Transcript
Speaker: Jen, hi. Hi. Thank you so much for coming on Content People. I'm so happy to be here. For folks who don't know you, can you say who you are and what you do?
Speaker: I'm Jen Bulkowski, and I am the founder and CEO of a leadership development firm called Luma Collective. So we work with organizations to help develop their leaders.
Speaker: I think we'll probably spend a lot of time on that work in this conversation. But before we jump into that, can you give us your career journey up to starting Luma? When i realized what I wanted to do in high school, it was marketing and I went to school for it.
Speaker: I built my career around it. I was very clear on what I wanted out of my career journey for a very long time. So I had over 16 years in the beauty and retail space, always in marketing and just growing my career and leading bigger and bigger teams and getting to work with some amazing global brands. And that was my passion for a very long time.
Speaker: I feel like it was probably during the pandemic, like around 2020, where i just had more time on my hands and I started to get really into beauty podcasts like Los Angeles and really get obsessed with the beauty space because I do think it's a space where brand and storytelling is everything. And it feels to me like one of the most interesting places to be in marketing. When you knew you wanted to get into marketing in high school, did you have a sense you wanted it to be in beauty or was that just a...
Speaker: unexpected path. i went to school with a girl whose dad worked at L'Oreal and she would bring in makeup and stuff sometimes or tell us stories. And I remember thinking, my gosh, I want to work for L'Oreal one day.
Speaker: and When I graduated college, one of my first interviews and subsequently the job I got was at Barneys New York, which was in the same office building as L'Oreal.
Speaker: And I thought to myself, I cannot be this close to L'Oreal and not be working there. And over the course of my two years at Barney's, I ended up meeting someone in the elevator who became a friend. They worked for L'Oreal and they actually helped me get in the door and get an interview. And I left a full-time salary job to take an internship at L'Oreal because it was what I wanted from the time I was young.
Speaker: Oh my gosh, that's a great story. Yeah. I'm sure you weren't giving them an elevator pitch, but there's like an elevator kismet element to it It's interesting as I think a lot about networking and networking is really just relationship building. And that's exactly what was happening there. But it is this interesting question of how do you build a relationship or at least the start of a relationship relationship in 30 seconds in an elevator? and how that 30 seconds can change the trajectory of the rest of your life.
Speaker: How did you do it? Do you remember? i will say you're very personable. You're very warm. Is it intuitive to you or do you feel like you're putting intention out there about being open to connection? I think it is both a superpower of mine and something I actively work on, which seems impossible that it could be both of those things, but I think it depends on the situation and the moment.
Speaker: If I remember correctly, this person was carrying something that said L'Oreal, and I remember asking, Oh, do you work there? And we just started talking very briefly. And I think I said something like, I'm super interested in what's happening at the company and looking at opportunities. Would you mind if I reached out to learn more to continue the conversation? wow And it was that simple. And then I think we met and grabbed lunch and I got to ask them about what they did and who they knew and things like that. And it just spiraled from there. But I found something that I could connect back to And then i wasn't afraid to make the ask.
Speaker: think that's a really important piece is what is the ask that you really want of them and not being afraid to just say it. Yeah, I think that's really good advice. And also, too, I feel like with networking, sometimes people are afraid to make the ask, but actually a specific ask is way more likely to just feel like an easy yes to someone who genuinely probably wants to like support as opposed to something vague where they're like, I don't even know what to do or exactly what you're looking for from me. A lot of people want to help or be helpful, and they also want to know what they're signing up for. So if I just said, can I contact you? They might be like, oh gosh, I don't know. but if I said, could I grab 30 minutes sometime and ask you more about what you do? Then it seems like a really clear, easy, oh sure, i can do that. Yeah, like there's boundaries on it. Can you talk a little bit about the transition to Luma for you?
Speaker: So- I bounced around beauty and retail a little bit, two major companies. And like any, i feel like major pivot point in life, it's anchored by a dramatic experience or a trauma. And so I was in California working for Sephora in a marketing role. And at 33, so this was in 2018, I was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma.
Speaker: And that is not a diagnosis that anyone in their thirties, I think expects to have, let alone someone who's been fairly healthy. And I'll never forget the day i told my manager and my leader, her boss,
Speaker: Obviously, we all cried, all the things. And they looked at me and they said, we only want you to work as much as you want to work. And we only want you to work on the things you want to work on. Like what leader says that? They were just so unbelievably life-changing in terms of the support that I received through that recovery. And I know a lot of people don't get that from their management, which just makes me so sad. And that's a big part of why we do, just a side note, is the effect that you have on people as a leader and as a manager, it makes or breaks their experiences.
