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Ranking the apex tier of MLS western conference contenders with Charles Boehm
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National soccer writer Charles Boehm and friend of the show joins Jeremiah to rank the “apex tier” of Western Conference contenders and some of the picks may surprise you. The guys round it out with handicapping the Concacaf Champions Cup draw.
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Transcript
Introduction to Will Bruin as a Seattle Sounders legend
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi, I'm Will Bruin, and I was just recognized as a Seattle Sounders legend. Now I get to do voice reads for the Sounder at Heart podcast network. Here we go.
00:00:11
Speaker
Come on. Hey, O'Shaughness. Let's The Seattle Sounders have done it. MLS Cup winners. The Sounders rule the region.
00:00:43
Speaker
Ooch of a gooch! All creatures, great and small! Rothrock gonna collect it, he does just about, runs into the advertising order. Low to our left, ball goes in! Oh, what cross! And what goal! Where's my copy? got bunch of them in the car. How many do you cost them? 50 bucks.
00:01:08
Speaker
I'll deadline you.
Sponsorship by Full Pull Wines
00:01:18
Speaker
This episode of Nos Arietes is sponsored by Full Pull Wines, a Seattle-based wine retailer and proud sponsor of Nos Arietes since 2011. Full Pull was founded in 2009, is based in Seattle, and is owned and operated by longtime Sounder supporters.
00:01:32
Speaker
They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, Pacific Northwest.
Podcast Introduction with Jeremiah O'Shan and Charlie Boehm
00:01:42
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of Nos Adientes on the Sounder at Heart podcast network. Today is Monday, March 23rd, 2026. I am Jeremiah O'Shan. Joining me today is good friend of the pod, Charlie Boehm.
00:01:57
Speaker
ah Aaron is in Minnesota or is coming back, I suppose, from Minnesota where he was partying with all the Sounder at Heart people. But anyway, Charlie, how's it going?
00:02:09
Speaker
um great It's great to be here. Hopefully no no ice airport shenanigans or long TSA lines. Yeah, geez. I know, it's it's become quite a quite a thing traveling these days.
Seattle Sounders' Recent Performance and International Break
00:02:24
Speaker
ah But i thought it would be fun to, rather than break down this exhilarating 0-0 tie that the Sounders just had with Minnesota United, and we can talk a little bit about that, I suppose, but we don't need to do a whole show dedicated to...
00:02:38
Speaker
probably the least interesting game of the center season. What I thought it might be more interesting. So so far, so far. Yeah. though good Good note. Very good note. But as we go into this international break, Sounders don't play for a couple of weeks.
00:02:52
Speaker
And i wanted to kind of get your sense of you know, we last year we were doing this this thing that we called How the West Will Be Won. We haven't done that yet this year, but I thought this would be a good time to sort of do that again. And what I wanted to do is talk to you about your sort of tiering of the Western Conference and where you see teams shaking out and and where the Sounders are.
Western Conference Analysis and Sounders' Position
00:03:14
Speaker
Maybe get your assessment of of champions Champions Cup, Champions League. I don't know. One of these days, it'll feel natural to call it something. But I don't know. Conca Champions.
00:03:25
Speaker
Conca Champions, I know, is the... is It seems like that should be it, but it doesn't It mouthful, I recognize. It doesn't come naturally to me yet. Yeah, exactly. ccc just... Yeah, exactly. CCL felt so...
00:03:39
Speaker
so It's very CONCACAF to have a litany of of clumsy names for its right feature show showcase product at the club level. that's Yeah, exactly. And the brand is just so strong.
00:03:52
Speaker
One of these days, you know, and in 50 years, we'll be looking back on this and go, oh, remember when CONCACAF was struggling for brand awareness? And then they'll say, what is CONCACAF? What are you talking about?
00:04:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:06
Speaker
But anyway, anyway, ah let's, you know, so let's, let's start with the Sounders though. ah Did you, did you happen to consume any of that match?
00:04:17
Speaker
I watched long stretches of that, of that match. And my eyes didn't, didn't catch a blaze. So, um so I guess I'm, I dodged a bullet there. But, you know, I think, I,
00:04:29
Speaker
I think it's i think you had you had the resistible object meeting the movable force or whatever it is there because Minnesota just didn't want to get shelled for six again the second week in They sure did not.
Seattle Sounders' Performance in CCC and League Management
00:04:42
Speaker
And Seattle had the the customary CCC hangover good reason where even even their home leg was an away leg. so So I think there was a ah real so real sense of...
00:04:54
Speaker
of um you know, unfussy satisfaction with ah a scoreless, uh, draw far from home in a, on a, on a, what I think was a, a characteristically chilly Minnesota afternoon.
00:05:06
Speaker
James, James Rodriguez ends up being, he's, he's just going to be the sideshow kind of the, the story, uh, for the subplot maybe for for Minnesota United for the foreseeable future. And I'd be very, very curious to see how that develops. He made his home debut.
00:05:22
Speaker
I think he manages, he's he's looked lively in both of his appearances so far, but it's, we just don't have much of a sense of, is does does Has he earned the coach's trust? Is he really match fit? Does he fit into anything tactically yet?
Minnesota United's Strategy and James Rodriguez's Impact
00:05:36
Speaker
So given that that that's sort of a wild card for a team in Seattle's position to have to deal with, I think you just walk away from that one feeling fine. you know there's There's one team in my lifetime that I've seen do anything more than tread water in the league and by extension the shield race while making a deep run in CCC. And that was Vancouver last year. Right. And that's yeah essentially unprecedented. It's why yes for Sorensen is to me, the the most underrated coach still, even after all the love he's gotten because they managed to do that, but that is just an extremely black Swan event. So I don't, I think, I think Brian Schmetzer and company just have to,
00:06:14
Speaker
have to take that one and and move on to the next and get to the international break, which they have with, without any more, any more injury setbacks. Yeah. And even mighty Vancouver fell at home to San Jose who, Hey, that's the Sounders just beat San Jose. So you know, it's funny. You look back at the Sounders schedule and there's some really good results. There are one losses to ah RSL who at the time it felt kind of a disappointment, but,
00:06:42
Speaker
At this point, RSL, I mean, we'll get into this, but ah RSL looks like they are a real team right now and and only getting stronger potentially. RSL are legit to me, and they they proved it again, i would say, with what they did yesterday yeah against San Diego. Now, granted, yeah everybody who's playing a CCC team on short rest right now,
00:07:02
Speaker
um sees it as an opportunity to some extent, but but you know, at least at this at the opening whistle,
Western Conference Contenders and Real Salt Lake's Potential
00:07:07
Speaker
depending on match events. And so so i give San Diego a a little bit of ah of of credit there, but ourselves just keep doing it. I mean, they're I think they're going to be a problem throughout the season. Right now they're tied with the Sounders for fifth in the West.
00:07:24
Speaker
And so if we're talking about tiers, like, i don't I don't know. I would like for my top tier to to be have less than half a dozen teams in it, but I don't know how i how to do that easily because both those teams to me look like they're going to be they're in it to win it and they are well-crafted, have a strong sense of self and and are showing it thus far on the pitch.
00:07:49
Speaker
Well, let's, you know, rather than than beat around the bush, let's just get into it. And we may as well start at the top. who So if you're going to assess the sort of apex contenders, is that right? epex contenders ah In the West, who who do you have in that group in no particular order necessarily?
00:08:10
Speaker
Well, I think in the early weeks of the season, we were talking about sort of three in terms of LAFC, Vancouver, and San Diego. And that was a combination of what, you know, what they did last season. Uh, and then what, how they were managing to extend the best elements of the, of last season. Those are two teams, those three teams that, that were consistent, um, that were but good, both in the regular season and, and clearly, you know, we're, we're also a problem in the knockout environment of the playoffs and,
00:08:37
Speaker
and and had momentum down the stretch last season and and had continued it into the the new year. But on this by the same token, I think any of these teams going to talk about, there's there's no one you you'd say are quite even at Miami level in terms of, um and even, you know, if this is MLS, so even Miami has flaws, right? But all these teams have some nagging doubt that at least I look at it and have to harbor because LAFC are,
00:09:05
Speaker
They're alone in first place. They're one of only two teams that have yet to lose. Make sure I got that right. In in the league. Sorry, three teams. So only three and undefeated teams, San Diego, LAFC, and Nashville. Nashville, kind of the surprise of the group a little bit.
00:09:21
Speaker
Yeah. for Western Conference alumni, Nashville, and of course, you know tearing up the East. but then And then they're they're the only team left that hasn't allowed a goal in league play, which is quite impressive.
00:09:32
Speaker
All that with all those words I just said. LAFC is the only team. LAFC, that's right. Sorry. right And LAFC has yet to concede. And after all that I've just said, you would think you'd be talking about them as a little bit more of a a Colossus.
00:09:45
Speaker
But there's already questions. So Mark Dos Santos, who was a logical successor to C. Trundolo, they've promoted the assistant from within. And in doing so, they've endorsed their their culture and what they've built and what they established already.
00:09:58
Speaker
But we had his, we had his, well we we have some of lower division time that we could look at and, and but but more pertinently his, his ill-fated stint in charge of the Whitecaps a couple of years back.
00:10:09
Speaker
And there's some, there were some, some questions to, to be that, you know, built into that. And I think we have questions now and I think Matt Doyle has, has talked about this. I've written about this a little bit.
