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Free Weekly Episode - Lionel Messi Vs Diego Maradona GOAT Debate, Lautaro Martinez & Romelu Lukaku's World Cup Struggles, Italy & Germany Historic World Cup Flops & Much More (Ep. 279)
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From latest on Juventus scandal, Romelu Lukaku's horror World Cup, Lautaro Martinez struggles in the same, Italy and Germany's historic flops two tournaments in a row, as well as Lionel Messi vs Diego Maradona GOAT debate, Kylian Mbappe stealing headlines despite Olivier Giroud writing history with France to greatest ever Italy World Cup squad and much more as Carlo Garganese and Nima Tavallaey discuss it all.
Every Monday episode of The Italian Football Podcast is free for all. To listen to all full episodes of The Italian Football Podcast, go to Patreon.com/TIFP to become a Patron for only $2.99 USD per month (excluding VAT).
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and World Cup Focus
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian Football Podcast. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Italian Football Podcast. I'm Kylo Garganese joined as always by Nima Tavale. This is our free weekly Monday show. Today we're going to be focusing quite a lot on the World Cup. There's a lot of big talking points we're going to go
World Cup Quarterfinals Teams
00:00:26
Speaker
through. We're recording this on Monday.
00:00:28
Speaker
before the two Monday games, so currently there are four teams that have already qualified for the quarterfinals of the World Cup. That's Holland, who beat the USA, Argentina, who beat Australia, France, who beat Poland, and England, who beat Senegal. We're also going to talk a little bit about the games before that at the end of the first group stage because we had
00:00:55
Speaker
Some some big casualties and Belgium in particular and Germany and so we're gonna talk a little bit about them too Okay, right. Let's get into it
Juventus Scandal Update
00:01:08
Speaker
Right, before we start off in the World Cup, on Thursday's show, we did a big deep dive on this big scandal that's broken out in Serie A at Juventus. So if you want to listen to that in depth, become a patron on patreon.com slash TIFP. And we did a big one hour show where we basically
00:01:33
Speaker
answered every single question related to the case. So there's not too much to say today, but just before we get into the World Cup stuff, NIMA, has there been any updates in this Juventus scandal?
00:01:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we know that they're moving towards indictment of the people that we mentioned on Thursday. There's been more leaks in terms of the recorded wiring of the conversation on phone. That's leaked out, but nothing really substantial, if I'm perfectly honest, has happened since Thursday.
00:02:15
Speaker
in terms of the legal implications. We were yet to see when the date is set for the hearing. I've not seen it. I mean, we're recording this, as I said, on Monday at 2pm CET. I've yet to see when there will be a court date, if there will be a court date.
00:02:35
Speaker
But yeah, no, I'm sure that will come out in the next day or so and then we'll proceed from then on. But what we have seen is that Juventus are moving on, they're trying to kind of pick up the pieces and see what they're going to do and move on from this. And now that the dust has settled a little bit and the initial shock has worn off.
00:03:02
Speaker
Yeah, and we should find out more should we in the next few days because it was it was they said at first they said five days didn't they before? Yeah, no, it was within the it was they said within five days to decide whether to dismiss the case or indict and as I said by it's 2pm CET on a Monday and I'm yet to see anything official on that but I'm sure we'll find out soon.
00:03:26
Speaker
Right,
Belgium and Germany's Group Stage Exit
00:03:27
Speaker
okay. Okay, well, let's move on to the World Cup now then, because there's a lot of really interesting talking points. First of all, I want to look at Belgium and Germany, who are both eliminated from the group stages. I want to start with Belgium, because so many so-called experts were predicting them to get to the semi-final this tournament, which I thought was something of a joke at first, but they were actually dead serious.
00:03:52
Speaker
For me, I was very, very confident from the start, and I said that I thought they were going to go out in the group stages. And that is what ended up happening. But obviously, the headlines were all about, and it's as related to Seria, all about Romelu Lukaku, who I don't think I've ever seen again, where a player has missed so many.
00:04:17
Speaker
open goals. I mean, they were real sitters. They weren't half chances. They were, some of them, unmissable chances, pretty much. I've never seen it. It was just so Lukaku. It had to happen to him. And the poor guy has been absolutely slaughtered since then, including in the Ghanaian parliament, which has become like
00:04:39
Speaker
That's been so funny. The Meguiar and Lukaku banter when they're talking about the budget is so funny. Yeah, it is hilarious.
Debate on Lukaku's Legacy
00:04:50
Speaker
It is hilarious. But, you know, he I mean, I'd like to look at how how two parts to this. First of all, how does Romelu Lukaku's latest, you know, performance affect his legacy? Because for me,
00:05:08
Speaker
You look at his numbers as a whole and he's the top scorer in the history of the Belgian national team. 68 goals in 104 games. He's got over 300 career goals for club and country. I mean these are absolutely incredible numbers. There's very few players really in the history of the game that have hit over 300 career goals and he's obviously still 29 so he could still add to that.
00:05:32
Speaker
but on the very highest level for club and country he's always fallen short and then for club level we know we've spoken about it in depth you know he failed at Man United he failed at Chelsea twice brilliant for Everton brilliant for Inter under Conte but you know obviously we're talking about a Serie A level now but for Belgium
00:05:52
Speaker
You know, incredible in qualifying and friendlies, but his performance at major tournaments has been, you know, if we look at them as a whole, you know, not bad, but decent at best, certainly not that of a great player. And he's played at five major tournaments for Belgium.
00:06:09
Speaker
And he scored one goal at the World Cup 2014. He scored one goal, scored in one game at Euro 2016 versus Ireland. He scored four in the 2018 World Cup, they were all in the group stages. He scored four in Euro 2020, but three in the group stages and then just a penalty versus Italy. And then obviously
Impact of Lukaku's Performance on Inter Milan
00:06:31
Speaker
Euro 2022 was a complete disaster for him.
00:06:36
Speaker
And he's had some really high profile clangers that have cost Belgium in key games during these tournaments. He missed two absolute sitters against Italy at both Euro 2016 and 2020. And then obviously the sitters, the open goals, I mean, virtual open goals the other night. I mean, is this just kind of like, does this just kind of sum up the story of Lukaku's career?
