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The Art of Sales Influence & Building Strong Relationships w/Tim McGee
30 Plays5 months ago
In this episode, Brian Dietmeyer talks to Tim McGee, VP of Global Sales Ops at Elsevier Health, about the importance of influence in leadership, particularly for frontline sales managers. They delve into strategies for building effective relationships within an organization and how these relationships can enhance productivity and decision-making without adding extra burdens. This episode is a must-listen for sales leaders grappling with the challenges of today's fast-paced environment and looking to improve their leadership skills. Get ready for an insightful conversation about the power of influence and operational excellence, right here on CloseMode.
Timestamps:
00:00 Frontline sales managers face extensive responsibilities and challenges.
05:14 Informal process of obtaining money and influence.
07:16 Leadership fosters transparency for collaborative problem-solving.
10:34 Empathy and understanding transforming sales team dynamics.
16:22 Lead by example, support strong performers effectively.
17:12 Embrace gray, identify sphere, make the investment.
20:18 Generous thanks for contributing to sales community.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Enterprise Sales Show
00:00:03
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to another edition of closed mode, the enterprise sales show. I'm Brian deep Meyer, CEO of close strong.
Elsevier Health's Mission
00:00:11
Speaker
And today I'm super lucky to be here with Tim McGee, who's VP of global sales apps with Elsevier health. And for those of you who aren't familiar, it's a pretty cool company. They help research and healthcare care pros advance science, improve health outcomes, quality ah combining quality information and data sets with anical ah an analytical Maybe I just lost my job as also a voiceover spokesperson. Tim, welcome welcome to the show. Brian, good seeing you again, and thanks for having me today.
Leadership and Influence Today
00:00:39
Speaker
So when when we were chatting a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about leadership, which is is always fun. and But we kind of zeroed in on leadership and in today's environment. and And you said something that I think we we kind of know, but we don't spend enough time on it, that today it's it's really about um influence, right? And and I think we were talking even more about the frontline sales manager. So here's here's my question for you. I think we all get generally right what what influence is, but i I'd love your definition of how it applies to enterprise sales leaders and maybe how is it different from a central command and control model? Yeah, no, it's a
Challenges for Frontline Sales Leaders
00:01:19
Speaker
great question, Brian. and yeah when When I think about it, sales leaders, particularly the frontline sales leader,
00:01:25
Speaker
They're being asked to do more and more every single day. And we're being honest, it's probably one of the toughest gigs out there, the frontline sales leader. yeah And no, you're being asked to do a ton. you You have to hit a number, which involves every person on your team having to hit their number for you to achieve your your number. um Growing, developing the team, you're responsible for the growth and development, um passing product feedback along the voice of the customer. it It's really a lot that we ask these frontline sales managers to do. And know when i when I think about it, it's how can a sales leader build those relationships um you know outside of their core sales
Building External Relationships
00:02:02
Speaker
team? How do they build relationships that will acknowledge that someone has a lot on their plate? And how can I help them be a little bit more effective with getting this information that we know will help? Really, that's where I think influence comes into play.
00:02:17
Speaker
So it's you're talking about the the internal team, um like the people out outside of maybe the cross-functional people who support the sales team. It's the influence the sales leader has with them. I really think it's it's how do we get the information from that frontline sales leader into the hands of our product organization, our commercial organization, our marketing teams without having to tax them with doing all of that themselves. it's It's really how do you put yourself in position with technology and tools to get that critical information to the teams that need it without having the sales leader to have 10 more things on their plate.
00:02:53
Speaker
right Yeah. And man, we, we hear this so much. you're You're right in it. And it's still probably understated how brutal that job is today. And, you know, I've talked to a lot of people about frontline coaching and they're like coaching, right? My, that the stat out there today is 5% of deals in the pipe are going to coach cause frontline managers are slammed. And it's, it's kind of sad, right? Because there's, yeah there's so much, there's so much else um going on. So do do you think that this need to, do you know, when there's not direct reporting capabilities, direct line reporting, that sort of thing, this need for influence is more so now than in the past. And if so, why do you, what do you think is changing?
