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Sabahar (Addis Ababa, Ethiopia)
103 Plays7 months ago
Today’s guest is Kathy Marshall, founder of a handweaving company based in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia called Sabahar. In this episode, Kathy paints a picture of life in Addis and we try to unbox some complex topics like gender roles, professionalism in the artisan space, and dealing with charity mentalities related to handmade crafts.
Website: https://sabahar.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sabahar/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SabaharEthiopia
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Why'd I Buy' Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello everyone, welcome to Why'd I Buy, a podcast where we bring guests from all around the world to talk about artisans, authenticity, and craftsmanship for the modern consumer. I'm your host, Lulu Byers, and today's guest is Kathy Marshall, founder of a hand-weaving company based in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, called Sabahar.
Lulu's Experience with Sabahar
00:00:24
Speaker
In today's episode, Kathy paints a picture of life in Addis, and we try to unbox some meaty topics like gender roles,
00:00:31
Speaker
professionalism in the artisan space, and dealing with charity mentalities related to handmade crafts. I spent about a week with Kathy in 2022 at Sabahar and had such an enriching experience speaking to her and interviewing some of Sabahar's artisans, which is why I'm so excited to bring a splash of that to listeners here at Wide Eye Buy.
Kathy's Journey to Ethiopia
00:00:50
Speaker
So, without further ado, here's our episode.
00:00:58
Speaker
Hi, Kathy. Thank you so much for being here on Wide Eye Bye. Hi. Thanks, Lulu. It's nice to be here talking to you. Yes. I am so excited to dive a little deeper and talk about the weavers that you work with in Addis. But to start, will you please give a little introduction about yourself and where you're from and what you're doing in Addis? Sure. My name is Kathy Marshall, and I am actually from Western Canada from the province of Alberta.
00:01:23
Speaker
but I moved to Ethiopia 30 years ago, and that was for development work. I worked the first years there with Oxfam Canada, because my background is in development, agricultural development, and development planning. I did that for a number of years at Addis, and then about, well, it's not about, it's exactly 20 years ago, I decided I would prefer to be engaged
00:01:52
Speaker
in the kind of development world, but in business.
Ethiopia's Geography and Sabahar's Oasis
00:01:56
Speaker
So I started the company called Sabahar. It's a for-profit company and focused on the production and marketing of hand-woven textiles.
00:02:06
Speaker
Thank you for that great intro. We'll definitely circle back and talk more about Sabahar specifically a little later. But first, I kind of want to help our listeners who are less familiar with Addis, with Ethiopia, with the eastern part of Africa, just to kind of situate you a little bit. Can you describe Addis, Ababa, as a city and where you live? Sure. So first of all, maybe start with Ethiopia. We're in the northern part of Africa.
00:02:37
Speaker
surrounded by Kenya, Sudan, Eritrea, Somalia. We have the second largest population in Africa. And then Addis Ababa, which means new flower, is situated almost centrally in the country. It's the capital city. It's a high elevation, very healthy, very green city that in terms of living there for 30 years, the biggest thing that comes to mind is
00:03:05
Speaker
urbanization explosion. It's the first probably 20 years of living there. It was kind of this rural-ish urban city. But as population grows and as more and more people come into Addis for looking for employment, the city has exploded. There's new roads everywhere. There's new buildings everywhere. So it's a city with lots of change, I can say. A country with lots of change.
00:03:35
Speaker
But the changes really happened in urban centers, and Addis is the biggest one. Within that at times chaotic life, Sabahar is this really lovely green haven. We were very fortunate to be able to acquire a piece of property that's just like, well, it is a garden, right very close to the center of Addis. And it was developed as a garden previously by the previous owner.
00:04:04
Speaker
So we have this lovely, quite large space that's full of trees and flowers and plants and fresh air. Where we do our production, which suits very well for us because we don't need big equipment for our production. We need space. We need good lighting. And we even need the open air because we dry everything, hang in it in the garden. So in this, people often come in our gate and they say, oh, it's this green haven in the center of the city.
The Tradition and Necessity of Weaving
00:04:34
Speaker
We have about 120 people working, which is surprising because of all the trees and the different locations of workspaces. You don't think there could be that many people. But again, because of our production value chain, which involves many different steps in the production process, people are separated in a kind of a logical way that flows throughout the property. And in the middle, there's all these beautiful green garden spaces.
