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Sergio Conceicao IN, Paulo Fonseca OUT: What Next For AC Milan? (Clip From Ep. 483)
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After AC Milan draw Roma and sack Paulo Fonseca and appoint Sergio Conceicao, Nima Tavallaey and Carlo Garganese discuss, debate, analyze and do a full post-mortem on the Fonseca era at the Rossoneri, as well as preview what is to come.
This is an extended clip from this week's free Monday episode of The Italian Football Podcast which is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and Google podcasts.
To listen to this & all other full episodes of The Italian Football Podcast (with no ads), go to Patreon.com/TIFP OR now also available on Spotify to become a Patron for only $2.99 USD per month (excluding VAT).
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Transcript
Fonseca's Sudden Sacking
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian football podcast. So only one place to start then, Nema Milan sat Paolo Fonseca after their draw against Roma on Sunday evening, one-one draw, pretty ah farcical.
00:00:20
Speaker
sequence of events that led to his sacking on on Sunday evening. and he He spoke to the the press after the game entered the and to the the television media, um basically not knowing anything about being sacked, having not even spoken to the club, and then and drives away from San Siro after midnight and and then tells the journalist,
00:00:47
Speaker
is true that he has actually been sacked.
Evaluating Fonseca's Performance
00:00:50
Speaker
Something that, well, all the rest of the media had known hours was going into the game that he was going to be sacked and that Sergio Conseil had already been ah spoken to and basically had already agreed a deal to to to to take over from Fonseca. So um that is the end um of Fonseca. 12 wins, 6 draws, 6 defeats.
00:01:16
Speaker
in his ah all of his games, in all competitions, and pretty much tells the story, really. Eighth place in Serie A, it's been it's been a disaster, really, let's be honest, by ah by the standards of Milan for Fonseca. I think we have to look at this from very many different angles. The results haven't been good enough. I mean, just look at their position in the Serie A, there's no doubt about that.
00:01:46
Speaker
they They've done well in the Champions League. They're um they're on they're on route for 18 points, which would seal them in spot in the top eight, which is, well, that's pretty good if you take into consideration the draw and all the other stuff, beating Real Madrid away and so on. um Excuse me. But for me, there's a couple of angles to this, which I ah want to discuss.
Management's Role in Chaos
00:02:15
Speaker
And the first one is Aside from being, you know, I can't get away from Milan's directors and Milan's ownership and how Milan are run. There is nothing tactically similar between Paolo Fonseca and Sergio Concille, other than they're both Portuguese and football managers. You had such a long time to prepare for post-Pioli
00:02:48
Speaker
You bring in Fonseca after a bit of a shit show, really, with Lopetegi. You give him a contract, which, according to reports, means that and but if he's sacked within the first six months, he'll only be paid until June 25, which also then tells you, you don't really want him. He is given some players that he wants,
00:03:18
Speaker
You give him some sort of a mercato. You don't really address the big issue. I mean, 20 million on Emerson Royale, God bless. It didn't exactly enhance or strengthen Milan. And throughout this entire process, this entire tenure, he has been hung out and left out to dry. The lasting impression with from Paolo Fonseca, with me, from the Paolo Fonseca tenure at Milan is,
00:03:47
Speaker
This is a man who was a dead man walking from day one. It was someone who this management just appointed and never really backed. He was constantly under fire. He was constantly under pressure. Never once had a director come out and defend him. Never once had anyone in senior management come out and defend the club and by extension him in the way that it is standard in Italian football when there's problems.
00:04:16
Speaker
um you have a coach who really tried everything to turn Milan from Pioli and a team that didn't really have any attacking identity into a team where getting Liao until, especially Liao, to work in a team, in a system, and actually towards the end, making it somewhat work,
00:04:48
Speaker
And then you essentially sack him at halftime. You let him go out there, talk to the media, talk, do the rounds post game, and then you sack him. This is, I don't know if they are just incompetent. I don't know if they are just unorganized. I don't know if they,
00:05:19
Speaker
are doing this on purpose to prove a point, but my god do they come across as a bunch of circus clowns.
