Transcript
Speaker: This is Life Admin Life Hacks, a podcast that gives you techniques, tips and tools to tackle your life admin more efficiently, to save your time, your money and improve your household harmony.
Speaker: I'm Dinara Roberts, an operations manager, and I'm so thrilled that we've had positive feedback about our book from people living with ADHD. I'm Mia Northrop, a researcher and writer, is reassured by the fact that we can leverage strengths in our personality, character and neurodiversity in how we approach life admin. In this episode, we interviewed clinical psychologist Olivia Clayton about strategies and tools to help adults with ADHD stay organized.
Speaker: Before we leap into today's topic, we're so excited to reveal an offering we've been dreaming about for a very long time. Listeners, we're thrilled to let you know first about the launch of our new online course, Life Admin Foundations. Now you can take your learning to the next level
Speaker: with our immersive online short course that helps you set up the game -changing life admin tools and processes to drop your mental load. Yeah, the word we hear most often when it comes to life admin is overwhelming. And we know that setting up the right tools and systems makes the biggest impact in getting it under control. So this course provides you with a step -by -step learning experience that has been developed for an international audience. The course helps you set up foundational digital and organizational tools
Speaker: such as a shared digital calendar and a dedicated life admin email address, to -do lists, reference lists, checklists, cloud storage for essential files, a password manager, time management and scheduling, and, crucially, for those in a relationship
Speaker: reducing and sharing the mental load. The Life Admins Foundation course is the perfect choice for you if you learn best by doing with a combination of video modules, practical activities, links to our recommended apps and websites and downloadable templates and quizzes.
Speaker: So you're actively applying the concepts and strategies to your own life admin challenges. The course content drops once a week over six weeks to keep you focused at a sustainable pace. It's a structured learning path with clear milestones, keeping you on track and accountable to your goals.
Speaker: So if you're ready to take the next step, transform your life admin and reclaim your headspace, enroll now at life admin, lifehax .com. Over the years, we've had many listeners and readers of our book, Life Admin Hacks request us to do a deep dive on organizational techniques for people with ADHD so they can help themselves or help their loved ones. Both Diana and I have family members who are neurodiverse and it'd be hard pressed to find a household out there that doesn't include someone
Speaker: who has challenges with attention and concentration. So in this episode, we'll talk about how ADHD may impact someone's ability to organize their life admin, what the common challenges are when it comes to organizing their daily lives, and strategies and tools to help people with ADHD stay organized.
Speaker: Olivia Clayton is a clinical psychologist who supports many adults with ADHD as part of her private practice work. She's the founder of Collected Minds, a multidisciplinary service which seeks to provide high quality, timely online psychology and mental health support to people in areas across Australia. Olivia started her career at the Parenting Research Center, which is responsible for the well -known website, Raising Children Network. I think I lived on that website when my kids were little.
Speaker: As a psychologist, she's worked with adult patients in acute hospital settings, asylum seekers, children and their parents with intellectual disability, parents seeking strategies to support their children's development and behaviour. And in recent years, she's worked predominantly with adults using evidence -based approaches to support them with grief, anxiety, depression, stress, trauma, and adjustment challenges. Olivia, thanks so much for coming on the show today. Oh, thanks, Diana. It's good to be here.
Speaker: Many of our listeners would be aware that ADHD stands for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. But can you tell us what ADHD means and what the symptoms are? I guess what goes without saying, but it still needs to be said, is that a person with ADHD is one person with ADHD. So for us being careful not to make assumptions about the experience of a person with ADHD is important.
Speaker: because it can affect individuals differently and often it looks very different in different people. You know, some people cope well and some people need more support and this can vary as life throws up different challenges. So what ADHD doesn't mean is it doesn't mean you're lazy or aren't trying. ADHD is what's called a neurodevelopmental disorder, which in layperson's terms means you think differently to other people.
Speaker: It's not a mental health issue by itself, hence we refer to it as neurodiversity. And sometimes people say, you know, the ADHD brain can do great things outside the box and the neurotypical brain can do great things inside the box. And it's really important for people with ADHD to realize the positives of it.
