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063 | Marriage Episode 8: On Church
330 Plays3 years ago
How does a couple choose a church?
How do you serve when you're so busy?
In this episode Josh and Phy talk about their own journey of finding and serving in church, how to choose one wisely, and the important role the body of Christ plays in your marriage.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Purpose
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Verity. I'm your host, Felicia Masonheimer, an author, speaker, and Bible teacher. This podcast will help you embrace the history and depth of the Christian faith, ask questions, seek answers, and devote yourself to becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. You don't have to settle for watered-down Christian teaching. And if you're ready to go deeper, God is just as ready to take you there. This is Verity, where every woman is a theologian.
Honest Marriage Series: Church Involvement
00:00:30
Speaker
Hi guys, this is Felicia Masonheimer and welcome back to Verity Podcast. We are in the middle of the Honest Marriage series and my co-host for this series is my husband, Josh. Hey guys. And so for this episode, we're going to talk about how to be involved in the church and how to navigate church as a married couple.
00:00:49
Speaker
We have talked a little bit about the theology of marriage in earlier episodes, but this time we're talking about some practicals. And because church is such a broad topic, we're going to talk about it in three sections. First, discussing the benefits of being in a church as a married couple.
00:01:06
Speaker
Secondly, discussing how to choose a church as a couple, and third, how to serve in a church together. And so we hope to keep this pretty concise. And I mean, suffice it to say, we, having moved around as much as we have, we have been in quite a few churches. Yeah, we have.
00:01:25
Speaker
And we were in two churches together when we lived in Virginia, then one in Pennsylvania, and we've been in two since we were back in Michigan. But we also visit churches when we travel, and we especially love to visit our friends churches when we are out of state. And so it's been really cool to actually get to expose our kids to these different denominations in church environments and also experience those together. Yeah, it's fun.
00:01:50
Speaker
Okay, so let's start with the benefits of being in church as a married couple. When Josh and I were talking about this before we started recording, the first thing that we thought about was accountability. So Josh, what do you think as a husband, maybe what does accountability look like for you in the church?
00:02:13
Speaker
Well, I'm part of an accountability group and you know, we meet once or twice a month and it has been like a really great place for me to just kind of like air my thoughts or concerns about
Community and Accountability Post-COVID
00:02:30
Speaker
my personal growth or my growth in my marriage or you know, struggles that I may have and so
00:02:41
Speaker
We are able to just kind of have an open discussion with each other about our purity, how we are uplifting our wives and how we are handling tough situations. And we admonish one another and we text throughout the week and encourage one another to put in the best effort and to serve the Lord as we serve in our marriage.
00:03:08
Speaker
I love that because it makes me think of that Hebrews verse that says to spur one another on toward love and good deeds. And that spurring is like the picture of like a rider and a horse pushing them forward, almost sometimes painfully pushing them forward. Horses don't like spurs. Horses do not like spurs, but like to have a friend that will
00:03:31
Speaker
support you and walk with you and even correct you from a place of love is just such a healthy thing to have. And so accountability, I think that is perhaps the biggest thing. I find it so interesting that, you know, especially post COVID, people still are not coming back from online church and
00:03:53
Speaker
It's not to do necessarily with the politics of COVID all the time. I think that's actually sometimes an excuse for people to not put themselves back into community and back into accountability where people can know what's going on in your life and speak into your life and form those relationships. It's a lot easier to isolate. And I would say that's a really dangerous way to live your marriage.
00:04:18
Speaker
you're just kind of off the deep end where no one knows what's going on. And you don't have any sort of compass, but yourselves, of course, and family, maybe. Yeah. And so without a compass or without people who can say, Hey, how are you guys doing? What's going on? You know, how's your walk with the Lord? That's, you're just basically drifting.
00:04:41
Speaker
And the only people holding you accountable are yourselves. And that's a really dangerous place to be. Marriage is supposed to be a part of this greater marriage between the church and Christ. It's a family within a family. And when you don't live that way, you live unanchored from the thing that is going to help you most in your marriage. I mean, I'm thinking back. We've talked about this before in the previous episode when we lived in Pennsylvania.
Scriptural Teaching and Unity in Church
00:05:11
Speaker
how the church there really supported us. Yeah. Yeah. And you were going through a lot then. Yeah. And our marriage was too. But you had that group of women since day one that you met with and had your community in.
00:05:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So that's one benefit is like the accountability and then yeah, that community support, emotional support, those friendships, the mentorship. Another benefit of course is teaching, which we didn't talk about before we were recording, but just scriptural teaching and learning more about the Lord.