00:05:04
Speaker
So it's a very lovely place to work. And I think it's not just me who feels that way. I think it's all my staff that feel that way as well. Yeah, that sounds like Sabahar is a bit of a oasis in a lot of different ways. Yeah, it is a very much an oasis and certainly our customers who come to shop. I know that they love the shopping, but they love walking through the whole production process and seeing the artisans and talking to the artisans and
00:05:34
Speaker
and really seeing close up what they're doing, I think that that has just as much impact in terms of understanding hand weaving as seeing and feeling the product.
00:05:47
Speaker
Yeah. So speaking of hand weaving, which is the craft we're talking about, that you practice at Sabahar, can you talk a little bit about, you know, contextualizing weaving in Ethiopia, you know, as the history relates to the weavers who weave today, why they weave and what that landscape looks like? Yeah. So Ethiopia, I mean, it was one of the objectives of the company was to kind of share with the world
00:06:18
Speaker
that Ethiopia has this very unique history of hand weaving. There's a lot of countries on the African continent and close to us that do basket weaving, but hand weaving is actually not that common, especially in the neighboring countries. In West Africa, there's hand weaving, and in South Africa, but not so much in the neighboring countries. So where and when it exactly started
00:06:49
Speaker
I think is open to speculation. But I think there's a couple important factors. And one is that Ethiopia does grow cotton. So in terms of having the raw material for weaving, it's locally produced to high quality, in fact, high quality cotton. Of course, Egyptian cotton has kind of the
00:07:12
Speaker
first place position in terms of quality of cotton. Right. The cachet. Right. But Ethiopian cotton is also very
Gender Roles in Weaving
00:07:19
Speaker
good. So anyways, it was the raw material for weaving, but also Ethiopia is a very rugged environment, very rugged landscape. So a lot of households and communities were very isolated throughout the millennia. And I think, you know, as not just Ethiopia, a lot of places, people develop self-sufficient lifestyles.
00:07:41
Speaker
And there was trade, certainly Ethiopia was part of trade historically, I mean, for hundreds and hundreds of years. But at the same time, there were communities that were pretty cut off from trading routes. So I think the weaving tradition, you know, developed out of necessity and developed especially in areas where there was cotton production. And as
00:08:07
Speaker
often happens, I guess, with processes or products that are valued. Weaving hand-woven products have a special place in the society. Almost ceremonial, but not so ceremonial. There's functional products like blankets, like the Gabi. The Gabi is a very traditional Ethiopian blanket that is not only functional in terms of warps and durability,
00:08:38
Speaker
but also ceremonial in terms of it's kind of one of the expected gifts that are exchanged during weddings. So it's hard to say kind of when weaving started and maybe, you know, how, perhaps the first loo even came from India because there was trade years ago from India, but it's very rooted. Weaving in Ethiopia is very, hand weaving is very rooted
00:09:07
Speaker
It's very known. It's practiced almost throughout the whole country now by different ethnic groups. And like I said, the products have both functional and ceremonial kind of positions in society. Wow.
00:09:22
Speaker
It's such an interesting history to think about how something like weaving, which, you know, in more metropolitan communities, like the one that I come from where clothing or the things with which you adorn yourself, your home are just so taken for granted because you're so distanced from the ways that they are made and by whom they're made. It seems very special to think about those things being handmade with care and dedication.
00:09:48
Speaker
Exactly. And with intention, I think that's a really important word to with intention, and just the creativity. And I should have mentioned also, even in terms of household dynamics, there's the spitting, you know, there's two aspects, you need your thread, and you need to weave your thread. So thread,
00:10:08
Speaker
needs to be produced. And if it's from cotton, that includes the step of picking the cotton, cleaning the cotton, removing the seeds, preparing the cotton in terms of getting the fibers aligned.
00:10:20
Speaker
which is like combing or carding, and then actually spinning the cotton to be ready for weavers. So in traditional textile families, all of that work could be done by women, even the picking of the cotton, if they had their own cotton fields, or the purchasing of the raw cotton in the market. And it's very tedious to clean out the cotton seed and to prepare these short fibers to make them ready for spinning. But that was all the work of women
00:10:50
Speaker
And it's actually quite logical because, of course, women have multiple, multiple roles in all societies and they need to multitask their whole lives. And cleaning, cotton, and spinning can be done, I mean, even as a woman walks along the road or certainly
00:11:10
Speaker
in combination with cooking or childcare. Then the thread passes to the weavers. Now, of course, weaving is a stationary activity. So it's an activity that cannot be so transient. And the man would sit there and do the weaving. Whereas, you know, the spinning can be done, like I said, as a multi
00:11:30
Speaker
tasking kind of activity. So that breakdown of women spinning, preparing the cotton and spinning and men doing the weaving is still very, very, very prevalent today. And even at Sabahar, right now, all our weavers are men and some women weave and there's no taboo against them weaving. It's just that for them to do both, the spinning and the weaving would be double the work. So it's actually a really great division of labor.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought this point up because hearing you talk about the reasons why there is that division of labor along the gender lines is really, really interesting given that so many weaving traditions around the world are carried forward by the women.