00:10:20
Speaker
He's not considering that the, the, a very deep well-crafted roster that he's been, had prepared for him by John Thornton. Dos Santos is is not really doing the levels of rotation that I would have expected from a team with with their reserves of talent. they've had they and I think you see the depth and the quality in depth with with the the role players keep stepping up. David Martinez has produced a couple clutch goals.
00:10:45
Speaker
They've gotten game winners and game-changing goals from midfielders like Mark Delgado and Matthew Schornier and Steven Moustachio. But the big guns, the the first two names we talked about with LAFC are Sun Hyung-min and Denny Buonga, and they've both played a lot. Now, Dos Santos has alluded in general in terms of that. I was on some of his his media availabilities earlier on the CCC run, and he was talking about how, in the context specifically of going to Honduras for their first match to play Real España in CCC, and how it wasn't just that guys like Hugo Lloris and Sonny were
00:11:22
Speaker
were going to be able to handle an away day in Honduras. It was that they wanted to be on the field and he would have a problem with with his stars if he wasn't playing them regularly. So I'm sure, I know he, like so many coaches want to have us a trusted rotation, a core group of 12 to 15 players that they can trust that are got create a rhythm on the pitch together.
00:11:43
Speaker
But there's already some some legginess showing. Sun is yet to score in league play. um they're They're already getting into sort of a grinding, a grinded out mode, which, again, considering the wealth of Tallamy as it is disposal, I think that's a little bit of a red flag. And so so I have reservations, despite the the strong resume that LAFC has produced thus far. And I think you could say something somewhat comparable about Vancouver.
00:12:11
Speaker
And the Sounders are the ones who who inflicted it, right? The biggest questions come from that leg one Seattle win in at BC Place where a previously undefeated, unblemished, I think, team were almost unblemished. And Vancouver had just cratered, right? They just came apart over 90 minutes.
00:12:31
Speaker
against a clever, well-organized, well-prepared opponent. And so that kind of, that that nags at me a little bit that they're, I'm not sure that they have um the depth that LAFC does.
00:12:43
Speaker
I think there's just so much happening in the background in Vancouver with the stadium drama, the knock-on effects, which Seattle and others have also dealt with in terms of what being a World Cup venue does to your your club calendar.
00:12:58
Speaker
and the disruptions there. And then of course the the, the specter of relocation is still there. It doesn't seem imminent, but it's certainly floating around the background. And, and again, this is MLS, right? So what, what the Whitecaps did last season was so surprising, so impressive, so unprecedented in terms of being so good across so many competitions.
00:13:17
Speaker
This is not a league where that type of performance is, is regularly repeated much less year over year. So that's, I guess that would be my sort of doubt about, Vancouver.
00:13:28
Speaker
And then so along the same lines to to talk about that first trio, San Diego, i think they were valiant. They were super impressive in their bravery and their commitment in their series against Toluca.
00:13:40
Speaker
That first leg 3-2 win in San Diego was one of the most remarkable games I've ever watched, CONCACAF or otherwise. But it all came crashing down last week at 8,000 plus feet in Toluca.
00:13:51
Speaker
And I think we saw, and again, it's maybe it's it's unfair to to judge them against the the class team in in Mexico right now. Liga Mekis is back-to-back defending champions. But some some concerns that have kind of been brewing about San Diego's depth or lack thereof, their fidelity to the play out the back possession heavy model at all costs, and the fact that they're effectively playing with, in but and and MLS terms, they're playing with one or two hands tied behind their back because They've exiled their most talented player, Chucky Lozano. They've made clear that he's not in their plans, despite him being by far their highest paid player.
00:14:28
Speaker
their best recognized player and one of their DPs. And so they they're they've just got a sunk cost right now with one of the DP slots and they were only using two DP slots to begin with because they've been on the two four roster construction model.
00:14:41
Speaker
So i have I said on another pod recently that I have this, maybe there's a sinking sneaking suspicion or guesstimate that that San Diego maybe are further ahead of where they thought they'd be at this point and their's in their cycle of building up and expansion life.
00:14:57
Speaker
And maybe they've decided to be faithful to the bit master plan rather than to to shift things around. But this is a team that suddenly finds itself in a championship contention window. yeah And I don't know that they're i don't know that they they' are doing everything they could be doing to maximize that. And I think that could become a concern sooner or later.
00:15:16
Speaker
Well, you know, i just talk about San Diego a little bit. You know, I i watched most of that game against ah RSL yesterday, and it struck me that for large portions of that match, it seemed like they were just almost toying with RSL and ready to pull. Like they were just like one play away from putting the game away.
00:15:35
Speaker
and then then they end up giving up a late goal and... I mean, there was a scenario where there where that they get zero out of that game. And i and it you know it does kind of remind me of that that what happened against them with Toluca, where for as impressive as that first leg was, and they were 3-1, they were situation where...
00:15:58
Speaker
they were in a situation where 3-1 is a very, you know, you can manage that lead, especially if you have all your personnel. And then their young center back, who everyone who who is probably one of the top young talents in the league, makes a frankly unconscionable decision to commit a handball offense on a ball that's going in the net anyway.
00:16:21
Speaker
And so they give up this goal, which you were maybe you were going to give the gu up the goal anyway, but you certainly didn't have to play the second leg without one of your best defenders. and And it just seems like those are the little moments where it's like that's the difference between a championship team and a team that's just a lot of fun to watch and really exciting.
00:16:39
Speaker
And, you know, the like the RSL game was in this in the same way that – you know They were a lot of fun to watch. They were pinging the ball around, and then all of a sudden RSL equalizes through a kind of like grindy ah play, and and they're walking away with one point. and they That was kind of how last year... They can play with anyone, but they can also you know give it away just as easily.
00:17:06
Speaker
Yeah. It's, uh, they let ah are still hang around and were punished for it. And, and they're the small margins. I mean, most, I think, or at least a big chunk of the listeners probably can remember specific details of, of Seattle's 2022 CCL run. Right.
00:17:21
Speaker
And so many small margin moments, high leverage, small margin where something, something had to go right. And it did, or, or, so or disaster was ah averted. Right. And, and, uh,
00:17:33
Speaker
you know Christian Roldan made so many plays in that in that championship run. And there's all these little moments where where this the the tiny little thing maybe is what makes the difference in beating a an elite opponent.
00:17:46
Speaker
And 3-1 to three two without your best defender. And you saw it like the loss of Manigua had this cascading effect everywhere across their team that made that made me sort of that was like my real red alert like okay wow the depth is a real problem here like i love what they're i love that they're digging up kids from other teams mls next pro squads and giving them contracts and rolling them out and starting lineup on opening night which is what they did from us this is sort of like oh hell yeah that's great you know the quakes don't even know that they've got talent on their second team and and same thing picking it up and and plugging it right in right so love that but at some point
00:18:24
Speaker
At some point, there's maybe a little bit, and and I've written you know glowing profile or two about San Diego and and Tyler Heaps and those involved. But at some point, I think that if it hasn't already happened, there'll be a little bit of self-reflection at the risk of using of delving into the problematic sport of bullfighting.
00:18:43
Speaker
You know, you you hear that, you know, there's a concept of the matador, right? And and in in Spanish and and Mexican and other soccer cultures, the term sometimes gets tossed around in the context of the matador is the assassin, right? That's the final blow. That's the killer in the box.
00:19:00
Speaker
when I look at San Diego FC, really there's only one, right? It's Anders Dreyer. He is the difference maker. He is that the the elite player that they have, and especially in the final third.
00:19:11
Speaker
he He produces these incredible goals, right? And he's he's he can dish the ball as well and make the final pass too. But if he gets marked out of the game or or is isn't quite on it or things just aren't clicking, who who then so steps up for them? And I think they would have hoped that Marcus and Vartsen would be that guy.
00:19:27
Speaker
you know maybe someone like Alex Mighton, but that there just hasn't been that the same level. so So when you drop from, and great teams have to have to get results with their second or third or even fourth option in a given position or a given role, right? And I don't think San Diego has shown us that they can do that because again,
00:19:45
Speaker
The DPs, it's possible to succeed in MLS, maybe even in CCC without your your premium roster slot players performing at a high level and setting the tone and producing.
00:19:57
Speaker
But it's very, very difficult. And they're not even using all those slots at the moment. Yeah, I mean, and not not to take anything away from Anders Dreyer, who is... Great.
00:20:07
Speaker
Like continuing to special player who who might be one of the, I mean, if you look at the cost per production might be the best DP acquisition in league history. i don't mean, I don't even yeah is a, c mvp I would say for last year and so far, maybe even this year too.
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah. ah But, ah you know, he but he's just a guy. He's one player. And, you know, there were moments like and now I don't know, I look at him and, he you know, he when he chips the the goalie on the i mean, it wasn't like a huge chip. But when he scored that goal, I was like, man, he just makes that look so easy.
00:20:43
Speaker
Wouldn't it be great to have a player like that? And and it felt like San Diego was just going to run away with that game at that point. But. Anyone else? So, okay, you we've you've listed these three teams. You've also shown that they have some some flaws. or Is there anyone else in your sort of apex tier of teams?
00:21:01
Speaker
I mean, I can't, I mean, it's a little surreal for me to say these words, but after what they did in Vancouver on Saturday, was it right? The San Jose earthquakes have entered this chat.