Controversies Under Redbird Ownership
00:05:32
Speaker
This on the back of a week where Geri Cardinale in this Harvard paper says one of the dumbest things about cross-tine rivals Inter prompting Beppe Marotta to come out and defecate on his head verbally and embarrass him and it's just completely this is what it's been like under him under Redbird since he took over. I'm not talking about the financial stuff which he loves to talk about and I do think he has a point
00:06:09
Speaker
i think I don't think it's that black and white. But when it comes to handling and running a football club of Milan stature, it is watching children. You're given the keys to the Lamborghini to a nine-year-old who's drunk. That's what it comes across like. And it's from the the way that they have sack sacked and got rid of Massara, Maldini, to how they did did to treated um Fonseca yesterday for the whole world to see, the where the coach, for the first time that I can remember, announces his own sacking, I mean, I'm sure it's happened at some point before, but not at a big club like Nila, is yeah paul cruelly truly, embarrassing. And I have to say, if I look at Fonseca, we were both against his appointment. I said it the day he was appointed, I think he'll be sacked before.
00:07:07
Speaker
you know, within the next six to eight months, I think he, I think he's the wrong appointment. I thought it's console sour content was the right appointment. I thought Saturday was the right appointment. But my lasting impression after having watched Paolo Fonseca these months at Milan is actually far more positive than it was when he was first appointed because of having watched him trying to impose an attacking identity trying to make changes and impose things that are going to benefit Milan once someone with a who's better than him, tactically and better suited for this job than he is, who who's a strong character, like Oncissau. I think it leaves Milan in a better place, but it also shows I have a much higher respect for him as a coach, tactically,
00:08:06
Speaker
I have a much higher respect for him as a man. And conversely, I have no belief, confidence at all in this current crop of Milan directors in their current roles. i I don't think these people could
Player Dynamics and Challenges
00:08:27
Speaker
organize a piss up in a brewery.
00:08:31
Speaker
it's hard It's hard to disagree with with any of that, to be honest with you. I'm in full agreement. I think there are, well, I think there's a number of, isnt like you said, there's a number number of angles to this. um I have lots of respect for Fonseca as a person, and I think that's been demonstrated during these very difficult times that Milan, where he has been left alone, he has been working with, like you said, clowns. I mean, Zlatan Ibrahimovic,
00:09:01
Speaker
I mean, what an incredible player he was as a player, but my God, he's he's been embarrassed. It's been embarrassing watching him in this role. Really, really embarrassing um and it's unbelievable really that they put him in that place.
00:09:15
Speaker
and and and But at the same time, regardless of all that, Fonseca was never good enough for Milan and nothing nothing nothing that we've seen has has changed that. Yes, he's made He's tried everything. He's been he's been left in a in a really difficult position to work with, working alone. ah Clearly, he doesn't get on with Zlatan. I think that's obvious that they don't have a good relationship. And I don't blame Fonseca for not liking Zlatan, the way that he's tried to undermine him, you know going into the training ground, giving speeches to the players without even
00:10:00
Speaker
you know without Fonseca even knowing, ah going above his head. Fonseca giving, saying one thing to the media that they're not going to buy any more not going to buy any more players in the transfer market a few days before the summer window closes. um And then Zlatan, a couple of hours later, tells the tells the media that he decides, not Fonseca decides, when the transfer market is closed. you know like These kinds of things, and it made it difficult for him to work.
00:10:29
Speaker
um And also, and that's before we even get to the playing staff as well, where, you know, he's got a bunch of individualists who are, like you said, they're like children and the likes of Rafael Liao and Teo Hernandez and and Tomori and Tammy Abraham. And the way that these these players have behaved, it's been very, very difficult. But at the same time, it's up to the coach to to be able to take control, certainly, of his playing staff. um But he has done that. The problem is... I disagree. he has't I think he has done that. He has done everything he can. When he needed to show mark ah and show to Theo and Leo that their behaviour was unacceptable, he did that. When he needed to do that to Theo, he did that. He has done all of that. The problem is... He shouldn't have got there in the first place. The coach wouldn't wouldn't get there in the first place. You can't just put that square on the feet of the coach. The problem has been that he's been undermined from day one. Exactly like you said. The players aren't stupid. They they also read the papers. They also follow what's happening in the news and they probably
00:11:33
Speaker
also talk to their agents and given that they're all insiders in the club they probably know also what's happening such as you give a contract to a coach and say if we if if we're not happy with your work within six months we'll sack you when you get only get paid to the for the following six months. You you have a situation where He comes out like you said, we're not going to buy anyone. He says, I decide not him. like I know that it's a little bit tongue in cheek, but again, he has been undermined continuously from the very first minute that he was appointed and he has handled that situation with grace.