Speaker: whilst also being very clear that the troubles it might cause can be really hard. But there are certainly common strengths in ADHD and they're related to the motivation and interest in the individual. You know, you land in the right work environment for you,
Speaker: perhaps one that provides a bit of adrenaline because the pressure helps you focus and feel alive. That means you know you might be highly effective working in say an emergency department or a high -pressure restaurant kitchen or even be the CEO of a company doing momentous things if you like.
Speaker: So for adults with ADHD, what does it look like? Well, they've likely had the classic ADHD symptoms as a child, like having attentional difficulties in class or having difficulty sitting still. And these things have probably been apparent since before age 12. But ADHD can and is often diagnosed now in adulthood for the first time.
Speaker: And what we see in terms of adults' needs is a bit different and their presentation can be a bit different. What we would say adult ADHD covers is, of course, what we might have as the typical image in our mind. So can be fidgety, can maybe have trouble sitting still and perhaps speaks out of turn. But for a lot of adults, they've learnt the social norms and they've learnt some strategies to cope.
Speaker: And now it's difficulty with things like inability to relax the mind, sleeping, emotional regulation, finding motivation to do necessary life things that are frankly boring. Hello, life action. Yeah.
Speaker: And that's why they've sought out perhaps your book or podcast, right? And along with that frustration in seemingly not being able to do life admin tasks, often there's a real lack of self -compassion.
Speaker: and higher levels of frustration with their own inattention or memory. A big one, a big symptom per se is blindness to time. Also maybe perfectionism and certainly procrastination. And often when it comes to someone with ADHD seeking to see a psychologist, it's because there's an underlying sense of failure, you know, perpetuated by always feeling like they're trying to fit in a world that's just not designed for them.
Speaker: and being judged or criticized by others has maybe taken its toll. Yeah, you've covered a lot of territory there and I imagine there's lots of listeners listening to this, you know, you're reeling off how it can present thinking, oh my, this could be me or this sounds like someone I know. And so you've mentioned that, you know, more and more adults are being diagnosed with it for the first time. What's the best way to secure a diagnosis as an adult?
Speaker: Yeah. Important to say is that you're only going to receive a diagnosis if these difficulties that you're having are actually interfering or causing problems with important things in your life, like relationships, work, daily life, admin, or parenting. And you will need to have many examples of inattention or
Speaker: hyperactivity and impulsivity to get a diagnosis. And it's also probably worth flagging that for some people, you know, diagnosis in general for anything is really important. It can be helpful and it can be validating.
Speaker: and it can make sometimes a difficult childhood make sense. And for others, though, it's not always so helpful. It could be, I guess, seen as a label when actually we are all individuals after all. For a high number of people with ADHD, however, what we do know is that medication is an incredibly important element of treatment.
Speaker: So you do need an assessment and a diagnosis to get access to the medication. That might be a reason you seek diagnosis. To get prescribed ADHD medication, you need to be assessed by a psychiatrist. You can't just get it from your GP.
Speaker: and psychologists don't prescribe. So after an initial psychiatrist assessment, usually two or three sessions with a psychiatrist, they'll do the initial script and then a GP with a particular license can do the repeats and ongoing management of the medication.
Speaker: So in our practice, for example, we'll often have clients start working with our GP and one of our psychologists or a mental health social worker around whatever difficulties they are having whilst getting the psychiatrist assessment and medication underway. Oh, wow. So go to your GP is I guess your first portal call as with everything else, but looking for a referral for a psychiatrist is sort of the way into the system is what you're saying, Olivia.
Speaker: Yeah, it's a very valuable part of your treatment is trying different medications. And it can be hard though to find a psychiatrist who does ADHD assessment without a long wait list, right? But they are out there. And with more psychiatrists practicing by telehealth now too, that helps. And we've certainly found with our clinic,
Speaker: being telehealth only now ourselves, we're able to serve our waitlist better. So we'll have a number of psychiatrists we refer out to and generally people will get in within a month or two.