00:12:15
Speaker
It's often regarded as a woman's work to do the weaving, but the way you've explained it, I don't know, it just, it kind of brings a different perspective to that narrative in the fact that to weave is not something you can be, as you said, transient for. And I wonder if that really indicates the value of attention to detail of these
00:12:36
Speaker
wovens that are being made in Ethiopia in Addis that you can't get up and get down. You cannot do the multitasking required of a woman in order to make those kinds of tapestries. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not to say that women don't have the capacity to weave. They definitely do. And the focus on the detail and the focus on the high quality, but it's just that there's just so much
00:13:02
Speaker
so many other responsibilities of women for survival of the family, that I've always, you know, we've often gotten people that come to our place and say, Oh, why don't you train the women to weave?
Ethiopian Hand Weaving Techniques
00:13:15
Speaker
And my response is, you know, if women want to weave, if that fits their lifestyle, perfect, we can train them, no problem, they can do it. But if it doesn't fit their lifestyle, you know, the challenge
00:13:30
Speaker
is to give economic value to both activities that compensates the time commitment. And I think that's where one of the challenges is, because spinning is perceived as a less valuable activity and has always been paid less. So we've really at Sabahar tried to talk, even internally, even internally, you know, about the value of spinning. If we didn't have our beautiful handspun cotton,
00:13:59
Speaker
85% of our products would not have the beauty, the absorbability, the softness that are the characteristics of our Sabahart products. That's what we're known for. Well, that's because of the hand-spun cotton. If we replace that with machine-spun cotton, we've got a different product. So we really try to, well, we try to get the income comparable, obviously for time.
00:14:28
Speaker
And we just try to give respect to the women as spinners and to praise them for their quality of spinning. So we really try to incentivize high quality and reward high quality and give status to great spinners. We're often called a weaving company and then I say, oh,
00:14:47
Speaker
But we're spinning and weaving. We don't want to forget the spinning. Can you explain a little bit about why there is that discrepancy in pay for labor between spinning and weaving? Is it a gender wage gap? Is it because the spinning is more tedious than the weaving? You know, I think it's both. I think hand spinning is extremely tedious and extremely time consuming.
00:15:14
Speaker
You know, one of the innovations or one of the passions of Mahatma Gandhi in India, of course, was to introduce the charka spinning mill, which was still hand spinning, but increasing the productivity. So it still had a lot of the softness, but it made it more productive because I think he, and you know, India in general,
00:15:37
Speaker
realize the productivity of hands spinning on our drops, though, if that labor is paid on a livable way, it makes the products extremely expensive. And the way of innovation and increasing productivity is difficult if you want to keep the same amount of softness to the product. Whereas the weaving, there's been huge innovation
00:16:05
Speaker
on hand, in hand weaving throughout the world. So there's some I, you know, to say why that discrepancy in innovation, is it gender based, perhaps, but what we have learned is this is just difficult. It's difficult to mechanize spinning and keep the qualities that you want. As soon as you get any mechanization, you're going to get
00:16:32
Speaker
faster rotations, more twist, and that will lead to a less soft thread. So I think, yeah, I think like you say, there's various reasons and we are struggling, I have to say, we struggle with how to enable, how to pay women more for their hand spinning and still have our products affordable. Because if our products aren't affordable, none of us
00:17:01
Speaker
None of us benefit. Yeah, it's an interesting conundrum that you can't innovate it too much to increase productivity. That would then logically increase wages, but you still need to keep the handiwork at play in order to imbue it with that physical quality of being handmade that makes it so special.
00:17:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think this probably leads right into what I want to know next, which is, is there anything unique from a technical perspective about the style of weaving in Ethiopia or the wovens that are made there? You know, I, in some ways, which is kind of a sad statement, what's unique is that there has not been much innovation and improvement of spinning and weaving equipment in Ethiopia over the years. It's still really
00:17:51
Speaker
basic. I mean in the rural areas the weavers are mostly still weaving on two harness looms which is a very tedious way to weave. What could be unique within that actually is the amount of design work if you've seen these beautiful traditional dresses that women wear that have this incredible design woven not stitched because there's a lot of embroidery but
00:18:13
Speaker
the woven designs at the ends of the fabric. It's incredible that they're doing that on two harness loom. In other countries, they might do that intricate designing on a loom that has minimum eight harnesses, if not 12, and then it would be much more efficient.