00:12:07
Speaker
um I agree this on the personal on a personal side.
Fonseca's Handling of Adversity
00:12:10
Speaker
I'm talking about personal. i'm I'm talking also from a professional point of view. Of course, he's made mistakes. Look again, I did not want this man at Milan. I thought it was a mistake tactically. I think he's too naive defensively for the Serie A and definitely for a club of Milan stature. I think it's been too inconsistent. Top four. I mean, the season was pretty much over but before it started. Top four is, you know, that is going to be hard. It's still doable, but the squaretos already over. It's been over for a month. Like, again, all of these things I get but there's nuance here. The way that they have undermined their own appointment from day one is just mind boggling. Then why'd you appoint him to begin with? Can't say Sal was already there in the summer. Like did you see what I'm saying? It it makes no sense. This is where, you know, again, I separate. I mean, listen, yeah, from a you from a personal point of view or from a media point of view, the way that he handles himself,
00:13:06
Speaker
ah in front of the media, and the way that he he handles himself in in the in the face of adversity, after bad results, after things go wrong, after off the players do things that they shouldn't do, the way that he's handled all that I think has been exemplary. <unk>t that I've got no complaints there, and and and and and that and that reinforces what I think of him as a person, which is, I think he's a great, great guy, and I feel sorry for him on that level, but from ah from a purely from a you know how good easy he is as a coach,
00:13:36
Speaker
You know, as I said, as we both said, when he was appointed, he's not good enough for Milan. This is not its this is a level too high for him. And yes, he's's it's been very, very difficult for him with all these other things, no doubt about that. But his whole career has shown.
00:13:51
Speaker
ah up until the Milan, up until taking over at Milan, that he wasn't good enough for Milan. So these other circumstances, yes, they made it even more difficult for a person that already wasn't good enough. and And that's really the, that's the bottom line, to be honest with you. I mean, just you look at the numbers. I mean, in Serie A this season, seven wins, six draws, four defeats.
00:14:17
Speaker
from 17 games, scored 26 goals in 17 games, conceding 17 goals, they've got 27 points from 17 games, that they they're 14 points off the top of the table, 16 if in to win the game in hand.
00:14:34
Speaker
and you know And we're only 17 matches, not even halfway through the season. And he's already you know possibly 16 points off the top of the table. And he's 35, 8 points off the the the top four.
00:14:47
Speaker
you know so i mean it's it's not it's not good enough the performances are not being good enough absolutely and and and that's the bottom line and and and he he isn't good enough he's not this is not he's not good enough for a big club and so i think that that doesn't agree with that that doesn't change regardless of of all the the the the difficult things he has had to deal with and then that's when the land made the mistake they should never have hired him well that's Well, that's that's precisely my point. I can't I agree with all of that. Like we both said at the time, i all the go back and listen to the pre that episode when he was appointed, what we all said. I mean, I listened to it yesterday. Everything we said, both of us said has happened on that part. Like it's not even it's it's it's it's it's there. Go go back and listen. But the issue is. Once you make a decision to hire someone, you have to give them the tools to be able to do a job.
00:15:39
Speaker
You have to be able to create an environment for that person to do the job. And you can't do that when you undermine and humiliate the person you chose to appoint from day one. So this is just I again, I fully understand Milan fans being furious with the owners and the and the and the directors. It feels like Skaroni is the only one who's who knows what he's doing. He's the only one, but he's kind of been relegated almost now to to to doing to to trying to maintain the peace and and keeping some some form of professionalism in very difficult times. um The rest of the directors um and and Jerry himself is, when it comes to the to running a football club and a football club of Milan stature, are clueless.
