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Heritage Traineeships with Phoenix Archer - Episode 16 - Modern Myth
741 Plays4 years ago
It is always important to be open to hearing both when things go well and also when there are serious issues. In the UK, there is a feeling that systemic racism is either overemphasised or poses no real threat. However this ignorance leads to those who experience racism having to be suffer and work harder in order to have a normal life or employment.
In this conversation I am speaking to Phoenix Archer who gained a certification in Conservation with Historic Environment Scotland, a traineeship facilitated by the Next Step Initiative. Next Step provide opportunities for BAME individuals for traineeships and training in Scotland.
Phoenix tells me about her experiences at HES, based at the Engine Shed in Stirling, Scotland. She tells me about the difficulties of moving to a new city, living in a hostel before find accommodation as well as experiencing harassment at work. Despite writing letters to her managers, and making it known that she felt uncomfortable, it all seemed to fall on deaf ears.
Phoenix works for several organisations, including St Machar's Cathedral in Aberdeen, Ahead of the Game - Application and CV services and new in October BIPOC and them some, which seeks to highlight BIPOC representation in arts and Media.
https://www.facebook.com/AOTGTheReal/
https://www.facebook.com/ProgressinDialogue/
https://www.stmachar.com/education_outreach.htm
https://www.facebook.com/BIPOC-and-then-some-115065223670327
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
Introducing Phoenix Archer
00:00:28
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Modern Myth podcast with me, your host Tristan, the anarchiologist. Today I have a wonderful guest, that's Phoenix Archer, who recently completed the technical conservation traineeship with Historic Environment Scotland in partnership with Next Step Initiative. Phoenix was based in Stirling at the engine shed.
Journey into Conservation
00:00:52
Speaker
which is kind of funny because we're just talking in the pre-show there that we actually, I passed that on my way to work and it's kind of funny that we must have passed like ships in the night.
00:01:03
Speaker
course I know Phoenix from actually University of all things so it's it's definitely a small world but this is I thank you very much for coming to speak to me and I really really want to know more about what it was like to do this traineeship so can you tell me a bit more about how did how did you get involved in the first place what happened let me see so
00:01:30
Speaker
a very long time ago I decided to have a dream that I wanted to work in museums and it wasn't going exactly according to plan and something said kind of try kind of sectors adjacent to the museum world the builders the donors the you know the stonemasons are hot well I get to get my hands dirty try something new why not
Finding the Traineeship
00:01:55
Speaker
And then the opportunity arose when I was volunteering in Aberdeen and it was on the Spotty Tributium Forum on Facebook and I saw it, there was this post for trainees and I thought, look, as much as I love me some volunteering, I got bills to pay. I was like, okay, let's just do this. I thought, okay, let me do some research about it.
00:02:21
Speaker
and it was a programme at Next Step Initiative in Glasgow. So they're an organisation that help different ethnic minorities with whether it's getting
00:02:35
Speaker
work skills, interview ready. It's people that have just come over from Africa and helping them with their visas, helping them kind of learn the UK system when it comes to the big job sector because it's very different.
00:02:51
Speaker
So giving them the right skills and also there's an element of working with the environment, helping people to be more environmentally friendly with light bulbs and where they shop and they just be a bit more green in how they work with the earth and the day to day lives.
00:03:10
Speaker
So I thought, okay, this seems to be a great organization. This is great, cool. I like this, I like this. And it's an organization with a large amount of African individuals there. So, okay, it is also good. Coming from York to, all the way to Scotland, lacking melanin here in Scotland.
Challenging Interview Experience
00:03:29
Speaker
So I thought, great. Right. I'm going to feel comfortable. Nobody's not going to make any, you know, make me feel uncomfortable too much. This is going to be cool.
00:03:39
Speaker
So I looked at the advert, I applied a simple process, like most applications, you know, you're sending your CV, you tell them, you know, your e-skills, what you're good at, your credentials, like your previous employment, your education and things like that. And then a few weeks later, they got back in touch with me and they said, we want you for an interview.
Relocation to Stirling
00:04:05
Speaker
Now, little did I know,
00:04:10
Speaker
Because I think this computer I used to fill in the application was a completely different system that they had used. So mine, I think I was using a library at the time. I can have a laptop on the point. So I was using the Aberdeen Library, Central Library computers, and they were a bit more up to date. So certain things are missing. Like the ticks, you don't like me say what age you are, like the tick for that age range was missing. I had no idea all this was going on. So I guess in the interview,
00:04:40
Speaker
I got all the way to Glasgow, that's where the interview was, and it was a bad day, lots of rain, lots of craziness going on. I didn't know where this place was, I had an idea, you know, you're looking at a map going, it's just down the road, that's fine, no it's not.
00:04:58
Speaker
So eventually got there, got soaked, I was late. I hate being late. interviews is terrible. So I got there late. I am like a drowned rat. I got a raincoat and the raincoat failed me. I hate these raincoats. So I got there and I was like, I'm so sorry, I'm late. But driver put me off in the wrong place and he said it was over this bridge and it was actually before the bridge is lying. I hate his goats.
00:05:26
Speaker
Um, so I got in there like, it's fine, it's fine. So they asked me, yeah, just calm down. It's okay. It's fine. And what I had to do for the interview was just tell them about myself. Why do I want to be accepted, um, as an, onto the Christmas for the interview, I mean, for the trainee trip. And I also had to kind of do a presentation, something to do with my culture, just any kind of presentation for three minutes. Now I've done presentations before.
00:05:54
Speaker
not know, you kind of teach a little bit at university presentations. I cannot be good, but depending on what's going on, I did think I was going to be terrible.
