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Free Weekly Episode - Serie A Betting Scandal Deep Dive, What Happens To Tonali, Zaniolo & Fagioli?, Bonaventura & Berardi Destroy Malta, England vs Italy Preview & Much More (Ep. 368)
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From Serie A betting scandal deep dive, what could happen to Nicolo Zaniolo, Nicolo Fagioli and Sandro Tonali, Giacomo Bonaventura and Domenico Berardi demolish Malta, preview of Luciano Spalletti's Azzurri playing England at Wembley and the state of play in the EURO 2024 qualifiers as well as Baggio and Premface of the week and much, much more when Nima and Carlo break down all the main talking points from a jam-packed weekend in Italian football.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Support
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian Football Podcast. Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Italian Football Podcast. I'm Caro Garganese, joined, as always, by Nimat Tavale. On today's show, we will discuss the new scandal engulfing Italian football, a betting scandal that has implicated
00:00:22
Speaker
Nickolo Fagioli, Nickolo Zaniolo, Sandro Tonali, and many more players potentially to come. We will do a deep dive on that, look at what's happened, what's going to happen next, and also some of the key talking points around that. We'll also review Italy's Euro 2024 qualifying win against Malta on Saturday, and then preview the game against England at Wembley on
00:00:52
Speaker
Tuesday. For all our first time listeners, this is our free weekly episode that we do every Monday, reviewing the weekend Serie action and all the biggest talking points in Italian football. If you want to support the Italian football podcast and receive all of our content that we do throughout the week, including a weekly Q&A episode every Tuesday, where we answer all the questions from our patrons, plus the weekly Thursday midweek review show, plus interviews, post match reaction and much, much more than
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Speaker
go to patreon.com slash TIP and become a subscriber for just $2.99 a month plus VAT. You could also now sign up to be a paid subscriber on Spotify and we'll provide the link in the description. It's the same price and same terms. For all of you that do listen on Spotify or on Apple, on iTunes Podcast, we'd really appreciate if you give us a five-star rating, give us a follow, give us a like, also on YouTube as well. It really helps us to grow and do more quality content for you guys.
Betting Scandal: Players and Legal Issues
00:01:47
Speaker
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00:02:49
Speaker
It's time to share your story. Okay, right. Only one place to start and that is this betting scandal that has erupted. It wouldn't be an international break without some kind of new scandal and we have one. So just to sum up what has actually happened.
00:03:12
Speaker
Nígolo Zagnolo and Sandra Ottonali were questioned by police on Thursday, whilst with the Italy squad, in relation to an investigation into illegal betting.
00:03:28
Speaker
And this comes after Nigola Fagioli, the Juventus midfielder, had already become an investigation into his role in this betting scandal. And so it's led to Nali and Zagnolo leaving the Italy squad.
00:03:49
Speaker
and they didn't play against Malta, they won't play against England either. Now what the players are accused of doing is using, it's illegal betting, but using, certainly in the case of Tonali and Zenyolo, using illegal online betting platforms. Now it's illegal for
00:04:12
Speaker
for footballers to bet. And they're also accused of betting using illegal platforms. So these are not licensed betting platforms, which is illegal. It's basically
00:04:33
Speaker
And if cotto mero is the correct way to describe it, it's dark, it's unlicensed betting. Yeah, exactly. It's unlicensed betting online. I mean, they are in Italy, you can bet or gambling is legal if you, you know, if it's part of the if it's licensed and you have to get a license from the government and stuff like that.
00:04:58
Speaker
But it's basically, they've used, they've played, they've made bets on sites online which are not, have not been licensed in Italy. We don't know yet if they've been betting on football, which is the more serious thing here. Because if you bet on football, as in, if you bet on
00:05:28
Speaker
You're not allowed to. Footballers are forbidden from placing or taking bets, whether it's directly themselves or via family, indirectly, in competitions that are organized under FIFA, UEFA and the FIGC, which means they can't bet on football, period. Now, if it were to be shown that they have been betting on football,
00:05:50
Speaker
well, they can be banned for three years. And that's what they're investigating now. We just know that they've been betting, that there's been a betting scandal, but we're not sure whether or not it's been on football or not. And I think that really matters. If they've been betting on football, well, you know,
00:06:13
Speaker
Goodbye. I mean, that's just not allowed. If they've been betting on just, I don't know, these online slot machines or whatever, I don't think it's going to be that serious. Not as serious, at least.
00:06:25
Speaker
Okay, so that kind of explains what's happened. The investigation is ongoing right now. We should also specify that Fabrizio Corona, who is Corona, sorry. I mean, if we're talking scumbags, I'm sorry, but if this man, I remember I learned about him the first time I saw a documentary about 22 years ago.
00:06:54
Speaker
this, how he operates. Well, this is someone who was, when was it? He was sentenced to 13 years in prison by the Italian Supreme Court. Didn't serve anywhere close to that. Well, he didn't, didn't, but he was for a myriad of offenses, including lying and, you know, libelling people.
00:07:18
Speaker
well you know those are the those are the least serious well exactly black male but i mean we're talking about extortion extortion exactly that's what he does i mean the in the documentary he he he was he basically takes photos of famous rich people then tells them if you don't pay me i'm going to publish this photo
00:07:35
Speaker
Yeah, he's basically like Jeffrey Epstein, he gets compromising, compromising photos of people and evidence. And then he goes to the to the person and says basically, well, do what I say, or pay me what I want, or, or this goes out in the media. And that often happened with footballers having affairs. Yeah. And he did that to a lot of a lot of players.
00:08:00
Speaker
No, he did and he also, you know, I remember in that documentary I saw, the guy is completely psychotic. He used to say, I remember this quote vividly from him in this documentary where he said, and this is a quote by the way, I checked it again, he says, I'm just like Robin Hood where I take from the rich but instead of giving to the poor I keep the money.