Critique of Milan's Management
00:16:38
Speaker
Again, the finances, sure, great. They've done a fantastic job. And I agree with his vision of football and and many other things he says are wise, but he's a, he's a business guy. He doesn't understand what club and where at wo he's bought and where he is. And that's the problem. You know, as when, when you have an owner, I always think of Gordon Ramsey when he says, when he talks about restaurants and people who buy restaurants who don't know anything about restaurants and thinks it's easy, you just put food on a plate and go out with it.
00:17:07
Speaker
That's how it feels with Jerry Cardinale. He looks at numbers and goes, well, like I know this side of it. But he doesn't have a goddamn clue about what a football club is. He doesn't have a goddamn clue how to run a football club. He doesn't have a goddamn clue how a football club of Milan statue is supposed to be run. He has bought something of which he understands nothing about other than the numbers, which I'm sure he's good at and he's great at. and And he'll probably, you know, it'll be difficult if they missed the Champions League, but I'm sure that he'll resolve the finances side of it. You know, there's no doubt about that.
00:17:42
Speaker
but there's more to it than that. and this i just a you know So far, every decision they've made is wrong. There was more opposition yesterday from the fans, especially at the start of the game. ah caught More calls for him to to sell the club and and and yeah massive opposition. then then They're not happy with him at all. But I've got to say,
00:18:11
Speaker
One thing, though, I think one saving grace for them, um if they actually appoint Sergio Concy-Sao, because Sergio Concy-Sao is not Fonseca.
Prospective Changes with Concy-Sao
00:18:24
Speaker
Sergio Concy-Sao is... moreurigno conte he He goes to war.
00:18:34
Speaker
He, if he's not happy, look, talk to Porto fans and journalists who cover Porto. There is a famous picture or famous before and after picture of Porto's sporting director one week before and after the transfer window closes. I think it was two seasons ago when Consti São had been promised things on the transfer market and he was fuming in the media about it.
00:19:04
Speaker
and fried the sporting director. There's a before and after picture of the summer and after. The guy had aged 25 years because Konsi Sao had destroyed him. like This is who Konsi Sao is. He's a fighter. he He goes in there with a blowtorch to everyone and anyone who doesn't show commitment, professionalism, desire, hunger. He's tactically very defensively solid. He knows how to build a group.
00:19:34
Speaker
He knows all of these things, just the mentality monster that he is. So I do think we're going to see a Milan with much more fight, much more grit, but at the same time, they need to also back up whatever promises they have made to Sergio Consezial. Because if they don't, oh my God, this guy does not mess about.
00:20:03
Speaker
he doesn't miss about? yeah yeah i mean that this and This is where it will be interesting with Conseil Sal when when he comes in, if he is able to control the group of players ah in a way or get the respect of the group of players um and will get them at least fulfilling exactly what he wants on the pitch in a way that Fonseca was never able to do. and We'll see because if Conseil Sal can do that, then obviously that's that's ah an indictment on on the inability of Fonseca to be able to do that, which is something that you know I've always thought he's he's obviously he's just doesn't have he obviously doesn't have that in him to be able to... to you know the The things that happened earlier in the season with the players, like with the calling break, with Liao and Theo, with the penalty incident, with Pudasic, Tami and Tamori, these kind of things don't happen in
00:21:01
Speaker
in clubs where the manager has the total control and respect and influence over his players. I wouldn't expect that to happen under under certain level of coach. We'll see, the from from what I've seen of Consese on the outside, I would expect him to be able to control the dressing room fully in a way that probably Fonseca hasn't been able to do. ah Having said that though, if he's not able to do that,
00:21:27
Speaker
then that probably reflects well on Fonseca because it shows that, well, Konsi Sal couldn't do it either. He couldn't control the dressing room. He couldn't take control. um But what what what what does remain is obviously the problems above Konsi Sal's head, like in know with the directors and ah the you know the way that the club's being led that way.