Speaker: As Mia mentioned, we've had quite a few people reach to us both doing this episode, which is I guess why this episode came to be about the interest in ADHD and life admin. But we've also had lots of feedback from people reading our book life admin hacks and saying they have ADHD and they found the book particularly helpful. So be interested to know why you think people with ADHD are interested in life admin hacks and some of the approaches we have in our book.
Speaker: Yes. I mean, as I read your book, I thought about ADHD. I think people with ADHD might seek out your book in your podcast and your material because they are highly frustrated with their own inattention, procrastination, avoidance of life admin, or they feel the pressure of the world and their family to do better and they seek out your book for ways to manage better.
Speaker: Yeah, they're looking for really practical strategies that are going to work for them. And as you said, you know, it presents differently for different people. And so they just, you know, open their toolkit and find, okay, are there some strategies or tactics here that will work for me? Yeah, I guess at least, you know, there are some common challenges that adults with ADHD face when it comes to organizing their daily lives. Like how does it impact sort of the day to day flow?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I think motivation is a key concept here in ADHD. So people with ADHD will often excel at things because they're interested in them or there's a time pressure, some sort of adrenaline to run with, like a bill is due or there's a deadline or there's a guest coming over. So let's get the house.
Speaker: in order. So let it be said that not all people with ADHD will struggle with personal and household administration because actually they might actually have an interest in it or a helpful time pressure and they'll get it done.
Speaker: However, a classic complaint from clients will be, I neglect bills, I am no good at paperwork, I avoid, I avoid, I avoid. And then it drives my partner insane because I am actually able to do things like
Speaker: pull apart and put back together an entire car engine just by training myself using YouTube clips. And so I guess a psychologist would say, you know, well, that's because you're highly motivated to do this. It's interesting to you. And there's a beauty in your ability to do that, you know, and then in your relationship with your partner or your spouse, can you find some acceptance there and use the strength there and work as a team?
Speaker: and be very careful about who's responsible for what and the mental load. And so what advice do you give to clients who come to you with those kind of complaints? What things can they actually do to develop and improve their sort of organizational skills and to work on that motivation side of things, Olivia?
Speaker: Yeah, well, common challenges that people tell me about can be anything and everything, right? From, you know, I can never find my car keys, my wallet, my sunglasses, always late for things, or I get really stressed because I'm super careful about being late because I've had such bad experiences with that in the past.
Speaker: There's often a real impulsivity around finances, making some decisions there that haven't gone so well, or perhaps just loathing or procrastinating on sitting down to work out finances. A big one is starting multiple projects that never get finished, and then procrastination. That's the result of feeling overwhelmed by a task, so you put it off, and sometimes underestimating how long a task will take contributes to that.
Speaker: One of the leaders in the field of ADHD, Russell Barkley, calls this blindness to time. The further out the event or the task or the obligation lies, then he would say the less capable you are of dealing with it. And many people have figured out how to manage some of this stuff themselves.
Speaker: You know, like I might ask a client, so have you ever had trouble finding your keys or your sunglasses and people will say, yeah, well, I used to, but when that was when I was younger, you know, now I've found a strategy. Like I always put my keys in the same spot now. So ultimately, it is about finding the right strategy for you for whatever the organizational task is at hand.
Speaker: Yeah. Can you talk through some other specific strategies that, you know, other clients have mentioned to you or that you're aware of that help people with ADHD stay organized? Yeah, there are particular strategies and I'll talk about them. But I want to say foremost, a lot of gain can be made by focusing on your own self -compassion, firstly, and working to your strengths. And I would encourage people not to roll their eyes at this.
Speaker: So, you know, we have been brought up in a society where to be average is considered a negative. And so we find ways to puff ourselves up and or whip ourselves into shape and self -criticism is used by many as a key motivator for this.
