Transcript
Speaker: Jenna, hi. Hello, I'm Meredith. I'm very excited to get to have this conversation with you. Thanks for agreeing to do it. Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker: For folks who don't know you, can you say who you are and what you do? I'm Jenna Birch. I'm the founder of Sisu, which is the anti-agency for, I usually describe it as communications-led marketing or sometimes content-led communications. So we work on a multidiscipline structure within communications. We work on PR, we work on content, we work on social, we work on podcasts, spinning up innovative marketing programs for I'd say the new world of media.
Speaker: I'm so interested in the work you're doing. i feel like we're playing in the same space a little bit and I cannot wait to hear more about it. Before we get into the work you're doing now today, can you give us your career journey?
Speaker: So I grew up always assuming I was going be a writer. it was the first thing that anyone ever told me I was good at. I was the editor and chief from my high school newspaper. i would write novels in high school just to prove that I could. it was like always part of my repertoire. had a brief, I would say,
Speaker: meltdown in early college being like, I can't be a writer. It's going leave me unemployed. And then my counselor was like, I have an English degree from the university of Michigan and I've never been unemployed. I've done a lot of things, but I've never been unemployed. And I was like, that sounds like an interesting journey. Maybe I should lean into that. So I ended up pursuing English and creative writing at Michigan. And at the same time, I was an athlete all through high school and all through my younger years. And had never really gotten a real job. So my dad said that I need to go get a real job in the workforce while I'm going to Michigan. i didn't want to get a real job. So I ended up teaching myself how to freelance write while I was in Michigan pitching stories to magazines. And so I spent the four years I was at Michigan writing at the same time as a part-time job. But eventually became a full-time job and i ended up graduating and a full-time freelance journalist.
Speaker: The world of media, I would say, was volatile then. It's even more volatile now. I was pretty sure i didn't want to do it forever, but I definitely wanted to stay in and around the writing space. was a storyteller. That's what I remember.
Speaker: wanted to do So I ended up pitching a book as the next leg of my journey. i ended up writing a book, which was published by Grand Central in 2018 called The Love Gap. Decided to get recruited into startups. Had a few potential opportunities. It was a dating book. So I was potentially joining a few different consumer startups. Ended up deciding, actually, i think I want to join this startup and build something from scratch.
Speaker: that I can have a real imprint on. And then i ended up going to Silicon Valley and realized i did not want to be the founder of this particular startup, but I loved the people there, especially women. i got adopted by incredible founders and VCs that were women in the Valley and was like, these are my people. I love these people. i want to work in the space. And at the time there was something called platform that was bubbling up in venture capital. It was, i would say the operational layer that works within a venture capital firm in order to support the portfolio companies that they invest in.
Speaker: And someone suggested that I might like doing this. I ended up looking into it, thought like, this is interesting. ended up consulting with a few VCs and startups at the same time, loved it and decided to make that pivot going into venture. So I then took a couple of jobs venture capital firm, foreign adventures, doing all consumer leading content first, and then adopting the comms vertical. And then I went to NFX to build out their communications vertical for the first time, integrating that into their content. And then circumst circumstance hit me. I think everyone that's known me has always been, I'm very entrepreneurial. I like doing things on my own. Everyone's like, you'll start your own thing one day. it wasn't necessarily my plan to do it when I did, but had a couple of cancers in the family. So I ended up deciding I'm going to leave San Francisco, which is where I was, back home to Michigan and I'll start consulting again. So I started consulting in venture, doing the things that I did at venture firms, basically. But this hybrid strategy and approach that I had used early at Forerunner and then at NFX, which was really connecting the thought leadership function explicitly to the comms and PR and making sure that the business goals were extremely aligned. That was something that I kept seeing was missing amongst the comms firms that would work with my companies when I was at Forerunner and NFX. So I really started the strategy. I decided to just pioneer it into my own consulting firm. And then as my family members got better and the business started to grow, I ended up basically talking to Pri, who's now just my partner in crime at Sisu. And she's like, I think this is a whole business. Let's grow business. So we ended up deciding to do it. And that is how Sisu was born today. I have a couple questions. yeah you want to talk to more about what you're working on now. I was feeling a lot of similarities with you. I also too was a writing major in college. i
Speaker: felt like writing was the first thing people said I was good at. It's what I'd envisioned for myself. But at some point I was like, how am I going have a job? And I had a part-time freelance writing job in college that paid the bills, but also was very influential probably in my career direction. didn't play sports. What sports were you playing?