00:05:50
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes people in the hub of life don't get to open the Bible during the week. So, you know, church is at least one place to hear the truth spoken.
00:06:02
Speaker
Right. Which ideally, you know, you would be seeking the Lord daily, but in seasons where that's not as frequent, at least having that Sunday where you're, you're coming under that teaching and you're learning and you're being taught scriptural truth is, is so important to do it together, especially.
00:06:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of like an accountability session right there. You're coming back and it's like, oh, like, you know, have you been in the word and like just sharing the teaching together from the message that you hear, you can reflect on it in the week as well. That's been something that we've done since we were dating really after the sermon, discussing it in the car and stuff. Yeah.
00:06:47
Speaker
That's actually one of our, I don't know, I've enjoyed that. We'll be in the car and we'll ask each other, so what'd you think of the sermon? What stood out to you? What did you find impactful? And I think that's a really helpful way to kind of process together what you heard because you each take different things away. Right. You each have your own perspective.
00:07:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So those are just a few of the benefits. And I mean, scripture talks a lot about this. In fact, we had a verse here in Ephesians 4, so right before the Ephesians 5 passages we looked at in earlier episodes, where it talks about unity in the body of Christ. And it says,
00:07:22
Speaker
I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you are called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
00:07:49
Speaker
So Paul here is talking about the church as a whole and we as a married couple are a part of this picture. And I kind of find it interesting that, you know, everything he's commanding here to the whole church is also what he commands in marriage. Yeah, that's true.
00:08:06
Speaker
There's no command in marriage that isn't also found to the entire church, men and women both. So everything we're called to do for each other, to be humble and gentle and patient, bearing with one another in love, maintaining unity in marriage, that's all expected of the church at large. So it's really great practice for a married couple to be in church because you're practicing the character traits you'll need in both places.
00:08:32
Speaker
Yeah. Those are also a number of the fruits of the spirit. Yeah. That's a good point. Actually, if you are in the spirit and communing and following the Lord, then you'll exhibit those fruits.
00:08:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great point. I'll turn there in Galatians 5, where it says, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control, and against such things there is no law. It's so true, there's like five of those that he mentioned in this Ephesians passage, and it's evidence of the Holy Spirit working in your life towards your spouse and towards your church.
00:09:13
Speaker
If you're listening to this marriage series, there's a good chance that you or someone you love is married. And that's fantastic because on December 7th, my brand new co-authored marriage book is launching into the world. It's called The Flirtation Experiment.
Choosing a Church: Practical Steps
00:09:30
Speaker
And if that title intrigues you, good, because I can't wait for wives to pick this book up and be encouraged and equipped
00:09:40
Speaker
to pursue their husbands in ways they maybe never expected to do so. When I wrote this book, I was looking back on a year when I was really struggling to cultivate a relationship with Josh.
00:09:55
Speaker
I felt lonely, I felt disconnected, and I realized that I could wait for him to change it or I could make the change. And so I made a list of 30 flirtations, all different kinds of ways to show him that I loved him. And through this experiment, I found that I actually was changed.
00:10:13
Speaker
I co-authored this book with my friend Lisa Jacobson, who's been married 28 years to my 8 years, and we alternate chapters showing you the ideas that we used to cultivate an intimate and fun, romantic and flirtatious marriage.
00:10:29
Speaker
You can pre-order the book now. Anywhere books are sold from Amazon to Barnes & Noble to Christian Book, or you can go to theflortationexperiment.com to get two free chapters in the introduction and to be notified when the book launches. I hope you guys will grab it. We have some awesome bonuses for those who pre-order, and I'm excited to get this book into your hands.
00:10:53
Speaker
Now I want to move us to our next thing we were going to talk about, which is how to choose a church. And Josh and I have done this multiple times and had to change churches for a variety of reasons. And so we're not experts on this, but you know, we have done it many times now and I don't know, I guess we'll just try to give a few practicals that have worked for us and you can pray about it and see if it's something that would work for you and where your situation is.
00:11:20
Speaker
My first thought is to pray, which seems very obvious. Definitely that there is prayer taking place on a Sunday morning, as well as encouraged throughout the week, or some places have a prayer vigil. And then praying together, though, about the choice.
00:11:45
Speaker
You know, like that's kind of what I was thinking is how we would pray about our church decisions until we had a sense of peace about what decision we were making. So do you have any other thoughts about how to choose a church or something that we did when we were in that process?