00:21:12
Speaker
mean, and that's like, I mean, you're right. Those of us who've been watching the Western conference for a while know how bizarre that might sound to someone just a few months back. Right. But year two under Bruce arena, they've made Big strides, everything that he's been saying in public, everything that he told me when we did a sit down in in the Coachella area during preseason is coming to pass.
00:21:37
Speaker
He's been saying they're go they're a much better defensive team this year. Their starting points are much more advanced than last year. ah Many ah ah others with who have a data-centered point of view on the game will discuss there how how much how much behind they were results wise their underlying numbers last season right they were um they lost games they shouldn't have they drew games they should have won and uh and it's like it's all sort of coming together now and the idea of addition by subtraction which of course we hear that that's a kind of a sports cliche at this point but it appears to be valid in the case of joseph martinez uh and chicho arango leaving the and I want to, so before you move on, I want to focus on that point though. Cause I, think a lot of us observing this team looked at, okay, they lost. i think it was, I think I just read this today. 44 goal contributions between those two and Christian as Espinosa, you could argue those were their three best defensive players. I don't think anyone's going to argue that they wouldn't be better off of Espinosa if,
00:22:38
Speaker
Have you heard the story that apparently the deadline they missed was because his option needed to be picked up at mid season and they just didn't know. yeah Yeah. They just didn't know.
00:22:51
Speaker
someone Someone dropped the ball, and if and and you can, speaking of addition by subtraction, you can go back and look at the timing of certain front office staff and their departure to do a little bit of, yes, admittedly circumstantial, but from what and I understand, accurate speculation about who at least was was assigned responsibility within the organization for all that. So Bruce, it has to be pointed out, Bruce Arena is both GM and or mean maybe director of soccer or something, but he is essentially the CSO. He's the CSO. coach
00:23:26
Speaker
which is only a few of those are left in MLS. Greg Berhalter is another one in Chicago. It's tough job, but I think you see there why he' he's still in in a position to to demand that level of ah authority and and control over things. And sure enough, I mean, another remarkable thing about these quakes, they are, Timo Werner, their showpiece guy, their difference maker,
00:23:52
Speaker
essentially wasn't around for any of preseason. they were giving him, there's the usual paperwork stuff. They're also giving him extra time because he and his wife just had a baby last month, the first child. And so he's playing catch and they are,
00:24:07
Speaker
they've allowed They're so good as a collective that they vote that he has the time and the luxury of working his way up rather than you know sort of being a savior. And as Bruce had said to me in preseason with some pride, they're a domestic heavy team. This is a team that's that's got a bunch of Americans and Canadians on it, bunch of what we would maybe call lunch pail guys who are not necessarily perceived to be stars or elite players in the league, but are are reaching a higher level or their highest level that we've seen from them thus far in the system and in in under Bruce Arena. So that's very impressive too. I mean, they're getting they're getting important minutes and contributions out of super draft guys and waivers guys. and And this is all before we even get into a whole other topic, which is...
00:24:50
Speaker
you know They've been one of the more underperforming academies if you look at market size and quality of talent pool the youth level versus what actually makes it to the first team. I've said this before. as ah As a Bay Area native, this doesn't surprise me, but you could make a you could probably make a a legitimate MLS playoff contending team out of players who came out of the so the Earthquakes catchment area who ah so You can even use players who never entered the earthquakes developmental pipeline and you can make a very good team out of these players. I mean, it's wild to think about these players that you come up and you're like, wait a minute, that guy grew up in San Ramon. What the hell? Like he never even, you know, like, like just to use an example, like Sebastian Leggett grew up in Santa Clara
00:25:43
Speaker
never touched the earthquakes. I don't think developmental pipeline. Uh, this is a, yeah, I was an older player, but, uh, you know, there there's countless examples of that, but anyway, they, they are, I think a story that a lot of people are still sleeping on last year to your point, you know, they had a expected goal difference last year of 9.84, which put them,
00:26:05
Speaker
ah seventh in the league, which was one spot behind the Sounders and their actual, they, they underperformed their goal different, their expected goal difference by 13 goals, ah which is,
00:26:18
Speaker
which was the fourth worst in the league. And the teams worse than them were Atlanta, DCU, and Montreal, which sort of illustrates the degree to which they underperformed last year. Like none of those teams were even close to playoff contenders.
00:26:31
Speaker
And, you know, they were, they did they make the playoffs? They did make the playoffs, right? they They were in it right to the end, but they did not. Oh, they finished tied on points and they they lost out to RSL, if I remember correctly. ah But yeah, and you look at who they replaced. you know We were talking about the addition by subtraction. The players that they replaced Arango and Martinez with are not...
00:26:54
Speaker
Expected to carry the same offensive load, but they are doing yeoman's work defensively. Preston Judd, who is a quietly efficient player, and Nico Sikiras, who is they're both doing the work that they they're actually running. They're actually doing some of the defensive work that those two just were not.
00:27:13
Speaker
either capable or willing to do. And all of a sudden they are one of the best defensively teams in the league. They look much more like a classic Bruce arena team and less like kind of the, the, you know, freewheeling club that they were, but it's, it's kind of funny to remember that Bruce arena, I took over a team that was one of the worst defensive teams in MLS, maybe the worst defensive team in MLS history.
00:27:38
Speaker
ah Just absolute disaster defensively. And and i think understandably last year he focused on sort of fixing the offense. But ah you know they I think you're right to put them in this tier, at least right now. I mean, they they're their one losses to the Sounders, and i think any reasonable person will say that they deserved more than they got out of that game.
00:28:01
Speaker
and And when you watch them play, they are, and I mean, they they were pretty dominant for long stretches against Seattle, right? Yeah. And just yeah didn't get the the killer touch. But this is what whatever whatever ah image in your mind you have of how Bruce's teams play, because he's had he's had pragmatic teams that are sort of not a joy to watch. But this team is fun. Like I hey they're i would say they're on my list of sort of aesthetic teams that I gravitate towards just when I'm looking to watch a game as a neutral because um they're connecting passes, they get forward, they they make decisions at speed, the interplay, the interchange is is at a high level for it being' still being marked.
00:28:44
Speaker
This team is balling. So, you know again, I think... And you could you could raise questions about whether they have the horses to to keep pace with the elite over the long term. And I'd be interested to see if they spend some money maybe in the summer, if they try and and upgrade the squad.
00:28:59
Speaker
One of Bruce's real superpowers that it wasn't until, you know, as the league evolved around him, he turned out to have this knack for, he can still connect with young guys and almost everybody who ever played for Bruce just raves about him. They they they have like a...
00:29:16
Speaker
or ah an authentic love and respect for him as ah as a leader of humans. But he also seems to be able to speak owner, right? He he speaks boomer. So his legacy at New England, whatever you want to say or or not say about the kind of contentious circumstances, shall we say, of his departure, he the fundamental difference between the Rebs before and after Bruce is that they are now considered an elite team in terms of their ambition, their investment.
00:29:43
Speaker
Their training facility is state of the art. They're trying to get a downtown stadium. They go out and pay for players, right? They they have an elite tent pole in Carlos Hill. He's already getting some of the same stuff and he's made a point of noting You know, ownership has supported us. They've upgraded the the everything from the cafeteria to the training facilities to the playing surface of the both the the practice fields and the the the the stadium, PayPal Park.
00:30:11
Speaker
they are so I mean, they're still behind in terms of the infrastructure stuff that that maybe Seattle and other teams kind of take for granted at this point. But he knows how to get commitment from ownership as well. And I think that's something to watch in the in the medium term here.
00:30:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that is that is probably his most remarkable thing is that San Jose for a long time, forever, frankly, has been considered a team who cut corners and did everything they could to spend as little money as possible. And just the fact that they were ah place that could attract a team overrunner was itself pretty remarkable.
00:30:47
Speaker
And, yeah you know... i Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but you just reminded me. I i um i wrote a ah feature for MLSSoccer.com leading into the Seattle Quakes match, and Bruce was very generous with his time. He he and I chatted for almost an hour, 1v1, during preseason. um his he was He was, aside from a few of the the the droll, sarcasm sarcastic quips that you you expect from him, right? Yeah.
00:31:16
Speaker
And it's true. I should be honored that he deigned to send some of those in my direction. But he was a really great company, a great conversation. He had said a couple of things that that stuck with me. He said about the quakes specifically, he said, this is a different challenge than anything I've had. When I came in, I saw an organization that is not prepared to win.
00:31:36
Speaker
It's not a priority. And I think we're making that better. I didn't come to San Jose just to lose soccer games. I think they've been pretty stagnant over a number of years and sometimes accept mediocrity. So you've got to try to inspire them. So you've got to inspire them to try to achieve more. So in a way, maybe I can have some leadership value in that regard and try to motivate people to be as good as they can be in their positions. That's not only downstairs in the building, it's upstairs as well, from sales to marketing, to how you run everything to facilities, all those things out of.
00:32:02
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's, I i respect that. I am, no, I'm just curious. So one of the things, I had just listened to an interview that he did on Scuffed, where he, you know, it's it's interesting because he goes between almost feeling offended at the question and, but also giving an honest, like he doesn't suffer bullshit. You know, that's like his trademark. Wouldn't you say that he just doesn't have time for your gotcha questions or whatever. He'll roast you.