00:18:31
Speaker
So the picking up of the threads to create the design is amazing. It takes incredible eyesight, incredible commitment to perfection and quality and consistency. So I think Ethiopian weaving deserves extra attention, appreciation for what is accomplished on very traditional equipment. I think that
00:18:55
Speaker
What is good in that somehow is that though that loom is very basic in terms of weaving, and at the same time then it's pretty simple. So all weavers can repair their looms, they can make new parts, they can maintain their looms, they can pack them up.
00:19:17
Speaker
and move to a new place and set it up and start weaving kind of within a day. You know, it's a very versatile technology because it is so simple. So I think, especially in the years ago when weavers had a more, more transient life, they would, the tradition was that weavers would move around at like Easter, Christmas, New Year's.
00:19:42
Speaker
to different communities who wanted people who wanted new clothes for those special occasions. And rather than them going to the market to get the market came to them somehow, so the weavers would move around. So again, that's pretty unique. And I do think this Hans van Konten feel is unique for Ethiopian textiles. We've had many people, customers who mentioned that
00:20:10
Speaker
They've had hand weaving from other countries. They felt it and they use it. But the Ethiopian hand-woven products with its softness, it's
Artisans' Skills and Contributions
00:20:22
Speaker
unique. And that's a particular tradition you try to keep going at Sabahar? Yes. It's not just that the hand weaving, hand-speeding is unique. That employment for women is still really important. And the market value of handspun cotton
00:20:39
Speaker
is not a very high salary, returns to labor. But in rural areas, especially, women don't have other options of earning income. So like right now, we have an arrangement with more than 100 women who live in southern Ethiopia. So it's, oh gosh, I don't know, 600 kilometers south of Addis. And we send them down the really nice cotton. They spin and send it back to us.
00:21:09
Speaker
It seems kind of crazy to be doing that from such a distance, but the women really need the employment. They really need the money that they get for their work and we need the cotton. So, you know, I think we can underestimate just the value of the employment that it creates as well.
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah, this brings us to a really important topic that we haven't touched on yet. Who are the people that you and Sabahar are working with? So for our artisans, we do not actually need to train weavers. We're not starting with people. Like some companies may start and say, okay, we're going to work with youth. We'll train them how to weave. That'll be their job. We could do that, but we haven't had to.
00:21:52
Speaker
because there are still, you know, many, many, many traditional weavers, which usually means they learn from their fathers and their grandfathers. There's still a lot of traditional weavers that desperately need reliable employment. And around us, around where our center is in Adams, there's many, many weavers who are weaving in their own homes. I mean, it is rather a small piece of equipment, so they can set it up within their home.
00:22:22
Speaker
and they'll weave, but the income hasn't been reliable because as I said before, often the local customers are purchasing more ceremonial things. So it's at special events that they would buy. So that doesn't happen all the time. So their market is unreliable. So we've been very, very, very fortunate to be able to find, you know, trained weavers close to us that'll either come in and actually, you know,
00:22:51
Speaker
five days a week work at our place or they work in their own homes. We have now 50 or 60 weavers that work in their own homes. Some of them because they want to, some of them because we don't have room for everybody at Sabahar. We provide all the material and they work. So that's convenient for them too, because some of them have child, men have childcare responsibilities, so they want to work at home. So we, we drain weavers, but it's more according to what our customers want. If we need a new,
00:23:21
Speaker
kind of design, a new kind of weaving, like four harness looms or even eight harness looms for the design that our customer wants, then we'll do the training. And for women spinning, it's the same. We've never, never, never trained women to spin on a drop spindle.
Market Adaptation vs. Charity Mentality
00:23:40
Speaker
We've only trained women to spin on a spinning wheel if, because we've introduced spinning wheels, which is more efficient than a drop spindle.
00:23:49
Speaker
But the number of women around Addis and certainly in rural areas who grew up knowing how to spin, hand spin cotton from their mothers and their grandmothers is still, you know, there's still a lot of women available who desperately need employment. For the next generation, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Young women nowadays don't want to do hand spinning, so I think
00:24:17
Speaker
We will face issues as time goes by for that. But right now, like I said, we can find artisans who have the skills and we just help them become more efficient or help them improve a bit to make different designs, different products. Building on that, what would you say the goal of Sabahar is and how has it evolved over time?
