Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
How Modern Tree Genetics Are Changing Forestry Forever /w Paul Jeffreys from ArborGen
11 Plays5 months ago
Is the American forest really vanishing? Paul Jeffreys says otherwise—and he’s got the science to back it up. In this episode, we sit down with Arborgen’s South Central Reforestation Advisor to explore how modern genetics and smarter land management are not just saving forests but making them more productive than ever. Learn how intentional planning, controlled pollination, and landowner education are producing stronger trees, healthier ecosystems, and better long-term returns.
Whether you’re a landowner, environmental advocate, or just tree-curious—this one’s for you.
🎧 Tune in to find out:
- Why there are more trees today than when Columbus arrived
- How forest genetics work (and why they matter)
- What decisions today mean for timber 30 years from now
- How reforestation balances ecology, economy, and landowner goals
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Paul Jeffries and His Role
00:00:00
Speaker
Today we're talking to Paul Jeffries, South Central Reforestation Advisor for ArborGen and a lifelong forestry expert. His job? Helping landowners grow stronger, more valuable forests, whether for timber investment, wildlife habitat, or keeping land in the family for generations.
00:00:18
Speaker
Each individual landowner has his or her own management objectives.
Forestry in America: A Historical Perspective
00:00:23
Speaker
And if you think America's forests are disappearing, Paul sets the record straight. We have more trees in the United States than we had when Christopher Columbus discovered.
00:00:33
Speaker
Thanks to advancements in genetics and technology, today's trees grow straighter, stronger, and with less waste than ever before. And if you think trees are just standing there quietly, think again.
00:00:47
Speaker
Is it true that trees can talk to each other? Yes. This episode is packed with insights on reforestation, forestry's future, and why the trees we plant today matter more than ever.
00:00:59
Speaker
Let's get into it.
The Concept of Tree Communication
00:01:06
Speaker
Welcome back to the Wood World Podcast. On this episode, we're going to have an incredible conversation with a friend of mine. His name is Paul. We'll ask Paul to introduce himself in a second.
00:01:18
Speaker
Man, I've been looking forward to having this conversation. on our episode because you'll hear from the man, the myth, the legend himself. This guy is impressive. The first conversations we had and set the stage, we've met at a conference and I felt like, Paul, I knew you for a long time.
00:01:39
Speaker
Listen, can you give us a little blurb?
Paul Jeffries' Background and Passion
00:01:42
Speaker
What's your name? Where do you work? And give us a little taste oh of the knowledge base that you've got. So I'm Paul Jeffries.
00:01:51
Speaker
I am reforestation advisor for ArborGen. i am I cover Alabama and Mississippi and part of Tennessee. um I live in my hometown or my family one of my family properties is is in Detroit, Alabama.
00:02:10
Speaker
And i went to school at Mississippi State University where I majored in forestry. um Got my bachelor's degree in forestry, a master's of science degree in forest genetics, and then got my PhD degree working in bottomland hardwood, ah working with working in oh sweet gum, cherry bark,
00:02:35
Speaker
natural stands in the southeast looking at growth and yield. So I have a varied background. um when i was As I was growing up, I just had such a love and passion for the outdoors.
00:02:49
Speaker
that when it came to going to school, there was no question of what I wanted to major in. But once I got into the field of forestry, it was very difficult for me to narrow it down to specific ah disciplines because I wanted to do it all.
00:03:04
Speaker
I was just passionate about the environment. I was passionate about wildlife. I was passionate about ah forest, timber, trees. um You know, I was um just, I guess, my favorite thing in the world outside of my family, my faith, is so is the outdoors and trees and the natural environment.
00:03:30
Speaker
Paul, my
Early Forestry Work and Landowner Goals
00:03:31
Speaker
goodness, man. It's going to be exciting. So the first question I love asking when a guest joins is, where in the wood world do you fit? Because as we define the wood world, man, there's a lot that goes on.
00:03:43
Speaker
We're talking about, you know, all the wood world, how we define it is, you know, start all these value streams that you got with wood and wood products. And that all starts way up in forestry with the seedlings and all ah all of what we're about to talk about, sneak preview.
00:04:00
Speaker
But then there's so much value streams. You know, you've got the forest that get harvested and then sawmills make lumber. And you've got all the lumber products value streams. And you've got, you know, all these other types of,
00:04:12
Speaker
hardwoods that get used for other types of purposes. And so, man, there's a lot to unpack. Where in the wood world, Paul, do you fit? So I guess you could say in the wood world with my where I am right now would be in the beginning, ah you know, kind of like in Genesis chapter one, in the beginning.
00:04:32
Speaker
So um I work with Arborgen and or and and we produce seedlings for reforestation. So one reason why I love my job and passionate about what I do is because I help landowners pick the seedling, the genetic, and we'll get into that a little bit later, but as to what that is, but I help landowners basically paint their painting, their tapestry of what they want their private property to be like.
00:05:07
Speaker
What do they want it to What do they want to leave to their children and their grandchildren? What do they want it to be? Do they want it to be a productive pine forest? I work with landowners to get them the right product to to to meet that objective and to make them successful.
00:05:28
Speaker
So Arbogen, that's your current employer. And what's a day look like in Paul's life? you so You mentioned it a little bit. You're you're meeting with... private landowners, you said, or maybe public landowners, like who are you meeting with? Who do you actually work with? What's a day look like in Paul's life?
Daily Interactions and Education in Forestry
00:05:43
Speaker
Well, I don't know if I can describe a day, what a day looks like in the life of, ah in my life, the life of Paul Jeffries. I would say, depending on the time of the year, the, um,
00:05:57
Speaker
You know, my day is spent working with a meeting with private landowners, meeting with forestry consultants, meeting with foresters, meeting with tree planters and service providers.
00:06:15
Speaker
ah So it's very rare that I have two days back to back that I'm doing the same thing. ah because I am meeting with groups, I'm meeting with individuals, I'm speaking with, like I said, service providers. so an average day in my in my life is is having a lot of discussions about seedlings and genetics and the benefits of ah replanting
00:06:50
Speaker
and the success you can have when you have a proper management plan and it's implemented.
00:07:00
Speaker
So, Paul, is it safe to assume that on a daily basis you're working with folks who are familiar with all these topics that are hot topics in the modern day?
00:07:11
Speaker
Or are you having to educate people? Like what's what's that process look like when you when you meet somebody? Are they already educated? Are they well aware of their options? How today's decisions impact long term?
00:07:23
Speaker
Or are you having to educate them, Paul? Well, and that's a very good question. Actually, ah ah have ah ah a lot of both. ah So before I left, before I came and accepted the job with Arborgen, I was a instructor at Mississippi State and I taught classes and taught students and I took that experience into my career with Arborgen and now I spend a lot of time with landowners who don't know exactly what's available to them ah in um the way of seedlings.
00:07:59
Speaker
and I help educate them on the new technology that has come out and it is technology. Genetics is the same, is technology just like the latest cell phone and seedlings is is technology just like the latest computer that has come out. So it's And it's it just like that technology, it's ever evolving. So I work with landowners, educating them.
00:08:24
Speaker
And then I'm also helping educate foresters who may not be working with oh the this all the time and may not have um all the information about what they can make available to their clients.
00:08:41
Speaker
and And then working with service for providers, they may not be aware of this new product or this new family that has come out. So I'm educating a lot of people. you'll pregnant as you ki
Diverse Objectives of Landowners
00:08:56
Speaker
That's incredible.
00:08:57
Speaker
And that's definitely what I saw in our first conversations together and why I was really excited to invite you to the podcast, Paul, is I'll just list here when I asked Paul,
00:09:08
Speaker
Hey, what kind of topics can we dive into? i loved your answer. Well, I can talk about everything forestry. We can talk about, you mentioned it to me, I'll read a list. Private landowners, renewable resources, woods to good, sustainability, markets, genetics, silviculture, reforestation, afforestation, wildlife, and the list goes on.
00:09:27
Speaker
And I was like, all right, this might be a multi-series podcast episode. But listen, I guess when you go to meet with people, What are the common things that you're hearing and that maybe you could start weaving those?
00:09:40
Speaker
Give us a give us a taste. Paint with a wide paintbrush right now. Just give us a taste of those topics that maybe I listed or others that come up as you're doing your work.
00:09:51
Speaker
What are these common ah topics you're having to speak about? Well, be a and and that's one reason why I like forestry so much is there's so many topics and there's so many, um, uh, rabbit holes you can go down and and everything, but, you know, every landowner has their different objectives.