00:32:33
Speaker
He'll roast you. So did you, just out of curiosity, when you went into that interview, did you feel like you had to prepare differently than you would interview for b Brian Schmetzer, who frankly is going to humor every single question you have, even if he doesn't have a great answer?
00:32:47
Speaker
I was pretty, i was prepared to get, to get cooked, you know, and and yeah try to be ready for that. He, he called me out. I think one area where I had watched them play at Coachella Valley Invitational the day before. um And I was,
00:33:05
Speaker
That's a tournament where there's often games overlapping, right? So there were two games going on at once. And then I was trying to connect with... I mean, the the great thing about that tournament from a media perspective is there's all these teams that are there and everyone's just sort of walking around. And the the press pass gets you into the quote-unquote VIP area where like CSOs are just shooting the breeze with one another or watching games or getting watching their team warm up. And so i was yeah I was trying to catch up with all these different people.
00:33:31
Speaker
So I wasn't able to watch the full 90 minutes of his match, but... There's a kid from, well, I called him a kid because there was someone who's new to me who scored a goal and looked quite good and in the Quakes game.
00:33:43
Speaker
And he, and I mentioned like, oh yeah, who's that kid that scored yesterday? Timo Werner. yeah but Dimo Werner was still still in Germany at this point.
00:33:55
Speaker
But um sorry, i'm um I'm going to pull up the name because i want to make sure I don't i don't mess up. because But he's like ah he I call this ah this guy who they promoted from the second team a kid. And he's like, oh, he's 25 years old. i mean, I don't know. what we that That's not a kid. Yeah. And and um the the the player's name is Nonso Ademabua, and he's definitely one to watch. the He's a Nigerian guy who I think played at one of the local colleges.
00:34:22
Speaker
And and is he is 25 now, so I guess you could say he's a late bloomer, but um strong, quick, powerful player. Stryker, who you know maybe maybe that's one of the guys that they have waiting in the wings that will that will disprove my previous previously stated concerns about their depth.
00:34:41
Speaker
but but But Bruce goes, yeah, i i'm I'm prepared for you media guys to not know what you're talking about. so but was pretty so that was all right par for the course. you know I'm in this now. Yeah. so Uh, yeah, I mean, I, I just gotta, I don't know if I'm built.
00:34:57
Speaker
I don't know if I can, if I'm built for, I, like I, I've been, I've been, i am, I'm, I'm getting used to interviewing people like Brian who frankly, would they want to engage, you know, they, they, they, they want you to want to talk to them, you know? And I get the sense with Bruce that it's, uh, he just doesn't think like that. You know, he, he doesn't,
00:35:21
Speaker
And I've come to appreciate it. And I'm sometimes i'm i'm oftentimes fascinated to hear people talk to him I like to see the different approaches. But like you you he he does not strike me as someone who you should try to outsmart or to try to impress him with how much you know because he will not be impressed. like oh no no. He's seen it all. You've got to come in there almost like – almost like senpai teach me, you know, but like, but you're confident about it somehow. Like you can't let them think you're there to get walked over. But ah I don't know. I was super impressed. And he, again, the, the, the loyalty that he inspires is really striking. Cause like while we're sitting there, we're in the courtyard of their hotel and they're getting ready. Like after he's done with me, he's going to, this is first thing in the morning.
00:36:13
Speaker
It's like 8am and he's going to have a staff meeting. And you see the guys like Dave Sarakin has been with him for decades, right? Like and he's gone, he he left and worked with Robbie Keane for a while in Israel and he and he came back.
00:36:26
Speaker
Shalri Joseph was with him in New England and he's brought him over. There's multiple other guys and and so many guys that he's, he's worked with. But not his son this time, right? No, no. I mean, I, I gather that, you know, and the, the one thing I wish I'd gotten to talk to him about a little bit, but it didn't, didn't get to was, was him being a soccer dad as well. Cause Kenny arena is a,
00:36:47
Speaker
an experienced coach now in his own right and um is on staff at Cincy I believe uh now and um and you know the Bruce Arena coaching tree is enormous right and it now has sub trees underneath right um and so that that that in of itself speaks volumes I think he's he's been more careful the sense I get is that Arena's gotten a lot more cautious after kind of the wreckage of everything and in New England.
00:37:14
Speaker
um but But I think he knows too that part of the job in San Jose is to do media, even if it annoys him to some extent, because this is a club that's trying to get back to relevance locally, nationally, in every sense. I can see that. He can do a lot. And he yeah there's been some, they did a full hour's worth of like a press conference for Timo Werner when he was he was signed, but he hadn't arrived yet.
00:37:41
Speaker
And so where he was beaming in on Zoom from ah from Germany and Bruce is on the call. And they they took like almost an hour's worth of questions. It was really, i was i was really impressed. It was longer than your average media availability. And I could see that it when he had unfiltered moments, he was maybe ah not loving the the marathon ah press set press ah availability, but no doubt gets why.
00:38:06
Speaker
right and and they they need to try and connect with their market because they're um they're behind the curve there but again nothing fixes any of that stuff like uh all and all of that stuff like winning and they are yeah i mean as a like ah not to get too stuck on san jose but you know as a as a bay area native i there is part of me that would like to see what it would look like if the earthquakes went on like a had could put together a something like a sustained run. Cause you know, the only time they've been good, ah really in the modern era of MLS was the bash brother era in, I guess, 2012 was, which is really like a C was really a season.
00:38:49
Speaker
Like there was really only one really good season. And that was the only time one, I think. Yeah. they won yeah And they, year right. And that was it. Yeah. And they played uh, at Santa Clara University, at Shaw, Buckshaw Stadium, which was, ba like, it's laughable to think that that was considered an MLS stadium. I mean, even at the time, it was laughable, but it was not a not a welcoming environment for, was not someplace that fans were dying to get to. Not that not the PayPal Park is great. I haven't been to either one, and that's... that's ah I mean, PayPal Park is a huge upgrade from Shaw, Buckshaw, but it's...
00:39:29
Speaker
It's still like it lacks a lot of the amenities of um most MLS stadium at this point. But ah all right. Is there anyone else in this top tier for you or is it kind of a four team race right now in your mind?
00:39:41
Speaker
i would I would recognize that there's, again, the the whole concept of tiers is maybe maybe it's too soon or maybe it doesn't sure fully apply yet because we're we're struggling to reconcile what we know what we thought we knew about teams from 2025 with what they are now.
00:39:57
Speaker
But again, we we mentioned Seattle and Salt Lake being tied right now. i'm I'm really liking what I see from from both of those teams. I think, and here we are, we're now we're down to six, right? These are five and six in the current standings.
00:40:11
Speaker
and i think um salt lake so they gave you know they sat me down with um xavier gozo uh and aiden has our connie before and during pre-season and sort of like you know we're were're high on these guys essentially was the the two teenagers you should meet these guys and that you know I knew Gozo had had had a few highlight reels, right? He scored an incredible goloso last year that he had a great youth national. l he He was like with the standout player for the youth national team, too, right? Yes. Despite he was on the youth the last U20 World Cup team, one of the youngest guys on it and scored goals and assists and assist and was was very impressive. And that, you know, so the first five weeks of the season have vindicated what RSL staff said.
00:40:59
Speaker
at the direction they pointed me in i mean these are really talented kids considering they're 18 i think um goes are just turned 19. he is way ahead of the curve physically just like a freak athlete who's also techie on the ball wants to beat people know the skill set is already really impressive in terms of his his toolkit as a teenager and in general it it appears that and what was described to me as a period of of underinvestment in the youth pipeline that they've spent so much time and money building over a period of really the better part of a decade.
00:41:34
Speaker
I think with the whole Deloy Hanson saga and the ownership shift, they were really running on a shoestring for a good year or two there and and kind of, they were kind of in a ah purgatory a little bit. Now they feel like they've got it humming again, right? And they they're theyre they are one of the leading clubs in terms of recruiting beyond their market.
00:41:55
Speaker
They try to recruit throughout the West, Southwest particular, but really the entire West. mean, Hezar Khani is accus from Irvine, California, right? And they they are as conscious as anyone that Galaxy and LAFC can only sort of tag so many of their youth players or players in the market. And there's still probably we would say hundreds, if not thousands of of potential future pros beyond those lists. And so there they they recruit cleverly there. theyre They were ahead of the curve in terms of scouting USL. That's where they got Diego Luna from.
00:42:28
Speaker
Rob Rojas as well, that they turned into a transfer The natural rejoinder is that you still have to augment those elements of your roster with... with the elite difference makers. um But, you know, so far so good there. I mean, the, the new DP who's, who's I'm gonna, I'm checking the name cause I don't want to stumble out on it, but more than Gila Vogue.
00:42:52
Speaker
Yeah. He, he, man, I'll tell you. Yeah. he He's one of those ones where I think a lot of people, myself included looked at and said, what are we doing here? Signing these sort of almost,
00:43:07
Speaker
you know, throwaway players from league on. And apparently he's good. Cause he yeah looks, he's looked great. I mean, like even that first game against the Sounders, he looked good, but he's looked every game. He's like impressive. ah Yeah.
00:43:21
Speaker
And the Sounders you you mentioned in there, and I think that's fair. You, that top six does feel like there's a big drop off after that top six, but in as far as the Sounders, what have you, what have you seen? What have you liked from the Sounders?
