I do have some nightmare fuel. I have the one that I prepared and I'm going to go ahead and give it because it is doll related. It's How to Sell a Haunted House by Grady Hendrix.
00:33:24
Speaker
It is a horror novel about a girl whose family home needs to be cleaned out because parents have passed away and her and her brother are having to deal with it. And there is this room full of dolls. Gross. And it's haunted. Yes. As you would expect from that kind of situation.
00:33:41
Speaker
And ah Grady Hendrix is kind of a love him or hate him author. i love him. I read everything he comes out with. I enjoy all of it. So this was probably my favorite out of all of his, How to Sell a Haunted House.
00:33:54
Speaker
But then I've been playing this game. So I have two nightmare fuels today. And this one's kind of cozy. This will be a thing. It's called Witchwood. I know you can play it on Switch.
00:34:05
Speaker
It's Witch with a Y. W-Y-T-C-H. Is this the game you told me to download like three seconds before I snapped my laptop? It was the game I was telling you about three seconds before you snapped your laptop. Yes. It's fine. I don't feel left out or anything.
00:34:20
Speaker
Well, you have a Switch and you have an Xbox, and I am pretty sure it is on both But it's kind of an amalgamation of a lot of different folkloric fairy tales. But it is the most cozy, chill game. I tried to play this game like a year ago. I could not get into it, but I'm loving it right now because all you do is you walk around and you collect stuff and you combine it and you craft stuff and you solve problems.
00:34:41
Speaker
And the backdrop that you're doing it to are all of these basically they're fables that you're going through like with these different animals and you're teaching them lessons because you're basically the Baba Yaga. You're teaching the lessons and you're doing this to settle a debt with a goat.
00:34:56
Speaker
So ah spoil no, that's how the game starts. So you wake up in your your house and you don't remember anything and there's this goat and he tells you what's up. So anyways, that's what I've been playing. And it's so cozy. And if you listen to us for the folklore stuff, you're going to be super into it. It's very chill. I would say spooky in the way that there's some spooky iconography, but not any kind of scary anything at all.
00:35:19
Speaker
Super cute. Did you have nightmares? Yes, the movie we watched. Obsession. Obsession. yeah I think it was out in theaters recently. It might still be out in theaters, but we watched it I think, on Peacock. Yeah.
00:35:32
Speaker
And it was, listen, it was a different kind of horror. And these are going to be some spoilers real quick. So, I mean. I will cut out any any like actual plot spoilers, but if it's light, I will leave it.
00:35:47
Speaker
It's frustrating to me because the horror behind it, I feel like will be felt by most women. Oh, yeah. It's that feeling of having zero control.
00:36:00
Speaker
And I think that's what made it more horrifying. than and Yeah, I would agree. This movie is one of the few I would actually say actually horrified me while I was watching it. Yes. Like it's not scary, but horrifying for sure. Yeah. It's that loss of free will. It's just.
00:36:16
Speaker
I mean, and you get that. That's not too much of a spoiler because that's basically what the movie is about. yeah So, but yeah, no, that that's actually a movie I thought was really good, but I never want to watch again. Same, same. Yeah. It was really good.
00:36:28
Speaker
Watch it once. Yeah. Preferably with a friend. Yeah. So you can look at each other and go.
00:36:41
Speaker
Have you brought us something soothing? i mean, pelvic cleanser may irritate some other senses. Oh, I see. Growing up, one of the schools that I went to had a pickle factory across the street. Okay. Okay.
00:36:58
Speaker
While most people might think that was great, I'm very not. I know how you feel about pickles. This might be why. That's hilarious. First of all, I hate yeah i hate pickles, too. I used to have a real issue with the smell of vinegar.
00:37:10
Speaker
And so riding the bus to the campus a few times a week, it it wasn't bad on most days. Like you could usually smell the sour brine in the air, but it wasn't like too bad. Right.