00:07:03
Speaker
I don't think it sums up his career. I think it sums up the curse of the inter-striker in this World Cup. Lautaro Martinez has not had exactly a lucky start to this tournament either. Even though those situations are very, very different, focusing on Lukaku, we know that
00:07:25
Speaker
from his career previously that he is the kind of player that needs five, six games before he hits the ground running and then he scores in clusters. Then he goes on these five, six, seven, eight game runs where he scores one, two goals every single game. In a fickle tournament like the World Cup, where it's very short, it's only seven games between the first group stage game and the final, you don't really have that much room to maneuver.
00:07:49
Speaker
And I think Lukaku, given where Belgium was, he almost became like a symbol of that Belgium side, a little bit out of form, a little bit past their best, a little bit not in form, all of that at once. And they were sitters, there's no doubt about it. But I mean, same thing with Lautaro, I think, in the sense that, I mean, just, you know, the two goals against Saudi Arabia taking offer offside.
00:08:15
Speaker
I mean, just think about it. He has, you know, he got into that tournament. Those goals would have been, you know, had they been on side, you know, his confidence levels are flying. They don't lose that first game. He doesn't, you know, get into it, start second guessing himself. I think a lot of the times in these short tournaments, it's about it's those tiny, tiny little details that decide it. And that's also true about Romelu Lukaku. I don't think it affects his legacy.
00:08:43
Speaker
at the World Cup or for Belgium at all. I mean, you know, he's shown over the years who he is, but I think it does show that his generation in Belgium, they're over now. It's finished. It's time for Belgium to find new players and new talents to build around. And maybe, you know, it's a shame for Lukaku that he never really
00:09:13
Speaker
got that like bullseye moment internationally. I mean, if we're perfectly honest, he's kind of lacked that in his career as well, except for those two years at Inter, where he won Escoretto. Yeah, that's the point I'm making. I just feel like, you know, and we know that Lukaku's big game record is
00:09:35
Speaker
It's abysmal, if let's be honest, throughout his whole career. I mean, I just think, again, this game, like I said, I think it sums up his career when it really matters in the very biggest moments, the biggest games. Lukaku, the pressure gets to him. He's just not very strong mentally. We've seen throughout his career that he can't handle criticism very well. He can't handle disappointment. When things are going with him, that's great. When he's feeling loved,
00:10:04
Speaker
when obviously Conte, there was a great bromance there. When he feels he's important, that's great. But when the going gets tough and the chips are down,
00:10:14
Speaker
He can't handle it. He can't handle the pressure. And when they needed him, he completely folded in this game. And yes, obviously, his injury problems, he wasn't physically fit. And I do realize also that having him on the field did make a difference in terms of a lot of these chances came about through Lukaku being on the pitch. They just didn't have anyone there, didn't have a presence at all. So that did help. At the end of the day, he didn't put them away, didn't put the chances away. So kind of pointless, really.
00:10:43
Speaker
But how will it affect Inter? Will he be mentally broken by this? Can Inter pick him up? I don't think he'll be mentally broken by this at all.
00:10:55
Speaker
I think he was rushing to get, you know, this was a special season. This was going to be his redemption season. It's been anything but so far. It's been actually an unmitigated disaster, for perfectly honest, for Inter, and to some extent also for Belgium. But I don't think it'll break him mentally. I think if anything, it'll probably
00:11:15
Speaker
stress him to perform even better, return back into form even more after Christmas, which I'm a little bit worried about. I'm worried that he might overwork himself. I think the most important thing Simoning Zaghi can do is to help him relax. That's the point I'm making. Does Lukaku play better when he is relaxed, when he's feeling comfortable, when he's under pressure, and when he's under pressure, this is what happens. He plays badly.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah, no, he tenses up and to me it's almost like he wants to show so everyone wrong so badly that he almost overworks everything and just tenses up and instead of when he's a relaxed, calm, happy, I think at Inter he is so loved.
00:12:00
Speaker
that's the difference. You saw when he came back just before he injured himself, the standing of Asians, the goals in the Champions League, everybody will look so happy to see him. Finally, Big Rom is back. I think he is incredibly loved and supported, and he needs to be in an environment where he feels that kind of support, and he is that, Arinta. Simoni Nzagi absolutely adores him and believes in him and wants to work on him.
00:12:30
Speaker
I think that I actually think this could almost become a little bit like fuel for him to kind of kickstart everything in January, assuming he doesn't injure himself again. But I mean, that's a great unknown because is he
00:12:49
Speaker
given that he's played at this level since he was 16 years old and he's 30 soon, pushing 30, is it just a case that maybe he needs to start treating his body in a different way in order to maintain longevity if that's what he's after?
00:13:09
Speaker
because the human body is still made of, no matter how a human being is fantastic physically and can do fantastic things physically, they're still made of flesh and bone. They're still humans. If you push your body for 14, 15 years at that highest level,
00:13:25
Speaker
at some point you might burn yourself out. So I think now with him it's about training him and keeping him fit intelligently. I think he even more and more than ever now has to think about how he trains, how he eats, how he takes care of himself off the pitch in order to avoid the kind of crash decline that we kind of to some extent have already seen in the last 15 months.
00:13:50
Speaker
ever since he ever since he made that move to Chelsea, really. Yeah, for sure. Form of fitness, he has plummeted and the number of injuries, he missed more games in the first before Christmas, but he missed more games
00:14:06
Speaker
through injury before Christmas, in his first season back at Chelsea, so 2021, 22, then he missed in the entire eight years since. And obviously, since then, the injuries have just kept coming, we've seen within this season, he's only played 256 minutes of football. And he went into that World Cup being so unfair, that obviously that contributes to
00:14:30
Speaker
to all those misses the other night.
Germany's Group Stage Struggles
00:14:34
Speaker
Another big theme that have gone out is Germany, who went out of the group stages after another dismal performance. What I wanted to discuss with Germany is that I think there's definitely a
00:14:50
Speaker
a comparison to be made with Italy because these are Europe's two best football nations in the history of the game. Now I've lost the stat and I did research this the other day but if you go back to
00:15:09
Speaker
the very first World Cup in 1930. But if you go all through every single World Cup since then, have a look at who made the World Cup final in each year. Italy or Germany are in the final, in the majority of a final had either Italy or Germany in.