00:10:14
Speaker
And want this landowner, for instance, may only be focused in, um, Timber management and um timber product production.
00:10:25
Speaker
But typically your private landowner, they're interested in um timber production, but they also have an equal interest in wildlife habitat improvement.
00:10:37
Speaker
And while I'm not a wildlife biologist by education, I can help through you know education and in helping them merge those two objectives to reach an overall objective of what I call just ecosystem management.
00:10:54
Speaker
And all of those topics that you just listed is something that goes into and should go into every management decision that's made. Am I going to refort? Well, first of all, when am I going to to to to do the harvest?
00:11:10
Speaker
When am I going to perform the harvest on my my stand that is existing now? How am I going to re-prepare the site for the next stand that's going to be planting? Am I going to do natural regeneration? Am I going to do oh oh artificial regeneration, replanting?
00:11:27
Speaker
oh Am I going to machine plant hand plant? am i going put and And within each one of these those major topics are sub tiers.
00:11:38
Speaker
So going back to site prep, am I only going to chemical site prep? Do I have enough fuel on the ground to do a site prep ah prescribed fire to get the site ready? Do I need to machine plant or hand plant after that?
00:11:52
Speaker
You know, so all of those topics, the field of forestry is very dynamic and it's very, it's a large ball, I guess you could say, of disciplines.
00:12:05
Speaker
And so as a forester and with the people that I'm meeting with, I have to have knowledge in every one of those facets. So, you know, it's very diverse and very um um convoluted, but it is it it it all works together for a common goal. And that is ecosystem management, the environment, and making sure that the wood products that are needed in today's economy are being produced to the best that they can be produced in the
00:12:38
Speaker
They, it is, it is all very, ah um there's little waste. It's all very, very, oh all, everything is used. Paul, here at ah at a high level where the audience of our podcast are two types, two groups of people.
00:12:57
Speaker
The one group is the ones that go to association meetings are, you know, more aware of the benefits of wood and wood products. They are convinced that it's it's good to use and to participate in the but forest management, all these things.
00:13:14
Speaker
The other group of people that are listening here you know don't know all the details of the things that you just listed. And though and I think that you know kind of a broad statement here, but when let's say one of these folks who are just you know parts of these communities that don't know forestry and all these topics, they may see log truck driving them down the side of the road and have some kind of a reaction, emotional reaction, or they're driving by and there was a stand, let's say, and then, you know, for years, let's say there was a stand and then they see an area where it was either thinned or were cut. So harvested, right?
00:13:53
Speaker
Can you speak about kind of like, as we go into our conversation here with both both perspectives, there may be somebody who's really aware and there may be somebody who's not really aware and let's just dive in.
00:14:04
Speaker
how How does this forest cycle work?
The Forest Cycle and its Environmental Benefits
00:14:08
Speaker
And can you go ahead and get into some of these topics? Yeah, sure. So, you know, forestry and let's let's let's narrow it down just a little bit more and let's say the Southern Yellow Pine ah forestry timber markets in the Southeast, which is typically what you see the products that go into building materials are made of and your paper products. So let's just let's let's narrow it down to that ah to that.
00:14:39
Speaker
group And so the the typical rotation on timber is started with, you can look at it as either you started with the clear cut or you started with with the reforestation.
00:14:53
Speaker
So, you know, typically a timber stand is reforested. We'll just start with the reforestation. It is reforested with either bare root or containerized seedlings. We can talk about that a little later, but that stand will be planted.
00:15:10
Speaker
It will be allowed to grow for about 15, on average, about 15 years. And then there will come in, there will be a first thin. And typically in that first thin, you're removing the products that are either going into paper products or going into the interior walls of um buildings, which we call two by fours into lumber.
00:15:33
Speaker
And the remaining trees are what is known as residual trees after that first harvest has been taken, are then allowed to grow out for another 10 to 15 years, somewhere around the final age of 20 to 25.
00:15:48
Speaker
Now, if the landowner and the timber markets in that area are conducive and the landowner has it in his objectives, he can or he or she can perform what's called a second thin.
00:16:00
Speaker
And then they will go in and they will take out some more trees. And we can talk about later about why thinning is important to the timber stand. But, you know, typically ah you do one or two thins and then you will do a final harvest.
00:16:15
Speaker
Well, the final harvest, the goal is in that final harvest for it to be 100% of your higher value timber products, which typically are your saw timber or your poles.
00:16:29
Speaker
And your saw timber is what goes to the mill and is turned into your long term forest products, such as lumber, plywood, stuff that is used in construction.
00:16:43
Speaker
Now, that is a typical rotation. And oh V, i want to I want to say this is no different. It it is it is not any different than agricultural oh crops like corn, ah cotton, soybeans.
00:16:59
Speaker
It's just on a longer rotation. So like with agricultural crops where we get our food from, and we get our cotton for the clothes that we wear. The same thing goes, it's the same process without the thinnings.
00:17:14
Speaker
You prepare the site, you plant the seed, you nurture the crop, and then you harvest it within one year. Well, it's the same thing with timber, except it's over longer periods of time.
00:17:25
Speaker
And I think people that get that have a um you know that that are have mixed emotions about harvesting timber they they they they don't get that connection because timber is such a long rotation that, and and look, in the Southeastern United States, our rotation length is short if you call if it's relative to like out in the Northwest.
00:17:50
Speaker
But 25 to 30 years for a rotation for us, oh you know people people have mixed emotions about that. However, If you look at it and you look on at it on an environmental standpoint and you look at it from that avenue, it is very good for the environment because those timber stands that are growing are sucking carbon out of the atmosphere.
00:18:17
Speaker
Right. You're converting that carbon into lumber, which is a long-term carbon storage. Right. So, you know, everything is made up of carbon. So if we grow that timber stand and it goes into...
00:18:31
Speaker
lumber. It goes into utility poles. You're storing carbon from the atmosphere. You know, how long does the average house last? How long does the average um utility pole last?
00:18:46
Speaker
Decades. Sometimes centuries as you know, for you know for for large buildings. So you're storing carbon that you have sequestered from the atmosphere into a product, and it's going to stay stored carbon.
00:19:03
Speaker
And then you're going to restart the stand, which is even going to pull more carbon out of the atmosphere. And then you're going to grow it out. And then it's just an ever revive revol ever ever revolving process. It never stops.
00:19:18
Speaker
And and and hone when you do that, you're just doing so much more for the environment. Whereas like using other products, you're not pulling carbon out, you're creating carbon.
00:19:30
Speaker
So, you know, that's the beauty of forestry and, you know, how forestry helps the environment. That's incredible. Man, that's powerful.
00:19:43
Speaker
So I think ah another thing that I've been seeing, so recently I went to Alabama, I was in Texas, and in Texas, I was visiting friends who manage they their tree stands, theirre their land, and it was very interesting, Paul.
00:19:59
Speaker
I'm going to get to my question in a second, but we were riding a side-by-side, and we werere driving and were literally riding through the managed stand, and then just we were basically on the edge of the property and on the other side of the fence was unmanaged and it was such a stark difference, unmanaged versus managed.
00:20:18
Speaker
Can you speak to that?
Managed vs Unmanaged Forests: Ecological Roles
00:20:20
Speaker
And I think it'd be very important to draw people's attention to, well, there's natural forests and these plantation forests. And that's maybe even more helps to illustrate the point that you were making earlier about lumber or lumber coming from trees that are crop.
00:20:37
Speaker
planted on a long-term rotation. can you speak to that, managed versus unmanaged? Yeah, I'd be glad to. and and And I don't, you know, like I said earlier, each individual landowner has his or her own management objectives.
00:20:51
Speaker
And some, you know, most landowners want to go back and manage their timber, but there are still landowners out there that they just want natural management. They want it to develop naturally.
00:21:03
Speaker
And I'm not going to say that there's anything wrong with that. That is, you know, oh when I was in forestry school, I was taught about successional stages. And as a forester, we manage successional stages. And what a successional stage is, is when you start off with a, I call it a blank canvas.
00:21:24
Speaker
It's just basically bare soil. When you start off with bare soil, there is going to be a natural stand of plants that establish on that soil because that's what they grow. em And when you start with that, you're going to you're going to have what's called your light seeded species come in first.