00:37:24
Speaker
But a few times a month, I'm guessing they would just open or drain the vats and the smell would just spread and linger in the area. And the school was right across the street from it.
00:37:36
Speaker
And I swear you could smell it inside the school building. have you ever Have you ever dealt with anything like this?
The Pickle Factory Tale
00:37:41
Speaker
like maybe like Yes. Maybe not as like a factory situation, but there was a bus that took us to the daycare between mom dropping us off and going to school that smelled like such a very specific smell. I i don't even know. is It was like sharp and sour, but like cheese.
00:38:00
Speaker
But like that's so funny rubber, i don't know. It was really awful. and i was ye I hated it it. was a horrible, horrible smell. it was always in that bus. And i remember I went to hang out with a friend in Arizona in Flagstaff and they were very near an Alpo factory. And and it was August or July. it was very hot and baking dog food everywhere.
00:38:22
Speaker
I've heard it smells not great. Yeah. So those are my... smelling experiences that were permeated. So you might understand how they feel in this little town in British Columbia named St. Mary's.
00:38:37
Speaker
There used to be an Atlantic seafood company factory over 20 years ago that was in this town. Unfortunately, the company went bankrupt recently.
00:38:49
Speaker
And they left behind about 110 tanks that each contain about 3,000 gallons of fermenting fish sauce. Oh, my god So as the building decayed over the years, over 20 years, no so did the tanks. Nobody took care of this?
00:39:08
Speaker
Because it wasn't their responsibility. They were trying to get the government to help. And yeah i guess they right they were like, i this company went bankrupt. They need to clean it up.
00:39:19
Speaker
They're not going to clean it up. Then the town needs to clean it up. But it's a small town. They don't have those resources. And so they continued the fight. Well, as the building decayed over the years, the tank started to smell.
00:39:32
Speaker
Right. And the smell started to escape. Nearby towns started smelling too not just them so the towns of newfoundland and labrador they were reporting the smell wafting their way so finally after all of this time something is being done to finally take care of the smell over the next few months the vats will be drained by workers and the contents will be mixed with peat moss help absorb the fluids.
00:40:01
Speaker
The material will then be transported to a nearby pit that has been prepared with a protective liner in it and it'll be covered in topsoil and they hope this will solve the problem for good.
00:40:13
Speaker
I feel like that's just yeah relocating it I agree. i feel like and I know like the peat moss and I guess if you if it if you add some cedar too maybe it'll help with the smell but I feel like eventually The ground is just going to have that weird fishy smell. So here's something to think about. Wherever they're putting it is going to become incredibly fertile soil.
00:40:35
Speaker
You think so? I know so. Because we i if you read old wives tales about planting tomatoes, a lot of times they'll tell you. Oh, because the acidity in the soil. Well, they they there's fish emulsion that people use for fertilizer.
00:40:47
Speaker
And ah when you plant tomatoes, they say to plant ah raw fish underneath it. So maybe it'll be used for farmland. Like that's, that's, a I mean, I don't know how the chemical structure of any of that has changed over time. So I don't know what they're dealing with. think about But if it's, if it's truly just fish product, that could be extremely fertile land some point. came across that and I was like, gross, but after 20 years, nobody's palate is cleansed.
00:41:18
Speaker
I tried. Okay. Originally, I was going to tell you about Rat Kings at the end. And then I was like, that is not cleansing. This was better than that.
00:41:29
Speaker
I mean, it is about cleansing. Sort of. At least one spot. Exactly. yeah See, we started with the Rat Kings and now we ended it with a cleansing. There you go. Cleansing. Cleansing.
00:41:42
Speaker
I think that that is enough nightmares for today. Sweet dreams. Night. Let com
00:41:52
Speaker
If you have topic requests, book or movie recommendations, or just want to say hi, email us at nightmarecottage at gmail.com or visit our website at nightmarecottage.com. Sweet dreams.
00:42:13
Speaker
Bye-bye.