Speaker: I was super competitive softball and basketball player all throughout my younger years. And so that was eating up all the time I would have had a job. So I had a lot of discipline to get things done, but had never had a real job. My dad, I remember trying to convince him that I could make money writing on the internet and jokes on him today. That's what tons of people do. But at the time, that was a very novel concept, especially for my Midwest dad. I don't remember where I found my first freelance job, but we have a deal.
Speaker: that I would go get like a real job if I didn't have a job by August 1st like going into my freshman year at Michigan and I got that job on like July 30th and like wow the end and so the rest is history I came in just under the deadline I'm always telling him I'm like where would I be today if i missed that deadline by just a couple days What were these novels you were writing when you were a kid? Oh, man. i can't even remember the content. Everything that I always wrote was either nonfiction or realistic fiction. So it would always be like something along those lines. That's like the stories that I like to read. I wasn't like huge into like fantasy or like anything like that. I wanted to capture like realistic scenarios and realistic things that people were dealing with. So I would do that and I would write novels, but it's mostly say i like wanted to prove I could take something from start to finish, which I think yeah is very like the first founder journey, i would say in many ways. And I would say a lot of writing my book, I think when i was 24 was probably around the same concept was like, it was my first founder journey. It's taking something from literally start to finish. And I think that's more than the idea any specific thing that it was about for me, it was like about the act of the craft. I think it's very important.
Speaker: It's like you have to show up and keep practicing it. Get better and better. And I've always been very aware of that about writing and communicating in general is to get better by doing it. You have to continue to do it. And some days it's like pulling teeth and it feels like the hardest thing in the world to get like real inspirational writing out or to like actually have that strong clarity of thought that you need. But I think I was very aware that like I wanted to do the act enough that I would become better and better at it over time. And you just naturally find your voice through the process of doing that.
Speaker: So i didn't even remember exactly what the topics were for about, but I just remember needing to finish them. Like I needed to finish them. How long did you work on them? Do you remember? And also how old were you exactly? The grit of young you is really impressive to me that you're I think I was like 15 and 16 in that age group, but it was like a thing that I would do on the weekends and at night, like as I had extra time, like that was the thing that I wanted to do.
Speaker: it was not something where like I had like a time, like it would take me months. It was a long period of time because I obviously had other things going on. I was going to sports. I was going to school. i was doing all these other things, but I just would love to sit down. That was the early days of having my own laptop and being able to sit down and do these things when I was in high school.
Speaker: I just really enjoyed the process of writing and just trying to conceptualize something and carrying through the narrative threads and making sure that everything wove together. Like that was so early. And like what I realized was just like showing up for doing the craft and not showing up because it has to be perfect, but showing up because the more you do it, it the better you become.
Speaker: This weekend, my husband and I and one of our friends, all three of us write. We had lunch and we were joking about how people who are like musicians or painters, when you talk to them about their art or their hobby, they're like, it's just a place I go to just really have fun and really tune out the world, get in flow. And it's so relaxing to me. And we were all like,
Speaker: Writing is usually the most psychologically challenging period of our days. and We're like, what's wrong with us? But why do we like this so much or feel compelled to do it? would like one more question before we move on to some of your other stuff. I'm getting from you, maybe Julia Cameron or Bird by Bird or Stephen King on writing or Many of the, you just have to sit down and show up for the act and work on it and work on it and work on it. Am I on the right track or is there a particular like. Oh yeah, on writing was like one of my favorite like formative early days.
Speaker: For me in particular, i never felt like I was the best writer. My best friend who I met my senior year of college and we were both taking writing classes at Michigan and she ended up writing a book, also a memoir, short time called Private Equity. It's come out. Not too long ago, she has such a natural gift for the literary craft of writing. I feel like mine was something that I had to keep fine tuning and that I know where my strengths are and I know like where my weaknesses are. i know what I'm good at when it comes to writing. I know what I'm not good at, but I just kept showing up. I think it was like the discipline of doing it. I treated it like I would sports. I treated it like I would anything else. I kept showing up to practice.
Speaker: And that for me was the way to do it. And i used to keep a backlog of stories when I was freelancing too. And it was just like, I wanted the funnel to constantly be open so that I could keep practicing. I think it was as much a growth exercise of knowing I was going to get better with every story that I did and everything that I showed up to do as actually completing something, taking it from start to finish. I think I would say most of success is just showing up.