00:21:46
Speaker
Those are usually your grasses, then your forbs come in, then you're going to go to your light-seated timber tree species, which is your pines and everything. And eventually, if you do not how if you do not go in and have any inputs into the the life of that stand, it will eventually evolve into long-lived hardwood, natural hardwood stain of what in the southeast, we you know, in the southeast here, here it's it's oaks and, and, and,
00:22:16
Speaker
um other hardwoods depending on the site. so But that takes a long time to develop. I'm talking about hundreds of years for it to develop into that.
00:22:28
Speaker
and so and So that's natural reforestation and that's natural um environment. There's nothing wrong with that. That's that's Mother Nature. That's the way it was created.
00:22:42
Speaker
um create However, as foresters with management, when we get into managed stands, we pick out the section of that natural succession, those natural successional stages. We pick out the stage that we want to develop our products in.
00:23:02
Speaker
And that stage is typically in that middle where the light-seeded timber species, i.e. loblolly pine, ah come in.
00:23:13
Speaker
and develop and that's where we grow our materials from. So natural reforestation again is is it's perfectly fine if that's your management objective and that' that's what you want to do.
00:23:28
Speaker
Managed forest on this side is perfectly fine if you if you're wanting to have a financial return from your forest. you want to create and help and you know You want to create forest products for the world to use.
00:23:44
Speaker
ah And so that's that's the difference. We use we use both. Paul, I specifically want to ask you maybe a couple of things. So, for example, I saw that star difference as was explaining to you.
00:23:56
Speaker
We were actually on the side by side able to get through and because it was managed, it was taken care of. There was, you know, there was shrubs and little bushes and such around. wasn't just like a pristine.
00:24:09
Speaker
i mean, it was clear, it was clean. It was able, we were able to get through it. I'm just saying it's not bare. There are trees there and there's there's other plants, but on the other side of the fence, I saw, i mean, there was no way to get through it.
00:24:21
Speaker
We saw and observed trees that aren't growing straight like you'd want them to be you know for harvesting purposes. They were falling over. Some were dying. They were competing with other species. And so was kind of like this hodgepodge where you can't get through it.
00:24:36
Speaker
It's not really usable. And at the end of the day, you could just see the stark difference.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, I mean. Yeah. Well, let's go back to something you said there, Bidin. Yeah. So you you you went back, you you said there that that the unmanaged stand was not usable.
00:24:56
Speaker
It's not that it's not usable. An unmanaged stand in its early years, its early successional stages will come up and is very thick like that. is usable, but not by us.
00:25:09
Speaker
It's usable for wildlife that are adapted to that habitat. And that's why forestry, forest and forest management is so diverse is you're looking at the big picture and those stands.
00:25:23
Speaker
Yes, that stand was not usable by us for the products that it was producing, but there are still wildlife species that are utilizing that stand. Over here where you've got the managed stand and you could ride through it and you could, um, um,
00:25:39
Speaker
you know, get into the understory, it's also usable by wildlife species. And it's, but it's also, you're, you're, you're, you're basically using both.
00:25:51
Speaker
The unmanaged, it's only usable by wildlife. The managed is usable by wildlife and us as the consumer producer and consumer. Yeah.
00:26:02
Speaker
I guess, could you define terms when, when we say use these different terms, managed, unmanaged, what is, what does that mean? So a managed stand is is just like I said, when it's managed, you're you're you're basically having no inputs into it. You're letting it develop naturally.
00:26:17
Speaker
Managed, you're managing those successional stages. You're going in and you're saying, okay, I'm going to I'm going to go in and reforest. Well, I'm going to skip these first successional stages of unmanagement. I'm going to go in and and and and start here.
00:26:36
Speaker
Instead of starting at A, you're going to start at maybe C, D, or E and go in. You're going to handle that. You're going to replant the tear the the forest that you, you know, after you harvest it, it's going to grow and it's going to develop into a mature stand.
00:26:51
Speaker
Paul, another observation that has to do with what we're talking about is just observation. If we zoom out to the United States and we look at you know the Northwest, very different forests and practices and like ma basically the whole West Coast, maybe California included, is very different.
00:27:08
Speaker
The species are different. The terrain is different. And then in the Northeast, we've got a lot of hardwood sawmills and a lot of guys doing hardwoods. But the South is a very unique area.
00:27:19
Speaker
place in the United States and actually I would say the world. I mean I've been to a whole lot of different countries and and have seen a lot of different things. I would venture to say that like the United States South or specifically even Alabama is like the way that Saudi Arabia is to oil. It feels like the way that that's the way that Alabama is for trees. Like it's abundant and plentiful.
00:27:41
Speaker
Can you speak to some of those observations of what makes the South and the United States so unique and specifically maybe Alabama, the regions that you're really familiar
Unique Aspects of Southern U.S. Forestry
00:27:49
Speaker
with? Well, it basically comes down to our environment and also our ah landowning ability.
00:27:57
Speaker
I am a private landowner myself. I have two family farms that have come down through my family, and I'm a timberland farmer. In the Northwest, or as you go West, you get into a lot of more public ownership of forest, where you have more public forests. So let's take you know let's let's let's let's take Alabama for instance.
00:28:19
Speaker
In Alabama, you may find this interesting. In Alabama, there are 23 million acres of timberland. okay Okay. All right. 93% of that is owned by what we call NIPF landowners, which is non-industrial private forest landowners. 93% of that is owned by NIPF landowners like me,
00:28:48
Speaker
ah like a lot of my friends. And so we are blessed in the Southeastern United States to be able to own land and to be able to manage that land and use that land as a oh financial investment.
00:29:07
Speaker
ah Whereas in the other parts of the United States and you have a lot of public land, then you have a lot of public input into that. So it's just like a lot of rules and regulations where in the Southeast, we have a lot of freedom with our with our owner land ownership.
00:29:24
Speaker
Okay. So also in the united Southeastern United States, what makes us and another thing that makes us unique are our climates and environments. a The climate and is in the southeast, we have, well, up until the last couple of years, we've had a couple of years of drought, but we typically have ample amount of rainfall.
00:29:47
Speaker
ah We have soils that are conducive for growing timber and the species that we want to grow that grows faster, that that can be can mature 25 to years.
00:30:01
Speaker
In the in the West part of the United States, you're looking at a stand that may take 80 to 100 years to mature, whereas in the southeastern with with our species, they can mature in 25 to 30 years. So we have a quick rotation when it comes to forest.
00:30:17
Speaker
oh And so and as in the north um east part of the United States, they have a lot of hardwood forest there. They can't grow the species that we grow down here.
00:30:30
Speaker
So it it's a combination of a lot of different things, but it basically comes down to environment and regulations.
00:30:40
Speaker
Does it have something to do with just my personal curiosity, the closer you get to the Gulf of Mexico versus getting more north or away? Is there relation? Yeah, I mean, that that goes into the climate of the region.
00:30:52
Speaker
ah You know, that goes into the to the weather and the climate that we have here in the Southeast. And it's unique for the for the entire country.
00:31:03
Speaker
Wow. And I guess while we're on the this zoomed out high level, I'm curious now too, can you speak a little bit about, I've heard people say growth to drain ratios, or that's maybe the but term that's used in the industry, but outside the industry, people you know have this big question like,
00:31:23
Speaker
Are there more trees now than there were before? Are we just mowing down the forest and destroying the environment? what What's the truth? what the What do you know? What do you see, Paul? So there's a lot of a lot of topics in that question that you just asked me. And and to go back to the beginning and talk about growth growth to drain ratio.
00:31:43
Speaker
We we are Like I've just discussed, we are blessed in the southeast with climates where we can grow timber and we can grow trees.
00:31:54
Speaker
And we have a lot of open land, ah private timber land and pasture land that is very abundant in the southeastern United States. So when you get a situation to where you have ample amount of land and you have the climate to grow the timber, ah you have a lot of people that are investing in that.
00:32:17
Speaker
camber ears and Timber and timber utilization is driven by markets and it's driven by the economy. So when your growth to drain ratio gets what we call skewed from one side to the other, it's it's usually a product of markets and the economy at that time not using the the the wood.
00:32:40
Speaker
However, it doesn't mean that it's always going to be that way. ah Your growth to drain ratio is, is like I said, it directly related to your economy and products.
00:32:55
Speaker
We're losing or we have lost a lot of our pulp producing manufacturers or pulp utilization manufacturers, i.e. like in paper, because of a surplus or a supply.
00:33:09
Speaker
We've got a lot of wood on the ground. We've also got a lowering in utilization and and and those markets are not as healthy as they have been in the past. So in the past, when people, let's continue with that example of footwood.