00:08:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's called being a thief. That's what that is. He's truly insane. And this guy, this isn't the first time, he was the one who started this ridiculous notion that Marcelo Brozovic and Juan Donara, when Icardi and Brozo were in there, that they had a sexual affair and he got sued by both of them and had to apologize and pay them damages. And it was a complete lie. Complete lie, complete fabrication.
00:08:55
Speaker
which obviously conveniently he leaked when the whole situation with kind of his captaincy when he was stripped of it came out. No, we were talking about one of the vilest human beings.
00:09:09
Speaker
And he's been thriving off of this because he said all of this stuff and some of it has come to pass. Now the Italian media are bringing him on in every single radio station and TV show. As we've seen elsewhere. And it's like... As we've seen elsewhere in the last week.
00:09:35
Speaker
We're just going to have to wait and see what's happened. What has actually happened here? Have they bet on football or have they been playing on online slot machines?
00:09:44
Speaker
I'm not making a defense for them because I think it's stupid. Every human being, regardless of if they're a footballer or not, is responsible for understanding what the law is and following that. It's as simple as that.
00:10:07
Speaker
Okay, Nima, so can you just give us an outline of what happens next in the legal process here? Well, let me just briefly, as always in these cases, the investigation has to be done. As in completed, the police have to end the prosecution and the police have to kind of go through all the material and feel that they're happy with whatever investigation in terms of asking, interviewing people.
00:10:34
Speaker
questioning people, putting it all together. And once they're satisfied with that, hand it over to the prosecution and then proceed. And then, of course, the suspect in question has to respond. There's reports suggesting, for example, with Fajoli that he's looking to plead bargain because obviously I think with Fajoli, I think we've understood that he has a gambling addiction. It seems very clear that we're dealing with someone who's battling addiction here.
00:11:02
Speaker
In his case, I think it's been very, very obvious that that is the issue. But again, it depends. So we have to see what the investigation concludes and what they come to and what the prosecution decides based on the evidence that what's the situation. I just pray and hope that they have not bet on football, that they've not been stupid enough to bet on football games. Now, we're just basically talking about playing, I don't know, poker or blackjack or whatever.
00:11:31
Speaker
That's what I'm hoping in this situation that that's what's happened because if they play if they bet on football I mean, you know the mess the the way the the where this takes a completely different term How serious the potential punishments here? Well minimum well three years, isn't it? I mean just just betting on football. I mean we're talking
00:11:54
Speaker
three years and say hefty fines and three years for a footballer. I mean, that's that's the end of your career right there. You know, three year ban and and it's that's not an Italian thing as such. I mean, I know that FIFA and UEFA are very, very hard on this stuff as well.
00:12:10
Speaker
They don't want footballers to bet or people in football to bet on football games. I don't know how it's applied. I mean, I'm just looking at like, even Tony, who had an incredible number of bets and they were footballing bets as well. And he got a band for like seven months. Was it seven months? From what I understand, there were other circumstances there as well.
00:12:32
Speaker
no i can't remember i read too much and i read but like bits and bobs of that but they were extending the circumstances and of course. But the problem here is that in italy this is you know this this is this thing is history right this is the first time this has happened. And so obviously they really do not want this to keep happening understanding is that it would be.
00:12:56
Speaker
you're talking two to three years if it's like match fixing involved because or on your own team, certainly, but definitely match fixing. I mean, if you remember Masiello, I remember the former Atalanta player when he was at Barrie. Now he only ended up, I don't know if it's what he got or it's what he served, but it was like two years, two and a half years or something. He literally
00:13:17
Speaker
bet on his own team. Well, he's scored an own goal in a game. He's scored an own, deliberately scored an own goal in order to, in order to, you know, to ensure a bet went through. This is not just an interesting problem. I mean, that's match fixing. I mean, look, but the thing is, we've had this problem. This is a problem in, in, in lots of countries. I mean, I know in Sweden, we had a similar case with a player played in the, in the, in the top flight who
00:13:42
Speaker
was criminally charged for rigging games to pay off debts. That's the thing, though. A lot of these guys, they end up accumulating lots of debt illegally. And then in order to pay off that, these criminal gangs forced them, essentially, to do what they got them.
00:14:00
Speaker
And the force them to take a giveaway penalty or give way yellow card or do you know what I mean like stuff like that especially the yellow card thing is something that that is becomes really if I can just raise a few a few important issues and I want to leave the whole.
00:14:17
Speaker
hypocrisy over betting, the amount of betting and gambling sponsorship there is. If we can just leave that for now and we'll talk about that separately because I think that deserves its own segment. But there's a few little talking points that I want to raise. And I know you're probably going to disagree with me on some of these, but let's try and speak about this kind of calmly because I do think it is worth discussing.
Debate: Fairness of Betting Laws for Footballers
00:14:40
Speaker
So first of all,
00:14:42
Speaker
I think that obviously the law is the law, you know, there's a lot of everyone, though, everyone. Yeah, everyone. There's laws that are fair. There's laws that are unfair. And we see that not just in football, we see that we see that everywhere. Now, I think that personally, I think that it's a bit of a ridiculous law that footballers are not not able to to bet. I can understand not being able to bet on your own team, obviously.
00:15:09
Speaker
or even on your own league, I understand that. But obviously we need to wait and see what they're betting on first. But if they would, let's just say that they were betting on games in Malaysia or, you know, South America or the MLS or, you know, football that has or lower league football that has absolutely no direct
00:15:34
Speaker
uh, relation to, to the football that they play. Then, I mean, I just think it's just a bit ridiculous that we could be talking up to like three years, you know, or really, you know, should that even, should it even be forbidden for them to be able to bet on these games?
00:15:50
Speaker
I think so. And I'll tell you why. Because the football community in the football world is not that big. And you could have a situation where, again, a lot of this betting is illegal. And a lot of these betting circles are run by criminal gangs. And you can easily find yourself in a situation if you allow footballers to bet on leagues they're in and games they're not involved in.