Speaker: you know, silently calling yourself an idiot, a loser or cursing at yourself to get you to come on. Speaking really harshly to yourself, often much more harshly than you would ever speak to someone that you cared about. This can be really problematic unto itself and is really common in people with ADHD.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's common for a lot of our listeners generally. One of the questions we get is sort of, you know, they worry that the lack of organizational motivation around this stuff is like a character flaw. And they'll talk about it, you know, is there is a certain personality type or is it like, you know, a lack of character or they and they, yeah, we
Speaker: really do encourage people to come at this with self -compassion, especially life at me, because we know it is actually boring. It's hard to get super motivated about it. You do know that once things are humming, it's actually going to pay forward in terms of you're going to save time on things, you can have more peace of mind, you're probably going to save money. But it is actually hard to get going and build that momentum. And it's not until you taste some of that success that you're like, yeah, this is actually really worthwhile getting my act together in this way.
Speaker: That affects everybody, but good to know that people with ADHD might be, self -criticism might be a higher octave. Yeah. And, you know, important to know that self -compassion isn't then about being particular, you know, having a lot of self -pity or conversely just being very positive. You know, self -compassion is about embracing your own humanness and using acceptance in hard times.
Speaker: about the fact that you are fallible and we all are. So noticing that harsh inner critic and responding to a very human self statement like, oh, you idiot, which is okay to have, but tuning into it in hard times when you need and perhaps applying a more soothing statement to yourself like, whoa, this is a moment of suffering. It's hard, tread carefully. You must be kind to yourself here.
Speaker: There's a great 20 -minute TED Talk by Kristin Neff that's worth watching or listening to. It's called The Space Between Self -Esteem and Self -Compassion. She is somewhat of the world guru in self -compassion and she's written a number of books. Yeah, we'll link to that on the show notes. Thanks, Olivia.
Speaker: In addition to understanding yourself and self -compassion and all that comes with that and the practice of that, which takes time to retrain the brain, actually, we know that diet and exercise are really important. That's useful to just say, you know, so asking yourself whether these areas need some improvement and finding even just small ways to make some changes there can be key to your brain power and your ability to organize your self prioritized tasks.
Speaker: and get a particular task done. There are lifestyle changes that you can make that help with that, like having a good sleep routine, a healthy diet that's high in omega -3 fatty acids, and regular exercise has been shown to help.
Speaker: Many adults will find rigorous morning exercise routine, gives them a few hours where their concentration to a task is better. Okay. That's good to know that you can cut it from like a physical sense to sort of get your, at least get your brain primed. Yeah. And in terms of particular strategies for inattention and procrastination,
Speaker: and time blindness and how to get things done but just need to get done. There are a wealth of ideas and great advice out there designed primarily by people with ADHD themselves who are getting that information out really well. There's a lot of stuff on YouTube and people will find their own stuff. A great favorite is Jessica McCabe's how to ADHD YouTube channel and she'll talk about all these
Speaker: sorts of topics that relate to ADHD and then get really specific to help you try and find ideas and strategies that might work for you to add to your toolkit of stuff that you've already got working for you. And you'll find helpful tips everywhere like reminders on your phone, specific widgets that might appear on the home screen rather than you having to remember to tap on the app and go into the app.
Speaker: Setting up your home so that it's got visual cues around, people will label stuff around their home if they want to, or other people will find that, you know, the heinous idea. And so we'll need to do something else. But setting it, finding your ways to set up organizational success for yourself is pretty key. And again, I think that's where people have been drawn to your book and have
Speaker: being able to pull out bits and pieces and go, whoa, yeah, that's going to work for me. This is really interesting. Obviously, it's different strategies, different tactics, different tools work for different people. And I think that probably also applies to people without ADHD. You need to find the thing that works for you. But is there anything that adults with ADHD can do to develop and improve their organizational skills overall?
Speaker: Overall, I think it's about understanding yourself and your needs and asking to get your needs met too. So at work, for example, you might need some things like your desk to be placed near a wall or to wear headphones or having regular breaks might be important. A lot of adults with ADHD and teenagers too will find things like the Pomodoro technique helpful.
Speaker: So working in blocks of time and having work broken into intervals. And also finding a job that is best suited to your skill set.
Speaker: the music industry, you know, the ski slopes, like whatever hospitality, there's a website and a magazine called Attitude, which is really great in talking about this sort of stuff too, that's Attitude, a double D Attitude. Because getting distracted and trouble focusing is really common in ADHD. And when it comes to organizational skills, sometimes this just sort of opens up a major motivational
Speaker: chasm for people and people do need support sometimes. Yeah. And so you mentioned distractions there. How can people with ADHD manage those distractions and prioritise tasks when they're trying to organise their lives?
