Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the Italian football podcast. Hello everybody and welcome to the Italian football podcast. I'm Carlo Garganese here as always with Nima Tavale. So now officially the 2022 -23 club season is over. Unfortunately, it didn't have the ending that we hoped for, especially for Inter fans who saw their team lose one nil to Manchester City in the Champions League final in Istanbul.
Speaker: It's really unlucky defeat for Inter, who deserves so, so much more from that final. We'll be reviewing the match or the fallout. How and why did Inter fall so agonisingly short in this final? Where did Inter go from here? What about Romelu Lukaku, who has become fairly or unfairly the scapegoat of the defeat after missing that open goal to equalise?
Speaker: What about Italian football as a whole? We've been in three finals. People have talked about Italian football being back, but three defeats. So, yeah, very, very difficult end of the season for Serie A. Elsewhere, we will remember the life of former AC Milan president Silvio Bellasconi, who has died aged 86, the most successful football president in history, in Italy, the most successful football president of all time in the world at the time of him leaving Milan.
Speaker: So we will talk about what he did at Milan on this pod today. Spezia have been relegated after losing the play -out to Verona in a thrilling game on Sunday evening, we'll discuss that. And also finally, Italy's under 20s lose in the World Cup final to Uruguay, yet another final defeat for an Italian team. We are cursed in finals at the moment.
Speaker: So lots to talk about. For all our first time listeners, this is our free weekly episode which we do every Monday, reviewing the weekend Serie A action and all the biggest talking points in Italian football. If you want to support the Italian football podcast and receive all of our content that we do throughout the week including our Q &A weekly episode every Tuesday where we answer all the questions sent in from our Patreons.
Speaker: plus the weekly thursday midweek review show plus interviews post -match reaction and much much more then go to patreon .com slash TIP and become a subscriber for just $2 .99 a month plus VAT and for all of you listening on spotify itunes apple podcasts
Speaker: We'd really appreciate it. Give us a five -star rating. Give us a follow and a subscribe to us as this really helps us grow. I should just add before we start that as the club season is over, we will still be continuing as normal on the Italian Football Podcast. We will still have this free weekly episode every Monday and we will have the Q &A every Tuesday.
Speaker: On Thursday, we will switch things up a little bit. What we do is our Thursday show will become a transfer show throughout the summer, like we always do during the summer. And we will be bringing on guests, transfer journalists, mainly to discuss the transfer market, to give us insight of what is happening, who's moving, who's joining, who's leaving the big clubs.
Speaker: And also we will be doing analysis, of course, on the transfers as they happen, including special reaction podcasts when a big transfer happens or when an interesting transfer story happens, we will be doing that.
Speaker: Things will continue as normal and as usually happens, actually, there's actually more interest in the summer when there's no football than there is during the actual season. Football, tap joy, it never sleeps. So we will be doing plenty still during the summer. And also don't forget, there's still a lot of international football going on, Italy and the Nations League coming up this week.
Speaker: Also the under 21 euros is about to start and there's the Women's World Cup and there's there's other youth tournaments So there is a lot of football still going on that we will be talking about Okay, then let's get into the show and let's start talking about insert in the Champions League final Okay, Nima so inter lose one nil in Istanbul to Manchester City goal from Roger E midway through the
Speaker: the second half, my overwhelming emotion from this game, and I'm not an Interfan, is that to be very, if you're an Interfan, to be very, very proud of your team's performance, but also, gosh, Inter could have won this final. I mean, they were unlucky. They were. But I think the overwhelming feeling of all these four finals that Italian teams have lost in the last three weeks is the same.
Speaker: very well organized, unlucky to come short at the very end, but there is a qualitative difference overall in each one of these finals that made itself, made its presence felt. And I think that's why Italy didn't win any of these games and finals. But it shows that Italian football
Speaker: is still very competitive that Italian football is amongst the best in the world but when it comes to club level especially money matters finances matter and if you look at how you need depth to compete on several fronts and the Italian teams don't have that depth they just don't have the money to have that depth and that's why they fall short
Speaker: generally speaking without going into the details because I think a lot of it is you look at Roma look at Fiorentina very very close all very close probably created more chances than each one of their final opponents finalist opponents but overall that that quality football is about scoring goals and the quality up front just isn't there for the Italian teams
Speaker: And that costs money, money they don't have. And the others do. And that's that's where we are, where we are. But I think overall, this is this was very, very tight. I'm incredibly proud of Inter, as an Interista, not speaking as a journalist here, but speaking as an Interista. This is what this Inter did from March and onwards when we got into the business end and the way that they that the way that
Speaker: They delivered and kept keep winning. I mean, what is it? 11 wins out of 13 in the last 13 games across all competitions and doing so rotating and showing a team spirit and unity.
Speaker: That is the most important thing, because Inter fans are now fully united behind this team. These players, they really respect and love this team now, in a way, because Inter has always been a very fragmented fan base. A lot of disagreements. We're not like a fan base like Uventini, who are soldatini, as Cassano would say it. You're united, it's Juve and all that, Mila in the same way.
Speaker: is not as fragmented as Interfans are. Interfans are incredibly fragmented, but when they unite, when they decide that we rally behind something, that doesn't happen very often. It's happened maybe three or four times, twice, really, in my lifetime. Once, of course, famously under Jose Mourinho, and this time around as well.
Speaker: And the way that Inter played, the way that they suffered, as we were going to talk about the tactics especially, I kept banging on about it's important to know how to suffer, and Inter did. They worked so hard, but the last quality, that final killer instinct that you need in the final third to win these big, to win these trophies, isn't there, just wasn't there.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I agree with agree with with all that about into I thought the game plan was spot on the selective pressing was perfect. Oh, actually, so you mean that there is such a thing as selective pressing, because I was told according to some people that inter just, you know,
Speaker: went out and had fun because there's no such thing as selective pressing. Some Irish, Spanish name sounding moron on The Independent said something really, really stupid about how UNTA was just basically vibes and didn't understand. And that was in his piece. He said, at some points, one of the strikers presses and the other doesn't. Selective pressing. Imagine that.
Speaker: But yes, Interhave Selective Pressing, and they were tactically perfect because Simone Inzagi showed he passed his exam with flying colors. There was nothing tactically he could have done more.
Speaker: No, I mean, I'm surprised. I mean, they surprised City by pressing as high up as they did. It wasn't a high press, but it was a midfield middle press. And I've never seen ever seen City's midfield struggle so much to get through that middle third of the field. I mean, a lot of this game was played in the middle third. Yes, of course, City had more of the possession, but actually not that much possession by City's levels.
Speaker: I think it was 59 % at the end of the game, something like that, which is the city is not a lot, but they've struggled. They couldn't get through that middle third. I mean, you said that Inter suffered. I don't think they really did suffer that much, not sustained. There was very little sustained pressure. When I mean suffer, I mean the work without the ball, to do that selective pressing that Inter did down the flanks with Barella, Chalanoglu, Bastoni, Darmian.
Speaker: that it costs so much energy to do that. It's painful to do that and to be able to sustainably do that for 90 minutes. I mean, Citi had no idea, yeah, for sure. I mean, Citi had no ideas. They couldn't, I mean, their passing was off, Citi. Totally. I've never seen players like Rodri and Gundogan pass as badly. And like, you know, even at some times they were kicking the ball away. Citi never do that. They never kick the ball away and get rushed into pop just to putting it in down the,
Speaker: down the bylines into spades they always find the man you know and so it was a tactical master class it doesn't you know don't always have to win for it to be a tactical master no no no it was a tactical master class and the only i think people need to separate a few things tactical master class is not the same thing as formation or or personnel choice i think personnel choice wise
Speaker: I think it was a mistake to not start Lukaku. I think it showed because I think the presence of Lukaku when he comes on, he's not an impact sub and he's never going to be.
Speaker: I think Jeko just ran himself into the ground on the 55th minute, and I think that was expected. I would rather have started Lukaku, otherwise, to see, just to have that out, to see how they would have reacted. Yeah, well, I mean, I guess we'll never 100 % know. I mean, we'll come on to Lukaku, we've got a segment on that, and I'll give my feelings on also what you just said there. But I mean, just in terms of, I just think team as a whole, in terms of the tactics, I mean,
Speaker: You know, they limited City to so few chances. I mean, if you're looking at clear, clear chances, I mean, for me, the only real clear, clear big chance that City had was Foden at 1 -0 when he ran through and he should have scored. And it was a good save. It wasn't a good finish. It wasn't in the corner. It didn't hit it hard enough.