00:43:36
Speaker
Well, we know that they're not spending, right? I mean, they're this is what's remarkable is this there's an aura around Seattle that goes back to the their early days in the league when they were instantly a trendsetter and a and a pacesetter.
00:43:53
Speaker
and the The spending model has shift shifted sort of 180 degrees from there, but the aura remains. And I think it's because you have a pretty smart coach who understands his team, his club, his city, his region quite well.
00:44:12
Speaker
and an underrated CSO who, and they've they've figured out how to maximize the resources they have and and take advantage of undervalued assets and and waste wasteful decisions elsewhere in the league.
00:44:28
Speaker
And They've built ah a really sturdy collective as a result in the injury situation is, is galling, right? I mean, you look at the number of players they've already lost and we're just, yeah if we want to say six weeks in because they had to start early with the CCC or maybe was seven weeks. i don't know. mean, it's, that's a huge problem.
00:44:49
Speaker
yeah, and I know that the Sounders for a long time were sort of defying their circumstances with injuries because they were a team that had to travel a lot and were playing a lot on turf and it didn't, those factors weren't showing up in their injury history for many years.
00:45:05
Speaker
I don't know if it's coincidence or if there's something else that's that's led to that shifting a bit, but they're they're they're overcoming it. They're surmounting this, and that speaks so highly of the Defiance pipeline and the ability to identify the players that that they need within the system and either either cultivating them or going and finding them somewhere else and and finishing them and making them useful.
00:45:32
Speaker
Yeah, i I don't know that there is a secret to what the Sounders are doing in terms of their ability to sort of like have this conveyor belt of useful players, I think I'll just say.
00:45:47
Speaker
But I do think it may it's like almost common sense is that they make everyone believe that they're a potential contributor. And so when they get on the field, they aren't...
00:45:58
Speaker
They're not playing out of their, you know, like you see it in Antino Lopez when he, he shows, you know, he gets that start against San Jose and it's like, well, my job was to do this. And that was what I did. You know, like, like, it's just like, there's this, they they they believe that they are going to contribute. And, you know, like there's a lot of really talented soccer players out there and It's not that hard. it's it's The trick is not finding talented soccer players. The the trick is fine is like imbuing those soccer players with the right belief and sort of like tactical mindset. ah
00:46:34
Speaker
and That seems to be what the Sounders are are doing right now. i you know the The Peter Kingston thing. Yeah, I'm sorry. Kingston was one of the ones I was going to bring up next. I think it was... was it the I don't remember if it was leg two of the Vancouver series or the league game the weekend before, but they picked Rothrock to do the the video you had the stand-up interview post-game, and he...
00:46:58
Speaker
immediately, almost immediately said, you know, he shouted out Kingston. I think it was Kingston and Lopez. He said that, you know, i want to I want to shout out the the defiance guys because I was, oh yeah I think that was, I think that was after the San Jose game, but yeah.
00:47:12
Speaker
And, uh,
00:47:15
Speaker
that's ah That's a reflection of of ah of an internal culture in a locker room where is widely understood, both among young guys and veterans, the role that that these new arrivals have to play and and the what what sustainability looks like for that collective.
00:47:31
Speaker
And it's not always the case. I have seen interviews and I've interviewed veteran players on teams that are trying to be academy-centered youth-centered. And it doesn't always get universal unquestioning buy-in from the veterans, right? Because there's there's a whole set of perceived and actual challenges and shortcomings that go with with relying on young players.
00:47:54
Speaker
But it really feels like from from the top of the roster down, everyone gets it and everyone knows... um that that they're part of this process and what they do and say and how they treat those those younger or lesser known players matters.
00:48:11
Speaker
And I think one of the other differences is and I don't know how, maybe this is common in other teams, but I know with the Sounders, you know, it's not like Peter Kingston got called up from defiance and then met everybody the next day.
00:48:23
Speaker
It's like, he's been training with the first team off and on for over a year, you know, they, you know, they do a lot of work to sort of integrate the two groups. And there's almost, I don't know that there's ever an instance where a player is getting a first team assignment and it's anything like the first or second time that they have interacted with the the team. I mean, they, they have separate practices, but they're constantly bringing players up and it's not always,
00:48:52
Speaker
the best players from defiance that are called up. It's like whatever position need they have, you know, you know, they they've had this kid Gallatin sadness who has been training with the first team off and on.
00:49:03
Speaker
for over a year and he's not even signed to the defiance yet. He's a, an Academy kid. And it's sort of like, this is sort of the way they, they do things. And so the idea being that, you know, one day he's going to get called into the first team and he'll just be expected to to do the job. But, ah I don't know how many people know this about Peter Kingston. This is a, I think going to end up being a really fascinating story if it, if he continues to develop it.
00:49:27
Speaker
I don't know the last time a player like him has come in like It seems like a previous era of and MLS where this is someone who came through the academy. He went to college. He transferred because he wasn't really playing as much as he wanted to be playing.
00:49:43
Speaker
And then he played USL 2. in us l two And I believe he spent a whole year in USA. think there was a year that that transpired between his draft year and when the Sounders actually brought him into defiance.
00:49:58
Speaker
He's an undrafted player who just sort of like stuck around. And now it looks like he's getting a real, you know, yeah he looks like he's going to get an MLS contract. And we just don't see that very often where, you know, players like that who,
00:50:13
Speaker
you know if you don't get drafted, it's one thing to be a third-round draft pick and and sign with an MLS Next Pro team and just sort of stick around, but it's ah it's like ah another beast to just be like, yeah, they weren't even no one picked them to be anything.
00:50:29
Speaker
that's a great job of key of the shepherd sort of tracking the flock right even when you're not not under your under your umbrella right a given moment um and it says something about you know uh there's a there's this idea of like what it means to be a sounder and the phrase the very word sounder means something right and and um those of us outside of the Puget Sound area are prone to sort of rolling our eyes when we hear Sounders people talk about this, right? You know like, okay, what else did the Sounders invent here? But but it's true. Like there is a there is an overarching sense of place that seems to stick with yeah multiple, and not just players, you know, it's just, it's something it's something across the,
00:51:15
Speaker
different roles and in relationships to the club and the the fans and, and, and the concept. And I have to say it's, I mean, like for example, Rothrock, I think is sort of, um, the most prominent current example that he chose to stay and seems to be reaping the benefits of that, right? It's, it is win-win for, for club and player that they convinced him to stay when many players, many players, many professionals in his particular position or situation,
00:51:45
Speaker
feel they have to leave, right? And there's many so many examples of guys who don't really be fully become themselves. Sebastian Berhalter maybe is ah is a prominent one right now.
00:51:55
Speaker
He had to leave Columbus where he signed his homegrown deal and his dad was a coach to to become his his full self and and his best self. And it seems like you know there's a possibility for so for someone in with a Sounders connection to maybe do it a little differently.
00:52:14
Speaker
Yeah, it is ah it is an interesting a story. ah All right. Well, anyone else that's out? We don't need to go through the rest of the the West, but is there any you from 7 15?
00:52:28
Speaker
I tell you, yes, there is. Because is there yeah i was gonna say is there one, team is there one or two teams that you feel like have the potential to sort of jump into that next tier? Yeah. um I'll throw out a couple of names and I want to point out to a lot of people at sort of my level of, um, planetary or, or observation of this league have been talking about the East sort of pulling away from the West in terms of overall yeah competitiveness in recent years.
00:52:51
Speaker
And, uh, it had felt like there were more elite teams in the East. And I even ah have a friend who had this theory that, um, messy and Miami, the star vehicle being in the East was actually going to fuel that inequality because all these Eastern conference teams get at least one message per year.
00:53:10
Speaker
When you can, in the case of my team, the team down the street for me, DC United, they go the road to Baltimore. And although it antagonized a segment of their hardcore, what's left of their hardcore fan base,
00:53:21
Speaker
they like more than tripled their attendance, probably their gate, right, to to play in Baltimore, the messy game. And so if if East teams kept getting these messy paydays and then investing it back in the club, which is not a given, then that could even like exacerbate the conference inequality.
00:53:38
Speaker
It doesn't appear to be the case because I look at look down the standings here, And, ah you know, after a really rocky start on opening weekend and in at Seattle, the Rapids are balling right now. And I know they had a pretty poor SKC team over the weekend, but they were pretty stylish and now they went about it. um And they, they're,
00:53:58
Speaker
All this stuff that they were kind of trying and not pulling off and at Seattle, they're they're now pulling it off. And they're showing that they can play a transition as well. I see an identity forming there that leads me to believe that they're going to be, at the very least, a tough out in the months to come.
00:54:13
Speaker
But then the the most flowers I think I would give to the remaining teams will go to FC Dallas. this And again, this is a team that year one under Eric Quill last season, they were...
00:54:25
Speaker
They were building something. They had this sort of collective challenge, traumatic event, perhaps in terms of the Lucho-Akast relationship, including They'd gone out and spent real money to to bring the disaffected Lucho over from Cincinnati.
00:54:41
Speaker
They knew it was a risk in terms of him having fallen out with past clubs. It lasted matter of months, right? And he and they had they had to ship him out to Brazil. and then it was And then that was the sort of like the the milestone or the turning point in their whole season. And they formed this really...
00:55:02
Speaker
I would say, impressive team mentality. They got all their guys bought in on being a tough team to beat, being defensively rugged and organized and being good in transition. And now we're seeing that they had a wild one in ah in a derby game. they They came back.