00:16:14
Speaker
you're opening an entire new can of worms. That's why. That's been the legal rationale behind not allowing footballers and people who are directly employed in football to bet on football. You're not allowed to do that. Just stay away from that. Now, I do agree that if we're talking about
00:16:31
Speaker
Black, I mean, we're talking slot machines and poker games and stuff like that. Yeah. That to me is a completely different ballgame. Well, that is what Zanyo, I'm not sure if it's Tonali, but I'm certain Zanyolo's agent has come out and said that, or his lawyer has come out and said that that is what Zanyolo has been betting on. Well, the problem with him is that he's bet on sites that you're not allowed to bet in if you live in Italy because they don't have a license.
00:16:57
Speaker
And this is something the European Union is cracking down hard on, because it's been such an unregulated market, and now they have to regulate it, in the sense that in order for you to be granted a license to operate, but since it's online, anyone can access it.
00:17:16
Speaker
If you go and access sites, the responsibility is on you to know that this site, you can't go on that site and bet on it. Do you know what I mean? That's the onus. Should that be a sporting punishment if Sanjolo's caught betting on blackjack or poker? I think it's more of a criminal thing, yes. It's a criminal, exactly. Why should he get banned from football for betting on poker? If you break the law criminally, you might end up in prison. Let's remember that
00:17:45
Speaker
sport, elite sports, is not a human right. It's a privilege. And these guys go to put in prison, he gets put in prison, he can't play because he's in prison, but he shouldn't get a bad. But he's also brought the game into disrepute by doing that, by doing these things. And it's not just him, it's all of them. And that's the part of this where I find so frustrating is that
00:18:07
Speaker
I understand that the life of a footballer is not as beautiful as people make it out to be. They have millions of, especially young people, look at numbers of followers on social media, they look at the supermodel girlfriend, they look at the fancy cars, the clothes, the lifestyle.
00:18:26
Speaker
But at the same time, the life of a footballer, when you talk to footballers, I think I would not be able to live that life for five minutes. It is such a dreary, boring life. No, it is, you know, just to just to just to prove what you've just said then, I met at the weekend, just by chance, actually, a guy who is a luxury car dealer.
00:18:47
Speaker
and he was telling me, he was actually showing me some of the cars, he deals and provides cars for lots and lots of top footballers around Europe, not just in the Premier League but around Europe.
00:19:10
Speaker
And because he provides the cars, he has the, I'm not sure what you call it, where you can see where the car, where the player goes with his car. Yeah, okay, yeah, they've got, everyone has a GP, I mean, GP, that's it, yeah. So he texts it, and he says he can see exactly where the footballers go. And he says, the footballers don't do anything, he says. He sees them, he sees them, they go to training, they go back home, they go to training, they go back home, they don't do anything else.
00:19:36
Speaker
Do anything else? It's it's a very very like elite sports people. I mean it's boring life. Yes, every time Yeah, it is and it's a lot of spare time where you don't do anything and that's why they all watch You know football games and they play cards and they play FIFA and it's a very very boring game It's a very very you know, you have to be incredibly mentally strong and discipline to not you know to see you know to focus and and You know
00:20:04
Speaker
I understand that if you are trained to live off of kicks and if you're trained to live off of adrenaline in your sport, you will look to supplant that when you're not playing and training. I get all of that. I do think this is a this is also a public health issue and it should be treated as such.
00:20:23
Speaker
But there is a big but here. You are also responsible. Everyone is to follow the law as it is, even the stupid ones. And if you don't agree with them, then you should lobby and work like everyone does when they want to change the law. Ignorance of the law is not a defense. But again, I think that
00:20:45
Speaker
I do have an issue, I do have an issue as well. I do accept what you're saying, especially when the underworld is involved with the illegal betting, with the illegal. Yeah, but even if it's legal, Carlo, this is the thing, though, that they use a lot of these criminal gangs. I mean, there's been lots of brilliant reporting done on this about how they use these illegal gangs, use legal ways to wash money, launder money. You know, of course they do. So so it's the way that football has tried to withstand this is basically saying, look,
00:21:15
Speaker
might not be the best solution, but no one who is employed at the club or works in football can bet on football. And Italy's gone further and said, well, you know, the law, you can bet on on legal. I just don't think you can hold football as responsible for that. I mean, I mean, illegal drug gangs and criminals use all kinds of businesses to I know the money they use. And if you make it legal for Chinese restaurants, they use, you know, but if. Oh, my God.
00:21:45
Speaker
Do you live in a Scorsese movie?
00:21:53
Speaker
Who did you meet yesterday? Did you meet Joe Pesci at the restaurant? No, no. I know policemen. They tell me what the number one business is, where money laundering goes. And they say hairdressers and Chinese restaurants are the number one. This is coming from the police nearby. This isn't me watching a Scorsese movie. I'm just saying.
00:22:16
Speaker
Anyway, what I wanted to say was, what was that? Look, I think it's not just, I think any small sports from what I'm aware, they're not allowed to, the athletes and people involved in it are not allowed to bet on the sports they're in. And this is also a protective measure of those involved in order to, so that there's no pressure involved exerted on them.
00:22:44
Speaker
Um, and, and you know, this, this has been, it's not the perfect solution, but it's, it's, it's just, they can't do more than, can I just raise one other thing? Um, is, and I know sometimes I get accused of being like, Oh, Carlo, he always says that we should sweep things under the carpet. Like the premier league does. And, and, and, and I guess I'm not saying that directly because indirectly.
00:23:07
Speaker
I'm, I'm kind of half saying it in the sense that Italian, Italian, listen, what the point I'm trying to make is, I don't want us to go overboard with the punishment here and start banning, start banning, and obviously we don't know what, what the metal. So we need to wipe that bump. So I don't want us to go over the board and start, start banning these players for years and years for, for something which number one, I don't think
00:23:32
Speaker
you know, if we look at all the problems that there are in Italian football, right? I see this as quite far down the list, you know, if it's just, you know, poker and blackjack betting on games in Malaysia, I would put that way down the list of the problems that need to be solved in Italian football. Is it worth destroying our league further? Is it worth destroying these players' careers and the clubs? And again, the image and PR of the league over something which
00:24:00
Speaker
Okay, it might be against the law, but if it is just betting on poker and blackjack and betting on Malaysia, is it really worth destroying the league over something? But it's not being destroyed. This is the thing, though. The problem is this, that Italian football, it's a big organization, right?