Speaker: Apart from that, there were no clear chances. I mean, the first half there was Silva when DiMarco backed off too much and he curled it and he went just wide. But that was, you know, I wouldn't say that wasn't a clear chance. It was just a really good bit of play. Not the best defending from DiMarco. And he did a bit of magic and he curled it. And then Harlan's chance when he was at a very tight angle and Nonana stuck his hand out. I mean, that's a half chance, I think. That's not a clear chance. It's a half to a three -quarter chance.
Speaker: and you know apart from that i mean you know the goal was not a clear chance there were so many bodies in the way with the goal they with the goddess and it came from a very fortuitous i mean pastoni makes the original error of course the leponada still were getting behind that's the error that intimate but in terms of the actual creator chance he puts it across the box and deflects right into the party so it's fortunate it's lucky how it come to roger's feet
Speaker: And then you have three bodies in the way, plus the goalkeeper. I mean, I'm not sure what the XG would have been on that, but it would have been low, because you've got all those bodies in the way. You expect a body to block that, but you just found that tiny little gap in the corner. Chalanoglu happened to move out of the way of the ball, and it went in. But if you're limiting City to that few chances, and that few, I mean, if you look at where City had the ball in this game,
Speaker: A lot of the time, it was in areas where they couldn't hurt Inter. Inter kept City away from the dangerous areas. No, they did. They made City look ordinary. They looked an ordinary team. And I know some people say, and I've seen it in the English media, and this is what always happens whenever England or an English team play bad, is instead of giving credit to the opposition, they generally say, well, we play badly. That's the usual.
Speaker: that's the usual nonsense that's the usual nonsense that is part of the drivel that we hear about how superior this is what I meant when I was on talk sport with that guy who was so triggered I mean this is the this is the kind of stuff I'm talking about this notion that when things if if if English teams or the English national team doesn't win it's because England were bad not because the others were good and
Speaker: That's the headline of all of this behavior, all the premise that we talk about is, it's coming home. Not the song itself. It's a complete red herring to talk about the song itself, because the song itself is actually a brilliant song, which the lyrics are about suffering and longing, which every football fan in the world can identify with. But the slogan, it's coming home, has become like the brand name of all this stupid behavior that we've been seeing nonstop for 20, 30 years, which is incredibly disrespectful to everyone and anyone.
Speaker: That isn't you know that that isn't English essentially. It's so chauvinistic this notion that When things are when things are on the up and up and when we deliver we win otherwise Something is wrong or the referee. Do you know what I mean? Like this kind of this this this nonsense, you know How many italy and brazil players get into the England team how many intermina uva players get into that? I don't know
Speaker: I mean, I'm sure City were a little bit nervous. I mean, I think they were a bit nervous. You could see, I'm sure that was part of it. I mean, we saw Edison, I never see Edison give the ball away as many times as he did in the first half. That obviously, you can put that down to nerves.
Speaker: You know the big occasion of course of course that plays Robert city you know they were they it was down to into more than anything else from making city look ordinary cuz cuz cuz in zaggy got his his tactics spot because this is how good see morning zaggy is he is when when
Speaker: When he has a united team behind him, as he has now, you see this is the thing though with Simonin Zaghi, which you know, there are different styles of management. Simonin Zaghi doesn't do management by fear like Antonio Conte or Max Alegri. He's much more modern in his approach, this kind of management by consent, meaning if you win the hearts and minds of people by appealing to their intellect,
Speaker: once you win them over, they will die for you. And you saw that with, to some extent, that's what Mourinho did, although Mourinho built this kind of siege mentality, us against the world. But that's, you know, this is what you see with this Inter. I mean, when Bastoni says that, yes, tactically speaking, I'm a Guardiola player, but I'm an Inzagiano, you know, I fight for my coach. This is what Inzaghi's built. He's playing a football that is,
Speaker: He's very versatile. He is a football that is solid defensively, but Inter can also control games and dictate midfield and can control the midfield. Superior passing, patient build -up. Inter are very, very patient under this coach and this style of play, and I think they're on to something. This is how they need to play. No more tinkering about, and they need to have a mercato accordingly as well.
Speaker: Yeah, because we'll come to that. Yeah, we'll come to that Nimmer about where to go next. But just sticking on the theme of, you know, how interplayed and everything. And, and just, again, just want to underline just how proud I think inter players, fans, the team should be because everybody, as we said, I would invite everybody to go on to Nimmer's Twitter and see what he posted out on, was it Friday, wasn't it? Before the final. In fact, I tweeted out, gone to my Twitter, and you'll find the link anyway, and
Speaker: it's hilarious because
Speaker: everybody was expecting city to hammer into. Let's not say pretend what this Martin Samuel was saying about, you know, I haven't heard anybody say that. Well, like I told him, I'm not responsible for what you hear. I'm responsible for what I say. I mean, but it's like it's saying this notion that as if that is some kind of evidence, it's like, well, you live in your bubble. I have open eyes. I see everyone sees like literally the everyone with, you know, even even the even a semi sentient potato knows what I'm talking about.
Speaker: It's embarrassing that he would even take that line of saying, well, I've never seen that, and he's always negative. It's like, no, it's not, and there's nuances to it, and also it's got nothing to do with the song. He also said that nobody in the English media was saying that everybody, they were all saying it would be a close game. You haven't seen anybody say that it would be a big win. Well, I'm sorry. Okay, then let's read up then.
Speaker: called Lautaro Bang Average. Inter Milan had no chance against Real Madrid or Man City in Istanbul. Their derby wins showed just how poor Serie A is. Inter have no chance. Their semi was a mastercast. The Milan derby was a plastercast. They were better at kicking each other than the ball. Enjoy tonight's game. It is the final.
Speaker: Let's read up on just a few examples. I know you do and that's the one I was referring to.
Speaker: Paul Merson, Sky, there's no way in a million years. The 4 -0 defeat was the final. Paul Merson, there's no way in a million years into compete man city. Craig Burley, who absolutely detests Italian football, like you can just see it in his just how much he hates Italian football. The final is going to be very one sided into having beaten the strongest opposition to get to the final. Craig Burley again, Serie A is a league of has beens. Yeah.
Speaker: I mean Jamie O 'Hara talks sport into have absolutely no chance against this Man City team. Harry Redknapp, Man City will win no doubt. My favorite though I got to say is football 365 with a ridiculous article about how this is the biggest mismatch in Champions League history.
Speaker: Jason Cundee. Inter would get torn apart if City played like did it against Real. Paul Hayward. Daily Mail. Inter simply can't win 1 -0. James Benghis. CBS. Man City will win 3 -0. I don't give Inter even a chance. What is less than a chance? A shot.
Speaker: And that's just the tip of the iceberg of the dribble. I noted these ones down. That was just like a day after the semifinal. I stopped counting after that because I didn't have enough time. It's too many. No, there's too many. No, exactly. It's a four time job. So we went from this, we went from this to, you know, obviously into lost one nil. But I mean, it was so close. And, you know, when you look at the difference in finances, yes, it should have been a five nil went
Speaker: Foot for man city in finances, you know when you've got man city I've spent two over two billion in the last you know, this is what in the last last five years into our 55th in Europe for next spend 55th in Europe just that just just let that sink in Jack Grealish cost more than the entire Inter team the entire inter team that started in on in the final
Speaker: On Saturday, British cost, I think, by quite a distance, more. So what Marotta's done, you know, Giuseppe Marotta, we have to give credit to him as well, but what he's done with the team, you know, a lot of free transfers, a lot of loans, a lot of wheeling and dealing, having to sacrifice, lose self -players, star players, like Lukaku, originally two years ago, like Hakimi, originally two years ago, you know, Scrinya's going to go this summer,
Speaker: You know, so what they've done is amazing. But so that that's why I think Interfan should be very, very proud because that, you know, this wasn't a this wasn't a fair contest in terms of the resources on offer. And also, and also, let's be honest, in terms of, you know, playing by the rules as well. We all know it's not, you know, we're not BT Sport. We're not going to do a three year program and ignore the big fat elephant that's in the room, you know.
Speaker: the city are charged with 115 offenses. There's an asterisk that goes next to every single title that city have won during that period and including this Champions League final. I'm not saying enter a squeaky clean. They've had their issues as well, but we're talking about levels here and we're talking about what city have done. So, Inter should be very, very proud because to overcome this difference is magnificent. And to deserve to win the final, that's what makes it really frustrating.
Speaker: It was there i think i felt it was there for the taking and they just didn't take their chances no they didn't and that's that's where you. That's where the quality i think shows i think you need to have more you need to have more quality in the final third and quality like that in the final third cosplay.