Speaker: And people have these real life things they're going through. We're not just our work selves. We have so much going on. And so they said this to me, which really dramatically changed my ability to heal. And what I realized in that moment is I loved the development of my people. That's what I wanted to focus on. I wanted to offload the marketing that I was doing. So my team managed the marketing projects and i did the leading of the team when I had the energy. And nine months later, i came back and like, And had been thinking like, wow, I really love this. If I could just keep the leadership piece and not do the marketing, that would be my dream.
Speaker: i was also... binge watching billions over the course of my recovery. Have you seen that? Not the whole way through, but I've seen, i think the first maybe three seasons. And I too, I got a little addicted to it for a bit.
Speaker: You know the premise then, it's this hedge fund, right? And there's so much drama that happens there. And I'm sure you know the character, Wendy Rhodes, who is the badass, in-house psychiatrist that helps everyone solve their problems. And i fell in love with her and the work that she does. And I woke up one morning and I was like, oh my God, i want to be a therapist for business people.
Speaker: And then my second thought was, what the hell is that? And how do I do it? And I didn't want to go back to school really, but I was open to learning, but I didn't want to do a long medical route.
Speaker: And so that started off this pivot a little bit to realizing that this was something I really wanted and loved doing. And i wanted to be able to impact many different organizations and many different leaders. And that was the impetus for going out and starting this on my own.
Speaker: It's an incredible story. And I do want to shout out that for folks who are curious on Instagram and LinkedIn, I feel like I really admire the way that you've been open about the experience you had and how you framed it. And I just really admire how you approached it. And like the fact that it brought you to Luma is beautiful. What was the first year of Luma like for you? And also too, when did you officially make the jump to be like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to start something of my own.
Speaker: There were a series of events that were happening around the time I was thinking about Luma. My capacity and my role was changing. We were in the middle of COVID. My life had moved across the country. So during COVID, I spent the summer with my sister in Washington, D.C., and i met my now husband. So that changed, again, the trajectory of my life. And my job was in San Francisco, so I had to make some decisions. And so I thought this would be a great chance for me to just see what this could be. yeah And I'm remembering now, i applied for a number of roles in talent development and learning spaces. And I was really met with, you're a very senior level and you don't have the learning background that we would need at this sort of stage. And so I just kept hitting these barriers, even though I did a lot of coaching and facilitation and workshop design, even within my marketing roles. But because I didn't have the title, i wasn't getting the interviews. And so that was another reason for saying, I'm going to see what I can do with this on my own. I would just say to anybody that is thinking about this or maybe wants to make a pivot, but is struggling in getting that role, like there is something out there for you to work in that space right now.
Speaker: It might not be what you think it is, but there's a way for you to do what you really want and love to do, no matter your background and your skills and things like that. So it's never too late to make a pivot. What was that first year like as you got your client base together and figured out your team and your services? It was challenging because I've never been a true entrepreneur before and had to learn so many things about starting a business.
Speaker: It was exciting and exhilarating. it was spacious. It was scary. it was confusing. it was so many emotions. I'm sure you probably know it too as a founder yourself, but it was a lot of learning, a lot of experimenting And really empowering.
Speaker: So I tell people the very first paycheck I got, and I was lucky, i was able to pivot my relationships into a first organizational relationship, right? An organizational client or... engagement, if you will. And so I took that first paycheck and I hung it on my wall and I wrote a note to myself that said, this gives you to the end of the year because I knew that I had just enough to pay my bills and to be okay. And I started Luma on April 1st, which happens to be my birthday. so it was like a whole lot of new energy for me.
Speaker: And I just kept looking at that and said, don't worry about what next year brings. Just focus on this year. Make it the best you can. And then when that second paycheck came, i hung that out on the wall and I said, you have another year or whatever it was, or you have another month. Yeah. And I still do that to this day, like almost five years later. No, it resonates with me. I love that story. Definitely. I feel like I found the first year, even if you know going in, you're like, it's gonna be scary and it's going to be disorienting.