00:15:26
Speaker
you know 1934 Italy 1938 Italy 1954 Germany West Germany then 1966 West Germany 1970 Italy 1974 West Germany 1982 Italy and West Germany 1986 West Germany 1990 West Germany 1994 Italy 2002 Germany 2006 Italy
00:15:54
Speaker
14 West Germany, so almost virtually every single year almost only a handful of World Cup finals since since the World Cup started 92 years ago has always had an interesting German and if you look at the European Championship as well, I think Germany the most successful and you know, it's literally one to you know, it's unbelievable the dominance of these two nations yet, we're now looking at the last two World Cups where Italy have failed to qualify.
00:16:22
Speaker
Germany have gone out embarrassingly in the group stages of both. Then if you take Germany's European Championship performance as well, they've only got to the last 16 of the euros. I mean, obviously, Italy won the euros in between, and that stayed with them forever. But are we seeing a shift, or is it just something cyclical?
00:16:50
Speaker
Like I said, throughout history, we've only ever known Germany and Italy being the dominant footballing nations in Europe, and now they're both failing so badly. I think it will never, I don't think we'll ever see that kind of dominance in football again. I mean, what is it, 14 out of 18 World Cup finalists?
00:17:10
Speaker
I might have that stat wrong, but it's not far off. It's something like that. It's insane. You just listed it all out. That's insane. I don't think we're ever going to see that kind of dominance because I think the level of competition overall
00:17:26
Speaker
has improved. I mean, we look at Spain's golden age when they won three tournaments in a row. You know, you've got France now, you know, so it's as well in England have a generation that they've probably never had as talented, if we're perfectly honest. But the problem, I would be worried if I looked at
00:17:47
Speaker
I was more, let me put it to you this way, I was far more worried in 2000 for German football. I was far more worried four years ago after that debacle for Germany than I am now. I think what we're seeing now in this German side is a little bit of an identity crisis, trying to find the right balance between the traditional German team, the kind of organization, and this is how we play as a team,
00:18:18
Speaker
and the balance between that and the individual brilliance of someone like Sane and Musiala. I think it's a little bit of an identity crisis, and I think it was a little bit also down to chance.
00:18:30
Speaker
Without having verified this, I'm pretty sure that Germany has hit the woodwork more than any other team in this tournament. The game against Japan was insane. It was a festival of missed chances. If you look at XG and how many big chances they created, it was not even close. I'd be much more worried if they barely scraped through these games.
00:18:59
Speaker
But they didn't. They got into the tournament wrong against Japan. They scrambled against Spain and they kind of did so against Costa Rica as well. And it just turned out to not be enough on the day. I think it was more down to chance, similarly to how Italy, after the Euros, more down to the individual situation, not qualifying for the World Cup like these specific debacles.
00:19:22
Speaker
of not qualifying for the World Cup or going through from the group stage. But I do think that Hans E. Flick is the right man for the job. I think this rejuvenation that he's done is the right one. I think it's about tweaking more than anything. And I expect Germany to be back. And by back, I mean
Germany's Rebuilding and Young Talent
00:19:43
Speaker
contending for a title within the next two to four years. I don't see they're at home. They're obviously they're obviously hosting the next year. But yeah, I mean, I think I think there was obviously some bad luck involved in their exit. And just for that, like I said, for the number of chances that they created in the
00:20:02
Speaker
I actually thought, even against Spain, I actually thought, well, first half, they were played off the park. They were played off the park in the first half. I actually thought second half, they deserved the draw from the game, I thought. But I think that there's too many clear weaknesses. And this is why I said at the start of the tournament, I didn't expect them to do very well. And it's why I think most Germans
00:20:20
Speaker
journalists and experts didn't really expand didn't expect them to do very well either. There's too many clear weaknesses, their defense is an absolute unmitigated disaster. And you see by the number of goals that they conceded in the tournament, they're just is dreadful, their defense. And they don't have a number nine, either, which is obviously
00:20:38
Speaker
plays into the number of misjances that they had. They've got an incredible midfield and attacking midfield, but at the either end of the pitch, there's glaring weaknesses. And I also think Hansi Flick had a shocker of a tournament, and that comes from someone who's a fan of him. I thought he was awful, dreadful. His starting 11, some of the decisions that he made were... Some of his in-game decisions were fine, but his starting choices... It was wrong. It was completely wrong.
00:21:04
Speaker
Absolutely 100 percent. Mula was off there. I saw at the beginning of the tournament that there was odds of Thomas Mula to be finished top scorer of the tournament. Over 100 to 1 I saw one thing and I thought, this can't be right, this must be wrong.
00:21:22
Speaker
And I checked it and it really wasn't. I was going to put a bet on it because I thought 100 to 1 for Thomas Muller. I thought, that's pretty good. And I asked a couple of German friends, they said, no, no, stay well out of it. You're well short of fitness, hasn't played much, you know, and he's done. But he kept playing him. And I'm thinking, you know, so. But yeah, I mean, coming to the bigger picture. Yeah, I mean, I think that Italy haven't spoken to people because I asked I asked our friend Ronan Murphy about this because he's a big German football expert. And
00:21:49
Speaker
before we did this show, so I wanted to know. And I asked him, you know, what players do Germany have that are coming through the next generation? And his answer was that really, there's not that much. There's obviously Musiala, who I think is fantastic, and I think he's gonna have a big career. It's incredible dribbler, close dribbler. They've got Mukoko, the young Dortmund won the kid, and they've got him. But apart from that, there isn't really that much, you know,
00:22:18
Speaker
there's not really that much talent and obviously players can always emerge but there's no defenders there's no real defenders coming through at all and there's no obvious kind of natural number nine either that's coming through and there's our players in this starting level and there are you know over 30 that are approaching 30 that are going to have to be
00:22:40
Speaker
you know, they might not have another tournament in them or they might be past their best in the next tournament. So, you know, I think Germany have a lot of work to do and I think when you compare it to Italy, I think Italy definitely have more players coming through than Germany. I think Italy's immediate future looks brighter just in terms of the personnel that we have available, the players that are developing.
00:23:02
Speaker
But yeah, I think you're right though. I think that we won't see that level of dominance from two teams like we saw for so long. I think the era of that is over in football generally. It's not just, I think the competition is too high. I think the teams are too well prepared. All the teams are too well prepared for that to happen.
00:23:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting one. It's an interesting one, isn't it? Because Germany, they really, they rebuilt everything over after their disaster at the beginning of the millennium. Yeah. And it's going to be interesting if they do that again. I mean, they use this as some German. That's what was coming. Yeah, that's exactly what
00:23:50
Speaker
coming to because they've actually performed worse in these three tournaments than I think they've ever done in their history. The thing about Germany is that even when they started to go a bit crap after the 90s, when things started to decline, even in their Euro 1960, I don't think it was particularly great. It's quite an aging team. It was an old team. It was an old team.