Speaker: And I think Laotaro was too isolated. I still thinking they would have had more chances and maybe scored if Lukaku had started because I think, again, Lukaku is not an impact sub. I don't think he's the kind of guy who needs minutes to get going and to continuously go against his defender. And then Jeko offered absolutely nothing in this regard. And this was a mistake by Inzagi. But look, I understand the argument for against.
Speaker: And by the time that Lukaku came on, Inter had put themselves in a position to win the game. So you could say, yeah, maybe they would have been winning by that point. Well, that's exactly it, because I don't want to chase the game. That's what I'm saying. You shouldn't be chasing the game. When you're chasing a game, you don't bring Lukaku on. Lukaku is not that kind of a thing. They weren't chasing the game. Yes, I know. But what I'm saying is that by that time, they should have been 1 -0 up. That was, for me, the game plan. I think the game plan
Speaker: From that aspect, I disagree with Simonon. I wanted to see Lukaku start. I know there's always going to be a debate. It's always going to be, what ifs isn't there in football? That's just the name of the game. But I think that Inter, at the time that Lukaku came on, I think it was before that, I think it was like the 55th minute, because he had plans. At the time of the 55th minute, I think Inter, right at that time, were feeling absolutely delighted with the way that the game was going. And they're thinking, right,
Speaker: We've got 35 minutes left of this game. We're in 0 -0, and now we've got Lukaku coming on to make the difference in the final third. We'll come on to Lukaku in a bit, but just talking as a whole, Inter had the chances to win this game. I mean, Lautaro, when he should have cut back, DiMarco hitting the bar. Lukaku obviously missing an open goal. We'll come on to him and blocking the header from DiMarco as well. But also, there's a lot of occasions, and this is definitely a quality issue,
Speaker: where the final ball let him sit down. Gothen's crossing was terrible after coming on. Denzil Dumfries went when Barilla, I mean his passing and awareness and technical. And Belenova as well, his crossing. Yeah, I mean, he's a young kid, like this is what I mean, like, you know, these things show. And, you know, Romelu Lukaku, like I said, he can still be a top -level striker, but he'll never be world -class again, like he was on Antonio Con. But the XG in this game, 0 .91 to Manchester City,
Speaker: 2 .007 for Inter. Now, just, I mean, that is, that is unbelievable. I mean, when, how often do you see Man City have an XG of less than one for star? And how often do you see a team also in that situation have create more and come more higher quality chances against them? You know, that's what XG is. It's just a tool to, which I think the name is a bit
Speaker: misleading. It shows you the chance creation. It shows you the equality and the big chances created. It shows you the cumulative chance creation and the quality of the chances. Inter did create good chances, maybe not the...
Speaker: at the end it was a little bit frantic. But yeah, it's been the story of a little bit of inter -season, hasn't it? Like create chances but not have that finishing killer instinct. Up until like March, then they suddenly started putting their chances away and then it crept back in on the biggest sign. That's because, you know, over the course of a season, these things show, you know, the quality makes itself shown. And I think that's what inter -lack the most. Inter -need a killer in the box. And I think it's for me,
Speaker: Edin Jeko, thank you so much for these fantastic two years. You are a fantastic player in terms of football IQ, the quality, but you're 37 years old and it's time for you to leave.
Speaker: Quacking Correa, you should never have been signed. Arrivederci. To be honest with you, all the attackers, it was the inter -attackers that let Inter down in this game. No one else. You know, I know some people have been saying, oh, Chalanogli didn't play very well. Borrello was a little bit disappointing. You know, Bastoni, okay, should have done better on the goal. I mean, you know, that's all valid. But I think at the end of the day, it was Inter's attackers that fought in this game. Jeko,
Speaker: Lautaro, Lukaku, those three, but in particular, Lautaro had the chance. But Lautaro, we've had this debate so many times, just what level is Lautaro at? And I think this again showed that Lautaro, he isn't elite level. He's
Speaker: No, it depends on what you expect him to be. He's not a striker. I always maintain that he's a nine and a half. He's a seconda punta. And as a seconda punta, he has no peers in the world. He is not a striker because a striker, a killer, you consistently score. Filippo Inzagi was not perhaps the greatest player to play the game, but the brother didn't know how to put the ball into the back of the net. Like, you know what I mean?
Speaker: But he's playing in the front, but he's playing in the front too. He's playing in his position in this game. And, you know, he didn't do it. He didn't, he didn't perform. He didn't perform, not, not scoring and not, not just, it's just his overall play. I think I saw someone that he won two of his 10 deals in this game. And, you know, his,
Speaker: is that
Speaker: He just doesn't have the IQ in the area to make the right run. He made a terrible one, but I think it was Brozovic on the edge of the area. Brozovic, one of the two was free on the edge of the area. I mean, that was bad. And his overall game, yeah, he didn't do enough. And then Lukaku, who we're coming to as well, obviously missed the chances. So, I mean, I think it's Inter's attack that let them down in this game. And Lukaku, especially with his, I mean, with being frank, he's costing two goals in this game.
Speaker: No, I don't know. I don't think that the first goal where he was hit the second one where he was. I don't think you can blame him on that because it's like the ball. It was too close. It wasn't like people trying to make it like Alexei Sanchez in the Champions League a few years ago. I don't. I think that's unfair.
Speaker: Um, but the, that, that first goal, the, the missed open goal thing is that's not good. No, no. That is virtually, it's virtually unmissable. It's almost, it's pretty much unmissable that chance. I mean, there's only one place you can put that. But this is what I mean. This is what I'm saying. He's not that impact sub. You need, he needs to have minutes to get going because he's, he's got a big body. It takes a lot for him to get going. And
Speaker: When he's up and firing on all cylinders, then he scores that and this is why I was against him coming on as a sub because he we've seen this throughout his tenure. He needs to get going. He's like a he's like a machine, a big machine that you need to fire up.
Speaker: All engines before they can actually fire and that's why he's not a Impact so I think I think his overall game. I think he caused trouble I mean that stuff that stuff happened when he got the ball, you know, his finishing was abysmal But but you know things did happen like he had that when he went out onto the I think was on the left and he put it dragged it wide He had the one where he I think he he was on the right hand side, but he shot straight at Edison obviously then, you know, he was in the right place for
Speaker: Well, let's say the wrong place with DeMarco's header, but the right place for the for the header I wonder if that goal would have been allowed Because I the one that when it when it first came I was like DeMarco's offside. I
Speaker: like that was my no no he was on DiMarco was on side I'd check that out yeah he was on the header that came over looped over he was on side he was on side I don't know about the second phase but the first phase DiMarco yeah that's the first place I was thinking about yeah yeah no the first place he was on he was on I definitely I checked that straight away and but but but yeah I mean
Speaker: I mean, it's unbelievable. It was a microcosm of Lukaku's career. When it matters in the big, let's call them global games, club and country, he bottles it. He bottles the moments, the big moments, the big chances. And we saw it in the World Cup versus Croatia for Belgium where he missed like three or four of these level chances.
Speaker: But we've seen it so many times in his past, and his record in the big matches, you can Google it, it's all there. His record in the big matches and the big teams, I mean, his record against the big six in the Premier League is terrible for what is supposed to be a top striker. But even in Serie A, even in his first belt when he was one of the best strikers in the world, his record against the big teams, it wasn't at the level that you would expect for a player of Lukaku's level.
Speaker: And you know, this is the biggest game of all Champions League final and and and I mean that you can't miss a chance like that Score those you need that takes it to extra time and and I don't know I mean you probably you probably favor in sir. And if it goes to extra time You know, I I felt I wanted a space at halftime with people and I said look I don't I
Speaker: I still thought, my feeling was that City were going to win this. It's like the similar kind of feeling without, you know, any other comparisons between them. But Uruguay against Italy, I felt Uruguay were in control. And that's how I felt about this game with City. I felt they were in control. Even though I think that's, I think, yeah, we'll come on to Italy on Twitter. I think that's different. I think it's Lee on Twitter. No, no, I'm not. As I said, I'm just talking about the feeling I had watching this game. Yeah, the feeling. Yeah. I felt City were more in control.