Speaker: And I think actually showing up with intention and showing up with knowing what you want to get out of it and also not being afraid to be imperfect. I think a lot of us are from a very young age that in order to publish anything or put it out there or finish something or work on it, you have to be perfect. that The product has to be perfect. And I never treated it that way. And I think that made me more productive as a writer than somebody that probably would hoard ideas. I was not like that.
Speaker: Did you read Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert? I have not. I would probably love it. And I think she was the one who talked about the idea. Oh, no. Actually, I think it was The Creative Act by Rick Rupp. Yeah, yeah. And it's like that you have to trust that there is an unlimited supply of great ideas out there for you.
Speaker: I agree with everything you're saying. I actually just read. i don't know if you'd be into this, but – on writing, I feel like was one of the most important books about writing to me. And then yeah there was this great book that just came out by this author that she got a year to go into Stephen King's archives.
Speaker: And she basically went through Salem's Lot, The Shining, and Pet Sematary and looked at like all of his different versions and did like a really close reading of the revisions that he made. But then also again was emailing with him and like getting even more great morsels of wisdom out of him. Very cool. I love that.
Speaker: I think that's the important part too is that writing goes through so many revisions and you have to let it get better. And you've been- In writing a book, I thought the book was over so many times. I'm pretty sure revise look at different layouts and see different things that are wrong with it and make changes and go back and forth. And it's such a journey. It's not a destination. in a lot of ways, that's how i think that being a writer, honestly, is very similar to being a founder. And I think I found a lot.
Speaker: similarities between those two things that you've got to show up and put in the work, even when it's hard. You've got to be able to take an idea from start to finish. You've got to be able to take something unpolished. There's so many revisions that it's going to go through. It's going to go through so many iterations. What you start with is not necessarily what you're going to finish with.
Speaker: It's attacking a thesis in the market. a lot of times you're doing those things when you're putting these together in a lot of ways, I think. that the book and the company are like manifestations of two different versions of authoring something, authoring a framework, authoring a way of doing something, attacking a thesis. I think being a writer prepared me for being a founder in a very unique way.
Speaker: I've never thought of that. The book is called Monsters in the Archives. Okay. I'm going to to read this because I love Stephen King. I'm actually rereading The Shining right now off the back of reading this book and then listening to some podcasts, like pulling it apart. And it's such a masterwork.
Speaker: I agree. A big Stephen King fan. But I do want tell us a little bit about The Love Gap. What was the impetus for that? What was it about? It was just really pulled from my normal life, which is what I think you do when you're founding anything or starting anything. But the book was my medium that time. So I was always really interested in psychology and I was really interested in like, why don't people always do the thing they claim that they want to do? Or why don't people always opt for the thing that they say is their preference? For me at the time, that was very interesting when it came psychology.
Speaker: gender dynamics. I wrote it 10 years ago, so it's been like a long time. but It was like the early era, I think, of gender gaps and even talking about the sociology of men being left behind and women surging in the workforce and like all these different like sociological and psychological narratives that would play out in heterosexual relationships. I found that to be really interesting. Ended up putting a thesis and framework together based on some research that I had found that was really interesting. Ended up deciding, I think it would be a whole book. I was going to publish it with one of my freelance clients and The story was too big. it kept getting pared down. They kept being like, we have to make this shorter for the right long form. And then randomly the publication that I was working with folded. I'm like, it's too long for a story anyway. Maybe this is a book. And so I ended up deciding to pitch that to an agent. And then my agent pitched it to publishers. And then I ended up.
Speaker: writing it in six months. And it was a whirlwind of just a fully immersing myself into the space, like interviewing a hundred plus people about their dating lives, mostly in major metros. And just that we're all in their twenties to forties, super interesting time, just soaked up all the knowledge was a massive research endeavor.