00:24:12
Speaker
but they still won the tournament and deservedly won the tournament to be fair. But it wasn't an amazing team. It wasn't like their 1990 team or their 1986 team or 82 team or 74 team or 70 team, which were just full of legend after legend after 11. The teams, but they still seem to keep doing well. 2002, they still got to the finals somehow with a dreadful team. Okay, most of the good teams got cheated out of the tournament. But it's
00:24:39
Speaker
It's, you know, 2008, they got to the Euros with an average team. So they could always punch where they were. Yet now, you know, they probably had better, they've got better players now than they had then, yet they've performed badly. So it's weird from a mentality point of view as well, whether this Germany is the same Germany as before. They could always perform even when they didn't have good players. It was always never right off the Germans because they'll always perform even if they don't have any good players. So that's an interesting one as well.
00:25:08
Speaker
Yeah, it is. Okay. Right. Big question now. Big, big question. This is a big talking point. Maybe one we should have done later in the tournament, but after his magical performance against Australia, I think let's do it now. We can do it all again before the semi-final when I think that Argentina are going to meet Brazil in the semis.
00:25:27
Speaker
there will be so much to talk about for us. There's going to be a lot of Serie A players in that game, but let's see if they can both get there first.
Messi's World Cup Legacy
00:25:34
Speaker
Messi was absolutely glorious against Australia. Argentina were doing nothing in this game, absolutely nothing. They were dreadful. Let's be honest, they were awful until Messi, just an individual moment of magic,
00:25:50
Speaker
put them ahead and then from there on the game opened up and I thought Argentina were pretty good second half and deserved to win even though Australia could have got that equalizer right at the end to make it 2-0 and get to extra time but Australia did fantastically well. They've done so well in this tournament.
00:26:07
Speaker
played so far above themselves. They've been such a great team as a unit, as to the togetherness, and they've done so well. But Messi was the difference. Let's be honest, Messi decided this game. If Messi wasn't on the pitch here for Argentina, I don't even know if Argentina would have necessarily won this game. I really don't agree. So the big question is now, you know,
00:26:34
Speaker
This has been so far, Messi has carried Argentina because the second game as well against Mexico, they were struggling and he scored the goal. If Messi was to win this World Cup, there's been this never ending Messi versus Maradona debate. If Messi was to win the World Cup, would this take him above Maradona? Would this make him the greatest player of all time, let's say?
00:27:01
Speaker
It would certainly make those claims much more valid, in my opinion, because by that means he would have basically completed football. I mean, he would have won the Olympics, he would have won Copa America, he would have won the World Cup. He's won everything at European club level. He's missing what? Copa Libertadores, which I'm sure he can sort out in the twilight of his career, if that's what he wants to do.
00:27:28
Speaker
But he will have completed football, wouldn't he? I mean, he would have won everything there is to win. So there will definitely be in terms of career wise, I think, yes, I don't think anyone can can say anything against that in just terms of what he's accomplished in his career. But if you look at the level that he reached when at his best and compare that to Maradona, those years, 86 to 89,
00:27:57
Speaker
Just I was doing this because I was sick over the weekend and I had lots of spare time. And what one does when one is sick is one naturally goes back and rewatches every single game that Argentina played in the 1986 World Cup. Why not? And, you know, seriously.
00:28:15
Speaker
Yes, the tempo is lower, but the defending is ruthless. If I did that to someone on a pitch, I'd be sent to prison. Did you see the pitches in 86 as well? Exactly. Did you see when you went on that run? Yeah, exactly. And if you want to talk about heat, if you want to talk about
00:28:34
Speaker
the level of protection or non-existent from the referees, and then you look at what that man does. Most of his impressive things that he does in those games are chances that his teammates can't even score, tap-ins they miss, that no one even remembers because they didn't turn into goals. The level that he played at in 1986 at the World Cup is the highest any player has ever played at in World Cup history.
00:29:03
Speaker
Yeah, there's no doubt about that. It's just that simple. I'm in agreement with you completely. I think that depends how you analyse this. I think if you're going to look at who is the greatest club player of all time, just put it at club.
00:29:27
Speaker
I think it's hard to look past Messi. Certainly if we're looking at the greatest one club player of all time, I think it has to be Messi. Like what he did, just all the records he broke and all the goals he scored, the assists, the numbers back it up.
00:29:39
Speaker
trophies he won, but the part that he played in all those trophies, the impact that he had, the influence that he had, absolutely incredible. Obviously, there's always the argument that Messi only really did it for one club. I know he's gone to PSG now, but he's playing in a poor league. Let's see if he can do it in the Champions League and take them to win the Champions League. If he does that, then you can add that as well. Some players have done it in more leagues.
00:30:07
Speaker
in different environments. But I do think that if you're looking at a club player, Messi probably is the greatest club player of all time. But when you're combining it, club and international, and let's remember, until recently, I would say until the last 10 to 15 years,
00:30:26
Speaker
international football was always the pinnacle of football. It was always the highest level of football that has changed in the last 10-15 years for reasons which we've actually got a question on it in our Q&A episode on Tuesday which we're going to discuss this in more detail in which what I will say is that you know I think that the level of football has gone down in the last 10 to 15 years because what has happened is that there's about eight teams in world football that
00:30:54
Speaker
super clubs that are basically monopolizing all the best players in the world. So the Champions League from the quarterfinals onwards looks at an incredible high level, and it is an incredible high level. But the number of quality players across the board, across all clubs and all leagues, has reduced massively because it's just monopolized by a few clubs and a few leagues. And that's basically what's happened. And then we can see that in international football, the level has gone down so, so much.
00:31:23
Speaker
And you know, you look at Maradona, what he did when he was playing internationally. And international football was so high, incredibly high. I mean, you look at the 86 World Cup, and what he did with that Argentina team, that Argentina team, don't let anybody tell you otherwise, there's been some post revisionism on this, that Argentina 86 team, that
00:31:44
Speaker
Anybody, the people that say that haven't actually watched that Argentina 86 team. Let me tell you, that Argentina 86 team was one of the most average teams Argentina have ever had. It was ridiculously average. You look at the individual, look at, go for the players individually that they had in that Argentina team.