Beginning of the Traineeship
00:06:05
Speaker
I was like a drowned rat. I was completely lit. And I decided to do a presentation on
00:06:13
Speaker
Chemibald, a kind of spiritual object in the Arabian Isles. And I did it specifically for Jamaica Gus, where a lot of my heritage from.
00:06:25
Speaker
And so I did that and I had a backbone of what I wanted to say. So like the history and the use and the archaeological finds and things like that. It was okay. I did it under three minutes and I was engaging. I worked on my body language, even though I was shivering from being drowned with all the lovely Glasgow rain. And it was fine. And the typical
00:06:53
Speaker
you know, interview questions at the end, they ask, oh, do you have anything you would like to, you know, ask us? So usually in previous interviews in the past, I would say, do I get a pension? Do I need a uniform? Do I, do I need like a work badge? What's, what's it like? Um, and then I remembered a while ago, just off the top of my head, sometimes what you read is just stay in your brain.
00:07:21
Speaker
But the question popped into my head and it said, ask them about the ethos of the company. At that point, I didn't know much about HES. So I thought, well, this would be a great way. There's only so much you can get of a feeling from a website. At that point, I didn't know anybody that worked for HES. And at that point, I was wanting to add my blessing in.
00:07:51
Speaker
Glasgow Australian Leads I know that but I didn't know Sterling so I chose Glasgow or Edinburgh so they said you know maybe we want you for Sterling instead I thought okay well can you tell me more about the ethos of the company and they said yeah when it comes to birthdays we all like but
00:08:14
Speaker
know what, they sound like a really great company. Little did I know. Yes. So at that time I was like, okay,
Housing Struggles in Stirling
00:08:25
Speaker
go, I'll seem nice. You know, I was a novice, I was fresh. I was like, let's do this.
00:08:33
Speaker
And so I said, thank you. They seemed happy. I think I did the best that I could. It might be late and transport issues and the wonderful rain. Even as I left the building, I got lost again. Yeah. Yeah. But then I eventually found my way and I got home and I got the coach back and on the way back, I got a phone call. And it was for the manager at the time.
00:09:00
Speaker
because there was a few managers, so there was one of a few managers there, and she called me, she said, hi, is this Phoenix? I said, yes, hello. I'm tired. I was trying to get back to Aberdeen. I'm just so, and I smell fun. I smell like wet dog. I was just like, who is this car lady? What is going on? He's like, hi. So I'm one of the managers for the interview that you just did. I was like, oh, hi. So I was expecting to tell me it was rubbish or hope you got home safe or something.
00:09:29
Speaker
but we placed it at Stirling. I was like, okay, thank you. I was so normal. I couldn't really hear that much, you know, very well. And also I was just thinking, Oh God, I need to sleep. Oh my God, what a day. I was like, I was just very normal. It was kind of an awful pile of people. I just, just be good. You know, just smile. It's like, did you hear me? I was like, yes, thank you. All right. So send me more details soon. You know, when you get home and I've got a rest, yes, no problem. Okay. Bye.
00:10:00
Speaker
call ended. It clicked in my brain. You know, they want you to shut up. You know, they want me to shut up. Oh my god, they want me. Oh my god. That means I'm looking from Aberdeen, Stirling. Oh my god. I know nothing more sterling apart from they have a castle. What the hell am I going to do? And that's when things got interesting.
00:10:25
Speaker
So that's how excited. Yeah. So I, I, that's, I mean, that does sound really, really good. Um, I, I must say I've been at, um, I've been to a couple of interviews where I've been late, lost and all that. And you know, it just adds the extra pressure on, doesn't it? And especially when you're traveling down from Aberdeen, um, to Sterling, which I'm pretty sure is must be like a two and a half hours, three hours on the train. Yes. Two, two and a half hours on a good day.
00:10:54
Speaker
yeah but you must have made a decent impression if on the same day on your journey back they wanted you so what you've kind of hinted at something not really something going awry at some point so what happened after that so in the background i should tell you a bit of background here sure sure
00:11:21
Speaker
At that point, I just started a new relationship. Okay. Months before, and I was applying for so many jobs in and around Aberdeen, I didn't get it. So I had to break it to my boyfriend at that time. Yo, I'm off to Stirling. Look,
Cultural Isolation and Adaptation
00:11:40
Speaker
look, the journey trips for a year. I'll be back. And it's one of those kind of things you see in films. Our relationship is strong. We can handle it.
00:11:52
Speaker
Again, that's something I'll go to later on. I thought, you know what? It's just for a year. Come on now. If you really care and we only love each other, we got this. I had no car. So I was like, okay. Or anything I need, any clothes or what have you, I'm just going to have to bring it in a suitcase and my rucksack and maybe a hold-up. Yeah. I did that via train. Half of it was via train and half of it was via the coach.
00:12:21
Speaker
And then I was like, I know nobody in Stirling. There was no kind of support to say, oh, go in this direction, go in that direction. I was like, okay, the places in Aberdeen I would use maybe Gumtree or from word of mouth or what do you call those kind of Facebook groups where they say, oh, there's student accommodation available. I thought, well, I'm a tree, technically I'm a student. So I looked for that. It was hardly anything in Stirling.
00:12:46
Speaker
And then when I eventually did get approved, one or two of the groups that, you know, that said, yeah, come into this group, we'll tell you about some houses that are available. They'd already been taken up because I started my training trip in April. So all of this, you know, the student population at that time, they were already set, they were already in their accommodation. And so there wasn't much left of slim pickings, basically. So I had to go into the Sterling host, hostel.
