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Character Driven Mystery with Trixie Silvertale
190 Plays1 year ago
USA Today best selling author Trixie Silvertale joins Brook and Sarah to discuss what makes a mystery character driven and why mystery fans tend to prefer mysteries that focus on character. The conversation does include spoilers for Glass Onion (2022).
Discussed
Lillian Jackson Braun
Agatha Christie
The Glass Onion (2022) Netflix
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Website: https://trixiesilvertale.com/
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Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/author/trixiesilvertale
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Transcript
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Transcript
Introduction to Clued in Mystery
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to Clued in Mystery. I'm Sarah. And I'm Brooke, and we both love mystery. Hi, Brooke.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hi Sarah, are you ready for another interview episode? I'm so excited about this one. I am too. These are some special treats for listeners. It's like, I think we're giving them little gifts around the holiday season.
Meet Trixie Silvertail
00:00:35
Speaker
But today we have USA bestselling author Trixie Silvertail. And she grew up reading an endless supply of Lillian Jackson Braun, Hardy Boys, and Nancy Drew novels. She loves the amateur sleuths in cozy mysteries and obsesses about all things paranormal.
00:00:51
Speaker
Those two passions unite in her Mitzi Moon mysteries and Harper and Moon investigations, and she's thrilled to write them and share them with you. Welcome, Trixie. Thank you. Really happy to be here.
Character vs Plot-Driven Mysteries
00:01:05
Speaker
Yeah, so today we're going to talk about something that's kind of an intricate topic when it comes to building a mystery, the idea of character driven versus plot driven mysteries. And you have a background in film and television. Will you tell us about those experiences and like, did you work on mysteries?
00:01:26
Speaker
I didn't. So maybe the frustrated filmmaker in me was like, well, if I can't work on a mystery, I'll just write them. I worked on, this will definitely date me.
00:01:45
Speaker
CBS Afterschool specials, commercials, feature films. And there may have been a mystery element, but not like a murder she wrote. I mean, that was just sort of a side plot. And a lot of short films and things like that. So a wide variety of things. None of them really, I think, technically would fall under the mystery category.
00:02:15
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, that sounds really exciting. I loved after-school specials. Mm-hmm. There was always that little lesson.
00:02:27
Speaker
I think Hallmark has kind of taken over that genre a bit, where they have the character who has some terrible flaw that they have to repair in order to be redeemed and find their love in the end or whatever kind of thing. That sort of seems like it's gone that direction. Yeah, that's true. Kind of feeding the audience who grew up on the after-school specials with a grown-up version of it, I guess.
00:02:57
Speaker
So just thinking about the after-school specials and now the Hallmark productions, would you classify those as character-driven or as being plot-driven? And maybe we should start with kind of defining what we mean by character-driven and plot-driven. Sure, sure. So definition first, character-driven means that the story moves forward because the character as written acts from
00:03:26
Speaker
their definition. So if you have defined a character as having a generous heart or having a wicked streak or a deceptive tendency, their actions, based on who you've defined them to be, are what move the story forward. A plot driven which
00:03:46
Speaker
let's be fair, every Hallmark holiday movie is plot driven. A plot driven movie or television show is one where you can sit down with a bingo card and you can check the boxes.
00:03:59
Speaker
Girl is in trouble at work. Girl gets fired. Girl breaks up with boyfriend. Girl goes to country. Best friend encourages her to hang out with old high school. I mean, and you can just check it, check it, check it, check it. That is plot driven. There's a plot, there's a structure, and they just plug in different names, different occupations. It always starts the same. The middle point is the same. It ends the same happily ever after with the guy who, oh, you never thought she'd end up with him, but you did.
00:04:28
Speaker
So, yeah, plot-driven has a predictability to it. And that doesn't mean you can't create an interesting plot-driven book, movie, television show. But the tendency when you go with plot-driven is that it leans so heavily on the tropes that the predictability overtakes. So, that's my opinion.