00:32:02
Speaker
There wasn't hardly anyone in that team. There's a household name, just a few really. Very few of them played for big clubs. Most of them were played in South America. Not many of them had particularly memorable careers. There was a few, Budhichaga, Maldano, but again, even these two, they weren't.
00:32:23
Speaker
great players. They were good to very good players. Ruggieri, the defender who actually moved to Real Madrid and didn't do anything. There's hardly anyone. They didn't have a great team at all. They had a very, very every. They only just qualified for the World Cup for a playoff and they didn't even qualify for that World Cup. Maradona won that single-handedly. What he did there was absolutely well known. I think you put Messi in that 2016. They don't win the World Cup because
00:32:49
Speaker
because I think that's what the difference was between the two players, that Maradona could raise the quality of a really, really poor team and make them win. And in some ways he did the same with Napoli, although Napoli did have lots of other top players. They certainly were nowhere near the best team in Italy. No chance, you know, you had the Milan, the Inces, the Juventus, you know, what he did is he took a team that was a good to very good team and he made them a great team.
00:33:14
Speaker
and he won the Scletto with them twice in the hardest league, the most difficult league there's ever been. So I guess the point I'm making is that what Maradona did internationally, even if Messi wins the World Cup, this World Cup, what Messi did internationally will never get close to what Maradona did, not even close.
00:33:34
Speaker
And remember, Maradona took them to the World Cup in 1990. He wasn't great in that tournament, but he was still influential. Messi's playing in a much better Argentina team. I don't think this is a great Argentina team either, but it's a much, much better team, this Argentina team than the team in 86, player for player. You look at the rest of the quality in this Argentina team. And also, finally, the other point was, yeah, just the quality
00:34:01
Speaker
of international football, just the quality of the game I thought was higher in 1986. I know a lot of people would disagree with me, but I truly believe that. I think the quality across the board was higher. No, I agree with all of that. I really don't know anything about all of that, 100%.
00:34:24
Speaker
But that's not taking anything away from Messi, because I think he has been fantastic in this tournament. And remember, he's 35 years old. And if there's one thing that Messi definitely has over Maradona is that longevity, his longevity, for sure, because, you know, Maradona, when he got into, well, when he got kicked out of Italy, when he was 30, he was still 30, actually, he was just approaching 31 at the end of the two 1990-91 season.
00:34:48
Speaker
you know, you know, the age of 31, Maradona's top level career really was over, went to Sevilla, but you know, after his drug ban, and he went to the World Cup in 94, where he was playing really, really well in that tournament before, you know, the again, he got kicked out of that tournament.
00:35:04
Speaker
And then he went back to Argentina, you know, and he was overweight and he had the drug problem. So, you know, he was, his top level career was kind of over really by 30, 31, whereas Messi still at 35, you know, he's still doing it. And he, he started very, very young as well. Maybe not as young as Maradona. As Maradona was a phenomenon already at 16, 17, but then so was Messi at 18, 19, 20, you know? It's a, I'm sure we'll have this debate again though. We're sure we will if, if Argentina,
00:35:33
Speaker
I think it will be an Argentina-Brazil semi-final, and then it's toss a coin. I probably favour Brazil right now, but when it's Brazil versus Argentina, it's a derby. It doesn't necessarily go to form or quality. It becomes an all-out slugfest, doesn't it?
00:35:54
Speaker
That's going to be so, I mean, Brazil, Argentina, and one semi-final, and France, Portugal, and the other semi-finals. Yeah, that'd be delicious. After USA Iran, there's been a lot of daubies in this one. Certainly, certainly.
00:36:12
Speaker
Just before we move on to Argentina, just very quickly, because I know you touched upon this already before, but Lautaro, his struggles in this tournament, because he's got no goals, no assists. He played the first two games. I actually thought he did all right in the first game against Saudi Arabia, because, well, I say he did all right, but I thought he took his two chances really clinically, like really classily, but obviously got disallowed for offside.
00:36:35
Speaker
But then I just think that since then he's really mentally, his head seems to have gone and he seems to be so bereft of confidence and he's been dropped the last two games. And when he has come on, he's had really big chances in the last two games. And the way that he's taken them have been so badly taken. And he looks frustrated and he's thrown his arms, his body language looks bad.
00:37:00
Speaker
Is this something that should be, not inter should be worried about? Is this something that, is it a little bit symptomatic of Lautora and Martinez?
00:37:10
Speaker
Is this stopping him from becoming that world-class player that we keep saying? He has everything to become that world-class player. It's something that holds him short, whether it's... Yeah, it is. It's the finishing. It's the clinical finishing. And I thought we were past this stage. I really thought we turned a corner last spring when he was playing like...
00:37:31
Speaker
the number nine that I never thought he would become. And I was holding my hand up on this podcast saying I was wrong. I never thought he'd become that killer in the box. And he looked like he'd become it, but he's not. We're back to... He's regressed this season. He's taken a step back in that regard. And he's not getting any younger. He's no longer just a talented, up-and-coming player. He's an established player. And now's the time for him to shine.
00:38:01
Speaker
You know, I'm not just talking about this tournament, which again, I think is very fickle. I think if he gets into that tournament, you know, if he gets into the game against Saudi Arabia really well and scores once or twice, I think he flies after that. But what I do find encouraging is you see how messy you see. And when you say messy, that messy is Argentina. When messy likes somebody, the Argentinian national team likes somebody.
00:38:28
Speaker
He decides that and it's quite clear they're all defending Lautaro. They're all wanting Lautaro to do well. You could see Messi really wanted passing him. There were chances he could have taken a few finishes himself but he plays Lautaro into position. He wants him to do well. He wants him to get going because Messi's not stupid. He understands that Lautaro Martinez in form with confidence
00:38:54
Speaker
is a weapon that can help Argentina very much win the World Cup.
Matthijs de Ligt's Career Concerns
00:38:59
Speaker
He's had a very disappointing World Cup so far, Lautaro, no doubt. But I mean, again, you go into the Netherlands game, Lautaro scores once or twice and becomes the hero, and then all of that is gone. I mean, we've seen this at Inter, haven't we? He goes in these patches where he doesn't score
00:39:15
Speaker
I thought against Australia, he actually came on and did some good things, but that's all negated by these horrible, shocking finishes. I think it's a mental thing with him. I don't think he starts against the Netherlands, but I think if he comes on and he has a decisive role to play, scores a goal, which we know he can do, we've seen him do it in big games, especially at club level.