00:13:16
Speaker
that was fun so
Microaggressions at Work
00:13:20
Speaker
i did that and it was difficult you know
00:13:24
Speaker
At that point, I had lived with students in the past, fellow students, but was complete strangers, different age ranges. I did at that point ask for just a single female dorm. That didn't happen. So that was interesting. And I got used to the nightlife in Stirling very quickly with a hostel. I don't know if you're aware, but the hostel is right in the city center. Right. Right. Yeah. And it was
00:13:53
Speaker
It's so noisy. I love it because you just walk out the door and there's food and cafe restaurants and everything everywhere. Brilliant for that. Oh, but those nightclubs come alive as soon as the sun goes down. So the combination was terrible.
00:14:13
Speaker
Getting all my stuff, I was so terrified to go to the office and just leave my stuff in the hospital. I just locked it up as I could do. So I did use parking key. At that point, I was still looking for somewhere to stay. I thought, I can't be staying in this hospital all the way through. So I started training each year. I met my supervisors. Everybody's like, hey, congratulations. We're so happy to have you. And then they told me, it's just you.
00:14:43
Speaker
everywhere else, all the other trainees that got picked, they had a partner in a sense, you know, someone else that was on the traineeship with them, but they might be doing something slightly different, but they were placed in the same area, or the same building. And it was just me. And I thought,
Workplace Bias and Diversity Challenges
00:15:00
Speaker
okay, fine. I don't mind being alone. I like my own company too. It's all right. I mean, I used to go exploring.
00:15:07
Speaker
So I was in Stirling, you know, based at the engine shed. I had the opportunity to work with stonemasons and join us. So I wasn't always at the engine shed, it was my base, but I could go out to different depots and different locations and work on different buildings. And it was great. It was great for the fact that it wasn't just an office space role.
00:15:32
Speaker
I got to work in different groups. So I got to work with the maintenance unit, the maintenance care unit, that's kind of based in and around Sterling. So that involves stone masons and joiners and electricians and what have you. And then I also got a chance to work with collection management unit. They're mainly based in Edinburgh. There was a lot of emails back and forth, understanding how research exhibitions, how they use the archives for hairs, you know,
00:16:01
Speaker
um, historic environment scholar, if anybody doesn't know. Um, and it was great. The fact that I get to work with different teams, brilliant aspect. I loved, loved, loved, loved. But then I noticed when I was in the office, um,
00:16:26
Speaker
I was fully aware I was the only black person there. It wasn't like, you know, I didn't notice. Would it be nice if they'd let me know? But looking back now, I don't think it would have changed. I wouldn't have suddenly magically changed my behaviour or what I wore, how I reacted, how I behaved. It would just be nice for a bit of a heads up, you know? That's all.
00:16:54
Speaker
And then I met some people there and they were nice. I don't know what to know about, you know, when you work at, you know, starting a new office, they're all like, Oh, new person, who are you? What do you do? It's like funny questions. You're like, Okay, cool. I'm just here to work. That's nice. But you're being over the top. And you know, like people when they have new babies, everybody's like, Oh, cool, cool, cool, new baby.
00:17:13
Speaker
I was like, calm down. I know you're excited. Calm down. I'm more of a gradual into no people kind of person. I'm not more of a Oh my god, how am I sleeping? Is everything about me? And then obviously, because of my ethnicity, I physically look different as well. Some of the questions were a bit
00:17:34
Speaker
too personal, like where you're from, where you're really from and who are you, who really are you, I'm like oh my god. So I just said I'm from Yorkshire, that's where I was born and raised and you know, yes I am Black British but I am from Yorkshire and that's my baby, that's my home, you know. So
00:17:53
Speaker
is probably different for other people, like people born in Africa, and then they came, you know, over or they were born in the Caribbean, and then and then they came over, I was born in the UK, you know, African Caribbean parents, and grandparents from Jamaica. So to me, I'm like, kind of one and a half kind of second age generation. And
00:18:20
Speaker
And it got worse. That's the best way I can describe it. I'll do my best not to mention names. I'm the same manager as the supervisor at the time because people's jobs may change, titles may change, you know, with everything that's going on in the world, who knows if they're still going to be there anymore. And me talking right now is not for me to necessarily get people in trouble per se, but it's to
00:18:43
Speaker
highlight biases, perhaps, and for people to kind of reflect and say, I'm sorry, or make the actors speak louder than their words. Yeah, just to give people an idea that, you know, this, this is the environment that that was there.
Support and Cultural Misunderstandings
00:19:01
Speaker
And that this kind of environment can appear in other places as well.
00:19:06
Speaker
I understand what you mean. It's about that people might not, because they don't get asked these questions, for example, they're not aware that these questions are a bit weird.
00:19:19
Speaker
I feel like it sounds like people, I think I'm one of those excitable people who loves meeting new people. I would have been that annoying person. But hopefully I would have had the money to actually realize and accept that first answer that you gave. I think this is the thing is that people
00:19:41
Speaker
people usually, they let go. They're kind of like, I think a lot of people don't understand why it's a problem. You know, I think people are, I mean, it doesn't mean anything that the intent, you know, the intent is, you know, it doesn't take away the effect. But I think if people had more of a sight on this, then I think it may take a few minutes to kind of think before
00:20:10
Speaker
they said something, you know? But what we'll do is we'll take a break and after the break we will return to this topic.
00:20:21
Speaker
And now we're back. So you're listening to Modern Myth and I'm sitting down here with Phoenix talking about her experiences as a part of the traineeship over at Historic Environments Scotland. Now we were just, well Phoenix was just telling me about the kind of environment that she found herself in when she went to an office and she was the only black person there.
00:20:47
Speaker
Now, people have been asking, people obviously were, people are obviously asking questions about a new person, but in Fiends' case, they were probing even further and further, almost not believing that she came from where she said she was. So I think those are quite obvious questions. Were there any really like, was it just this kind of like disbelief or was there other situations where you just felt uncomfortable?