Speaker: than Inter. And I mean, so I can't, you know, of course I'm disappointed. And of course, but more than anything, I am proud. This was as an Interista, because I saw the last three, four weeks, ever since that, you know, to be at the San Siro, at the return leg, when Inter were the home team against Milan, and watch 70 ,000 sing that chant that is now forever etched in Inter folklore, that
Speaker: I've never seen the San Siro do that, everyone around the stadium sing like that, and to reach the Champions League final when nobody expected it, to see Interisti from all over the world meet up for the first time in Milan, in different spots all over, you know, in Milan, in Istanbul, throughout the season, to see everyone unite behind this team, it was, and this club, and feel pride again, because we've not had much, as Inter fans, much to be happy about, because, yes, you've won minor trophies,
Speaker: But ever since the Scoredetto, we weren't allowed to celebrate that because, you know, the way Kante left and Lukaku was sold and Hakimi was sold and all this nonsense that happened. This was this was a moment for Interfans to come together and to feel pride again. And it was it was and they did do exactly that. They made everyone proud.
Speaker: um and now inter united uh in a way that i've not seen them and you have a coach who wants to stay you have you know the finances look better than they have despite the new york times hit piece that we saw on a few days before the before the final where one of the authors said that they were going to do a similar critical piece about man city the day after instead they did a piece talking about ted lasso uh literally about ted lasso and manchester said which is like it's embarrassing
Speaker: But this is a hit piece. They're trolling you, Nimat. They're just trolling. Nice, embarrassing. And it is a hit piece. And I love how offended they get when they get called out, because if you're going to do a news piece, news clue is in the title, new. There was nothing new in that piece. It was just old and it was completely different. That's how they are, though. But listen, it was also it was not just that. If it was at least honestly, objectively, factually contextualized, but it wasn't.
Speaker: They just made these ridiculous comparisons between Inter being state -owned and Citi being state -owned, as if the Chinese government has put a euro in Inter. If anything, Suning stopped investing in Inter when the Chinese company invested in Suning to bail them out. But they didn't put that because that's not part of the agenda. So why let facts get in the way of a good agenda? And that's the New York Times generally, whether it's politics, finances, whatever it is, it's just par for the course with them.
Speaker: but you know it is what it is and then of course you had you know that idiot on the independent who couldn't you know got absolutely destroyed by anyone who could read above a third grade level um the day after but it was even they don't follow that any they don't follow any football outside of the english premier league the majority not the majority of the majority of the mainstream the majority of the mainstream english media don't watch football you can't you can't you can't analyze even if you're trying to
Speaker: Honestly, analyze teams, players from outside your own league if you don't watch them. It's just natural. No, but listen, even the teams that they do watch in the Premier League, they don't do journalism. They don't do anything critical. All they do is they ask, basically,
Speaker: They do acts, they do their own thing. They have a narrative. They have a narrative. It's about protecting the EPL, it's about making it look as good as possible because we all feed off of it. There's no critical questions, nothing. Just look at the people who own clubs in the Premier League. For the love of God, at least in other leagues, there is some sort of scrutiny.
Speaker: But no, it says it all and that's what the Premier League has become now. It's fine because everyone sees it. More and more people don't buy it. They lose more credibility. The same goes to UEFA as well. The champions, the biggest, the best team in Europe or the best team in the world, Manchester City, because they've won the Champions League. They are the best team in Europe and the world now.
Speaker: I mean, we've got what we said. They've got 115 financial charges over the course of almost a decade.
Speaker: Well, they were also convicted of them by UEFA, but then they appealed to CAS and lots of the charges were not... And we know UEFA are not going to do anything. We've debated it, we've discussed it on this podcast. I just wanted to finish that, that many of those charges were under statute of limitations. They weren't, UEFA couldn't do anything. And this just goes to show that this is how it is.
Speaker: You know, I'm a way for one to do something they could but they won't and and the thing is the Premier League are not going to do anything But this is what football has become now and this is why we supported a super league Which is you know, which has obviously taken a big blow this past week because you've entered so pulling out but you know, this is why we wanted a super league because this is what football has become now and the Premier League you want to compare me a league and by extension of that, you know
Speaker: football because the Premier League are so dominant financially. It's become the playground of states and criminals and there's no scrutiny. I've said it before, if Hitler and Stalin were alive today and they wanted to buy a Premier League football club, they would be able to do so. Maybe not Stalin because he's Russian, but some other dictators or pick any of the Hall of Fame dictators from the past, they would be able to buy a Premier League football club.
Speaker: And the Premier League would release a statement saying they have legal assurances that the dictator in question doesn't really control the football club. Yeah, that as well. Which is hilarious. And I was talking to a friend the other day, like football today has basically become like supporting the dictator with the least kills. Like I'm going to support this dictator because he's killed, you know, a few million less than this dictator. You know, that is basically what football at the highest level has become now.
Speaker: This is why I would think why I wanted Donald Trump to buy into to piss everybody off. It would be so much fun. Um, not because I'm aligned within politically, but because he's, um, he's in, he's crazy and he comes in there and he, he creates said lines and it would be absolutely hilarious to have him in the Serie A and, and to piss off the point, isn't it? That this is what football has become now that in a way it's not, it's become a so much of a joke that this all goes on and it's
Speaker: that it's not even serious anymore. You almost can't take football seriously now. You're thinking, well, dictators, criminals, states are allowed to come in and basically run football. And you're thinking, well, you know.
Speaker: Well, what do we do about it? We can't do anything about it. There's no accountability to it either. And what they do whenever they do impose any accountability, it's always on those who aren't as important for UEFA's money for their purse strings. And so they make examples out of these clubs to pretend to maintain the illusion that there is actually a law in place, that there's everything's on the up and up.
Speaker: And then you have these others who get away with everything with murder, essentially. And that's why the whole thing doesn't become serious. No one can take it seriously. And it loses complete validity. And it loses all forms of, you know, it just becomes a facade. And that's exactly what it is. And what the sad thing is is it's only going to get worse and worse. And this is kind of like this was with Italy having three teams in the final.
Speaker: You know, you can say the other two finals are not major, major competition. It's all about the Champions League. But certainly having an Italian team in the final of the Champions League. I almost felt like, and I hope I'm wrong, of course I hope I'm wrong. Yeah, of course we both do. I kind of felt like this was, you know, a last breath, a last chance to kind of let's win one before, you know, there would be no chance ever again, because the way that, you know, the financial, the financial gulf and it's only going to
Speaker: going to widen and widen even more than it already is. I just felt like this is a one -off. This wasn't, you know, when we had that cringe -worthy advert that Capello and Lucotani did of, you know, Seria, he's back. You know, it's not back. This is a one -off and, you know, I hope I'm wrong. Of course I hope I'm wrong.
Speaker: But I felt like this was an opportunity that Inter had to take and this was an opportunity that Serie A had to take because we're not going to get these opportunities really going forward again to win the Champions League, to have a dominant season where we win all the European competitions. You know, it's not going to happen, is it, Nimmer? No, I don't think so. As I've said all along, I think this is a one off. And yeah, you know, everything I've said, I think this is a
Speaker: This is a one -off and I'm afraid that we won't see it again for a long time, but it is what it is. If you look ahead to next season, first of all, starting with Inter, let's go through all the four Italian teams that are in the Champions League next season. Starting with Inter, realistically, do you see an Inter team or an Inter squad being stronger next season or weaker?
Speaker: I think there is a good chance that they could. InterSquad needs an overhaul in certain areas. This stopgap nonsense needs to stop. They need to have a serious project here. If that means rejuvenating and not fighting for the Serie A title and being okay for one or two seasons to do what Milan essentially did under Ricky Massar and Maldini, most Inter fans would be okay with that.
Speaker: But so I think, yes, there is the chance there for Inter to do something. There really is. Will they have to sacrifice a player? Well, that's the thing. They will have to do that because I think where they are now is they have two objectives. They no longer, I think, have to end on a net transfer gain this summer because of the fact that they have made up a lot of money that they didn't expect.
Speaker: to make. And so that covers a lot of potholes. This means essentially that their situation is one in, one out, or one out, one in, which means that they also have to reduce the wage bill, which means that you have to look at those who have the highest earners. So you're saying they can spend what they make? Is that basically what you're saying? Yeah, that's the expectation that everyone is, you know, that everyone talking to is like, that's the feeling.
Speaker: It's not going to be another plus 40, plus 20, plus 60, or some stupid shit like that. It's going to be plus minus zero. That's the requirement. But they have to lower the wage bill because no Italian team can maintain a wage bill of 130, 140 gross million euros gross per year. They just can't know what to do with that. They might have to sacrifice. I think they will. I think they have to. I mean, you have to remember.