00:12:06
Speaker
I think for us, what we were looking for was that, like I said, there would be prayer, also that the Bible was opened and read from on a Sunday. Seems simple, but... And we always looked for
00:12:22
Speaker
for the Holy Spirit to be exhibited in a seeking of the Spirit for the message and for the direction, because that's the true compass in addition to the word. Then community has been a big aspect for us, that the church's community
00:12:43
Speaker
focused. So these things may vary person to person, of course, but they were kind of the core values that we looked for in our church hunts.
00:12:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think you brought up some really important points. Now, one thing that made it a little easier for us, correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I think it was a little easier for us because we both come from very similar church backgrounds. We were both raised, charismatic, and then became more, I don't know, non-denominational Baptist over time, or attended Baptist churches, I should say. Yeah.
00:13:24
Speaker
So, you know, we both are very comfortable in environments that are less liturgical. We're fine with a liturgical environment, but we're perfectly comfortable in a more expressive church environment. I think that when you have a couple where one comes from a very fundamentalist background, very strict Baptist background or very liturgical background, and the other is from a more expressive tradition, like a charismatic church, that's gonna be a little bit more difficult to navigate.
00:13:53
Speaker
And my encouragement, theologically, would be to really get to the root of the reason why you like certain things about a church and remember that preferences, like worship style, are a third tier issue. They aren't the top tier. They aren't the most important thing.
00:14:13
Speaker
The most important thing is if the church adheres to the Orthodox doctrines, the sound teaching that's been historically taught over the course of the church. And if you need more on that, I have a whole episode on how to determine core doctrine that you can listen to. And then your second tier issues are really important. They're like,
00:14:31
Speaker
infant baptism versus believers baptism or you know whether a church practices spiritual gifts like tongues or not those are really important and they change the culture of the church so you do want to be sure that you are unified on those things too.
00:14:49
Speaker
But preferential things like worship style and such, those things are third tier issues. And so hopefully you and your spouse will unite
Engaging in Church Community
00:15:00
Speaker
around the core doctrines and then those secondary issues like baptism, you know, choices and things like that. So you can go to the same church. But sometimes it takes time to process through that and land in the same place and compromises need to be struck.
00:15:16
Speaker
on some of these things because, you know, they are a big deal. We had it easier. A lot of churches too, not all I guess, have like a new members class or like a class that you'd take if you're interested in becoming a member. And those typically go over the statements of faith
00:15:38
Speaker
and the core values of the church. So if you're able to stick around long enough through the third tier stuff, then you can really find out what they actually value and you may be surprised.
00:15:52
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good point because we've been through multiple members classes to find out what the doctrines of the church were and if we agreed with them and if it's a place we wanted to stay. And there were always things that we did not fully agree with.
00:16:09
Speaker
at the churches that we were in. And we were like, well, you know what? It's something that we're willing to submit to because it's not a core doctrinal thing, and we're just going to let that go. One thing I thought you brought up about community. I kind of want to backtrack a little bit.
00:16:24
Speaker
There was a church that we were in for a while and in Virginia, and it was a big, big, big church. And so we both knew that in order to make the most of a big church or any church, you have to get involved right away. You need to make connections, make friendships, have people over.
00:16:44
Speaker
get in community with them, be intentional. That is how church works. And so that's our first thing when we join a church. That's the first thing we do is we get connected, we find ways to serve, and we start inviting people over. But at this church, it was so big. And we were just looking for a small group that really focused on the Bible itself. We ended up in a small group with people who were, what, 40 years older than us?
00:17:11
Speaker
Yeah, they were in their 60s. They were all in their 60s and 70s and 80s. And it was the sweetest thing. They were so welcoming, though. They're like, oh, young blood. They were so excited to have us, and they were so sweet. And so I think we went to like a picnic they had. Yeah, we went to a picnic. We went. We did stuff with them. We were in that small group for like a year, maybe. Yeah.
00:17:33
Speaker
And it was the sweetest time and we did end up leaving that church because we needed people in our stage of life and we wanted a church that was smaller and had a more word for focused Sunday sermon, but it was a really sweet time. And so I don't know, I guess I think of that as like example of two things.
00:17:53
Speaker
Be open-minded to how to get involved in church with your spouse, but also if you need people in your stage of life, there's nothing wrong with leaving a church to find that because we, especially now that we have small children, that has been so important to us is to have people who are in our stage of life. And that was a huge factor in what church we end up in. And also just being in our immediate community, our actual city, as much as possible.