Productivity and Organizational Influence
00:03:30
Speaker
That's, that's making this skill more important.
00:03:33
Speaker
Yeah, I do think it's happening more so today or it's more present today. um Let's face it, I think across any single industry right now, everybody, whether you're in a sales role or not, you're you're being asked to do a little bit more with with less resources or less yeah time. It's pretty much business nature. It's how can we all be more productive with our our time and resources. yep um But you know kind of as I mentioned before, it's really about building those strong relationships outside of your core team. yeah um that operational influences I like to call it, you know, we have AI tools now.
00:04:05
Speaker
um we can really expand your reach and functionality with some tools and systems that exist in sales operation space or in the general sales space that allow those frontline managers to to maybe use their time a little bit more effectively. As you said, coaching on only 5% of the deals, that's not ideal. Nobody wants to say that or hear it. I think there's been a lot of surveys out there that say, um hey, here's reality at 5%. The desired practice is 60, 70, 80% of those calls are being coached. How do we allow more time for our sales leaders to do that?
Informal Influence in Organizations
00:04:38
Speaker
and I think it really turns back to systems and tooling and a good process in place for for those reps or for those managers to be more effective. Yeah, it's it's funny as as you bring up the influence thing, ah that something comes to mind for me when I was a newly minted VP and a Fortune 50 VP of Sales. um i you know i I showed up for the annual budget meeting. and I had my PowerPoint and I ran the national account group and here's my argument why I need 8% increase. and
00:05:03
Speaker
and funds next year. And I was sitting out in the hallway with a guy, Mike Pusatarian, and he said, how are you doing? I'm like, I'm good. I just hope I get the ah funding increase. And he said, um wait, you think this is where the money's handed out? And I was like, well, yeah, that's what I flew to DC for. Like this is the the budget meeting. We all come in with our PowerPoint deck. And it's funny because you just really made this come alive for me. His point was this has happened. in, in the cafeteria over drinks, over golf, like everybody that's lined up here in the hallway looking for this money is has already got it. And, and so that it, I don't, you know, when you think about, when you talk about having those, uh, that influential relationship with those internal folks, that's kind of what comes to mind. It's a very informal process, isn't it? It it it really is. Um, you know,
00:05:56
Speaker
and And I think we'll talk about it a little bit today, but it it really gets into something that you have to practice and you have to continuously practice that, that method to get really successful at it. And that breeds success and other people see that success and it makes you more and more influential within your organization. So I absolutely, you know, would agree with that statement. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's not all that different. I mean, nobody internally wants us selling to one another, but we have talked about internal customers right in the past. That was a big thing. And the, And it it almost is similar to a sales plan. Who are my people? Who do I need to stay close to? I need to know what's going on in Tim's area and that it, yeah. It's about finding those common goals too. Oftentimes two people are trying to do the same things. Can you connect those two so you can work together on it? You said something a week or so ago when we were talking that, um,
00:06:43
Speaker
influence is getting into the hearts and minds of others. And, and actually I think I said, do that. That's a tall order, man. That's, I get it. I get it. And I agree with it, but like, how how do you do that at scale? Cause we, we're, we're, we're trying to develop those relationships with, you know, maybe a lot, a lot of folks. Um, how how does one do that? All right. It teaches us to speak about how I look at it. Um, and, and for me, sure it's really about. being honest, open, a little bit of humbleness and and really what that ties back to is being authentic. yeah um You can probably look at that from like the historical lens of the manager versus the leader. um And I think in a leadership role, you know, sometimes it's instinct for people to get information and want to hold on to it. Or there's a fear that I can't share this information because it's not right for this level or or something like that.