00:21:18
Speaker
So, um, luckily, later on, um, Next Step Initiative, uh, was able to find another trainee at the engine shed, so that came around, what, May, June time? That was great. And he's from Glasgow, uh, he came from Malawi, and then, you know, first stint in the UK, and he's like, got his traineeship, and he's there at the engine shed, and he's like, woohoo! That was a blessing. I wasn't alone.
00:21:48
Speaker
I wasn't alone and I'm pretty cool within myself, being confident in myself. When you're the only one that looks like you, that you can only refer to. This is going to sound so weird.
00:22:06
Speaker
You know, when you're coming to the office, you're like, hey, how was your weekend? Or how was your day? What did you do last night? And some people are saying, I was with kids. I was with my husband. I was with my wife. And other people will probably say that maybe a bit longer. I was studying. I was with my mum and things like that. And it was just me. I had moved everything to come sterling. No mummy, no daddy, no partner, no kids at that point, nothing. And I couldn't relate. I tried to.
00:22:34
Speaker
So if someone said I had a meal with my partner, I was like, oh, what kind of food did you have? You know, was it nice? I think I'm quite good with food and I talk about food to the people. I'm a bit of a foodie. So I would try to fit in really hard. I tried so hard. I even changed. Like the way I dressed, my hairstyles changed just to fit in because I felt so alone. And then when I got a new trainee, I felt better.
00:23:03
Speaker
And then I was meeting other trainees but were owned by HES, whereas my trainee was owned by Next Step Initiative. So it was nice people around about my age range. So a lot of them still were living with them on my dad, but we had slightly similar interests. And so it was only me and the other trainee from Next Step Initiative that were already black people there again. No problem. We were all getting along, you know.
00:23:32
Speaker
But it's like a bit like a bandage. You think I'm not alone. Everything's fine. You know, we can share and I did sometimes open up to do the training. I did. It's a little bit different. Some people might think, well, what's the difference between the Caribbean and Africa? Well, Africa is a continent number one. And there's different countries in Africa and they're all different traditions and customs. And you know,
00:24:01
Speaker
it's just a different experience. So Jamaican background Caribbean, you know, kind of heritage, we relate on some things, you know, we're a bit closer as it were, but we're not the same. So I couldn't really talk about our home or because his wife, I used to tease him a little bit about as he said, Oh, I wish I could have a wife, his wife would bring him, make him lunch and bring it to work with him.
00:24:27
Speaker
I would bring my own, I'd buy my own, I'd bring my own.
Incidents of Racial Insensitivity
00:24:31
Speaker
I was like, how do you get your wife? But that's one of those, some African countries, you know, the wife takes care of the husband and the kids and the, you know, takes them apart, just like that. And we talk about food and things. And sometimes when I would bring in Caribbean inspired foods, I'd get looks, you know, people would say stuff, or the kind of like walking, like, next group face and walk out of
00:24:58
Speaker
kind of the canteen areas and the first food sometimes in the office itself. And then as time went on, I'd not want to be in the office that much. It was good. The timing was right. I was off with stonemasons and joiners and other teams working up at Sterling Castle, it was great. So
00:25:24
Speaker
the time I didn't want to be in the office, there was time where I didn't have to be in office, which was great. But sometimes I would have to be in office. So on Fridays, we'd have to work on our portfolio. So for, for clarification, not everybody has to do a portfolio for a trade in Egypt, some people have a certificate based on
00:25:45
Speaker
kind of module to do with museums and the built environment. I didn't have to do that. There were some trainees that worked in the David Livingston kind of building in Glasgow, and they had to do the civic, but me and the other, my other trainee, he, we, both of us, we had to do a portfolio at the end of it. So on Fridays, we would have to leave back in the office, no matter where we were, you know, during the rest of the week, whether it's Stonemason's or Althea would have to be. And that would be kind of hell. Yeah.
00:26:14
Speaker
It'd be hell. I'm not even going to put it mildly. It was awkward. Just just to name a couple of instances. I had my hair pulled by
00:26:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I just, I think it was the best way to kind of introduce this bit. So I had my hair pulled. I was accused of smoking weed. Um, I was told I was being too sensitive. I was weirdly accused that I was trying to flirt with a married man and that I should be with a black partner and not anyone else. Yeah. So that happened over the space of, let me see, six months.
Emotional Toll and Harassment
00:27:02
Speaker
And for most of those instances, alcohol was not involved. And this was from multiple people. This wasn't just... Yeah. Was it just happening in passing? Or is it like... Did it seem to be... You said most of it was no alcohol involved. So I'm assuming it was in the office.
00:27:30
Speaker
Yeah, some of them were in the office. The hair pulling incident. I don't know what was going on there. So I tried not to be too hard on myself. And I'll just say, again, I was trying to make them like me. So there was a Christmas event. And they said, oh, we're gonna do some wreath making and we're gonna have some cider. So this is one where alcohol was involved. We're gonna have some cider and I didn't want to drink any alcohol.
00:27:57
Speaker
I just didn't want to, I didn't want to impair anything. So I thought, no, I'm not going to do it. And I thought, okay, everything can alcohol tab a bit. So I watered it down. So I had a bit of cider, some kind of punch thing, but I watered it down. And I said, Oh, Phoenix, Jenna kind of take part in the wreath maker. I said, No, I'll stay a little bit more work.
00:28:18
Speaker
And, you know, at the end of the night, I'll help you guys tied you. I thought if I tied you, I think I'm one of the team. I think I'm, you know, a team player, they'll think I'm nice and I'm thoughtful and kind. Because before that, so this was in December, months and months ago, I just the aura, the energy, the things we're saying we're doing made me think they didn't like me.