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's about sometimes not biting off more than you can chew and setting yourself up for success from the beginning where you can. Learning about what you need to do. There are apps out which do crazy things using AI, I think, which do things like you put in a task and then it will break down the steps of the task for you and put them in order and you can follow that. That sounds amazing. Yeah.
Speaker: Again, you know, some people will love that. Other people won't love that at all. But there's stuff out there now, thanks to technology, which can be really helpful with keeping your two tasks and managing distractions in that way and prioritising things.
Speaker: And I guess the other thing to know about is that there, you know, there can be other sensitivities that come along with ADHD sometimes, which contribute to your distractibility, whether it be, you know, sensitivity to the environment around you, because there's perhaps some comorbid or co -occurring things going on as well, you know, really nutting that out with a psychologist or a psychiatrist is important.
Speaker: Well, you mentioned then that there's other conditions or disorders, and I think we mentioned that at the beginning of the conversation too. So what other conditions or disorders can co -occur with ADHD and make organization even more challenging? Yeah. ADHD often co -occurs with ASD, so Autism Spectrum Disorder, and anxiety. And there can be sometimes a trauma background that's contributing to difficulties, which is important for psychologists
Speaker: to work with and sometimes a history of some learning difficulties as well, you know, not always. And so there's a big overlapping characteristics between ADHD, ASD and anxiety and it's perhaps not
Speaker: necessarily important to know what doing what, like what's my ADHD here versus my ASD versus anxiety. But certainly what's important in helping someone or helping yourself with ADHD is getting clear about, well, what am I actually struggling with and then see what support do I need or can I get some support to problem solve around that.
Speaker: So I imagine there's people who are listening and they're sort of, you know, they're on this journey to improve their organizational skills. What tips or advice would you offer them? We're just getting started.
Speaker: Good question. I would say that getting started on this journey and perhaps considering having ADHD and wanting to find ways to better manage your organizational skills is that it is really important to not use your ADHD as an excuse for why you can't do things. So ADHD can present significant challenges and obstacles that might require understanding and accommodations from others.
Speaker: as well as your own self -compassion.
Speaker: However, it is important for your individual sense of self and personal growth to ensure you're careful not to use it as an excuse or a justification for why you couldn't meet an expectation or fulfill an obligation that you do need to do. You know, you can acknowledge it and you can understand it and at the same time take responsibility by seeking treatment, support you need or a focus or an attitude to work on self -improvement.
Speaker: I think that's a big one. I've had coaching clients in the past where they've recently had a diagnosis or they suspect that they might have ADHD. And for some of them, it's like, okay, this is great. Now I know how to come at this. Am I going to think differently about what I need? And others are kind of like, oh yeah, I might have it. But, you know, they don't, not necessarily a willingness to take it into consideration. They kind of
Speaker: dismiss it. And I'm like, well, this could be having a significant impact. You know, what you've been talking about requires a lot of sort of self -awareness and a lot of introspection and reflection. It can be really hard. Yes. You come to terms with what you have to come to terms with, but also having the perspective to see yourself with some perspective and to realize, okay, this is actually what's going on for me. And this is what I think I actually need.
Speaker: Yes, and not everyone has been brought up with role modelling from their parents in actually thinking about themselves or thinking about their thinking and why they do things. So I would say that it's incredibly important too, where you can, to get your friends and family on board with understanding ADHD too. That's a really important point, Olivia. So what could our listeners do if they have a loved one or a partner?
Speaker: that has ADHD, how can they support them in improving their organisational skills? Yeah. Learn about ADHD, you know, education around the reality of what life is like for your loved one, not assuming it's laziness. Compassion for them and empathy is going to be key. I wonder if it would be helpful sometimes for family members to join in on a psychologist session.
Speaker: or to really get to know your individual loved one and their experience of ADHD. So essentially, you can be a bit of a coach for your person or a motivational aide in some way, only if you're asked to be, of course. Yes, that needs to be a willing partnership there.