00:55:18
Speaker
They're up. They go 3-2 down to Houston at home. All in the first 35 minutes. Yeah, incredible. First half. What a first half. And then yeah it helped ah that Houston had a and second yellow card that that changed the the tenor of that game. But they were able to bring far and away their best player, Petr Musa, who is trying to get on Croatia's World Cup team and is...
00:55:41
Speaker
doing all he can to get himself into that conversation comes off the bench right and and instigates the their their equalizer and then scores their winner late but it's not just him right he's that is really cool attacking partnership when they have both him and logan farrington uh former oregon state uh standout who's again a draft pick and not like not a hyped academy kid come up in wisconsin he was another example of talent that remains in the Super Draft, he is starting to become an elite striker in this league. And how many domestic
00:56:18
Speaker
non-academy, non-youth national team players take this path that he's on. It's super, super impressive. And he had a, um Doyle compared it to Bergkamp. He had a Bergkamp S-touch and solo skill check to to produce Dallas's first goal.
00:56:34
Speaker
And so they've got, the question is with Dallas is and will remain, do they have enough top-end talent? They could probably use one more top player. that they' There's talk that they're still looking for a DP number 10.
00:56:47
Speaker
But at the moment, I think that's a team that's that anybody who plays them is going to feel it. that they're You're going to have to work to get points off of Dallas. And they're doing this with their home field advantage being somewhat compromised. right as As anyone who's watched a game broadcast guest from Toyota Stadium will know, they're in the midst of a multi-year renovation overhaul of their stadium, which I think is goingnna be it's going to change everybody's idea and of what of what Frisco is, right? Because it's going be gorgeous stadium when it's finally done.
00:57:15
Speaker
But they've only got, you know, maybe half the stadium, half a bowl, essentially, that they can they can fill up. For sure, the TV side of the stands are closed. That's what we know. Yeah. And and listen, I mean, this is this is a good example of a 1.0 club that's trying to... yeah step into the next, the next phase, because the reason that there's, uh, that, that it looks so, um, poor on TV is that they put all the TV, uh, camera infrastructure on one side, just to say which is where the press stuff was. So it was just sort of like a 1.0 kind of decision.
00:57:49
Speaker
and my favorite lore about, about, uh, Toyota stadium is that Lamar hunt who was still alive and still involved in the ownership of that club when they were building what was initially pizza apart.
00:58:03
Speaker
The, the Laura has it that he, he hated paying overtime. so So that stadium got done when it got done and they were still working on it even at even after FC Dallas had started playing at it. And 20 odd years later, they are still they are still working on it to their credit. But anyway, I see all can you just say The other thing that's funny about the TV side, the the side that gets shown by the TV, is that it also was traditionally the uncovered side.
00:58:29
Speaker
So that... Even when they were drawing. oh Right. So you picture the sun is the hot Texas sun is, is setting in the West. Right. And it's um the, the seat, the section that's now closed that is on the camera that the cameras are showing that was, that's the East side that for a typical, like seven 30 start in Texas summer,
00:58:48
Speaker
the fans the poor fans blased getting absolutely roasted by 100 degree sun so so that will have there'll be awnings all the way around and it'll be it'll be closer to i think a cincinnati or a red bull type of yeah it's just it's just such a funny state because it's like it was almost designed to look like shit on tv uh and now they are trying to you know they're they're trying to correct it uh and and it probably you know and it is kind of whatever we're gonna get We get into this. Maslow's hierarchy of and MLS needs, right? You have to remember, they just needed a place to play. Yeah, exactly. Where they weren't going to pay rent, right? And and there was kind of a as I understand it, there was a sort of an organizational um soul search that went on where where it was, okay, are are we staying in Frisco?
00:59:34
Speaker
and building this place out, or do we go try to go back downtown and do what Chicago is trying to do to to get back into the urban core? um And they they picked they picked Frisco, helped that the the city was ready to pony up some public money to to help with the Hall of Fame project. And then I think there's public money going towards this ongoing renovation. And Frisco's also grown up. but My understanding is that Frisco's sort of grown up around the stadium as well. So it's not quite in the middle of nowhere the way that it it felt when it was built. Yes, and it was. And as someone who's old enough to have gone to an FC Dallas game in year one, think it was 05, and then who's gone more recently. And it is like in that the I'm from that that part of the world, so i know more than most.
01:00:18
Speaker
the The urban sprawl of the Dallas 4th Metroplex has been sprawling outward from the city centers since since white flight of post-World War two and the and the whole desegregation of of the American South was happening. like like the the the The urban sprawl started then and continues to this day. And at some point, it's going to reach...
01:00:40
Speaker
the Oklahoma border and maybe it'll just keep going. But the, the issue you have in a place like Dallas, you don't have in Seattle or vice versa is that, is there there there in the, in the heart of downtown? Are you going to really reap a benefit by being in going back to the cotton bowl, let's say, or or finding a downtown location?
01:01:00
Speaker
where or are you actually closer to your to your typical fan in frisco now so um you know i'm a city dweller myself so but i try not to to overly editorialize here i mean they they've made it home and and a big part of that club's identity is also that they need those you know two dozen training fields or whatever right that out back because that's that's where they're ostensibly getting their you know their future stars through their academy yeah and they need to fill those extra dates with high school football
01:01:31
Speaker
Yeah. And shout out to ah the the grounds crew is one of the best. And I've seen them pull off oh some amazing stuff at at Toyota because they they've got football games happening. They host the see ah the D2 stuff. They usually have a bowl like theirs and they have concerts like that's that's a pretty good grass pitch considering all the the many events that they're hosting. So shout out to those guys.
01:01:59
Speaker
Well, I think we're. ah So if you are listening to this, hoping to hear much about Sporting Kansas City, the Timbers, St. Louis City, Minnesota United, Austin FC, Galaxy or Dynamo. Sorry, guys, but we're not going to actually spend any more time talking about the dregs of ah the Western Conference.
01:02:20
Speaker
so both are gonna So far. So far. Yeah, so far. So far. ah But we are what we're going to do. We're to a break. We'll come back. I just want to talk a little CONCACAF Champions Cup with you.
01:02:32
Speaker
That sound good? Yeah, let's go. All right. Great. All right. We'll be right back. This is No Study Yet. This part of the Center at Heart Podcast Network.
01:02:44
Speaker
Sounder at Heart has been around in one form or another since 2009. In 2026, though, we make a pretty significant evolution when we go analog. Yes, that's right. In the year of our Lord, 2026, we are publishing a real-life magazine. We're calling this thing 4, as in Sounder at Heart 4.0. But we're stylizing it as i IV because we absolutely love Roman numeral. And if you want to refer to it as IV, that's cool, too. The first issue has a comic book-style cover that was hand-drawn by local artist Kevin Newber. I could not possibly more proud of the work everyone put into making this
01:03:24
Speaker
max aquino mike russell and jane gerershowitz i could not possibly be more proud of the work everyone put into making this and I think you're gonna absolutely love it. If you'd like to get your hands on one of these limited edition copies, we're currently selling them for $15 on our website. Get yours now. Nos Adietes admittedly is not exactly known for our spicy takes, but that doesn't mean we want our food to be mild.
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01:04:35
Speaker
Hacks and Ferments is a proud sponsor of the Sounder at Heart Podcast Network.
01:04:42
Speaker
Welcome back to Nos Adietes on the Sounder at Heart Podcast Network. We're here with Charlie Bohm. We just finished talking about the sort of power structure of the Western Conference, and we're going now shift to the power structure of CONCACAF, where we are now into the quarterfinals, which I think is the the business end of this tournament here. a lot you know, we've gotten rid of the chaff, I think we can say.
01:05:08
Speaker
And unfortunately, that means we got rid of a lot of MLS teams, but it's all, it is all MLS and League Imechis now, right? Yeah. I believe so, yes. Yeah. Double check on that.
01:05:20
Speaker
It's Sounders, and nows only MLS teams left. I'll run through the the quarterfinal matchups. We have Toluca versus Galaxy, LAFC versus Cruz Azul, Tigris versus Sounders, and Nashville versus Cuba America.
01:05:38
Speaker
So we got all four. That's, I don't know what people were saying. What am I? We got four and four here. We got all league MEC is MLS matchups. I guess this is where we find out. if Again, we get a great example of has MLS actually made meaningful progress in closing this gap that we can't stop talking about. And we'll never stop talking about until and MLS teams are regularly winning this thing, which I think has only happened once in the modern era. Is that correct? Yeah.
01:06:07
Speaker
Yes. and I believe the Sounders are the only team to have won it in the modern era. But you knew that. But you knew that. I did. i did. But i kind of allewed it to myself. yeah It's unbelievable. It is. It's unbelievable. Paul Tenorio out here saying that MLS never can compete and he gets flooded by actuallys from Sounders fans. It's just poor Paul.
01:06:33
Speaker
paul I'm sure Paul would say that it's the exception that proves the rule. That's exactly what he said. i think that was a quote from him, an actual quote from him. i mean, what's fun about four for Liga MX versus MLS matchups is we could keep the same ratio. It's it's mildly conceivable that more MLS teams could make it into the semis.
01:06:55
Speaker
It's extremely conceivable that we can have an all-in-all-all-league MX final field. fields so a little bit of hazard built into the the drama. Do we, okay, let's let's just start here. Do you think any of the and MLS teams are favorites in these matchups?