00:28:44
Speaker
So I thought, okay, I'll do this. So we stayed and we chatted and we talked and it was about this life and they're mainly reminiscing about their time together because they've all known each other for years and I'm just this new person that's coming. So I was just smiling and listening and nodding and they were cheering their likes and dislikes of different music and that's it. And then the subject of hair came up. Now at this point I had my hair had grown so my hair was longer.
00:29:08
Speaker
mouth just be low shoulder length. And he had extra curls and what have you but I mainly covered it or I put a hat on. So it just it just it just looks more tidy and kept or sometimes I would wear a scarf. So that that day I think I was wearing a hat it was a bit of a short hat but I was wearing a hat but you could still tell that my hair was kind of like long.
00:29:32
Speaker
again, did not think what would happen next happened. But hey, you know, if it's surprising, so we're talking about hair and one of the other members of staff, she has dreadlocks herself. And this person happens, I should let the listeners know she's not a person Africa remain descent. Hey, if you want to do it, that's fine. It's not to me, I think it's a very thin line between cultural appreciation and appropriation. But that's a topic for another day. And
00:29:59
Speaker
you know, she seemed nice enough, odd, but nice enough. And then they'll talk my head how great hair is. And I swear I was just wanted to die in a hole. I knew they were going to compare her hair to my hair. I knew I've had this before in other organizations or just friends of friends. And they're like, Oh, your hair is different from Phoenix's Phoenix's hair is different from mine. And I thought, Oh, I want to die. Why did I decide to stay over? Why did I decide to stay in the office and help my why why
00:30:31
Speaker
So a member of staff, a senior member of staff, got up to go behind me and get some alcohol because there was two tables like of different drinks and mixes and what have you and a bit of food. She got up to get something to drink and then on her way back I could feel her approaching because you know you can just, it's not a long room or anything. As she was coming back to the table to sit down she pulled my hair. Now
00:30:55
Speaker
Some people might go, Oh, that's a bit silly. Why would she do that? No idea. I didn't say anything directly to her. I didn't do anything to initiate this. Although there shouldn't be any, you know, there's no reason. Yeah. So she pulled my hair. I was in shock. I was in shock. Then it turned to anger. And then I wanted to cry. I'll explain my rationale for that. Some people might go, you should told her what not to do.
00:31:24
Speaker
you should have told it's wrong, you should have done this, you should have done that. Alcohol's flowing. They've already done that. They've already made me feel uncomfortable with the talk about hair and how comparing my hair to this other lady's hair. They've already months before that done things up to that point to make me feel uncomfortable and sad and not want to be in the office.
Impact on Mental Health and Aspirations
00:31:44
Speaker
Right? But this time they physically touched me. My hair is a part of my head.
00:31:51
Speaker
Right. And then I thought this grown woman, not going to be rude to her, but she looked like she's in her fifties or sixties, we've got a family and everything. I was worried if I'd said something and she lost her job or she was on a warning that she would lose her job. The safety of her job at that point, I was worried about. And then I would seem to be a bad person if I said anything. And then the fact that I am a trainee and she's a senior member of staff, been there for years, how on earth is anybody going to listen to me?
00:32:20
Speaker
And of course, elephant in the room. I'm black, she's white. It's as simple as that. So when she did that, I just put my whatever it is I was drinking down, and I walked up into the room, and I started packing my bag. And then I messaged my, my boyfriend, who's my current boyfriend now, and I said, look, you pick me up now. I don't care where you are, you're gonna pick me up now. Because I previously told him, I want to be staying later, we're
00:32:47
Speaker
I'll give you a message to let you know when to pick me up. I said, you need to get here now. So you could hear that I was upset, but I didn't tell him why. So I'm in the office at this point. So I'm away from everybody else at the party. And I just started crying a little bit. I just thought, I can't believe they just did that. What am I going to do? I don't want to be around that person. I don't want to be around those people. I was like, they did things up to that point without alcohol. And I was doing it with alcohol. I'm sorry, but it's kind of
00:33:17
Speaker
Some people say, oh, they're just having a couple of drinks. They didn't mean that. They didn't mean this. But they were doing things up to that point without alcohol. I'm sorry, but to me.
00:33:29
Speaker
it's malicious at that point. It's not a, oh, my bad man, I called you the wrong name, or, you know, I stepped on your toe or something, you know, it's, you physically put your hands on someone and you did something with intent, you pulled the person's hair, number one, it's very childish, it's very high schooly, but it's a grown woman doing it to a younger person. And let's say if you take it outside of the context of an office environment, animal kingdom, that's fighting talk. Yeah.
00:33:59
Speaker
you know, it's like when a guy, you know, brushes his shoulder into another guy fighting talk. I mean, the thing is, it wouldn't be it's not acceptable any in any case. Like, do you know what, like, if that was any normal office, I mean, that is harassment, you know, that was the HR, you know, there's nothing it's nothing, obviously, it's nothing.
00:34:23
Speaker
It is wrong, whoever's doing it, whatever happens, but in particular, it feels as if it was an escalation of the conversation already going on. And that's just shocking, you know? Yeah, it gets even more interesting. Okay.