00:07:35
Speaker
um You know, I'm really about being open and transparent about the issues that that we face as a team and as an organization. um Clearly, there's going to be topics here and there that you can't share with the entire department. But being able to work with my management team, um look at the issue at hand and kind of work together on a solution really enables all of us to buy into it. Um, everyone feels they're part of the solution ultimately. And I think by doing so, you come to a group consensus, right? Everyone has said, okay, we understand the issue. We understand it's a challenge that we need to face. Let's agree on something together. And now you did something as a team. You collaborated. Nobody was left out. And I think that builds that trust with, with your, with your team and your organization. It's it's funny. You just say trust because I was recapping.
00:08:21
Speaker
what you were saying and um I thought about, yeah, it this comes from ah a really legit place. Like I really care. I, you know, this is a soft skill. And so it's, I guess it's no question. And it's like, that's what I heard you saying. Like I really care. Other people can sense that that's authentic and that builds trust. And I think that's a really good answer to, to how do you get into the hearts and minds of others? It's not, it's, It's in in in a different sense. it's I really care. and i'm And I'm really going to work with
Transitioning from Manager to Leader
00:08:51
Speaker
these people. That's that's what I heard. And I think that's that's definitely scalable. you You and I both shared this about being first time managers on our first call. And I told you, I hope you you don't mind if I revisit this. But we both said we're we're both bulls in China shops. you know It was Central Command and Control, um the the brand new leader. um what yeah what What did you learn from that experience?
00:09:15
Speaker
ah Yeah, ah is you yo so talk about being humble. ah yeah you are Yeah, first first time you know early in ah in the management days, especially in in a sales operations role, i yeah I think a lot of times you look at it and you gotta say, I gotta come in here, I gotta whip this team in the shape, you know set the expectation of of how life's gonna be. um You know, SalesOps is a very process-driven role. It's a very repeatable role, and your human nature wants it to be a very black and white kind of problem-solving approach to everything. um It was about 15 years ago, Brian, I had i had a manager. We'd just been acquired by a company, and this was the first time i've I've met this new manager. And within 10 minutes of of me talking with her, she goes, you know what your problem is? And I'm taken aback by this, and I'm like, well within 10 minutes, I have a problem or already.
00:10:03
Speaker
She goes, you're too black and white. Everything that you want to do is black and white, black and white, black and white. And you my black and white nature, which I didn't know at the time, is like, how do I solve for this? What yes what book do I need to read? How do I fix this? She goes, there's no fix to this. This is this is who you are. You need to work more in the gray area. And I'm like, how do I work in the gray area? And it it doesn't always work that way. But you know I've kind of let that really stick in my mind, as you can see, for the last 15 years. um that you know really leadership's around consensus building. It's around collaboration. It's really understanding where the sales team is coming from. And what that's enabled me to do is kind of be a little bit more and empathetic to the situation. Even if I know what the answer is going to be when a rep or a sales leader comes to me asking for something, am I able to listen to them? Am I ever able able to hear their side of the story that maybe I didn't appreciate?
00:10:56
Speaker
And at the end of the day, even if I know what the answer already was going into the conversation, that sales leader, that sales rep, they feel heard. They feel appreciated. They had their chance to speak their case. The answer might not go their way. It might go their way, but it's allowed all of us to kind of hear the the entire 360 side of the story. And I really think that his has changed who I am and essentially how I've better operated in that proverbial
Navigating Leadership Gray Areas
00:11:20
Speaker
gray space. And that's, it's, it's such a great answer. And that is, um, I think that's exactly as as I, that I did the same as, as a first time manager. And if any of, any of my RFPs are listening to this, they're like, yup.