00:33:27
Speaker
In the past, when the trees that were available for reforestation, I still remember my father talking about second generation genetically improved pine trees. It was the new thing that came out in the 80s and maybe even before.
00:33:41
Speaker
that landowners were finally going to be able to get a genetically improved tree ah by selection and was going to be able to plant their timber stands with it.
00:33:53
Speaker
Well, they planted so much and so many trees per acre that now there is a lot of those stands that are just overstocked. So yes, your growth to drain ratio is skewed, but it's a product of of overstocking and it can be corrected by changing those management objectives.
00:34:17
Speaker
ah So that's that's that's why we have the situation with growth to drain that we have in the southeast. What is the, can you describe high level, what's the situation?
00:34:28
Speaker
that Are there more trees growing now are there less trees growing now? We have, I mean, historically, we have more trees in the United States than we had when Christopher Columbus discovered.
00:34:40
Speaker
Seriously? The country. Yes. We are more forested. We are more forested than we were when Christopher Columbus discovered America. Because of our reforestation practices that we have and our and our management that we're doing with the forest.
00:35:00
Speaker
Well, that sounds incredible. I mean, we've built so much out of wood oh since Christopher Columbus. and And still, you were saying we have even more now than when he was getting grown.
00:35:12
Speaker
Right. but Because, I mean, look, let's let's look at it from the, you know, um from let's just go back to the 1800s. And let's look at when the the people that were using the wood the settlers that were using the wood and the and when we were not managing anything, there was a it was called cut out and get out.
00:35:36
Speaker
And they would just come across the the railroads. They would come through the area. They'd cut the trees and just keep going. where they They really didn't have you know they didn't have anything to reforest with because the nurseries wasn't there.
00:35:48
Speaker
And the the settlers are in, let's just face it, it was the Industrial Revolution. And, you know, they were just needing the product to to build the Industrial revolution Revolution and keep it, you know, growing.
00:36:03
Speaker
They didn't know, you know, we look at it now and go, man, were they so, you know, that was so bad. was that were Were they so wrong? And they were. they that that That was a mistake. But they didn't have the knowledge that we have today of management of timber.
00:36:17
Speaker
So, you know, we we do have a lot of timber on the stump, as we call it here. We have a lot of timber growing in the southeast right now. um yeah It's ripe for new products and it's ripe for new and industry to come into the area.
00:36:33
Speaker
Well, so that's going to be my next question to you then is I love that you painted that contrast with the the way that things were going, you know hundreds of years ago. Well, what's now, bri can you now paint a picture of what's happening today Specifically, just what is the topic of the genetics
Advancements in Tree Genetics
00:36:53
Speaker
that you've brought up? And what does modern technology, as you even called it, with genetics, what does that allow us to do? What is it?
00:37:00
Speaker
And what does it allow us to do that's now different? And is it better now than it was then? Can you please, big topic, go ahead and take that for us. The answer to your question, is it better now than it was then, is ah is a resounding yes.
00:37:15
Speaker
So let let me go back into the beginning of that and and and, you know, where we're going today and how we're going to mitigate or remediate that oh no the issue of the wood.
00:37:28
Speaker
We've got genetics has come so far and the technology has come so far that we have trees now that are growing straighter.
00:37:40
Speaker
They are growing stronger. They are growing larger. They have smaller crowns, smaller limbs, so you have less waste. And that has all been through natural selection or selective crossing of these families.
00:37:54
Speaker
And it is, um you're looking at, um you know, final harvest were back at the beginning when they would farm have a final harvest, you may get 20% of the stand that is is able to be used for solid wood products, lumber, saw timber, because the genetics just wasn't there.
00:38:15
Speaker
And you would have few individuals. Now we're planting seedlings and developing stands that are producing 80 to 100% saw
00:38:27
Speaker
Whoa. And it's producing less pulpwood. So the landowner now has the option with his management objectives and plan to go in and say, okay, we have a high growth to drain ratio.
00:38:44
Speaker
We have a very skewed growth to drain ratio. what is i What can I as a landowner do to help the situation we're in? And it's a resounding, it's a really simple solution.
00:38:59
Speaker
You plant fewer trees per acre. You plant a better genetic. So those fewer trees per acre that you're planting, you're assured that 80 to 100% of those are going to grow into salt timber or a solid wood product, lumber.
00:39:17
Speaker
And You're planting fewer trees per acre, so thus you are helping manage not only the timber, but you're also helping manage for wildlife because you're allowing more sunlight to get to the forest floor to grow more of the plants that the wildlife needs to survive.
00:39:34
Speaker
You're planting fewer trees per acre, or so each tree is having is is able it has its has the availability to more resources from the soil because there's only so many nutrients in the soil and there's only so much moisture in the soil.
00:39:50
Speaker
So if you plant too many trees per acre, each individual tree has less of those nutrients to use. Whereas if you plant fewer trees per acre and you plant a better genetic,
00:40:02
Speaker
You're increasing that individual tree's availability to those nutrients and that moisture that it can, thus keeping it healthier, thus keeping the environmental healthier because a healthy tree is sequestering more carbon, because it's growing more, it's pulling more carbon out of the atmosphere.
00:40:20
Speaker
Thus, you're helping the environment by helping the wildlife. with creating the habitat that they need to survive. Because the number one cause for the declining in wildlife species, the number one cause for that is loss of habitat.
00:40:34
Speaker
You're creating habitat to help that. And then you're creating a product two that is going to go into a long-term use product like lumber as compared to a short-term use product like pulpwood, like that's used in paper,
00:40:51
Speaker
interior of the fluff pulp and diapers and stuff like that. So that's how we're fixing that problem. And that's why it's called technology. We are, the technology is developing and it's evolving to help meet the demand of the economy of today and also help with the environment. And it's also helping level out that growth to drain ratio.
00:41:17
Speaker
Now, like I said back at the beginning of the discussion, timber is a long term crop.
00:41:29
Speaker
So it's a long rotation. That's why it's taking so long to even that balance. Whereas in agricultural crops, that balance moves quickly. And in timber, it's very gradual.
00:41:44
Speaker
Paul? You know what? I just want to know as much as you can share comfortably publicly, what does it mean genetically? ah You're doing things with the genetics of the trees. Like um I'm envisioning you or guys with microscopes looking at something and these different things. Like are there microscopes involved?
00:42:04
Speaker
What is it actually that you're doing? how How much can you get into the weeds of this? But like, what does that mean? Technology, genetics, trees, like There's people. Okay. So like the, the fascinating thing to me, Paul is this isn't just happening random.
00:42:18
Speaker
It isn't just like somebody's throwing some seed out there and that makes sense because, well, it's, you gotta be intentional with it. I think that's the word that comes to mind is what anything you're describing is you're so intentional.
00:42:31
Speaker
And Paul, you have a fricking PhD talking about the genetics of trees. Like what? Like we've got people like yourself who deep in the, knowledge and of the trees of the growth of the environment, all these different things.
00:42:48
Speaker
And I believe with that level of education, like, and and you're saying these things, it's incredible, right? Like there's so many naysayers out there that feel like they just emotionally are charged or attack our industry. But come on, people will like listen to somebody like Paul, who's out there doing it every single day, seeing the results from before.
00:43:10
Speaker
What's happening today? Preparing for the future. And like, I'm bringing that word back, the intentionality. You're so intentional with what you're describing. It blows my mind. So if you can take us into the, what is that?
00:43:23
Speaker
The genetics that you're describing. what's What's the process? What's the behind the scenes? Give us a little glimpse. What does that mean? So the genetic improvement in timber and pine started back in the nineteen fifty s And it started at universities and they developed co-ops.
00:43:45
Speaker
Now the co-op co-ops were made up of universities and industry. these guys came together and they said, look, we're not able to produce the products with the current trees that we have now, like we want to produce them.
00:44:00
Speaker
Let's go out and let's find pretty trees, quote unquote pretty trees. So in the 1950s, they started looking for for individuals that stood out to them that had characteristics of straight stems, small crowns, small limbs, less disease.
00:44:19
Speaker
And they started collecting material from this and they started growing it in what we call orchards. And then they would start and they would grow those orchards and then they would reevaluate them and they would take out the ones that did not look as well or did not have the characteristics that they needed.
00:44:33
Speaker
And then they would propagate or grow the ah the genetics that did have those traits. Okay, so the first product that came out was called open pollinated.
00:44:45
Speaker
And open pollinated are just basically an orchard of trees that have superior traits that are pollinated naturally by the wind when the pollen is released by the male captains and it flies and it lands on the flower of the pine tree and it fertilizes the ovule and you get the seed out of it.