00:34:45
Speaker
So that was a Friday night. And then the weekend I was spending it with my boyfriend, and I didn't want to think about it. You know, when tragic things happen, or really upsetting things happen, you kind of want to block it out. And I didn't want to ruin the weekend by telling my boyfriend and say, look, it's what happens because he's gonna be sad. And he's gonna be like, yo, what the hell's going on? You know, and then another part of me was trying to wrestle and think, should I say something or should I not? Should I just leave it? There's a part of me that said,
00:35:11
Speaker
Leave it. You don't want to rock the boat. You only got a couple of more months of your training trip left. You might want to reference from these people. Don't rock the boat. And that is a problem. That is a kind of frame of thought that many people of colour think when something goes wrong. I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want to see Bettina as not a team player. You know, I just want to bury my head in the sand and keep my head down. So people go, oh, this person called that person.
00:35:41
Speaker
It's super hard. Some people may not get this. It's super hard when you're a person of color, especially a black person, when something's gone wrong at work.
00:35:52
Speaker
you try to speak up and you get shot down or you all the people spoken up in the past and they say for instance like are you sure and you're not being too sensitive are you sure about this are you not you know have you got a tip on your shoulder no i'm just a human being and someone pulled my hair i'm just a human being and someone said something rude i'm just a human being and someone accused me of smoking weed you know you know yeah yeah it's just yeah yeah
00:36:19
Speaker
It's not acceptable, it really is. But it's shocking how normal this is, you know? That's something that's very kind of worrying is how this didn't take a lot of time, it didn't take a lot of, like there was no build-up, this was it. Do you think that, I mean these are horrifying things that have happened.
00:36:45
Speaker
and I think I've always had the opinion that heritage really does have a problem recruiting and retaining people of colour and I think these are the kind of reasons, these are the stories, these environments that mean that people who want to be part of this kind of sector and that includes museums and archaeology as well, they don't feel comfortable there.
Critique of Heritage Sector's Diversity
00:37:11
Speaker
Do you feel that
00:37:14
Speaker
Do you still have that same dream about entering a museum? Is that still something that you're now fighting for? Is that still the forefront of what you want to do? I'm not gonna lie, my desire for that dream did wafer. You know, some people, you know, you hear these wonderful stories usually in films.
00:37:35
Speaker
overcome, you know, they overcame adversity, and it made them a stronger person. Yeah, but there's that transition, they don't talk about that transition when you're pulling your hair out, sleepless nights, you know, you question everything you're worried about, sabotage, you know, workplace, you're worried about everything. It's a big deal.
00:37:57
Speaker
Because it was December and my training trip was finishing in March the next year, which ended up being actually in March this year, I was just really focused on getting a job and getting out as soon as possible. It really, the things that happened up to that point and on that night really affected my mental health, my emotional, my physical health. I wasn't eating properly.
00:38:22
Speaker
I know I wasn't I wasn't sleeping properly at all. Housing situation wasn't that great. I was dreading going into work. I know I had to go into work every every day. It was horrible. Absolutely horrible. And it's one thing to not get along with your co workers. It's a different kettle of fish when it's because it's the color of your skin, because you're from a different place. You know, it's an added layer of stress. It makes you ill.
00:38:51
Speaker
It really makes you ill a lot, you know.
00:38:54
Speaker
from the shakes to headaches to nausea. And I think we should talk about that a lot. That should be voiced that stress manifest in so many ways. A person waking up in the morning and doing a job dying inside. You just have no idea. And it's not always tears. It's not always shakes and frustrations. And they're all sick. Yes, there were days I was all sick. And one of my managers did say to me, why are you so much she can get it. She didn't get it.
00:39:26
Speaker
And I just thought, you don't, you don't get it. I did try because again, two months before that, you know, I was thinking of leaving the traineeship because it got so bad. And kind of wrote one of my managers a bit of a letter. I'm not going to say what I wrote in the letter, but there's no swearing. I wrote a letter and then I put it into an email format and I sent it to her and I just said to kind of back off, there's so much going on right now. You need to back off.
00:39:56
Speaker
And one of the reasons was there was hardly any support moving from one city to a completely new city. Just no support like African, Caribbean communities or just, you know,
00:40:12
Speaker
just something to help the transition. Even if they had helped, almost like if they had helped you find accommodation, if they had given you pointers in direction of what they're doing. These are really simple steps. And the thing is,
00:40:32
Speaker
If they fix that for someone like yourself, they fix it for everyone. You know what I mean? This is not, this is, this is a situation where, yeah, this is, this is something they could do to like, this is something that doesn't cost a lot of money at all. It's, it's done for, you know, free and it's minimal effort. And I did, yeah, I did talk to some of the managers, two main managers about I did. And it's funny, when people say,
00:41:01
Speaker
or talk about anything we're open to criticism and you should be open to criticism too. Bull. Bull. Again, actions speak louder than words. If you could talk about small things and say, hey, I've got a suggestion for this to make things better, and then take it on board and say, hey, what you said earlier on, so we thought about it and this is this and this. That's fine.
00:41:21
Speaker
But time and again, I was being let down by a variety of people in leadership roles and senior positions time and again, you know, and I went to them and I was like, Oh, we don't have time for that. You know, we're only working for time. You know, you're a big girl, you can find this and that. I found the best I could in an area that I didn't know how anything about.
00:41:42
Speaker
there's so much you can do online, you know, and I wasn't rich, I was a volunteer before I started the trainee trip, so I couldn't be going back and forth with Sterling, doing viewings for buildings, you know, for apartments and stuff. It wasn't possible.
00:41:57
Speaker
You know, I'm sure a lot of people listening to this would probably be in the mindset that they would want to help in some way. And the thing is that what happens is when people like yourself come forward to talk about these kind of things, it's almost like you're asked to solve all the problems yourself. You're asked to kind of like, OK, right. Well, this is a big problem, right? How do we fix it?