00:24:39
Speaker
So, you know, Sabahar was started to support the handmade textile sector in Ethiopia. It was started with a vision or with the knowledge that hand weaving has and spinning has not received much attention from government or from other sources forever, I can say.
00:25:00
Speaker
but that it's a very rooted activity in society and has the capacity to produce beautiful and functional products and should continue. You know, I think we really believed there's value in making things by hand and the value for the producer, but also value for the consumer who could feel it. So that's why we were started was why Sabahar was created was to ensure
00:25:29
Speaker
reliable and fair income for spinners and weavers for their textile products, for their work. What we have really focused on obviously learning over the years, we're 20 years old this year, is who are our customers and what do they want? Because one thing we do not want is people buying our things out of guilt or charity.
00:25:53
Speaker
or feeling sad for the artisans. I think there's too much of that in Ethiopia and maybe other parts of the world. And I think that's really devaluing of craft, devaluing of things that are made by hand, devaluing of that knowledge that has come from generations of actual experience and wisdom, not from a classroom, but no less important and much more adaptive and flexible.
00:26:22
Speaker
So we really wanted to preserve that. But what I've learned, what we've learned over the years is that we have to be careful that we don't focus on preserving handmade textiles just for the reason of preserving them. You know, the question is, who are we preserving them for? If the activity is keeping people poor, that's not what we're trying to do. That's not a goal. That's not a
00:26:47
Speaker
a good goal, a viable goal. We want to preserve skills that are valued and valuable for society in a sustainable way. So I think that's led us to create other products. So look at our customers and really that's led us to our biggest product in terms of export and local sales or towels. Well, when we started, I don't know if anybody was making hand-woven towels in Ethiopia.
00:27:16
Speaker
because the products were more scarves and shawls and these blankets and dresses and things, which are functional, but perhaps not daily, which are functional. And what we learned is that if we can get really focused on products that can be functional daily in people's lives, like towels and napkins that people use a lot, that our employment creation, i.e. our sales, are much more reliable. I mean, I wouldn't have realized that at the beginning,
00:27:46
Speaker
But because we were really focused on sustainable employment and sustainable skills and respectful purchasing, appreciative purchasing, not charity purchasing, I think, it has led us to make products that actually, you know, people can use whether you're in Canada or Ethiopia or wherever.
00:28:08
Speaker
you can use these products in your home. I didn't think of that at the beginning of 20 years ago, honestly. Wow, so much to unpack there. This is a topic that I know you and I have discussed a lot, and it's something that I hope to keep diving into in this podcast about preserving ancient craft and how much there is to think about there.
00:28:30
Speaker
It's, you know, when you hear that phrase, it's often presented as an assumed net benefit to whoever's hearing it, that it's, you know, a given that it's a positive thing. And while there are certainly a lot of worthwhile reasons to preserve an ancient craft, you're saying that there's a lot more to it than just that. And there's a lot more intention involved in ensuring that the impact is positive.
00:28:51
Speaker
of preserving that craft. It begs that question for whom are we preserving it, which is such a compelling train of thought. And you've said to me once that romanticizing can be a disservice. Right. Right. It kind of just it draws that line between charity versus utility in terms of artisan craft. Yes.
00:29:11
Speaker
What would you say? I know that's a lot because there's so much meat in this topic, but I think I really would like to keep going along the lines of this charity mentality. How would you say that that really do values the products that the artisans you work with and artisans around Ethiopia are making? You know, I have to admit that I had that mentality when I started especially. I came from a background, like I mentioned, with development work.
00:29:39
Speaker
which despite all of the rhetoric about empowerment, self-reliance, enabling self-reliance and people to be free from dependence on just outside assistance, despite all that rhetoric in the NGO world, I don't think the NGO world has come as far as it could have. And I guess that's one of the reasons I left it. And I don't want to
00:30:08
Speaker
sound critical of all NGO work and assistance because a lot of it's really, really important. But it affects the way you think about things. So I'll just give you an example. When I started and I knew a lot of women in a certain area of Addis that we had supported in various initiatives when I was with Oxfam. So I knew these women and it was
00:30:31
Speaker
Great. And then when I started Sabahar, I knew that they could spin on drop spindles. So we gave them silk, at that time it was silk cocoons and whatever, and they were spinning for us. But now I was with Sabahar and the quality was really not good. And then, you know, we did trading and they had every
00:30:55
Speaker
training and equipment that could enable good quality. That was for sure. But the quality wasn't good. And I was always like, Oh, she's a poor woman. You know, it's not very good, but we want to help her. So I was buying it or we were buying it as a company. But I hired a quality manager in the department who did not come from an NGO background. And
00:31:19
Speaker
She just looked at the quality of that thread and said, Kathy, why are we buying that? That's not good. And I said, yeah, but she's, you know, I feel sorry for these women. And she said, no, we're a company. So she refused to buy from a number of women for like, she even, you know, three weeks, we're not buying from you until your quality is good.