00:24:18
Speaker
There are people who who are following it they're doing their jobs and i'm glad that they're doing their jobs and and and trying to get rid of this element the problem is that the other side the people who should be running the p.r. the marketing all that stuff they're not doing their jobs. You know i'm so i don't see a like a problem here right the issue is the issue for me is more than anything is that.
Sponsorship Contradictions in Football
00:24:44
Speaker
make it harmonize reality with the law, in the sense of, what do I mean? Either you ban gambling altogether online, and you make all of it illegal, which they can't do, but if you're going to have that allowed, I don't understand the correlation between someone playing blackjack online
00:25:10
Speaker
I understand if it's an illegal site that's not licensed. That's a different thing that applies to all citizens, every human being in Italy and Sweden and everywhere. I'm talking about from the sporting side. I don't understand if the issue is playing on Blackjack and playing online slot games and poker and stuff like that.
00:25:29
Speaker
I don't think that's big. It's that big of a scandal. I think it's stupid that they went to an unregistered, unlicensed online site. And I think they should be fined for that. But I don't see the scandal. But although they would have done it because they're not they're not allowed to bet, isn't it? Yeah. Well, they can't bet legally because they would be found out.
00:25:46
Speaker
Yeah, well then that needs to be, for goodness sakes, that's silly. Again, I understand that they're not allowed to bet on football, and I support that 100%. You shouldn't be able to bet on the sport you're working with. I just think that's just common sense. You have that in finance, you have similar regulations everywhere, right? I get that. But this notion that they can't
00:26:08
Speaker
play on like, I don't see what this has anything to do with the sport. I just fail to see that. And I don't see, so I think that from that aspect, I do agree with you on that. Yeah, because what frustrates me, what frustrates me just about in here is, is I just feel like, you know, Italian football just loves blowing up a scandal, right? Just they love blowing it up as much as they can and doing as much
00:26:36
Speaker
damage as possible with it. And that's the issue I have. And like you said, yeah, the other side of it, they're not doing it. I was speaking to someone last night about this that's in Italy and actually works with the league and deals with clubs and agents. And he said to me, he said,
00:26:51
Speaker
the Italian football just just needs to be seen to be doing something so they bring out a scandal every now and again it makes it look like they're actually doing something when in reality they're actually not doing anything positive to improve the league you know like you said the infrastructure.
00:27:07
Speaker
The infrastructure is a joke. The youth crisis that we have, the academies, which Zola has been going off on one about last week, rightfully so. The television crisis that we have with television revenue and being able to sell TV deals and the marketing, of course, which me and you talk about every single week, which is just embarrassing. So the only time that they are seen to be doing something is when they're doing these, when these scandals come about and then they blow them up, I think too much.
00:27:35
Speaker
And, you know, again, I'm not saying they shouldn't be doing this, you know, like you say, they're doing their job. But I just feel like this is all they do. And when it's all they do, I mean, what hope does Italian football ever have? It's just negativity, negativity, negativity. There's no creation, it's just destruction. And that's the frustration I have. No, that is frustrating and it is annoying. And the fact that there's no other side to that is a bit...
00:28:04
Speaker
Also, can I just ask you about Fabrizio Corona again? I know you touched upon him, but I think we also need to, you know, again, we need to see what comes up. But I think we should just take with a pinch of salt, kind of what to believe, because there's already some holes in your stories. I don't believe a single word that that man says.
00:28:20
Speaker
I'm sorry. What he said has turned out to be true on Fagioli and a couple of more, but other than that, I don't believe a single word that that man says. Well, Zagnolo, obviously it's he said, she said, but Zagnolo, he said that Zagnolo bet on a game that he was in the Roma squad for.
00:28:41
Speaker
Now, obviously, that's obviously been denied. We'll see. We'll see if he bet on Rome. If he did, regardless of the exact details, he's in trouble. But there's already a hole in that story because he said he bet on a game when he was in the Roma squad. And actually the game in question, Zaniolo was injured. He wasn't in the squad at all. But this is what he does. He always does this. He always says that he actually holds in his Fagioli story as well. He said that Juventus didn't take Fagioli on tour to America because they basically try to, you know, cover it up or try to
00:29:11
Speaker
deal with it in-house to start with. But that was a lie as well because Juventus went on tour a week before he actually spoke to Juventus. So those dates don't add up either. And then also the Zalewski thing, he named him, didn't he? Nikola Zalewski.
00:29:28
Speaker
And the, the, the, you know, his, his team, his, his entourage have come out and said that, you know, he was in, it was just, he was in the WhatsApp groups, but he hasn't done any betting at all. He's just in a WhatsApp group where, where, where they were discussing it, apparently. So he's done no betting either. So there's already
00:29:47
Speaker
you know, lies or incorrect information. This is what he does. This is what he always does. And he because he knows that when he does it, when things are, he stokes the fire because he gets, you know, short term gain from it. But then he knows that people won't pay attention when when when he gets sued and has to walk it back.
00:30:06
Speaker
and retract. I mean, this is his MO. He's been doing it for 20 years. This isn't new with this guy. He's a scumbag lowlife. Let's be honest. We're talking about one of the most despicable human beings in all of Italy, and it's not new. So that's what I'm saying. This notion that he's not a journalist. He's
00:30:26
Speaker
No, and Bonniak said that. Bonniak said that. He said, you know, he's not a journalist. No, he isn't. I quote, Fabrizio Corona is being described as a journalist. Fabrizio Corona is no journalist. This is a man who received a 13-year prison sentence for many different things, including black maning people.