Speaker: Thank you for going through that. So I guess in summary, I'm thinking about the various strategies you've suggested. So you've talked about, you know, trying out different tactics. There's a wide range in the toolkit, seeing what works for you, give things a go, see if they prove beneficial.
Speaker: really focusing on baby steps and that you build on things, you know, you're chunking down tasks, you're trying new things that you don't expect, you know, overnight change quickly, that it's going to be a lot of a sort of experimentation and try new things in small ways. You've talked about, you know, you mentioned people losing their keys. I imagine people lose their wallets or can't find their phone.
Speaker: And there's that idea of having like a permanent place, like a little launch pad zone where you might put some of those things that you need frequently. I think you mentioned also sort of setting up your environment, making things visible and accessible, whether you might have labels on things. So you're supporting people in a visual sense in their environment to find things. You talked about notifications, alerts, things on your phone, setting up your phone widgets so that the things you need frequently
Speaker: are up front and centre. Anything else come to mind of sort of those practical steps that people can take? I guess how useful I've heard from so many people. It has been to connect with others online, whether it be in a more passive way by listening to and watching YouTube.
Speaker: clips or joining forums, you know, which can be difficult to sometimes, but learning, sharing and learning with others because the research is somewhat lacking in this area for a long time. Research focused on childhood and particularly boys behavior. And the research world is catching up with, with actually, you know, practical forward thinking ways of how as an adult,
Speaker: and adult women in particular can actually harness their strengths and find strategies and ways of coping well. Yeah, I'm glad to hear that because for a lot of people, if you think about ADHD and you're thinking of hyperactive boys, but it's impacting all sorts of people and all sorts of ways. So I'm glad to hear the research and it's coming
Speaker: around to supporting people with, as you said, finding their other strengths and applying their other abilities. Yeah, and some of the stuff that is coming out is more about this inability to relax the mind or for women in particular, sometimes
Speaker: an excessive focus or an excessive rumination after social events or after interactions with others. You know, did I say the right thing? Do I speak out of turn? Doesn't everyone do that all the time? Yeah. And that's, that's an important point, I guess to make, but perhaps for some people with ADHD, it's, it's even more, more pronounced because it's been a lifelong concern or worry that I'm going to, I'm going to do it wrong again.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, definite distinction. So you've heard lots of people in your practice with ADHD who have had these successes. What have you seen in terms of what they've put in place and how it impacts them? So many success stories. I think success is about
Speaker: finding your sense of self -worth, understanding perhaps underlying trauma and perpetuated sense of failure, finding ways to be coping and working to accept yourself and self -compassion because the ADHD brain is there. It doesn't go away. So finding ways to live with it and in addition to that, finding the right medication for you can be really helpful.
Speaker: The other thing that some clients have done, in addition to seeing a psychologist, they've gone off to see an ADHD coach. So this is a bit of a new thing and I think it's a booming industry, I assume it is, and you can work out, you can get some support there to help work out your strategies with your ADHD coach. And then clients might often come back to their psychologists to work around the issues. There's still perhaps a need to be aware and normalise and understand how you've been affected by feeling
Speaker: you know, like you're constantly a square peg trying to fit in a round hole. That's important. I think that's a great way for us to finish up today's episode to know that there are practical strategies out there. I think one of the things that I would also like to say, and we actually did recently did a podcast episode on it, is it is important to know yourself and to then decide what's really important to you and to think about what areas of life admin you really have to do or are important to you and focus on strategies for those rather than thinking you have to be perfect
Speaker: at everything to really embrace your strengths and use those to focus on the things that are really important for you in your season of life. So, Olivia, thanks so much for sharing your experience and ideas with us today. It was such a pleasure. Where can our listeners find you if they want to know more about your work?
Speaker: Yes, my practice is called Collected Minds, and that's the website, collectedminds .com .au. And we have a number of great psychologists, mental health social worker, GP on our team as well, who love working with people with ADHD. So you can find our website there. Thanks for listening. Show notes for this episode are available at lifeadminlifehacks .com. And if you're a fan,
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