00:04:58
Speaker
No, that's great. Thank you. And I think that's a really good example to use when thinking about whether something is character driven or plot driven and that idea of, you know, could we insert any character into this story and the same thing would happen versus
00:05:19
Speaker
If it's something that is more character driven, if you've put another character in, then the decisions that that character makes may not be the same because it's not the same. It's not the same values that you've assigned to that character.
00:05:33
Speaker
Exactly. Yep. Exactly. So Agatha Christie has kind of been criticized for not having fully developed characters. And so did her puzzle mysteries fall into that category too? Like could she pop in your opinion, could she just like pop a character in there and
Agatha Christie's Plot-Driven Approach
00:05:52
Speaker
make them work? Is that so basically in that case, it wouldn't be a flaw of her writing. It's just a fact of the matter that she was writing plot driven versus character driven.
00:06:02
Speaker
Absolutely. First and foremost, I love Agatha Christie. I'm not a huge fan of the movie adaptations, but directors in Hollywood and they take their creative license and they do what they will. There have been some great ones and there have been some misses in my opinion.
00:06:20
Speaker
She was a plot driven writer and that was because of all of the research that she put into the mystery she created and the means of death and you know all of that so for her.
00:06:36
Speaker
having a character die in a certain way that would have to then be unraveled because it was complex or hidden or multifaceted or required several characters to work together. That was what drove her story. So you can literally put anybody in there, any lord, any maid, any this, any that. The characters themselves didn't have anything so outstanding that they couldn't be replaced, in my opinion.
00:07:08
Speaker
No, very cool. That is such a neat thing to think about. Just thinking about this a little more. So Agatha Christie, she had the same detectives in multiple stories, but we don't really think of her books as being a series, right?
Expectations in Contemporary Series
00:07:32
Speaker
When an author is writing a series, is it more likely that it's a character driven series rather than something that's plot driven? Well, I think to your point.
00:07:46
Speaker
With Agatha Christie, you know, she was the draw. She was the selling point. If I went missing for 11 days or whatever the hell that story was, no one would notice or care or call out the National Guard. But she was what was treasured about her writing because she put herself
00:08:14
Speaker
in the role of sleuth, in a way. And so the mysteries that she wrote, because they were plot driven, they had a different feel for people. So each one stands alone. You can pick up any one of the books and read them and not feel like, oh, I wonder why that character changed from here to there. They don't change. You know, Hercule Prouweau is always the same. Slightly annoying, intelligent.
00:08:45
Speaker
you know, sleuth, whatever. Ms. Marble, she's always the same. There isn't a character arc for her. She doesn't suddenly, you know, take up modern dance and move to Africa. I mean, whatever. It's like, that isn't what the books were about. They were about a complex mystery that had to be unraveled by someone who was making subtle observations of, you know, sometimes perhaps too convenient.
00:09:14
Speaker
but subtle observations of clues and connections and ways that the scoop of characters that were scooped into that mystery were tied together, period. That was what it was about. So it's not the same as I think what we think of in a series nowadays when you have a long running series with a main character who is an amateur salute or whatever.
00:09:42
Speaker
And I feel like this is an expectation of readers now. That character has to develop, change, gain new powers, have a different understanding of themselves, meet new people. There is something about the way we write nowadays that requires a character to grow. And so if you take the first book of a series and the last book of a series,
00:10:09
Speaker
I don't think the character would be the same in most instances. Even if that person tends toward a plot-driven mystery, I think because of reader expectation, there's going to be some differences. I feel like that's a pretty standard trope now that the sleuth has to learn, grow, expand, and change. They can't just remain static for an entire series. That doesn't seem to be
00:10:38
Speaker
you know, what the market will bear anymore. In that answer, Trixie, you kind of revealed where I feel this lands is that it's not either or it's a spectrum, right? We have plot driven on one side, you have character driven on the other side. And I think a lot of times in our mind, we just like say, well, is the story one or the other, but actually it's a spectrum. Cause you said that you said someone might tend to be on this side of things, but they're still going to have character development.