00:31:41
Speaker
And oh my gosh, I felt so guilty and blah, blah, blah. But you know, after three weeks, those same women came back with perfect thread. Perfect. So I learned such a big lesson is that, you know, we can transfer our, our kind of pity or unknowingly our pity can lead to actions that actually undermines the good value of work that can be done. So I learned a big lesson. So that's what we try to do all the time.
00:32:10
Speaker
is to say our artisans have the ability to make beautiful products. And if they don't, we can provide training. Or if they need new equipment, we'll provide new equipment. Or if it's not really suited, they don't have a passion for it, that's fine, then they should do something else. But the ones that really want to do this and we're supporting, they can do good quality. And in order for us to sell, we are a for-profit company,
00:32:38
Speaker
We need a certain standard of quality. So it shifts your thinking.
Quality and Professionalism in Craftsmanship
00:32:44
Speaker
One thing it does is that it means we need our producers to understand who our customers are because they need to understand that we're not just being nasty to say, no, we need high quality product. We're representing the people who want to pay this and who pays our salaries, our customers. So we try to share like as we can videos.
00:33:08
Speaker
pictures, stories of our customers with our producers, with our artisans. If any of our buyers come to Ethiopia or our local customers have the time.
00:33:20
Speaker
We really love them to come and talk to the weavers and tell them what they like about the products and tell them what they don't like about the products. But I have seen the impact of that kind of interaction so many times. Once our artisans realize that those customers love what they're doing and they need a certain quality, I tell you what, our artisans, the quality will improve like a hundred percent.
00:33:48
Speaker
This is something that I have seen time and time again in different organizations and cooperatives and such that, especially with companies, organizations that have such strong marketing teams, there's so much care going into educating the consumer, you know, with the zeitgeist that we are in right now about focusing on sustainability and ethics and all of that, there's so much energy put into educating customers about artisans, about makers who have these really compelling stories.
00:34:17
Speaker
But it's such a disservice to those artisans and makers when they are unable to receive that reciprocal education. And I've seen it be so impactful at Sabahar and different organizations that work with artisans when you are able to introduce them to their customer, whether that's, you know, literally or metaphorically show that their products are appreciated because
00:34:38
Speaker
That's something that a machine cannot replicate dedication to and care for quality. You know, if somebody isn't really recognizing or feeling like maybe the cotton that they're spinning is somehow going to be turned into something beautiful that somebody will care about at all, why would they want to make it better quality if somebody's going to pay for it, which circles around to what you're saying about pushing artisans to do their best, not just for you, but also for themselves.
00:35:05
Speaker
Because at face value, it sounds a little bit like sink or swim, which sounds a little bit harsh. But really, it's so much more intentional than that. It's respectful, leaving space and room for improvement, taking them seriously as artisans, as humans, as adults, capable of doing better.
00:35:20
Speaker
Exactly. And if the passion is there, we can really see the difference with our, especially our weavers, if the weaving is coming from their heart. We work with some weavers who did not learn from their father or their grandfather, but they intentionally went out when they were young men to learn weaving. So just like people in Canada or anywhere in the world, they have a passion for a profession.
00:35:44
Speaker
and they want to go out and do it. So we have to get away from this idea too that, oh, they're just weaving or they're just spinning because there's nothing else for them to do. No, actually most of our weavers love it. And when we give them the chance to say, here, take some threads and create something new, you know, they love it.
00:36:02
Speaker
and they're amazing because they understand the relationship between threads and color and design and space and so i think you know if somehow we could share that perception of handmade textiles
00:36:17
Speaker
with our customers, then we're on the same page. It's hard. I can tell you it's hard to share that. Yeah. Yeah. And you, you mentioned professionals that being able to do this, it's a degree of design, it's craftsmanship. It's all of these really esteemed skills that are required to make this thing. But professionalism is a little bit tricky in the artisan space because oftentimes artisans are a bit in the lower echelons of society.