Speaker: That doesn't detract from it being scary and disorienting in the moment. And I feel like mentally I did actually what you do where I'd be like, all right, we just landed this project. That's about six months of runway. Don't stress too much. And I feel like that was a helpful way to do it for sure.
Speaker: So now, like nearly five years later, what do clients come to Luma for? So we... do all forms of leadership development. But what we really specialize in, I would say, is a few different things. One is large-scale experiences. So we are a custom leadership development firm, meaning we build experiences Everything we do varies specifically for our clients, and we can do that at scale. So right now, for example, I'm working with a team of over 400, and we have a variety of different touch points we're doing across a year, and we have single one-on-one engagements, right? All the way up to hundreds and even thousands of people that are interacting with us on varying capacities.
Speaker: And so that is pretty unique in the range in which we can scale. What are the moments where they're like, we need Luma or Jen? So the other thing that I feel like we get a lot of calls for is when people want to invest in their leaders and invest in development, and they want to know that they're going to see change. So a lot of learning tends to be one and done.
Speaker: And you have that amazing experience and you're inspired and then you leave and Monday comes along and you've forgotten all of it. So because we focus on a variety of different leadership topics,
Speaker: There's nothing that we don't essentially get calls for. But that stickiness piece is a piece that a lot of people are looking for that they don't know they need. And I'll tell you some of the big themes lately. I think the world has been in flux and in change. And change management, collaboration through change has been some really big focus areas. Psychological safety and things like that through change have been hot topics.
Speaker: And When you go back to this thinking about the therapy for business people, I find that what people are mostly looking for is support in somebody that can be an objective person.
Speaker: Yeah. Community with who they work with and confidence in the skills they have. So it's less about like the what that we teach on, train on, experience, things like that. And more about the why.
Speaker: I want to make sure I've got those three things. They feel powerful to me. So the first one was like an objective thought partner. essentially The second was community and purpose. And then the third was support and building up their skills. Did I get that right? Their confidence. Your confidence.
Speaker: And yeah. You all work with leaders and folks across all levels. Am I right? Yeah. I'm curious, on the exec and leader level right now, feel like you have insight into the brains of a lot of leaders across many different industries. What are some of the themes that in sessions the Luma team keeps coming up to again and again and again where it's like, aha, all these leaders are struggling with XYZ right now?
Speaker: I would say one of the biggest things that I've seen is how to motivate their teams. Because more than ever, there's a lot of change. There's so much change in the world, but even within organizations, there's so much change happening right now. And so through change, there are so many things that happen, even if you do it as best as you can. One is there's natural fear,
Speaker: Right. That happens. There's a natural lack of motivation, especially if change has been prolonged. And there's a safety element, like a psychological safety element and team camaraderie that gets upended.
Speaker: And so the two things that I think we're mostly seeing are how you navigate through change and I'll say push it down in a way that feels like the organization isn't just being told what to do, but also how do we bring them along? And and then the other person is how do we keep people motivated in times where we don't have a lot of promotions to give, where there is a lot of change happening, where teams are being restructured or when layoffs are happening? Yeah.
Speaker: So that's the thing that comes to mind for me. And- What are your thoughts? Like, how do you keep folks motivated? If historically, it was like, there was a really strong sense of community on the team, but if the team's transforming, being downsized or just being reorg, that's not there anymore.
Speaker: Number two, if it is a time with the organization where they're like, we actually don't have promotions, we're pushing off raises. There's just been so much economic complexity for so many orgs.
Speaker: How do you help? What is some of the advice that you give those leaders to keep their teams motivated? So motivation, you can't give people motivation. Motivation is something that is intrinsically linked to each of us. And so what you need to do as a leader is find out what motivates your people.
Speaker: And it's different for everyone. So i always go back to curiosity. And when you think about, okay, we know people want raises. We know people want higher titles. But there's so much more that people want. They want acknowledgement and recognition. They want community. They want responsibility.
Speaker: They want to be able to... Instacart their groceries, which is more expensive because they don't have time to go to the grocery store because they want to spend it with their one-year-old, not talking about myself here.
Speaker: And sometimes that raise means that I can actually do that thing in my life that I feel like I can't do now, but it's not really about the raise in the title. It's just about, I want a little bit more discretionary income to spend on this. Right. And so when you know that about your employees, you can think about what would motivate Jen or someone else, right? Maybe actually what she could use is like $100 Instacart, I'm making it up, gift card as a thank you for this amazing big project she just did. or what would be a really awesome growth opportunity?