Speaker: I learned so much about taking something start to finish. And I love the idea. and the output of that was like a framework to navigate relationships. When I think that we got really bad dating frameworks when I was younger, we were always inheriting the he's just not that into you mind of thinking and that. And I was like, Men are more complex than we give them credit for. And I think that the sociological dynamics going on in this current dating market are more complex complex than people understand. And so I loved writing that book. That was such a huge research project, huge first formative moment in my career, bringing something truly from start to finish. Learning to publish something publicly, you put your name on it and really push yourself out there. All that was very intimidating, very fun, but also just writing a book is such a huge exploration in how you relate to the subject matter. And then also just taking a project and really being able to push it out there, all your thoughts. I'm like, now there's 90,000 words out there that it lives for posterity from my head. And it's interesting that it lives in the world now, but it it was my first true product, my first true founding story. Very cool. And it sounds like it started your Silicon Valley era. I don't think I intended that at all, but yes, that was the opening. Then I was potentially going to take some content roles at dating startups or dating companies at the time. When I decided to join a dating startup and see if we could build something from scratch. And I think that was just sort of the bridge. I don't think I ever wanted to stay in dating. That was just a topic that I was tackling at the time. But i ended up realizing the innovation economy was like what really spoke to me. So it was like it's such a smooth transition. i think going from writing this book in Ann Arbor and publishing it and then going to San Francisco and kind of getting adopted by the innovation economy was nice.
Speaker: I want to shift a little bit to talk about Sisu. Can you tell us yeah who the exact types of clients that you're working with and what are the exact types of services deliverables that you are supporting them with?
Speaker: So we work with venture capital firms. That's something that we're well known for. It's about 50, 50 between venture capital firms. Startups to later stage tech companies, you're sitting in both lanes, but we work on when it's a venture capital firm, both like the firm brand building and PR and content building out marketing initiatives that can help you have something that you're known for in market.
Speaker: those deliverables can look really different from over firm. I tell people all of our engagements are bespoke, so I don't have just a simple, here's the proposal that I'm sending everybody. We have quite like a broad swath of things that we're willing to do. Very like creative comms led marketing initiatives. So sometimes we'll spit out bot buds for them and we'll be able to take them places or we'll spit up like a whole marketing initiative that sits within an event activation. And it's really built around the thought leadership of what stake do they want to plant in the ground? Or do traditional comms and we do traditional marketing and do traditional crisis, traditional advisory, lot of typical things. It's really unique. And I think part of that was just realizing that the media landscape and what does it mean to be communications professional in 2023 when I started. What that meant, I think, was getting rapidly warped into just like PR. And people were saying like, PR is dying. It's dead because media is dying. And there was a lot of this narrative, but I'm like, there's so much wrong with the space that I think people coming from outside of the space into the space, like I said, when I went into Forerunner, my first venture capital job, I went in as the head of content. So didn't necessarily go in thinking like I was going to go into communications as a function.
Speaker: they ended up helping support with the PR firm that we had on staff. They had been with us a long time and realizing like the connective thread. i think that the game of telegram that happens between leadership and like actual communications teams. Yeah.
Speaker: have to be in the right rooms in order to get the right information in order to shop things around. And the closer you are to the source, the better. So I actually like that really involved my strategy. Like i always tell people that with comms today, you got to talk to founders. You got to talk to people that are leaders in the room. Like it has to be connected to like, what is the output? Like what does success look like here?
Speaker: Cause it's not to be measured in the number of hits. Like almost never. Is that like a true comms result? But yeah, That was how I was continuously getting like things to measure our success was like hits and pitches. And I'm like, that doesn't mean anything to me as a business. What means something to me as a venture capital firm is being known for the companies that we've invested in and that are doing really well. And also planting a flag so people know where we want to invest in a future because we're always investing out behind. If we're looking at past portfolio companies, we're actually looking in the past of things that we've done in the past.
Speaker: And need to constantly be planting the flag ahead. So that's where thought leadership, which is like sort of your content engine coupled with your comms engine does really well. It's because I can create thesis around a market that I am now exploring that will hopefully get more deals through the door for me. And then I will use PR as a means to distribute that information. And so like, that was the connective tissue that I found and it works in every context. I just happened to find it in venture and that's where I started. But that's also what I realized when was working with the companies that like, there would be a lot of disconnects between like, what is the actual outcome that we're trying to get out of this? And like, what do we need to do? Like, what are the right medium or the right distribution channels to bring those to life? That was the whole thesis behind Sisu was like, we need to get really sharp what are the outcomes that we care about and remove all the noise.