00:36:42
Speaker
Yes. When it comes to the income that they make, the conditions in which they work, all of that stuff, how do you see that not just among your employees at Sabahar, but also weavers in Addis? So, I mean, you're right, definitely in Ethiopia, artisans, not just spinners and weavers, but also potters and blacksmiths and basket weavers. If there any of these artisanal activities are given very low status and
00:37:09
Speaker
I guess there's probably lots of reasons for that. One of them is just that it provided unreliable income. So nobody really wanted, or very few wanted to stay in that profession. But again, what, you know, what we tried to do is, is let the customer, let the sales, let the, yeah, let, let our customers show or prove to our artisans that the value of their work, that their skills and their passion they put into their work is really appreciated. Maybe not everybody. Okay. That's fine.
00:37:38
Speaker
But that we are, you know, the role of Sabahar is to find those people that appreciate their beautiful work and to provide that linkage so that they can, you know, pay for it. I think paying for it. I mean, I think that's one of the challenges because there is also a perception
00:37:55
Speaker
you know, that incomes and, you know, like cost of living in Ethiopia, for example, is low. So these things should be priced low. Yes, I value the work, but I didn't think I should have to pay that much. So we have some issues around price, not a lot, but we're very conscious. And so we, we try to deal with that with knowledge, for example. Okay. So this towel seems expensive, but let me tell you how many hours of work
00:38:24
Speaker
that went into that, whether it was production of cotton, the cleaning of the cotton, dyeing, weaving, whatever. But I think that we don't want to devalue the sector ourselves.
00:38:36
Speaker
by making it just a cheap product. You know, the price of things does relate to the value given to things in our societies, I think. So we have to be careful of that. But also, inflation in Ethiopia in the last year has been probably more than 30-35%. And that's really hard to deal with. When the people we employ
00:39:00
Speaker
They don't have savings. They don't have other sources of income. There's no safety net like welfare or social insurance or medical. We provide medical coverage, but there's no state-run medical service. So we feel very responsible for the livelihoods of our artisans, our employees. So if inflation's at 35%, we feel like, oh my goodness, we should increase salaries by 35%.
Customer Base and Market Success
00:39:25
Speaker
Well, that's really hard to pass on to our customers.
00:39:29
Speaker
It's challenging. It's really challenging. Yeah. And speaking of your customers, you described earlier that part of what you do at Sabahar is reacting to and adapting to consumer demand in terms of
00:39:43
Speaker
design and form and what do your customers want? How can we utilize the skills here in order to execute that in our own interesting way? Who are those customers? And what is it like for the artisans to be adapting to those demands if they are adapting at all? So a lot of our customers overseas, like our biggest market is in the US. And it's a range of kind of shops.
00:40:10
Speaker
Uh, I'm sure they're all more, our customers are more affluent people because for example, towels and napkins are expensive compared to what's available made by machine and you know, whatever. So they're probably more, they're more affluent people and probably a bit more aware. And that's why they intentionally buy things of, you know, that are certified fair trade that have traceable production processes, but even locally.
00:40:37
Speaker
You know, locally, we have a shop as well. And locally, I mean in Addis Ababa. And we are just increasing and increasing our diversity of customers that we get right there in Addis. And I think it's partly even in Ethiopia, you know, the whole climate change, the whole issue of sustainability, of our consumption.
00:40:59
Speaker
how we are, you know, this throwaway culture is just not sustainable. Plus, the importance of livelihoods for people that don't have other sources of income is becoming so known. Our products are really appealing to a broader range of people. I think 10 years ago, I would have said our products are really niche, kind of like I said, affluent, educated.
00:41:21
Speaker
But I feel that we're broadening our customer base a lot domestically, but also internationally. And I think that that's, I can't take the credit for that. I think that's just the global understanding is we're going in, I hope I think we're going in the right direction of saying, you know, let's walk the talk. Like let's make intentional decisions about consumption that at least have a better chance of not hurting the environment.
00:41:51
Speaker
and at least have a better chance of actually positively impacting some people whose livelihoods are at stake. So I'm hopeful and I have to say though, one of the indicators again locally, which I find really, really exciting, is we are now selling functional products. So that means towels, placemats, table runners, and napkins.