Speaker: Or how might we make people feel like they're being brought along on this journey? Because the number one reason why you stay or leave a company is your relationships, most often with your manager, but also with your peers.
Speaker: And so there are so many different elements that go into motivating and finding out what motivates people that it's just about getting curious. In some ways, as you're talking about it, it's reminding me a little bit of your elevator story in that you're paying attention. you're open to people, you're starting conversations. I'm thinking of some folks I've managed in the past. I feel like for some people, what you're talking about comes very naturally. And the folks that they manage, they are attuned they're paying attention to, they're thinking thoughtfully about what could mean something to them. And then for other people who are
Speaker: Otherwise kind of good managers, I do think there's sometimes more of an interpersonal hurdle where I'm thinking of a few people I've managed in the past who were lovely, but that level of interpersonal attention and connection was something they really had to work at.
Speaker: What are some simple things if someone is like, I actually struggle with that, that what are some things you'd say to them to help them uplevel their skill set in that way? I love that you acknowledge that because you're right. It comes instinctually for some managers and it's really challenging for others. And this is some of what we work with leaders on when we're coaching them or when we're in groups is both what is your impact on others and the way you naturally lead? And how do you think about the leader you want to be and actually start to make changes towards that?
Speaker: And the difference between who you are today and who you want to be, it's intention and practice. That's it. So I would say for those people that it doesn't come naturally, it's going to require you to be a little bit more intentional and for you to set some...
Speaker: standards or frameworks or strategies to remind yourself. So the person who's not naturally thinking, I need to check in with my team, maybe once a month calendar reminder for yourself to say team check-in or something like that can just help you remember what oh, wanna be more mindful of celebrating birthdays, or I'm working with an organization on uncomfortable collaboration and bravery, right? How we have the hard conversations in the room. And so maybe it's at the end of the month, you wanna recognize three people who have had really hard conversations in very open and kind ways.
Speaker: And that's hard to remember when we're running a million miles an hour. So it's about just being intentional, setting those reminders, however you work best, and just practicing.
Speaker: i love that. I think that's really good advice. Okay. I have a few other questions and then I want to get to some other things. But yeah I really want to pick your brain about this because I feel like you have such interesting insight and perspective. What do you feel like on the independent contributor level right now?
Speaker: or maybe just first-time managers, what are some of the things that you're noticing those folks are thematically struggling with in this current environment? The first is overwhelm a and overwork.
Speaker: I feel like prioritization comes up constantly, managing your emails, your calendars, right? Taking control of your own schedule sounds simple, but it's really hard at an individual contributor level. yeah I'll separate the two because I think they're a little bit different. But for individual contributors, I think that's one piece. And overwhelm and overwork is happening at every level. Burnout is a big topic. Resiliency is a big topic.
Speaker: The other thing with both individual contributors and first-time managers is also taking control of your career. i think there's a lot of expectation that my manager is going to give me projects and they're going to tell me when I'm ready for a promotion and they're going to help guide me. And at an individual contributor level, for the most part, your manager is probably a new manager.
Speaker: They have no idea what they're doing either, right? I didn't know what I was doing when I was a first-time manager. It took me many years, and I'm still learning what to do to be a great manager. So there's also an element of taking control and ownership of your own destiny, right, of your career, of your goals, of your career.
Speaker: objectives of the projects that you're working on, of the things you want to lean into and how you tactfully ask for what you want. So to try and say it back to you, it's that you notice that obviously there's some things that maybe are a touch out of their control, like feeling a little bit overwhelmed, feeling overworked. But one thing you thematically notice is that number one, they could have a bit more like the locus of control, or they could have a bit more ownership over how they're structuring their day, how they're managing up. And then you're making the point that
Speaker: If you're an independent contributor, potentially your manager is a newer manager and don't expect that they know what they're doing. Figure out what you want, advocate for yourself. it's right It's like the same things you were saying about upper level of you need intention and practice. So it's like, what's my plan? And then how am I going to try and get this for myself? It's pretty universal. The leadership challenges at all levels, a lot of them overlap. It's just the depth of risk and impact that that really changes. All right. I want to like zoom out a little bit and just hear about your whole day. So I'm curious to not just the work stuff, but like the morning routine, the evening routine. I know there's no average day, but what does a normal enough day look like for you?