00:30:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's true. If he's found lying again, he should be sent back to prison because he's destroying people's lives. I mean, these players, if they get they could potentially get banned. No, let's just say Italy don't qualify for Euro 2024 because because they lose to England on Tuesday, which possibly they probably will be, to be honest with you. But, you know, they would have had a much better chance of beating England if they had the finale of Hannibal and all these guys. Yeah, he's I mean, he's doing a lot of damage. I just
00:31:12
Speaker
love how you want to focus on not losing like that's the biggest griping life so the England game I want to qualify for the Euros never I would have qualified but these guys could miss the Euros now better
00:31:35
Speaker
But, you know, imagine that it all comes out that, you know, this was these were lies or it was only blackjack or something. You know, I remember the Euro 2020-12, Dominic O'Crushito got sent home from the Italy squad because of a betting scandal. And he got found out that it was all lies. It wasn't true. And he missed the tournament from it. And he's very bitter about that.
00:31:54
Speaker
No, he shoots that. I know. And yeah, I remember that. And what happened to the newspapers that printed these lies? Nothing. And he had to miss the tournament. Well, the problem is that it's Italy that they need to check out. I think there needs to be some legislation here as well. Lawmakers need to step in and basically clarify together with the sporting authorities what is the deal here. Like, again,
00:32:18
Speaker
And this is a nice segue to our next thing. I think it's ridiculously hypocritical to watch a betting company's name together with the Serie A every week and week out. And they, I mean, football is
00:32:37
Speaker
Making so much money off of betting and then at the same time wagging the finger I just can't take that seriously Look if you don't if you want to stop if you want to take a stringent stance Against betting then you have to go all the way you have to put your money where your mouth is
00:32:55
Speaker
Football is permitted and surrounded by betting sponsorship deals and advertisement of betting companies. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it must do more than any other industry advertising and promoting betting around the world. Because they're liquid, they're cash, they have cash on hand. Lots of other businesses don't. These guys, they are all liquid.
00:33:14
Speaker
It's bizarre that that is the case, Nima, yet it treats its own staff or its own workers so stringently and strictly when it comes to betting and basically bans them from doing it. And I understand the reasons why you've explained that, but it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense that you can be that stringent yet.
00:33:34
Speaker
but was dominated by betting sponsorship. But it's not just in Italy, it's everywhere. Actually, Italy is one of the better ones. In England, when Even Tony was banned for illegal betting earlier this year, I remember half of the Premier League teams, I think nine of the 20 Premier League teams at the time, had betting sponsors on their shirts. Yet here they are, banning Even Tony for betting.
00:34:01
Speaker
It looks weird that it's basically, it's not a good look and there is a little bit of a logical somersault. I do need to clarify though this NIMA, this is important though. Italian football is, when you compare it to say football in English football, Italian football has tried to crack down on betting sponsorship in Italian football. Five years ago, the dignity decree was passed into law by the Italian parliament and that
00:34:27
Speaker
banned advertisement of gambling and betting companies within football, if we're talking about football. But the issue with that though is that Italian clubs then actually
00:34:42
Speaker
like skirted around the issue by, they instead, they would advertise in sports news sites that allowed you to bet. So indirectly, they still allow you, which is so classically Italian. It's the most Italian thing in the world though. Yeah, well, I'll do the sideways hustle. It's just, yeah.
00:35:04
Speaker
I know you've got cryptocurrency as well, but that's another issue altogether. The other thing though, Nimr is, we're talking about addiction here, and you said about Fadioli, he clearly has an addiction problem, and there's also been reports, although we can't verify this, that Tonali is in the same position, that he has a real addiction problem. Now, if you want, if football really wants to help these addicts, and there are those that say that, I've seen quite a few people come out and say that we shouldn't be
00:35:31
Speaker
We shouldn't be severely punishing people like Fajioli and Tonali if they are found guilty of this. Instead, we should be helping them as addicts rather than severely punishing them. But if football really wants to help these addicts, these gambling addicts,
00:35:48
Speaker
then having all this betting sponsorship, I mean... What do you expect is going to happen? It's a ticking time bomb. I mean, it's just, this is the thing I mean about the ridiculousness of it. I mean, in football, of them saying, wagging the finger. It's in their face every minute. I mean, what do you expect them to do? I mean, if you know an addict of any kind, and I know gambling addicts, right? And I've seen, I think everybody will know somebody that has had their life ruined or worse or destroyed
00:36:15
Speaker
by, you know, I know people that have lost their house over that gambling bet. Okay, right. Let's move on to the Italy national team now.
Italy's Euro 2024 Qualifiers: Malta Victory
00:36:23
Speaker
First of all, let's start off with a review of the game against Malta on Saturday evening. Italy win 4-0 against Bari. Two goals for
00:36:36
Speaker
for Domenico Berardi, a goal for substitute Davide Flatezi, but the one big story of this game, Nima, is the really beautiful story of the comeback of Giacomo Bonaventura, who hadn't played for Italy for over three years. He comes back and
00:36:55
Speaker
he scores the opening goal and what a goal as well, a brilliant goal, a champion goal as Luciano Spelletti scored where he kind of did a curler from the edge of the area into the far top corner and that's a beautiful story, isn't it, Nemo?
00:37:08
Speaker
No, it is, and he's probably the most informative player right now. I think we said last week, or I think I'm pretty sure we both said, or I know I said that, you know, I think he's going to start, and I think he's right that he starts because he is the most informative player in all of Seryam, probably the most, you know, together with Berardi, the most informative player. And it is a beautiful story, and it's really cool to see. And I think in this system,
00:37:32
Speaker
in the Spaletti system, like I said, I think he can be Spaletti's Zielinski in lack of other options right now, being ready to take on that role. We've been talking about Pacina doing it, but he's not quite ready to do that. Jack van Aventura is ready to do that right now, and he's doing it really well. So I'm really happy for him. And I think he's, I mean, he's not, how old is he? He's not too old, is he? 34.
00:37:56
Speaker
Yeah, that's the kind of age where you're like, well, he's ready now. And if he can have one of those amazing seasons.