00:18:21
Speaker
It does help to cultivate friendships that you're going to cultivate outside of church. Like you said, in the community, if that area is your community, and that way you can really go deeper with those people and have accountability because someone that you're just on the surface with isn't going to hold you accountable.
00:18:46
Speaker
Right. And it is really hard to go deeper if you're only seeing someone once a week. It's having people over during the week, having a small group. The current group that we're in, the small group we're in at our current church, we see those people Sunday. We see them Monday and we see them Wednesday. At least I do. You see them twice a week. I see them three times a week. And that just really helps build those multiple touches of community where people know you and they're walking with you in your real life.
00:19:17
Speaker
So choosing a church, I would just say, pray, get on the same page together, discuss it, walk with one another, and make sure to know the difference between a core doctrinal issue or a secondary practice issue in the church and those issues of preference. We don't want to mix those up or elevate those preferential things to the very top of the list. Okay, final thing.
00:19:44
Speaker
how do you serve in a church together as spouses when you have different gifts and maybe a bunch of children? Which I think is funny the way that we are serving right now is kind of the opposite.
00:20:03
Speaker
like you are watching babies and i'm teaching kids it's true you got yourself roped in so right now yes i am volunteering in nursery watching babies third through fifth graders
00:20:20
Speaker
And Josh is helping teach third through fifth graders. And one tip that we have is if you're serving in church, which I would argue that as much as possible, you should be because we're not meant to be consumers in a church. We're meant to be people who are giving of ourselves. And I can tell you that we have three children, six, four, and one. And since they were born, we've been serving in the church in some capacity.
00:20:46
Speaker
And that might be one Sunday a month, but it's something that we really believe is important because we're not consumers. We're people who are called to serve. And this is even before I was in real ministry outside of the church. So right now I am taking care of babies in the nursery once a month and you are in middle school ministry or elementary.
00:21:14
Speaker
Yeah. And so what we try to do, this is my hot tip is schedule our serving for the same day, the same Sunday, because that way we are in our separate areas volunteering on the same day. And then the rest of the month we can sit together because otherwise what happens is you actually only get two Sundays
Challenges and Humor in Church Service
00:21:40
Speaker
a month that you're in service together. Yeah.
00:21:43
Speaker
that's not that many. Yeah, and you can share the sermon with one another, but for you to really hear the Lord speaking to you, it is more effective to actually sit through the sermon.
00:21:59
Speaker
together. Yeah. And when you're watching babies, sometimes I can catch the sermon because it's streamed in the nursery, but a lot of times I can't because the babies are very busy. So I don't actually get to participate and it's better if we can be together. So we try to schedule our serving opportunities on the same day. Now there was a period of time in one church that we were in where we led the college ministry for three and a half years or three years. And
00:22:26
Speaker
At that point, we were attending the first service and our kids were with us during that service in church, why we trained them to sit through. And then the second service, they went to nursery and we taught that class together.
00:22:43
Speaker
And a lot of what we did in that class was because my gift is teaching. I taught, and then Josh would help facilitate discussion and did a lot of more of the, during the week, one-on-one discipleship with the male students. And so we loved that. It was a really special, special three years.
00:23:04
Speaker
Yeah. And like all those kids are still around and they're starting to get married and, you know, growing up and it's cool to watch them and just like, you know, they're, it's like a connection that we have, even though we don't see them that often. It's like, Oh, like I know you. And, you know, we have like, we shared a special experience.
00:23:27
Speaker
Yeah, we love them. And yeah, to this day, it's just so fun to see what the Lord's doing in their lives and where they're going and what they're doing. And so it was just a blessing to our marriage to serve together, even though we have very different gifts. You know, Josh and I would go over the text or the subject together, and then I would teach it, and he would be in there with me. Sometimes we have children sleeping on the floor in the class. There were times that happened.
00:23:57
Speaker
And it was a lot of work, but it was really special at the same time to serve alongside one another in that way. Even though it was a huge sacrifice of time and we had small children the entire time, it was still a really great experience. And so we did that for three years.
00:24:14
Speaker
Now we're not in college ministry anymore, but it's still, there's so many creative ways that you can serve. At other churches, we served in refreshments at that one church. I think there's definitely a void.
00:24:27
Speaker
in the church like that's why I'm teaching third through fifth graders right now instead of being just like a helper on the sideline is because there is just a lack of help and I think it's it's important like you said not to be a consumer but to serve like you know your kids are being watched and cared for as well like yeah the least you can do is chip in
00:24:55
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's like some people think, you know, that's really offensive. I'm a really busy person. Reality is everybody's a really busy person. And, you know, it's about priorities. And the funny thing is, is that when you serve alongside your spouse, I feel like it actually really grows you with your spouse and it teaches you things about yourself and about your spouse that you didn't know.