00:42:26
Speaker
And I don't want to do that, but I think that what you've brought up, I think the examples you've given are very, very striking and they're not ones that, you know, I think everybody can kind of see, well, you know, from that perspective what the problem is. Is there something
00:42:48
Speaker
Is there a feeling wider that you, that there is in the heritage sector at all, that is there something that could be done quite easily that you feel is just being overlooked because people, is there something, is there a thing that really gets overlooked that could easily be done? Or do you think this is going to take a long time to kind of solve?
00:43:15
Speaker
I don't think it'll take a long time. It's been a while. I've had this dream about working the heritage sector since I was a little girl, you know, and it's come on, leaps and bounds in the sense of
00:43:32
Speaker
community in the heritage sector now, and there's forums and there's groups, you're getting more equality for women, especially women have young kids and families, you know, so that's, I think that's great. That's wonderful. I'm not saying it shouldn't be called different, you know, for all. But it's lacking in melanin, lacking in people of colour, it's lacking in diversity.
00:43:54
Speaker
I am now more facetious when I'm applying for jobs and what I'm telling people because it's one of the things I do as a vocational work that I do is I tell people do not just look at the business when you're going online, when you're looking at a job. Look at the board directors, look at the volunteers, look at the team. Is there diversity?
00:44:19
Speaker
is there diversity? Because if there is not, you might face some of the problems I have. I didn't have that. There wasn't there wasn't much information of who's working in different teams and what have you. I didn't have that. And I wish I did. And this is, again, a funny kind of quote. Now it's funny. At that time, I was in tears. At that time, I didn't want to be there anymore. You know, but one of the managers when we were talking about some of the things that was happening,
00:44:45
Speaker
said well that's the whole point of this traineeship is to climb the cracks to show you know that this is why these traineeships are needed for people of colour that's great and all but i'm being hurt i'm the guinea pig that's being tested on it's you know if you have volunteers of different ethnicities fantastic tip if you have
00:45:09
Speaker
people of different ethicities as board members and as trustees take, if you have people of different age ranges take, do not just go, well, we've got some apprenticeships and we've got some traineeships. What about when the apprenticeship or the traineeship finishes? What are they going to do?
00:45:28
Speaker
yeah, there has to be kind of a route, there has to be a pathway. And this is actually one of the, this is the problem with heritage, is that there are no pathways. If you speak to anybody, they'll say, oh, well, I did like a couple months of this museum, and I, I kind of just accidentally fell into this job, and I did this, and oh, suddenly I'm the, you know, like, there's a lot of this kind of like, you know, falling into things. And
00:45:53
Speaker
I think it poses a problem because like you said people can be in an apprenticeship but then there's no job at the end of it you know so what are they to do you know with all that experience? It's a shame that I keep getting told oh it's funny
00:46:12
Speaker
I was meticulous before I got the training ship, I was really on it, I was like, okay, what organizations would be cool to work at? You know, what's the turnover? Did they keep turning out jobs, you know, in a similar department or in a similar field or similar job titles? So some organizations, they have a really high turnover, don't know if it's the clients, I don't know if some people blamed it on the funding. But if you're able,
00:46:40
Speaker
have jobs over and over and over available over the space of three, four years. And you keep turning people out. That's your problem. You need to start your business model. If the funding is that, well, unreliable, look at funding elsewhere, or change your model, your funding application, you can't just say, well, funding, we can't hire this person, we can't hire that person.
00:47:04
Speaker
I remember I went to a big kind of corporate meeting, very, very big girl there. I went to a corporate meeting at Hez, and everybody was really disgruntled because at that point, the office that I was in, because we had two
Need for Support Networks
00:47:20
Speaker
offices, we had the science office, and then we had the education outreach office, and the education outreach office, they were just large portions of them were really upset because a variety of their teams, people had gone sick,
00:47:33
Speaker
people had left early. That's all I'm going to say to that. Some people started to work part time with a gentleman that was off sick as well for a very long period of time, another lady that was off sick for mental health reasons, another one that was short term sick as well. We were working on a skeleton crew. And we were like, look, we need these people
00:47:56
Speaker
you know, in the office because everybody else is stressed and what have you and other senior members of staff in the building in business and I was just saying, oh, we can't the funding we're waiting for this turnaround waiting for that turnaround. But clearly they didn't even communicate that to the senior members of staff in my office. So what little chance did I have?
00:48:18
Speaker
you know, to be heard, to have my needs and wants listened to. If the people I'm working with are not hearing, you know, not getting the right information of why things have been postponed, why they can't get office supplies, why they can't get key personnel, why the job advertisement, you know, for a specific post in their team, it's not available right now. It's being delayed. If they're not going to get that information of why certain things are not happening, I'm not surprised I wasn't taken care of. You see what I mean?