Speaker: Look, Handanovic is leaving, Scrinyar is leaving, Galiadin is leaving, Dalbert is leaving. That creates, you know, that's a lot of money already there that is going out. Then you have players out on loan who they're looking to sell. Then you have, okay, Brozovic and Onana. And why I raised those two is because Onana came on a free transfer. Everything they sell him for is going to be a massive capital gains. So
Speaker: then you have, you know, that's why he's a candidate. But I think that would be a mistake. I really think that would be a mistake, because of the fact that, and even Guaridiola spoke about it after the game, that look, when you have Onana in you essentially, the way that he helps his passing,
Speaker: the way that he helped... You can't be pressed, yeah. You can't press him and his passing is fantastic. And his accuracy is fantastic. So I think, you know, I'd rather sell Brozovic than Onana. Not because I don't like Marcelo Brozovic, but because I look at how old he is. Brozovic was fantastic in the final. I thought him and her chair be winners. No, no, they were. Defensively, Marcelo Brozovic in games like this is just unbelievable.
Speaker: But again, we're talking about sacrificing here. And if the sacrifice is that you get rid of Marcelo Brozovic, who's on around 11 million gross per year, and you get around 30, 35 million euros for him, and you replace him with the same amount of money with Sergei Milinkovitsavich, who also will make lower
Speaker: in terms of his wages, that's a no -brainer for me. That is a no -brainer. If it also means that you can replace Roberto Galiadini with Stefano Sensi and say, look, Stefano, you've got one year left on your contract. We want you to be a rotation player for one year, and no one else is coming in for you, I have no problem with that. That makes the midfield department sorted. If Inter can offload Robin Gossens and get Carlos Agosto from Monza, that offers something that Inter don't have. That's an improvement.
Speaker: And if they get rid of Densel Dumfries, they're able to bring in Raul Belanova and also someone else for the right.
Speaker: If there was talk of Tejon Buchanan, younger player, with potential, with lower wages, and also you have the growth decree on his wages, plus you make a capital gains profit on Dunfries as well, that's a no -brainer. These things are the things I would like to see him to do, and then you go up front.
Speaker: Arrivederci, Edin Jeko. Arrivederci, Joachim Correa. Even though no one's going to buy him, send him out on loan. Because that was a dud. This is how it's going to be. It's going to be at Inter. Yeah, Lukaku is only if he's willing and if Chelsea are willing to take him except a non -paid loan, which I think Inter made clear. He's going back to Chelsea. If Chelsea want him to come back, which he wants to do, then they have to play ball on Inter's terms, which means
Speaker: may be a lower loan fee and where preponderance of his wages are paid by Chelsea. Intercon afford to pay those huge salaries to him anymore. And Lautaro gonna stay unless somebody pays like over 100 million euros for him, north of that.
Speaker: But I don't think anyone's going to do that. We'll see. And then you have, OK, who do you bring in and replace Jekyll with? Well, loaning Skamaka, I think, is an intelligent move. There's talk of Balogun and Retegi is coming in on lower, you know, loans and lower costs to replace Koechinkorea. That to me looks like a team, you know, that is already impressed or that is already better. And then you go to the defense and you're thinking, well,
Speaker: Okay, Scrinyar gone. Does D 'Ambrosio extend or does he stay? I'm not entirely certain that D 'Ambrosio extends. So you want to keep Acherbi, you're going to extend with Defry, you're going to extend with Bastoni, you're going to extend with Chalanoglou. This allows you to do that. Well, you still need to bring in someone to replace Milan Scrinyar, and I think that's where the big investment is going to be this summer. Whether it's Pavard, whether it's Cully Bali,
Speaker: I personally prefer Pavard over Coulibaly because I think Coulibaly is on a decline and I don't think he can play to the right of the back three. I think, you know, Inter needs someone to replace Scrimia and I think Pavard is more of a natural replacement and also he's younger. You know, again, rejuvenation, you can't just keep buying, again, not this the stop gap nonsense needs to stop.
Speaker: Well, if they get it right, they could potentially improve. We have to move on, though, because we've got so much else to talk about other than the Champions League final. But basically, to round up what I was going to say, I mean, in turn, it's going to be difficult to certainly match or better what they've done this season. Lazio, I think, if they get out of the group, they might lose Sergi Meninkevic -Savage as well. If they get out of the group, they would have done well.
Speaker: There's talk of Giorginio and Berardi that are close. I mean, that would be fantastic. If Giorginio came back to Italy and went to Lazio, if they were able to buy Domenico Berardi, I mean, that would be... Of course, but I think ultimately, Lazio, the best we can hope for is them getting out of the group. We're not expecting much of Lazio. And if you're putting money on now, you're saying they're probably going to go out in the group stage.
Speaker: Milan we've seen everything that's happened in Milan in the last week, so you can't really be that hopeful with Milan. Let's talk in August, that's all I'm going to say. And Napoli, of course, Napoli are the best -run club in Italy and they've had a magnificent season.
Speaker: Unfortunately, they're going to lose Kim Min -jae, they might lose Osseman. I think they will still be an excellent team and I still see them having no issue getting out of the group, but I think they're going to be weaker than this season. The way that things stand at the moment, we'll see how they're doing the transfer market, who becomes their new manager, who becomes their new sports and director if students only lose. I mean, there's a lot of change again at Napoli.
Speaker: and it's not easy to sustain that every single year. So much change and losing your best players, losing your coach every year. This is the problem that all Italian teams have. It's just not sustainable, even if you have one amazing standout season like Napoli have had. You cannot sustain that every year when you become a feeder club and a feeder league, which is what Serie A has become. So it's going to be very, very difficult. And I just feel like this was our opportunity, maybe like one of our last opportunities to do this before
Speaker: you know, the big bad Premier League completely took gobbles up everyone forever. You know, so that's that's it. Let's move on in some sad news. And so just before we started recording today, the news was confirmed that Sylvia Bellascone has died, aged 86 in Milan, and he had recently spent six weeks
Speaker: in hospital at the San Rafael hospital, undergoing treatment for a lung infection, which was linked to him being, he's just recently, he's been suffering with leukemia and he was readmitted into hospital very recently in the last week, I think or so. And yeah, unfortunately, yeah, sadly he has passed away aged 86. So,
Speaker: I mean, this is I mean, we're talking about an absolute huge figure, not just in Italian football and in the football history of Milan, but, you know, in.
Speaker: in the history of the country of Italy in the last decades. And if we talk about from a football point of view, I mean, he was the owner of Milan from 1986 to 2017. And you cannot underestimate the impact that he had on Milan. At the time of leaving Milan, selling Milan in 2017, he was the most successful president in the history of football.
Speaker: anywhere in the world. 28 trophies. Wasn't it 29? I don't know. I've seen some say 29. I counted 28, but I don't know if they're counting a little small trophy somewhere. But 28, 29. He was the most successful president in football history at the time. I'm not sure if Florentino Perez has overtaken him. I think Florentino has overtaken him. Yeah, he might have done since then. But at the time of leaving Milan in 2017, he was the most successful. And what he did at Milan was
Speaker: was unbelievable. And he bought a club that was on the verge of bankruptcy is a club that had been and we bought them in 1986, as I said, but they'd been in Serie B, the twice been relegated into Serie B earlier on in the 80s, one for the match, the Totoneiro match fixing scandal. But then the second time actually was on merit was actually for the field of play through being not being a very good football team. And so he turned them into the best team in Italy.
Speaker: within a couple of years. They won the 1988 Scudetto and he made them the best team in Europe in 1989 when they won the first European Cup of his tenure and he built
Speaker: in my opinion, and in many people's opinion, the best club football team that we've ever seen in football history, and his team that he had under Saki, Erico Saki, the three Dutchmen, Dan Basten, Rykard and Hullet. And then, you know, that amazing, all Italian defense, Maldini, Berezi, Tassotti, Costa Gerta. I mean, for me, that's the best club team we've ever seen. And they won two European Cups in a row in 89 and 90. And it took it took almost three decades, I think it's from Madrid for anyone else to win.
Speaker: two in a row. And under Belisconi, you know, they reached five finals in seven years during that spell. And in total, during his time in Milan, eight Champions League finals at Milan and winning five of them. And, you know, so, I mean, the success that he brought to Milan was absolutely unbelievable, wasn't it, Nima?
Speaker: Well, together on the football pitch, what he and Adriano Galliani and Braida did was truly, truly remarkable. We've got to keep it honest here and intellectually honest here, too. Before there were any... He was one of the first to...
Speaker: really set in motion the wheels of what became the modern moneyball game of financial doping when there wasn't such a thing, when it was okay, completely legal. There were no rules. There were no rules whatsoever. He was one of the first to set it in motion, and because of the fact that he used that success to launch his political career,
Speaker: becoming the prime minister of Italy for many, many years, becoming one of the longest serving prime ministers in Italian history. Many other people opened their eyes to understanding what sportswashing really was, and in football at least. I mean, of course, it existed before. But at this level, he was one of the instigators of that, and we should not be dishonest about that.