00:45:02
Speaker
Okay, nothing nothing too high tech about it other than, you know, you're testing to see if they've got the the traits that you want.
00:45:11
Speaker
Then we went on and said, okay, they're doing this in other agricultural ah other agriculture where they are taking and using selected crosses. right This is not um genetic modification.
00:45:27
Speaker
This is not GMO. This is the same thing that happens in Corn, the same thing that happens in ah cattle, the same thing that happens in other agricultural crops where you're taking two individuals and you're saying, I want to cross this individual with this individual and let's see what that looks like.
00:45:51
Speaker
So then it come into what we call mass control pollinating, where we're basically just pollinating the flowers ourselves. And we'll put a bag over the over ah a limb in our orchard and we'll protect those flowers from natural pollination.
00:46:06
Speaker
And then we will go in and we will take a selected pollen and we will cross pollinate that flower. And just because you do that, it doesn't guarantee that you're going to get a good end product because they may not be compatible.
00:46:19
Speaker
You know, I've always used the analogy. It's like an NFL running back marries a gold medal winning track star and they have a child.
00:46:31
Speaker
That child more than likely is going to be an athlete because it's getting the genetic traits from the father. It's getting the genetic traits from the mother.
00:46:43
Speaker
And when they combine, you get a better growing tree.
00:46:49
Speaker
It's just like Vadim, you're a genetic combination of your mother and father. I'm a genetic combination of my mother and father. I have some traits from my mother. i have some traits from my father.
00:47:02
Speaker
And you can look in the mirror and you can see those traits. You know, I look in the mirror every day. My father had passed away in 2020. But as I get older, I look in the mirror and I see my father because I have characteristics that were from him.
00:47:18
Speaker
Same thing takes place in Timber. you When you grow, when you pollinate a tree yeah and you plant it, it's going to have the characteristic traits from its parents, wherever that came from.
00:47:35
Speaker
So you've got you've got traits that you're wanting to pass on to the next generation, and those traits are being passed on.
00:47:44
Speaker
Wow. Like, I just thought trees grow. Yeah. And then you're telling me all of this, which makes a lot of sense logically. Yeah.
00:47:54
Speaker
Dang, man. So it's, again, very intentional. And it's all natural. I mean, it's 100% natural. I mean, the the there's there's nothing unnatural about it.
00:48:05
Speaker
It's just crossing two parents. And it's just like they do in cattle. yeah i When the cattle farmer and he has his herd of ah heifers and then he takes a select bull and puts in the pasture with them because he wants his calves to have the genetic characteristics of those mothers and of the bull.
00:48:29
Speaker
It's the same thing.
00:48:32
Speaker
Okay, so keep going with ah with the, you were describing the technical process. You put these bags over flowers. You collected the pollen. you've and You've somehow connected those. Now happens?
00:48:45
Speaker
Okay. So you collect the pollen from the male catkins. We, in the spring, before the flowers open, we put a bag over the the stem with the flowers on it. In each bag is somewhere between two to 12 flowers.
00:48:59
Speaker
Okay. So that flower is not always receptive. She's got to start growth and the flowers look just like miniature pine cones. or They're, they're, Pretty cool.
00:49:11
Speaker
But they, the flower becomes, it's open and becomes receptive for pollen. Well, you've got to have that bag over it so the outside pollen doesn't come in. And she's shielded.
00:49:23
Speaker
yeah Within that two-week window, somebody has to visit that bag with a canister of pollen from a known male in a bucket lift. And they puncture the bag and they send the pollen in on the flower. They just spray the pollen on the flower.
00:49:39
Speaker
So you've pollinated the flower. Well, each one of those bags has to be visited two times, usually twice within a two week window, because at the end of that, she's only receptive for a small amount of time and she closes up.
00:49:55
Speaker
yeah She's not receptive anymore. So she's got to be pollinated in that time. Well, for that first calendar year, after she's treated with the pollen, she just sits there. The flower does nothing.
00:50:08
Speaker
And then the next spring after that, the pollen tube starts to grow, fertilizes the ovule, and the cone starts to form, which is where the seeds are enclosed in. Yeah.
00:50:19
Speaker
Those seed are the genetic, in in each seed, you have the DNA from the mother, you have the DNA from the father. Okay. So when those seed grow,
00:50:31
Speaker
Then we go back and we collect that cone. Now, people ask us all the time, how can you guarantee that that that that cone you collected was pollinated with that male? Well, we keep and I am thankful I do not keep up with this data.
00:50:46
Speaker
But ain we keep enormous data records of what family this tree is, what family it was pollinated with. and there is a tag on each limb, each branch, with those flowers, there is a tag that denotes that cross.
00:51:03
Speaker
That tag, just like the chain of custody for an investigator who is investigating a crime, when he collects his evidence and puts it in a bag, he has to sign a chain of custody.
00:51:15
Speaker
Well, this is the same thing here. When you collect those cones, that tag and that chain of custody has to be documented. so that we are over 95% sure that that tree, that seed contains that combination of those two parents.
00:51:34
Speaker
So when you call me up and you say, I want AGM 37, I can guarantee you within 95% certainty that the seedlings you are getting are that cross, that family.
00:51:50
Speaker
And Vadim, on top of that, I can guarantee you that those seedlings that are out there are full siblings. Just like we have siblings and some of us have half siblings.
00:52:03
Speaker
Some of us have full siblings. Those trees are full siblings. They have the same mother. They have the same father. okay so Okay, go ahead.
00:52:13
Speaker
Hold up. Okay. Bring me back to the comb. Because i um i want I want to understand the whole process. So bring me back to the cone. We'll get back to the siblings in minute. So when the cone. took the cone. Okay. When I see a cone, we see pine cones and fir cones, which there is a
Natural Seed Dispersal and Stratification
00:52:28
Speaker
difference, right?
00:52:28
Speaker
Yes. We see cones on the floor in the park or when you go to the forest. Right. What are you seeing on the floor? Is there anything alive in there still? That's usually just, that's the carcass, isn't it? That's old flower.
00:52:40
Speaker
that's the old that's the old ah flower is what that is. that's The cone is the old flower. And she has already opened up and the seeds have been dispersed.
00:52:51
Speaker
With the little helicopter beetles, right? What's all that the little The little wing that is on the seed, you have two different types of seed. You have seed that are, what you will want for pine, you have wind dispersed seeds. So the little the little wing that's on it is on there so that when it is dispersed from the cone, it catches it catches wind, yeah it catches the wind flow, and it will fly on the wind and it can disperse them over longer distances.
00:53:22
Speaker
Unlike an acorn from an oak tree and, you know, they just drop straight down. So, you know, for a pine tree, it has a little wing and that's what's, you know, interesting about that is it will fly for long distances.
00:53:36
Speaker
So what you're seeing on the ground is the cone. How does it decide to start flying? What's the mechanics there? Do you know? When the cone opens up, Yeah. And it's not. to this stage When it gets to the stage in life that it has the growth inside of it has stopped.
00:53:52
Speaker
The nutrients coming from the plant, from the tree, has stopped, has has stopped going in and feeding the cone with the nutrients that it needs to grow and the seeds to to ah develop.
00:54:03
Speaker
When that all stops, the cone basically dies. And then when it does, it pops open. What causes it to pop open? Is it heat or mechanics? or little natural Natural environment. natural I mean, a lot of different facets.
00:54:22
Speaker
it' It's, hit you know, individual, environmental, a lot of different things. So naturally it'll pop open and they start flying away. You can't let the flying away and get all of them mixed up because you're tracking all the data, right? so what happens why week collect That's why we collect the cones before they pop open.
00:54:41
Speaker
Genius. Okay. Okay. Now you've got. When when when the cone, you asked me if what causes it to pop open. When it naturally dries down, it will open and release its seed. When it when that when that ah when the nutrients and the the when is when the nutrients in the moisture stops from the plant and it dries down, it will pop open.
00:55:01
Speaker
We collect them before they open. Keep them, with you may you know, I mentioned the chain of custody, keep them all together. We dry them ourselves, which causes them to pop open, and then we extract the seed.
00:55:13
Speaker
Okay, cool. So now you've got a seed that doesn't need to fly nowhere, but it's got a wing, just like the the the ones in the in the nature. Then what? Then you start planting them? and Then they go into they go into a process of storage where we can store them, sometimes store them for longer periods of time.