00:42:14
Speaker
to three of the largest hotels, and maybe I could just mention their name so they can be proud, Hyatt Regency, the Hilton, and the Ramada, which are three hotels in Addis who are buying our products on a regular basis. And to me, that is just so exciting because it means they have the social consciousness to purchase things that are having such a positive impact in the country where the
00:42:42
Speaker
they're based in the city that they're based plus they value their own name so much that they want to be associated with us that they want their customers to come and say not only oh wow the Hyatt is really beautiful hotel
00:42:58
Speaker
But they also want their customers to say, my gosh, this is a handmade napkin. That shows so much respect for local traditions. So I am so excited about those relationships that we have right there in
Global Recognition of Craftsmanship
00:43:13
Speaker
Addis. Wow, that is so exciting. Congratulations.
00:43:16
Speaker
Well, congratulations to them too, you know? Congratulations to the management for the decisions that were made to say, because my goodness, they could get nylon napkins from China so much cheaper, for sure, for sure, for sure. And they could wash them in hot water and use bleach.
00:43:32
Speaker
and they can't do that with our napkins. So congratulations to them that they are researching their options and they're making a committed decision and a commitment to, like I say, so many good things. That's awesome. My final question for you is what do you want listeners to walk away from this conversation knowing about Sabahar, about artisanship, about weaving in Ethiopia or beyond?
00:43:56
Speaker
Oh, gosh. Well, I think I've said a lot. I hope and some of it might stick with people who are listening. I just, you know, I mean, I go back and forth to Canada and often when I'm in Canada, I go to Michaels. You know Michaels. You have Michaels in the States. Yeah, we do. Oh my gosh.
00:44:16
Speaker
And you know, I'm overwhelmed. I mean, I'm obviously, I mean, I would consider myself a crafty person. I love making things with my hands. I love creating things. I mean, that's my passion for sure, outside of Savar. But I walk into Michael's and I feel like, oh my goodness, I could make anything. I could just pick up this kit or that kit or that yarn or that book.
00:44:39
Speaker
or that package or Minaman Minaman, I could make anything. I am such a crafts person. And sometimes I think, I wonder if people are able, because we've made crafting so accessible to people, which is great. But I really hope that doesn't take away from the knowledge that there are craft people in the world that don't have Michaels, that don't have kits, that don't have instruction booklets.
00:45:05
Speaker
don't have YouTube videos that tell you how to do things that they actually make beautiful things because they saw their grandmother doing it they saw their father doing it they have a passion it's almost in their DNA that they can understand how to create beautiful things with their hands and I just reflect on that sometimes you know maybe a takeaway is
00:45:28
Speaker
Please let everybody go to Michael's or whatever, make things because our world needs us to be conscious and to make more things creative and functional things ourselves. But also don't lose sight that there's people in the world that that is their livelihood and their gift.
00:45:48
Speaker
being able to make things is so rare and is disappearing and precious and we should just be trying to support those people not only because it's good for the world the crafting the world a handmade world but it honestly it does feel better when you could feel that the love and the patience and the
00:46:12
Speaker
attention to detail that has gone into handmade products. It does look better in our house. It does feel better on our bodies and around our necks or whatever. I truly believe that and I truly believe that
00:46:27
Speaker
through handmade products. You know, it's relationship. We need relationships in this world. Our world is like so full of conflict. And I just believe that sharing of our gifts through handmade things, it's a little way of saying, ah.
00:46:43
Speaker
I have some relationships with people that made these wherever they are. Yeah, it's a really interesting historical moment to talk about crafting in that sense, coming out of COVID when so many people picked up different crafts and probably don't touch them anymore. But all of the runs on crafting supplies, all of the runs on powdered yeast from people making bread.
00:47:08
Speaker
I mean, I personally just picked up cross stitching as a little hobby on the side and took myself to Michael's. So, you know, your message really rings home that, you know, I don't know if this is a hobby that, you know, I'll continue for the rest of my life, probably just for a couple of more months, but it is such a privilege to be able to pick up something and make
00:47:29
Speaker
it with your hands lovingly and thoughtfully and it's really not to stir up any kind of pity for people who don't have Michaels and can't just pick up cross stitching. There are a lot of incredibly skilled embroiderers around the world who
00:47:44
Speaker
inherited their skills from generations of embroiderers. And that is the foundation of not only their livelihood, but also cultural expression. There's so much there. So to be able to just pick it up and do it as a gift and then to share it with another, that's even more special. I love that message. I think that's wonderful. And I hope that this episode inspires our listeners to go maybe
00:48:08
Speaker
pick up a craft or pick something out that they had maybe set down a little while ago. Thank you so much for joining this episode. It was wonderful to dive into all these topics with you. Oh, thank you. It was wonderful from my side, too, to share it with you. We'll see you next time on Wide Eye. Bye.