Speaker: No, and we shouldn't be dishonest about, you know, obviously, you don't want to speak ill of the dead and not when they do. I don't care if we don't want, you don't get in general, you don't want to speak of the dead in general. But, you know, he was mired in a lot of scandals, political scandals, sex scandals.
Speaker: Underage Bunga Bunga parties, very shady business. I mean, the secret societies, I mean, you name it. His connections to the Sicilian Cosa Nostra Mafia, I mean, just Google Vittorio Mangano, just Google Marcello de Lutri, who these people were. I mean,
Speaker: Vittorio Mangano was hired. This was officially hired as a gardener and a stableman. Yes, that's right. At Veltus College, Mila San Martino in Arcora. But he didn't do much gardening there.
Speaker: Oh, maybe certain types of gardening. Depending on how deep you want to dig, let's say. How far down the rabbit hole you want to go. No, but seriously, if you look into the people that
Speaker: that he had connections with. If you look at him being convicted, how he used the Italian legislature and the government to harm the government by making Italian law so much more bizarre that we see the results of it now with statute of limitations and using it for his own interests.
Speaker: is from a political point of view, and I don't even talk about the sex scandals because I know people love that stuff, but the other stuff I think that he did was far more
Speaker: was far more bad, if I'm perfectly honest, the fact that he made it okay to use the state to serve himself and enrich himself privately. He was one of the first in the West to do that, so openly, emblatantly, brazenly, and unashamed, like just in your face.
Speaker: But if we you know that he's his influence on Italian society are good for good and for bad You know television for example, I mean he was so far ahead of everyone in terms of you know modern TV Whether you like it or not the way that he used sex to sell TV I mean it's all you still see it today on Italian TV in Italian football TV. We still see it You know you see
Speaker: You have a talk show to talk about football and you generally have a very attractive young model or showgirl or whatever you call her that just basically sits there and looks nice. It sells. He was a very big influence on that side of things.
Speaker: Just but you know he does he did understood he understood how to be successful and He was incredibly successful. We want to look at the football side of things. Yes, you're absolutely right. He spent heavily I don't think it's I don't think it's comparable to say the level of spending that we see today in the Premier because back then there were there weren't rules in terms of financial fair play rules, but you know back then there were rules like there was a
Speaker: three EU players, for example. You could only have three foreigners. Well, actually at the start it was two. In the 1980s, it was two. Then they increased it to three in the late 80s. That means that you couldn't go out and just buy every single, yeah, hoard and have all the best players in the world. It was impossible. You could only have the three best foreigners. You could, okay, you could still go out and buy
Speaker: the best Italian players, but all the big Italian clubs had riches back then. Yes, Bellascone was the richest of them all, but they were all super rich. We saw the teams like Udenezer, Bayern, Zico, Napoli, Bayern, Maradona.
Speaker: Milan were the best team in the best league that there's ever been. It was still very impressive what he's done and a lot more impressive than... I don't think it's comparable to what football has become now with the Premier League. Because now there are... Look, the principle is the same, the details are different. That's fair enough, but we shouldn't be hypocritical about that.
Speaker: started pretty much, he laid the groundwork for, he wrote the playbook for how you use football in the modern context to further a political agenda. He was very big in the Champions League, the actual former Champions League. He understood that internationally meant that he was one of the first to understand that yes, okay, winning the Serie A is great, but when you do it on an international stage, when everyone is watching from all over the world, that's when it matters.
Speaker: And again, yeah, that's why he became such a big influencer and also on Milan being the most successful Italian team in Europe, because there was that feeling even in Italy at the time for a long time, probably up until Berlusconi, where many, many people in Italy actually would rather win Serie A than winning
Speaker: winning the Champions League European Cup as it was known then because it was that you know that was they considered that the bigger tournament and Bellascone kind of helped to change those attitudes and and you know obviously Milan success under him in the Champions League was just just unbelievable and they had so many great teams so many great teams I mean not just that Saki team but you know the Coppello team that
Speaker: that won the European Cup and reached three finals in a row. The Ancelotti team that reached three finals in five years. I mean, just name some of the players they had and some of the games, the legendary games, we thrashed in Real Madrid 5 -0 in the 1989 European Cup semi -final at San Siro. The 4 -0 over Stelbucrest in the final. The 4 -0 over Cruyff's dream team in the 94 final in Athens when everybody thought that Barcelona were going to destroy Milan in that final. Milan were decimated in defence.
Speaker: They had no Berezi or Costa -Curtis. They come on and they destroy them, 4 -0. And then all the way down to beating Man United, 3 -0 in 2007. The 6 -0 over Inter -Nima, which you probably will have forget. I mean, so many legendary games. I haven't forgotten that at all. I mean, we've got partly our revenge back on the Euro Darby, the Inter -1 now, because we lost a couple of Euro Darbys.
Speaker: against his Milan. And look, Milan were unbelievable then. There's no doubt about that. He built a structure. He understood the importance of media in sports, one of the first to do so in the world in football, in the footballing world. And that's why Milan have historically always been so good with the media and know how to get
Speaker: by, quote unquote, without paying positive coverage when you take care of like every player when you're when your president is the prime minister. Yes, but not just that. Even before that, this notion that understanding that if you buy a star from one country, that you have to have a relationship with the media. No, no, absolutely. I'm just saying it helps when you've got the influence of being a minister or be controlling Italian TV.
Speaker: Look, he said, well, not just that, he controlled 90 % of the Italian media at one point when he was in government. And also, let's remember that he used to say that when Milan wins on the weekend, parliamentary proceedings are far more easier on a Monday. This is who he was.
Speaker: And, you know, he was he embodied that and he lived it and he didn't, you know, and that's just, you know, again, it's a complex character. And some of the quotes he's come out with over the years as well. I mean, some of the stuff he's come up with some of the videos of him. I mean, just just Google.
Speaker: Sylvia Velasco in quotes. I mean, there's so many. I don't know what is my favourite at all. I think Paul Mampiano di Troia is out there, one of his last ones with Montza, the bus full of prostitutes. If they beat Juventus. They beat one of the big teams. They beat them twice, didn't they? I'll turn up to the dressing room with a bus full of prostitutes. It's just unbelievably
Speaker: It's just, yeah, in this time of extreme political correctness that we're seeing, I don't think that it's going to fix into this world very much some of the stuff that he's come out with. I remember when he said that the Chinese used to eat babies. Yeah, you have to apologize for that. Yeah. He said lots of racist Obama had had a good time. He said once I remember that. I mean, he's come up with so much stuff. Yeah. But yeah, from a footballing point of view,
Speaker: Yeah, one of the giants of football, not just Italian football, one of the giants of all football. So, yeah.
Speaker: Sylvia Belisconi, aged 86, passed away today. Okay, right. Very quickly, the play -out was played on, Serie A play -out was played on Sunday evening. It finished Spezia 1, Verona 3, so Spezia are relegated. It was a thrilling game, this game, absolutely thrilling. It was 3 -1 at half -time. But we've, midway through the second half,
Speaker: Spezia got a penalty and Verona got a red card and they had 23 minutes to basically get the game back, but they missed the penalty. Unzola missed the penalty and they had chance after chance after chance after that. The ball just wouldn't go in. And yeah, Spezia are down. So the three teams that are relegated are Sampdoria, Clemenese and Spezia. And the three promoted teams are Fiorez, Fozinone, Genoa and Callery, who scored with a 94th minute winner from Pavletti to return.
Speaker: to Serie A and Claudio Ranieri is the manager of Calgary. Three decades after being in Serie A with Calgary, he gets them up. I mean, that's an incredible story as well. So yeah, it was quite a thrilling night, wasn't it? No, it was. It was a thrilling game. And I think in the end, the right team got relegated. I think Helas Verona showed that as far as a team goes,
Speaker: they are a better side than Spezia. I thought they deservedly avoided relegation. And again, we want the Serie A to, with all the problems it's got, we need to have the popular sides up, quote unquote. And Verona has a bigger fan base than Spezia has ever had and never will have.