00:11:34
Speaker
ah You were, but it's it's what what you make me realize is is that notion of black and white, you were fortunate to have a leader who gave you that, right? That's really cool insight because I think when you're new in the role, it's ah there's ah a lot of stress and a lot of unknowns, right? so you're It's sort of like out of control. There's all these all these variables happening. So making it black and white brings control back and it occurs to me that you have to relax and roll a little bit because the the ah gray or you know I ah sort of stick with a life philosophy is it's it's it's rarely this or that. It's almost always the middle way and and the middle way is gray. it's It's mushy and it takes a little more time and it and it's right on most most of the time. It's neither this nor that when you're, I find now, and I don't know, maybe you do the same when I'm making a call going, is it this or that? There's probably a third way that might even be better
00:12:25
Speaker
It's really about appreciating, I think, the totality of the situation. you yeah I'm going to come up with a very black and white answer from my seat with my knowledge. I might not be thinking about how it's impacting the customer, the sales rep, the the matrix group that that's also involved. and And that's very, very important, I think, to consider and how I've changed as as a leader for sure. Yeah. and And I think I'm just going back to the you know this topic of influence and also harkening back to running a national account group. where you know we had field sales who called on the same customers and and it was it was responsibility without authority. and it was you know we We had to run these national accounts and and had to do it completely 100% with influence. and and I think that is such a ah ah core skill. um is it Is this teachable or is it only teachable by example? What do you think?
00:13:17
Speaker
Um, I don't know if teachable is the right word. Maybe it can be learned, right? yeah Um, so either by watching others who really excel in that space or committing yourself, you know, like kind of example I just gave, I committed myself. I'm like, I am going to solve for this. I'm very black and white with me. Um, but to, to acknowledge that I had that problem of needing to sit more in the middle in that, in that gray area. Um, you know I mentioned this earlier, I think when it's learned yeah and you see yourself being successful or more successful in that particular area, it's going to encourage you to do it more often. right You're like, hey, that worked for me. I'm going to try that technique again or I'm going i'm going to work that angle again.
00:13:56
Speaker
The more you see those results, your influence group grows a little bit larger, your image changes, you grow into being seen as someone that can kind of achieve any task that people know like, Hey, this person's got a lot on their plate, but they were able to to use people around them to get the job done and and to put together a good, um, you know, proposal to a customer or work on an internal project. And I really think it's something that, you know, while you can't probably pick up a book and say how to influence people more effectively, something you do have to practice, right? We we always say practice makes perfect. it's It's one of the biggest cliches out there. um But it's one of those things that really, if you can bring it into your your toolkit of how do you deal with people and how do you manage people, um the more that you do it, the more comfortable you feel doing it.
00:14:39
Speaker
Yeah, it, it, this is such a fun topic to me because it is, it is one of those great things. Like leadership sometimes can be great, but influence I think is, is even trickier. So, um, I heard a lot of other people say what what you've said to me that, um, a lot of frontline sales leaders were top reps, right. And as, as the top rep. They were the the lone wolf rockstar. And when they make this transition, that they kind of want to be friends with their team who are who are many of their peers. And you said at the same time, they have to inspect and challenge. And and it's sort of like, ah that's that's a tricky balance. ah what What's your thoughts about that?
00:15:17
Speaker
um I've certainly seen it a few times in in my career and and look, I get it. It's very understandable um why and how that happens. If I think back to my first management role, I was managing personal friends of mine as well. um So it's
Balancing Friendships and Leadership
00:15:31
Speaker
very relatable. um You think about why does it happen, right? you're You're put into a new role, maybe a role you haven't done before. You want to be like, you want the reaction of your team to be positive so your leadership say, hey, was this ah was this a risk putting this person in a role? No, their team's happy. um And some of the easiest ways to do that it's you know Tell your direct reports what they want to hear and that's all well and good until things start going a little sideways on you until Performance drops you're not achieving your goals um You know as I said earlier that the frontline sales management job is a very tough gig yeah, and there's various ways that you can motivate a team and
00:16:08
Speaker
It's tough because sometimes you've got to be the one that calls BS on the deal. You have to pressure those forecasting assumptions. You need to know when it's the right time to move that deal to close the loss that's been sitting in the pipe for for nine months in in ah in ah in the same stage. um But I'm a really strong believer with um your team acts the way that you act and and they follow what they see you doing. um Being buddy-buddy with the poor performer, we all know can actually hurt your team. um yeah when When your team sees weakness and that you're tolerating that weakness or not doing anything about it, but continuing to be their friend, that's not going to make those strong performers feel really good about what they're doing. um yeah know What can the manager do in that situation? Can you influence a little bit more via mentorship? Can you facilitate peer-to-peer coaching from another high performing rep on another team? Can you pull
00:17:00
Speaker
a rep that you may have put on a performance plan into an overachiever, they're the things that your team is going to see. And then that's how they're going to view you as a leader, how you act in certain situations, not necessarily are your friends with everybody. Right? Yeah, it's so yeah, it take several several insights away from my chat with you and and one maybe he was off target a little bit for what we we're talking about is this notion of gray though i think for anyone who's listening who is a leader especially a new leader or coaching new leaders like getting comfortable with gray getting comfortable with the the third way you know when there's when there's apparently only two options but i am thinking through like a way to.