00:55:31
Speaker
And when it comes time to plant our nurseries to produce the seedlings that are going to eventually be sold to the consumer to be planted on their property. They're sent the seed or sent to our nurseries.
00:55:45
Speaker
They're planted and end of they're planted in rows where this block of seedlings are all the same family. This block of seedlings are all the same family. and they keep And they keep very, very detailed records of what seedlings are planted were, which families planted were.
00:56:01
Speaker
And then they're grown. That's like, you know, I was talking about the mass control pollinated seedlings. It takes three years, Vadim. It takes three years from the time that seed, that pollen is introduced into the bag before it that seedling is sold to the consumer.
00:56:18
Speaker
Dang, man. And but there's also a process in early spring where the seed that is going to be used to be planted in the nursery, it has to go through a process called stratification, which we is as a process that basically weakens the seed coat so you get better germination.
00:56:38
Speaker
What heck does that mean? What did you just say? but Half the geneticists speak right there. So you go through a process called stratification and and it it happens naturally in nature.
00:56:51
Speaker
And it's usually it usually happens with um it oh cold storage. But there's a lot of different ways just try to stratify seed. But basically, you know, a seed, they the different parts of a seed, you have the seed coat and then you have the embryo that's inside.
00:57:07
Speaker
Well, the seed coat is just a hard outer layer. And if sometimes the seed coats can be so hard that the little embryo inside has trouble breaking out.
00:57:18
Speaker
So you put it through a process called stratification that weakens that seed coat so that the little embryo can start its root growth and then it can start its shoot growth. Paul, I heard this somewhere.
00:57:31
Speaker
Maybe you could educate me, but like, On that topic, somebody said somewhere that like sometimes fire in the nature is what causes things to start growing. it Is that true? And how does that relate to what we're talking about here?
00:57:45
Speaker
Yes. There are certain species of pines, not loblolly, but there are certain species of pines that that cone does not open naturally. Okay.
00:57:56
Speaker
It stays closed because it has a high resin content in it. So it's resin holds it's closed. The only way to get those seed, those cones to open is with the app or usage of fire.
00:58:11
Speaker
but Because the fire, the heat has to melt that rosin content that is in that tone in order for it to open. Because it's just like glue. the the The resin that's inside the cone is holding it together.
00:58:25
Speaker
And until it gets fire, it's not going to open because until that resin is heated and melted, it can't open. So, you know, that's another topic like at the beginning of the podcast, we could talk about, we can spend days talking about prescribed burning and the usage of fire in our natural forest.
00:58:44
Speaker
And it's a tool that is used under management. let's Let's hold off on the firetop. Let's hold off. that's Back to the seed. Okay, so now you were explaining to me stratification.
00:58:58
Speaker
um That was where you were helping the embryo inside start growing. Right. Well, what when you're doing this in the nursery or in in the field, it does it naturally.
00:59:11
Speaker
What actually kickstarts the growth of the new seedling? Like, what the heck? Like, you've got this thing. that just drops into the soil or there's probably a more methodical way that you can explain this, but you need to water And then it' just like, it's got, it's ah got a program that it kicks off and it just like does its thing. like how does it happen?
00:59:31
Speaker
This mother nature. I mean, that that's, that's just in the way it was, you know, when the seed gets the moisture and the soil temperature, it gets, gets to the right temp, the seed will, the embryo inside will start growing.
00:59:46
Speaker
You will get start getting cell division. The cells will start dividing and then, and just like with, with cell division and just like in, in, in anything else that grows, the cells start multiplying. And when it gets so big, it pops the seed coat.
01:00:02
Speaker
And then it's just, you know, it's like any other, any other um um individual, then you start having the root develop and the shoot to develop. So it's just nature.
01:00:14
Speaker
Jeez, man. Okay. So, but is it like, gotta like really, i can't do it in my backyard or or can i like how and critical are the conditions and how specialized in the process that.
01:00:27
Speaker
It's just like, it's just like planting a garden in your backyard. but you know where you You can't plant your garden in the dead of winter and expect it to grow because the conditions are not right.
01:00:38
Speaker
The soil temperature is too low. There's too much. There's not a, you know, it's too cold outside. The seed is just going to sit there. It's not going to grow. So when the temperature gets right and when the the high enough and the soil temperature gets high enough and the moisture is there, it's like start.
01:00:57
Speaker
That's the kickstart. It just kickstarts. Dang, man. Okay. Okay. And then, so from that moment when you planted in the nursery to seedling delivered to customer, I mean, can you describe a little bit about like seedling? Is it little guy? Is it like, how tall is it? What's it look like? What's, what's the perfect seedling that can survive on its own out in the wild?
01:01:19
Speaker
And what's the, so can you describe what gets, what's the actual product that you sell? That's the seedling you call it. Describe it and then take me back to how you get that result. from these seeds you're talking telling me about. So two parts. So the perfect size seedling is what we had called a grade one seedling.
01:01:38
Speaker
And a grade one seedling has a two to one shoot to root ratio. Now, what that means is a two to one ratio is the top part of the, or the shoot of the stem.
01:01:52
Speaker
What is above ground is two times as long as what's below ground. Okay, average seedling is somewhere around, you know, 12 inches tall. And your ground line diameter is about four to five millimeters.
01:02:10
Speaker
Now, how we get that is we have some very good nursery managers who are nothing but, I mean, they are just great growers. And they know when to apply nutrients to the sick to the nursery bed.
01:02:23
Speaker
They know when the seedlings are lacking this nutrient or they need more of it. They know when the seedlings need to be watered. They nurture the seedlings all through the growing season because it's just ah it's it's like an agricultural crop.
01:02:36
Speaker
And then at the end of the growing season, when the temperatures start dropping and it starts going, and we start like we're transitioning right now, we're in fall, fixing to go into winter, and the temperatures start dropping, daylight starts, you know the days are shorter, the trees start going into what we call dormancy.
01:02:52
Speaker
But back to your question about what the perfect seedling looks like. It has usually it has one one straight, one main tap root, and then it has so many first order lateral roots. So you want to look at those roots, make sure there's plenty of what we call fibrous roots or hairy roots on it. They look like little hairs.
01:03:12
Speaker
The shoot typically is ah twice as long as that root section. It has a lot of it has lion you know it has this little limbs and it is obviously has obviously a a really dark green color.
01:03:26
Speaker
And is, so I don't know any other way to explain this other than saying it has a very strong pine smell. I mean, you can just smell them and they they smell like pine trees.
01:03:40
Speaker
ah That's that's ah perfect je a perfect seedling. Why do they smell the way they smell? what The resin that's inside. It sounds smells like what I used to when I was a kid. I called it pine sap.
01:03:52
Speaker
The resin that's inside that is you that that is basically the they the blood of the seedling?
01:04:00
Speaker
Man, there's so many follow-up questions here. I know this is like this is like super... you would say It's like trees. It's like basic, you would say. but There's so much depth there. It took, Vadim, it takes four years to become a forester. And then I went on in master's and then PhD.
01:04:17
Speaker
And we are trying to do a podcast for about an hour and a half. And there's so much information and so many rabbit holes we could go down. I mean, we could do a podcast just about prescribed fire.
01:04:29
Speaker
We could do a podcast just about ah machine planting versus hand planting. We could do a podcast. There's so many of them. But, you know, it is is that's what's great about forestry.
01:04:40
Speaker
And that's what's great about my my job. And that's what's great about, you know, my career. Paul, is it true that trees can talk to each other? Yes. Well...
01:04:52
Speaker
What does it feel like? Let me, let me preface that with there's no, it's not like you and I are talking right now. ah hu Okay. So, you know, trees can sense from their, from the tree adjacent to them when there is stress, when they are being stressed.
01:05:15
Speaker
So, Getting into another topic, let's just let's let's use it as an example, Southern Pine Beetle, which is a beetle that attacks trees in the southeast and it's very detrimental. It's it's it's very it's so it's ah it's a major issue and it's happening right now because we have trees that are, ah we have we've been through two two years of drought and we have trees that are stressed.
Tree Defense Mechanisms and Communication
01:05:41
Speaker
So, you know, when a tree, when an individual tree um is attacked by a southern pine beetle, by the female, and she starts burrowing in, that tree starts putting on a defense to to basically defend off the attack of that southern pine beetle.
01:05:59
Speaker
And it's what we call pitch, pitching it out. Well, the pine tree uses the resin that's inside to pitch the, you know, southern pine beetle out.