Speaker: So much of what you're saying is totally resonating with me. I think also too, theme I've been thinking about lately is I noticed that sometimes when you're brought on and like for our work,
Speaker: when it's an exec or someone really close to the exec who brings us on and we get some access to them, et cetera. It's from the minute we start where they're like bought in, they're like, you are a strategic thought partner for me. And then it's like the further down the chain you get in so far as who you might be collaborating with as an agency, i think there's a higher likelihood that you'll be treated as like an execution vendor who's given directions. And then it's the work to put yourself back into the advisory position again, which is a lot of work. I don't do engagements like that. That's like what I've learned.
Speaker: We actually sit more in the realm of advising or consulting than we would sit in like a vendor. I'd say the way that our team is set up, it's like all senior led. There's nobody like truly junior on the team that doesn't have work experience or hasn't done things before. And most people on our team are like X journalists or like X venture capital, X tech, like people that have done something else in operating. I am very transparent about like what our role is. And even times like people will call us for a PR or they'll call us for content or they'll call us for one thing. And I'm like, if this isn't like functionally sitting within the strategy and like we don't actually have any like visibility into that or like input into that, like we're not just a hired hand.
Speaker: So i yeah we actually don't do that kind of work. So we actually will just self-select out a lot of that type of work, which I'm okay with. I think i love holding the line to keep the work like really in line with what I think it needs to be. And I think that for me has been a real exercise in like educating a market about what they actually do need and how a function should exist and just making sure that you're not backing down like when You could make it easier. i think that's how a lot of agencies honestly go from being like very top tier to the quality goes down because I think they start taking on more engagements. I understand that. like you agree agree You take on more responsibility and in order to do that, you do feel like you have to keep up a certain revenue. keep these things to That ends up becoming a slippery slope. So I've always said that like, we're only going to scale to the level of the work that we're turning down. That is exciting and interesting to us.
Speaker: And like, we'll probably always be boutique because like, I don't want to be a huge firm. I used to see agencies back when I was in venture, a lot of people that owned agencies, like they had to constantly tap on my door and be like, Hey, do you have work for me? Hey, we have some spots open. i was like, I don't really want to do that. I really want to do the work. And I want to be like really engaged in that. And I think part of that is being small and nimble in the right ways. And like really knowing how to stick to your guns about what type what you really want to do.
Speaker: So that's been interesting to learn. Oh my gosh, Jenna, you are speaking my language. Everything you're saying, I totally agree with. Talk to me a little bit about your day. Like you started and I'm as interested in like your morning routine and what your evening looks like as I am your workday. So give me the whole thing is or as much as you feel. yeah Yeah. I live basically 50-50 split my time between Ann Arbor, Michigan and Michigan is home. It's where I grew up. It's where my family is. So I'm currently there. And I also live in San Francisco. So the other half the time I live in San Francisco. So in order to not disrupt flow of life, I also will say my caveat is that i start my day early in San Francisco, like all my meetings begin at eight. And when I start like in Ann Arbor, all my meetings begin 11. So I try to maintain that cadence. So actually where my free time sits depends on
Speaker: what location I'm in because of the time to know changing. So that's to not disrupt meeting flow, not disrupt things like as I move back and forth between Eastern time to Pacific time. and When I am in Ann Arbor, I would say like, I try to do something in the morning. That's like more soul filling. I always do like at least a couple hours of focus work before I start my meetings. And i try to take a walk with my dog, like at the first part of my day, that is part of the routine.
Speaker: feed him breakfast, go take a walk, try to unwind and then come back to the desk and do two hours at least of uninterrupted work. Like that is usually my hope. I have my day set up so that like I have meeting days and then I have focus days.
Speaker: So if I'm on a focus day like my goals have as few meetings as possible. I would usually have a trickle over while I have to have something, but then really focus on like doing the soft work. So that for me is like often and messaging work for one my clients or like sitting down and really thinking about pitches or like actually getting in with an op-ed or thinking about what I want to do with somebody.