00:21:48
Speaker
and that isn't going to change so we'll have to see. I think from a from a point of view of trying to rescue Milan's season, getting them in the top four, this was a decision that had to be made and I would expect Milan to certainly improve, certainly to start with. There's always a manager bounce a new manager bounce always. So I would expect Milan's form to continue. I think their first game is in the in the super cup against Juventus. So I mean, yeah, father meets son. Yeah, yeah. brother meet son yeah a bit I mean, it's a bit of a Mickey Mouse kind of competition, but I guess it's ah it's a way for him to ah kind of slowly bed in and treat them as training sessions, I guess, those games.
00:22:29
Speaker
But so yeah, I think it's it's a decision that had to be made because with Fonseca, Milan clearly weren't going to get into the top four. and There's no doubt about that. No, there's no doubt about that. And again, you know, all our the reason why I'm not hammering Fonseca on this is because we kind of expected it. Again, go back and listen to the part we made about when he was appointed and all the criticisms and concerns we both had then. And every single thing has come to pass. So there's not I don't want to repeat myself. So I just refer back to that. But I do think that what has happened since then has been, is is also very important because things don't happen in a vacuum. And he really did, you know, when he, the the words he said, I have a clear conscience, I gave it my all. I believe that. I don't think no one who has followed this situation can question that. And it's strange because as I said, I think he's, he actually comes out of this looking better than he did going into it.
00:23:30
Speaker
um which is very rare when you're ah when you're a coach who's just been sacked. It's not like when Rudy Garcia was sacked. um And it's um that just goes to show that I think that he he um he didn't do a good job. He failed where we expected him to fail, but he also did better in some regards. And the fact that he was the person who tried and began the process of transforming this Milan after Pioli, at least in the attacking phase, into a team with clear but patterns, which Pioli never had, um is, even though it cost a lot of turbulence with Liao and so on, seemingly, then, you know, that's something that is a very important work that has begun, and I'm sure that Conseil Sauer will build upon that.
00:24:29
Speaker
I don't think that the problems in terms of the players have disappeared, but we do know who Consisto is as a character, who we do know how he is as a person. He goes to war. He's a warrior. He's not a gentleman in like that. he This is a man who once beat up a spectator because he was mocking his son whilst he was there watching his son play youth football. like he This is who Consisto is. He doesn't take shit from anyone.
00:24:56
Speaker
um and he goes to did he he goes to battle and he's prepared to almost, quote-unquote, die for his for for the for for the group.
Agent Mendes' Influence at Milan
00:25:07
Speaker
But he expects that kind of commitment and loyalty back, not just from the players, but also from his directors. Yeah, I think the other key massive part of this, of Conseil's sale taken over at Milan, is it also is ah Milan also giving the keys to Helge Mendes, having a big influence over Milan. He's the agent of Conseil Sal, and but he's also the agent of Rafael Liao, I think Emerson Royale as well. So what we are seeing is Helge Mendes. As Patrick Kendrick will probably send me a message about pronunciation of Portuguese names. Yeah, but we so what we're seeing is we're seeing Mendez not and it's not just Milan, were we're seeing how much influence he's now getting on Italian football um as a whole because we' we're also seeing it at Juventus because Francisco Conseil, Sergio Conseil's son is ah is at Juventus but also Mendez is trying to trying to take and he publicly it gave a statement the other day about bringing Antonio
00:26:16
Speaker
ah silver from Benfica to Juventus, basically saying but that he wants to join Juventus. I mean, I don't know if that will happen. He's too expensive. But again, this is that the influence that Mendes is now um ah exerting over to two of the the two two of the three biggest clubs in Italian football. um So this is Mendes also. were We're starting to see Mendes going to be a big key decision maker at Milan.
00:26:45
Speaker
ah going forward. And that's not always a good thing. And so, you know, because Mendez has his Mendez has his own ah ah gender agenda and that is obviously making money and consolidating power and money at clubs rather than the actual success of those teams on the pitch. um And so, you know, getting his players at those at those clubs. and So, you know,
00:27:09
Speaker
um
00:27:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, we'll left to seat we'll have to wait and see. And we'll have to wait and see what it goes. But I do think that Sergio Concy-Sao is a better decision than Fonseca. And he should have been appointed in the summer if they didn't want Maurizio Sarri, who I still maintain would have been the ideal solution yeah tactically. Yeah, for sure.