00:38:05
Speaker
where he's just good at this nine-month period, and he plays at this high level, because we know the quality he has. He's just not been able to express that consistently throughout his career. But if he can have one of those seasons, then that's good for Italy, because I think he does have a role to play in this system. I really do think so. At least for now, given that there are no other viable options to play that kind of Zielinski role in the Spaleti midfield.
00:38:34
Speaker
Yeah, if he could maintain the form that he's played at the moment, I guess we'll have to see how he does against the bigger teams. But it was a lovely story. He also dedicated the call up and the goals of his father, who only died recently as well. But yeah, he has been an underrated player, I think, in the last years. And he was unlucky also to be at Milan at the time when they were just a bit of a joke at the time. So that was a little bit unfortunate.
00:39:04
Speaker
But I mean, other positives from this game, I mean, obviously, Berardi scoring two goals. I didn't think his overall game was that amazing, but you can't complain. The two goals that he scored are two fantastic finishes, especially that first one, which has become a little bit of a kind of vintage Berardi goal now, hasn't it? Like, curler from the right into the far corner.
00:39:27
Speaker
I think Moisakine did all right. I think Moisakine got better as the game went on. Spelletti seems to like him. He's aggressive. The pace is pressing. He's a handful. He puts himself about. He forces errors from the defenders.
00:39:47
Speaker
He officially got two assists, although kind of not really assists, but officially they were assists. I am personally, I know Zucchini has now been withdrawn as well, so he won't be available for England game. Personally, I prefer Keene to Zucchini.
00:40:04
Speaker
I would take Keene over as a candidate because I just think that, yeah, technically not the best, awareness is terrible, his passing is not the best at times as well, but he's a handful and he puts teams under pressure. I prefer Keene to Zaken.
00:40:19
Speaker
Personally, no, I think, yeah, no, look, Zakani, when he's informed, can do a useful job. But he's not really informed right now, in my opinion. So maybe now leave him out. And Moizkin has been playing really well, both, you know, as well. So and he offers, well, it is kind of tactical flexibility that he likes. So no, I definitely think so. But yeah.
00:40:40
Speaker
I mean, the other positive is the defence conceded nothing. Just one mistake by DiMarco, which Bastoni rescued. But apart from that, they conceded nothing. Obviously, they're planning it's a very poor team. So I guess you would expect that. I think the pressing was good. That's my biggest. That's the one thing that I take collectively that I take from this game that I thought was good. Like you can see that is the one thing that you can see that Spoletti has brought to this Italy team is that
00:41:06
Speaker
they're winning the ball high, they're winning it that fast, and their pressing is really good. And if there's nothing else from these attackers, we know we're lacking quality in attack, especially with Kiezer out as well, that these three guys, they're very good pressers, Kien, Raspadori's fantastic presser, and Beradi as well. I mean, these guys win the ball back. So that is something that I think has been very good, certainly in the last two games under Spoletti. And also,
00:41:35
Speaker
Udoji coming on for his debut. Yeah, I was going to say that. Which is lovely. And he got his assist as well. Yeah, no, I was happy to see that as well. I was really, really happy to see him come in and show what he can do. I think he's going to be really important. And of course, Fratesi scoring again. Yeah, which is nice. No, it's nice. My biggest negative was one, I mean, until Bonaventura scored,
00:42:04
Speaker
we were creating nothing at all. And even until Berardi scored the second goal, that would be the only thing we'd done all game, which was a moment of magic from one event. Sorry, it wasn't through collective play, but in the end we won.
00:42:21
Speaker
The state of play though, I want to talk about that just so it's clear where we stand going into the England game on Tuesday because this match against England for Italy, really, unless Italy win,
Italy's Path to Qualification: England and Ukraine Matches
00:42:42
Speaker
In my opinion, it makes no difference whether they lose or draw. It's not going to make any difference. And I'll tell you why. The situation as we stand is England at the top of the group played five 13 points. Italy a second in the group played five 10 points. Ukraine third played six 10 points. So they played a game more. Macedonia fourth played six seven points and then Malta bottom of the group no points after after six games. Now,
00:43:09
Speaker
Ukraine have got Malta also on Tuesday. Now, we're going to expect Ukraine to win that game. So they're going to go up to 13 points, and Ukraine will have one game left in the group. And that will be against Italy at home, strictly at home, or that will be a neutral venue in the final game of the group. Now, Italy's remaining games are England away, obviously, on Tuesday. And then they play Macedonia at home.
00:43:38
Speaker
and in the November break and then Ukraine away three days after that in the same same international window. Now if in Italy were to lose against England on Tuesday, assuming of course that Ukraine beat Malta, which I'm sure they will, that means that if Italy beat Macedonia at home
00:44:02
Speaker
they will be level one points with Ukraine going into that final game. But Italy will be ahead on the head-to-head because they beat Ukraine at home, which will mean that Italy will just need a draw.
00:44:17
Speaker
in that game against Ukraine in order to qualify for Euro 2024, Ukraine will have to win. Now, if Italy were to draw with England, then assuming that Ukraine beat Malta and Italy beat Macedonia,
00:44:32
Speaker
Well, Italy will go into that game against Ukraine one point ahead of Ukraine, which doesn't change the dynamic at all. Italy still needs to draw and Ukraine still needs to win. So it makes no difference whether they win. The only way it will help Italy is if Italy beat England,
00:44:51
Speaker
on Tuesday and then they beat Macedonia and again assuming Ukraine beat Malta then Italy will go into that final game into Ukraine three points ahead and what that will mean that is assuming that Italy go into that game with a superior goal difference to Ukraine which I think they should do unless Ukraine is massive.
00:45:09
Speaker
Well, it depends. Ukraine could get a massive win against Malta on Tuesday. But assuming they do have a better goal if it's going into that final game of Ukraine, that will mean that Italy will be able to afford losing by a goal against Ukraine. It will mean Ukraine will have to beat Italy by two goals in order to, if that makes sense, because the head-to-heads
00:45:28
Speaker
it will come down to head to head and Ukraine will have to get a better than one goal difference. If it's a one goal win then it will go to goal difference because that's what happens next. So basically the point is Italy should just go for the win against England, go for the win, go all out for the win because it makes no difference really whether they draw or they lose.