01:07:12
Speaker
oh um You could make a case for Nashville and LAFC, i think. But that would be yeah that would a a a very arguable case because think you could say Club America have not shown themselves to be the overpowering colossus that we were maybe accustomed to most of the last few decades.
01:07:36
Speaker
um They had a hard time with a pretty poor out-of-form Philly team. They do not have their usual fortress, right? Again, World Cup. Yeah, where are they playing? that The Azteca is they, well, they've they've kind of been nomads. The previous game, their home leg, which turned out to be a draw, is at Ciudad de los Deportes, which is another Mexico City area team. I'd heard someone say that they're having to play, some of the Mexico City clubs are having to play out in Puebla, which is well outside of Puebla.
01:08:08
Speaker
of Mexico City proper, but I'm not sure. I'm going to look and see if they've announced that. mean, I guess Toluca could potentially host games as well, which is technically yeah yeah kind of a a a suburb.
01:08:22
Speaker
see. So Leg One is a Geodis Park, and actually it looks like they don't have... don't have a venue listed on FATMOD at least. So there's been a little... When you consider how big these teams are, Azul and America are are legit gigantes, but they're they're stuck in a very awkward position because of the ya Azteca renovations. but all right here So Cruz Azul is going to host LAFC second leg at Estadio Cuauhtémoc.
01:08:48
Speaker
ah which is which is in Pueblo. Yeah, which is, you know, don't know if it's quite compared to Spokane, but it's, you know, it i mean most coaches would say that's an away day. We're going to approach this like an away game, right? So,
01:09:04
Speaker
You know, it's still there's still an altitude advantage and and that maybe is the most powerful part of all. And they so they know like ah Club America and Cruz Azul can summon a a big crowd pretty much anywhere in Mexico they play. So they'll still have significant home field advantage. But I just think they're a little bit off their their peak.
01:09:22
Speaker
Club America does not have a ah ah stadium listed on even on the CONCACAF schedule page. Yeah, so who knows what machinations are are involved with that. But, and yeah, it's it's again, if you're looking for reasons to be hopeful, because I think when you see what Tigris did to to Cincinnati the other night in in the Stadio Universitario of Volcan, yeah that home field advantage is like –
01:09:53
Speaker
visceral right it's it's not slaps you in the face the minute you walk in it's it's the this is the vibe it's the confidence of the players and familiarity it's the fans like it's the the all those routines that for example you know seattle as a club and team and the fan base have to have to adapt right and so you're just not at the same rhythm at in some place like spokane as you are at your house so you know Yeah. I mean, I'm reaching here a little bit. I recognize I'm not saying that, you know, they're not favorites, but I think there's a little bit less of a um little bit less of a, of an aura around, around full America right now than, than maybe there has been in in CCC's past. I would definitely say Toluca are pronounced favorites over the galaxy. I think that one could actually get ugly. The galaxy don't turn up with their very best.
01:10:52
Speaker
LAFC Christmas rule is maybe a little more balanced, but we're talking about the defending champions of this tournament. And they, and again, anytime you're in central Mexico, the altitude is just a ah massive, massive factor. And,
01:11:05
Speaker
all these teams really, I mean, all all eight teams that we're going to have to reckon with potential fallout from the international window too, right? You just have to hope and pray as the club coach that your guys travel well, don't get overused by their national team coaches and and come back healthy and in rhythm because that's, that's a huge X factor in all these matchups as well.
01:11:25
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, Cruz Azul right now, they are the number one ranked team in CONCACAF and they are second in the Liga MECs table. You know, when This time last year, they were generally considered to be the best team in the Western Hemisphere, maybe the best team outside of Europe.
01:11:44
Speaker
Toluca seems to have sort of taken over that mantle. But Kruzisoul is a very good team. ah Tegress is an interesting one for the Sounders.
01:11:55
Speaker
And I think they get this is one of those ones where I feel like the Sounders having the second leg in Seattle could be significant ah in part because you saw the way that, you know, you alluded to the sort of the avalanche that happened Seattle.
01:12:14
Speaker
when Cincinnati went to Tigres and I can't help, but feel like partly that was a fact, ah a function of being the second leg where they knew, like there was this energy, this urgency, they get two goals in the first 10 minutes and it's just, you know, the whole, the whole game plan gets thrown out the window and it was sort of just all downhill sledding from there. And,
01:12:40
Speaker
And Cincinnati could just barely hold on. And you would like to think that that same dynamic is a little less likely when the first leg is there. Yeah, exactly. And ah the <unk>s there's this feeling.
01:12:55
Speaker
I first saw it with with the Mexican national team. and And listeners of a certain age may remember before the dosa zero myth really got established, it was just so there was just ah a narrative. There's just a way that US-Mexico games competitive matches of consequence would unfold.
01:13:15
Speaker
And you were always playing uphill even in the U S sometimes because the Mexican players, the, their technique was, was high level.
01:13:26
Speaker
They were all cutthroat and they had this collective mentality of being able to smell blood in the water. And so things snowballed so quickly and especially on home turf, they just always had this sense of, of when to go. Right. And I think you see that with Tigris.
01:13:42
Speaker
I've, sorry that my youth and now and then my adult life of watching and covering ccc has been has been one replication of another of this the mexican the top mexican teams in particular they just know when to go and they are able to tread water and when they can tread water like they they just they don't they might lose but they don't get rolled up that was just so remarkable at the first leg and you even to for i've never seen i can hardly remember a time when tigress got rolled up three nil, right? But they they always knew, they've done it before they knew that if once they got home, that they could, they knew what a what a remontada would look like.
01:14:22
Speaker
And usually they don't have to do that. Because they can just tread water in the bad times. and You have to be so good. Your peak as a team, as their opponent has to be so high.
01:14:33
Speaker
And then your valley has to be high as well. Like you you can't let things snowball and and give up cheap goals or find yourself behind on aggregate. i mean And again, i think back to that Sounders run, there were so many examples of where someone whether it was Roldan or whoever and in that run was able to, to staunch the bleeding at the right time, you know, and, and they were rarely getting in a position where they had to rally and had to come back from, from an aggregate disadvantage.
01:15:03
Speaker
That's just, that's just that collective IQ. Yeah. Yeah, and I go back, you know the the moment I always go back to in that series why or in that run was, yeah, the Roll Dawn thing was huge because it it allowed them to sort of, like, it it was feeling like that was getting away, like the series was getting away from them.
01:15:21
Speaker
They were in the... you humas you know Right. Juno Apumas. And it was sort of like, okay, we'll lick our wounds and we hope for the best when we go back. And then to come out of there tied to two was huge. And we don't need to re-level that. But the the moment of that series that really stands out to me as sort of, this is a little different than what we're used to, was going all the way back to the series against Lyon, who...
01:15:46
Speaker
I know a lot of in the lore gets the, the Leon series gets skipped over, but this is a team that the next season won CONCACAF the year before they had won the league's cup. They were a very good league at Mackey's team.
01:16:00
Speaker
The Sounders had won the first leg 3-1, believe. And they went to Lyon. The second leg is in Lyon. And i want to say they gave up the first goal, but then they were able to pull one back when Jao Paulo played in, i believe it was Freddy Montero, into the box. He gets pulled down. He gets taken out for a penalty.
01:16:20
Speaker
And they convert that penalty. And then all of a sudden, the the the whole nature of the series changed because they now had a cushion that they could sit on.
01:16:30
Speaker
And they had sort of at that point staunched the bleeding. and And that was just sort of like the first time where it felt like this is a little different than what we're used to teams doing. and that And really what the Sounders, I think, have done remarkably in in their CONCACAF history is they've avoided...
01:16:45
Speaker
you know Early on, they had a few of these things where you know the one I always remember is they were up 2-0 on Monterey, and they ended up losing 3-2 when Humberto Suazo came in and just sort of took over the game. And it was like, oh, what this is we don't have an answer for this. And he just took over he came off the bench and took it over. And then there was the Santos Laguna, the famous Santos Laguna game, where they ah you know they get steamrolled, I believe, 6-1 in the second leg. And it was just sort of like this...
01:17:14
Speaker
you know, unstoppable force. And it's ever since then, they've seemed to have kind of figured out how to avoid that, that kind of thing from happening. And they've figured out that, you know, and that's why I do think the second leg being in Seattle gives them a much better chance than if they were having to go to Tigris and withstand the madness that is El Vulcan, which is, it is really a underrated atmosphere, I think, in all of the Western hemisphere. I mean, you, we hear about, know,
01:17:43
Speaker
ah how things can be in South America and, and, and sometimes, but this is one of the great atmospheres in all of, all of the way, maybe all of the world, really. I mean, it's, ah it's amazing what, what Tigris's atmosphere is like.
01:17:57
Speaker
Yeah, I haven't experienced it myself, but um you know our our friend and colleague, John Arnold, has been down there for games and and speaks about it. and that even Even that Cincinnati game, it was remarkable.
01:18:09
Speaker
Kevin Denke scores a header, a free kick, to snatch an away goal, to put to to you know put them back and move in position to advance. Yeah. Yeah.
01:18:20
Speaker
and there was like the the silence people talk about silencing the the you know the the crowd as as an awaiting and the silence was like almost an instant and then they started singing even louder and when you can hear you can tell that half the stadium or maybe 90 of the stadium is singing the same song and they they know it and they they all know that that moment is when we step it up, right? Like we play our 12th man role, even it's more important now than it is when we're winning.