00:39:41
Speaker
if he's able to translate that form that he's had at Inter when he's in these non-scoring patches and he ends them by scoring against the big teams, then that will turn his World Cup around for him because the further Argentina go and the more he can be decisive in helping them forward, that will change the narrative. No one will remember this if Argentina
00:40:08
Speaker
win the World Cup and Lautaro scores four goals from now until the final, no one will remember his early. They will just remember Lautaro Messi, Argentina winning the World Cup.
00:40:19
Speaker
You know, that is that as well. But of course, there is that those question marks need to be. Doesn't help that he's been dropped now and that he's not going to. Well, I mean, he should. I understand that he's been dropped. I mean, I would play Julian. I would definitely not start him, especially when you've got someone who's scoring and and his inform and looks his confidence is as good as it is with Julian Alvarez. Yeah, yeah, for sure. OK, let's move on. France, Poland. So France beat Poland 3-1.
00:40:48
Speaker
Yeah, 3-1. Yeah, Lewandowski scored the penalty right at the end. Two big talking points from this. I mean, Giroud has broken the France scoring record. He's overtaken Thierry Henry, was level with him. And now he is third goal of the tournament for Giroud, isn't it? Yeah, so I mean, from my point of view, I think he's having a great tournament, 36 years old.
00:41:16
Speaker
France haven't missed Benzema at all so far. Obviously, they've got the huge game against England coming this weekend where maybe Benzema would have been, especially with England's aerial game, maybe cancelling out Giroud's biggest strength. Maybe Benzema might be more useful for that game, but he's still going to be huge for that match. I think he's probably going to get the new Milan contract. The contract runs out at the end of the
00:41:45
Speaker
at the end of the season. But, you know, Giroud is, well, he's doing Milan and Serie A proud, isn't he, in this tournament? Well, he absolutely is. I mean, he's the all-time goal scorer for France, isn't he? And
00:42:02
Speaker
I don't think he's going to have that for much longer, because I think in a few years' time, maybe three, Kylian Mbappe will be the all-time French goalscorer. I think Kylian Mbappe, if he continues to develop like he is a normal career trajectory, given the trajectory he's already on,
00:42:22
Speaker
If he continues this trajectory, I think he'll be the all-time World Cup goalscorer in just another World Cup. I already have him as my top goalscorer this tournament, and I think he's pretty much clinched that with five goals. I think he'll score one or two more, and then that's it. And add to the four he scored four years ago when they won the World Cup, that's 11. It's 10-11 already. So no, it's crazy. He's not even turned 23, is it? Has he? I mean, it's just
00:42:50
Speaker
23 he turns 24 this month. Oh, sorry 24. Yeah. Nice. It's it's 23 now. He's still 20. He's still 22. But 27 of the next World Cup because obviously in the summer. But he's he's yeah, I do think I think he's gonna break the World Cup all time. Well, no, but it's 16. Marisol closer. And then he still hasn't even peaked yet. And he could be the player since since
00:43:18
Speaker
He is, he could be the player that equals, theoretically equals Brazil's, you know, Pelé's three World Cups, you know, because France, he's already got one. France are favourites to win this. They could win another in four years time as well, or eight years time. They're, you know, just based on the talent they have. I mean, it's insane when you think about it.
00:43:40
Speaker
It's really, really crazy. His performance the other night was outrageous, those two goals. I mean, not even quarter chances, you know, in the way that he... I mean, actually, Poland actually had a higher XG than France in this game, but obviously Mbappe, when you can score goals out of nothing like that, then, you know, you're always going to have a chance of winning games.
00:44:07
Speaker
And yeah, I thought that Poland, I actually thought Poland did all right, actually, compared to that they were really bad in the tournament up until the France game. But I thought they played quite well. And they really should have taken the lead. Zelensky with a huge miss at nil-nil. He's been burying those for Napoli. They should have been 1-0 up before Giroud scored the opener for France.
00:44:31
Speaker
Chesney, I thought... I thought Chesney had a great tournament, actually. I actually think Chesney's probably been the best goalkeeper in the tournament. I was just going to say that. Until the last 16th. I thought he made two penalty saves, didn't he, in the group stages. That is one positive for Juventus, at least the goalkeepers playing well, and they might need him.
00:44:52
Speaker
Okay, so France will play England, not Senegal. The conference will win for England. There's not really much to say about England. It was a kind of routine win against a pretty poor Senegal team. So Senegal did have a big chance at Neil Nell, but once England scored it was pretty much all over.
00:45:15
Speaker
Holland beat the USA 3-1. There was just one talking point I wanted to raise on this game and that is Mathias de Licht has, he can't get into the Holland team, I think he played was it just the first game that he played and then he's been left out of the team since then.
00:45:36
Speaker
It's quite an interesting one because, you know, when he went to Juventus, when he moved to Juventus for such big money, 85 million or however much it was in 2019, he was obviously built up to be the next, the next
00:45:52
Speaker
biggest defensive star in world football. He was going to be the next great defender of world football. Juventus had beaten Barcelona to him and they'd beaten Man United were interested as well. They'd got an absolute superstar on their hands. He was young and he could be there for many years. He really was the complete defender. He had everything.
00:46:17
Speaker
And I've always said, I think we both have said that he really was really not very good at the event as he was decent at most really. I think the first two seasons he was pretty just decent. I thought this final season he was pretty good but not outstanding. I thought he was good.
00:46:34
Speaker
And now he's gone to Bayern and Bayern Munich, he's not really been great. I'll be honest, I haven't watched too much of Bayern, but everyone I've spoken to, you know, he hasn't always played. He's been, you know, a little bit, lucky was at the event, he's a little bit mistake-prone now and again, bit clumsy. And now we're looking at Holland.