01:06:11
Speaker
Well, if the tree doesn't have enough resin to take to do that, then it can't fight off the attack of the southern pine beetle. It has been documented that trees around around that individual that is has come under attack will sense the attack and will automatically start trying to produce more resin.
01:06:31
Speaker
Whoa. But how do they know? How does one tell the other, like on a walkie-talkie or something? um as you you that you You answer that, I i i don't know.
01:06:44
Speaker
Wow, man. but it's But it's like, it's observable that that's happened. Right. I mean, it's observable. This one tree over here, this one individual in the center is being attacked by a southern pine beetle.
01:06:59
Speaker
And then you notice an increase in resin production by the individuals around it. So there has been some type of for lack of a better word, communication there that has caused those individuals around it to realize, Hey, man, the battle stations, I've got to get ready for a fight because the attack is coming.
01:07:26
Speaker
Okay. Well, hold up. Let's not go into fire. Let's not continue down the path of resisting like all these different diseases that can happen. Um, Just to finish the train of thought, we got all the way to seedlings ready to go.
01:07:39
Speaker
What happens to bring, sorry, I went on a tangent and that's really interesting for you. I really enjoy that. But to bring our audience back to seedlings. So seedlings, once they reach that that size, once they reach that that that seedling size at the end of the first growing season when they're planted in the nursery,
01:08:00
Speaker
Then they when they start um when the temperatures start dropping, we we have what's called chilling hours. And a chilling hour is basically when the temperature has been like below a set i say it point manner a set point, and it's usually somewhere around 45 degrees.
01:08:19
Speaker
But the trees start going into what we call dormancy. and they are sensing, okay, it's time to go into dormancy, the growing season's over, we're not going to be growing during the wintertime. So basically they're going into their hibernation stage.
01:08:32
Speaker
i That is the best time to take the seedling out of the nursery bed, transport it and plant it in what I call its final resting place. So it's actually, but in this sense, it's the beginning of its life, but it's where it's going to be until it's harvested.
01:08:48
Speaker
So you we our nursery managers then start lifting the seedlings. They start ah taking the seedlings out, processing them, packaging them in bags. That is, at each each package is has the note of and is is identified by the family the of that tree.
01:09:08
Speaker
You know, what family is that or what genetic is that that's going in that bag. They are put in cold storage and coolers that we have our nurseries. And then they are loaded on the trucks that have refrigerated trailers that keep that temperature low.
01:09:23
Speaker
And then they're transported to the to the consumer to where they're going to be planted. Then they go into the process of planting where they're planted into their final resting place where at the beginning of the next growing season, when the temperature starts coming back up, days start getting longer,
01:09:42
Speaker
the The environment starts getting, the the the climate starts getting conducive with vegetative growth. Then they, just like you see in the spring, the sap will start rising out of the roots.
01:09:55
Speaker
the the the shoot the The shoot will come back out of hibernation and you will start seeing bud growth. And when you're seeing bud growth, that means you have root growth below soil.
01:10:08
Speaker
And I want to go talk about the tree going up and I want to go talk about the roots going down. right Right. Okay. So what another basic question here for you, I mean, what's required to fundamentally grow? Like you're talking about now it's coming, it's coming out of hibernation.
01:10:24
Speaker
It's now in its final resting place. Shoot. Well, I guess I skipped over how do you determine final resting place? And maybe you can start with that. And then what causes them to now grow and take final form?
01:10:36
Speaker
So you're not going to take a tree, talking about determining where it's going to be planted, you're not going to take a tree that, you know, even though we're the southeastern United States, there are different climates within the southeastern United States.
01:10:49
Speaker
ah ah So you have, oh in my area, i deal I deal with, and those are called regions. And in my area, I deal with the coastal regions.
01:11:01
Speaker
which is basically Interstate 20, midway down through Alabama and Mississippi. South is the coastal. And everything above that is the, what we call Piedmont region.
01:11:16
Speaker
All right. So it's not. one case said What's that? What did you call it? That's a Piedmont. Piedmont. That's P-A-G-M-O-N-T.
01:11:28
Speaker
P-I-E-D. oh yeah yeah e and but wait Okay. and so, you know, you're not going to take a tree or a family that is oh from the Piedmont and transport it to the south, to the coastal, and expect it to grow well.
01:11:48
Speaker
Oh, okay. Because the genetics, you know, you've got, you've got trees, you've got, you have families that grow well in the Piedmont that are are adapted to their soil characteristics and to their climates.
01:12:02
Speaker
And you have families that are more adapted to the coastal region and their soil characteristics and their climates. And it it all basically, the majority of it comes back to minimum winter temperature.
01:12:14
Speaker
The families that are in the south or on the coastal region, and are not adapted to the colder temperatures of say North Alabama, North Mississippi.
01:12:26
Speaker
And likewise, trees that are from North or from the Piedmont, they're not adapted to the climate of the of the coastal region. And that all goes back into natural selection back, you know, ever how far you go back to where, you know, the the genetics, the individuals,
01:12:49
Speaker
survived in the north that could handle the cold and the individuals survived in the south that that could handle their time their climates so just because you have a good family for the coastal region doesn't mean it's going to be a great family for the piedmont and vice versa and that's where i come in working with landowners also um so when a landowner calls me up and he tells me he or she tells me i want to grow a tree or i want to plant a tree that's going to produce this much this much ah ah hard so solid wood product, saw timber, I want it to do this, pick me a family that is going to grow on my area.
01:13:30
Speaker
And it's not, I can't just go out and just say, okay, just give me that tree because it's going to grow there. No, you can't do that because that family may not be from that region and may not grow well in that region.
01:13:43
Speaker
That's why we have our our trial areas. We have over 800 ah You know, we have trials planted across the southeastern United States where we plant these families in trials before we release them for production to go out to the consumer.
01:14:01
Speaker
We have to test them to make sure they're going to perform. That's incredible. So we have over 800 trials across the southeastern United States where we have these three different families planted.
01:14:15
Speaker
And we can go down through and say, OK, this family is a great performer in the coastal, but it's not doing anything in the Piedmont. Or we tried this cross, crossing this mother and father.
01:14:28
Speaker
And even though they're both great parents, their offspring is not doing that well.
01:14:35
Speaker
I got you. Then we can we can determine then that's where I come in and like working with a private landowner, I can say, okay, here's a list of the families that will grow well on your ti on your property in your area.
01:14:49
Speaker
And here we have a score system called PRS, which is performance rating system. And I can give that PRS to the landowner and the landowner can look at it and say, right, or I can hand it to the landowner and say, this is how your trees are going to perform on your property.
01:15:12
Speaker
And that's where your expertise comes in, again, directly while you need to be on site. And like you werere explaining, that's your kind of day to day. You do this. as a service to be able to educate people and then they make the final selection. That makes sense to me.
01:15:25
Speaker
Exactly. Can we wrap? and yeah I have a lot more questions because this is trees. This is the Woodworld podcast. I mean this is what the people want to hear, right? Right. It's really upstream where everything starts. So I'm fascinated, Paul.
01:15:40
Speaker
I guess to finish the conversation about you you you took me to the seeds through the seedling. Now the tree's planted in the right spot, which is that's your expertise. Love that. And then, hey, I mean, what are the basics for a tree to grow to maturity?
01:15:57
Speaker
You know, that's a million dollar question that has got a lot of inputs because you have environmental factors ah that come into play, you know.
01:16:10
Speaker
What it takes for a tree to grow to maturity is it takes ample nutrition, ample nutrients, just like you and I do, ah just like our children does, ah nick has those needs.
01:16:21
Speaker
They need ample moisture. They need time to grow. They need room to grow. You've got to give a tree enough room so that it can grow, because if you plant too many trees per acre and they're just really thick,
01:16:37
Speaker
They don't have enough room to grow, even though they have the genetic capability of being a superior tree. If you don't give them the room to grow, they're not going to be able to express. Those genetics are not going to be able to express themselves.
01:16:52
Speaker
So they're not going to come out. You know, i just wanted to make sure I understand the list. You said you need nutrients. Right. You need moisture.
01:17:03
Speaker
Right. I assume you need. You said environmental, so environmental probably means sunlight. Sunlight. So you got nutrients, you got moisture, you got sunlight.
01:17:16
Speaker
What else? And room to grow. Room to grow. ah I mean.