Speaker: That happens on focus days. And then on my meetings days, it's all like advisory strategy with the clients, taking meetings, like back to backs. So I feel like the flavor of the day is so different based on where I am. And Monday, Wednesday, Friday is like meetings. And then Tuesday, Thursday are like focus. So I will say it has taken me a long time to get the cadence of, I would say my days, because I feel like In the early days, I used to just like work around everyone's schedule, do whatever works for everybody else. I think that's client services in general, but I realized I was like, I've got to protect the time. So I always go through and do that. So i will say that caveat. I regularly forget lunch. I just get so ingrained in work. I need to be better about that. So I will say I'll roll right through. And then in the evening, I'll usually do another walk, eat dinner. And then I go back to bed. I love working from bed. I think that's probably super toxic, but I don't like to college. Like I have a bed desk where I like pop up my computer. And so like, usually I'll take a glass of wine up to my room and like, just do two hours of bed desk work before I go to bed. Admin, like it's relaxing. a place where like I can respond to things. I can like think about it, especially if it's been like a meeting day and i haven't had time to really focus on it. So I love that. So I'll go and do that. That's the last half of my day. It's become a well-oiled machine, but it took so long. I feel like my days were always so disjointed. And this year I made a real effort to start setting down a routine that was actually going to serve my mental slows.
Speaker: Okay, question. When you're doing your work in bed, do you have something like on in the background on Netflix or is it quiet? Usually music. I've learned that I will either completely miss the show. So i usually will just put on music in the background. I'm big on playlists, figuring out like what the mood of the day is. Do we need like energy because we're doing admin? and We need to like soldier through or do we need like relaxing, more like quiet music classical that's going to help us write, things like that. I think that your mental energy often will mimic the music that you hear. So I often like use music as a functioning device for how I'm supposed to be when I'm working. I remember, I think it's in the artist's way, Julia Cameron's really talking about like yeah the quiet walk. And she was like, no music because her theory is that music transports you to the consciousness of the artist who created it. That was something that was so interesting, even about my lit career. And i used to be like,
Speaker: It's so funny, like reading literature and thinking about how the author used to write it. I hate silence. I hate meditation. I've never been able to do it well. can't do it. doesn't work for me. need something. i think the music itself gives me energy in certain directions. I think that's what i enjoy. People have always been like, have you meditated? I'm like, can't it. work for so art It gives me anxiety to sit in silence. We are very different that way, but I can see everyone's so different the way that they operate, my opinion.
Speaker: One final question. Do you take your dog back and forth with you when you go between Michigan and Michigan? Yes. He's got a little 15 pound Chihuahua Terrier. So he fits neatly under the seat. So he is my constant companion. He is living a very interesting bi-coastal life, just like in my pocket all the time. He was a pandemic dog too. So he's always used to being super close to me. It's been good, but yeah, he likes it in Michigan right now, Michigan summer, beautiful backyard and sunny weather. You don't get that quite the same in San Francisco. Yeah. Yeah, it looks like you're in a very light filled, gorgeous space. Are you pretty?
Speaker: So for folks who want to look you up or follow you, where can we send them and what can we throw in the show notes for them to click into? I think LinkedIn is probably the easiest. That's usually where people come to find me. LinkedIn or my email address, I can also share. It's jen at sissybrandpr.com.
Speaker: Generous of you. Thank you. We'll put them both in there. Anything I didn't ask about that you feel like you just want to say before we sign off? I think I've realized over time, like I could not have possibly dreamt of like what shape my career would have taken, but I'm so glad I did the thing that I wanted to do versus like waiting too much, waiting too long, or like getting in my head about like the path I was supposed to take.
Speaker: So i'm always like, take the risk. I have convinced so many people in this world of writing and communications and marketing to quit their jobs and go do their own thing. I think a lot of people out there you have the urge to do it. And I think there's more opportunity than ever. So I feel like it's a constant thing. If there's like an itch that you have, or you see a gap in the market, or you think like you can do a certain kind of work.
Speaker: I know so many people that have built careers like adjacent to constant marketing that are really interesting and niche and have found their lanes. And it looked like kind of scary on the surface. I would say i've never met anyone that I've convinced to quit their job or like they've had this urge where like they decided i did that. I regret it.
Speaker: Pretty much no one has ever told me that. So I think if you've sat with it long enough and it's something that you like really have this urge to do, I'm like always telling people there's so many niches within cobs and marketing. I think that you can like really find one for you if you know what you're good at and you can kind of lean into the passion of like knowing what you can produce for people and knowing what like your right to win in market is. That's what they talk about with VCs a lot, their right to win. I feel the same way. i think being a writer, being a communicator, i think it also leads to being a good founder in general. And I think yeah take the dive. I always tell people you only live once. You're going to regret it if you don't. Most people don't seemingly regret it. So I like to tell people and remind them of that.
Speaker: think that's great advice. Thank you so much, Shanna. You're be very cool. And I really appreciate you doing this. Thank you.