Speaker: And the game itself was just as good as it gets when we're talking relegation scraps in the Serie A. It was complete chaos and red cards and penalties and penalty misses. It was so, so, so entertaining. But with Spezia,
Speaker: out. I mean, we have to talk about the Salvatore Esposito, who the Esposito family had an absolute shocking night. Yeah, terrible night. You know, Sebastiano with Bari and Bari were literally two minutes away from Serie A, because the Serie A playoff final works like this, that if once they play each other in the final, the playoff teams, the team with a higher finish, if it ends in a draw, gets promoted. And in the 94th minute Pavoletti scores,
Speaker: and a packed San Nicolas. Fantastic atmosphere in that. They did a lap of honour before the game with the bus, I thought, as well. Yeah, and look, I think, of course, Francesco has posited the younger one as well.
Speaker: What's his name? Pio Esposito. Yeah, well, yeah, that's yeah, he was, he lost, of course. Yeah, and the 20 woke up. So no, look, I think Nicolaou and Zola Esposito, you know,
Speaker: There's going to be some... Yeah, they're good enough for Serie A teams, definitely. Unzola, it wasn't his night at all. He just didn't want to go in for him. But I do think that there's a player that certainly for a big Serie A team as a backup player, I think definitely could do a job, if not be a starter for one of the Europa League kind of standard teams. Certainly he's good enough to play for most Serie A teams in some capacity. And then I think the other two as well.
Speaker: And yeah, it's going to be interesting. Well, we have to give a shout out to Claudio Ranieri, who's now back in Serie A after bringing his Caliari, which he did like thousands of years ago almost, it feels like, when he brought them twice up to the Serie A. And now at the age of 71, if I'm not mistaken, he brings them back to the Serie A. And also when Caliari fans were mocking Sibari fans saying, oh, you're going to play in Serie B next year, he goes up to them and tells them to stop it.
Speaker: which just shows what a classy man this man has always been. He's always been a gentleman in his career and that was just beautiful to see.
Speaker: Yeah, it was. OK, just to finish off with the under 20 World Cup final, fourth final for Italy in the last fortnight or so and Italy lose it again. They lost one nil to Uruguay. Italy went into this final as favourites and they'd had a fantastic, fantastic tournament. They'd beaten Brazil, the pre tournament favourites in the first game.
Speaker: They beat England, the 2017 winners won it when they had Foden and everyone. They beat England 2 -1 and they played fantastically against Colombia who were a dangerous team in the quarterfinals and they beat
Speaker: Korea in the semi -finals, Pafundi scored a magnificent goal. They've had so many fantastic performers in this World Cup. The obvious ones are Baladansi, Pafundi and of course, Cesare Casade, who was named the best player of the tournament.
Speaker: top scorer of the tournament, eight goals, absolutely had an incredible tournament. These three have been great. There have been so many other really fantastic performers, Palati in midfield, central midfielder, Jovane, who has done really, really well in midfield and left back. But yeah, this final, I don't know what happened. They were just, I mean, I don't want to be too critical of youngsters.
Speaker: Italy were awful. They were absolutely awful from minute one to minute 90. They were totally outplayed, completely outplayed. I think they had one shot in the entire game. Italy, one shot on goal, none on target in the entire game. Uruguay completely outplayed them. They out fought them. They pressed them high. They couldn't even barely get out of their half Italy.
Speaker: I don't know what happened. I don't know if they were tired because three days ago they played the semi -final. The pitch was shocking. The pitch was not worthy of a World Cup final at any level. It wasn't even worthy of Sunday League football. It was that bad. It was like a potato hit. It was embarrassing. I'm sure that didn't help. It probably helped Uruguay a little bit more. Maybe the fact that
Speaker: You know, the game was in Argentina. It's only a short journey to watch the game. You know, Uruguay were basically playing a home game. They had a lot of their fans and say maybe that helped. I just I don't know what happened. It looked honestly, it looked like they bottled it. It looked like pressure got to them completely. I don't know. Maybe I'm not giving enough credit to Uruguay. They had some really interesting players. No, no, they did. But I think Uruguay showed that they they deservedly won this game. I thought they were better than Italy throughout.
Speaker: this game and even the Italy coach after the game said that from a physical point of view Uruguay were in a much better condition than we were. We were tired. He thanked all the youngsters saying it's been a fantastic tournament. Nobody expected us to get to this point or play at this level.
Speaker: Um, and I agree with them. I just didn't think Italy were, they were, they were just not ever in the fun. They were just scrapping on and hanging on and they were tired and they were sluggish. And now I feel, I feel you go to why one deservedly credits to them. Italy had zero shots on goal. This game, like let's just basically put it out, you know, they, the Italy were basically hanging on for dear life, um, throughout this game. And there was nothing there. And I think that.
Speaker: For me, I'm very positively surprised. I did not expect Italy to do this well. I love that goalkeeper they've got. I think he's the only one in the final that performed. He made some miracle save. He was so good. No, but not just this tournament as well. I thought he was without a doubt the best goalkeeper in this tournament. Uruguay had the best defence and it was six out of seven clean sheets. They only saved it in one game. Yeah.
Speaker: So they were outstanding. But in terms of goalkeepers and for the saves he made, I think the Italy kid was just outstanding. And as for the players, I know Casadei was announced the best player of the tournament. For me, Bal Dansi was better.
Speaker: this tournament. I thought he was better. I think Kasade showed still why there's a difference between youth and senior level football. There is a quality player there, of course. If you become the top goal scorer as a mid from a midfield position, that's a fantastic quality to have. And that's something that is his absolute strength. But there is still all of them kind of have improvement to do. But for me, Alain Mathurro and
Speaker: Bal Dansi showed that they placed first team football, they placed senior team football. I thought they were fantastic, those two, over through this tournament and played with a maturity that you don't really see at this level. I think Casa Dei was a magnificent tournament.
Speaker: I do wonder how much of it is down to the fact that physically this guy is beast already. I think that's definitely played a role. I mean it was at Reading last season, it was a first team player at Reading in the Championship and let's not forget the Championship is a very high level. If we're talking about best leagues in Europe, it's top 10 in Europe. There's a lot of quality in the English Championship.
Speaker: So, you know, he's already been playing first -team football, but I do think the physical advantage that he had in a lot of plays certainly played a role. But one thing we can say about Passaday is he's got an incredible shot. He's fantastic in the air, but I think his best attribute is something that can't be taught. You cannot teach people this. His understanding of making
Speaker: relate runs into the box, getting in the right areas, and then finishing. He's a fantastic finisher as well. I think he's very similar to Frank Lampard, definitely. I know he's been compared to him, but he's got all the attributes that Frank Lampard had, he's got. So we'll see how far he can go. I do think that, yeah, absolutely. On a technical level, let's see. Let's see how he does, because I think maybe he's
Speaker: his short game you can see that there needs to be some improvement there in the short game and the advantage is physically that he's had over youth players he won't have over over over men but yeah magnificent tournament for him and I think yeah ultimately youth football is not so much about winning it's about developing good you know quality players and Italy had some really really you know very very
Speaker: Italy have such a bad record in finals, certainly over recent years, both the clubs and the national team. I was doing a little bit of an adding up before and since 2010 when Inter lost one of the Champions League finals in club football.
Speaker: promise and talents that have emerged in this tournament.
Speaker: the major European club tournaments. I think, if I didn't count wrongly, that Italy, Serie A have been to nine finals and only won two of them. And then obviously international level as well with the youth tournament. We've lost quite a few finals as well. But even if you go further back, I believe that Serie A, no one has lost more finals than Serie A clubs.
Speaker: I don't know what it is. There just seems to be like we always seem to do well in semi -finals. We always seem to perform well in semi -finals, but when it gets to the finals, I don't know. We don't seem to win enough finals. I don't know if it's just a coincidence over the years, but certainly in recent years, maybe it's more down to the quality that Serie A and Italian football has gone down a bit. But I don't know what it is. It's become a little bit of a mental issue now, but we don't win enough finals. We lose too many finals.
Speaker: That has been, I guess, in May or the last month, that has been the story of Italian football in the last few weeks, isn't it? Just losing finals.
Speaker: Yes, but I mean, this follows the summer of 2021 when Italy won everything that they could win from athletics to Eurovision to the Euros to everything else. And so this this is, you know, this comes. Right. But generally speaking, like this, you know, I feel somehow that it's it's I think it's
Speaker: I'm not too surprised just yet. I think somehow this kind of is an accurate description of where Italian football is. It's close, there's lots of exciting things happening, but they're not quite there yet.
Speaker: And I think that's a good place to be because Italians are the best in the world at congratulating each other when they win and pat each other on the back. And the lasting Italian football needs is more patting of themselves on the back. They need to improve and they need to do good. So I think in the long run, this is good for Italian football that they finished so close on all fronts. It means work harder. Your Calcio is not back.