00:46:53
Speaker
And, you know, he doesn't get into the Holland backline, you know, Van Hal plays a three man defense and he plays Van Dyck in the middle. He plays Nathan Aquet left center back and he plays Julian Timber at right center back. And the reason why he does that is and I think this is one of the criticisms that I had of the Licht when he was at Juventus is that he's not the most flexible tactically, you know, he wants
00:47:22
Speaker
What Vanhal wants is he wants his centre backs to be able to move from a three to a two and then one of the other centre backs moves to a full back. For example, Timba can move to right back whereby Van Dyken
00:47:38
Speaker
AKA will be centre backs, then Blind comes back from his left wing back roll to become a left back, Timba moves over to right back and then Dumfries pushes right forward from his right wing back area to become a right winger. So it's very tactically flexible, they can move that. It's something that I think Holland has done very well in this tournament because I'm not particularly rate Holland, I don't think they're the
00:48:02
Speaker
a particularly great team but I think they have they have worked very well tactically in this tournament and this is an example of that and it's something that Delic just doesn't really seem to be capable to have the ability to be able to do because you know he's I don't think he's very yeah he's not very flexible tactically or physically like he doesn't move very well I don't think he he's very moves freely laterally or
00:48:26
Speaker
or when he has to, you know, defend space, like on the, you know, if he was a right centre back, we'd have to defend that space in behind and to the side of him, where the wing back is, like where Dumfries is, for example, and Dumfries likes to push forward. So, you know, I think that it's, how old is Dilip now? Is he 20, is he still 23? Or was he 24? You know, I think the question needs to be, I mean, the question needs to be asked now. I mean,
00:48:52
Speaker
has Delic been overrated or is it still too early to say? He's only 23 years old and the central defenders usually come on, you know, their strike, you know, really hit their peak a little bit later in their careers. I think he had, he had, he did, he did say something about this thing saying like, you know, you know, Van Gaal has been very honest with me. He's been very, he's been very honest about who, what he wants from me and what he wants to
00:49:20
Speaker
to do and all that stuff and why he hasn't played me enough and I completely understand that. So, you know, it's because of the way that they want to play. I mean, whatever that is, I personally think that Delich maybe in a back three, in this back three, would probably do well, you know, but I mean, that's just my opinion, but Fankhal agrees and I think Fankhal knows better than
00:49:41
Speaker
And lots of people really respect him. But look, it's I do agree with you that it's a little bit clock is ticking. The question is very valid. Is he overrated? Was he overrated?
00:49:58
Speaker
Was it the wrong move for him at that point in his career to go to Juve to a new league? Was that the right step, given where Juve were, given where he was? All of these are valid questions. I really, really think so. But I'm still not ready to quite give up on him just yet.
00:50:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's the lack of progress, which is the worrying thing. You can say a player is not good enough, but you can say, is he improving though? Can we see little areas of his game that are developing? And I can honestly say that the delict that came from Ajax in 2019 compared to the delict now three and a half years later,
00:50:45
Speaker
Has he improved? Is there any area of his game that you can say he's actually improved, that he's a better player? I don't know if I can, to be honest. I don't see him as a better player now than in any area, to be honest. The issues that he had then, I think he still has now. He's still clumsy. He's still a bit flat-footed. He still doesn't move particularly well on the turn. He's liable to give away
00:51:14
Speaker
Penalties and you know free kicks and you know, so yeah, I don't know. I think it's it's another one of those where you know, you've enters they made a mistake signing him and By signing him they got rid of they had to get rid of you know that to make sacrifices elsewhere like get rid of Tencello and and spin it solo and the like, you know, so Okay, they've sold him now, but it's yeah, just it was another another example of parity and and making a bad deal
00:51:44
Speaker
Okay, right. Before we finish...
00:51:53
Speaker
So last week we did a greatest ever Italy World Cup 11 where we picked our best Italy team, went through each position, goalkeeper, defender, midfielder, attacker and we picked the best Italy coach, we picked the best Italy winger, we picked the best Italy 11 and that was on last Monday's show so take a listen to that.
Greatest Italy World Cup Team Debate
00:52:15
Speaker
What we're going to do today
00:52:16
Speaker
is, and we won't spend ages on this because we're already quite well on our way through this show, is pick the greatest ever Italy World Cup tournament team. When I say that, I mean, what is Italy's greatest ever World Cup tournament team? Was it their 2006 team? Was it their 1982 team?
00:52:38
Speaker
was the 1990 team. Which team it was, and I'm not going to go through every single team because it's going to take us too long. So what I'll do is, Nima, do you tell me which teams you liked and which team you would then ultimately pick as the best team?
00:52:58
Speaker
Um, I mean, the 82 team, the 90, the 94, 2006, I mean, these are, you know, these are teams that are very, you know, I have an emotional attachment to, um, especially the, even though the 2002 team was a bit, you know, they didn't exactly do well. I really, really enjoy, I really liked that team. Uh, and also what the, you know, the, the, you know, Euro 2000,
00:53:23
Speaker
you know, that because it was the core of the Euro 2000 team, wasn't it? And but it was kind of the culmination of that was what became the 2006. But I mean, from a, you know, when you're a kid and when you're emotionally attached to things, the 1990 team will always be special for me. I can't get away from it.
00:53:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it depends how you wanna look at this. I mean, if you're looking at the best team, I guess, obviously winning the trophy is obviously the most important thing. And Italy won the World Cup four times in 34, 38, 82, and 2006. But again, as we said on last Monday's show, I just can't sit here and tell you how good the 34 and 38 team is because I haven't seen their games. There's only short highlights of the show.
00:54:15
Speaker
every other every other every italy world cup game that they've played in a tournament from 60 1962 through till today at the finals themselves i've watched every single game so i feel comfortable sitting here and telling you which team i think was was the best um but i mean if you're going on the teams that won the trophies then obviously it's out of 82 and 2000 and
00:54:37
Speaker
2006. And it's a bit like the debate between Zoff and Buffon. I just can't separate those two teams at all. They're so close between those two teams. It's weird because there's many people, and I'm almost inclined to agree that the 1978 team
00:55:03
Speaker
The 1978 Italy team was actually better than the 1982 team. And in a similar way, there's many people that think that the 2002 Italy team, which went out in the last 16, had more talent than the 2016. When you take the 2002 team, they had
00:55:22
Speaker
They had maybe the best striker in the world, you know, in, or certainly the top three in Christian Vieri at that 2002 World Cup. Whereas in 2006, they didn't really have a strike. I mean, Luca Tony was there, but he didn't play well. He'd come off that golden boot, European golden boot winning season, but he didn't really have the best World Cup. He kind of did a job. He held it up, but he wasn't really devastating. Whereas in 2002, I mean, just, you know, you had all those attackers, they were all at their peak, you know, in the peak of their careers.