00:48:48
Speaker
yeah yeah no of course of course it's it's it's yeah it's just it's it's another symptom of the same problem it's yeah it's it's not good at all so i i hope i hope that you are now continuing to apply for positions and places that are in line with the kind of the dream that you have i mean is it is it
00:49:13
Speaker
I mean obviously museums themselves I have always said on this show that museums need to be abolished in their current practice and reformed and reiterated because I feel very much that museums continue on the same cycles again and again and I think we need to have some sort of change, fundamental change you know not just like you said just having a couple trainee ships but at every level
00:49:40
Speaker
we need to have a fundamental change and I'm hoping that that some people will listen to this and listen to other people making their voices heard and understand that this is a part of a process of change you know I don't think I think it's not about a blame game or anything like that this is about making everything better
00:50:04
Speaker
and making an environment better you know that people are in it's not just about oh well if we don't say these words or you know if we don't you know do this then everything's fixed it's it's far more it's far more to it there's it really is
00:50:21
Speaker
It's quite interesting. Sorry, just jump in there. It's quite interesting how when I was looking for support, basically, it was hard, you know, I was looking for support. And then I heard that they have different forums for
00:50:37
Speaker
for like, I don't know, early families, people that adopt dogs and pets and stuff, which is very cute. And for there was an also an LGBT community forum as well. And I was like, I wonder if it's like a person of color kind of form, you know, people of color form. So I got in touch with the equalities manager, I
00:50:55
Speaker
again, on my own initiative, nobody told me, you know. And she says, Oh, we don't actually have anything like that. You can set one up. So I did, I did my best. I was very diligent. I was like, I'm gonna solve this out. I'm gonna do this amongst all the other pressures and my workload and everything else. And Peter, look,
00:51:14
Speaker
Well, it might not be possible. You'll notice I'm not I'm not I'm not missing her at all. Before anybody says, Oh, you know, she put you you know, told you go to the garden path or anything. She says it might not be possible. Because there's less than 30 members of staff in the whole of his identify as a person of color. His has
00:51:39
Speaker
over, I think it's over just over 2000, at that time, members of staff, and only 30 of them were identified as person of colour. So yeah, that won't happen. And then I tried to get more things about
00:52:00
Speaker
black exhibitionists, you know, kind of exhibitionists that kind of work in the museum world, black architects, or people of color architects. I think I tried that. I tried to, you know, work in the collections team and exhibitions team. And also there's no room for it. There's no scope for it. It's just, it's just
00:52:19
Speaker
Constantly, that's not good enough. We can't have that. But we'll get funding to get a person of color, but we're not going to utilize them. We're not going to engage with them. We're going to stifle them. And I just thought, well, why did you hire me? Why do you want me here? If you're going to verbally hurt me with your words, make me feel uncomfortable, pull my hair, tell me that I'm being sensitive, tell me that I'm being rude, that that person should have, you know, they've
00:52:48
Speaker
they've been told off for their behavior in the past, but you didn't protect me. Why am I here? It's just for a diversity take. Some people think, oh, when these positions specifically advertise, you want a person of color or marginalized groups, you know, or it's not right, it's a diversity hire. Well, yeah, but think about the other person, they're coming into a new environment, how hard is it for them?
00:53:08
Speaker
Mm-hmm, totally, totally. No, no, definitely. And I think this all together, as you've clearly demonstrated, is all reasons why we need to process together to make some sort of changes. And finally, what
Advice for Future Applicants
00:53:25
Speaker
would you say to somebody applying to an apprenticeship in the same way? Like, what do you think you would say to them? What's your advice?
00:53:37
Speaker
I don't want to be all doom and gloom. I realize a lot of that was like, oh, negative things happened to me. I'm glad I did it. I don't think I'll ever do it again. My advice to others, do it. Apply. Do as much research as you can, but it's not
00:53:56
Speaker
quite a diverse company? Is it a diverse team? I just want to, you know, feel safe and feel comfortable. Are there any help, you know, for accommodation if you're if you're moving from one city to another city, or you know, is anybody else made the transition? Anybody else similar age ranges? And if you can't do that, just do it on a wing and a prayer, but also don't just apply to one area. I love meter museums. I love them. I love them. I love them. I love them. And I'm going to continue to work in them.
00:54:26
Speaker
But look at what other related sectors are beside it. Look at what other sectors you can go into because you never know where life will take you.
00:54:37
Speaker
I did the trainee trip. I got a job out of it. I'm doing vocational work as well, for marginalised groups, for people in the job sector, for a variety of things I'm working on. And I'm glad I did it. Yeah, some people might think, although that's the only reason why you got the job. Yeah, but also because I persevered. And I think perseverance is good. But you've got to be smart about it. Don't just put all your eggs in one basket. Don't just go well. I know so and so I worked hard in this. And that's all I need to do to get
00:55:06
Speaker
my next role to get my dream career. No, seriously, talk to many fires and you'll achieve many things and you can do whatever you like this. Excellent. And finally, if you is there anything you'd like to plug online that you do the work that you do? Is there any websites or links that we have or I can put them in the show notes? If not, that's okay.
00:55:28
Speaker
That's all right. So I am an outreach officer with my many, many, many roles at St. Mark's Cathedral in Aberdeen. So St. Mark's Cathedral is a wonderful building and there's also renovation work and we're going to have some scaffolding talks coming up from the end of September onwards. It's completely free. So build the input with us. So you just go on to St. Mark's 25
00:55:51
Speaker
Also, I am the creative director for Progress in Dialogue. Progress in Dialogue is an organization that helps to improve the lives of all marginalized communities and be tamping grassroots voices from across the society. So whether you're a travel community,
00:56:09
Speaker
person from a person of colour, someone from a socioeconomic background, we want to build a really healthy kind of environment for people to talk about the issues and problems a bit like this show, actually. And last but not least, I am a career counsellor for a head of the game application to see these services. So you can find me on Facebook, so it's called head of the game applications and CV services. So if you need help with building your CV, working on your key skills, I put lots of quotes on there, I post things about
00:56:40
Speaker
jobs available. But sometimes it shouldn't be boring when it comes to applying for jobs. Sometimes you need something like a positive note, a bit of a positive affirmation to push you through to apply to that next job. So there you
Podcast Conclusion
00:56:52
Speaker
go. That's me. Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing so openly what happened. And I'm hoping it's a message of
00:57:02
Speaker
that to people who are in that position but also to people around them to understand what this perspective is and what could be done to improve things. Thank you. Thank you for having me. But now it's clear, misconception too healthy They told you what you want to hear
00:57:31
Speaker
Why can't you see that the truth was under free? Expose this modern man for me!
00:57:52
Speaker
This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.