Speaker: as they were that ridiculous commercial they were pushing. No, culture is not back in any shape, size or form. Sounded like Arnold Schwarzenegger there. They need to understand that. Their culture is not back. And I think it's good for Italy to go a little bit hungry than being a little bit overfed. And Italian football needs to work hard. And I hope that they do.
Speaker: Yeah, I like that. Okay, finish off with Bad Joe and Prim Face of the Week.
Speaker: Badgeo, who you got? I've got one. Go for it, then. I'm going for you. I'm going for your talks. I'm going for your talks for interviews. Stop. But in three years of the Italian football podcast, Nimmer is the Badgeo of the week for the first time and probably the last time. Hopefully for the last time. I've never given him credit ever again. So, yeah, please, everybody listen to Nimmer's interview. Was it Friday? You do this, or was it Thursday evening? It was. I can't remember. I think it might be Thursday evening, but you shared it with me on Friday or I listened to it on Friday.
Speaker: Yeah, I didn't even it wasn't like they they just dropped me a message and say, hey, would you like to come on? We wanted to preview the final. And I was like, yeah, sure. When tonight? Yeah. OK, cool. And if you are in like a couple of hours and I said fine. And so I went on there and and yeah, they they you know, this is the funny part. He asked he wasn't craft actually asked me a question. He said if I was an Interfan living in the in the UK and consuming English media, I would be a bit offended with how Intermelano portrayed.
Speaker: which to me is a very honest characterization of facts and how things are and I just reply to that honestly and factually and then somebody who I'd never heard of until you explained who he was lost his like was completely debilitated he was completely like triggered as if he was just rude and he come across as somebody that that was a that's a bully which is what I've heard from people I've spoken to an industry that he's a bully and
Speaker: He picked on the wrong person. He did bark off the wrong person. Yeah, we barked off the wrong tree. And so I was like, and then I know this isn't my first rodeo. I've had to debate with people like this, not just in football, but in politics and other areas. So I know what they tried. I know their MO. I know how they love to turn everything into sideshows and red herrings, and I don't let them.
Speaker: I stay on point. I never mentioned English fans because I would never generalise people based on nationality. That's just not who I am. I was talking about certain members of the English mainstream media, and that is just an objective fact. That's not even an opinion. They have this attitude, and everybody on Earth knows it, except for them.
Speaker: or except for Martin Samuel, in this case, who pretends that it's absolutely rubbish. And, you know, talk with a cock. Talk with a cockney accent to make himself more, you know, working class and approachable when in fact he's anything but. But, you know, this is what they do. It's, you know, it's the oldest trick in the book and I just don't, I'm too, again, this is my first rodeo. So even if I wasn't prepared for that kind of overreaction and emotional meltdown,
Speaker: I was, it wasn't difficult for me to just basically dismantle what he had to say because it was so nonsensical. I love it when you were like, really, really, really. I mean, why would I get upset? I mean, when you're dealing with a flat earther, which essentially that is denying facts, objective, empirical facts that everyone knows to be true, then you just got to be like, okay, right.
Speaker: and then just continue hammering home your point with facts. That's what I did. It was weird. It was a weird interaction. I thought it was a bit sad because I really actually, the other two, Darren Lewis is an absolute gentleman.
Speaker: who works among others for CNN in the mirror. He is an absolute class gentleman who's always so respectful and polite, and Hugh is a nice guy as well whenever I've had to deal with him. They were lovely people, and they are lovely people, very professional.
Speaker: But this guy just got really triggered, and I thought it was funny. It was very, very, very funny. But yeah, I didn't even share it. This is the funny thing. I was like, oh, that was just weird and awkward. So I went about my day and then I sent it to you. I was like, yeah, I was wondering if you want to listen to it. And then you clicked it up.
Speaker: made it go viral. Yeah, it was it was very, very funny. Yeah, everybody loved it. Everyone loved it. So many people said, especially kind of like Italian football fans living in in in England or in English speaking countries said, you just reflected everything that I feel basically that was the overwhelming. But it was so but the way that it was delivered, I mean, like, you were just like, bang straight in there. You don't miss about
Speaker: You don't miss that. Your opener was brilliant, and then at the end, your ending was just like mic drop at the end. I won't tell everyone, please listen to the ending, the way that Nimmer finishes the interview. It's magnificent. You're my badger in a week. Thanks for that. No, I don't know. Do you have a prim face? Yes, I do. I guess mine, Samuel. Well, not just him, but he can't even be that because Steve Nicole on ESPN,
Speaker: What do you say now? Well, the usual nonsense about how he's saying that in a pre -match he said, you know, Inter wasn't going to get any more 30 % of the possession, and then afterwards the game just changes tune, saying, oh, it was City who were bad, Inter did nothing special, and just kept banging on and, you know,
Speaker: shitting on Inter, which all of them do, because they have no respect. They don't have any respect for anything and anyone. And it's okay because everybody sees through it. And this is the kind of nonsense that I was referring to. I don't think it comes from a bad place with Niko. I think he's just quite simple, isn't he? Obviously, he doesn't watch any football. You can tell he doesn't watch any football other than maybe a few Premier League games. Liverpool, he's a former Liverpool player.
Speaker: He doesn't really watch much football and he doesn't really care, which you get with a lot of pundits. They don't care about watching the football. Burleigh, you can tell, he genuinely hates Italian football. You can see it. He has so much hate in him.
Speaker: And so, you know, it's just what it is, what it is, isn't it? They are a laughing joke, and they really are a global laughing joke with everyone who's not in the bubble. And that's why I thought it was funny. For me, it was like, you know, it's nice to inject a bit of dose of reality into the bubble every now and again, simply because they are so used to hearing this
Speaker: to living in an echo chamber, that whenever somebody actually injects a bit of reality into their little bubble, they don't know how to act. They just lose their shit and they just, it's like the world is collapsing. It's like, it's so, and that is so entertaining.
Speaker: What is, yeah, I always find it incredible how these kind of people, especially in the mainstream media, get so offended. I do. When they're ideologically challenged, when they've got this ideological view of the world about everything, not just in football, and obviously in football, it is the Premier League as the best in the world, that, you know, we're not like this, you know, like what Mike and Samuel were saying, you know, but anything, like they're ideological, have an ideological view. And if you just happen to have a view that is not the same as their,
Speaker: You know they get so triggered by it as if like it's the end of the world. It's just like
Speaker: They have no self -awareness. I just have a different view to you. What is the big deal? They have no self -awareness whatsoever. And they're so arrogant and up their own butts that whenever you inject just a tiny bit of reality and another perspective based on actual reality, they don't know how to react. They literally just panic. And it's incredibly entertaining.
Speaker: And it's funny, but it is what it is. It was just one of those things. I remember after Interwent 3, I put out that tweet predicting all the things that was going to be said. Everything happened. Once you know the narrative, once you know the result, you know what the game is going to be. You already know. Once you've followed them for so long, how they behave, everything is the same. You know exactly what's going to come before and what's going to come after.
Speaker: We knew after the final they were going to say that it was because Manchester City played badly. That's exactly what happened. Manchester City did play badly, but it was also because Inter were outstanding tactically.
Speaker: But I mean, they don't understand that these nuances, but that's not what they, you know, they work thereafter clicks and hits and spreads and the stoop, you know, turning the night, you know, it's as if anything that has some traits of intellectual discussion and discourse is like kryptonite to these people. It's like it literally is like that Chris Rock thing about kryptonite.
Speaker: to put your money in your books because knowledge is kryptonite. That's how it is to these people. Knowledge, facts, in any form of intellectual discourse is kryptonite to these people. I'm being proud of it as well. I'm proud of those stupidities. I'm proud to be ignorant. Proud to be dumb, proud to be stupid, proud to be simple and a simple ton. It's fun, but we go again. We go again.
Speaker: Yeah, I sure do. OK, right, let's leave it at that and we will be back on Tuesday for the Q &A, Thursday for our first transfer show of the summer. And yes, like I said before, we will be doing this throughout the summer, but we also have a lot of international football coming up, the under 21 euro starting next week and the Nations League coming up this week as well. Italy are playing against Spain in the semifinal, which I believe
Speaker: Is it on Wednesday? Is it Wednesday this week? Let me just double check that before we say goodbye. Because they're in the semis of the Nations League. I believe the inter -players are going to join up next on Thursday, this Thursday. Yeah. It's Thursday evening, Spain versus Italy. And I think it's in the Netherlands. Yes, it's in the Netherlands.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Right. Let's leave it at that. Have a good week, everyone. We will see you next time. Ciao ciao.