00:55:51
Speaker
And then you know, you had so many defenders and you had you know, I don't know It's a tough one and then but then I look but then also, you know, I look at the 1990 team and That team in 1990 was was just I mean, there's no doubt it was the best team in the tournament they didn't even barely conceded a chance let alone conceded a goal until
00:56:16
Speaker
you know, midway through the second half of the semi-final when Zenga made that big mistake. And until then, you know, they barely, no one even laid a glove on them. And I'm sure they would have won the World Cup if it wasn't for that mistake. But then, you know, the manager was a bit defensive in that semi-final. Vicini, you know, they were 1-0 up.
00:56:40
Speaker
and they were playing against a poor Argentina team and he decided to just try and hold on to what he had rather than go and get the second goal, which was a common mistake that Italian managers made. They made the same mistake in 1978 against Holland. They were 1-0 up against Holland, they were going through to the final and they needed to win the game and at half-time Biertzot took off the best player on the pitch, Franco Calzio, who was terrorising his left back
00:57:05
Speaker
in that game took him off they tried to hold on to the 1-0 and Holland scored with two miracle goals from from miles out and they and ended up losing and they didn't qualify for the final you know but the 1990 team just had the best defense ever the bet probably the best Italy defense I think we've ever had was the 1990 defense I mean it was unbreachable it was you know Burgamy
00:57:27
Speaker
Ricardo Ferri, Franco Berets in Paolo Maldini. I mean, that defense was just unbelievable. Berets in at the peak of his powers.
00:57:40
Speaker
You know, and then the firepower of, you know, you had Badjo and then you had midfielders like Dona Doni and Denapoli and Janini and I mean, just, just skill actually got hot in that tournament. It was, you know, amazing, amazing team. So I'm almost inclined to say 1990, you know, obviously they didn't, they didn't win the trophy. So that is what counts. I mean, just those, those images, those iconic images, Walter Zenga and I mean, that back four, it's just now,
00:58:10
Speaker
Bergomi, Ferri, Ciro Ferrara, Maldini, Baresi. It's such an iconic, and those shirts, and the rooms, and pick stadium, and that song, Unastati Italiana.
00:58:27
Speaker
I mean, it's just such an iconic, I mean, it's one of those things that I mean, the World Cup for me is so it's, I look at it, it's, you know, it's the stories. And I think when you're a child, the one that had the deepest impact on me is Italian 90. So nothing, and that team is, and that West Germany team and that Italy team are so symptomatic of that. Yeah.
00:58:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And again, like what we were discussing about the quality. I mean, again, you look at the quality of the teams. It's just unbelievable. And that West Germany team was
00:59:05
Speaker
was out of this world. It really was. And Brazil had a great team as well. They went out to Argentina in the last 16. They absolutely battered them in that game. And Argentina had one chance for a moment of magic from Maradona, who went on a brilliant solo run and set up Kanija, who scored the goal. But apart from that, Brazil absolutely battered them, played them off the path. And remember Italy being so happy that Brazil were out because Brazil were in the root.
00:59:32
Speaker
run in Italy's route and they were out and then Italy ended up going out to Argentina. And I still haven't got over it. No, I don't think some things you never get over. I will never get over Euro 2000 final. That's the one. No, that's another one. I can't get over that. I can't accept that. No. It's one of those ones where you still can't believe it. You still can't believe it. How did this happen?
00:59:59
Speaker
Yeah, there you go. OK, let's finish off with Bad Joe and Prim Face of the Week. OK. Bad Joe. We got the Bad Joe. I mean, Mbappe. It's got to be Mbappe. Yeah, Mbappe. Mbappe. Mbappe, Chesney. And also, I don't know if we... I think this is the first time we're doing this segment since this happened. But Kaelor Navas, Save, against Germany,
01:00:27
Speaker
is it's one of the most incredible saves I think I've ever seen in my life. How the hell did he keep that ball out from field crew? I think it is. It's just wow. That's bad. You're worthy.
01:00:42
Speaker
Yeah, that was an amazing save. Yeah, there has been some great saves in this tournament, actually. There hasn't been that many great long shots in this tournament. There's one criticism of this tournament, not many great long range goals at all. You know, Mbappe, but that was just outside the area. There was a free kick from one of the Mexico players that was brilliant. Hasn't been, it's been, you know, I'm feeling chapulani vibes from this ball, the way that it's moving and how light it is and shots just going blazed over the bar.
01:01:10
Speaker
I don't know what they've done with the football this year, but yeah. Prem face. Who we got for Prem face? I've got one. Yeah, you go for one. It's Prem face overload right now, but I'm sure I think I know which one you've picked. You probably don't. Let me just find it. I only got centre this morning. Let's have a look.
01:01:32
Speaker
I mean the Declan, there was one about Declan Rice again and how he, what was he, so what was it, if he went to Chelsea they would be unbeatable.
01:01:45
Speaker
I feel bad for him. He's not asked for any of this attention. I don't feel sorry for him because he's been very mouthy for a long time about how great England are and even himself, which is good. It's good to have confidence, but he's been a bit delusional at times. I remember when Italy beat
01:02:07
Speaker
England in the nation's league and he was saying that Italy only had one shot and England dominated and played great football and England barely did anything all game you know yeah he's yeah no here we go so this is from a guy called what's his name he works for being sports
01:02:27
Speaker
Andy Kerr, who's been, I've seen a few of his tweets going round. He said, killing Mbappe may be more popular, but Phil Foden is the most technically gifted player at this World Cup after Messi. So there you have it. Phil Foden's better than killing Mbappe now, guys.
01:02:50
Speaker
Didn't I didn't who else who was it who said about like he's he's he's even who was it that I think it was someone on talk sport who said the Fodence is even in big and natural talent and Lionel Messi which I was like right I'm done that's enough internet for me like when I saw that it's like I was done for the day yeah we're gonna get a lot of that we're gonna get a lot of that in the next few days that's for sure
01:03:18
Speaker
Oh, sweet Jesus in heaven. Yeah, it's yeah, never, never change, guys. Never change. Right. Okay. That's all we have time for today. We will be back. So Tuesday, Tuesday, we will have interview episode. No, we don't have the interview episode. We have the Q&A episode on Tuesday. Yes. We are doing the interview tomorrow. We'll reveal who it is tomorrow.
01:03:47
Speaker
It's a seria player. It's a striker one of the best strikers the seria So you can start having a think and having a guess and who you think it is We reveal who it is tomorrow. We're looking forward to that and that will come out later later in the week Okay, right until next time. Ciao. Ciao