Influence and Relationship Building
00:17:36
Speaker
to scale this notion of ah internal influences and and i guess what one is you can i have to identify your sphere right who who who's in it right cuz i don't i don't wanna go out there and influence everybody but you know who is it that i'm gonna rely on when all hell's breaking loose and i need support from other teams um and then makes you gotta make the investment right just like you would again in a sales call or anything else make the investment But the the other parts you were hitting on is at least my, my view of what you were saying is you have to really care and you have to care enough to talk about joint goals with those folks. Right. And that's, that's then what, that's what builds the trust, which gets to the hearts and mind, which is a thing that I was wrestling with before this call. Like how the hell did we do that? And I think to me, that's my recap of what I heard you saying.
00:18:22
Speaker
Yeah, and one thing I'll just add on there too, Brian, it's you know I think it's important that people know when you're trying to improve and ah in a particular space. um I am very open with my managers and my mentors saying, hey, this this has been historically a weakness of mine. Help me out, right? I want to continue to get better here. So when you see me falling down or doing this, uh, falling into this trap, remind me of it, call me out on it. It's only going to make me better. And I think that's been an important step too, is don't master some of these areas. It's important that you continually focus and continue to kind of get a little bit sharper each and every time. Yeah. And I think that allows others to lean into you, right? When you're pushing back.
00:19:03
Speaker
It's people people that are like moving away, but yeah, that's and
Openness and Feedback in Leadership
00:19:08
Speaker
it's funny. I interviewed Walt Zola who's the chief customer officer at Newman's own and he's ah he's a great leader and and he he said a lot of the the same things you did and about about getting the facts on the table and and sort of failing early and he talked about communicating both ways like communicating up to the board level. And, and he said, I get to the board as quickly as I can with bad news and just, and just lay it out. It's like easy to do it with good news. And, but you were talking too about systemically how that impacts the organization. He said he does the same with his team and his team now feels it's safe to come to him and go, Hey man, um fail and I'm I'm struggling here with something. So yeah, um we're, we're beginning to group these podcasts into, into categories. And this one sitting in the leadership role is, is yeah, I'm really looking forward to have it in there because I i think this is again, the soft stuff that's, that's really hard to get your arms around, but you're in my opinion, you're, you're nailing it and I'm learning from listening to you. So I appreciate that.
00:20:05
Speaker
Well, I love your comment there, too. I mean, when when you get to that point with your team where people are willing to talk around your challenges and and the problems that they're facing in an open in an open way, you you do feel really good that you got your team in a good spot. yeah Yeah, you have been super generous with your time and and your ideas and and i I view this show as kind of community building with all of us who do this really tough role. It's not just the frontline sales managers, it's your role as well. and And I think having this community to go to and you know I encourage anyone who's listening, ah Dan our producer has has kind of clumped
00:20:38
Speaker
ah These into leadership and methodology and you know sales automation and it's kind of cool if you're struggling with something I think you go listen to four of your peers like you Tim and say hey, how are other people doing this? So thanks for adding to that in a big way