Speaker: I try to preserve my mornings to a little of an extent because I have a 14-month-old. And so I try to snooze as long as I can until he screams and needs me to get up. But he's pretty good about staying in his crib for a little bit and letting me wake up slowly. So I get up with him and I love my time in the morning. He's typically really happy. We have breakfast, we get dressed and ready for school.
Speaker: And then my husband and I take him to daycare and I start into my day. And i have started to be a little bit more intentional about the things i want to accomplish in a day because I have a tendency of having a to-do list that's a mile long and then feeling like I haven't been productive at all because I've crossed off one thing or I've crossed off like half things all day long. And so I'm really trying to be intentional about setting the three things I want to accomplish that day. And that's it, if that's even realistic.
Speaker: And my days look different at work, which I love. One day I'm facilitating a workshop. The next time I'm building content. The next day, maybe I have clients. The day after that, I'm trying to figure out how do I fit more people on Zoom than I've ever done before. And then i also really try to preserve my evenings because, again, it's my time with my family. And typically I pick my son up from daycare and we sit in the back of our car and we watch the airplanes outside of school while we have a little snack. I swear he's going to be a pilot when he's a year. But we sit and have a snack and take a little walk when we get home and just have a nice kind of bedtime routine. And sometimes I'll log back on. Sometimes I'll...
Speaker: binge watch a show or something like that. Every day from a work perspective is different, but I really try to maintain the consistency with the family because that's one of my biggest struggles as a mom and a business owner is how do I find time for all of the things that I love?
Speaker: I appreciate that. It sounds like a nice routine. I also know you are a really big reader. So it occurs to me, maybe specific to work, are there like five titles that you would recommend to nearly anyone?
Speaker: Yes, I'm going to turn to my bookshelf as I think about this. a Few ones I love. Essentialism. Okay. It's a great book for anyone who's feeling like they're taking on too much and overwhelmed.
Speaker: The Speed of Trust is another one which gives you great tips and tricks for thinking about how do you build trust and how quickly trust can both be built and also be killed. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: That's Stephen Covey. And playing big is maybe one you wouldn't expect. But playing big, especially for any women out there that find themselves intimidated at their jobs, maybe not doing what they love, really anything where you want a little bit of bravery and courage, that book by Tara Moore changed my world. Wow. recommend it to everyone. Change your questions, change your life is another one. i am very much about curiosity and how great questions can get you so much, right? It can help you understand your employees. It can help you understand yourself better. It can give you empathy for your partner or your kids.
Speaker: And then... I also love anything Simon Sinek. Start with the why, find your why anything like that. I think for leaders as much as business owners, that can be really great to think about. Why do you do what you do?
Speaker: Yeah, that's where we find motivation is doing something we really feel passionate about and feel like we love. It's never about the what or the how.
Speaker: Sometimes it's fun, but it's not the driving force. It really is like, what's our purpose? What's our why? Yeah. I want to say it before we wrap up, I'm always so inspired talking to you. i feel like the concept of that why is such a through line through everything that you do and a reminder of the purpose that we can kind of tap into when we're being really thoughtful and intentional about the work we do and how we work with the people around us. We spend so much time at work.
Speaker: More time at work than we spend with our families, than we spend with anyone else or doing anything else. And so I really believe it's so important to be fulfilled and to be happy. And that doesn't just mean if you're unhappy, go find another job because the grass is not always greener on the other side. The grass is greenest where you water it.
Speaker: So you have power as a leader, as an employee to change the dynamic with those around you, whether it's your team, your peers, your leaders, you have intrinsic power.
Speaker: And at Luma, we believe a leader is not a title that's handed to you. It's something that you step up into for yourself. Yeah. So I think that why it becomes so important. I'm passionate about people loving what they do and feeling like I'm fulfilled in this.
Speaker: And so if they can take control over having better experiences, then my job's done. love it. For folks who are interested to follow you or work with Luma, where can we send them?
Speaker: I personally love brainstorming. So if you have a challenge, just want to talk it through, want to think about like how to handle what could be a good approach. Our website is great. There's lots of contact information on there or LinkedIn.
Speaker: All right. We'll put your website and LinkedIn in the show notes. So folks listening can scroll. Jen, thank you so much. This was such a pleasure. It's so lovely to be with you.