01:17:27
Speaker
How does that come together and get you like a full size, beautiful tree? I mean, and, and, and don't, I, I would say like, we really probably should do a follow-up podcast, but give me a little bit, give me a little taste of how does the tree take all that and, and grow into something beautiful, majestic, and then,
01:17:48
Speaker
Productive, man. but a that that's ah That's a million dollar question that you could spend a ah long time explaining. It's the way God intended it and it's the way he created it.
01:18:00
Speaker
Isn't that just incredible? It is incredible. It is amazing. And you see why I'm so passionate about it and why I love them. I love trees and nature so much.
01:18:12
Speaker
It's because it in in it's not just it's not just I love pine trees and it's not just I love hardwoods. It's not. It's all of it. It's it's the whole process.
01:18:23
Speaker
You know, I've um as I've stated before when God created the earth, he created it perfect. And even God himself said in the book of Genesis.
01:18:34
Speaker
It is good. Yeah. It is good. He saw that it was good. He created it. It is good. And he said that. And for God to say that it is good, it's great to us.
01:18:50
Speaker
I absolutely agree. and wood is good, right? You meant you touched on the bro Wood is incredible. To me, there's nothing no more beautiful than the wood grain in lumber and using that. I mean, the interior of my house, you know, most people have painted walls like the wall behind you, like the wall is behind.
01:19:15
Speaker
The interior of my house is lumber from Barge Timberlands in Worksville, Mississippi. And it's just lumber. it's it's It hasn't been painted. It hasn't been stained.
01:19:26
Speaker
It's just lumber. because And I sat there at times in my recliner and I just look at it in amazement of, that grew. And all of those grains that you see, which are growth rings, all you see in that is a moment in time when that tree was growing.
01:19:47
Speaker
And it was getting what it needed and it was producing the what it was producing. It was growing into something. And it's nature. It's natural. You know, there's been studies that people feel better when they're around nature.
01:20:01
Speaker
People's attitudes and personalities improve when they're in nature. Because it is it is all of us. We are, it's it's ever you know it's it's all around us and it impacts us so much.
01:20:22
Speaker
I'm just. So you see why I do. you you you You said you wanted me to tell why I do what I do. Yeah. You just see it. I mean, 23 million acres in state of Alabama is timberland. 93% of that is owned like ah by people like you and I. That is, that's a legacy.
01:20:48
Speaker
You're leaving a legacy. A landowner is leaving legacy and it's like a painting. You can paint your portrait the way you want to paint it. And when you're gone,
01:20:59
Speaker
That portrait is going to remain.
01:21:03
Speaker
And people are going to look at that and they're going to either say, man, he should have done this she should have done that. Or the descendants, the grandchildren, the great-grandchildren are going to look at it and go, man, grandmother and grandfather painted a beautiful portrait.
01:21:22
Speaker
And now look what we've got.
01:21:28
Speaker
And they're going to be remembered by that. Everybody wants to be remembered. But, Damien, you want to be remembered for what you did with your life at the end of it because that's your legacy.
01:21:40
Speaker
For timberland owners, that's our legacy.
01:21:45
Speaker
Yeah, which means you absolutely want to do the best for the land, which is optimal for both conservation, being productive with the creating the resources that we need,
01:21:58
Speaker
the wildlife that you mentioned. So all of that comes into play. You're not just trying to mow down everything and take a buck. It really No, never. But more with the legacy you're speaking about.
01:22:09
Speaker
And I think that, well, to wrap, give us your, what would you want maybe,
01:22:20
Speaker
There's two groups of people listening, right? The people who already understand this topic and they're really in tune with us and there's people who don't. But if you were to just give us this, your closing statement, your your call to action to us, Paul, what do you want people to walk away from this conversation and and really think about or think on or have a new approach, a new mindset?
Forestry as Long-Term Investment Planning
01:22:42
Speaker
What would you encourage people to to know, to to want to walk away from here with? we have some We have some timber markets now that are not ah the best they can be for timber products.
01:22:59
Speaker
That's true. But markets are dynamic. They're always changing. Technology is always evolving. There's going to be new products that come out.
01:23:13
Speaker
Just because you're planting a seedling today doesn't mean it's going to be harvested in the markets of today. but because it's got to grow for 25 to 30 years. And I can guarantee you those markets are going to be different than the markets they are today.
01:23:28
Speaker
So at the end of the day, in your plan and in your objectives, you can't plan for today. You've got to plan for tomorrow. And you've got to plan for the next market because you're planting ah an individual plant that is like a share of stock.
01:23:47
Speaker
And it's got to grow just like that share of stock has got to grow. And you're buying that stock because of not what it's worth today, but what of what you want it to be worth tomorrow.
01:24:01
Speaker
And Einstein's definition, I use this i use this phrase a lot. ah one Einstein's definition yeah of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
01:24:15
Speaker
Warren Buffett had a saying that he, and I quote Warren Buffett, price is what you pay, value is what you get.
01:24:24
Speaker
Price is what you pay. I think both of those individuals were successful and very smart people, are very smart people. So with those two ideologies, you've got to plan for tomorrow.
01:24:42
Speaker
And your management plan, if it has anything in it that I want to produce solid wood products, I want to manage my timber for an economic return, plus I want to manage for wildlife habitat and everything else, you have got to look at what is available. And price is what you pay, value is what you get.
01:25:05
Speaker
So when you decide, and listen, but a if if you don't hear anything else I say today,
01:25:15
Speaker
The wrong decision today in timber is going to follow you for the next 30 years.
01:25:23
Speaker
So if you make the wrong decision today and you plant something that is not going to meet your management objectives or you decide to take whatever is available, 30 years from now, you're still going to be regretting that decision.
01:25:44
Speaker
If you do it right today, 30 years from now, if you're here or if you're not, your decision is going to be your right decision or wrong decision is going to be evident.
01:26:01
Speaker
So I go back to that painting your portrait.
01:26:07
Speaker
When you're painting that portrait and you're sitting there and you're going, I want my descendants to look up and say, I made the right decision. Or do you want them to look up and say he took the cheap way out?
01:26:23
Speaker
Wow, Paul, thank you for that closing statement. And then also just, ladies ladies ladies and gentlemen, if you're paid attention to this far, you can absolutely see how this this wood world, it goes deep.
01:26:38
Speaker
And you talk to somebody, whether... in a sawmill that prepares saws, or you talk to somebody like Paul, who, you know, is all about the genetics of trees. There's so much depth.
01:26:49
Speaker
And what we heard today from you, Paul, is incredible. I love the fact that I guess what I'm hearing to summarize is it's so intentional. It really, like you just summarize at the end, you've got to make the right decisions and you've got to be intentional.
01:27:07
Speaker
And that's what I love about our industry. And I'm encouraging our industry to step forward and be more transparent rather than less transparent to educate, yes, ourselves who are in the industry, but also the folks that are outside the industry. It's so helpful to hear somebody may absolutely not be wanting to buy seedlings, but if they understand how intentional, Paul, you take your job and the landowners, what they're doing and how on purpose things are, it's not just cutting trees down and planting something back. And it's not just for a check mark.
01:27:40
Speaker
Wow. This is, it's powerful. So I really enjoyed our episode, Paul. I also want to remember one thing you mentioned is what, one thing that you mentioned when we were together, you mentioned to come out,
01:27:53
Speaker
when you're going to be doing that two week window with all the bags and the flowers and all that, I'd love to take you up on that and do like an onsite vlog. We'll coordinate all that. Yes, man. and I, this has been fascinating just to get information, but eventually I want to follow you around, see the, see the trees themselves, see the combs, talk onsite somewhere. and And I would like to say, if any of your listeners would like to contact me or would like more information there, please go to our website, www.arborgen.com.
01:28:23
Speaker
Yes. and they can find my contact information on there. They can or if they're in a different area, they can find my colleagues contact information on that as well.
01:28:34
Speaker
We also send out a a twice a month, a tree lines newsletter, which is it contains ah information about planting season, seedlings, all sorts of educational information.
01:28:48
Speaker
They can sign up for that on the website ah and just take a look at it. And if you have any questions, contact me. Thank you so much, Paul. Thank you much.
01:28:59
Speaker
It's been a very informative conversation. I look forward to spending some time with you in the future as well. but that ain't what With that, we're going to sign off and thank you so much for staying tuned and listening to what Paul Jeffries has to say about seedlings, genetics, trees, growth.
01:29:17
Speaker
on the Woodworld podcast, your host today, myself, my name is Vadim Kovalev, and the podcast is brought to you by our company called Kovalev. So stay tuned for the next episode.
01:29:28
Speaker
Thanks for staying with us and enjoy what's coming.