00:45:47
Speaker
And I think, and I expect that, I expect Valeti to prepare for that as well. I think he'll feel his strongest 11. I mean, he will feel the strongest 11 against him. He didn't do that against Malta. I want to see, I want to see him play
00:46:10
Speaker
I want to see Udoji from the start. I want to see Barela step up. I want to see Italy go for it. And I want Italy to dominate and play their game and really put themselves and show who they are under this Spalletti. I want to see them
00:46:36
Speaker
I want to see them show their mettle. I want them to show who they're made of. I want to see Skamaka starting. I want to see... Do you know what I mean? I want them to take the game to England, because England have nothing to play for, really, if we're perfectly honest. But Italy can actually get a really good morale boost if they give a good performance against it. I mean, beating England at Wembley is always beating England at Wembley, and England are one of the best sides in the world. So I really want to see them go for it.
00:47:07
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it's going to be a difficult game. I'm going to be honest. I think Italy have a lot of... I mean, they're decimating Italy. They've got a lot of players out. And the attack... Yeah, I'm not sure how much quality we've got in attack to do damage in this game. It is going to be very, very difficult. I want Skamaka to start. I want him to score his first two goals for the Italian national team at Wembley.
00:47:37
Speaker
I'm not sure whether I would start Schumacher. In an ideal world, if he was fully fit, if he was fully in form and sharp, then yes, I would start him. But I'm not sure how fully fit and sharp he is. He's been in and out with injury this season.
00:47:57
Speaker
Obviously, this whole year has been bad for him with injury. I don't know if he's ready for this game. I'm not sure. I mean, if he's called up, he should be physically fit to play some part. But to start, to play the majority of a game, I don't know. I don't know. I wasn't impressed massively by him when he came on the other night either. So I don't know. I think that's a difficult question. I don't think that game is going to be... I think Berardi definitely will start now. No, Berardi definitely has to start.
00:48:26
Speaker
The other places I don't think this is for certain, who's going to ask this question? For me, it's Kama Caraspadori Berardi. That's the front three I would go with. I would start the game with those three. In midfield, Barela,
00:48:41
Speaker
locatelli and probably fratazzi yeah i think so i think you need fratazzi's legs in this game and you need someone who can run and i probably play the same defense and barring you know i'd start the marco actually well you'd bring it would you not bring in a cherby instead of mancini surely you play a cherby and next to pastoni against me against harry kane i mean but i mean a cherby fair enough yeah
00:49:08
Speaker
A Cherby's been insane in every single time he's played against a B. I think Kane, probably Kane in the away game, did a job on the Elite events. He was brilliant in that game. But other than that, A Cherby, his record against the best strikers in the world over the last couple of years is insane. I don't think there's a better, honestly don't think there's a better defender centre back in the whole of Europe.
00:49:28
Speaker
who has a better record than a Chevy against the best player. I've seen him against Lewandowski. I've seen him against Erlen Harland against who else? I mean, there's some other ones as well. Oh, he's done some ones done pretty good against Osseman as well. Osseman Giroud. I mean, his record is amazing against the best. I just think like I love this new dodgy, but
00:49:53
Speaker
I'd probably start DiMarco if you're starting Skamaka. If Skamaka doesn't start, I'd start Udoji. It's one of the two. Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? That one. Because DiMarco is left foot and crossing.
00:50:11
Speaker
Yeah. No, Saka's out for England. So, you know, if Saka was playing, I'd maybe go with, I'd maybe think about a dodgy more because I watched them in the North London Derby and he did a really good, after a difficult start, he did really, really well. He worked himself into the game, didn't he? Yeah. Yeah. But Saka's out. I mean, the England team,
00:50:35
Speaker
that's going to be interesting to see who they play behind Kane because obviously sackers out, Rashford's not been in the best of form, so I mean at the moment I think they're thinking it's going to be Foden, Bellingham and Madison as the three behind Kane.
00:50:54
Speaker
Madison's been in great form this evening as well. He's been unbelievable for Spurs. And Foden is Foden, we know what he can do, he's such a talented player. It's a shame Kiezer's not fit because England don't have a left back.
00:51:12
Speaker
Southgate's not even called up a left back. They've got Trippier playing at left back. So someone like Giese could have really, could have really thought through. But I'm starting to get annoyed now. This is the second international break he's pulled out of. I don't understand what's going on there. Like it's starting to annoy me because Italy need him. I know. I know. That's a huge blow. That's a huge blow because we saw...
00:51:35
Speaker
Yeah, but I guess this is what happens, isn't it? After ACLs, you get knock-on injuries that happen. I just hope this isn't something that's going to be consistently, you know, he's going to get lots of injuries now going on. I really hope not. But, you know, he's been reasonably fit for Juventus.
00:51:53
Speaker
this season. That's what I mean. It's the Italy games. That's what annoys me. And it's like, well, we need to manage him more. And especially with a you that's only playing once a week. I don't understand what they're doing. It's frustrating. No, it's very, very frustrating. Yeah. Well, let's say it's, it's, it's, it's,
00:52:13
Speaker
England's chance to qualify and the chance for revenge for Euro 2020 final for England as well. It's crazy to think, I was thinking about this the other day, that from that Euro 2020 final, I believe there will only be three Italians left from that start in 11 in the Euro 2020 final that will start this game. That will be Donald Ruma
00:52:34
Speaker
Di Borenzo and Barella. And that's it. I think, I don't think I've missed anyone else out. So that's, um, you know, Keilini, Bernucci. No, I can't tell you. So he came on. Emerson was the left back. Barella, Giorginio and Verratti in midfield. They're not there. And then up front, it was in Marbella. He's not there. Insinio has gone. But how did he start, did he?
00:52:59
Speaker
No, he did it. No, he came on. He came on as a Serbia when Kiesa got injured. So yeah, that kind of shows the turnaround. Well, yeah, it is. But at the same time, I would probably have Verati in this game.