00:11:08
Speaker
Mm hmm. I think that is true. And I know from what I've read in the in the genre, that is definitely more common now than, you know, Lily and Jackson Braun, for instance, the her character, there's some physical things that happen in the town of mansion, burns down, he has to move into a different house, you know, whatever. But her main character, Quill, he's the same guy in every book.
00:11:34
Speaker
He doesn't magically get more romantic or magically cry about this. He's the same guy in every book. That's the dependable character. And other people come and go. There's a little more character development because he is in a small town.
00:11:53
Speaker
they bring people into the town versus going out, you know, like with Hercule Poirot, he tends to travel and find a mystery on his journey kind of a thing. Whereas Quill is more of a Ms. Marple, where it's all happening in the same town. But again, really not a whole lot of development. They reference
00:12:13
Speaker
his past, you know, drinking problem or whatever, but you don't go through that with him and experience the change with him. It just happens to be something that, you know, is part of his backstory, so to speak.
00:12:30
Speaker
I wonder if the sub-genre matters. Brooke and I have talked a lot about different kinds of mysteries. I think a domestic thriller is going to be a lot more plot-driven than necessarily character-driven. Some of that, I think, is what we've been talking about with respect to series. A lot of domestic thrillers, it's
00:12:53
Speaker
You meet the cast of characters, and this is the only time you're ever going to be encountering them, right? There's not going to be a series of books about them. But, you know, I'm trying to run through, in my head, thinking about different series that I've read and trying to, you know, figure out, okay, are they more plot driven or series or, sorry, more plot driven or more character driven.
00:13:18
Speaker
But yeah, I'm curious if you've got any thoughts about kind of whether there are some subgenres that lend themselves more to being character versus plot driven.
00:13:29
Speaker
Well, I think that that's an accurate take when you're talking about suspense and that sort of thing. But again, it's generally more of a one-off type of a story. That same author may write another thriller, but it's usually a whole new set of characters. And the idea is, are you creating a story where the events that occur are the most critical piece? Like, do I need to put my character
00:13:58
Speaker
in this type of a dire straight that they have some unknown thing coming after them. This has been taken away. That's been taken away. They only have so many options.
00:14:15
Speaker
arranging the plot around them, forcing them to do something versus having the character decide to take an action that then results in the next action. Then they decide to take another action. So I think that is really the differentiation between plot driven and character driven.
00:14:35
Speaker
when the circumstances are the most important piece that leans into plot driven because you have to have these events occur to force the character into this tighter and tighter wedge versus the character making these decisions that then remove their
Analysis of 'Glass Onion' as Character-Driven
00:14:56
Speaker
options.
00:14:56
Speaker
So Trixie, you shared with us in getting ready for our episode that you have kind of broken down the film The Glass Onion in that way to think about whether it's character or plot driven. And I would love to know your take on that.
00:15:12
Speaker
Yeah, well, if I'll just start out with the spoiler alert. That's a very character driven. That's a very character driven film. And that's because the director is obsessed and writer he wrote and directed obsessed with creating the suspense that is not
00:15:34
Speaker
a surprise. In other words, he's not going to take you through the entire film and then have frogs rain from the sky at the end to make it all make sense, which it never does. But that's the ultimate Hollywood fix. Well, we've done all these things and now to just make it super weird,
00:15:53
Speaker
this is going to happen. It doesn't make any sense with the breadcrumbs we've laid, but this is going to just wipe people. They're just going to be knocked off their feet and so surprised and stunned and shocked, but it doesn't make any sense with anything that has happened.
00:16:10
Speaker
That's a plot-driven movie and not a great one. The difference with Glass Onion and Knives Out was the same. I guess Glass Onion, they also referred to as Knives Out 2, but Glass Onion was the sequel. The idea that they created was these very individual, unique characters. And some of them, to be fair, have more minor roles.
00:16:33
Speaker
could be anything, not critical. But the critical characters, the character played by Edward Norton, he makes very specific decisions based on his own internal fears. So he has lied and cheated and stolen
00:16:53
Speaker
and murdered, and everything he's doing is to cover his tracks. So he's created these dependent people by manipulating and blackmailing and buying their allegiance.