Tigrés Club Culture and Sounders' Path to Finals
01:18:52
Speaker
And, and then just like in the way that helps the team, right? what, what they, the way that they feed off of that was, was so profound and it helps when you have, you know there's all these signposts that that reassure a tigre supporter that they've got this right you see uh jenny come off the bench right and you know even though he's 40 years old you know what that means right and you he's like the manifestation the walking manifestation of the culture of the club that is in it to win everything and is and you know goes to more finals than almost anyone i can think of you know i don't know what the numbers are but if we look at
01:19:30
Speaker
north american club soccer regional and uh and national like they're just always there and they don't always win but they're always there and so i think that's uh yeah that is that's that's a powerful factor and the key will then be managing that game that first leg and making it so that you don't have a mountain to climb uh at at uh at home Yeah.
01:19:53
Speaker
Yeah. And then if, and I guess ah to the, if we're looking for reasons to be optimistic about the Sounders, they do get the winner of Nashville America in the semifinals or the winner of the Sounders series would get the winner of Nashville in America and the semifinals.
01:20:08
Speaker
And then as far as I understand it, the host, like the, the whole thing really comes down to, do you get to host the final now? And The Sounders did themselves a huge favor by winning the first two. by like that That's part of why winning the second leg was so important is that it it really puts them in a position where they can potentially host a final. they can hope they can you know if they can win at least one of the games in this next round, there's a decent chance they'll host because it's cumulative. It's cumulative.
01:20:42
Speaker
there's a decent chance they would host the next leg because both, uh, America, neither America, America nor Nashville won both of their legs.
Criticism of CONCACAF's Final Format
01:20:50
Speaker
Nashville actually only has two points going into this, into this. Uh, so that would be a, a particularly, i don't know if they count the first round cause they were, you know they had, so they only count rounds of 16 Yeah.
01:21:02
Speaker
So, yeah, and this is i I said this a year ago, i went down and covered the Whitecaps Cruises will final and I was partially critical and remain so again, and it was it's not just sour grapes of of watching an MLS team get demolished and in a one leg final.
01:21:17
Speaker
Actually, the last two years, right? Because this is this is what really kneecaps Columbus Crews. Yeah, of of who I think were every bit had every bit as much momentum as the Sounders did at that, at that phase of their run. I would say both Vancouver and both Vancouver and Columbus. I don't have any, like, I don't think it's fair to diminish what the Sounders accomplished, but I do think it's fair to point out that if, if that the path that both Vancouver and Columbus took was tougher, that doesn't mean the Sounders took an easy path, but I do think they they had bigger teams that they had to beat along the way, but go ahead.
01:21:54
Speaker
It is absurd. It is farcical that CONCACAF has decided that they can have their cake and eat it too. They want to have the one-legged final, the one-off event. They aspire to be in the realm of the UEFA Champions League where you you can schedule this thing outside of your normal parameters and and make it a global event and make it a big TV event.
01:22:16
Speaker
And yet they're not quite... brave enough and bold enough to host it at a neutral site and take on the extra extra risk of filling a building and and creating hype in a local market and everything the way that at the Super Bowl or the Champions League can do. right So they decide to split the baby by making it the higher higher seed, but not even the higher seed. The team that is in there under their metrics gotten the the better results on the way to the final. And it's just, it's, it's, it is in, in, in like extremely frustrating to me just from a kind of strictly competitive balance, because you've changed the ground rules. You've had one format for the entire tournament, and then you change your ground rules in a way that drastically favors the, the, the, the quote unquote higher seed.
01:23:01
Speaker
And it was, it it came down to, if I remember correctly, it was like a goal or two in terms, you know, of how Christmas school got to host and, and not, not Vancouver. So.
01:23:11
Speaker
um it's It's farcical. It shouldn't be this way. It's a massive disadvantage to to the away team to an extent that's not fair. But here we are again, very, very cocky-caffy.
01:23:25
Speaker
Yeah. Very conky coffee, but, uh, hopefully yeah pour it in, pour it on. You got to just pour it on, go get your, yeah, exactly. But, and I guess it does add some juice to every leg. Like the sounders had a lot of motivation to try to win that second leg, to not just sit on a, a three zero lead and and play out a, you know, a zero zero tie.
01:23:45
Speaker
Uh, and, You know, we'll see. We'll see how it works out. But it's going to be interesting to see how this this
MLS Scheduling Challenges and Sounder Heart Magazine Promotion
01:23:53
Speaker
plays out. My understanding is that the sounder like the Sounders have not announced this, but my understanding is they are going to move their April 12th home game, which is they're supposed to be their first league game,
01:24:05
Speaker
uh, into September during an international window in September, which would not only play mean one less game on this precious grass that is going into Lewin field, but it would also, ah eliminate the, the, the midweek game that they would have to play, ah between the, the two legs of the champions cup, which would be a,
01:24:26
Speaker
potential advantage uh i don't know if any other team that that used to almost be the standard way that mls did these things is once they got to the quarterfinals they would they would sort of go out of their way mls has not done that i don't believe in in the last few years most teams don't do that anymore because there's not that many places to move games That's the challenge is where do you play it? And then you are you kneecapping your future self by giving yourself another another game in ah in a crowded run-in?
01:24:52
Speaker
i there There was a fair amount of ah confusion and intrigue around this last year. So I think Columbus got some games moved, but the Whitecaps...
01:25:06
Speaker
On the one hand, they were saying publicly, and and this was... Right, that they wanted the same. They liked it better. our number Our data, insisting that our data shows that our guys play better with short rest. They'd rather be playing games.
01:25:18
Speaker
you know we don't We don't need to have the weekend off. And then on the other hand, he tells a different group of people that, or maybe it was Sorensen or someone, or maybe they've been reporting it from the local can't remember which of their data.
01:25:29
Speaker
Someone within the organization said they had asked MLS to move the game before the the final cc final last weekend, last year, and were declined. So they certainly showed their legs. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered.
01:25:42
Speaker
Cruises over a buzzsaw at the ah UNAM stadium. um But it was confusing, right? and and i think ah in a perfect world, if you have to choose, you you take that mileage off and you allow yourself to focus. And especially when we look at the injury history so far this season for the Sounders, you know, there's got to be a few, a few bodies here and there could make a real difference.
01:26:07
Speaker
It definitely could. It definitely could. Well, I feel like we've done a decent job of ah sort of setting the stage for this next round of champions cup. I obviously appreciate you coming in, Charlie.
01:26:20
Speaker
if you don't know, Charlie wrote one of the real highlights of the sounder heart magazine for, uh, okay. I should get the confidence to just call it four and assume people know what I'm talking about. But yeah, you wrote a great profile on Christian rolled on. I just wanted to say thank you. I hope people have gone out and read it. If you haven't read it, go get a copy. Uh,
01:26:42
Speaker
They're still available. You can go to Sounder at Heart. there's ah You'll be able to figure out from there. and And I think Charlie is, assuming we are going to be able to push this push this thing into press, think Charlie's going to write us another column for the another feature for the the next issue, which, fingers crossed, is going to be a World Cup issue coming out in the next you know couple months. Yeah.
01:27:06
Speaker
and Charlie, you got something good cooking. I'm i'm optimistic. got Good. a lot of work to be done, but we hopefully you're trying to cook up something something fun for you guys. I really appreciated the chance that, that for, and that you Jeremiah provided me to, to stretch out and and go longer and go a little more and in depth.
01:27:24
Speaker
I like to think that there were some detail in that world on piece that, that, that maybe ah a sounder sicko would appreciate, right? Yeah. I mean, getting a quote from Zach Scott, I think hits that, hits that pretty squarely. Indeed. Indeed.
Conclusion and Acknowledgements
01:27:39
Speaker
The reclusive Zach Scott. Yeah.
01:27:43
Speaker
For sure. So that's there's just nothing like a magazine in that sense. i'm i'm really it's I've got one displayed over my shoulder here in the office. You can't see it if you're listening to this on audio, but I'm super proud to be involved in It's just so exciting that somebody has the ambition and the wherewithal to throw together tree soccer magazine in these troubled times. It gives me hope.
01:28:08
Speaker
Well, ah that's a good place to end it, I think. I appreciate you doing it. I appreciate ah everyone listening. I want to say thank you to our sponsors, Full Pull Wines. And of course, thank you to our subscribers for making this all work and making it making it it happen.
01:28:24
Speaker
Charlie, where can people follow you? Yeah, mainly on spending most of my time on Blue Sky at C-B-O-E-H-M at bsky.social. I'm also on Instagram. I think it's Charles Bone, one word.
01:28:38
Speaker
But you can look at me up there too. I'll try to kind of throw stuff on there now again. And still most of my work, but not all is is on MLSsoccer.com. I know we've been taking a little bit of a beating in the court of public opinion lately, but we're still putting out some good stuff there, contrary absolutely to some perceptions.
01:29:02
Speaker
Definitely still some good content on there. There's no question about it. All right, ah Charlie, thank you for doing this. ah but Let's get out here. I'm Jeremiah O'Shann. This is Nos Adietes, part of the Sounder at Heart Podcast Network.
01:29:13
Speaker
And remember, you'll never get alone.
01:29:47
Speaker
Let's go and sounders.