00:53:14
Speaker
I would. I think it's interesting, isn't it? When Canali was withdrawn, he decided to call up Ritchie instead. Well, I love that. Of course he loved that. He loved Ritchie. But yeah, I think that someone like Guilazzi probably could have done a job, but then I don't know. I haven't been following him in Qatar. Has he played yet? No, that's fair. I don't know.
00:53:32
Speaker
I don't know what's going on there. It doesn't feel like it. I'm a little bit surprised. I mean, you know, it's a bit annoying, not surprised, but it's a little bit annoying that Rettigy is gone, Immobula is gone, Kirz is gone. It's just...
00:53:45
Speaker
I guess in this game, like when you... Oh no, they've got tons of players out, Italy, this game. Let's not forget that, you know, especially when it also, remember, when it comes to having options off the bench, then that becomes a problem. Even El Shaddari has been recalled, I mean.
00:54:03
Speaker
I mean, El Shurawi in 2023 in the Italy national team. I mean, you know, so we are decimating it. Let's not pretend Pellegrini is out as well. It's annoying. It's annoying. But no, I mean, Italy should. I really want them to go for it regardless, because I think this could be kind of a learning experience as well for many of these young players.
00:54:23
Speaker
Like I said, they might as well go for it because a win or a draw or a loss, it makes no difference at all. So we might as well go for it. And who knows? England, Italy can get the first goal. That might play on England a little bit. I want Skamaka to shut everyone up. Oh my God, how I want Skamaka to shut everyone up.
00:54:51
Speaker
Yeah, sorry. The thing is, I really like the kid because I really think he's a unique kind of striker that Italy have not been anywhere near of producing for a generation and I think the talent he has
00:55:05
Speaker
Please can you start expressing that because he is technical, he's big, he's strong, he's technical, he can shoot. Yeah, he's got all the, definitely got all the technical, physical qualities. Has he got the mental qualities? Also, how does he move around the pitch? Like he needs to, sometimes I feel like he needs to, his movement needs to improve. He's a bit static. Yeah, he's a bit static and I think Spoletti's definitely can improve that.
00:55:28
Speaker
Oh yeah. That's something Spelletti can definitely work at with him. And I guess Gasparini as well, because Gasparini is very much a manager that likes players to move around, doesn't he? So I think that is what he needs to improve. Don't be so static, don't be Mario Balotelling, just stand there, wait for the ball to come to. This international rig
Conclusion and Miscellaneous Topics
00:55:50
Speaker
has been mad. And get rid of the neck tattoo as well.
00:55:51
Speaker
No, no, no. Leave the neck. Leave Italian Ibra with the neck tattoo alone. Look, this international break, speaking of Balotelli, him and Ibrahimovic going at it as well. I mean, this has been an absolutely batshit international break. I remember the international breaks were times where
00:56:07
Speaker
moments for us to kind of relax a little bit, but it's been absolutely mental. No, I can't do this. They need to chill with the international breaks. Like the next one needs to be boring. Seriously. No, it's not going to be because it's because it's the plane Ukraine to qualify for the Euros. Lovely. Lovely. Right. Okay. Let's just finish off with bad joke and prim face of the week.
00:56:31
Speaker
Okay. Badgeo. I mean, what we think in Bonaventura, the Badgeo of the week? It has to be. Yeah. Yeah. For me, for me, it's, uh, yeah. I mean, the story, everything about it is.
00:56:43
Speaker
His has to be and also he's such a great character as well, isn't he? Some people are very charismatic and he just comes across as really charismatic. I mean, the way he celebrates and the expressions on his face when he celebrates, I really like him. And it was a very good goal and it's a nice story. So yeah, give it to Bonaventura. Yeah, absolutely. And Prem Face of the Week, do you have anyone? I've got one. We'll go for it.
00:57:11
Speaker
Yeah, our prim face hunter Samuel Ventress. Thank you, Sam. He's our he's our man. He's our chief inspector. Yeah, so Henry Winter saying after England beat Australia, that England will smash Euro 2024. And also used as evidence the fact that an Australian, Australia player had said that as well.
00:57:38
Speaker
I mean, I think Australia are a decent side, but I mean, I wouldn't go... Look, as I've said, I have England winning the Euros, and I've had that for quite some time. I mean, ever since the World Cup in Russia, I'd said, this generation of England players will win a tournament. I think 2024 is the year when they'll do it.
00:57:57
Speaker
But that's because I've been looking at it for a couple of years and how they've been developing in Southgate in this generation. I don't think the Australia game has anything to do with that. It's just a silly thing to say. And this is what I mean. They say anything for effect. Do you know what I mean? Anything, like just momentarily. There's no analysis. There's no thought process. It's just, bow.
00:58:18
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? Like just smashing out big letters on the back pages, the front page. It's just, it's so, it's so lowest common denominator, isn't it? It's just, it's just so, so tabloidy. Do you know what I mean? It's just so tabloidy.
00:58:35
Speaker
It really is. Can I just, just to finish off, I have to say, I've just, just opened my Twitter mentions now and one of our Patreons, good friend of ours, Majin Tenshi, says you have to make, you have to make Nim a badger every week for his performance on, um, on George Galloway's show on Sunday evening. I have to second that. I was, I was in awe. I don't want us to, I don't want us to be a police officer.
00:58:56
Speaker
podcast, but I just want to say, everybody listens to that. I mean, NIMA was absolutely magnificent. Well, thank you, Majin, and thank you. And yeah, I mean, it's been very, very kind to everyone who's gone in touch. But I don't, we, Carlo and I don't want this to be, we don't want to, we want to stay within the topic that we talk about. And in the context of Italian football and football general, we will talk about issues.
00:59:21
Speaker
But yeah, whenever they come up, we're not afraid to, but we don't want it to turn into a political debate or an arena. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, right. Let's leave it at that. We'll be back on Tuesday for the Q&A. Until then, ciao ciao.