00:17:07
Speaker
So you can't just put any other character in there. His specific fears, number one, being found out and also the fact that he's not very intelligent and he covers it with money. Those are all things that direct his actions and eventually are his undoing because the character, the detective played by Daniel Craig is
00:17:33
Speaker
smarter than him. But he gets backed into a corner. He makes a choice and he chooses to go to the island with this woman who's posing as her twin sister and they're trying to pull off. But again,
00:17:52
Speaker
You couldn't talk someone into that unless that particular character had a certain drive, and her drive was to clear her sister's name. She didn't commit suicide. She was murdered, and that was important to her. So she was willing to go along with this.
00:18:09
Speaker
obviously insane plan, you know, to go to a private island owned by a billionaire who could snuff you out in a minute and indeed he tried, right? So those are the reasons why a character-driven film can be so tight because characters only act in a specific way because of how you've established their psyche.
00:18:35
Speaker
You couldn't take a character who had that commitment to clearing her sister's name and getting what was rightfully hers, which was the credit for wanting to shut down this insane explosive fuel project. If somebody was just a home baker who never wanted to leave their house and had five cats and doesn't travel, well, you can't convince that person to do these things because they don't have the conviction
00:19:05
Speaker
So she required some convincing. She didn't jump on the thing, you know, and that makes it more interesting, gives her some depth. But there's no way you could have convinced her if her character had been different. So that is kind of what drives that whole plot. Each of those characters is acting
00:19:26
Speaker
honestly, from a fairly self-serving place. And ultimately, the killer, the most self-serving, is manipulating their wants and desires to get what he wants from them. And when they fail to meet his expectation, he just kills them and moves on. So that is really
00:19:47
Speaker
why I feel that is such a character-driven film, because those actions are taken based on what has been established about the personality and values of each of the characters involved.
00:20:01
Speaker
So while it appears kind of Agatha Christie on the surface because it's the group and there's a bunch of people involved, it's not the plot driving it. So interesting. And I would say, and maybe that's because I'm a creature of our contemporary world, much more satisfying, right? Because it's believable because you're inside these people's, like you said, their convictions and their motivations, and it all feels more believable and satisfying in the end.
00:20:31
Speaker
Right, because I'm sure you've both watched a film or television or even read a book where you're going along and you're in it and you've suspended your disbelief and then you're like, what?
00:20:45
Speaker
That doesn't make any sense. Because nothing has been established to support that decision. And that's when the plot has then been shoehorned into the story to make it go a certain way that the writer didn't build up
00:21:05
Speaker
to make believable. And that is not satisfying. That takes you out of the story. You step back and you're like, oh, all right, I guess, let's see where this goes. But your emotional investment has been changed. It's not the same. Yeah, I can definitely think of some examples of that. And as Brooke says, that is not a satisfying experience.
00:21:29
Speaker
No, no, it's not because then you have to start making excuses why you should accept that. And that's not how you want to be entertained. You want it to feel like it makes sense and there's a reason. And, you know, then you get to the end and you're like, oh, I didn't see that coming. But if I go back and look at this and this and this and this, that totally makes sense versus what?
00:21:58
Speaker
My favorite one is when they introduce a character in the last five minutes that hasn't been in the entire episode movie, whatever. And they are the ones who did it and you're like, really? Okay, great. You know, sure, fine. I can't stand that because, you know, like the whole idea, the whole reason people get invested in mysteries is to see if they can figure it out.
00:22:22
Speaker
So if you're just going to pull out a character at the very end that I didn't ever get to meet or hear interrogated or view their actions, well, of course I'm not going to know it was them because I know nothing about them. So how convenient.
00:22:38
Speaker
Yes. Fair play, right? Are a golden age, uh, predecessors established that and there is still value in, in that rule, I think where you have all the information and see if you can put the, put the conclusion together yourself. Yeah, absolutely. Thinking about your own work, Trixie, your novels, do you tend to write plot or character driven stories?