00:25:20
Speaker
it strengthens you. You know, Josh and I had so many great conversations when we were leading college ministry and when you're praying for students or thinking about how to present a lesson or navigating the discussion, you know, what we learned through that taught us a lot about each other and about our marriage, about our individual gifts. I noticed things about Josh's leadership that I didn't notice until I saw him helping lead this college class of students. And so it's just, it's
00:25:49
Speaker
Getting rid of that consumer mentality, I think really will do a lot of favors for your marriage, but also for the greater family you're a part of in the church. Yeah, definitely. Do you have any other thoughts on serving? I was thinking about serving.
00:26:05
Speaker
in other churches that we've been in and things that we've done. And one that popped into my head was vacation Bible school. I was just going to say that. Oh man. So that was an experience. Okay. So we have to tell that let's end with this story because
00:26:21
Speaker
Serving together as a couple is not always going to be easy. Sometimes it will be really hard. And it's for a season. I think there are seasons where you just, you don't do as much. Like what we're doing now isn't anywhere near as much work as when we did college ministry, because that was every single Sunday
Mentorship and Sharing Wisdom
00:26:40
Speaker
for three years. And what we're doing now is once a month
00:26:44
Speaker
helping with the children's ministry. But when we were engaged and then first married, we were again at this very large church in Virginia. Huge. Huge. Thousands, like 7,000 people. And we decided- Twice as many kids. Twice as many kids. And we had no kids. We should make this point. We had no children yet. And we volunteered for Vacation Bible School this one year.
00:27:13
Speaker
Whoever leads Vacation Bible School is a saint. Like, anyone who serves in it, like, powered to you. They deserve all of the medals and the trophies. Like, all of them. They deserve awards. Because you were, we were both in kindergarten. Was it kindergarten? I think so. But you were, like, the leader of, like, 24 kids, and you had a couple helpers. I had two helpers, and I had 24 kindergartners. And you had how many?
00:27:43
Speaker
I was a helper with a smaller group, like 13, but I was put in charge of the problem child. Poor child. He literally put his head through a tabletop.
00:27:55
Speaker
So one of the hilarious things was we were both in school and working at this point. And we still look back on that week as the most exhausted prop. I still would say I was more exhausted that week of working full time and then going to VBS for three hours and then going home than I have ever been in the history of my life since. And that includes newborns waking up multiple times a day.
00:28:25
Speaker
it was rough it was rough but it bonded us together we served together we learned a lot and you know now that we do have kids we continue to serve in the church together and i think it really does a lot for us it's all easy compared to vbs so our advice is do vbs when you're engaged or first married and everything is easy after that right not really but
00:28:53
Speaker
I hope that those who are listening are encouraged to nail down their priorities when looking for church and to assess if they're being consumers in church or if they're actively serving their family and their body of Christ and to seek accountability because that is so important for your marriage.
00:29:14
Speaker
I think it's important to for those who are established and have like a mentor or accountability for you to pray about when you might be at a point to mentor someone younger than yourself because there's all this wasted knowledge that could be, you know, once you consume
00:29:41
Speaker
all the experiences and the mentorship of an older person in your life, you then need to pour that out into a youth and be their mentor. Everybody can turn around and give
Episode Wrap-Up and Listener Engagement
00:30:00
Speaker
that wisdom to someone just a little bit spiritually younger than them. Yeah.
00:30:05
Speaker
Yeah, there's always, it's tightest too, the older and the younger, the older men, the younger men, the older women, the younger women. You might be, you know, a 26 year old wife with no kids, but you can disciple the 22 year old young woman in your church. Like it doesn't have to be this huge age gap. You don't have to be 45 to do this, but everybody, everybody can glean from what you're learning and what the Lord is teaching you.
00:30:30
Speaker
All right, guys, thanks so much for hanging with us again for this episode. We'll be back next week with episode nine, and then we'll be wrapping up this series at the end of the year in December. We appreciate your listening. And as always, if you enjoy this series or you just enjoy Verity as a whole, we would love it if you would give us a review that helps other people find the podcast. We're so grateful for you and we hope you have a wonderful week.
00:30:58
Speaker
Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Verity. You can connect with fellow listeners by following me on Instagram at Felicia Masonheimer or on our Facebook page by the same name. Also visit FeliciaMasonheimer.com for links to each episode and the show notes.