Trixie Silvertail on Character-Driven Writing
00:23:03
Speaker
I definitely tend towards character driven. I,
00:23:09
Speaker
I have a structure. I'm an outliner, at least loosely. I'm not over the top with it, but I do like to have a structure. And that is just meant to have a flow to it. And then what happens along the way is based on the character. And nine times out of 10, what I
00:23:37
Speaker
have in my outline isn't what happens because the character makes a different decision and I go with that because that makes it interesting to me because if I'm surprised by what has happened then I know the reader will be surprised by what has happened so I like the idea and the comfort of having the structure so I know where I wanted to head or what I wanted to hit on but if
00:24:06
Speaker
something changes along the way, I don't resist it in favor of the plot. I go with what the character is doing, especially with my longer running series, like with Mitzi Moon, because I know that character inside and out. And so I know if they are making a different decision, that's the right one. And I just, and I go with that. So yeah, for me, it really is more about the character because I feel like that builds more rapport with the reader.
00:24:36
Speaker
a reader can understand a plot and can read a plot, can identify the plot points, but they don't connect with a plot. They connect with a character. So if you are writing a series and you want to pull the reader along with you, there has to be somebody there that they find relatable and interesting enough to
00:25:02
Speaker
follow. So I feel like for me, character is the way to go. I love that. And you're right. Those are the series that we can't wait till the next book comes out because we have to know what happens to our friends. They start to feel like your friends in this little world that you like to visit. So yeah, I love that. Yeah. I find that to be very true.
00:25:29
Speaker
I suppose that's a really helpful way of thinking about whether something is more plot versus character-driven is, you know, when you finish a book, do you feel like you've just spent time with friends that you want to spend some more time with, right? That, you know, you've got this connection with them. Yeah.
00:25:51
Speaker
Yeah, and those domestic thrillers that you mentioned earlier, Sarah, you really never think about those people again. It was a fun roller coaster ride, but you don't wonder what happened to Jane Doe after the thing ends, right? Right, exactly. Yeah, and most people, if you ask readers, oh, what did you like about this book already? They don't like, oh, I really liked the way they got that exotic poison from South America.
00:26:17
Speaker
I know who gives a crap about that. They're like, oh, I love, I really identified with the main character. She's so sassy. I love that. Or, you know, she's so kind to people. That really, that really made me feel good. I think that's how people, you know, those are the comments that readers make. For the most part, I mean, occasionally you'll, you'll get an academic critic who,
00:26:39
Speaker
You know, feel the need to point out that Animal X only has, you know, no ducla or whatever, whatever weird random thing people fixate on. And they're like, I need to read about this because people need to know that, you know, dogs can't look up or whatever. So yeah.
00:26:58
Speaker
that is a whole different thing, but the majority, the majority of readers are going to identify with the character and that's what they're coming back for, more of the character.
00:27:10
Speaker
Well, Trixie, this has just been wonderful. I know I have learned a lot. I personally will be re-listening to this episode later because it is just really educational, I think, from the standpoint of an author. But even as a reader, I feel like I have my eyes opened to why I like certain things and why other stories have turned me off. And now I have something to put my finger on. So thank you so much. You bet.
00:27:36
Speaker
Of course. Yeah. It was fun to hang out with you guys.
Where to Find Trixie Silvertail
00:27:39
Speaker
Uh, so before we end today, Trixie, where can our listeners find you?
00:27:45
Speaker
Well, I am on Instagram and Facebook, and my website is Trixie, Silver Tail, T-A-L-E, dot com, and they can find more information about the different series that I write and books and characters and all kinds of things like that. How to get a hold of me, whatever.
00:28:07
Speaker
Well, thank you. And thank you listeners for joining us today on Clued in Mystery. I'm Brooke. And I'm Sarah. And we both love mystery. Clued in Mystery is written and produced by Brooke Peterson and Sarah M. Steven. Music is by Shane Ivers.
00:28:23
Speaker
If you liked what you heard, please consider telling a friend, leaving a review, or subscribing with your favourite podcast listening app. Visit our website at cluedinmystery.com to sign up for our newsletter, The Clued In Chronicle, or to join our paid membership, The Clued In Cartel. We run social media at Clued In Mystery.